Pat "To say all those home owners in foreclosure lied, would be a lie on your part."

As I stated you failed to read, or at least comprehend my post. I didn`t say "all" - I said millions (a fact). I did not mention "foreclosures". Foreclosures are the aftermath of the conditions I cited.

Your initial response , so you said, related your personal borrowing experience, a parochial view, lacking in sophistication, as regards the economy.

It probably will surprise you, based upon your display of ignorance of facts, that in excess of a trillion dollars, more likely reaching two trillion remains in the toxic asset realm. Much of the value of those toxic assets relate directly or indirectly to poor loans, millions of them, to home buyers who disregarded ethical and personal responsibilities (felonius and moral failures). Lenders and buyers contributed, in a majority, to the economic failures in this country. I reiterate, contrary to your parochial and obviously unsophisticated experiences, these borrowers falsified loan documents and disregarded all considerations except to purchase a home well beyond their means, then borrowed against inflated equity. This action, in a large part, precipitated the near failure of the banking system. GM, in all probability, may well have fell upon difficult times, regardless, but I conjecture it would have been much less of a failure and certainly not the catastrophic problem GM now faces.

In future when quoting me, quote correctly.

G.M.s no have been sinking for the last 10 years an they were painfully slow to do anything about it. Like many they just kept hoping it would get better. The blame belongs with G.M. . For all the money paid to the mgmt who basically sank this ship,, or I guess car.

clown seems fitting to some one who can only see one factor in a situation. To say all those home owners in foreclosure lied, would be a lie on your part. There were cracks in G.M.'s bumper long before the housing crisis and one did not create the other. Open your eyes all the way. I am still trying to find your wit, but is buried I would imagine underneath the ignorance. One did not create the other.

Pat said >To clown who wants to blame the homeowners who were foreclosed on<

Well Pat, I am that clown, if you wish, from your ignorance, to so term me.

I will not debate with you the contents of my post (which obviously you did not carefully read), except to say, your knowledge of the causes of the recent economic problems in this country, are scanty, if not non-existent.

On this subject, it is apparent, in a battle of wits, you are unarmed.

Lets not all forget as well all the money that G.M. owed the state when they bailed that will be lost in bankruptcy. Then they want more?

To clown who wants to blame the homeowners who were foreclosed on, get a clue. G.M . was in trouble long before the housing went bust. AND how do you lie about income when you apply for a mortgage? When we bought and then refinanced we had to show tax returns, and pay stubs for 3 months get a freakin clue.

Dmat, good point. The workers are not the ones who should be hanging their heads in shame. It was the employees that were yanked around a bit by the 'management' and politicians, as most of us are.

Those that built the vehicles should be holding their heads UP as they are the ones who did most of the grunt work... Shame of the 'big wigs' who are so blinded they can't see that!

iamqueenb: I strongly believe what you say is true.... it would have cost more money to update the Jville plant and do what they had to do to switch it from a truck/SUV plant to a small car plant. GM got themselves into this mess all on their own.... so, why the heck are we haveing to bail them out? Chrysler (in the 80s), Ford, and all these other companies worked at getting themselves out of a MORE HUGE mess before it got to be a HUGE mess.

I have no sympathy for GM. Sure it'll be tough on the local economy, but it was GM's lack of wise business moves.

Why aren`t you guys angry with millions of fellow citizens who lied about their income , indebtedness, etc and took out home loans they couldn`t pay and couldn`t understand escalating interest rates and precipitated this whole mess of economic failure in the USA? That loss of citizen borrowing power and income knocked out GM. Many automobiles were bought with home equity which wasn`t worth a darn. Greed and millions of felonius borrowers must carry a lot of blame.

Evidently Diamond Jim Doyle forgot to make a few GM Executive retirement fund donations in exchange for a totally unrelated GM management decision to choose the Janesville plant.

FtWayne - I agree with you on 1 point and that is Washington is pulling the strings but I disagree and still say politics has EVERYTHING to do with this. here's why. On a national scope who does Joe public think of when they hear GM - that's right, DETROIT - not Janesville WI. So, IF they can pull this off & "save or create" 1200 jobs in Michigan the percieved truth to the general public - in whatever state - is going to be "Washington saved Detroit" and all OUR bailout money worked.

I'm a retired UAW worker and I just want to say to all my union brothers and sister's at Janesville and Springhill the decision was nothing more than whipsawing at it's best.I know you all make quality products so keep your heads up something will come to your plants.

In Solidarity
Dmat 2006

The politics played in this makes absolutely no sense. General Motors does NOT run GM any longer. Just because there are a few left at the TOP who were there under the GM nameplate means nothing about the corporate decisions being made today. Washington has pulled EVERY string since Obama dumped Wagoner in March. I’m sure Wagoner regrets asking Congress for any help last fall since GM ended up in bankruptcy anyways; and who couldn’t see that coming? Spring Hill TN made complete business sense. The decision to continue running a Michigan plant makes ZERO sense financially AND politically. Observe in recent elections: When the economy gets bad and Americans lose jobs; Democrats get elected to office. When things continue to get bad and eventually even worse; Democrats get elected to office. Case in point; the 2006 AND 2008 election cycle. Not to mention Michigan’s economy has been in turmoil for decades; and Michigan still continues to vote Democrat not only for Governor, but in the National elections as well. Tennessee being a RED state would have made more sense especially since the Governor is a Democrat. Obama as well as the supporting legislatures already have Michigan’s and Wisconsin’s full support no matter how the GM Janesville debacle turned out. Obama had a real shot at Tennessee in 2012 if he made the correct BUSINESS choice of locating small car production at the Spring Hill assembly plant. This still might not be over for Spring Hill TN, but unfortunately it was over for Janesville on December 23, 2008.

"The governor says he hopes Wisconsin was not used to simply leverage more resources from Michigan". What, are you kidding me! That is the most ridiculous statement I've heard from that guy since the last thing he said. I really wish I could swear and not be blocked on this blog!

Oh please lets hold G.M. responsible for this entire mess.. It was going to whom ever was willing to write the biggest check. They made that clear. We have police officer's taking pay cuts so they don't have to lay off officer's. This state is strapped for cash, like everyone else. I have to wonder if the plant in Michigan is not newer as well and would require less updating. Janesville is one of the oldest G.M. plants around or was. Regardless of how much money they put into it.
I don't like being bribed, and that is exactly what G.M. was doing.. Who ever writes the biggest check gets it..That is why Tennessee pretty much took them selves out of the running weeks ago, they have no money either.

Well, you are partly correct here. GM realizes that the economy is in the dumper and that some states are hit harder than others with job losses, particularly the midwest, and also knows that the legislatures in these states wants to be able to show their voting public that they brought jobs to the state. However, as far as how the state got into this financial mess, much of that falls directly into the lap of Jim Doyle. Don't buy into this Obama-esque habit of pointing the finger elsewhere. Jim Doyle has presided over this state's economy for over 6 years and has also overseen a completely hostile climate for businesses. Well, what happens when you treat businesses like lepers, they pick up and move elsewhere, and, oh by the way, when they do pick up and leave, guess what you don't get...tax revenue from the business and its employees.

Score - Michigan 18 Wisconsin 11
Thats the number of electoral votes per state!!! This was an easy decision people - its pure politics - NOT who offers what or how much. Michigan last voted Republican in 1988 & Wisconsin in 1984 - guess Mr. O thought he needed those 18 votes come 2012 - he might have guessed right!!!!!! God help us all

Another suggestion to Gov. Doyle: If your incentive package is so "great", why not repackage it and use it to draw another company to Janesville? GM was not the only employer in town. We could use some other industry and jobs here. If not Janesville, then use this package for another city that is hurting for jobs.

Suggestion to Gov. Doyle and Tim Cullen: Tell us what was in your "strong" incentive package. Otherwise, quit whining!

IAMQUEENB~YOU ARE RIGHT BUT WE NEVER STOOD A CHANCE WHEN IT CAME DOWN TO IT, MICH. HAS A STAMPING PLANT RIGHT NEXT TO IT AND THAT IS A BIG SAVINGS TO GM, BESIDES MICH. DIDN'T SEND DOYLE!!!!! OUR SAVIORS PROBABLY DID US IN IN THE LONG RUN!!!!!

What difference does it make now if Wisconsin was used or not? It is what it is. We knew all along that you cannot trust the sleazeballs at GM, yet we are still lining up to kiss their, well, let's say feet. You knew that they were going to screw us over eventually even if they gave us the new car, the only question was when. Now we know. For now...