My point is that everyone's speculation is as valid or invalid as any other's due to the lack of facts presented. When Irishlady4ev wrote "Where does it say drinking was involved?” you claimed it was "blind ignorance" not to think so as you apparently do. I find it peculiar that you are sensitive and defensive of perceived insults directed at you but are so insensitive and blasé about the ones you dish out. And it most certainly was you that brought marijuana into this discussion when you taunted Zoom about a statement he made from an earlier discussion involving your favorite theme of justifying marijuana due to its supposedly less harmful effects compared to alcohol. It was humorous to read your pretentious denial that it wasn’t you but rather me that brought it up. So climb down off of that cross, Kid, I’m not crucifying you today, nor and I persecuting you unjustly.

all logical assumptions. gee in a parking garage but not in THAT bar. have you ever gone out with friends?? should we call deputy fife?? whats bar time in wi now?? still 2:30?? its a way more logical and possible answer that those punks were outside at 2:00 going TO that bar and not FROM that bar than it is to assume they were there for a non alcohol related situation. ive NEVER denied they may have been there cuz of marijuana. in fact if you read my earlier posts i ACKNOWLEDGE thats a possibility when i said 'if i denied there was a chance of them smoking pot...yes thats blind ignorance'. im not saying there was not, or are not, other possible situations...and i apologize if i said 4 when it was actually only 3 men that punched a man causing him to die. is that number really relevant to you?? but the point, MY POINT, is that to deny there was alcohol involved would...be...blind ignorance. you asked me if i thought it would be blind ignorance to deny they stepped out to smoke weed. i said yes...that would be blind ignorance. yet rather than agree with me and say it would also be blind ignorance to think that alcohol was not involved you do like the other anti-potters and try to prove that youre...i dont know...more rite?? maybe smarter?? either way youre doin the complete opposite...

By the way Kid, the article above does not say how many men were in the group of men that killed Mr. Byars but the Kenosha News article I linked says that there were 3, not the 4 you thought you read above. And If you had read the links below that Janesvillean provided you would have known that the group of men ran off to a car parked at a parking lot nearby after hitting Mr. Byars and not the lot at the bar and so logic may have lead you to suspect that your assumption could well be in error.
.
Perhaps the group of men were engaged in a different type of neighborhood watch, the opportunistic type.

Here's a clip from today's Kenosha News online including excerpts from an interview with Kenosha Police Sgt. Hugh Rafferty "After examining video from inside the bar, police believe the men involved were not inside Big Shotz prior to the incident, Rafferty said."
.
So Kid, if the group of men were not in the bar, your assumption becomes less valid doesn't it since no one knows where they were prior to the crime or what purpose they had for being outside the bar?
.
Here's the link to that item so you can examine it yourself since you seem to doubt my veracity, http://www.kenoshanews.com/news/police_p...

How's this for a set of assumptions, Kid. Maybe the group of men where hanging around outside the bar looking for trouble. Maybe they were teenagers and couldn't get past the I.D. check. Maybe they were stone cold sober criminals looking for their next opportunity like looking for a drunk to roll. Maybe they were never in that bar or any bar that night and just happened to be passing by. Maybe they were trying to sell some marijuana to exiting bar patrons and enjoying some themselves. Maybe you should expand your resolution to include any use of the word ignorant whether you direct it at Gazettefan or Irishlady4ev as it inevitably redirects itself back towards you.

Being a huge pot head *isn't* that big of a deal.

whether these guys were sober or drunk or on drugs i don't think it really matters either way they had no right to do what they were doing to anyone. Assuming they were drunk while outside a bar is probably right, they also could of been on other things as well.

take what so hard dillnewbie?? the fact that you fail to see logic here?? did you read my last post...or the story for that matter?? tell me...what is YOUR assumption of what the 4 men were doing...outside a bar....at 2:00 in the morning...harassing women...and punching dudes. if you think i have 'little basis for my assumption' would you please enlighten us as to what you think the correct assumption may be or at least why my assumption has little basis??

Don't take it so hard Kid. You made an assumption that you have little basis for and I illustrated that with one of my own that I knew you would relate to. From your reaction, my point was well made even if it was not well received as it seems to have struck a nerve.

lets look at 'facts as stated above'

FACT AS STATED ABOVE: a group of men were outside a bar at 2:00 in the morning.
ASSUMPTION: in the middle of feb a group of four men outside a bar are NOT neighborhood watch.

FACT AS STATED ABOVE: they harassed some 'female friends' of the victim.
ASSUMPTION: if they ARE neighborhood watch they would be there to help, not harass

FACT AS STATED ABOVE: they punched the victim causing him to fall and die.
ASSUMPTION: there was a reason 4 men were outside a bar at 2:00 in the a.m. chosing to harass some girls and chosing to punch their defender to his death. that reason may be either the bar closed(where they were drinking) or they HAPPENED to be outside of a bar smoking marijuana...at 2:00 in the a.m.

now billnewbie, as a rational, logical thinking adult are you really going to sit there and say, based on 'the facts as stated above' that your 'hypothetical assumption is just as valid' as mine?? class...id like to welcome the blind ignorance of the week award winner....

I wasn't trying to start world war 3 Kid, I was just trying to point out that you assumed the group of men were drinking, but the story doesn't even say they were in the bar. My hypothetical assumption is just as valid as yours, or maybe I should say just as invalid given the facts as stated above.

janesvillean: Thanks for the leads on the other stories regarding this tragedy. I never got to the video, I was crying by the end of the first article. I hope the guy that did this has a conscience and turns himself in. And I agree with the kid; alcohol more than likely played a role.

thats ridiculous latinmami. go back an read this blog. show me where i try to 'convince people that...being a big pot head is no big deal'. cuz i did no such thing. again, im gonna type this real slow so you can maybe comprende. YOU BROUGHT MY RECREATIONAL USE INTO THIS CONVO, insulting me at the same time by saying my lifestyle choice makes me 'slower and dumber'. please latinmami...tell me how you would react if i made an ignorant incorrect stereotype about you??

no i just meant you are a little high strung because if you can't get your point why your rec. habit is better then you freak out "dude"

are you loco latinmami?? i mean seriously. call me high strung?? billnewbie brought pot into this convo point blank askin me a question. instead of doing what the anti-potters do, which is ignore a point blank question, i ANSWERED it. then i get blasted by some, including YOU telling me my choice makes me 'slower and dumber'. i DEFEND myself...pointing out that i DIDNT EVEN BRING POT INTO THIS CONVO...and yer gonna call me 'high strung' for that?? yeah...but im the 'slower and dumber' one...sure...

kid i think you need more than the pot you smoke you are a little high strung

a) ill blog about whatever i want whenever i want, as ive told peeps in the past, who dont like my posts(yet continue to read them an then use their time to tell me how to use my time;)if you dont like what i write please click on 'suggest removal' as frequently as you like i wont be offended. but 2)i did not bring pot into this convo. pay attention if you want to blast me for what i write.

i think about 50% of people drink without any problems and the other 50% do nothing but cause problems

i don't see anywhere in the article about pot, but either way if they were on both or one it does not matter or if they were sober for that fact they had to right to harrass the girls or hit the guy. and kid every article that comes up you find the need to think you should convince people that you being a big pot head is no big deal, it really isnt a big deal it makes you slower and dumber

billnewbie: if i denied there was a chance of them smoking pot...yes thats blind ignorance. but i dont see anywhere i said anything about them not smoking pot. soooo are you just askin my opinion or are you insinuating that we should believe they were outside smoking pot and im incorrectly assuming it had something to do w alcohol...at 2:00 in the morning...outside a bar?? at 2:00 in the morning even if they did smoke pot, id bet good money the intoxication that caused them to harass the female friends and then punch the victim had more to do w the 'eviler of two evils' than a hitter or two smoked outside the bar. but to say that a 'group of men' outside a bar at 2:00 in the morning maybe were not drinking is silly. you know it.

I dont think it is a bad thing that i don't want to go out to the bars and i don't do it to offend anyone or yourself, there are a ton of violent things that happen in the bars these days, shootings, fights, sexual harrassment. i dont look down on people at all for hanging out in the bars my friends do it all the time i just don't want to be there myself.

If they stepped outside to smoke some weed the next thing they would probably do is try and figure out where the nearest Taco Bell is...

billnewbie: You said "Hey kid, what if the group of men had stepped out of the bar to smoke some weed? Wouldn't it be blind ignorance to assume they did not?"

No. It's safe to say that the majority of people at a bar are there to consume alcohol, which is the general purpose of bars. I don't think you can safely assume they were there to smoke weed. Or to shoot up heroin, snort coke, or smoke crack, or any other illegal activity. Do people do these things at bars? Sure. But I think they're the exception, and not the rule.

Latinmami2 - I think crime "in general" (not just in bars) occurrs or appears to occur "more and more" during tough economic times (not to mention other factors). Violent crime doesn't just happen in and around bars - it can happen ANYWHERE! So to "avoid bars like the plague" sounds a bit extreme - But hey. . .it's a free country and if you feel safer by avoiding bars then it's your choice. I'm just glad everyone doesn't think like you or people like me couldn't make a living.

Journal-Sentinel, Popular Kenosha teacher dies after assault outside bar
http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/40063...
.
Kenosha News, Man dies in street confrontation
http://www.kenoshanews.com/home/man_dies...
.
Kenosha News, Family, friends grappling with loss
http://www.kenoshanews.com/home/family_f...
.
WTMJ, Kenosha Middle School Teacher Killed Outside Bar
http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/400589...
(video, have tissues ready)
.
A real tragedy. Seems like an amazing young man who is already missed by many people.

This man was a hero. How honorable to intervene to protect his friends.

Hey kid, what if the group of men had stepped out of the bar to smoke some weed? Wouldn't it be blind ignorance to assume they did not?

Very sad. Not many people would have done what he did. Those who attacked him should be locked up as punching bags...

This kind of stuff may not always happen but it does happen more and more.

Latinmami2 - My boyfriend has owned a bar for 30 years and this kinda thing DOESN'T always happen!

It is a jungle out there. Be on guard. Best to hole up in your house and never go anywhere in public. Anarchy will soon follow.

this is horrible, it goes to show that the bar most times is not a great thing. my prayers go out to this young man's family. For the people who did this to him they are going to have to live with this for the rest of their lives even if they did not mean to kill this man their actions against the women and this man are why people are not safe going out to bars anymore. I avoid them like the plague just because this stuff is the normal thing that happens

Whoever did this. You will get caught and you will pay the price and you will live with this for the rest of your life. You deserve the guilt and punishment.
For all the other men..sorry let me rephrase that. For all the adolescents that act like this when you're out in public. You know who you are. Everyone has dealt with one of you at some point being out. The ones that get some alcohol in them and think they can act like socially retarded morons and harass people trying to have a good time. The ones that automatically turn into tough guys. Go home and look at yourselves in the mirror. If you like what you see, I have news for you. You are the only one that likes it. Grow up and get a life.

im aware peeps go to bars w/out drinking. im one of them. the victim stopped a 'group of men' from harassing his 'female friends'. the victim maybe wasnt drinking. but do you really think for a second that the 'group of men' werent?? please. that would be just blind ignorance.

Where does it say drinking was involved? some people go to bars and do not drink. FYI they do serve food in bars. also some just go to be social. I hope they do get the men involved and My prayers to his family and all his students.

I hope they find this low life coward that is hiding now from the police, Alochol rears its ugly head again

zoom: in the smoking ban blog your comment was 'Public drinking only kills others if you drink and get behind the wheel'. still agree with that statement??

I hope they find the loser that punched the teacher, and that he is charged with manslaughter.

How sad that the one doing the right thing are the ones that fall victims... in this case fatally.

My thoughts and prays go out to this man's family. He is a hero.

How sad. I hope the coward(s) that are hiding come forward and realize what they've done and who they've taken out of society.