jvldss football and soccer have a nice facility to play at the kids that play hockey and figure skate skate at a rink that is falling apart and needs work done to it. It is only fair that kids that do these sports have just as nice facility to do them at as kids who play football and soccer. I'm sorry that figure skating is a year round sport, as is alot of the hockey leagues.

Hey city council:
My kids play soccer and football. Will you build an indoor facility so they can play year round? I'm sure those clubs would gladly take over the building if you build it for them.

Hank have you been in the rink lately. There are plenty of sponsors. Also you say $11 million, $9 million, see you realy just dont know do you. What ever can be saved from the old will be used in the new rink. Some of the cost's will be saved from volunteers.

Hank,

Since you are so "fact" based, show me the multiple studies that you have referenced to come to the conclusion that: "Also notice no one sponsors hockey in Janesville. Why? Because the head count is so low it does not justify business support." I have seen small town marketing sponsor all sorts of small stuff so I am questioning your statement. In addition, please provide a detailed analysis as to why advertising dollars to local hockey will not see any significant return. Please make sure to include references from several different types of sources including academic studies. Don’t just Google stuff and try and apply it to your argument. That is sloppy and I want to see some real research. You are probably going to have to take a trip to Hedberg or the library at UW-Madison for this. Until I see good research from you I will treat your comments as what most of them are…fallacies.

www.jvlicearena.com Try this link if your looking for the truth about this facility. It may not contain all the "detailed" info some are looking for, but it is better than all the speculation running around these blogs.

Can't somebody give us the number of users and not just uses? To count by uses would be like counting one swimmer as four because he/she does all four competitive strokes.

Hank-Post your 267 names!! Mens hockey league had (B league) had 6 teams in 09 at 11 or 12 skaters a team plus goalies. Roughly 70 players and then not to mention the A league on sunday nights that had another 50 plus men. You need to get your facts RIGHT!!!!!!

I don't know why I am posting this, it is like picking a scab. Hank, you are wrong. I posted the links to other ice rink projects in Farmington and Dubuque in another article as supporting evidence that you are wrong about the 11 million. You undermine "opposition" to taxpayer spending on the rink with every post, unless that is your actual goal. Likewise, blindly believing what the city or the press say about the cost is also shortsighted. Looking at what others paid for a similar rink is relevant.

Maybe I am wrong, but I thought the Janesville high school team uses the current ice arena for free. (Does the girls team get the same benefit?) Would this continue if the hockey association has full control?

From that article:"Davis said it's difficult to put exact numbers to the facility's use, so she provided estimates. Like the senior center, she said, a core group of people uses the ice arena. She estimated that number to be about 3,000 at each facility".

That's about 8 people a day out of 65,000? Still an ugly number. So even at $8.00 a pop they would bring in 24k a year.

Regarding ice arena usage, here's an earlier Gazette story:

http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2009/mar...

creatureinthefreezer- Good point. So, if they show a profit does the money chipped in by the city get repaid? And do the taxpayers get money back as well. Just kidding I know the taxpayers won't see a dime.

Currently the average cost for public skating is $6 for adult and $5 for youth. Lets say with a new rink the cost will increase to an average of $8 Now lets assume that since a new rink will attract large numbers of people according to the supporters lets play what if. If the two sheets maintain 2500 paying customers per week times 52 weeks per year that will equal $1,040,000 less $150,000 for operating costs = $890,000 profit. The question of if they can maintain this kind of volume consistently needs to be answered with facts not fiction. If they can document this kind of volume and true revenue potential then the city should consider the project but not as a gift as a low interest loan since if this fails the city will have to step in again as they did in the past. I seriously doubt they can maintain this level of revenue weekly anyway and if this was investigated properly the real answer would be known.

goodforjanesberg - Yes we did pay for them, and at the time we had a good tax base, most everyone was working, and nobody really was against things, because there was money to get the basics done.
Now- just as most of us are counting pennies, we are looking at the city to do the same.
Just exactly what would be the impact to this city, if they did nothing about the rink until next year, and kept the money for other more needed projects?
I'm holding off on a newer car for another year, got the old snow blower fixed (again) instead of bought a new one, and I'm staying away from ice cream and steak to save money.
But I see my city government spending, spending, and looking at funding research to spend, while at the other hand, trying to figure out how to get more money out of the people who don't - us.

The difference is the Brewers brought over 3 million fans to the ball park the last 2 seasons, who spent money on food, drinks, gas from area gas stations coming and going, and other ways. Big difference from our little Ice Arena

My question on Hockey Club membership remains.
My reasoning ( NO offense meant to them) is that we had a volunteer organization who ran the fireworks display here in town for years. Eventually they ( for reasons that we don't need to get into here) had to give up on this.
Does the Hockey Club have the "manpower" to be running this rink, and what happens "if" they get in "over their heads"?
(I don't know these people, and if this comes to pass, I will wish them a long run and success, and in better times, I might not be against the whole thing.)

REALLY.....I'm sure that every project has "special interests"...Do you think that everyone in Milwaukee is a Brewer fan???? We have a lot of nice things to enjoy in Janesville and they could all be called "special interest" projects. Not everyone uses the bike trail or the library or JPAC or the Tallman House or the bus system or the parking ramp....but we have them and we all paid for them without getting a rash over it.

It's very obvious this project has special interest written all over it. I would suggest everyone call the office of Paul Ryan asking what options are available to force this to a vote by the people of Janesville and take control away from the counsel. The office numbers are P (608) 752-4050 & F (608) 752-4711. The Senate representative is Judy Robson P (608) 266-2253 toll free (800) 334-1468. Put the pressure on the next level up and see what happens.

I think that since the City of Janesville owns the ice arena someone interested in the CORRECT number of PAYING users could get accurate information from the "City". I'm not sure one a statistical basis however, that those repeat users would be sorted out. Since everyone pays to use the ice, the user fees for the year would be divided by individual use fee thus giving the # of uses, not neccesarily the # of users, which is a question that perhaps would never be accurately answered, (if you follow my calculations). That number would however give you an idea how much use the ice gets in all seasons. The ice doesn't sit empty much in the summer (if it's working). I'm sure if we had two sheets of ice that the revenue would increase as outside groups would have more access.

At a previous Council meeting a few months ago a council member gave the number 57,000 as how many visits there were to the arena last year. This was during the budget process if I recall correctly, as a way to justify the spending. Obviously someone who goes 3 times a week for practice and such could feasibly be counted as 150 visits, dramatically dropping the unique visitors, but that gives a somewhat vague answer if that makes sense.

Great Idea Jvlhomeowner- I would think since Frank Schultz wrote the article he should be able to gather some numbers for us.

topsgt132: Construction figures may be different, but I'll bet the equipment costs will be close. Ice making stuff is probably priced the same all over the country, just add transportation costs. Yea, we might get a sweetheart deal from some one local to build the thing. But I think the point is..now is not the time for this city to be "giving away" millions of our $$ in a time when we don't know what is going to happen tomorrow with the tax base.

Hey Gazette!
Inquiring minds what to know! Research this for us: How many people actually used the ice rink in 2007 - 08 -09 ( insert any year you can get figures on)
I'd really like to know what percent of the city's population is benefiting from this gift. And at this point, I don't really care how many of the users pay taxes in town, just the figures.

If Hank's numbers are so far off, can someone please get the real numbers? And can the "real numbers" not reflect people who use the rink multiple times a week.

jvlhomeowner...I don't have any numbers for you, but I did read the link. I also know that the number that Hank quoted was way off. I just wanted you to clarify the number that you wanted. Total # of users or just JYH Club users. I am not affiliated with any group, but I do know that there are a multitude of groups that rent the rink out...Girls Scouts, Men's Hockey group, birthday parties, learn to skate, in house hockey programs, summer camps,as well as the groups I mentioned in my earlier post etc....as you can see it would be VERY difficult to believe that ONLY 267 people used the rink in 2009,no matter "where they paid their property taxes". They all paid the City to rent the ice.

Hank..Looking over your link, I would first ask why you are comparing a suburb of the Twin Cities with a pop. of 20,000 to Janesville with a pop of roughly 60k. I would then ask what the cost of living there is compared to here. What costs $5 mil here may well cost $9 mil near the Twin Cities. You aren't quite comparing apples to oranges here but you are comparing two different types of apples. I would have to believe that the city counsel's figures are based on quotes relevant to this area and not another state.

Consider that 3 br/2 bath ranch style houses start at $200,000 in Farmington compared to upper $80's in Janesville and I have to believe that the cost of living there is a bit higher.

I know I'll never change your mind, but until you post relevant facts you certainly won't convince me to support your position.

ne1but24n18; Ok, so what ARE the real numbers?
How many people actually "USE" ( not visit and watch) the ice sheet in a year??

My question about the Hockey Club remains, Reason: do they have the membership to support the operation of the rink on a daily basis???
(or whenever it is to be open)

Isn't Janesville's population around 65,000. And 267 people use the arena? I wouldn't think the math warrants the project even if it was double that figure. I think maybe mczam's proposal is worth consideration.

Thanks Hank, I was trying to research that as I was typing my last.
No- we don't need to identify those who use the rink, good for them that they do.

I'ts just that the "pro" rink people make it sound like there is a line outside the rink waiting to be allowed to skate ( or waiting for the ice to firm up) 267 people out of a city of about 65,000, out of a county of about 155,000?
That little town in Minn. needs those repairs more than we do...

Hank - only 267 people used the hockey rink in 2009? You are out of your mind and your numbers are sooooooooooo far off. You could give the names and addresses for all users? Wrong! They don't sign in at open skate, Girl Scout Skating, open skaters,Bluebird, Fury, and Jets' games, etc. etc. You have NO IDEA what you are talking about! The rink is not just about the youth hockey club, it is for them, figure skaters, men's hockey, learn to skate, high school boys and girls hockey, the Jets, etc.

goodforjanesberg: the file Hank links to is for a community of about 20,000 with the "Hockey club" supporting about 320 families, and 430 active participants. They also mention the renting of hours to school and other organizations.

So right now - today what are the membership numbers for the average users of the Hockey club, who would manage it, under the latest plan?

I'm just trying to get a grip on this...the numbers Hank came up with are listed in that e-link, and they are proposed to a community of 20,000, one of the options mentions it as a seasonal rink, Nov - Feb, with provisions to "turf" it the remainder of the year to allow other opportunities for income.

"Levitt said it’s a good time to reassess the situation because of the many changes that have come up since the idea of a new ice arena was first proposed last spring."

REFERENDUM! Put it to a vote! Quit tossing money, that this city needs for all the items listed below, away on studies.

To everybody who has posted in favor of this giveaway, I need to say this. 5 years ago, this probably would have been an OK thing. We had a good tax base and most everybody had jobs.
NOW - is not the time. If the tax base grows, then revisit the project, when we can easily pay for it. There are too many other needs to be taken care of first, then we can look at the wants, and the "it would be nice to have's".
What happens if the local economy tanks further ( or just doesn't get better)? Are you going to wave at the ice center on your move out of town?
What are you all going to say if costs go up( which they always do) but the money well goes dry, and you have an incomplete building that no one can use, you can't sell, and can't finish?
Sorry, not now. Put it to a vote!

Hank... it's not a big secret that we all pay taxes, federal, state, city, county, income, sales, etc..... etc.....so no big deal who pays where...we are all in tax happy hell and it won't get any better real soon!

jvlhomeowner..Not sure about your question..in Janesville it's the Janesville Youth Hockey Club and the ice arena is used by the Janesville Jets, The Fury, The Bluebirds, figure skaters, and open skaters as well as the JYH Club...so what numbers would you want, JYH Club or ALL that use the arena?? I wouldn't have any idea of any of the numbers, but I think you would have to clarify the question for an accurate answer from someone who would have the CORRECT stats. JMO

Open Question for those of us who have come in late (and really read Hank's link)

Post here:
What number of skaters does the Hockey Assn. support? ("hundreds" is not an acceptable answer.)

SarahB1 Yes on one point we agree, however I love the thought of a nice ice arena for our area youth...I don't have young children, but I do know many that don't play hockey, but do open skating and go to Jets games. It is GOOD, CLEAN, HEALTHY fun and (since you are into psychiatry) hopefully keeps these kids off the streets and out of trouble,(and rehab). The current arena is in shambles....been in those bathrooms???????

Good: Now you see my point; taxpayers should not have to foot the bill on many, many items.

SarahB1 Thank you for the diagnosis, although I'm not sure of your qualifications. If we all look around us and use our heads, (no pun intended), most, if not all things are tax funded!!!!!! For instance that lovely roadwork done around the now empty GM plant, taxpayer money......LOTS of it....The week late trashman who stood and talked on his cell phone for over 5 mins on our taxpayer dollars....LOOK AROUND ....most things are taxed and we all pay taxes in some form...."cash for clunkers"..I don't want to help anyone else buy a car, but I didn't have a say in the matter..same goes for "special financing" for first time home buyers...I didn't have a say in the matter....MOST things in this country are taxpayer funded.....attorneys for terrorists...etc.

emac: Is A-OK; great minds think alike.

Does the hockey association's cost estimate include parking? I am asking because when this issue last came up at the Council meeting, several members eyes opened wide when the figure of $750,000-$850,000 was mentioned.

Sorry SarahB1! I was typing mine while they were posting yours. What she said.

Create a small-business incubator in Janesville? "We don't have the money." (However, the city was to apply for a federal grant last fall of which we have heard zip about since.)

tom1cass2- I don't recall anyone saying " no one uses the rink". I thought people were saying there is very little open skating, so only a select few get to use the rink.

I missed you Hank...you are scary and have no clue about the ice arena. However, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how uniformed and scary it is.

Return public pool hours to pre-2009 schedule? "We don't have the money."

woody: You forgot a couple ...

Pay for July Fourth fireworks? "We don't have the money."

goodforjanesberg: You are a master at passive-aggressive comments.

tom1cass2: The problem is that the same small percentage of people do ALL of those activities. We are not against a new rink; we are just against having $2.5 million (or more) come out of the taxpayers' pockets. It's also apparent that Hank has struck a nerve with some of the more vocal supporters of a taxpayer-funded rink.

tjncj........your comment ......priceless LMAO
Hank is probably a very nice person....all things are possible.

Not to split hairs, but Beloit installed an entirely new system with a new slab for less than $400,000.
I still think that Rock County needs a new ice arena. A double sheet would be the best option. The tax burden should be distributed to the entire county. The fundraising could then be split by the Beloit and Janesville youth clubs. It is unfortunate that the county did not aquire the farm at the Avalon Rd. interchange. This would have been an ideal place for a new arena. We could have moved the fairgrounds, and the Snapper Stadium there as well.
Old rivalries need to be put aside. We need to start marketing ourselves(Rock County/Stateline) as one area. We have the necessary infrastructure to aquire large business. We just need to work together to obtain it.
The proposed ice rink would be a great start!

People say the rink is not used, have you ever been down there to see how many kids take polar express, play youth hockey, figure skate, the high school hockey teams, who many people go watch the Jets play. There are alot of people who use this rink, so if you you think nobody uses this rink you are sadly mistaken.

Hank is right the problem here is that people who want this and don't want to see the facts get on here and ridicule people who don't agree with them. There the same people who in High School bullied to get there way and are doing it again. This is a no brainer we do not need this

Yeahhhhhhh, Hank!!!

Let's hear it for Hank...Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Plant new trees on city property when big one fall down? "we don't have the money"

Keep up our parks like Riverside Park? "we don't have the money"

Christmas ornaments on light posts? "we don't have the money"

The hockey club taking over really scares me. My daughter figure skates and the way some of the youth hockey feels about the figure skating club makes me afraid that we will not have much ice time or our ice time will be at all odd hours of the day. If they take it over I just hope they treat ALL user groups fair.

Plow snow better? "we don't have the money"

Mow city property weeds? "we don't have the money"

Fix the Jackson St bridge? "we don't have the money"

Fix some pot holes? "we don't have the money"

I think I saw Hank and Eric Levitt in the stands during the hockey game. They were sharing a Klondike bar.

Maybe people are upset about this because all we ever hear when it comes time to fix what we already have is "we don't have the money".

emac-thats funny right there. Good to see some people have a sense of humor.

Personally, I write (or "whine",if that is what you would rather call it) in the blogs because my wife is tired of listening to me b*tch about the things I have no control over.

Boy some of you people are obsessed with Hank. Pretty pathetic. Maybe because you all know he is, in some ways, correct? This whole thing is totally ridiculous. Now they want to just hand over 2.5 million dollars to the hockey club? What a fricking joke! Then next time we get a big snowfall there will be articles telling us how the snow removal budget is short of cash so they are unable to clear the streets properly. Or an article in spring of how the city will have to choose which roads to fix because theres not enough money in the budget. But hey, lets throw away 2.5 million on somehting that 1% of the population will EVER use! What a wonderful, responsible idea!

Tear down the old rink to make room for a new fire station, and tell the hockey club they're welcome to apply for TIF.

Hank was spotted at the ice rink "fixing" the refrigeration system. J/K

I think Hank is watching Olympic hockey right now. Or he may have taken my advice on searching for Bigfoot after the incredible evidence he found on the internet.

MESPI: I totally agree that the same people of Janesville is not happy unless they can complain about anything the city would like to do to better the community we all live in. They would be happy to see it turn into a 3rd world before they would spend a dime to see any improvements. Example the skate park, Children museum, ice rink anything that would benefit kids of our city. They are always negative to any of these. Yet there are thousands who never say anything but would love to have these programs for there kids.

Who takes on the cost to keep the builing going when the Hockey club is unable to pay the bills after five years? It seems the city will be in the same situation as it is now? (My comment does not in anyway endorse Hank. Just a question)

Hank is a HUGE curling fan and he is watching USA vs. Germany as we speak.

"relatively low-cost" government study...now that's an oxymoron!

I am amazed, everyone complains when they want to fix up the old ice rink, you complain when they want to invest in co-ownership of a new one, you complain when they want to invest in a new one and stay out of being responsible of maintaining it, and you complain when the existing one is broken, wow this community wines a lot. Everyone have a nice day.

What say you Hank?

Oh Haaaaaank.....where are you????

Something tells me the study is already being done (hence, quick results projected by Levitt). Let the hockey club pay for the study (retroactively) if this arena proposal becomes reality.

We all know the Winter Oympics are happening now and Hank is a BIG FAN of Ice sports soooooooo He's probably watching hockey, or figure skating, or speed skating....LOL

I'm sorry, but this is downright stupid.

City Manager Eric Levitt said Tuesday that the idea is worthy of consideration. Levitt said he will recommend at Monday’s city council meeting that the city pay for a relatively low-cost study by a neutral, outside party of the current ice arena and of plans for a new one.

Let the city pay for the study? How about NO!

Where does it stop? What non-profits will be denied in the future for wanting an even smaller dollar amount "gift"? Either they get the money and the city retains ownership, or they manage and fund it themselves. I wish I could have someone else set up a business venture for me, and all I have to do is accept the keys at a Grand Opening ceremony. Get with reality here Janesville City Council, this is now Spending, not replacing existing assets. If this is the direction it is going, do a referendum. Other cities have done them for much lesser dollar amounts than $2 Million, why should this situation be any different.

(Arms folded, looking at watch, tapping foot, waiting for Hank)

I think someone's jealous.

Or build me a home and all I need to do is take over the bills.

I would like the idea of the city giving me $2,000,000 dollars to do something I like!

I thought Hank was Eric Levitt.

C'mon, Hank. This story has been up for 11 minutes now, and you haven't posted Eric Levitt's life story yet, replete with all the terrible wrongs he has done.