Did you guys know that the last 60 posts have been about your argument? Don't you think you should take it somewhere else? People don't want to comment on this article because you guys will probably "induct" them into your "Hall of Shame". Please, just go out on the internet and start argueing there or I know.....meet for coffee with your boxing gloves on! JMO

Again...much easier to avoid answering questions and declare associations no matter how false they are. What was that about an air bag?

gliver18 - You still talking ya left wing Froot Loop? I thought told you to get out and enjoy the weather and stop being so angry at everyone. But if you can't play well with others, you need to come back inside and take a time out.

Oh by the way teabaggers and Republicans keep up the support with all the misguided acts (looks a lot like domestic terrorism). Have you seen the latest polls now, kinda looks like when Americans found out there wasn't going to be armageddon or the sky falling, somebody must have been factbending. AirBag, try calling Joe the Plumber, oh I forgot,he has that backed up methane brain syndrome too. Gotta say, it actually looks like the teabaggers might be a good thing for the Democrats, keep up the good work and keep those gas filled posts coming. lol

Much easier to avoid answering questions and declare associations no matter how false they are.

Too bad there wasn't some way you teabaggers could sell all that hot air you have a lot of,
maybe put it to use and heat homes for the poor
Oh, wait a minute theres a rotten smell to it
like your ideologue--very harmful to citizens

gliver18 wrote "Most of the lies and half truths and outright myths are coming from the far right and there lackeys. It will be hard for you but please check these web sites out factcheck.org or politifact.com"
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Really? Why don't you go to these sights and find the links showing reps suppress wages.

Still waiting....

Gliver18, if what you declare as greedy CEO’s, corporations, bankers, and wall street types make so much because of republican greed, why do people in these positions who are not republican’s not refuse their salary or donate the difference?

Your still in a delusional trance, all those years working for a union and you think UC is wages.

Again wages are earned, not given.

So try again, what wages have they suppressed?

"which I don't think you will except as fact"
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Well you are right on that one! I did accept your math though.

gliver18 - Are you still talking? What a waste of air you are. You can talk about the number of posts all you want. The fact is, your last 25 are paragraphs of pure anger and aggression that's going to give you nothing but an aneurism. FYI, not every post people put on here is related to political beliefs. Believe it or not, there's more to life than politics and hating mankind. Have a great day. Get out and enjoy the weather.

News flash for andre_theloon, I think the facts in the encyclopedia define Fascism as follows: Is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives; values; and systems such as the political system and the economy. Scholars generally consider fascism to be on the far right of the conventional left-right political spectrum. Now in your twisted logic I suppose even the encyclopedia are left wing spin masters but in any case once again most people think of Nazi's as Fascist's. Another thing that strikes me as downright gall is for people like you spread your lies and bull for 920 posts now if I can count right, your fellow spinmaster RetiredAirBag has 3011 posts and the other rt winger sparky has 2093 posts. I really don't have all the time to go back over my posts to correct simple punctuation and sometimes spellcheck plus typos because 6000 posts of drivel by you 3 against by 24 posts is a lot of time to overcome even if I am retired. You know I actually am starting to think that 2 of you aren't even workers & the Air Bag wasn't in the air force. With all this time to write distorted logic you possibly are plants ( like a mole inside a spy network) and work for the Janesville Gazette as ghost writers for there right wing ideologue. I see there editorials on the CSI papers that they own sound a lot like a composite of you 3

To the retired AirBAG I don't know what causes your brain to malfunction when it comes to excepting facts, to be so one sided in your thinking to not except even the most basic facts how can reasonable people even have a conversation with you. You would probably disagree that 1=1, 1+1=2, 1*1=1, 2-1=1, 2*1=2 but these are real facts about numbers and math which I don't think you will except as fact , because their not your facts. However another example of what your Republican friends do when they get in control of the Wis governor , upper and lower houses, they will enact a 2 week waiting period for workers to not receive any money from unemployment compensation, after the 2 weeks then they will start receiving UC. Guess how many times unscrupulous employers will have layoffs in a year (inventory checks, change overs, etc...yadayadayada). Along with reduced UC wages(benefit monies), more weeks to work to even qualify in a year and less weeks to draw UC in a year. Now RetiredAirBag thats 1+1+1+1=4 reasons (facts) why a worker or any employee should boot out the Republican and bring in the friend of Labor (Democrats)

"Most of the lies and half truths and outright myths are coming from the far right and there lackeys. It will be hard for you but please check these web sites out factcheck.org or politifact.com"
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Really? Why don't you go to these sights and find the links showing reps suppress wages.

"love to hear your support or nonsupport of the Iraq war, bet I can just about guess how you will defend the trillions of money spent unjustly there"
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Either you already know or you want to hear, makeup your mind.

“be it wages or uc benefits it is still money that the worker needs and Repubs have a history of suppressing those wages, benefits & monies.”
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So you still have not shown in anyway how the mean greedy reps have suppressed wages…only showing a wisconsin law that created policies to provide the benefit.

Gliver18, if what you declare as greedy CEO’s, corporations, bankers, and wall street types make so much because of republican greed, why do people in these positions who are not republican’s not refuse their salary or donate the difference?

God its got to hurt awful bad to carry all this misery and hate, taxing your small brains to distort a new lie, create another spin, thinking only of yourself. Boys, do you realize that nazi's were considered right wingers in Germany and that there policies ended up destroying that country. The German people have to take some of that blame for believing all the propaganda and lies that Gerbels, the propaganda minister (asa Glen Beck, R Limbaugh) tell. Your talking points seem to be mini-mes of these two hate filled ginny up the gullable and ignorant talking media heads. When you call somebody a socialist why dont you go to bi-partisan web sites and learn the truth from reasonable people that these charges are nothing more than lies and propaganda, same thing with health care you will find republicans and democrats that try to debunk these untruths. Most of the lies and half truths and outright myths are coming from the far right and there lackeys. It will be hard for you but please check these web sites out factcheck.org or politifact.com

gliver18 - Do you realize you keep saying the same thing over and over. Just to different people. Categorizing everyone into one group. Calling Republicans clan members, teabaggers. Basically calling people names like you're 5 years old. You're retired. You should be embarrassed by your immature behavior on here. Do the World a favor and move to Mexico where your past job has been moved to. Obama bought your company with everyone elses money, he should be able to get you out of retirement. Just don't go on strike to drive the cost of vehicles up so you can be overpaid and underworked.
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Sucks when people attack you without even knowing you, doesn't it?

well mr andy is back, tell me are you going to wear a suit and tie to the teabagger rally this weekend or back to the real grassroots of the teabaggers and wear that sheet that says kkk stenciled on it. what is this now number 914 posts of absolute stupidity, your comprehension of the real facts and the lies and propaganda that you spew are being blown up right in front of your eyes, watching the president sign the healthcare bill today to help those in need gave me such a glow and a good feeling in my heart that we the democrats have much to be proud of. At the same time its also rewarding to see you right wingers squirm, cry, whine and try to spin. Best thing that ever happened for Democrats is that you right wingers and teabaggers have complete control of the Republican party. That behavior in front of the capitol this week by your out of control teabaggers (just like you) being cheered on and reved up by the Republicans showed a lot of independents and reasonable people including some moderate republicans just how desperate & out of touch with reality you are. Keep up the Rants and Raves

gliver18 - Seriously, life is too short to be that angry all the time. I've never seen anyone take politics and things you can't control, so personally. You don't even know me, yet you act like I'm a horrible person because I don't agree with your political views. Because I'm not a democrat. People like you, are a scary type. If you don't like that fact that others can have a different political view, I suggest you move to a different Country.
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My whole point to my first point was the battle between parties and how it causes problems. And how I don't believe people that abuse the system deserve health care. THAT WAS MY POST! You turned this entire thing into assumptions and stereotypes of who I am because of my party preference. I could care less what Bush said or some news channel said. I don't base my views on the media and if you do, shame on you.

gliver18 - you are a retired, grumpy person and your meaningless assumptions speak volumes about the character you are. Now do me a favor. Shut you trap and stop stereotyping someone you know absolutely nothing about. The World doesn't owe you anything. Just because you worked at GM and were part of a union, doesn't make you the only apparent hard worker in the World. Go get a hug from Mike Sheridan.

sparky I dont see how you can spin your way out of be a supporter of Republican policies that harm american workers and manufacturers and at the same time a supporter of workers and employers. I think you speak doublespeak or with forked tongue. I think it is clearly stated in my post that I didn't know if you had a foreign car or not (is that not correct)somehow you spin or imply that I accuse you of owning a foreign car, as you write these posts down does it not sink in your skull what was actually said or do you get confused when you try to spin, however the 2nd part is correct, you support policies that are harmful to American workers and yet you claim to be (wasn't it you who first claimed to be a hard worker or was it another one of your buddies trying to spin) implying I guess that the rest of us weren't hard workers. Sparky I am retired now but were in the world does a hard worker like you and andy liplock find the time at all hours of the day to spin your misguided false facts. Is it possible you aren't a worker, but instead maybe have some cushy job that daddy gave you and you can hide all day in a closet on a computer dreaming up more lies about the guy working his butt off down the hall.

gliver18 - Actually, this is what you said. "I dont know if you have a foreign car Sparky but it seems in your jealousy and greed you support that side of the fence." Again, another false assumption. So to that I say, put a cork it for once. What am I jealous of? You? Not a chance in hell.

Once again sparky your spin won't quite take, in your anger and jumping to conclusions you missed the part were I said You probably don't own a foreign car but your support of unfair Republican trade laws help that foreign industry rather than American. You have a lot of gall and are one mixed up dude.As for Andy Liplock complaining about my many recent posts, my god you have over 913 posts of drivel from right wing talking points and how you must be suffering now that these crazy people are being exposed for there lies, deceit and outright myths. I think you are a person that knows a lot about nothing. But AirBag when you support the policies that encourage corporations to evade fair share of taxes by having there corp office in tax havens thats greedy,when CEO's,Bankers and wall street types make 600 times as much as their employees thats greed, how about only 40 times like it was in the 50's and 60's, how about those huge tax breaks for the Wealthy that the Bushies and Repubs did during those awful eight years, I think your butts are going to kicked again in Nov because most reasonable people now see through all your spin. By the way AirBag be it wages or uc benefits it is still money that the worker needs and Repubs have a history of suppressing those wages, benefits & monies. One more thing Air Bag, love to hear your support or nonsupport of the Iraq war, bet I can just about guess how you will defend the trillions of money spent unjustly there

..and back on subject which is health care. Judging by your rants about the great insurance, pension, on and on you got for your hard work. You are obviously very concerned with hard work and the company you work for. Do you even have any idea what this bill is going to do to companies? How poorly this is going to effect their provided insurance? How much it's going to cost employees so companies can compensate their out of pocket?

gliver18 - On word can completely sum you up. Idiot. It's that simple. I've owned GM vehicles my whole life so you're welcome for the support. But of course, you are the typical disgruntled worker that wants to blame all the problems that occurred on everyone else. Writing a book in your posts of pure lies and assumptions only makes you look dumber post by post. Keep up the good work.

It is obvious you have a hard time staying on topic, lets take it one step at a time for you.

1. Do you know greed is wanting more that you have? Your earlier posts of reps being greedy is false, they want you to keep what is yours and for them to keep what is theirs. Now that you understand the difference please explain how their stance is greedy compared with people who WANT others to pay for their medical insurance.

2. The UC (unemployment compensation?) you talk about is not wages...it is unemployment. Employers pay into an insurance pool (not completely accurate, but close enough for this), and if a person looses a job/gets laid off, or whatever funds are sent to them until their job becomes available again or they find something else.

Wages are paid to a person for the work/service they provide.

Now that you understand the distinction between the two, please explain what the law has to do with your belief that republicans suppress wages...

I guess people like you think you saved some money and got a better buy but in your greedy little head you didn't stop to think that all this money that you paid for that foreign car went back to Corporate Japan, Korea,Thailand were they pay there workers low wages for your greedy ways to prosper at there expense, plus these same foreign car makers don't have to pay taxes here now more profits go back to Corporate Japan but now since they dont pay taxes yours will go up, not only that we have to raise more money through taxes to have our Army, Air Force and Navy to protect there countries. Sparky, in addition to exploiting workers they dump all fluids and waste from manufacturing into the ocean or desert so that you in your greed you think you got a deal. Now at the same time they build manufacturing plants in the Southern state were Right to Work Laws (antiworker, pro corporate)apply. They will cherry pick and hire only young workers were they dont have to worry about healthcare expense so much, what will happen as they get older. Sparky, did you know that after 9/11 GM donated millions of dollars of charity to New York and all the foreign manufactures gave none. Qualified experts have designated some GM cars and trucks as best in there field. I blame a lot on all the news media for not telling this side of the story but people with your way of thinking in their own jealousy and greed have actually helped destroy themselves. I dont know if you have a foreign car Sparky but it seems in your jealousy and greed you support that side of the fence. Now I already know that you will say that Dem Pres Clinton signed NAFTA Bill but it was your old buddies again (Gingrich & Contract America)Leaders of Republican House and Senate that had overwhelming majorities in both houses that contrived this unfair trade bill and was veto proof so in the interest of bipartisanship Pres Clinton signed the bill. That's my definition of Greed Sparky, somehow I dont think this will change your mind & yes I am a angry Democrat in that I didn't work hard enough to keep your buddies out of office, the ones that destroyed the middle class, the ones that are now being exposed as hate mongers, racists and outright liars. I do feel quite happy that healthcare will soon be law and will help a multitude of needy people but in your greed you will never see. One more thing, your extreme right wing teabaggers are ashamed to admit that they are Republicans but I think most people see the light now at what they represent. Nothing more than the Ku Klux Klan but instead of wearing the white sheet they now wear the suit and tie. The sad thing is that this paper is also a right wing Rag and I enjoy so much exposing your half truths, misinformation, outright lies, fabricated myths and denial of the truth.

andy linogue I guess you were to busy checking for typos but if you had looked in earlier posts RetiredAirBag said that I had used the plural form of why do Repubs pass laws that suppress wages and RetiredAirBag asked me if that was true I should at least name two laws that did just that. Of course any proof or fact that you tell RetiredAirBag according to him is just the opposite. What in the world did this idiot do in high school with Geometry and all the facts and theorems involved.I bet that was quite a show being so stubborn and not accepting facts so that he could move on in the course.By the way Mister Air Bag, that 1932 UC law still applies to the present day and will go up or down depending on who is in power and I guess The U S Dept of Labor according to you is a poor source of information, only you, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Fox entertainment, Heritage Foundation etc.. are the source of absolute fact. How come non-partisan groups (they study the truthiness of a claimed fact by the different parties) composed of equal amounts of Dems and Repubs and 75% of the time they find that your sources are usually nothing more than smear , outright lies and/or propaganda. Sources like FOX, Limbaugh and the rest, there facts are usually debunked . How come Huffington Post, Keith Olberman are seldom debunked. Have you ever noticed that NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC will have both sides giving the news and do not so rudely interrupt one party as FOX always seem to do, and then call themselves fair and balanced. Only idiots like you believe in this type of discourse. Another thing AirBag when CEO'S, Bankers, Wall street types make 500 times more income than there employees (50's & 60's it was only 40) and than receive huge tax breaks under Republican policies I call that GREED. Also Airbag when multinational corporations because of Republican policies are allowed in off shore tax havens to not pay there fair share thats GREED. Right wing Repubs have always supported this anti worker pro corporate agenda but in your mental state you dispute this fact as only you know the facts (no matter if its true). Once again AirBag I would love to cram the whole health care bill down your biased throat because it was your buddies that destroyed the American Middle class with the Bushy years and there pro right wing agenda

gliver18 - I'm done with your circle routine. You are one angry Democrat that needs a hug. As far as unions go. What happened to GM is a prime example. That's greed my friend. Need I say more? Brag about your hard work and all your other crap all you want. I got news for you pal. There's plenty of people that work just as hard if not harder than you.

gliver18, for the sake of trying to have a conversation let’s start with the crux of your earlier statements; greed. It is unfortunate you aren’t aware of the definition of greed.

Greed means to want more of something. Most conservatives want you to keep what is yours and for them to keep what is theirs. The only greed being displayed in this argument, health care, is those that want something from others to include the government.

I suggest you slowly back away from Huffpost, DailyKos, and Keith and try some intellectual thoughts of your own. Until then and until you stop the wingnut talking points nothing you utter will be considered relevant to debate.

Again your union talking points that right to work laws supress wages is superfluous to your stated contention; "How come republicans pass laws to suppress wages". There are plenty of facts on the other side of this argument to discredit it.

I am very interested in how you think an unemployment compensation law from 1932 in anyway suppresses wages.

RetiredAir and andre linogue, (Wisconsin Unemployment insurance Law) (passed Jan 1932) now chapter 108 of the statutes. (one law)
Right TO Work Laws are statutes enforced in 22 U.S. States.They are mostly southern and western states but Iowa also has this law. These laws were started by southern industrialist's and right wing factions or groups to lower wages (that means suppress, retiredair)and also to make worker safety and health more endangered. In 2003 the U S Dept of Labor found that workplace fatalities /100,000 were highest in Right to Work States.So who is the babbler, Well once again there are the facts but I'm sure that they will buzz right by you two because neither can comprehend. To try and have conversation with people like you and have to go back to the very beginning for the most basic of arguments are very taxing and I think possibly a great waste of time, however it is maddening to read your comments on most matters because I fear you will never catch on. All the proof and true facts in the world will not change your stubborn minds

Cite actual legislation, something that can be verified. You are the one that says it happens...

Its useless to talk to somebody when they dont even acknowledge facts as facts, how can you have a discussion with ignorant people that have know way of understanding even the most basic points that reasonable people do understand. I have read enough of your posts on other issues and I think that you are quite possibly mentally ill.Your reasoning is even to the right of Hannity and Limbaugh and just doesn't make sense. I would hope that maybe you three could go to Costa Rica, thats were Limbaugh said he wanted to go if health care was passed, oh and by the way I hear they have a so called socialist health care system down there. Maybe you can ask Rush why he likes it down there but not in the U.S. Man, I still can't believe that you actually think Right to Work doesn't suppress wages, that really takes the cake

btw, have you looked up the definition of greed yet?

Your idea of what happens and reality are very different. Cite actual legislation, something that can be verified. You are the one that says it happens...or is this more of your insane babbling.

What about UC benefits, When Dems are in power they go up but when the Repubs get in power they suppress those wages and benefits for the worker. Two laws for you right there

Right to work does not supress wages, get off the union talking points, these are as useless as your other talking points.

Still waiting for just two laws...

What about Right to Work laws, all repubs support them and in every state that they are enacted they were put there to suppress wages. Thank god the wisconsin dems have kept it out of wisconsin but beware, the Mark Neumans want it badly

"How come republicans pass laws to suppress wages"
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Really? Since you did use a plural please provide just two examples where a law, any law, was passed that "supressed wages".

"Otherwise we end up back where we started; those who can afford health care pay for those who don't have insurance but seek necessary treatment."
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I see this is difficult for you to grasp...this is exactly what this program does do.

Sparky if your a worker and think a republican will help you then you are dumber than I originaly thought. How come republicans pass laws to suppress wages, laws that when your laid off they want to give the minimum uc pay benefit to you for less weeks in a year but you also have to work longer to get these benefits. Dems do the opposite, more pay and more weeks receiving and less weeks to work in a year to qualify for benefits. Repubs try to get right to work laws in a state so that they can suppress your wages and maxify their profits. Sparky where does profit end and greed begin. Sparky I just called you out on your stupidy and ignorance but somehow I dont think in that thick skull of yours that you will ever catch on. I almost think that you arn't even a worker, just a phoney plant pretending to be one and are really a company man sitting on the bigger boss's lap doing a lap dance for him. Most real workers see through the deceitful lies that republicans tell about being friendly to Labor but I would hope through education that even a ignorant spin docter like you might learn someday. by the way, are you proud of the tea-baggers and are you one, bet you are. You have been called out and hope to meet you someday. Give the boss a kiss,

You have to love the fact that all of those for this version of health care reform want subsidies from their neighbors which will pay for the majority of their health care costs...make as much sense as your version.

"require individuals to purchase health care. "
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Your argument is without merit, all will be required to be covered, not all will be required to purchase.

andre, I didn't read anything in the article which would cause a court to issue an injunction.
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Logically andre, everyone needs health care at some point so wouldn't it make sense to require individuals to purchase health care. Otherwise we end up back where we started; those who can afford health care pay for those who don't have insurance but seek necessary treatment. I know thats a difficult theory for you to grasp but think of it the same way the government requires each male individual over the age of 18 to register for the draft, or wage earners to pay taxes or property owners to pay property tax or drivers to buckle their seatbelt or... well I hope you get the idea.
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You have to love the fact that all of those against health care reform are either receiving subsidies from employers or our government which pay for the majority of their health care costs.

..and you just proved your complete ignorance. Republicans are union haters and rich. You crack me up. I seem to remember many people at GM making a lot more than me an many others. They must be rich Democrats and believe in a hard days work!!!

Oh..I see!! It got yo a great pension, health care and it was from hard work. All the things you tried calling me out on earlier. HA! How absolutely hilarious. By the way, I really don't have much against the unions other than the fact that you don't want people telling you want you can or can't do, yet health care is suppose to be the opposite. Again, who's the spin doctor here?
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I've been completely honest. I'm Republican. I'm not rich. I agree there's certain things wrong with our health care. I don't like this new system. I'm not retired and have nothing to do with a union or pension.
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You my friend, we're just called out.

gliver18, you lost your argument long ago, but for the sake of trying to have a conversation let’s start with the crux of your latest statements; greed. It is unfortunate you aren’t aware of the definition of greed.

Greed means to want more of something. Most conservatives want you to keep what is yours and for them to keep what is theirs. The only greed being displayed in this argument, health care, is those that want something from others to include the government.

I suggest you slowly back away from Huffpost, DailyKos, and Keith and try some intellectual thoughts of your own. Until then and until you stop the wingnut talking points nothing you utter will be considered relevant to debate.

Well sparky my boy the union worked out fine, got me a great pension, got me a great wage, got me a great health care plan and best of all mr spin docter, it also gave a lot of my ex coworkers the same well paid, pension benefits included and health care although they did have to move to other cities. Thank god for the union sparky, they are there for a good cause. I see that you finally exposed yourself as a union hater though, isn't that what Republicans stand for, (bust the unions)I guess even you are to ashamed to admit that you are a phony republican although I see a lot of your talking points are solid Republicanism. I guess people like you that claim to be a worker and think a republican will help you is like a poor jew in the 1940's locked up in a boxcar hollering at the nazi guards to please call Hitler, he'll help us. Actually a person like you makes me sick with your phoney spin doctering. Oh I forgot, unions must be socialist's or commies too but thank god for the good life they gave me. Honest days pay for a honest days work

By the way...I see all your posts are basically bashing Republicans and supporting guys like Mike Sheridan. Says a lot about you. How's the union working out?
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Must be fun bashing instead of trying to make sense.

gliver18 - Let me explain this to you really simple. Go back down, read my posts again. I'm too tired to re-post them. After you do that, you will then realize how you just completely spun everything I said, in order to make your self sound better. You will also realize you just completely lied about what I said.
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Do you feel better now? You still sound like a moron for claiming that Republicans are all rich. Hence where my actual moron comment came from. Not from where you said it did. Oh...also find where I said I didn't want to help people, yadyadayada and all the other neat stuff you made up. Sleep tight. Don't let the big bad make believe monster scare ya.

sparky I got to say you are quite the spin doctor. Thats a dead giveaway for being a right wing Republican tea-bagger supporter. Lets see, if they don"t agree with you then your stupid and a moron, your words. Your the only one that works hard and you deserve what you have, but I guess that other people that work hard dont deserve health care or a decent wage, only you. I see you really like throwing that socialist word out at people who want to help other people. Shades of the late Sen McCarthy from Wis in the 1950's, he tried to say most everyone except him and his Republican buddies were socialist and communist. Didn't work then and it won't work now with spin docters like you accusing everyone of being one, I guess its like an incurable disease, some genes just won't go away. By the way instead of believing everything FOX news tells you why don't you check out politifact.com or factcheck.org for non-partisan source for truth instead of your preaching downright lies handed down from Limbaugh, Hannity..etc so that idiots & morons (your words)like you might possibly get educated. Key word here for Idiots, Morons and spin docters it is a non-partisan fact finding organization for issues we are discussing, you might be surprised, try it

If health bill is so great then why doesnt the president, congress etc have to live with it? No they have there own health care plan. maybe because those making 200,00 plus will have to pay higher taxes to support it and they make more that,

gliver18 - What the hell are you talking about? Are completely nuts? Because I don't support his health care bill, I'm a horrible person? First of all you don't know me. Second of all, you are completely wrong on everything else you guessed. I don't collect a pension, I'm not remotely close to being retired. I'm middle class and not rich and don't own a helicopter. If your read more on some of the posts, I've been a big supporter of teachers and law enforcement and don't agree with what people make. So now that you sound like a bigger idiot than before, let's clear something up. Don't ever compare me to someone in a video that behaves that way. I could easily find a video of a bunch of democrats acting like two year olds, but I know better than to think everyone acts that way. Ironic that I also know numerous democrats that are against this because they now there is too much that can go wrong. Walk before you run.
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As far as calling me greedy. No, it's called hard work and I'm very generous even though I don't make a ton. Now go try and stereotype someone else. Maybe start by looking in the mirror.

Spark I just can't hardly believe the gall and hypocrisy of people like you. If we as taxpayers as group come together collectively and build better roads for the better of the community, build schools and pay good wages to teachers for the better of education, pool our monies together collectively again for a police dept and fire dept to protect us, raise our monies again to support our armed forces existence collectively as a group, you are saying we are all commies or are you selectively picking out just certain social things and then labeling them communist inspired. To go against our fallen brothers and sisters to me is unamerican and loathsome, not to help those in need (health care) or to deny decent wages for a liveable wage tells me you have all qualities of a right wing Republican. (Greedy, Ignorant& Gullible), you probably want the guy who makes min wage to go defend our country in an unjustified war, lose his life or limb so that you can profit at his expense, let me guess here, you might be a retired worker collecting social security (but calling it socialism) or you could be a worker that collects a pension but always voted for the party that was against pensions, I dont know maybe you got your own helicopter and dont want us peons to be able to get around. Didn't I just see at a republican tea bagger rally (in Ohio)several tea baggers insult a man sitting down on the ground with parkinsons disease calling him a phony and an actor, did I not see racist activity against several Dem legislators plus spitting, how about name calling by republicans in the house & encoursging civil discourse in the house and you guys have the nerve to call Dems liars and full of malice. spark I dont know how you can live with yourself supporting these type of people shame on you

Why did our ranking elected officials opt out of this health care plan? We are paying for it should they not get exactly what the rest of us get?
Amendment 28 Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators or Representatives, and Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States .
Is this bill really Constitutional?

spark: right on.

...and like I said. The moron comment stands for anyone that thinks Republicans are all rich. Just because someone doesn't agree with a social agenda doesn't make them rich. Everyone has different views. Does that make everyone that's a democrat poor? I didn't think so.

gliver18 - You summed it up best. Social justice. Or a better term is socialism. I will not get on board with something I disagree with. That's the beauty of this Country. I don't have to do anything. By the way, ignorant and gullible are those that voted for the supposive change because the change they're going to get is going to be a rude awaking. Premiums and taxes are going to be higher than ever. As far as my designer clothes comment. You need to wake up because it's a lot worse than you make it out to be.

For all you against the reform (including you andre), check out this link.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1914...

RetiredAirForce, When all your arguments use FOX(FAUX) news propaganda as fact I would call that Ignorant and Gullible, Why don't you try factcheck.org for the lies and false myths that both sides do but overwhelmingly over abused by the Republicans and FAUX news. Your party that you support is now run by the extreme right wing of which it appears you identify with. Let me guess, you are probably an unjustified war supporter, possibly trickle down theory supporter, Did you support the Republicans in the house trying to incite the gallery, spiteful name calling by these same Republicans against fellow Dem members which has never been done at this level before in the house, where has civil discourse gone and which party started this venomous retort, The Tea party spitting on members of congress and vulgar name calling. I suppose you believe there are death panels and OBama isn't a citizen, Dems are both Commies and Nazi's and Socialist's, all lies and misinformation perpetuated by your source and now have been debunked by several independent sources, Shame on you, get out of the living room and quit checking facts with FAUX news as your source. They appeal only to the Greedy, Ignorant and Gullible

Clearly lives in the Divided States of America. Name calling always makes me want to stop and hear what you have to say. This country has lost all conversation skills. Sad that it has become an "either, or" society with no compromise from either side. And even sadder that there is no compassion from anyone. "We won!! Deal with it!!" --that is poor sportsmanship. It doesnt matter who says it.

Social Security and medicare were tough sells, and now health reform. Its about time... Good job Dems

Lets see if I can make it more clear for the ignorant and gullable and yes even you spark. I should have said most of the rich Republicans are greedy at the expense of the poor and needy and most of the rich Democrats are for social justice. There are exceptions to this rule and that is why I now say most so that morons can understand. Once again MOST Americans that need health care do not wear designer clothes, smoke or have expensive cell phones. Although some do, most Americans make to low of a wage to buy health care, have a preexisting condition or have lost a job do economic conditions caused by Republican support of costly unjustified war, tax breaks for your wealthy friends (corporate welfare)to name a few. These people need help, so quit nitpicking on the small things and get on board and do the right thing and support this legislation. Maybe a moron can understand that not unless you might be ignorant and gullable with a little bit of hypocrisy thrown in there

Gee, I don't know andre, many states force drivers to purchase auto insurance. How is this any different?
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Several years from now we will look back and wonder why it took us so long to reform health care. Better late than never.
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Republicans will try to paint those who voted for health care reform as traitors or worse. To millions of Americans and future generations those same individuals will be viewed as hero's.

gliver18 after you start getting your facts from a reliable source I would be glad to have a conversation about them.

Just another reason for the government to raise my taxes. It will be real fair too when the nontax payer will get better health care coverage than I can get through working.

Gary, I guess that you are happy that all of the lies, hatred, and malice passed the house votes.

As the mother of a child with a pre-existing condition (ulcerative colitis/crohns) I couldn't be happier with last nights vote. My son will lose his medical coverage (through dad's employer) this fall because of his age. After 5 years and many medications he's finally found one that keeps his symptoms under control. Get this: without insurance Walgreens would chage us just under $ 4,000 a month! Don't get me started about drug companies, what a rip off! We've started looking into private insurance plans but with crohns as a diagnosis they won't even consider covering him. Without his medication the only alternative would be to have his entire colon removed! I don't know all the pros and cons about the bill but frankly...I don't care! I just want medical coverage for my son!

What cracks me up the most, is how some of you talk about people and you categorize everyone like they're not human because of their political sides. This is the exact same reason this Country is failing. Seriously, if you meet someone and find out they are Republican or Democrat and you hate them because they don't agree with your side, you are an uneducated moron. If you also think everyone that is Republican is rich, it shows how dumb you really are. You know that's not true and makes absolutely zero sense.
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Yes our health care has issues. No this plan will not fix it. Yes something needs to change. No this isn't the answer. No someone that buys designer clothes, has the most expensive phone and smokes cigarettes yet pulls out their support card doesn't deserve hand me out insurance. PERIOD. No should I have to support their stupidity.

I don't understand how the Republicans can try to destroy the health care bill because it will raise the deficit. Aren't they the party that ran the national debt an additional 5 trillion dollars during the Bush years on a war that the Republican leaders had to lie and fabricate myths for justifacation. Now these same people told how many lies and myths about health care that now have been debunked. Lets see Dems & health care (850 Billion) Republicans and Bush years (5 trillion). Seems to me that Republicans represent Greed, like to mislead the ignorant and and take advantage of the gullible by spreading one lie after another. Republicans, the party of McCarthy, Nixon, Hoover and NO( against social security, medicare, decent liveable wages, health care, civil rights, women rights) and benefits for the rich, (tax breaks, suppress workers rights and wages so that greedy CEO"S , Bankers and wall street types can have bigger homes , yachts, homes in exclusive gated communities and golf courses. So to help these unamericans, just keep listening to propaganda on FOX news and vote Republican.

I guess that some of you are disappointed that all of the lies, hatred, and malice did not kill health insurance reform. Don't you know that love conquers all evil?

All the name calling....LOL
American ends in I CAN
Republican ends in I CAN
Democrat ends in A RAT
I guess names do fit after all.

NVgrf still waiting on you showing where dental coverage is in the bill...if as you say I should listen to those that complain of having no dental coverage, the least you can do is show where its addressed in any of the legislation you support. Or are you just displaying how you care more than others because you think that fixes things.

repliberal- As I posted I am not a republican nor am I against reform this bill is my problem, have you read it? I have read as much as my little brain can handle. My husband is disabled however he does not want to be dependant on the government to handle his care. He has private disablity insurance that he opted to purchase while he was still able to work. It is not a great monthly benefit but it covers his living costs and most doctor costs. I am all for reform especially with the drug companies, I get it, if you are not in our shoes how can you get it? Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, I cannot believe Pelosi compared this bill to the thoughts of our forefathers. Nowhere did they say mandate our healthcare and force it down our throats. Again, all for health care reform however it must be in harmony with our Constitution. JMO this bill is not. Again repliberal this is JMO

Needed Change????? Have you even tried to understand this boondoggle of a bill? How many of us are going to pay for this in increased taxes? Does anyone really know? They say its only going to affect you if you make over $250,000 a year...yea sure and that rates right up there with " I am from the government and I am here to help you" Now lets talk deficit heres another $950 billon that we don't have. Another billon here another billion there what the heck is another billion between left wing socialists. All you left wing idiots should be thrilled and if your real happy maybe for this dollar or some food stamps you will go play on the highway. Its been a year and we have three more to go..God help us. Guess who is going to be crying in November as the people punish the morons who were more interested in making Barry look good than listening to the people. HEY Barry just who just became a lame duck! Could we CHANGE the channel now I am really sick of this movie...tax and spend tax and spend its like a bad re-run of a bad B movie

Thank you God!

"pukes"? "kooks"? My, my, Jayem, where's your sportsmanship? Some needed change has arrived. Deal with it! I know, I know...first your health care, then your guns.

Boy we are in for a real treat now, I think this was a big mistake.

Yes, I support health care reform.

Anyone who thinks the government should run health care has never been to the motor vehicle department.

janesvillegirl72.. you obviousley dont get it.. you have a disabled husband? and medicene is 1200 a month, well if you dont support this bill ,, well you might as well not bitch then.. the republicans have done nothing but hurt your husband, and yes that is a fact, the drug companies have donated millions to your party. paid ceo millions and you worry... well, without change dont worry about spending a few extra days on this earth because you wont be covered, thanks for saving me the money. maybe you and paul ryan can get together and have lunch on him as he kisses you good bye.. wow.. you people are screwed up.. and dont get it.. read the bill all you want and if you have a pre existing coverage that isnt all ready covered thru a different ins plan, go find one that will buy there insureance,, you wont... fear mongoring all it is,,,,, oh by the way,, paul ryan has had tax payer insureance ever since he was a little kid... go figure, didnt bother his family then did it?

I never said that I supported this bill. In fact, I think we need to be talking "end of life" for the current health care system and really start all over. And I don't mean the band-aid "start over" that the Republicans are pushing, I mean, start the entire system over from scratch. Employer based health care worked when people stayed with the same company their whole lives and health care costs were manageable, but it's a new century and we need a health care system that works for the way things are NOW. The health care system and the economy as a whole seem to be moving towards the third-world-type corrupt elite ruling class with everyone else living in poverty. I don't know what the answers are, but I do know that tax cuts to the rich did NOT create jobs, as the current recession (following the Bush tax cuts) proved. Their money trickled right overseas to buy luxury items and invest in emerging markets, not to create jobs here. I also know that every day people are losing their health insurance and with it their ability to access needed basic health care. I hope that this bill (if it passes) is a step in the right direction, but I'm not so sure.

We have sent millions of dollars to these third world countries. We have sent medical supplies to these third world countries. We have sent food to these third world countries. And yet, they remain third world countries because it is easier to receive then do what it takes to make their countries health care better or their lives.
I am not against helping the poor and no way am I rich or even middle based on my current income, but there are too many POOR who are abusing the system meant to help the real poor. This health care bill is just another enabler by our out of control government to insure that the status stays the same. Enjoy the health care line up. People complain now, just wait till this really goes into effect. Then, who are you going to blame? You wanted change, your gonna get it but not the way you expected.

republiberal-all of us idiots that are against it have our own reasons, I have a preexisting condition, my husband is disabled and falls into that big sucking donut hole. I will not however trade my liberty for a few extra days on earth. I spent much time this weekend reading pertinent parts of this bloated healthcare bill, it will do us no favors. I also spent some time reading the add ons and corrections, I found it interesting that there were so many pages regarding only indians, in fact the language used made one think it is a land grab since the government will own the land they help the indians build the clinics on and then lease them back to the tribe? How nice for them, if I am incorrect please correct me, I would love to be incorrect on this one. My stomach is rolling watching the coverage of this event. I am not a republican and I do not endorse this bill. This bill and I am sure most of those that I never took the time before to review are insane mountains of legalese meant to confuse and fatigue the reader into submission. You could never run a business that way, why should we pay our government that cant compete fiscally with the private sector. JMO make health care providers give actual costs to patients in real numbers not morse code. Let us shop around, get some healthy competition going. I think most people would be willing to drive a little to send a message to the higher cost institution. Also stick a fork in the drug companies, they have had a huge impact on the state of health care costs. There is absolutely no reason why my husbands medication should cost 1200.00 per month for one prescription, what is this stuff made of? Well I know what it is made of and cannot for the life of me understand why an older drug (r & d should be paid for by now) should cost that much, you want to regulate something to feel you are contributing, regulate that.

If waiting lines worry you look at what the result of heath care reform in Mass, they have the longest wait for care in our nation, not to mention the highest rates/costs...and they have 97% of the residents with insurance.

It shows how Americans are waiting in line for days to receive basic health care. This is the same way that health care is delivered in Third World countries. In fact, the same organization does these clinics in Third World countries.

How does that news story support either of your statements?

RAF, they are not polar opposites, they are the real differences between the haves and the have-nots. IF you have money or insurance, you can get the best care in the world. If you don't, you end up waiting in line at a free clinic just like people in a third world country. (Reference below)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/health...

NVgrf, show us where in the healthcare bills being voted on today dental coverage is mentioned...then we will talk relevance if you wish.

RAF...Why don't you spend a little time listening to folks like carlitosway who have been there instead of pontificating. I am sure you don't have a clue what the things he describes are like.

"you got me on the fear-mongering. LOL! It doesn't seem like fear-mongering when feels like truth"
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Really, when you claim "we will be like a third-world country", and then say "here, we can drive a few blocks or miles and have the best care in the world. But all we do is complain about it"...makes me wonder what you really do think; as these two statements are polar opposites.

janesvillemom Third world countries HUH HUH HUH !Right here in good old Janesville if you don't have insurance you are screwed, try and get dental for a 9 year old boy with a severe toothache and see what you have to have up front My grandson has been denied everywhere we call without 350 dollars up front we paid it then they said to come back as they only x-rayed it and now they want another 350... well his mom don't have that kind of money and a medical card is not accepted at any dentist in Janesville if they have their so called "quota" of very very few M.A. patients. The cost of Mercy medical treatment is absurd when a generic tylenol costs 8 dollars for 1 pill on your bill "come on"maybe more now that was a couple years ago..We need to quit worrying about other countries and take care of our own. Not one other country had a benefit for the USA in 2001, now did they HELLO wake up and look outside your doors right here at home and see the real truth of poverty homelessness, and uninsured little KIDS..... As far as the reform No comment.....Other then it needs a complete overhaul and I don't know if this reform is the one.

The suggestion that Ms Janesvillemom just expressed is very similar to the language that was in the original house version of the bill passed in November. That bill talked about levels of coverage in insurance exchange. You could opt for the basic package. It could also be a public or private plan.

I'm not sure if this same thing will evolve in the implementation of the senate bill that is about to pass, but there is clearly no longer any public option.

We all will face decisions on how far to go with care. What this bill does is to let many have a chance in the first place.

RAF, you got me on the fear-mongering. LOL! It doesn't seem like fear-mongering when feels like truth (and that goes both ways, I'm sure).

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The issue that no one wants to talk about or address is the cost of health care and WHY it is so high. The advances in life saving medicine are amazing, but also very expensive. Even a few decades ago, your chances of surviving cancer were MUCH lower than they are today. But those advances are a huge contributor to the rising costs of health care for everyone. Are the lives prolonged by advanced treatments worth the cost to everyone else? Call it death panels if you want, but there has to be a limit to how much we spend on saving lives, especially when the prognosis is poor. End of life care would be best done at home with the support of hospice, not in a hospital. When our friends lost their 2 year old to cancer, they tried all kinds of treatments, but when it became clear that nothing was working, they took him home and had some wonderful family time before he died in their arms.
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When I think about third world countries and the "health care" they get, it helps put this into perspective for me. In some countries, having access to antibiotics and basic wound care would be considered progress. Forget about trying to get treatment for cancer or anything even mildly serious. Yet here, we can drive a few blocks or miles and have the best care in the world. But all we do is complain about it.
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My idea is that the US should have a single payer "basic" system. Everyone should have access to doctors for basic care, the routine stuff (check ups, prenatal care, injuries, minor surgery like appendix, etc.) and if you want more than that, then you buy insurance or pay for it yourself. At least then, we would be better than a third world country in that everyone would have access to basic care, regardless of ability to pay.

i hope you idiots that are against it, lose someone due to pre existing condition, then when you visit there grave!! You can tell them how proud you are for being a republican, or maybe Paul Ryan can go with you. sorry so blunt, but you morons that are so one party rush listners dont think outside the box do you? NO NO NO.... so live with it, and wash your hands of it.. Or better yet have rush and glenn go with you.. they can bring the flowers..

Darwin, what is there to read and understand in this quote. It speaks for itself. I just thought someone that is posting might like it. Sorry if I offended you. JMO

If we get the same coverage as congress does at the same cost, then yes, I'm all for it. Or why don't we make it law that congress will get the same coverage as this bill they want to pass.

"Next up is the legal battle with the Republicans claiming they can not use reconciliation rule?"
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David, you are not in touch with procedures are you. There is no need for reconciliation after the vote on the senate bill in the house is made. After that bill passes, and is signed by the president, it becomes law. The reconciliation matter which then goes to the senate will be fairly dead on arrival. The only reason reconciliation was brought up in the first place was to secure dem votes on the passed senate measure; after they get their vote there will be no one in the leadership that will want to keep this issue out front in the political process. It will be dead and gone.

David, yes dealing with ifs are neat. That still does not support, in anyway, how cutting taxes increases unemployment or the uninsured as you stated.

Add Andre to the list of no sharp objects! He tends to forget that the "will of Americans" regarding health care reform was clearly indicated in November, 2009.

You Betcha NVgrf. Nancy will declare it passed with the same gavel that was used to declare Medicare passed. The irony of this is that if the greedy insurance companies had not started to increase rates like crazy, a few more votes would have gone the other way.

A truly historic day. We still have to watch out for Senate shenanegans but several key senators have assured the house that the bill will pass. Next up is the legal battle with the Republicans claiming they can not use reconciliation rule??

Keep the sharp objects away from RAF...the health care bill is a lock to pass! Thank God we still have progressive thinking Americans.

Ok Air Force. When you work for a firm that has benefits and you lose your job, you can apply for insurance on your own as you so stated. However, in today's world, the cost is likely to be prohibitive. If you take expensive meds that were once paid for by your coverage, the insurance companies will deny you coverage or make you pay through the nose. You are not guaranteed to get coverage under a private plan that is not issued by an employer. As a result, many opt to go uninsured.

I'm retired too. My firm suddenly dropped support for health care insurance for spouses. Try applying for coverage for a 60 year old spouse with health problems.

Mr. Linoge: I'm afraid you may be right. Should enough Republicans get elected, I'm sure we will see an effort to repeal this bill. I hope it holds up. On the other hand, I'm not up to speed on the lawsuit details? I've seen and heard claims the bill is unconstitutional. Why? Is Medicare unconstitutional? We all kick in on that?

Daivd, cutting taxes does not keep anyone from paying their own insurance, if anything, having more disposable income increases the opportunity to purchase insurance. Try again.

Easy question. Tax cuts forced the government to cut programs in education, support of R/D, and other areas that supported good jobs. The Wall Street fiasco led to the worst recession in our lifetime. Many people dropped their health care insurance because they could not pay for it and the companies are now raising rates to collect more from the remainder who still have insurance.

Just In-- The NY Times is reporting the votes are in hand. The deed is done.Rep Ryan can only talk so long. Sorry Paul!

"there may be fewer unemployed and uninsured today."
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Dave are you serious? How does not confiscating more of others money to the coffers of the government lead to unemployment and uninsured?

Ah, the famous Jack Kemp. For the uninformed, he was a footback quarterback who became a congressman from NY, then became known as the godfather of the supply-side economics guys; some called the theory trickle down economics. Reagan loved it and it led to tax cut after tax cut. Since then, we are broke.

I happened to run into Kemp once; in a restaurant near his huge home near Vail that costs millions. He had another one in a private area of Montana and was worth many millions when he passed away a while back. I guess not much trickled down from him.

Had we not passed a few of the tax cuts and made key Wall Street deals in the early 2000's there may be fewer unemployed and uninsured today.

Dear justme, Mr Kemp contradicts himself when he says we tax investment but subsidize non work. Investment income is non-work income. Inheritance is non-work income. Please read and understand the quote before you worship it. Paris Hilton, the Khardasians, Spencer, Heidi all earned their income and status? The Republicans want to create a new Aristocracy / Theocracy where their ideology is that if your rich God must love you more and you must then deserve what you inherited.

Health care is already an entitlement. Emergency rooms by law have to provide care, which is why those who don't have health care use it. When they don't pay, the hospital subsidizes the cost by charging others more or the county has to pick up the tab. This emergency room health care system is the most expensive system.

It would be nice to have some news people who actually read, learn about facts, think and realize that not all sides of a debate are equal. Constantly treating bigoted dimwits as intelligent thoughtful people is a huge waste of time and money.

This dialog is going very well. Mr. Peck should be commended for setting it up.

As for the comments on student loans, I agree it seems fishy and do not know why its in there. Maybe its because students have been having a very hard time getting loans since the credit meltdown. If they don't get loans, they may have to leave school and then they are not getting coverage. Keeping them in school is thus helpful to the cause. Every bill since the dawn of time has these little adders to pad things and get another vote. That is the way things work and probably will forever.

Many of us have thought hard about our support of this bill. One of the clinchers for me was when I heard how much the head of the United Health Care organization makes. I'm enrolled in their retiree health plan. I saw a claim that he clears $100,000 an hour? I could not believe this so I did some digging. I found the 2005 data and yes, between pay and in stock grants, he cleared $124 million in 2005. That's only a mere $64,000 an hour so maybe the quote was wrong. Maybe he got a raise? True story. Its in the Healthcare Economist web site, Feb 2006.
This guy also benefits when Republicans vote to cut capital gains.

justme46: AMEN TO THAT. Nothing in D.C. ever changes, just the faces.

Just thought you all would find this as true today as it was then. This quote is from a 1989 Readers Digest, written by Jack Kemp:
"In America, we tax work, investment, employment, savings and productivity, while we subsidize non-work, consumption and debt. It is time we start to reverse the trend!" Same then as now, hasn't changed. JMO

Joan: even under this bill you will still be paying for them. The government may mandate that they buy insurance but what if they don't and elect to pay a small penalty--What have you gained? Think about it.
JanesvilleGirl: Because we as citizen's have looked the other way and remained silent. Today, people are starting to realize that when you cast your vote your responsibility doesn't stop at the ballot box. That is the easy way out. Elected officials will take advantage if given the chance because they know that your not paying attention to what they are doing in your name. This bill was a wake up call to the American Public to start looking, listening and asking important questions and let those elected officials no that they can no longer do what they want and expect us to follow like good little sheep.

I am so disgusted with this whole deal. Why have we let it become acceptable political practice to throw additional unrelated (student loans) into the health care bill? If these add ons were such great legislation why can they not stand on their own. JMO the student loan legislation effectively makes these all government sponsored loans and takes away private loans ie: competition. In addition my disgust also includes the issue of parity. Why are certain states allowed additional funds regardless of population. IMO all persons in any all encompassing legislation should have equal benefit. I am not unsympathetic to those in Lousiana but why do we have to continue paying for Katrina over and over again? Again, if this is such wonderful legislation should those people not be adequately covered, why would they deserve more than any other citizen? Allowances for special interests are bogus, but we have allowed it to become common practice because maybe us or ours will benefit from it. I totally agree that our health care system is broken but how about some legislation that we want not what they feel we need. Parity and transparency novel ideal, they preach it but they dont follow through.

Covering a greedy system with tax dollars is not the answer. There is a high cost (charges) before any insurance company sees the bill. This is no reform at all.

Joan that sounds good, until you understand your costs are not going down. The mandated coverages does nothing to lower your cost at all. Because it makes you feel better does not make it a good plan.

One of the problems with the health care reform debate is calling it insurance reform. That is a misnomer. Insurance isn't just a big company that takes your money and pays your doctor bills. It's a large group of people, the insured, that share each other's health care risks. They all pay premiums and they all pay each others' health care costs when and if they arise. If you let a person into the group after they have health issues, how is that fair since they weren't members helping to share the risks and expenses before they needed them? What our government plans with this "reform" is to pay for the health care of people who, for whatever reasons, did not join an insured group and then to force people who don't need heath care yet to join whether they want to or not. That's not insurance. No one is volunteering to join anything with this "reform".

Secondly, our government is the primary reason that health car costs soar. Medicare and particularly Medicaid purposefully underpay for their covered services making health care providers raise prices for private care. Also, the government increases coverage mandates continually, for right or wrong reasons, adding treatments and maximum benefits without regard for costs then blames the "greedy" insurance companies for premium increases to "pad" their "obscene" profits (which average about a 3% return). This reform bill doesn’t address these government caused problems but instead adds to them.

On the subject of a third party, unless we are careful about what kind of people we elect, it won’t make any difference. We’ll just be exchanging one group of self-interested opportunists for another. We need good people to run for office, no matter their party affiliation. We need people with personal integrity. That’s not an easy task. It’s hard to tell what kind of people they are unless you know them, at least initially. But for those who have been around a while, it’s much easier. For instance, we know that if our Assembly representative has been “seeing” a lobbyist who has business before the assembly, that person probably has integrity issues. When we need him to protect our interests, he may be protecting his own instead. That’s not a party problem, that’s a character problem. Here’s another example. If a person cheats on his spouse, he’ll likely cheat his constituents as well. While anyone can be divorced, on the outside we can’t tell who is at fault for the failed marriage since that’s private, if a person has multiple divorces that is an indicator of a character flaw that should be a warning to anyone who may be considering voting for such a person. There are other such indicators like failed businesses, unsteady employment, and criminal and even traffic records. None of these are reasons to condemn a person but they should be reasons to question their fitness for public office. We’ve been far too lax with our choices of people for public office. Creating a new party won’t solve that.

Retired Air Force - I am glad that everyone will be required to have health insurance. As it is, I'm paying for everyone who doesn't have it when they don't pay for their hospital bill.

Gary, have you looked at the rate of Medicare increases? For you to state that insurance rate increases, in the pretense they are evil, and not recognize all costs have gone up is a disingenuous position through partisan eyes.

The answer is not in who pays the bill it is how much the bill is. Until competitive pricing controls are substituted for the political game of we care more so vote for us....nothing will change.

Get your heads out in the sunlight. At a conservative rate of 8-10% per year under the current system, it doesn't take a math major to figure out that it won't be long before your health insurance premiums for a year will cost more than the average house does today. I guess that you are all planning on getting some very generous pay raises over the next ten to twenty years.

This whole health care bill is based on assumptions. What happens if those assumptions fail to materialize? What is the fall back plan?
How long before people will get tired of working their bun's off, to pay their bills while some will sit around expecting to be taken care of, and there or more of those then there are people who really need the help. You say we need to help the helpless, this country has for decades and there will always be those that need help, but we need to get rid of the lazy, do nothings that believe they should live off the hard work and wages of others. You don't need third or fourth parties to get the government in line, you need to get the jerks that believe the system owes them a living and they should be given everything for free while doing nothing to earn that right except be alive. Get rid of them and the people who really need the help will get it.
You know of or have heard or seen people who brag about how they get welfare or unemployement checks by cheating because it is easy to do and why should they work if they can get something for doing nothing. These are the ones who make it hard for the hard working people of this country to get ahead. These are the ones who are taking the food and medical treatment from the poor who need the help. Don't use the excuse that there are no jobs for them because even when there are jobs these shirkers manage to stay out of the work force.

andre that same argument can be made every election. Until voters are willing to make a change nothing changes.

For years elections have come down to the lesser of TWO evils. The two party system has driven this machine into the ground and we are paying for it. Either wake up an realize what the problem is or embrace it....

Brightjade: Cat is short for caterpillar. Caterpillar covers 40,000 retirees and receives subsidies from the government for prescription medications for cat to run the program. The retirees receive a generous coverage with no co-pays. The gov will now tax those benefits. I still say, this health care bill will kill jobs.

This bill from what I am able to understand is another gov boondoggle. Its all so Barry Obama can say he did it its all about Barry's ego. It has nothing to do with the American people having insurance. Its about politics and its poison for all down the road. Did anyone see the little tidbit that Harry Reid put in there? Its called a poison pill where nothing can be changed in this bill ever! So if its a bust we are stuck with it. It seems that most here reject this bill in current form. Now watch and see how Wisconsin's elected representatives vote

janesvillemom: There have been several alternative proposals but none has received the appropriate media attention.

Decoupling healthcare benefits from employment is essential! The cost of any product or service WILL rise if the end user is not the one picking up the check. (Incidentally, our situations are similar except for me dropping my high-deductible health insurance near the beginning of that 700% increase.)

Janesvillemom, no you do not have a right to emergency treatment; it is a law meaning you must be treated. It is a shame people in this country don’t understand what rights are anymore.

You say your friend was in a car accident. I have to ask, as a reasonable person why there was no insurance on the car. That is the purpose of insurance, protection in case of accidents and emergencies.

Personal responsibility goes a long way in this world.

Janesvillemom are you serious? You state fear-mongering is evil. Yet, you have the audacity to write if something is not done we will be like a third-world country where people are dying daily from easily preventable and curable diseases.

I guess the only question, what do you think fear-mongering is?

Gee Eman, do you ever write anything in your own words, or do you just copy and paste the thoughts of others and pass them off as your own?
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/...

First, we NEED health care reform. I think almost everyone agrees that something has to be done or we will be like a third-world country where people are dying daily from easily preventable and curable diseases.
Second, I wish there wasn't so much false information being passed around. So much of what people fear about this bill isn't even true! Fear-mongering is evil.
Third, we need a mandate in order to prevent insurance companies from cherry picking the healthy people and using pre-existing conditions to block access to health insurance. You have to have one, to have the other or people would be able to just buy insurance when they get sick...which would drive up the costs for everyone else.
Finally, I haven't read the bill and so I cannot say whether or not I support it. Personally, I think a single payer system would be the best, but for some reason, that was never even on the table.
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RAF, you have a right to emergency treatment to save your life, but they don't have to do much. I knew someone in a car accident with no insurance and they left her shoulder dislocated and in need of surgery because she couldn't pay. She got released with her arm in a sling and shoulder obviously messed up. Lost her job because she couldn't work...but at least then she was eligible for Medicaid and got her shoulder fixed.
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As for the person who said everyone should get a job with insurance...good luck! Also what about people who are self-employed? We have a very small business and cannot afford to insure our employees...our own health insurance is so outrageously expensive. Our rates on a high deductible plan went up 700% (yes, that's seven HUNDRED PERCENT), from 2000 to 2007. The system is broken and I wish all the people shouting about how bad this plan is were putting forth some better ideas, but I haven't heard a reasonable one yet.

short your argument is weak. Confiscated contributions are mandatory...if people were given the option to opt out they would.

Well let's see Shorty, you mean the benefits that we have to pay into for while working for 40 years? If it was my choice I would much rather keep my money and worry about my own future, but since the government has already decided to make the decision for me, I will be taking the benefit. Might as well get something for all that money I HAVE TO pay in.
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Come back when you get a better argument.

To everyone that is against government run health care: I'm assuming you won't be accepting Medicare benefits once you are old enough to qualify, right?

34 states are preparing law suits against the mandate of everyone buying ins.
There are too many who think the health care is going to be free.
Next year the Bush tax cuts will end, other Fed taxes will go up, state taxes will go up, drug prices will go up, Insurance benefits will go down and the patient pays more out of their own pocket.
Biden says this is just the beginning. The the gov. will take over the ins. companies.
Its smoke and mirrors folks.
BTW you young ones, Medicare is not free and it does not cover as many things as does private ins. They snag the premium out of the social security check. It goes up every year as does the deductable. = more money from out of pocket.
Many doctors now are refusing to take medicare and medicade patients. Some clinics are making the patient pay the co-pay (out of pocket) before they are allowed to see the doctor.
The plan is to hire thousands of more IRS workers to track down the people that don't buy insurance. But with the law suits coming up maybe that won't happen. States rights and all.
It isn't the repubs who are holding this bill back. The dems have enough members to pass it with out them. It will pass tomorrow with one vote. They are not using the "deem" vote or the roll call vote. They are using the straight vote. If it was so great they wouldn't be having so much trouble with it.

ex-FIB---Have you ever watched the Jerry Springer show? Same type. Just more foul mouthed.

You know, I just got finished watching a episode of "Cheaters" on G4 (yes, I know, I'm kinda embarrassed to admit it). For those of you that don't know what the show is, it's where a person gets proof that their significant other is cheating on them. It has the most white trash, ghetto, toothless losers there is.
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Then it occurred to me - These are the people that we would be giving health care too. People who are too lazy in life to find meaningful employment and contribute to society.
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I do think that health care needs reform. But this bill isn't it. What will happen when employers figure out it's cheaper to pay the $2000 fine for their employees than to offer insurance.
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What will happen when all these people who think there getting "free" health care, all of a sudden realize that they will have to spend over $250 a month to get it or face a fine that can be up to 2.5 percent of their yearly salary?
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What will happen when a system that is overwhelmed right now all of a sudden sees a influx of 35 million people, many who haven't seen a doctor in years.
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No thanks Obama, go back to the drawing board and come back with something more meaningful and you may get my support.

I think most agree something needs to be done. However, I think most agree that the backroom deals, chopped up bill passages, and overall lack of consideration of the long term ramification of the current bill (if you can cal it a bill, it's really bits and pieces of several bills) leaves a bitter taste. Honestly, it doesn't matter what we think, because the bill will be shoved down our throats regardless. Wait until China pulls the plug on U.S. debt due to our complete lack of fiscal responsibility. Even this "bill" passes it doesn't pass the Constitutional smell test and will end up at the Supreme Court. I personally don't think a year of choppy unorganized partisan debate on a bill(s) that reflects 1/8 of our economy is long enough. I'd rather see them debate for a few years and get it right. However, that wouldn't be politically expedient for the Democrats.

DavidG: By taxing the deal the government made in 2003, plus mandating coverage for children up to 26, will cost cat 20% more or 100 million. Cat already covers children up to age 25 if they are in school. The taxes start 2010
David what is cat ... my grandaughter has no insurance and she is 19 going to blackhawk tech, can she get this ya think ty

andre_linoge, even if Pelosi and the rest of the gangrene-infected blood-clot of a Democratic party go down in the flames of eternal damnation which they so richly deserve, it does us no good as the power vacuum will just be filled with the flesh-eating bacteria-infested corpulent Republican party demons from the nether regions. They haven't been humbled by their defeat. They haven't been cleaning house since they lost control of Congress due to their malfeasance which led to Obama being elected. They've been manipulating the masses and fear-mongering their hardest to get back into power and restore the bulk of the theft and treason to their party members.

The Republican and Democratic parties have to both be replaced or both cleaned from the bottom up, and that isn't going to happen as long as the majority of Americans don't insist on ethical candidates and keep deluding themselves . "I think my party is the lesser of two evils" doesn't work. Even if you guess correctly, you're still headed to your eventual destruction. Stop choking to death on the "earmarks" (theft) and "bones" (trivial laws passed to appease the masses) they are throwing to you.

Jvlhomeowner
Mar 19, 2010 at 5:09 p.m.
Suggest removal

I'm with you. Why anyone would be against this boggles my mind. All the pubs say they don't want to pay for this but hell we are paying for it now. I hope this would make it cheaper.

If people don't like the health care, use the Amish loophole.

dont worry about the health care bill chicken little...this story ends like the last...

IF this joke of a bill pass's, B O H I C A !

Wait a minute. My youngest is 32 and grandmacat is on medicare. Caterpillar may want me, no health care baggage.

Absolutely correct! The taxes start in 2010 but Caterpillar's accounting choice is to write 10 years of it off at once. That is why its $100 million. The feds are still giving them something like $18 million a year for the drug programs (after taxes).

Our current health care "system" is sicker than I am. Between heart problems, cancer and diabetes I've come close to death several times in the past 3 years. I know too well how our current health care system doesn't work. Not much "care" is there unless they are holding your billfold after the "cashectomy". One treatment will be done on a timely basis- the bill will arrive promptly after the procedure. The insurance secretary in charge of billing delay (Miss Information) will hold off on paying for insured procedures for at least 3 months, in hopes that we will feel bad and pay out-of-pocket when the hospital bills arrive for the third time. The hospital will not reimburse one with cash, the amount gets forwarded until the next procedure, but only in this calendar year. Also, you can count on making numerous angry calls to low-level subordinates for both the insurance companies and hospitals which will be treated with benign neglect for another 30 days, followed up by statements like " ignore the (4th) statement because the payment has probably" crossed" in the mail. All this comes at a time when you are supposed to be experiencing a restful post-operative recovery from surgery. By this time you are so enraged that you want
to kill someone (not really) with all the adrenaline coursing through your veins and you feel that recovery is certain regardless of the care"given" to you by doctors, nurses and insurance lackeys. I do not see how any new alternative healthcare system could be any worse. I welcome any change that Democrats or Republicans could bring. But I will not hold my breath. My ancestors would have put my near-lifeless body on an ice flow and shoved it out to sea, and this would be more humane that what I've experienced recently. My hope and faith will remain in my heart, not in the hands of politicians, doctors, hospitals or insurance companies. Keep on skating Janesville.

DavidG: By taxing the deal the government made in 2003, plus mandating coverage for children up to 26, will cost cat 20% more or 100 million. Cat already covers children up to age 25 if they are in school. The taxes start 2010.

DavidG. First I don't fall for this! Second, maybe that's the way it should be! Not everyone is going to be the same. It is STILL redistribution! I remember what it was like for everyone 30 years ago. So-called 'poor' now, would have been touted then, as being well-off. I see these people directly in my daily routines, they are hand-out wanting junkies! They all have cell phones and plasma TV's etc. I could lose my job today and have another by the next weekend! I feel for the FEW people who are neither hand-out junkies or rich and seem to fall between the cracks. So lets fix that small problem first. This is still a knee jerk without transparancy or proper representation, by our government. I will not fall for the appeasing talk.

Truecitizen, everyone out there who is healthy enough to move is trying to get a job that has benefits. They just are not out there right now. If you just got out of school, you may be working part time in WalMart. Even young people in their late 20's are having a problem getting work with benefits unless they are in a few key areas (health care, computers, etc).

This bill is for those that are working but can't afford $800 a month. Who can?

David, perhaps you are unaware that under current federal law there is public access to emergency service regardless of ability to pay.

Neobartly, well put. But how dare you take a realistic approach to this thing!

Why is it assumed that Government will heal this? Everything is pulling away from the foundation of democracy! We need the offsetting check and balances in the health care system or else it will have no competatives to keep it striving for quality. Basically, it will become bland and ovverwhelmed if bleeding hearts push for the thing which only sounds good. I feel bad for everyone who will be affected by this in years to come, who have done what they were supposed to as Americans and now they are treated as equal as the scurge in society. It's not tripe, and it is going to happen like this.
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Why not tackle the real problems like tort reform, and oversite of processes and sticking with the plan to make medical records more computerized yada yada? I want my doctors to be paid well anyway! I fear this partisan push will affect many M.D.'s and their decisions to leave the field of medicine. This whole thing sounds like a massive knee-jerk by the governement, with other plans yet to come!
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There is not enough tranparancy in this whole damn thing anyway. And what about the unrelated items attached to it like government take over of the student loan processes? What is going on! I don't want our country to be swoozed into a world government or socialized like China is! Power to the states, private companies competing for quality products in medicine, and good people being rewarded for their efforts! I realize it is big talk, but I believe what Glenn Beck is saying on TV too.
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Want medical insurance? Then get a job which offers it and work hard for it like everyone else is. It is an entitlement thing and I am disgusted.

REJECTED!
However, if they slow down a bit, gather facts from their constituents, comprise an honest and fair reformulization, with-hold added self interest perks and lobbyists push, and stick to the problem at hand; it would be nice.
Yes, One can always Dream...sigh*
We are after all speaking of politicians. Not a presentation for public consideration. Our hands are tied to what this administration crams down our throat. Be very concerned. Remeber who passed what law for your wellbeing in mind (cough) on the next election day that matters.

I don't understand RetiredAirForce's comments? He says we all have guaranteed access to health care? Maybe access to the front door of an ER room, but you are patched up and sent flying without insurance?

We DO NOT have fair, equal access to insurance. If your kid gets cancer at age 10, has trouble getting through school, but beats the cancer, they will be paying for it the rest of their lives because of the pre-existing condition. They have to get into a employee plan to survive. We all want to fix this but to do so we need to grow the pool of bodies that pay insurance. Thats why the plan imposes a fee if you don't have insurance.

Another comment on being under the wing of the insurance companies is true. It would be better if there was a public option; a co-op even better yet.

Correction to the Caterpiller comment. The Senate Bill requires companies to pay tax on their SUBSIDIES that they get from the government to supposedly help pay for prescription drug plans for retirees. Since 2003, the government paid these guys an average of $650 per person in a retiree drug plan per year, TAX FREE. Nice.

Now we are seeing the bills for some of these newer plans (Medicare Advantage, etc) go up higher than traditional medicare. The new bill makes this subsidy taxable. Caterpiller has 40,000 retirees, thus the yearly bill is a bit over $9 million. (tax per person is $233). Their accounting department writes it all off in one year for 10 years and lo and behold, its a $100,000 million bill. Change the accounting stupid.

Excellent example of a stretch of the truth and not telling the whole story.

I am going to admit right away that I don't know a lot about the bill. I don't want government run health care. I would just be really happy if they could figure out a way to control health care cost. There has to be a way to regulate it so that it is affordable and fair to everyone without the government controling it. Maybe in a perfect world.

Reject this bill completely.
No one knows what the TRUE cost of this bill is.
No one knows what is in the bill including the majority of the people voting for it in congress.
Benefits do not take effect for 3 or 4 yrs.
Too many special deals for the select few (see how to buy a vote).
Doctors refusing to take medicade patients.
How does that improve health care?
Doctors retiring rather then work for nothing.
Where are the replacements to take care of the additional 32 million covered? How will this effect the care you receive or expect to receive?
If you have read the bill(s), you will see that the government is involved in almost every aspect of your medical treatment.
You can be fined and jailed for not having health insurance.
Government asks more questions to insure your health insurance you have is meets the government qualifications.
How do you take $500 billion from Medicare/Medicade, spend it on other programs and then say you are going to spend $500 billion to extend the life of Medicare/Medicade? Where is that money coming from?
Do you believe that as business expenses go up because of increased costs in health care, that they will continue to hire or give pay raises? Do you believe that as their expenses go up, they will lower the cost of the products they sell? How long do you think they would stay in business?
Health care does need to be reformed but is this the way-a complete restructuring of the system with the government, and they will be, in charge of your treatment? Do you honestly believe that your costs will go down and if they do, what went up so that you still haven't really gained anything.
And finally, do you believe there won't be organizations/people who will get rich off this well you wonder what happened to all the promises made?

" Anything is better than insurance companies in charge of our healthcare, that's for sure."
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Joan do you understand the government is mandating all have health insurance coverage, this also means all will have insurance companies in charge of their healthcare---the very thing you don't want according to your comments.

Health care bill is a jobs killer. Caterpillar just announced the tax on retires prescription benefits could cost cat 100 million a year.

No. Fannie Med is not reform. This is just another federal entitlement program. Americans want healthcare reform. But overwhelmingly Americans do not want this bill.

It does nothing to restrain costs-infact it increases costs dramatically. It leaves 23 million uninsured. It does not improve access to medicine. It does nothing to mitigate fraud and abuse. All of this and the constitutional question it posses mandating that everyone purchase health insurance. 10 Years of tax increases for 6 years of spending. For me this is mandating that I must by a car today, pay for it for 4 years but I am not going to allow you to drive it until 4 years from now. No thanks.

Here is the deal breaker for me. CONGRESS EXEMPTS THEMSELVES FROM IT.

I vote yes. Anything is better than insurance companies in charge of our healthcare, that's for sure. They need to be reigned in, and there needs to be competition. This bill provides both.

It's not perfect, but it's a start. And it's going to happen.

My husband and I don't agree on much politically, but we agree this should not be passed.

I believe 100 percent that reform is needed now. Is this legislation perfect? Probably not. Is it a much needed start? Definitely!

Well said bobb1951

" Give me a home where the buffalo roam.......
where seldom is heard , a discouraging word....."

There is much disinformation as Mr. Peck says.

The first being healthcare by itself. Everyone in our country by law has access to and cannot be turned away from healthcare. The reform package is who is paying and where the money comes from.

Second, having everyone covered will lower costs. This simply cannot be true, everyone already has access to care and this is part of the nation’s total healthcare dollars spent; government plus private dollars. Putting insurance on more people will not reduce overall dollars spent because they would be spent anyway.

Third, the notion we need to be compared with other nations in reference to dollars spent. Do you really want to go down this route? We spend more than any other country on education and we are not first in this either. It is a baseless argument.

Fourth, requiring everyone have/purchase/receive insurance will lower medical costs and premiums. How did this work out for the states that have mandatory health insurance? Massachusetts now has the highest costs in the nation and they have more than 97% of their people with insurance.

I reject this Bill, I also say that all government officials should pay the same as we do for health care.

I want reform but not this monstrosity

Almost everyone in Washington wants the power, but nobody wants the responsibility. Too few, in either party, pay more than lip service to to accountability. Unfortunately, the last couple of generations of citizens have increasingly failed to hold their political representatives, at any level of government, accountable. Fiscal irresponsibility has become a way of life. The ruling class has cleverly pitted the plebes into "Us versus Them" parties and continually distracts them with Red herring issues.

With an important issues, such as health care, both parties outright lie about the costs and benefits, play games with statistics and forecasts, and promote wildly overstated extreme-case scenarios as probable futures.

The path of "Bread and Circuses" leads to disaster and the United States is on it just as sure as ancient Rome was. And like the original Roman Senate, the United States Senate is as firmly convinced that the consequences of their actions and inactions will stay in a distant and hazy future. After the extreme financial wastes of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the criminally mismanaged financial bailouts of banks and automotive companies, I believe the proposed spending for health care reform may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to foresee a point in America's future when there will be no Social Security as banks will not take a Federal Government check and doctors will not accept promises of payment from Medicare, or the government will merely print more money than it can back and we'll be pushing wheelbarrows of $1000 bills to Woodman's to buy a loaf of bread. In junior high school in the late 60's we would read about people in the Weimar Republic of Germany doing just before their government collapsed and Adolph Hitler came into power. I used to wonder how the people of Germany could let that come to pass. Now I'm afraid I'm learning just how it could happen again.

Of course, we might take the route of Communist Russia, which had a fixed value for their currency of rubles set by the state and was not allowed to be exported, or the route Communist China is now taking, of holding down the value of their yuan to gain trade advantages over other countries.

Imagine a future in which the American dollar has less value than the Mexican peso. Imagine a future without hospitals being open because there aren't enough windmills and solar panels to provide electricity to both the hospital and the City Hall/State Capitol/White House. Imagine a future where the only private employers are Haliiburton and ACORN.

Sic transit gloria mundi.

Life is an entitlement? Americans are willing to lay out millions of dollars to other countries for whatever reasons, yet when it comes to the health of our neighbors or our own families we are not. The question of life vs. death should be an easy answer, but apparently for some it is not.

http://biggovernment.com/capitolconfiden...

I guess you guys are correct. What's 1 or 2 trillion dollars between friends? When has a government program EVER come in under budget? When has a government program EVER made money to pay back to a deficit? Oh wait...the IRS does! Can't forget them! You think 2.3 trillion is high? Just wait. I'd be willing to bet that those folks who are OK with the price tag take more from the government each year than they pay in.

I forgot the link for the New York Times story by Paul Krugman. And its Nobel Prize winner not prise?? Sorry

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/opinio...

Mr. Peck is correct. There is so much confusion and false information out there, that many people are screaming at there congressional reps without a good understanding of what is in these bills.

For reasons I do not understand, Republicans are blocking every single thing that is coming out of this congress. If they kill health care reform, the next hit will be Wall Street reform. They are on record of not wanting any reforms to a system that created this recession. That explains where they are coming from.

The Senate Bill may not be the best thing ever written, but it has NO public option, NOTHING that suggests death panels, and completely leaves existing health care plans run by businesses intact. The insurance companies will still run the new exchange plans which for all practical purposes are the same as if the rest of us were in one big company. If people can afford coverage, they should be required to buy it. They use emergency wards?

Why not help the young kid who needs help and can't get affordable insurance because he had a problem when he was in grade school?

Democrats are only using some different methods to get this passed because they have this 41 Republican Senator problem. The majority are Democrats in this congress.

I also do not see why very reasonable congressmen who oppose abortion do not support this bill because it will save many lives. Existing law blocks abortion from being paid for with public funds.

Need more input? Check out the story by Paul Krugman,a Nobel Prise winning economist, in todays NY Times.

Finally, as to the costs, the best estimate s what the CBO just stated, not a fake $2.3 T coming from our US Rep Ryan.

We need this passed, and this weekend.

Our Constitution says nothing about economics. you right wingers might want to reread that great document before you shoot off your mouths.

Eman, I could not have written it any better. I would only summarize a quote I heard the other day (unsure of the source)speaking to the effect that in this country we have a producing class and an entitlement class. Sooner or later the producers will just stop producing and their will be no more dollars for the entitlement class to lift from people's pockets to pay for other's wishes or wants.

Eman has got it right. We all wish everyone had health care but not at the cost of our Constitutional Rights. If you wish to surrender your rights you are free to do so, but to force that onto all Americans in the name of Health Care or any other reason is absurd. I served 10 years in defense of this Constitution and Ill be damned if I will let anybody take it away from me.This Bill will TAKE AWAY YOUR ENDOWED RIGHTS.

Eman...You stand for everything America is not!

We can thank the cost of providing health care to half a million General Motors retirees to the bankruptcy of GM. In addition to eliminating retiree health care let's get rid of Medicare, Medicaid, Badger care and the V.A. Hospitals. Imagine how much money we would save. "Let them eat cake!"

I do not support the current bill. I support reform, just not this and not at this time. What about jobs and the economy?

Not in favor of it.

off subject for a bit..........

T.E.A. Party Saturday March 27th at the Janesville Post office noon till 3P.M.

Don't Be Tardy For The Party

We now return you to your normal blog entries!

When you consider that the US currently spends twice, TWICE, as much as the OECD developed nations do, with substantially lower health quality and life expectancy, something isn't right -- it's almost impossible to imagine making things worse. The individual mandate is necessary because otherwise you will have a race to the bottom in the health exchanges as healthy people opt out of insurance -- until they get sick and need it. Of course, single-payer universal health care would need no mandate, but apparently nobody will actually vote for a program that is so straightforward and simple.

Let's see - increased taxes that start right away but "benefits" that don't, bureaucratic death panels that put a value on health treatments vs. quality of life, bribery and other sort of payoffs for legislators in order to get a positive vote, additional pork-barrel spending sneaked into the final bill also intended to garner a positive vote from some weak-kneed politician, lack of any attempt or discussion of tort reform, budget and accounting practices that in any other realm would rival ENRON, TYCO, or WORLDCOM.
And the last time I looked the government constitutionally could NOT force anyone to buy anything of commercial value - yet this health care bill does. If you don't you could be fined and eventually go to jail if you don't comply. So no I am not in favor.

I'm in favor of Obama's original speech for national health care. A plan that would provide everyone, rich or poor, basic health care. No insurance company could turn you down for previous medical conditions, or cancel you because you got sick.
Other countries in the world seem to have accomplished this with out their countries going bankrupt and with out civil war over the system, why can't this country?
Interestingly, as I type this there is an ad from Mark Neumann below this box titled "No ObamaCare in Wisconsin" Guess who is NOT getting my vote?

It will certainly be better than nothing, but I will continue to favor the single payer option. Greg...If making sure that Americans can provide basic health care for their kids is "massive entitlement" then like other civilized nations, we should support it!

Our current system of healthcare is economically diseased and in need of urgent care. The pending legislation will conceal the symptoms while spreading the disease even further. It is very bad medicine.