gfan – Let me help you break down the too obvious for you. Since you can’t seem to understand the simple things in life.
A friend of my sisters who had a lot of money, Was very grinch like, He would reuse foil for potatoes when he cooked them, If you left a light on in the house you all ate soup for supper,(Honest) Plus he drank heaviley.
He of all people came with the money.
1) The miracle was this man coming to my rescue. I never asked him to come because I knew better.

You tried to make it look like I stole a drunks money. Why? Because it unnerves you that this miracle happened for me but not for you 22 years ago.

On our way home he pulled out a coffee container of iced tea. He said he didn't know why but had a strong urge to drink tea tonight.
2) This Miracle happened when I prayed and told god I would drink tea. The odds of him bringing tea??? another miracle you can’t deal with because of an event 22 years ago.

I was 17 He had to know he would not get his money back. What are the odds of this event taking place?
3) The meaning of this was that as stingy as he was, In his thinking, he would of thought he would never get his money back.

You twisted it in order to make it fit your own selfish need by saying I never paid him back. Which you were once again “WRONG”

So as you can plainly see, you need to lie in order to fulfill your own delusion of a hateful god. all because of an event 22 years ago. You were the atheist 22 years ago. and had you of prayed at the beginning of that morning for protection, you would not of had that terrible event 22 years ago.

I don’t understand why you feel the need to adlib and make false statements. It only prove your own immaturity. Try to discount the miracles without the spin. YOU CAN’T DO IT!!!

WOW!!! Still holding on to that huh?

At least I have a beginning of a stronger faith instead of the ending of a deadend life.

I think you feel you really have something there don't you?
You can't stand the fact that these girls and myself didn't get hurt compared to what happened 22 years ago.

Maybe if you and your family were god loving people you would still be a happy family.

But when you do and create evil, evil things happen to you. Learn to deal with it or change.

Then put this one in there too:

--------------------------
gogreen61

Thr beginning of my faith in a god.
I was in a situation many years ago. Everyone I thought I could count on would not help me.
I prayed to god to help me. I promised god if he got me out of this mess I would drink TEA and not drink alcohol anymore. I needed $5000.00 and I was 17 at the time. Here is JUST ONE of the things that changed my thinking.
A friend of my sisters who had a lot of money, Was very grinch like, He would reuse foil for potatoes when he cooked them, If you left a light on in the house you all ate soup for supper,(Honest) Plus he drank heaviley.
He of all people came with the money.
On our way home he pulled out a coffee container of iced tea. He said he didn't know why but had a strong urge to drink tea tonight.
I was 17 He had to know he would not get his money back. What are the odds of this event taking place?
And now during these hard times I put my direction in the hands of god. To direct my path. To help me make the right decision. And so far I am beating this depression.
The worst of which is yet to come.
God answers everyones prayers who hanestly believe in him. But sometimes his answer is NO.
Science is good but whenever scientist create something that is good for mankind, Mankind in return makes a weapon out of it.
That is all I have to say for now.

Atheists don't read it like anyone does. Lets keep on track here.

You said.Mar 1, 2013 at 9:44 a.m. Where's your response to the issue of why there'd be no history taught if you were in charge of education?

Here is what I actually said.

Feb 22, 2013 at 1:57 p.m. I might do away with some of the history books though.

That is all the proof I need to prove you can have no understanding of the bible. You can't understand a simple sentence on the gazette.

Then I said.
I now understand how you confuse "YOU" with "MANY" Since The word "SOME" to you means "NONE" I get it now.

So when you say you "DON"T" Believe in god, It means you "DO"

I will keep this one for the books. Like you do.

We will keep this one alive for the history books. It proves you need to make up stories to further your cause. Without lies you have nothing.

oneheck......, again, in order for your claim to be true, shouldn't Jesus have said something like:

"Don't try this at home."

But if your claim is true, then you have your work cut out for you because millions of christians do not read and understand the bible like you do. You better get the WORD of "the bible according to oneheck...." out there so you can save their souls.

And in deference to the blogger above, I don't want you soiling up this thread anymore. So switch to the other thread you've started to post on and I'll post there.

As for a more open conversation -not a bad idea- suited for that purpose is a new invention called EMAIL. Give it a try and let's see what happens.

gfan – He was talking to his disciples in a group. He was not talking to the entire world. HIS DISCIPLES!!!!
Peter was what? A DISCIPLE!!!! and he spoke to him what???? ALONE!!!!
You are the one with the understanding problem. You don’t know who the bible is talking to at any given point in time, Do you?

Learn who god, and Jesus, the disciples, and the prophets in the old testament, were talking to. It might help your understanding of the bible. Most likely not. But worth a try.

Stick to science. The bible is over your head…..

And for my 4th post. Why don’t to ask Scott if he will set us up a thread where he won’t shut it down because of your posts?
I would love a one on one where we can both say what we like. How about setting up somewhere else where you are not so protected by an editor?
I think we both know why you don’t have the guts to do something like that. Don’t we?

gfan – your Mar 1, 2013 at 2:14 p.m. post… WHAAAAAAAAAAT????
Your Mar 1, 2013 at 2:10 p.m post… proof I haven’t read the bible??? WHAAAAAAAAAT?????
Are you losing your mind? Is this ignorant and incoherent rhetoric suppose to actually mean something?

What time did HAPPY HOUR!!! Start today for you?

Was the above posts anything but a grasp of diversion for the unintelligent comments you made?
Slow down gfan the cliff is to close.

4 posts??????????????????? wow.

And given your reading comprehension problems ????????????????????????????

Look at your post below.

oneheck......, try to "you" your way out of this one:

Philippians 4:6-7 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

oneheck......, here's more proof that you haven't read your bible:

Matthew 7:7 ”Ask, and it will be given to you seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it

oneheck....., since my last post was too long for your attention span, I'm pasting an important sentence that probably didn't register on your consciousness:

State your choices on what should be taught in your theocratic school in which you demand that students stay ignorant of real science.

oneheck....., again read your bible. Where do you have agreement on how the word "you" is used? Nowhere.

And given your reading comprehension problems and your indolent attitude toward learning -which reflect your school days that you so strangely longed for on another thread- you are in a bad place to evaluate anyone else.

Your backpedling on the who wrote the horror in the bible reveals that you've been working from emptiness and hostility all along. And most of all, it reveals that you're incoherent.

Anyone with any brains would understand that to arbitrarily eliminate any history is to not teach history period. State your choices on what should be taught in your theocratic school in which you demand that students stay ignorant of real science. I know it's going to be difficult for you since you've never read anyway. TV.

I suggest before you take-on your book, you should try reading one first.

I now understand how you confuse "YOU" with "MANY" Since The word "SOME" to you means "NONE" I get it now.

So when you say you "DON"T" Believe in god, It means you "DO"

I will keep this one for the books. Like you do.

gfan- Here is what your scientific brain heard..

Mar 1, 2013 at 9:44 a.m. Where's your response to the issue of why there'd be no history taught if you were in charge of education?

Here is what I actually said.

Feb 22, 2013 at 1:57 p.m. I might do away with some of the history books though.

That is all the proof I need to prove you can have no understanding of the bible. You can't understand a simple sentence on the gazette.

oneheck........, look at your comment after I asked about the history issue. What were you doing.

Where's your response to the issue of why there'd be no history taught if you were in charge of education?

gfan- I see you are enjoying HAPPY HOUR!!! a little too much. Since I don't drink. You obviously have to be talking about yourself.

When you have no battle left you get unintelligent. Don't you?

oneheck......, the Moody Bible Institute is doing a study on the kind of christians it won't allow to enroll.

Happy Hour!!!!!!

oooohh-- Is that going in the almighty gfans book? Do you ever listen to yourself? You are a joke. ONE BIG JOKE!!!! LOL
You ask Ridiculous questions and what do you get? The truth that faith in god is stronger than the ignorance of atheism. GOT IT?

OK, dream on. You would only be in charge of a religious school -and students who would choose evolution over god would be tossed out. Got it. That's going in the book.

Now what about this business of no history being taught in your school? What's up with that?

He/she wouldn't be a problem child regardless. And they already know their god.So they wouldn't be asking the question. There is no "What if" Because people who "truely" know their god do not have doubt.

What method would you and the other students use to get the problem students to know their god?

Read below. You are asking the same question over. I said- My students "WOULD" know their god. Thats what you are not understanding. So that question wouldn't need to be answered.

If by chance one of them were brainwashed into questioning their faith. I think the other students and myself would be able to help them out of that nonsense.

People that know their god are not going to ask that question. That is the end of that story.

So it would have to be a religious school that didn't allow the teaching of evolutionary biology.

Or, if it was a public school, you would change it to a religious school and toss out evolutionary biology.

No matter which kind of school, what would you do to students who rejected god for any reason?

My students "WOULD" know their god. Thats what you are not understanding. So that question wouldn't need to be answered.

If by chance one of them were brainwashed into questioning their faith. I think the other students and myself would be able to help them out of that nonsense.

Repeating: You're in charge, remember?

Science looks for cause and never finds god or Jesus.

What if students press the point of the conflict? What if they side with science?

Would they be penalized on tests for not attributing cause to god?

I would tell them that science is not looking for god and that god in in each one of us.

But then I would tell them that I just received notice that I will be fired for mentioning the word god in school.

I would explain that the atheist woman who didn't want her child to pray in school has established her anti-Christ belief and therefore we are not allowed to mention something that they say does not exist.

Then I would ask. Why do you all suppose the Anti-Christ would care if you believe in god and a soul?

oneheck......, the issue has nothing to with the students who don't ask the questions, it has to do with the ones that do.

How would you respond? Explain how god and science work together since science never finds god as the cause of anything.

The problem with your question is this. The children that know their god would not ask the question. But would still continue down the path to understanding god and science and how they both work together.

oneheck....., we've been talking about an educational scenario in which you're in charge. Remember?

I would leave the bible lessons to activities outside public education. However if a student mentioned the disparity between evolutionary biology and the bible, I would say that science attempts to investigate cause and that science has never discovered a god to be the cause of anything.

Now, back to what you would do if you were in charge.

gfan- Don't patronize me. Why don't you show me how it's done? Be my teacher oh wise one.

I don't need to prove anything to you. What is your take on the above statements?

What did I just expose about myself?
my inability to come up with an intelligent answer for you?
Or my unwillingness to be patronized by someone who considers themselves the scholar of life?

Here is a hint. Take note of the tone.

oneheck......., demonstrate how intelligently you can write by stating what you would do when the books on evolutionary biology caused students to question the bible's "explanation" as to the origin of humans.

gfan- I said---The bible that man translated (Most likely an atheist) To turn people like you away from god.

I suppose if I were on tv I would write a more intelligent comparison. But the meaning would be the same.

oneheck....., would you be willing to repeat your comments below on national TV? Or are you close to trying to convince yourself that you're kidding?

oneheckofaguy
Feb 25, 2013 at 4:27 p.m.
Suggest removal

Beside a said an atheist "Probably" Wrote it.

oneheckofaguy
Feb 25, 2013 at 4:26 p.m.
Suggest removal

poo- If the books you read said to you that humans evolved from sea weed. You would scratch your head and say. That don't sound right.

Same thing with me. The atheist is anti god. They need the bad stuff to prove there is not a loving god.

So it stands to reason they wouldn't put any good in there.

Beside a said an atheist "Probably" Wrote it.

poo- If the books you read said to you that humans evolved from sea weed. You would scratch your head and say. That don't sound right.

Same thing with me. The atheist is anti god. They need the bad stuff to prove there is not a loving god.

So it stands to reason they wouldn't put any good in there.

I'll answer your question - I have done a fair bit of reading on the subject.

Did you want to answer my question to you Oneheck?

Which one of you (If any) has done the research and on evolutionary biology?

Again - I can state there is no god - just as we can both state with confidence there is no Tooth Fairy, remember how we reached that conclusion earlier?

How did you determine that the sources of the good stuff in the bible were "real" and not also placed there by atheists?

oneheck......, the research and books on evolutionary biology re: human evolution disagree with your position. How would you handle the conflict?

Pro- There were people way back when that recorded events and claimed it to be true and documented it.
Did you see anyone land on the moon? Did you wittness real images of mars? No. But you accept it as fact based on testemony and a few pictures.

I know you have said that you have no proof. But you boldly stated here that there is no god.

Oneheck - that is the exact reason why the burdon of proof for the existance of things is on the person claiming something exists.

LOL - oneheck -loved the gotcha moment when you made me admit I could not prove that god does not exist.

I should point out though that I say I cannot prove that god does not exist on a regular basis, in fact I started this line of thought with that idea.

Do you understand my point that the human mind can imagine anything - and you can not disprove the existance of any of those things?

Just the humans.

So you would tell students that shared DNA in all life on this planet doesn't mean that species evolve into other species, including humans?

I would ask how could that be possible since god created that DNA.

oneheck......, what happens when one of the evolutionary biology students mentions that all life forms on the planet share some DNA -in contrast to the biblical claim as to how humans were created?

gfan- I suppose I would have to teach that over time we did evolve into a more civilized human but at the beginning of creation god created all things.
Then I would have them explain what came first. The baby, or the mom. but you need the dad and mom to make the baby. So I would set them on a task to figure this out with all the tools that science has to offer.

That proof would settle it once an for all. But I will not accept the "theory" regardless how many of them came up with the same idea.

I want proof of what came first. Until then. It will be the god answer even though I can't prove that.... After all, I'm giving the grade.

oneheck......, good choice on science. I'm wondering, though, how the science of evolutionary biology would be taught in the context of bible teachings.

oneheck...... the last half of your last post is worthy of discussion. Later.

gfan- No. I'm not in charge of telling you when to use that term. I was merely point out when it is more correctly used. The "we" indicates the sound of a mouse.. You know we we we. It's just mor funny that way.
A mouse does not go everyone everyone everyone. Thus ends the humor lesson.

Now that that is out of the way. You did not ask me a question at 10:19am

I just figured the proper response to all questions is "I already answered that questions" I just said it without insulting your intelligence at the end as seems to be the norm.

I neither said love. Just kindness.

No I would not just have the bible in school. I would teach its morals though. Science is very well needed so I would keep that. I might do away with some of the history books though.
I would keep math. and things kids need in the real world. But I would highly stress the morals of the bible.

When I was growing up we could talk about god in school, We said one nation under god, and stuff like that. And no one slaughtered each other on the playground like the godless do today.

oneheck....., and now you're in charge of how "You got a mouse in your pocket?" is used?

And you've shown me nothing but love and kindness? LOL. Are you trying to wrongly influence someone else?

Respond to my 10:19a.

If you were in charge of education in this country, the bible is the only book you would allow to be read, right?

gfan- I answered your questions already in my posts many times. As far as hostile? That was written at the same time you was writing yours. Look at the time stamp.

When someone uses the term "WE" that is when you use the saying "Do you have a mouse in your pocket" It just goes good together.

My last post was not in any way hostile. It was, Matter of fact. Thats all. You love to point out flaws you fnd in peoples character. When they do the same. It's considered hostile to you. Why is that? I have neither called you any names nor been rude to you so far. I have showed you nothing but kindness even though you have tried to provoke me.

I am still being civil and non-hostile.

oneheck......, tally up the time and effort you spend claiming I'm hostile.

You could have responded to my last post in a civil manner but you had to write something hostile instead. (And who's "everyone," you got a mouse in your pocket?)

Kindly respond to my last post before this one.

pro- You are correct I cannot prove there is no santa. And with that, You just admitted you cannot prove there is no god. Thank you!!

Finally were getting somewhere.

gfan- I Familiarized myself with the defense mechanism of projection. And you do use it to the best of your ability. Thanks for pointing it out.

Now you can see the hostilities in your posts.
What happened when you said you would be civil? Where did it go? Your crutch is your anger. Get past the anger and become civil.
Why can't you do it? It is as simple as eating apple pie. Just stop all the anti-social antics and become more human.

When you were a child. you acted like a child. But when you became an adult, you were to put away thos childish things. PUT THEM AWAY!!!
Are you really that blind in your own self conceit that you don't see it?

As many times as everyone has pointed it out to you but it never sank into your brain.

That is what too much study does to the person. You become what you read and the books are your only refuge. Books won't help you when you need a humans help. And I guarantee you, If someone ever had to help you you would curse them for it. It's you antisocial behavior. I can take all the stuff you throw at me because I know you can't help yourself. It had to be sad and lonely in a bubble.

If I may add: Santa Claus is based on a real person known as Saint Nicholas. Just like Jesus Christ (claimed to be god or a god mainly by people who didn't know him) was based on the the itinerant Palestinian rabbi who was named Jesus.

Being a jewish rabbi the real Jesus taught the Hebrew bible (which came to be known as the Old Testament). Therefore what the early christians (not to confused with the historical followers of Jesus the man) wrote much later in the New Testament that conflicted with the Old Testament can't possible be the words of Jesus the man.

(Though for brevity I will refer to Jesus the man and Jesus Christ [the fictionalized version of Jesus the man] as merely Jesus. Just like I shorten the term "belief in god" to merely god.)

The point is onheck - you cannot prove there is no Santa. Nor can you prove there is no invisable unicorn floating just our of detectable range between Venus and Mercury.

Man has an imagination, just because there is an idea doesn't have anything to do with if that idea matches what is real.

pro-And there is no proof that there is no god which you conceded way back.

To know there is proof that there is no god would be in a sense to know everything. And you just recently said there is no god.

And yes I read that and this is not a copy and paste.

I don't dismis the hindu god. You do. There is only one god but there are many names. I'm sure you read that somewhere.

Like it said. Jesus was documented by adults to be real. Santa was taught to children most likely to take away from the importance of Christ.

Just like the easter bunny was added to take away the importance of Christs death. Who do you wonder started those holidays?

You cannot prove there is no god. Since god is the creater of all things even your science cannot prove it. Though you do keep trying.
Let me know when it happens.

Oneheck - you were comparing and contrasting your god and santa - and which myth was more or less credible.

That was not the point we were discussing. There is no evidence for your supernatural god just as there is no evidence for Santa.

To further my point - how did you come to the knowledge that the Hindu god(s) are not real while yours is? We dismiss Santa and the Hindu gods just as easily as we dismiss yours. There is not a reason to believe in it.

In fact we both agree that the bible is not a credible source of information. In fact the coversation was not about if jesus was a man - it was if the god myth was true.

Also you lack faith in Santa - thats why you can't see how he is able to walk on water, turn water to wine, feed lots of people with very little fish, heal the sick and cast out demons. Oops I mean deliver presents to children around the world in one night.

Familiarize yourself with the defense mechanism of projection.

You have NEVER said anything on this thread that refutes anything. You dance around things, you tiptoe at best around any question.

You can't prove it to be wrong. Your ill attempts at trying to discredit me with my past only "Exposes" the fact when you have nothing you act out in a hostile manner.

The fact that you still cannot act civil is more proof that you NEED god in your life. You are the example of someone planding a seed in sand. It never will grow and never will mature.

I may have acted like a child when I was a child but you continue to act as a child well into your adult years. You should have grown by now but without proper rearing you lack in any type of human compassion toward other people.

It also reveals what happened to you those many years ago and why you refuse to talk about your religion.

Why don't you stop using the dead baby theory and use the real reason you don't believe and the real reason you find it hard to let my past go?

oneheck....., you just posted more proof that you don't read and/or can't read. I just said that I already read what you posted before you copy and pasted it..

And, anything in your two posts that needs to be be refuted has already been refuted numerous times on this site. You're spinning your wheels because you're tapped-out.

So discount it then. Prove it wrong. You cant.

gfan - The reason you won't read it is because it explains away your views and you can't counter attack it. It's solid. And yes little buddy. I did read it. And your right. I won't read any books you reccommend.

oneheck......, at your age and given how well you behaved when you were a student, you should be able to express and explain something as important as your belief in your own words by now. I will not read your copy and paste because just by skimming it I know I've already previously read it elsewhere and because I'm sure that you didn't read much of it.

And I'm also sure that if I recommended a book for you to read (or a part of that book) you wouldn't read it. You are primed to respond with the stultifying mentality of: Believing anything in a book other than the bible is the same as believing what's in the bible and therefore it has no more foundation than the bible, right?

Finally, it really comes down to whether or not either one can reasonably be proven to exist. Very few people deny the historic reality of Jesus, and though millions of children affirm the existence of Santa, we know well that the minds of children are not capable of differentiating between fantasy and reality -- particularly when the parents they are trusting tell them Santa is real.
For an atheist to reject Jesus' existence based on arguments found against Santa Claus demonstrates the inability for the atheist to distinguish between historical, verifiable documents and known, constructed childrens' stories. Jesus was an actual historical figure. Santa, of course, is not.
And yes. This was copied and pasted.

Fourth, the writings concerning Jesus exhibit a historical, cultural, religious, and political context with verifiable names, events, and places being an integral part of the record of that context and reality. Santa Claus stories do not contain any such integral contextualization, except to state that there is a North Pole and that there are cities and countries where Santa visits at night.
Fifth, the facts are that parents buy, wrap, and deliver presents to children, and we know of no documented occurrences where Santa Claus has been caught breaking and entering, tripping home alarm systems, caught on film, vanishing up a chimney, and riding a sleigh through the air pulled by flying reindeer. This latter point is worth a comment, since we additionally have no evidence at all that reindeer can fly. This further adds to the irrationality of the Santa Claus story. Additionally, if a large sleigh (sufficient to carry millions of toys) approached the Washington D.C. area (surely there are at least some good children there), we would expect to hear of military fighter jets being scrambled to intercept the intruder. No records of this have yet surfaced.
Sixth, given that the gospel accounts were written by individuals who knew Jesus personally (or were under the guidance of those who knew Him), that the gospels are historically accurate, superbly transmitted to us through the copying method, we can then assume at the very least that Jesus was an actual historical person. But, we have no hard evidence to establish the validity of Santa Claus. We have found no reindeer tracks on the roofs of millions of snow-covered homes on Christmas Eve. There are no video accounts of Santa roaming throughout peoples' homes. We know of no flying reindeer, and no one has yet established how Santa can live at the North Pole for hundreds of years without being detected -- particularly in this technologically advanced culture. Add to that the lack of Santa Disciples going about the world, risking their lives, being ridiculed by religious and political adversaries, writing inspirational text, performing miracles, etc., and you really don't have much evidence at all that Santa exists, except in the minds of children.

First of all, Jesus is presented as an historical figure by reputable people in both secular and sacred historical writings. Santa Claus is simply presented as a fictional character.
Second, Jesus is presented as a real person who claimed to be divine and who performed miracles. These accounts are attested to by reputable witnesses and have been transmitted to us reliably; the New Testament documents are 99.5% textually pure. Santa Claus is intentionally, and knowingly, presented as a fictional character who lives at the North Pole.
Third, the intention of the gospel writers was to convey the physical reality of Jesus to responsible adults, whereas the accounts of Santa are intended to entertain the wild imaginations of children. This is why the vast majority of healthy, mentally competent adults do not believe in a real person known as Santa who can travel through air being pulled by several flying reindeer, who can carry in his sled enough presents for all the good children in the entire world, and who can descend and ascend through chimneys even though he is quite overweight.

oneheck........, your last comment is so incredibly lacking of intelligence that as Professor g-fan I order you to sit in the corner and wear the pointy hat.

And take your flimsy religious "spirit" with you.

Heck - there is no god. I know this like you and I know there is no Santa Clause or Easter Bunny.

Neither of us can prove the nonexistance of any of these three entities. Point is there is not a shred of evidence for a creator god or Jesus Christ in particular.

gfan if you claim there is no god then you must know it. If you know it then I guess you are god. WOW what a title. So since you know everything why waste your time here? You should teaching a class entitled "Know everything"

Have you given it much thought? Think of that.
Professor gfan. The man who knows everything.

oneheck....., your post means you think I've been civil amost a hundred percent of the time. Think about it. Thanks.

And the existence of god: Don't you remeber what we've been saying? Why not?

And do you now understand the defintion of scientific theory as it pertains to evolution?

Okay, here's a quick refresher: God is supposed to be supernatural. There's a million dollar reward if someone proves and demonstrates the supernatural. No one's collected a penny of that reward.

And thousands of babies die each day.

The burden of proof is on you because you're making the claim. Your failure to satisfy that burden is proof against your claim.

Gfan- you asked. ......, how come you waver between pro and I being the same person and different people? Is it your mood swings?

I realized that you are incapable of having a civil conversation. So it only makes sense that you could not be pro. No matter how hard you try you “HAVE TO” and I do mean you have to cut people down at some point in the conversation. It is literally impossible for you to carry on a conversation in any way, shape or form. Therefore you cannot be pro also. And he answered a question directly. That is another trait you are incapable of. Now do you understand?

pro-You said there is no god. You know this how?

And stop embarassing yourself with the emotional blackmail.

oneheck......, how come you waver between pro and I being the same person and different people? Is it your mood swings?

And we've been through this numerous times. Here's the defintion for "theory" as it pertains to evolution:

"A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and do not make apodictic propositions; instead, they aim for predictive and explanatory force."

pro. Darwin came in the 1800 or 1850 and had a theory. That is all it is. A theory. What inspired his knowledge?

He spoke it and the atheists took it as gospel.

This is what I got from wiki so I will need to read a book if I can find one for free. I wouldn't spend money on something that goes against my belief. I will only read it to understand where you are coming from.I doubt if it will change my mind.

Gfan- If you would use one tenth of the tact pro uses you would get a lot farther in your poor attempts to communicate.

Because of pro I will give Darwin a try.

Oneheck - you do seem interested in this topic. You should really read up on Darwin. I find that the best way to make sure that my view of reality is "real." is to read the source material for the opposing point of view.

Would war end if everyone were atheist? No but many of the current day conflicts would not exist. Much of the misery in the world would not be present. Human scientific progress would not be hindered the imagined desires of an imaginary being.

By the way, your comment about reading reveals that you're afraid of it. You think you already know everything there is to know. And you don't want anything disturbing that thought.

oneheck....., the snapping you feel is in your head. It happened when your ruse here was exposed. You're not really participating in a discussion. You can't participate because you have nothing of substance to contribute. You can't even talk about the bible intelligently.

How can someone your age not have read Darwin? At least some of those thousands of hours you've spent staring at TV would have been better spent educating yourself. As it is, your indolence has kept you as the student you were back in grade and high schools. And you know it.

You are only here in a sad attempt to salvage the flimsiness of your so called belief.

gfan- I would "NEVER" read Darwin if I thought it would make me an unsocialite as yourself.

Let me know the other books you've read. I still think you should read books on trying to be human.

Why did you stop being civil? I'm still trying to figure out what triggered you to fall off the deep end again.

Everything was ok but then you snapped. Is it the atheist way? or can't you communicate without the discord?

oneheck......., more proof that you're dissembling. Why haven't you read Darwin? Not reading Darwin has left you extremely ignorant about humans and the world. Anyone with any sense should have read it by now.

Learn how to read. You have a comprehension problem.

At least attempt to read Darwin.

gfan- Why don't you stop trying to cut me down every chance you get? Either talk right or shut up... This conversation was between me and pro. NOT YOU!!!

I have read the entire bible. Never read Darwin. You love to think you know everyone.

So what you are saying is this. If all there was were atheists there would be no war. Right?

If you can't answer the question. Go away!!

oneheck......, humans are naturally competitive. Humans created god as a way of justifying an extreme form of competition know as war.

I and other atheists have repeatedly said this on this site: The bible writers expressed all forms of human nature couched in the claim of a nonexistent supernatural being. They did this for the purpose of controlling people. One example of this control is: to convince people that they do not need wide knowledge of the human experience and of the world.

You are an example of that control when you attribute god's concern for you as higher than his concern for babies who die everyday. You are using god to justify what you are -including your reluctance to broaden your education.

You haven't read Darwin and you haven't read the bible.

oneheck......, the wars we've been recently involved in were started by believers in the Abrahamic god. The same god of christianity. Jesus was a rabbi who taught belief in the Abrahamic god, his father.

9/11 was committed by believers in Jesus' father.

Agreed. But there are wars without it being a religious war.

Are you saying without religion all wars would end?

Or would man find something to kill one another for?

We make war with out groups and cooperate with our own group. Religion exacerbates this problem. We as a species need to move beyond this type of superstitious faith based groupings.

As you can see in the bible man cooperates with his own tribe, but then wipes out the next because they are not worshiping the same imaginary sky god. You see this in present day behavior as well, its a waste.

Look at the violence in the world today, you will find that most of it hangs on someone's imaginary friend not being like someone else's imaginary friend.

pro- Thank you for the answers.
Does man do things by nature? You answered yes.
Isn’t it our nature to fight for land and other thing? We have been doing it as long as recorded history.
And it has not all been about god. So why wouldn’t war be our human nature?

gfan- What you failed to do "Once again" was answer the question. Unless you're Darwin. Are you Darwin? You gave me Darwins answer but I asked for gfans answer.... ok We know we will never get that so lets move on to the next point.

My one question would be followed by another question. The simple answers are so you won't be able it squirm out of your response. Which you just tried to do. Unless of coarse you are Darwin. Are you Darwin? Never mind that question.

And unless you are now refering to pros answers your entire Darwin comment makes no sense at all. But thanks for the effort.

At least pro answered directly... Now I can ask another question to pro based on those answers wwhich will require a more lengthy explination. If you were not lacking in social skills you would understand what I am talking about. But since you can't even answer the simplest questions, I see no reason to ask you any more questions. But thank you for your time and for the couple of days you tried very hard to stay civil. It was almost pleasent for awhile.

oneheck...., now the issue has been in addressed in both possible ways.

Respond.

oneheck......, that's not a bad answer. But not for the reason you suppose. It's often claimed that Darwin determined that we're descended from apes. But at times he only said that he believed in ape ancestry, but he never stated that he found proof of it. Therefore your requirement of a yes or no answer doesn't really get to the point, and is therefore an invalid demand, right?

The problem you caused for yourself with your improper question is more proof that you lack a base of real knowledge to work with. That lack of knowledge is what makes your weird "belief" so vulnerable to being widdled-down, and made to look ridiculous.

Back to Darwin. He did say, though, that humans and apes have a common ancestor. So, oneheck...., the yes or no question to you becomes:

Do you believe that humans and apes have a common ancestor?*

*You have my permission to elaborate.

For what its worth I will follow your instructions:

Does man do things by nature?
Did we evolve from apes?
Is war just our human nature?

No elaboration needed just yes or no please. Lets see if you can answer directly.

Yes, no, no.

Gfan why do you always appear after pro?
Why not answer the last couple of questions you wefe asked?

They are yes and no questions. Why cant I ask for a simple yes or no question? Is that too easy for you? If you cant make your answers confusing does that mean you wont answer?

Maybe you feel threatened by simple answers?

What ever your reason. Just give it a try. Let me show you how its done.

Oneheck.. Do you believe we evolved from apes....No....
See? Its simple if you apply the effort.

And, oneheck......, when you were an exemplary student did such questions only require yes or no answers?

But if you like that idea so much, answer your own questions with yes or no.

Why are you telling someone they can't elaborate when answering a question?

Pro- I have answered your last question many time. I choose to.
So you will answer all questions directly? Ok
Does man do things by nature?
Did we evolve from apes?
Is war just our human nature?

No elaboration needed just yes or no please. Lets see if you can answer directly.

Oneheck - are you sure the only reasoning atheists have is that babies die? I am sure I pointed out many more horrors on the planet and many that were a direct result of people acting on faith instead of reason.

You god's invisability and undetectability would also be two very large clues that there is no god.

In the post I am referring to you also mentioned inability to directly answer your direct questions - are there any I have not directly answered? As you know I would be happy to go back and make sure I have answered fully, just let me know which question.

You mention that you determined that christ was real because you heard it the same way I heard it? The bible would have been the source of your second hand information and those people that told you about christ would have most likely believed in hell. How did you select from those people's ideas and determine that christ was real but hell was not?

gfan-Why do you feel the need to try to provoke people to anger? It’s not very adult like.

nice try!! keep em commin.

Yes, oneheck......, stay civil. Don't get banned again.

I'm not ticked-off. It only seems that way to you because you've been called-out on your incivility of pretending to engage in a debate without actually participating. You keep making up stuff to hide your side of the issue.

What was your downfall today? Did someone on another thread tee you off?

gfan-Just looking for a way to keep you civil. As you notice I have kept civil. You on the other hand need turmoil to keep going. I'm still here. I will stop talking you you and you only if it comes to that. It's your choice. See, even you get to choose!!

Gfan you said- They operate with the belief that they know everything there is to know about the world and the human experience. You have them confused with an atheist scientist.

Looking for an excuse to bail goes along with the widdle-down process.

The only reasoning the atheists have is their idea that babies die, therefore there is no god. I suppose if I lived my life on huffington post I would feel and believe the same way the atheist does.

You only avoid scrutiny because you cannot answer a direct question with a direct answer. Then when you read someone’s post you put your own thoughts and words in place of theirs when you comment on it. The fact that I did not let the conversation get all muddied up by your attempts to spin the conversation has clearly got you into a tizzy. Come back to the conversation when you calm down and can act civil. If that is possible, we’ll see you later.

oneheck....., admit it. You keep adjusting your belief in an attempt to make yourself immune to all that's horrible about christianity and the criticism it deserves.

It's a sort of: "I can't be wrong about anything." way of thinking. You made up your own christianity. You're an example of why there's more than 40,000 denominations. People keep branching off because on some level they know that there's something wrong with the whole thing.

They operate with the belief that they know everything there is to know about the world and the human experience.

gfan- I was wondering when you would show your ugly side again. Thanks for the little time you acted civil. I know it must have been hard for you.

oneheck......., like a Darwinian adaption mechanism in force you survive by continually launching everything about your belief that doesn't stand up to the reasoning of atheists.

Your belief has been widdled-down to a murky state of near nonexistence that has convinced itself that it's immune to scrutiny.

Dream on.

No wonder there's so much christian-on-christian hatred: You are all competing with each other for top spot.

I was trying to be funny... I heard it the same way the rest of the world heard it. The same way you heard it.

Remember, I pick and choose what to believe.

Remember the snake handler? He believed god would protect him from the snake.

That is until he got bit and died. I would choose not to do that.

I would choose not to follow the catholic faith.
I choose not to believe in hell
I choose to believe in a soul and a spirit.
I just choose what makes sense.

I know that the spirit makes no sense to you. But it does to me and so I choose to believe it. I am a fool only to those who believe in nothing.

If there is a hell, I doubt if I'll burn for not believing in it. Maybe I will be praised above all others because I changed my way without the fear of punishment. One never really knows. If I hurt someone because of my belief then maybe I will choose not to believe anymore. But I doubt that will happen.

Many of my Christian friends are like puppets on a string. They are told what to think and how to think. I choose not to be like them.

I heard it on tv.

Oneheck - not to interupt but again I have to aswk - you have discounted the bible as a credible source of information yet you seem certain of your knowledge of its main character. You state christ is love, and other traits of jesus - how did you come about this knowledge? How do you even know his name, let alone how he behaves?

gfan- My morality does not come from my belief. I am just as good as an atheist. My belief in god means I have a soul. Since I don’t believe in hell there is no punishment at the end of my days in order to force me to be moral.
And the atheist would say it was a coincidence if all the children stopped dying for one day.

oneheck......, re: proof: what proof do you have for that million dollars? Make a world wide announcement that you're going to pray to god to stop all children from dying on a given day. If it happens, I think you'll have a rightful claim to the million bucks.

oneheck......, isn't what god is doing with you why you're here commenting? I conduct myself morally which means atheism needs no explanation -morality is grounded in reality. It's your position that your morality comes from your belief. That belief comes with a lot of baggage: the immorality of the bible which you are attempting to claim wasn't written entirely by believers. And that leaves you at great odds with millions of other christians. It seems those facts would leave you with plenty to say.

And by the way, isn't it christian to spread the good news?

Gfan. What god is doing with me would be as personal to me as you not revealing what religion you used to be is personal to you.

Why would you want to know that anyways ?

There is a one million dollar reward for proof of god. Correct?
What proof would suffice?

Gfan. What god is doing with me would be as personal to me as you not revealing what religion you used to be is personal to you.

Why would you want to know that anyways?

Onheck - sorry for the confusion - you asked if I had a problem with the new testament - I replied that yes indeed I do - the New Testament is where instead of just slaughter the biblical god introduces eternal torture via Hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvxBqvd4_...

When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
whatever my lot, thou hast taught me to say,
It is well, it is well with my soul.

Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
let this blest assurance control,
that Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
and hath shed his own blood for my soul.

My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!

And, Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight,
the clouds be rolled back as a scroll;
the trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend,
even so, it is well with my soul.

And, oneheck......., why does it matter if you used the word "inspire" or not? Isn't god inspiring you? Because if he is, then, it doesn't matter who used the word, right? So the question remains: If god isn't inspiring you, what is he doing with you?

oneheck....., what is god doing with you?

Gfan- I never said I behave like god is inspiring me. I don’t write in secret code. Nothing is hidden amongst my words. So show me where you interpreted that I said that.

Pro- Once again. I never mentioned hell in any way, shape or form of a question. I did however make a statement about the new testament. If you 2 would stop putting your own thoughts and words into what you think I said rather than what I said, I think this would go a lot better and smoother.

Take what I say at face value and stop with all the confusion. It’s unproductive.

OneheckFeb 18, 2013 at 4:14 p.m.
: So you must be ok with the New Testament? It's not full of men saying god said to kill.

You also wrote: I believe in Christ because he is about love.

Where did you get your information?

oneheck........, you behave like god is inspiring you? Maybe if it were possible to put belief in the best light we could say that about Mother Theresa (I mean her bogus image). Is god inspiring you when you watch TV, and when you decide "his words" are written by atheists?

Pro- What was my question about hell? Alzheimer is kickin my butt lately. I don’t see and seriously don’t remember a question on hell.

I believe in Christ because he is about love.

Oneheck - I mention hell in response to your questions about the old testament.

Interesting that you believe that atheists have rewritten this holy book to make god out to be a monster. Is your point that most of the religious leadership through history has been atheist? Could it also be true that the entire Jesus thing is a scam?

Did atheists also rewrote the other holy books as well?

Gfan- You said my last 2 comments didn’t make any sense.
You said-In your 4:29 post- Where are the precise words from god that cause you to behave the way you do?
To which I replied-How do I act… Sorry. I should have said, How do I “behave”? My bad.

My 3:38 post – I explain how I know what god thinks. I also explained how an atheist would have rewritten the bible until it turns god into a monster (But not in those exact words) that is why I said in my 5:53pm post that you missed the point.

Pro – You said. As far as spirit worship - who cares as long as that irrational believe doesn't cause you to take any action in the real world?

So if I believe in a spirit that loves, you wouldn’t want my love to take action in the real world? You wouldn’t want me to show love? Very interesting.

Then once again you go on about this hell that man invented as if it were from god. You keep referring to the same thing I have been objecting to. There is no hell. So why keep on with the “Burn in hell” stuff when I said there was no hell?

You keep arguing a fact that even I don’t believe in. Like I said before. Man put it in there to control you. Even to fool you into believing there is no god. And it has worked, at least for atheists.

Your last two comments make no sense.

You are doing the same thing the bible writers did. You make it up as you go along. You are only revealing how you personally think period. You are revealing your wish that everything should be exactly the way you want it to be. You are doing this by attempting to take control over what "god" is and what "god" thinks. That's what the writers did.

How do you know what god wants or thinks?

and how do i act?

gfan you missed the point.

The christian god is just as unbelievable as all of the others.

As far as spirit worship - who cares as long as that irrational believe doesn't cause you to take any action in the real world?

In the new Testament - hell is introduced - I will be burned alive for all of eternity in a fire that will never be quenched. That should tip christians off right there. The worst thing you can ever do is not believe and worship this invisable, undetectible deity. If you fail to believe he will burn you forever, also he is all loving, and all knowing so he knows exactly why I don't believe and how exactly I came to the logical conclusion that god is make believe, yet he will burn me forever.

The ego on this biblical god and his interest in roasted meats, then in burning people forever should be clues its be made up.

oneheck......, the people in the bible are responding to and acting-out god's will just like you claim you are. Where are the precise words from god that cause you to behave the way you do? You are god-inspired, right? If you ever thought to ask him why people more needy than you suffer, would he answer you with precise words?

Note that in segments like Numbers 31 after god tells Moses to exact vengeance, and Moses then tells people what to do, later in Numbers god is cool with what happened. He, god, didn't say, "Hey, what the heck are you doing? I didn't say to do that!!!" And he doesn't punish them for those atrocities. God-inspired. See?

Maybe now you have the answer to your questions in your 7:37a post. To say "god" is to say "belief in god." It is you who must read your bible.

I guess we agree to disagree. So you must be ok with the New Testament? It's not full of men saying god said to kill.

You don't mind if men worship? Just as long as it's not the christian god?

Would you have a problem with people worshipping a spirit? As long as it's not god?

If you are selecting the passages of the bible that you feel represent moral behavior - it is you that is determining what is moral behavior.

Of course god did not order the slaying of the children - there is no god. The bible is not the word of god it the word of man, brutal bronze age man.

The question I was answering was if the character of god as decribed in the christian bible ordered the murder of infants by the thousands - of course he did.

That still does not convince me that "god" ordered it. You have no proof he did. You have the rewritten bible that says he did.

The bible that man translated (Most likely an atheist) To turn people like you away from god.

Now we have the NIV bible. The King James was bad enough. I heard he didn't like women.

Let's put it this way. Man is the evil one. God is not. If you believe in god you would not commit evil.

If you commit evil, you are not of god. If you were evil you would most likely change the words of god to fulfill your own sick fantasy.

For you to even believe that all the words of the bible are the words of god only show that the deceiver has fooled even you into believing it.

I choose not to believe it all. You choose to devote your life to condemning it all.

So I suppose, If that is the way you wish to believe, that is your right. You and gfan can be crusaders for the evil men who put their own words into the bible. In a corrupt world, why would any man release a book of love? That would go against the ways of evil men.

Think about it.

1 Samuel 3:20

New International Version (NIV)

20 And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba recognized that Samuel was attested as a prophet of the Lord.

Anyways - those were the days - before the scientific method and video cameras - when god would talk to Sam and Moses. If you gave an order and then the person you gave the order to decided to commit genocide in your name you would probably mention that to them, maybe at least say stop spearing babies please. God doesn't - why? The text is clear those were his leaders and they were executing his orders, to execute every last person down to the last pregnant woman clutching her toddler, as a reward keep the virgins for yourselves.

gfan- I have diligently read your posts. During this entire thread. So stop right there with the “if your ready to make an effort” comments and all the other subtle digs.
I am not going to try and decipher your words when those words can sway in either direction when I answer them.
If you can find the effort to answer questions without the parables that would be nice. As far as my 7:37 post. It states what it states. No hidden message, no need to decipher it. It is what it is. And it says what it says.

Pro- Here it is in its entirety - Samuel also said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you king over His people, over Israel. Now therefore, heed the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
Once again Where is it that “GOD” commanded this? Samuel said it… And he didn’t even say god commanded it.

So you too give false statements about the bible. For once read the entire thing, then decide who said what.. This is how the atheists try to convince people? I could take a script from here and there and make it say whatever I wanted too. I thought you were better than that?

oneheck....., re: christians hating christians, I am responding to the first part of your 6:53a post today by quoting the last part of your February 14th, 11:27a post where you said:

"The catholic churches in my opinion is one of the most deceiving and evil forces on this planet. They are not of god, by god or for god."

----

And if I understand your 7:37a post today, you are asking why I'm attributing bad stuff to god in the bible even though I don't believe god exists. Is that the question?

Because if it is: I've repeatedly explained that. But you don't read the other person's post entirely or comprehensively. You even directly commented, to the effect, that you didn't read a post because it was too long. Now, I'll answer your question again if you are willing to make the effort to read it and respond to it as though you've read it, okay?

I'm not saying you have to agree with me when you respond, I'm only asking that you understand my thinking in my answer to your question. Are you going to do that?

Oneheck wrote: Pro there is a spirit and a soul.

Bold statement - if you have any credible evidence you can claim your Nobel Prize.

Deuteronomy 22
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

So god thinks its a good idea for a woman to have to marry her rapist? This is where you guys get your moral code?

Ezekiel 9
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary.

Baby killing on god's order.

1 Samuel 15
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

There are so many examples of baby murder on god's command. An all loving god does not spear a baby, let alone thousands of them.

Just a general theme of holy moral behavior doing god's bidding:

Jeremiah 48
10 Cursed be he that doeth the work of the Lord deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

gfan- If you are the factual type and believe in science and facts, and if you only believe in things that can be proven. Then why do you change the meaning of what you actually read in the bible?

You obviously know that what you are saying was not “actually” written. Yet you argue it to be the factual spoken words of god. Can you explain this?

Where have you experienced this? I have never experienced it. We were taught to love each other.

Through the ages man has put word into gods mouth to make him look like he commanded all these murders and rapes the atheist keep quoting.

As you can see where god said Take full vengeance. The atheist most likely included the rape of the virgin.

God didn't command that. If you think "Take full vengeance" means rape the virgins, Then it's fair to say he also said, And run them over with a 4 wheel drive when your done.

He didn't say it plain and simple..

A major problem is christian on christian hatred. That's why most of them don't go to church: they can't stand each other.

Deuteronomy 20:16 Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.

And the point is?

Pro there is a spirit and a soul.

Take full vengence . He didn't say rape or even take virgins.

Ok- I “forgot” your answer to my question. It is a human error on my part. If we are to be civil then I think you could forgive my memory problem and answer the question again for me. I spill my soul for. I just asking a simple question. Is there a reason you refuse to give a clear answer to me?

Numbers 31:1-2

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

Take full vengeance for the sons of Israel on the Midianites;

And if our conversation is over, I'll just make general comments about belief:

Deuteronomy 20:16 Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.

I did answer yours.

And I said I would answer those if you answer mine. It is only fair and respectable to both of us.

oneheck......., you are correct in the matter of repeatedly asking questions that have already been answered. But you should also have noticed that I also asked you two related but non-repetitive questions:

"Don't you think god would understand those situations [some humans incapable of proper worship] and issue a waiver on the requirements?"

and

"Are you curious enough to ask him?"

And on your part, you are repeating questions that I've already answered. You even offered a clue that I've answered those questions by stating that I may have "hid" them or it in my comment. I've already stated why I'm not a believer. I don't see the value in your demanding me to restate what I've already said just because you don't like how I've said it. Let's keep the conversation civil as well as intelligent.

And still the issue of morality:

You told me that you launched the horror of the bible. But still, it seems to me that god will punish you in this life (not answer prayers sometimes) and after death (your soul may die). This sort of punishment is immoral if it stems only from not following god's worship requirements. The horror still lingers. Have you asked why being good just isn't enough so that the ones incapable of worshiping don't unfairly suffer?

And what about the death penalty? Given that a certain amount of people on death row have been found innocent prior to execution, and a certain amount of people have been found innocent after execution, do you think there should no death penalty (don't kill people)?

Pro- you said - NTM - actually the Numbers 31 genocide was committed specifically on god's direct order.

Here is the real person of the bible who commanded it.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Did you read it all or just a part from another book?

Gfan- I think you know I didn’t ask god if he answers all prayers. I am trying to have a somewhat intelligent conversation without all the petty questioning that we both know the answer to.

I am willing to answer more of your questions if you can directly answer the only one I have been asking you. If you hid the answer somewhere in your posts then I will concede that I’m not smart enough to figure it out.

I will ask it again Were you ever religious and did you ever go to church?

oneheck......., did you ask god why he doesn't answer all prayers, especially the ones from people who are much more needy?

And what of the ones who can't pray or haven't lived long enough to understand the ways of god? Why doesn't god respond to their needs? Don't you think god would understand those situations and issue a waiver on the requirements? Are you curious enough to ask him? even though your sense of god is only a feeling.

Religion and church always only struck me as a curiosity. And I think you are of the opinion that it's best to discuss belief or non-belief as it affects our present state of mind. I will say, though, I never needed the threat of god in order to behave well.

That brings us back to morality. You told me that you launched the horror of the bible. But still, it seems to me that god will punish you in this life (not answer prayers sometimes) and after death (your soul may die). This sort of punishment is immoral if it stems only from not following god's worship requirements. The horror still lingers. Have you asked why being good just isn't enough so that the ones incapable of worshiping don't unfairly suffer?

And what about the death penalty? Given that a certain amount of people on death row have been found innocent prior to execution, and a certain amount of people have been found innocent after execution, do you think there should no death penalty (don't kill people)?

So man formed groups for survival. That was the Bronze age right? Just a bunch of idiots. We don't have to do that now, we've evolved!
"pass down their genes to the next generation"
Why would you care if your genes are passed on or not? What's the importance of a legacy if your death is so final? Who cares? Why reproduce anyway, what a pain in the but.

"My morality is a phenomenon of biological and cultural evolution. It is referred to as the golden rule but predates Jesus by about 200,000 years. You can say that I couldn't possibly know that as a fact but if it weren't true, then, our species would not have survived all that time up till Jesus and in every other part of the world." - That's not proof, it's rationalization.

What makes anything wrong? Your opinion? Because someone else suffers? Does that really matter in the end? We are all going to die anyway. Do unto others as.........If you really care how they feel.

Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

Man began to form groups and cooperate together to enhance their survival around that time. Those that tended to cooperate also tended to pass down their genes to the next generation, on it goes.

I am not sure what you are refering to when you state "hence the faith" - what can't I prove? Again no faith required, a logical and well reasoned conclusion based on examining evidence does not require faith.

One person's morality better than anothers? Not sure there - I do however know that genocide rape and slavery are always wrong and are behaviors to be condemned. As are acts of faith such as suicide bombing, genital mutilation, curbing funding for stem cell research, controlling a woman's reproductive process, flying planes into buildings, fighting holy wars, stunting the intellectual development of children with stories of hell and forced faith, burning witches, and on and on.

LOL - A Phenomenon?!?! Where you get this number of 200,000 years BC is a mystery I would love hear about. You're right, you can't prove that, hence the faith.
So you are suggesting that Morality is born in us through evolution? Okay, I'll humor you. Why though. To what end? Because you want to be a good citizen for a while? You still have a mind to reason out of these limits that society has put on you. Why play by those rules? Because everyone else is? What makes one person's morality better than another's? and if it is subjective, how can any justification really be? Who is the justifier?

We do not just take what we want and we behave in a moral fashion because we cooperate with one another, your religion divides us and as I said before it sows misery into the world.

Weren't there and don't know the details? The bible outlines the genocide in its entirety. Do say the same thing about the killing of Christ?

As far as the rest of your post I'll quote the GF's view on the matter:

My morality is a phenomenon of biological and cultural evolution. It is referred to as the golden rule but predates Jesus by about 200,000 years. You can say that I couldn't possibly know that as a fact but if it weren't true, then, our species would not have survived all that time up till Jesus and in every other part of the world.

'justification' nope, but possible explanation, yes - Feb 14, 2013 at 5:54 As I said, we weren't there and don't know all the details.

I'm sure you are an interesting person.

I'm not concerned with whether you have read the athiest and Christian sites, I'm sure you have, which is why you will know how I respond before I respond. Yes athiests will 'throw Bible quotes out', just as you have. And you may very well be right in stating that athiests have a better knowledge of the contents of the Bible than Christians, which makes you very good at twisting the words and not using the context.

More faith to be an athiest, from where I stand - You most likely know that argument as well, but in short : To believe that there is no purpose to your life other than to exist for 74ish years. To believe that there is no design to the world, that it was a cosmic coincidence, rather than a purposeful creation. To believe that we could go round doing every hatefull, hurtfull, selfish thing we can think of with absolutely no consequence. To live your entire life knowing that when you die, nothing.
What value does a single life have then? Or multiple lives for that matter. If I desire something, why not just take it? Morality? Pretty subjective without a creator, I'll make up my own morality, if it's what I want it's moral, I'm only going to live this one time anyway. If I make up my own morality, so will you, if we disagree what's to stop me from finishing you but my own moral code? Go ahead and talk about society, cultures etc. You can bring up the 'Golden Rule' if you like, but what for? I could go on but I assume you get my point.

LOL - OK NTM. You have not justified the genocide that god ordered in Numbers 31, your claim that you have convinces no one, not even the children reading our exchanges. It is a horror and any diety responsible should be ashamed of itself. Feel free to outline your justifications for genocide though, notice they are the same as what some of what we consider evil leaders have used to justify their own ethinic cleansings. Ie - the males would have been a threat had we let the babies live.

As far as the focus on me stuff, bleh, there is nothing there of interest.

Atheist sites and christian sites, I have read them both. Typically atheists will throw more bible quotes out and have a greater knowledge of the bible than christians.

More faith to be an atheist: not sure how you came to that conclusion. If I have any doubt about anything I research it and find evidence to support or refute the idea that I am considering. I do not need to pray to convince myself what I think is reality is indeed real. I can verify for myself and remove that doubt.

Pro, did you call Gfan to help you?
I'm not posting to try to make anyone look bad, or 'win', it's annonymous anyway. It's just irksome for me to see intelligent people using half truths to sway those that will take your convincing (at face value) arguments to heart.
God doesn't need me to defend Him or the Bible, as it is written. I guess I would encourage Oneheck or anyone else to study the Bible for themselves. If you decide to look online at athiest websites, you will most likely read some of the same arguments. Just look for clarification from a Christian website as well. What it will come down to is Faith. I think you will find that it takes a lot more faith to be an athiest than a Christian.

I'm pressed for time right now.

prounion, great job of exposing the internal "logic" of the bible for the insanity it is.

Yup, and you already know why (not because God is a brutal monster). Feigning ignorance about these topics only shows that you don't have a real argument, or that the one you have is personal enough that you'd rather not share it. Using arguments that you know can be refuted is misleading and unfair to those who take your information at face value, or simply do not take the time to research it. These things make you ingenuine. Not only are you misrepresenting the Bible, you are misrepresenting yourself. As I said before, focus on yourself and find the real reason, and share it with us.

NTM - actually the Numbers 31 genocide was committed specifically on god's direct order.

Oneheck - neither one is true, you have no soul, there is no hell nor heaven, its a book of myths from a time when primitive ignorant men thought disease and hurricanes were instruments of god's will and wrath.

I said it sows misery in the world, not that it only sows misery. Not worth the horrors and the stunted intellects of children that it fosters, IMO.

If it only sows misery then why are people comforted when they pray to god? Even if the good feeling was psychological why would that be considered misery?

But the part of hell has to be man made. It does not make sense. One verse says “the soul that sins, it shall die. So which one is true?

It is good that you do not claim Christianity, if that is how you feel. That is faulty logic. With all of this knowledge that you have, I am sure you know that all of these examples that you give are of people breaking the third commandment. What God commands and what man does are all to often not the same. Love your enemy. Reach the people that you can. God gave man free will, who am I to disrespect that (others have, no need to remind me of that).
The Word of Truth that can set you free.

Onheck - with respect - there are passages that are clear that the loving god will torture me forever:

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:9-11).

Luke 16: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh" (Isaiah 66:22-24).

Of course you can find passages that say the opposite - that can be done with virtually any idea in the bible - except that you can not find one that strictly forbids rape and slavery.

NTM - which god - couldn't the same be said of you about your not following any one of the other thousands of gods?

You concern about leading others astray is a very valid one. In fact in the past it would have been used to justify my murder as a heretic. If you could save a soul from eternal fire by sending me to my eternal torture a little earlier why wouldn't you? You would be doing god's work. This religious logic continues in practice to this day.

It a book of myth and it sows misery in the world.

Pro & Gfan,

I feel bad for you on day when you come to your senses and realize that not only have you disrespected God so much, but you have also potentially led others astray.

Instead of absorbing all of the hatred on the athiest websites, focus on yourself. Why was your relationship with God such a dissapointment? Did you really have faith? Did you think that your commitment to God made God obligated to reward you on earth? Perhaps you were tested and failed?
Try again. Maybe this time not only will you know the truth, you will have a better understanding of it.

•"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
How many times can you destroy something? Once. It means death. Your soul will die.

•"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7). Their sin will cause them to die. Once again their soul dies. And Jesus is not the cause. He is giving them a warning. If you do this you will die. If a modern day doctor told you not to use a needle or you would die of aids, Would the doctor be the one that killed you? Or did he just warn you?

•These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

Black darkness reserved for ever. Death again.Is it black darkness or hells fire? The death of your soul. The soul that sins, it shall die.
You are doing what I said everyone could have done. Changing the meaning of what is really written.

I see no hate in the words. I see warnings. And Christ said ask for forgiveness of these things and sin no more and your soul would live.

Jesus is peaceful? I don't think so. With jesus comes the introduction of Hell. If you don't believe then you burn forever.

•"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
•"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
•These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

Gfan- Part 1. I pray to god. If it gets answered then I attribute it to prayer and faith. As to why doesn’t he answer more important prayers? I said I don’t know.

Part 2 –I never said that “only” atheists. I merely said an atheist would say it was a coincident. I’m sure others would too.
Those other people who are in more distress than I am. Do they pray and have faith that their prayer will be answered? That is important. Do you know they pray and have a strong faith?
Part 3- I am neither against stem cell research or a woman having control of her own body. You are confusing me with the catholic church, which I already stated how I feel about them.
Your last question-
I believe your soul goes somewhere or it dies.
Will you answer my question? were you ever religious? Or did you ever go to church.

17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Later they state that there were 32,000 virgins that were divided up.

Its genocide and it is wrong and god made sure that all those babies were slaughtered in front of their mothers, who were then killed, thousands and thousands of them. The virgins were then placed into the loving homes of the murders, but of course not raped? Then again I suppose I am just being dramatic.

There were many rules for rape and how to manage it. In some cases the raped woman would be forced to marry the rapist.

Point is - your god has the exact same moral code as brutal bronze age man. It is because they did not know better and created that god, and those myths from their own point of view. Thats why the folks that follow the bible tend to have a broken moral compass which leads them to state that complaints of their god's brutal genocide and slaughter of innocents are just people being dramatic.

Pro- I disagree that casting demons into a herd of pigs leads to the burning of women. That is a huge stretch. But what NTM asked was where does Christ tell his followers Plainly, to burn witches. He doesn’t even slightly suggest it.

To answer your question. Jesus does not talk about hate, or killing. His message is love. So I find it more credible.

The words of god will not change. It did not say man was unable to edit out gods words and add his own words. It warned not to. It didn’t say it “couldn’t” happen.

When god killed the first born, didn’t he tell those who believed to put lambs blood around the door and there would be no death there? Didn’t god give them a way out? But they refused to listen to gods word.

coming up with dramatizations is super fun, but you and I weren't there. in Deuteronomy the rules of war regarding this were laid out. Rape wasn't a part of that. Killing the adults and males I would guess would eliminate any future retaliation. Sparing the virgin females would be an act of mercy. Had they not been virgins they would have been married and more likely to be indoctrinated with the culture that was defeated. No thought has been given to the fact that the defeated were brutalizing the israelites, murdering, raping, completely immoral, and infecting cultures around them. Why do we go to war? To stop bad people from doing bad things to others. Do you think it is possible that those spared were much better off with a compassionate, God fearing soldier instead of being brought up in the a culture that has no respect for women? Perhaps that virgin that you spoke of would have ended up in a brothel, maybe killed for sport.
Suppose you focus on the teachings of Christ, any fault there? After all, I am professing CHRISTianity.

Well NTM - we will have to agree to disagree - when you slaughter (god's will be done) a young virgin female's pregnant mother and her toddler brother in front of her and then take her captive in your home that is a horrible horrible immoral act. If you wish to interpret a bunch of bronze age soldiers interpreting "keep the virgins for yourselves" as anything other than a prelude to rape, that is a testament to the ability of the god delusion to warp the ability to think rationally when evidence contrary to the idea that god is good is presented. Its all right there in the bible, your god is horrible and certainly not deserving of worship if it were to actually exist.

Right, oneheck......, re: the so-called internal "logic" of the bible re: Isaiah. You just didn't happen to mention when you cited it that you reject Isaiah as the cause of the horror that goes on everyday. Your astute rejection of that "cause" still leaves the question of why your god doesn't stop those horrors though he apparently is available to you on a regular basis to help you with your relatively less important concerns. (Not that your concerns aren't important, it's just that they're not as important.)

And how did you come to the conclusion that only atheists attribute "strange" occurrences to chance? The real question, though, goes to the issue of my first paragraph: Why is your god so hit-and-miss when it comes to distributing his mercy? It seems that your rejection of the particular god who is a product of man's lies in the bible should also compel you to reject a god who won't help humans who are in much greater need than you are.

And this leads back to the issue of morality and that assuming a moral posture is not as easy saying, for example, that you don't kill. When the subject of killing (which is sometimes murder) is broached, you and your morality have a responsibility to take stances on issues of stem cell research and a pregnant woman's right to control her own body.

My morality is a phenomenon of biological and cultural evolution. It is referred to as the golden rule but predates Jesus by about 200,000 years. You can say that I couldn't possibly know that as a fact but if it weren't true, then, our species would not have survived all that time up till Jesus and in every other part of the world.

And I almost forgot, does you belief guarantee you a place in heaven?

Yes God would be jealous if his creation chose to worship anything/anyone but him. The curse of the generations is really more of a predictiona that, if you hate God and commit sins against Him, chances are pretty good that your children and Children's children, will as well and have to answer just as you have.

Slavery was often a way of paying a debt. A person who was in debt would sell themselves and even their family to work/serve the person who pays the debt for him.

Rape is not condoned. If a man takes a woman as a result of a war, spared from death, she is in fact given a certain amount of time to mourn her families' death, is not to be 'had' until her 'captor' has married her, and she would have all of the rights of a wife an arranged marriage, if you will, not something acceptable in ours, and most cultures anymore.

The Exodus passage says nothing about selling your daughter as a sex slave. It says if a marraiage is arranged between the daughter and the son of the 'owner', that the daughter will be a 'free' of her obligations as a 'slave' or should we say 'debtor'.

Yes, God also sought vengeance against Egypt for mistreating his chosen people, His prerogative.

The Discrimination link you provided, clearly not what I was referring to.
Canaan, Ham's son was cursed. So what. The people who developed the website you sent me to are clearly racist people trying to misuse the Bible to teach their own hate and ignorance.

There is no evidence of that demons posses people, nor that witches have magical powers.

Yet the good book fosters this belief in this magical undetectible underworld that is to be feared, as a result the faithful burn young women, and justify burning humans alive the same way they have thru history, they are just going to burn in hell for eternity anyway right?

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness." Dali Lama

Petty - He describes himself as a jealous god that will inflict his wrath unto the third and fourht generation of the sinner. He sends out she bears to rip apart 42 young men because one of them called his bro bald.

Hateful - Some he loves - some he says he hates. Then he orders the slaughter of thousands down to the last pregnant woman and infant.

Arbitrary - He hardens the leader of Egypts heart for his own glory (Petty) and then procedes to slaughter the firstborn of even the serf in the field that has no clue about whats going on, if that weren't enough he slaughters the first born of all the animals - for his glory.

Endorsing slavery - Show me. Leviticus 25:44Romans 13:1-5Titus 3:1Titus 2:91 Peter 2:18Col 3:221 Cor 7:21-22Eph 6:5
Rape - Deuteronomy 22:23-24, Deuteronomy 21:10-14 Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Judges 5:30
Exodus 21:7 - 11 tells how to sell your daughter as a sex slave.
Discrimination - http://www.afrostyly.com/english/afro/di...

"He also casts out a bunch of demons at one point into a herd of pigs."
This was a miracle, demonstrating the power of the Son of God, not a turorial for Followers of Jesus.

"Thats the type of magical dogmatic faith that leads to the superstiious but faithful crowd burning a 20 year old girl alive."

Miracle, not 'magical'.
and The Third Commandment. (Some)People use the Bible to rationalize all manner of horrible behaviour. This is taking the Lord's name in vain.

"biblical god is clearly a petty, hateful, arbitrary mass murderer that endorses slavery, discrimination and rape."
Petty - I don't see it.
Hateful - yes of sin and evil men.
Arbitrary - No, there was always a reason, not a petty one either.
Endorsing slavery - Show me.
Rape - Show me.
Discrimination - What's wrong with discrimination? Unfair discrimination sure, that's bad, but to discriminate between right and wrong, what's holy and what is evil. What is good for us and what is bad. I think discrimination is pretty important.

NTM - Jesus points to the old testament and says that not one word of it should pass away. He also casts out a bunch of demons at one point into a herd of pigs. Thats the type of magical dogmatic faith that leads to the superstiious but faithful crowd burning a 20 year old girl alive.

NTM you pointed out to OHG that he should not just pick and choose from the bible. I agree - if the bible is considered a source of knowledge about the nature of god, it should all be considered. If one does not pick and choose however the biblical god is clearly a petty, hateful, arbitrary mass murderer that endorses slavery, discrimination and rape.

ONeheck - how did you determine that the Christ/intersessor segments of the bible were valid and not placed there to manipulate man/kings as the other sections were?

Gfan : "The basis for your belief, the bible, has a written doctrine for rationalizing all manner of horrible human behavior with the encouragement of something that's claimed to be god."

The Third Commandment. (Some)People use the Bible to rationalize all manner of horrible behaviour. This is taking the Lord's name in vain.

Prounion, where in the New Testament does it say that Christians should burn witches?

Yes, the Catholic church needs to review the first three commandments, especially the third.
Taking the Lord's name in vain is not just about saying "Jesus Christ' and "Goddamnit" innapropriately, it's about using God's name for your gain, to hide ill-intent, etc. To gain the trust of innocent people, and then take advantage of them.

NTM - correct.

Pro-I believe in a soul and a higher spirit. Heaven? I don’t know. Christ/intercessor? Yes.
I do call that higher spirit god. It is just as easy as calling it a higher spirit. I still can’t prove it though.


Gfan- As far as Isaiah. If you take the bible as 100 percent fact. Then the people turned their back on god and that would explain the world and cruelness as we know it.
Is the spirit separate from the body? Not while we live. But I can’t prove it. I can’t say that god answers prayers for people. All I can say is there has been some strange things happen that an atheist would call coincidence.

I have morals because I believe I am a good person. I don’t steal, rob, rape, kill, cheat, and I help people who need it. That does not mean I don’t get angry and sometimes say things I don’t mean or regret. We all do.
I’m sure you are moral even though it is not faith related. Was you raised with religion and decided it was a hoax? Or How did you come not to believe?

You love your wife because of who she is, what she means to you, not because she will divorce you and take half of everything.
As a child you love your parents because they brought you into this world, care for you and love you, not because you fear being spanked, grounded, abandoned,etc.

Love God because He is our creator. Do you suggest that there are no consequences for evil?
Philipians 2:12,13 : Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

I don't think this verse says "do whatever you think, as long as it isn't evil". It clearly states "to act in order to fulfill his good purpose" - not yours.
And how does this verse speak to you that you should 'test spirits'? what on earth does that mean?

Notthismonkey-Philippians 2.12 Work out your own salvation. I take that to mean that what is right for you as long as it’s not evil is what you should do. You are suppose to test the spirits if they are of god.
But if you love god because you are afraid of burning in hell then it is not love. It’s fear. I do not believe in hell because if I did then my love could not be pure. It would be tainted by fear. Anyone who believes that the bible cannot be changed is fooling themselves.

The catholic churches in my opinion is one of the most deceiving and evil forces on this planet. They are not of god, by god or for god.

oneheck....., it is sound reasoning on your part that forced "love" is not love.

And your other recent comments about the bible leave me with the reasonable conclusion that you no longer attribute the horror that happens everyday to your Isaiah citation.

As for "spirit," is it a thing that is separate from the body and/or can survive the body's death? And does your non-belief only in hell mean that you believe in heaven and that you or your spirit will eventually go there? One of the reasons I'm asking this is because you thus far describe god as something that's important to your sense of well-being at the same time you seem to be rendering god as non-involved in the matter of always saving all humans in peril. (Though you may still describe god as occasionally saving humans in peril and occasionally responding in a positive way to prayer.)

All this makes me wonder about how morality factors into your belief. No threat of hell and the automatic(?) promise of heaven leaves you without a sense of morality that derives from belief -especially since god is apparently not doing everything he can do to prevent horror. I'm not saying that you're immoral, I'm only saying that it seems that your morality comes from somewhere other than your belief in god.

If (I use that very loosely) God created all of mankind, as I believe, why shouldn't man be punished for turning away from God? The Commandments are for our good. There is not just a potential eternal consequence to not following them, there are other immediate consequences as well.
Also, oneheck, do not accept some of the Bible and reject what is inconvenient to you, or that which you cannot explain, it's a slippery slope.

Onheck - you are absolutly correct with the idea that Hell was used to control man via fear. Also used to indocternate children at an early age.

Do you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior? It is not only fear that can be used to control people, an imaginary reward can also be used, especially if that reward sooths an inate fear - like of death for example.

Gfan- As I said a year or so ago. I feel as though there is a spirit. I admitted there is fault in the bible. If I was told to love my dad or he would burn me for ever, I would not love him because I loved him. I would love him because I feared him. Because I had to or he would burn me. But that wouldn't be love. It would be fear. So I believe man put that in there to control man with fear. Just like in deuteronomy where it says you can't change a word or else. Man's way of controling young kings.
I can't prove there is a god. But I feel as if there is one. I agree with pros last post that people will believe anything. If I am guilty of that then I am guilty of that. It woun't change my mind that there is a god though.it would however explain how man could be fooled into believing there is no god also.

It's interesting that the third commandment was brought up. It seems that if all Christians followed that commandment you athiests might not be so against Christianity.

Apparently Mr. Martin doesn't put much stock in Catholicism, or the third commandment

Hello everyone, still at it I see.

oneheck......, your question has already been answered in my last comment and in prounion's 12:49. If you think I haven't addressed it, it can only be because you have a definition in mind that has "the spirit" as something that's not supernatural. If that's the case, state that definition.

And a truce is obvious in my 11:12 post.

And what you may have taken as provocation in my last few comments was nothing more than kidding in the same vein as when you said "if you please."

Okay, so you reject the Book of Job and hell in the bible. But what of Deuteronomy where you are told not to change god's words -which would also mean that you can't say any of his words are invalid, that is you can't pick and choose.

And what about when you cited Isaiah as an explanation for something horrible that happens thousands of times each day now? Where are you with that "explanation" now?

If you've changed your mind about that explanation, then why do those things happen? I ask because it seems that you're defining god as exclusively good. If you attribute god's miracles as an explanation for when people in peril are saved, what is god doing when people in peril aren't saved? Isn't god doing something bad merely by allowing horrible things to happen when he has the power to do anything he wants? (I'm letting him off-the-hook right now as the cause of that horror.)

Sure oneheck I have been presented with no evidence that there is any sort of spirit world - indian or otherwise.

If you have some it would be very interesting, in fact if it could stand up to rigourous study it would surly win a nobel prize.

Humans have the ability to imagine a wide variety of things, the spirit world seems to be one of them. We are also very good at creating creators/gods, thats why there are so many of them.

With no evidence, there is no reason to believe it is not just someone's imagination.

In reference to the faithful burning a witch alive - clearly they did not weigh the evidence against her in a scientific manner. They were easily led superstitious folks that took the bible on faith and carried out that commandment. Once you throw reality out the window even good people do horrible things in god's name based on faith.

Gazettefan. I believe I explained this awhile back. We discussed Job and the things done to him. I found those things hard to believe. I also explained awhile back that I did not believe in hell. I went on to explain how I did feel there was a spirit.

I know my faith was based on the “bible god” But as time went on, and the more I read the more things did not add up to a loving god. I did explain this before.

In the past we have both threw insults at one another until I got deleted. If we can both be polite and if we can both refrain from subtle and not so subtle insults I will explain more. Can we call a truce?

Gazettefan- I understand we are talking about the bible right now. But let me ask a question before I try and answer.

The Indians believe in a spirit. Not necessarily god. Do you think there is any type of spirit? You may have answered this once before so excuse me if it is a repeat.

Pro. would you answer also?

PS: heck, it ebbs and flows as to the ratio of believers and non-believers discussing this issue on this site. Right now it's two to one for non-believers.

So, no kidding, take your time. Give comprehensive replies.

oneheck......, it's commendable that you're attempting to form a syllogism to advance your point of view on this important issue. And your courtesy thus far is truly inspiring. ;~)

My answers to your four questions are: Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

However your syllogistic effort is done fatal damage by your very questions and my answers to those questions. That is:

The first and most important atheistic book I ever read is the bible.

The bible is supposed to be a credible source for the existence of god. If, as you admit, the bible contains lies by humans for their personal gain (yes indeed, in more than one way), you have assumed the burden of sorting out who lied and who didn't. You have the responsibility for employing a criteria for making those distinctions.

If we put true or false historical events aside, we are left with the bible's most important claims: Claims of supernatural events, including the particular claim of the existence of god.

And it doesn't help your position that for years there's been a million dollar reward for anyone who could prove or demonstrate a supernatural phenomenon and that no one's collected a penny of that reward.

It also doesn't help your position that my stance on this issue isn't burdened with claims of the supernatural.

Lets focus on your questions then Heck -
Should they be considered - for what?

Lets take them one by one looking at value to society using the Dueterotomy listing:

1 - No other gods before me - why - and how many other ones are there? This is very divisive to society - witness all the religious killing/bombing of different sects of christianity.

2. No carven images or likeness - you violate this one all the time - its useless.

He goes on to say that third and fouth generations will be punished if you don't follow one and two.

3. Don't take the Lord's name in vain - give me a break. But rape and slavery are hidden in adultry and do on to others? The bible is full of exactly how to rape and hold slaves and the all loving creator burns one of the ten on people using his name?

4. The sabbath - really? No one follows this but it does say you should pelt people with rocks until they die if they do go out and pick up sticks on the Sabbath.

5 thru ten. The remaining four are the golden rule - that predate the bible - unoriginal. The golden rule does have a great value to society - its what allowed society in the first place.

In this same chapter god goes all genocidal and wipes out women/children on wide scale. If that was inserted by man as you mentioned in a previous post did they also insert the good stuff of the latter commandments?

Have I answered your questions completely - if not please let me know - I will not evade your questions heck.

Pro- the commandment that says thou shalt not commit adultry should cover the rape. Love thy neighbor should cover the slaves. Have no other gods is the petty you talk about.

You failed to answer any of my questions.

Do they have any value in our society?

Oneheck -which set of ten commandments?

I think you mean the popular set so lets go with that.

First what type of being demands worship? A petty one.

Second, the golden rule predates those commandments - and covers them nicely. It does make one wonder why a supreme being would speak so much about his concern that he is not getting worshiped enough instead of using one of the sacred ten commandments to outlaw slavery or rape.

You have already answered that question with your last post to GF - men wrote the bible for their own needs. That is why when you read the bible god is a horrible monster, it was written by sheep herders in the bronze age, when man was more primitive, brutal and uncivilized.

pro. What is your thoughts on the 10 commandments? Should they be considered? Do they have any value in our society?

gazettefan- Ok. The bible which is supposed to be the inspired word of god was written by man. The Kings were men of the human kind. The wars they waged and the deaths they caused were at the hands of men. According to the bible a king would ask a prophet if they should go to war. The prophet would tell the king to go to war. The prophet would tell the king (Some as young as 8) to kill all the males and take all the virgins for themselves. So the king (some being 8) would go to war and kill all the males and take all the virgins.

Now a few questions for you. Is it possible that some of those prophets were telling the kings (some only 8) these things for their own gain?
Is it possible some of the prophets lied?
Or is it possible that man put stuff in the bible for their own gain?

Your disbelief in a god or faith of any kind is based on things you have read. Is it possible that some of the stuff you read is wrong?
I think my questions all deserve a “kind” answer if you please.

oneheck......., if you're responding to my earlier comment in which I said this...

"The basis for your belief, the bible, has a written doctrine for rationalizing all manner of horrible human behavior with the encouragement of something that's claimed to be god."

...kindly be more precise in your response.

Gazettefan. The bible was written by man. It stands to reason there would be the horrors you describe in it.

Yes. But I will throw a wrench in that answer.
I believe doctors were given to us from god.

Good for you Oneheck. That is the moral thing to do.

Do you think the parents were foolish to simply pray over that child while it died an agonizing death?

I would dial 911 then pray.

Do you then condemn those acts of faith that lead to horrors? If so on what grounds - they have faith just as you do.

If you saw a person praying over someone in a diabetic coma would you plop down next to them and pray or would you dial 911?

oneheck......, if you had a neighbor that was good 99% of the time but terrorized the neighborhood the other 1% of the time, where would your focus be?

The basis for your belief, the bible, has a written doctrine for rationalizing all manner of horrible human behavior with the encouragement of something that's claimed to be god. What other ideology has that? None. Hence the focus.

Your personal adaption of that god even comes with the dark side: You accepted god's explanation for why currently thousands of babies die each day. Remember?

On the other thread, you said I blamed god for those deaths. You forgot that you're the one who provided that "explanation."

Yes I did. I said there are those that do that and there are those that don't I also ask why you only concentrate on the dark side?
Some faiths kill, Some love. You group them all together.
I also asked why gazettefan isn't against alcohol. Which kills more people each year than religions do.

Dang oneheck - the other story's comments section got deleted. Did you reply to my questions about how your faith is different than than the faithful that burned the 20 year old alive as per the biblical commandment?

Gazettefan. Why not choose a board we can post on where the editor is not one sided?

You can tell people that the pope is training his people how to get naked and that is not offensive to Scott. Strange.
I would love to debate you on a site where the editor is not so forgiving of your remarks.
Or where there is no editor at all.

frankthe........., anything to say on the subject of the blog?

Here's something to chew on, from Reuters:

"Victims [of catholic clergy child rape] demanded that he [the current pope] be investigated by the International Criminal Court but the Vatican said he could not be held responsible for the crimes of others.

"Scandal closer to home hit in 2012 when the pontiff's butler was s found to be the source of leaked documents alleging corruption in the Vatican's business dealings, causing an international furor."

In other words, the Vatican claims that its child rapists are above the laws that everyone else has to abide by.

And that the pope and his crew are corrupt to the core.

Hence the true reason for the resignation.

By the way, Einstein, note that the blogger James Martin is goofing on your pope.

And, hey, billnewbie, you forgot to mention any of this.

LOL, billnewbie, not bad from your usual sourpuss self.

And what's your other point? that your real name is Bill Newbie?

By the way, can you refer to anything in scripture that justifies and prophesises the opulence of the pope's castle, the garishness of his attire, the expense of his accessories, and the need for his army of butlers? As a bible scholar, I can't cite anything about the itinerant, palestinian rabbi known as Jesus living that way.

Wow, what courage it takes to make snide remarks anonymously about an elderly person who says he's too frail to do his job. I guess taking cheap shots are now what passes for "stunning reasoning" by the Gazette's leading "new atheist". He must be beaming with pride. So much so that he no doubt keeps a mirror near his keyboard so he can admire himself after he types out his "brilliance"! (That is if he can still see himself clearly through all those lip prints.)

He's going to look weird at the employment agency.

I think he made a very responsible decision, one that I totally respect.
We all could learn from this. If you are not able to fulfill your job obligations, it is time to move on.
And I am not Catholic...Just saying...

He doesn't like the hat. Thinks it makes him look odd. Clashes with the rest of his outfit.

I didn't even know the Pope was allowed to resign. (I am not Catholic) For some reason I figured that if it's was God's will that put you there, you'd have to wait for God to remove you as well. Another interesting news story today.

Millions of catholics are waiting for the new pope's instructions on how to behave while naked.

(Trusting that in spite of it all, Mr. Martin has a sense of humor.)

Why would you want to be Pope when even the Pope doesn't want to be Pope?
I'm just sayin'...