Still no one wants to answer this question but so many are all to willing to make a decision that teeters on the edge of murder.

When does life begin? What pompous person out there can define at what point after the sperm meets the egg that killing it is justifiable. Do we rely on circumstances? How you feel about it? If a person kills a pregnant woman does the murderer get charged with two homicides? Would it depend on if the mother wanted the child or not? Would it depend on how far along she was?

lilbobby-What is the basis for anyone's beliefs? What they feel? What they've read? The law? What their parents taught them? What foundation do you have? And how do you justify it?

aletheia...do you like to argue for argument's sake? Scripture is against this as well. I don't even know what point you are trying to make. Please don't take something simple and turn it into something so complex. I won't take the time to counter anything you are saying as my comments were pretty simple and to the point. Nor was I arguing with you to start, simply adding to what you were saying.

aletheia, I understand what you are saying but one thing that is worth noting is this...the Word also states that there will be many who do many things in His name but He will know them not. I think in our society it has become convenient to us to forget the Holiness of God and our reverence for Him is lost in trying not to offend those around us. We forget that following God's commands are very important and lose sight of that when we are "not passing judgement" on those around us. You are right in the fact that we should not pass judgement on whether a person will or will not be admitted into heaven, but on the other hand we must not condone the sin. Sin is sin and it must be called as such. Yes, I sin as you and every other created being do also. But it is still sin and it is still wrong. You have made a lot of good points and I am, for those that try to justify abortion in their own eyes even though they personally wouldn't do such a thing, trying to convey that while yes, God does forgive us, He is just and will punish unrepentant sin.

I don't say it's the unpardonable sin, no one knows what that is. but I would state that if you have an abortion God can forgive you and will if you are truly repentant. But if you go into it thinking I will do this and then ask forgivenes, knowing in your heart it is a sin, then I would question weather you are truly repentant or just plain selfish. Nothing is unredeemable but we should not sin purposly as Paul states in Romans. But to allude ourselves into thinking that because it's leagal that it is ok or that because it's legal it's not a life you are murdering,that is a terrible misjudgment. We all know that if you were to follow through with the pregnancy a life would most likely be the result in the end, barring miscarriage. So to say that you are not taking a life would be a lie that planned parenthood and others try to push on us daily. yet 50,000 lives are destroyed each year. A life that could find the cure for cancer or "global warming" or even aids. We may have already killed that person. It is A Life! not a mass of tissue.

We do not live in a socialist county, All you reciting biblical sayings need to keep YOUR religion out of this discussion. Millions do not read or believe in YOUR bible. So who are you to push it on those who believe different? Move to Romania, work in the orphanages that are filled with thousands of unwanted babies. They live in cribs with no human contact, they rock themselves for comfort, pull out their hair, have no idea what love is. They grow up with mental problems some become violent. Their lives have no hope, love, education, oh but atleast they are 'alive' to live years and years in suffering, oh yes but they are alive. Walk a year in their lives and tell how great it is that they were born.

momof5...I would really like to know what your biblical reference is for drinking and dancing being a sin. Since Jesus turned the water into wine at a wedding and David danced before the Lord...I am anxious to see these verses of yours. Also, the old testament is not only comprised of the laws of God but also the laws of man as it is commonly talked about in scripture as to how the Jews added their own laws to those of God. Stoning your child was never a law of God. As Jesus demonstrated in the new testament when He told the woman who was caught in an adulterous situation that she should go and sin no more and also told those wanting to stone her (according to old testament law) because of her sin that those without sin should cast the first stone. I agree with billnewbie on this one, how does stoning a child make abortion ok?

I don't care if it what you call a faithless act or not,it is murder weather you acknowledge God or not! It is murder of a human being!!! God giveth and God taketh away Blessed be the name of the Lord!!

Murder is murder weather you make a profit or not! Abortion is wrong and should be illegal. Those of you who say it's ok because it is legal know that it is still a child they are destroying. Life is life in or outside the womb, ( where they are supposedly safe??!!). God please forgive us!!

quote -- "The bible interprets itself and is not for private interpretation" --
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Wow, just, wow
The bible is a tool for christians to live by, not a reference book, individual interpretation of the lords word is what christianity is all about. people finding for themselves what jesus wanted us to do and how to live. The bible is there for guidance, not reference. go have a sit down with your minister.

Do you want me to repeat it? Maybe you could you be more specific about what you would like explained.

bill: what?

Momof5,I must confess that I missed that passage. But I also would point out that my arguments against abortion have never included biblical passages as I realize that those who choose and support abortions have little interest in them. In our other discussion on this topic, I posed this rhetorical question, "Where does one acquire the prescience to determine that the welfare of any given unborn child is better served with death than life?" and you became quite irritated when I continued with this, "One doesn’t need a bible to know that to claim the right to make such a determination is the exclusive domain of God" as you had demanded a God free discussion. All my abortion arguments are philosophical, based on my perceptions of morality. I would not bother to quote scripture to one who detests it. Neither will I be driven from a discussion by those who find my arguments offensive even if they are laced with references to God or even biblically based. Besides, referring to the stoning of disobedient children doesn't serve the pro-abortion agenda. If you find the stoning of a disobedient child to be offensive, how can you not find the dismemberment or poisoning of the innocent unborn offensive as well? In other words, if you see a red light in reference to stoning disobedient children, why don't you see a red light with abortions?

Thanks for providing the passage!

Billnewbie:you are missing my point. In many of your other points, you rely heavily on biblical passages and quotes as your line of defense. I'm not saying an abortion results from the disobedience of the unbor and is therefore justified. I am saying you can't PERSONALLY mold a passge to fit your argument while disregarding others.

I have this conversation with my devout Catholic m-i-l. "The Bible says so, that's why." Well, you know what else the Bible says? No dancing, no wine, condemnation to death for certain sins and stoning disobedient sons. Oh, and that a woman's father is her authority until she is married: then it is husband. All I can say is bring on the stones: I've earned each one! And, my m-i-l would have a few coming her way to during her 40+ years of marriage.

Its like red lights. You have to stop at all of them, not the ones you feel like stoping at or the ones you are not inconvienenced by.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
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"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death
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Its the bible open to individual interpretation but it is there.

bn1967 - Are you saying that men are THAT gullible? Please . . . responsibility is a two way street. Time to move out of the Stone Age and drop the "cave man" mentality.

Momof5, if you can provide the verse that says to stone children I would like to see it, however, I believe you are mistaken. But even if such a verse were to exist, what disobedience is an unborn child capable of that would justify killing it?

pcmagic1: I apologize. The biblical quote question was aimed at justified_by_faith. Which, justified and billnewbie: do you also realize it says in the bible to stone disobedient children? I can tell you there wouldn't be enough stones in this world! I also sincerely hope you don't drink and don't dance...also against the passages of the bible. Sorry, but you cannot pick and choose which passages to follow literally and abide by while ignoring others!

Again, magic one: I apologize.

oops, half not have.

I can agree with that abort rape and incest by the 4th month at the latest, in all other cases save the baby unless the mothers life depends on it.

So many comments to make here. "Males getting the girl in trouble"???? Don't these women realize how they will get pregnant? So, the guy doesn't want to wear "protection" the woman has WAY more options to prevent pregnancy but that would mean being responsible. So get pregnant, blame the guy and have an abortion? I can't even count how many men I know (of all ages ) that have children (out of marriage) because the woman said she was on birthcontrol. I can't believe over have of them were the small percentage that got pregnant while on the pill, shot, patch, iud, diaprahm (spelling?). Let's be more honest, I am desperate to keep "my man" so I trap him by getting pregnant but guess what? It didn't work! Not only does he NOT want me he doesn't want the baby either. So now I think about my choice and abort???? Does this sound all too familiar? Now, you get pregnant due to rape or incest...why wait until the baby is capable of living with a loving adoptive family to abort. I'm not a supporter of abortion but I would say in those cases abortion (if the woman chooses) should be done by the 4th month. I have researched late term or partial birth abortions and the way they are performed are disgusting. How they can claim putting the baby in a breech position, delivering the head just to insert a needle into its neck to suck it's brains out and then continue to deliver the baby SAVES A MOTHERS LIFE? Why not just deliver the baby and hand it over to the 5+ couples I know who are dying to conceive and raise a child!?!?!??!

Quote from ohwow -- "What a beautiful blessing to come out of a horrible situation." -- Quote
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Referring to victims impregnated by rape.
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Are you sick? How would you feel if it was your daughter or wife that was raped in a parking lot and impregnated? Yes a baby is a beautiful thing shared between 2 people who care about each other in at least SOME capacity, not someone being held against their will and RAPED, why put the woman through that kind of emotional pain why put the child through that pain of finding out his dad raped his mom and likely never got caught and never known again. Im against abortion for the most part but you have to draw a line somewhere.

It is telling that the University is quick to deny the profit motive in these late-term abortions. It's difficult enough to appear altruistic in attempting to fill this gap in morally contestable late-term abortion services without adding the appearance of profit motive to the mix. I'm sure they would rather project the appearance of them being the noble providers of this distasteful but necessary service, rather like civil-minded sanitation workers. It''s a dirty job, but someone has to do it, and preferably for minimum wage so that their motivation won't be questioned.

hospitals taking part in killing our most innocent victims. you cn't make it up. i knew going to the hospital could be dangerous to your health, but overtly killing babies. what an outrage. are they using public funds to "not make their profit." does not making a "profit" make it right anyway? common sense answerws these questions no matter what side of the political debate one is on.

It's been claimed that if we were to stop all abortions, that since we don't have the resources to properly support the children that are born now, these extra million or so children a year would suffer deprivation and it would therefore be better to kill them and thus spare them needless suffering while sparing ourselves as well. But that could be said of many of us right now in these tough economic times. Does that justify someone deciding our fate, someone with an interest in reducing the drain on resources, someone who would directly benefit from our demise? The question of resources for the unwanted isn't one of shortage but of an unwillingness to reallocate, or share those resources and to make due with less. Under any other circumstance, when a person is killed for the purpose of saving the money used for their support, or any other resources, we call that murder because that is what that is. But for the unborn we call it legal abortion.
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As for judging the prospective quality of life of the unborn, even if one could accurately predict a dismal future for an unborn child, is that grounds to end it? Almost all of us have experienced suffering and many have experienced deprivation. In retrospect, would any of us have preferred not to be born? The obvious answer is a resounding no! In spite of life's darker moments, haven't we all experienced the wonders of life as well? How can we deny our children that which we have received and would fight to keep?

"One thing all the pro-lifers don't concider, If there was no abortions, who would care for and love all the millions of unwanted babies?"

It doesn't mean we don't consider it. Its been brought up before in conversations I've had with pro-choice. That isn't a good enough reason to change our view points. We know well enough that abortion will always be around and has been for a long time. And you know what? I would take a few children in a heart beat if I knew that it would save their lives and not be aborted. I am only 1 person, but to save a life would be the greatest reward.

And prettynpink, If it's 'murder' in your eyes, tell me how many funerals have you gone to for miscarried babies? If you believe they are "babies" why don't you lobby for funerals enstead of telling others, who may not belive your religious views, that they don't deserve air. Other religions may not believe your beliefs, so if someone isn't 'Christian' you feel you have the right to PUSH your beliefs onto them? What if it was the other way around? How would you feel if a Muslim, Hindu, Athiest, tryed to push their beliefs on you? Every one must account for their OWN actions when judgement day comes, that doesn't give YOU the right to tell anyone else how or what they should believe while on earth.

One thing all the pro-lifers don't concider, If there was no abortions, who would care for and love all the millions of unwanted babies? There are so many out there right now and you all want to add more? I hope all you pro-lifers have a couple of these unwanted kids in your homes as foster kids. If not - what right do you have to say ANYTHING? What kind of HELL do you thing these babies will live in with mothers and fathers who can't afford to feed them? Take a trip to Rio and look in the eyes of thousands of 'unwanted' homeless starving children, then tell me how abortion should be illeagal. Are YOU going to support them, feed them, clothe them? I don't think so.

ANYONE who believes that abortion is okay isnt worth a ounce of air!! How sick can people be to think MURDER is okay..Your parents gave you the right to life and some of you im sure chose to give your children the right to life...Yes some children our unplanned..take the responsibility for you actions and take care of the voiceless innocent child... If there is other circumstances then choose a different option other than abortion...there is plently of people out in the world who cannot have children and would love to care of a baby... but NO theres some heartless individuals out there that would choose to MURDER an innocent child who doesnt have a voice to choose!!

alethia: that's well put!

pcmagic1: wth are you talking about "one of your lucky unaborted ones..." Because someone doesn't agree with your views you equate that to wasting time on them? Huh. That's pretty small minded of you!

granted, i think people shouldn't wait until they are in the second trimester until having an abortion.

please pro-lifers, know there are many reasons why women have abortions. so do not judge or rant & rave and be self-righteous until you have walked a mile in the shoes of a woman who has made the decision or is pondering it.

alethiea-Those are some great posts and I agree with you, but it wasn't that long ago that having the taxpayers pay for one's "birth-control pills" carried a stigma and now its supposed to be some kind of virtue.........

mom0f5
Didn't recall putting a biblical quote in my comment...
Abortion is the epitome of selfishness...2nd trimester abortions or later are beyond defense in all but the most rare of circumstances.
I wonder what possibilities were in the minds of the tens of millions that have been aborted since humankind took over this 'right'. What inventions could have been created, what great art works could have been given to us. Such a poverty!

Perhaps one of your 5 'lucky' non-aborted ones can convince you someday the error of your ways. I will waste no further time on you.

A hospital is a business. The purpose of a business is to turn a profit. Why do it if your not going to make money? Last I looked they aren't running a charity.

Tax payer funded late term abortions. That's just wrong.

Hkeat: you bring up a very valid point. Late term abortion is an entirely different beast from regular abortions. A doctor CAN deem a patient an unsucessful candidate for ANY procedure. I would guess, and sincerely hope, that a doctor would refuse to perform a lta if they even SUSPECTED it was because of the sex of the unborn.

The anti-abortionists would like "us" to believe that a woman goes in, hops on the table, the stir-ups are brought out and a life is ended and everyone goes about their day. Not the case. Wisconsin has a mandatory minimum 24 hour wait time before the procedure. There is also (required) extensive counseling-which includes a description of the procedure. There are other screening tools used to make sure that the decision is not only informed but also not coerced. So, they might not ask "are you aborting because you wanted a girl" but they'll figure it out during the process.

At the end of the day, this will ALWAYS be a much debated and VERY passionate debate. Its a pretty black and white topic.

At one point, if a man was married he had to have his wife's permission to get a vasectomy. Yet, a married woman could end a pregnancy and her husband would be none the wiser. So not right on so many levels!!

This whole thing makes me want to vomit. I cannot believe that people are so selfish to abort, let alone do it so late in the pregnancy. At 20 weeks, you can find out the sex of the baby. (oh damn, its a boy and I wanted a girl.. lets abort cuz I can) So wrong. And as far as using the line of doing abortions due to rape or incest.. are you trying to tell me these girls don't realize they were raped until 19 weeks.. Oh come on. I knew I was pregnant at 5 weeks so to even say they didn't know before 19 weeks is so bull. Its so disgusting and its murder. And above all, probably 90% of the time, it is just a woman not wanting to take responsibility for not keeping her legs closed.

Alethia: not all hospitals are non-profit.

magic_one: I beg to differ. If I were to deliver a baby at 22 weeks, that baby would not be very viable without MASSIVE medical intervention. Where is your biblical quote on that one? But, hey, at 22 weeks they will be alive. Never mind they are blind, deaf, cognitively delayed and will never outgrow the infantile stage. They are alive--never mind the quality of that life or those around them. (Of course, I know, there will be someone who posts on here that has a healthy child who was born at 22 weeks. However, the medical community, largely believes that 24 weeks is more optimal than 22: and even then there are unknown ramifications later in life....)

I thought that hospitals were non-profit organizations. What is all this talk of no profit?

It is rare that ANY abortion is done 'for the health of the mother'...
this is a tired and overused falsehood perpetuated by abortionists wanting to keep the 'procedure' legal. Before 'legalized' abortion, efforts were made to save both the child AND mother. However, we are not living in the dark ages today...medicine has progressed to the point that you do not need 'legalized' abortion to allow physicians to save the life of a pregnant mother.
ONE abortion given at this stage, when there is no 'life of the mother' issue involved is too many...you are killing a human child. This child can live outside the womb...he/she is NOT a 'tissue mass'.
MagicOne

Well, as long as they are not making a profit, THEN it is fine. Just make sure you are not making a profit while killing human lives...
MagicOne

Proverbs 24:11-12
11. If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
12. If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

As second trimester abortions are and have been legal, there is no reason that a state university hospital should not provide this service. Very few abortions take place this late and those that do are largely undertaken for the health of the mother.

SarahB: Why do you say that?

Anyone who thinks that 2nd trimester abortions are a great idea should go ahead and research how they are performed. If you can do this without crying or vomiting, then you can go ahead and support an organization who wishes to perform them.

As far as victims of incest or rape go, I think that these individuals do exist but not to the capacity that abortion proponents want you to believe. There are other options for them, including adoption or keeping the baby. What a beautiful blessing to come out of a horrible situation.

Abortions are down 14% in Wisconsin, the state of WI tracks abortions. The biggest age group is 20-29 that receive an abortion, well over 50% in this state. These women need support. Many males get a girl in trouble, then tells her to "abort or she is on her own." Child support needs to start at conception. And they are great little tax deductions!

As distasteful as abortion is to everyone, including me, I applaud UW Madison for stepping up to the plate, and trying to provide this needed service.

"They say there won't be any government funding and won't be any profit."

" How will they be paid for? Someone has to pay."

Yes, someone has to pay...but...that doesn't mean there will be a profit.

Abortion opinions aside... They say there won't be any government funding and won't be any profit. How will they be paid for? Someone has to pay.

This is just sick and cruel..

How in the world can someone do this..Apparently some are uninformed that there are other options other than MURDER!!!!

This plan is dead in the water.

let the blogging begin