whoanellie: This is NOT a crime, I mean if the current status of the law means anything to you. You may believe it should be, but it is not illegal.

"Laurel Rice, chair of UW's department of obstetrics and gynecology, testified during the hearing and said she expected the new center to do about 120-125 abortions annually. Most of them would be done in cases of rape or incest or on disabled babies." Lifenews.com Steven Ertlet editor

12 year old explains abortion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOR1wUqvJ...

Evansville: Put the Dr's in jail too, they help perpetrate this crime! You suggested some websites,now I recommend to you to watch the movie the silent scream. See what exactly they do to these poor babies and then tell me it's not a life!!!Murder is murder and it should be prosecuted. I myself have had a number of miscarriages and everytime I have been into the dr to check it out. It killed me. If you have a miscarriage, you must have wanted that baby because you didn't abort,so you calling a miscarriage a crime is absurd and ignorant!!! It is a horendous thing to go through and heartwrenching too! I know my babies are in heaven and I will see them someday, but I would never have murdered them!! God giveth and God taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord!

Also, if it is murder- first degree homicide... then you support putting these women in jail for life, right?

Ok hannah-
Then you support the questioning of every woman that has a miscarriage by the police.
I hope you never have to endure this, or your daughter.
Ok maa'm, we have to ask these questions-we realize you have you rfeet in stirrups and you are in terrible physical and emotional pain- but let's get that out of the way. Can you please tell me everything you did over the past few days, who saw you, who we can speak to to corroberate your claim, and would you sign this consent form so your medical forms can be reviewed by a legal nurse? Thanks....

I agree that a healthy fetus that was created under normal circumstances should not be aborted after 19 weeks. If one truly did not want to have a baby, 19 weeks and beyond are not the time to flip a coin. Though not noted in this story, most abortions after 19 weeks are due to extreme genetic disorders, rape, incest, and conditions which may affect the mothers health and well being. Unless you know what the outcome of severe holoprosencephaly is, please do not question or condemn people who make hard choices in trying situations. It is a matter of personal belief. If you have never been faced with this option, you cannot understand. The late term abortion issue is not going to be resolved here, but having this option for some is going to make a terrible situation somewhat easier to cope with.

Thanks,evansvillehousewife. As I noted before, there's a book entitled "The Handmaids Tale" by Margaret Atwood that should be recommended reading for all who believe in legally declaring "life" from the moment of conception. The legal implications are beyond mind-boggling. Monty Python's skit "Every Sperm Is Sacred" also comes to mind ;-)

Two pieces of media i like.. one pro-life, the other pro-choice...
http://abortionclinicdays.blogs.com/

and this short commerical (don't worry, not graphic, just inspirational and happy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z8...

Argh, proartist, I am sorry. i meant truth1 and 2dognight. Oopsie...

turth1--- No, you TOTALLY missed it, again!

How do you KNOW it was natural or abortion?
EXAMPLE... A woman is pregnant one day. Tow days later she is bleeding and the fetus is absent from her uterus. HOW DO YOU KNOW if it was abortion or miscarriage? Again, I am NOT ASKING the MORAL DIFFERENCE between an abortion and a miscarriage!

IF you feel a fetus is a human, then THAT WOMAN- the one who was pregnant one day then NOT the next... MUST be subject to an investigation. After all, one day she had a complete human, worthy of legal protection, inside her... the next day it is missing!

How ca you believe her that it was a miscarriage? Yes, it happens and it is natural, but HOW DO YOU KNOW? Are you simply going to trust women to be honest about when they miscary? How many abortions would then go on undetected because women could just say they miscarried and then get away with killing their baby!!!.

SO, yes, if a woman miscarries and it is found, through police questioning and medical tests, to be a miscariiage, then of course it was a tragedy. BUT, IF it was abortion, then you feel she "murdered" her baby and should be punished.

Now... AGAIN..... How come no has yet answered my point?

I still believe that even the most rabid fetus lovers do NOT view them as equal to a born child, because I have yet to meet one that thinks every miscarriage should be investigated, or even that a woman who has an abortion should sentenced to life in prison!

evansville - I believe my response was quite on-point...
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Random/accidental versus deliberate.
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2 dognight wrote:The child conceived is part of the community.

I don't care. I'm still not hosting a block party in my uterus.

"Are we chosing who can and cannot live in the community."

Yes, all the time. Rich neighborhoods choose through homeowner's association and pricing who can live in their gated communities. The legal system constantly decides if a person is fit to be in the community or in jail.

It is really a struggle between individual rights and community rights in my mind.

Define a community right... this may just be a new term for "law."

"It is difficult but chosing who lives and who doesn't leads to many other issues of choice."

This is not an issue of the community choosing to live and who doesn't... it is a woman deciding to have a child or not.

truth1- That's not what i asked,nor the point I was trying to make.
You prove my point... yes, miscarriage is natural, but so is SIDS and other natural causes.
AGAIN-proartist and truth1- if you believe a fetus is a person, then why do you not advocate it get treated like one? Read my first post again SLOWLY and notice the question/.... IF YOU BELIEVE A FETUS IS A PERSON, THEN WHY DO YOU NOT WANT EVERY MISCARRIAGE TO BE TREATED AS A POSSIBLE MURDER?

Bostonbill- ..........its QUITE the twist on the word "service", isn't it..........

Evansvillehousewife- The difference between a miscarriage and the deliberate abortion of a healthy baby is a lot like the difference between a hunting accident where a stray bullet kills a hunter, or when someone deliberately aims at the other person and shoots.....One is random and lamentable, the other is deliberate and murderous.
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proartist
Forced to surrender a part of your body?
Pregnancy is a normal function of the woman's body.
The child conceived is part of the community.
Are we chosing who can and cannot live in the community. It is really a struggle between individual rights and community rights in my mind.
It is difficult but chosing who lives and who doesn't leads to many other issues of choice.
Do we get rid of those who are not prooductive??
Very slippery slope.

Psalms 139:13-16: For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
If a mother leaves a baby somewhere and the baby dies, she will be found and charged with murder, a doctor can perform an abortion and the mother and doctor will not be charged. Murder is murder

Please forgive me if I am reiterating anything that may have already been written. I just read this story and feel so incensed by a particular statement, so I have to ask, WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON? I haven’t read any previous entries yet but I think this, “The service is intended to make up for the December retirement of a Madison abortion doctor. In his absence, the Madison area has not had a provider who will perform abortions after 19 weeks.” is the most disgusting, inappropriate, insensitive crap that I have read in a very long time. This reminds me of the movie, “Soylent Green”.
Geez, we need to meet quotas now!!!!

Fact: Even those of you who believe a fetus is a person from conception don't believe that a fetus should be treated like a human.

Why I believe this: When a body is found, the area and the body itself is investigated to see if the death is natural or a result of foul play. If fetus is a person, why should we take the word of a woman who claims to have miscarried? If a fetus is a person and has died, then the uterus is a crime scene and the woman should be thoroughly interrogated. After all, if she brought a dead two-week old infant to a doctor, wouldn't you want her questioned?

The typical answer I often get to this question is " Well, miscarriage is NATURAL and GOD decides it." My question then is, OK, then why do you get a free pass when a fetus dies and not a three year old? Why we do allow miscarriages to occur with no inquiry if a fetus is equal to a three year old?

The answer, of course, is that miscarriage is so common and so frequent that most of us feel that questioning a sick, bleeding woman would be a most uncompassionate violation. Most of us- even the staunchest pro-lifers- would be loathe to bother a woman in such a time.

My point in all this is that no one truly believes a fetus is entirely equal to a born child, even if they say they believe otherwise. To believe a fetus ia human is to dismiss a woman is incidental in sustaining that life- as air sustains us, yet it has no rights. A woman is not entitled to compassion, because protection and justice for the fetus trumps the woman's right to comfort.

Call it "judgemental" or whatever you want..Ripping a healthy baby out from a healthy mother is murder, no better than any other murder....Yes, I am "judgemental" of murder...Kill someone while driving drunk and I'll be "judgemental" of that too.

Rocky - Being judgemental is not a name - it is an adjective to describe behavior. If someone chooses to be judgemental that is their right. Like I have stated, what you choose to believe is your right and I respect that. It is unfortunate that you can not say the same thing.

Just1 - you like to accuse me and others of being "judgmental" and "condemning", but does asserting my opinion that we don't have the right to choose life or death for others, including the preborn, qualify? Or is it that when running out of logical discussion, the next best topic is to call names?

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Frankly, there is really no justification for termination of a viable fetus, which is what this clinic will be doing. These are babies that families across Janesville are just waiting to love.

Anyway, its not a question of "forced", its one of finding a place that will do the dirty work, and apparently the UW wants to become one of those places.

proartist- "Forced"?...No, but thousands of people risk life and limb on a regular basis and even die trying to save complete strangers. And most people, to a certain extent or another, would do this for a stranger in dire circumstances.
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Can you imagine a world where this was not so?
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2dognight: Another question to ponder: Could anyone give an example when any individual is legally forced against their will to surrender personal, physical autonomy of their own body, or even just a body part, for an extended time to enable the survival of another? Apparently this would be the case should all pregnant women be forced to carry all pregnancies to term as mandated by those who oppose all abortion and it would thus give rise to a completely new, misogynist legal precedent.

2dog- ....a brutal society produces brutality.

By having legal abortion are we sending the message that it is a choice to kill our babies if they are not convenient or a bother or cry to much?
Why is it we are having news of parents killing their helpless babies after birth. Just when does life begin? Those babies can't live outside the womb with out help.

I know that it it quite early in a pregnancy when the baby(fetus?)can have a different blood type than the mother(pregnant person?).
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For people that want to know when life begins, it SURELY has begun when one has or is far enough along to have a different blood type from themselves.
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justsome1- I have a great interest in hearing all kinds of points of view on all kinds of things...I also have an interest in right and wrong....Yes, there ARE such things as right and wrong..If someone wanted to kill you, I'm sure you would say that was "wrong".
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"Facts" are not the same thing as a "point of view".
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truth1 - Sadly, you are being extremly judgemental and do not even care to hear someone else's point of view. Thankfully the law gives you a choice to be that way.

I have a beautiful two year old daughter. When I was in my second trimester with her I started to get some serious health problems. I NEVER once thought about aborting her. Thankfully both of us are here today & healthy. When I got pregnant again it was a huge decision whether or not to keep our child, because we didn't want to go through the same thing & leave our daughter motherless or leave two children motherless, or go through an entire pregnancy & lose the child when/during birth. Abortion was an option for us but I was only five weeks. I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing but we never got/had to make that choice because we lost the baby at five an half weeks. If ever in the situation again we would have to face it all over again. (yes we use birth control but its not 100%) I don't know if I would abort a child in the second trimester because most of the time you feel it already moving and you have a connection. I would have to be put in a serious situation. I am PRO Choice. But I do NOT believe in using abortion as birth control.

wasp - Sadly, almost none of the "choice" people even care when it is that human life begins, so thats a moot point.
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Its a "legal choice" even if it is the brutal killing of a human being....Thats all that matters to some.
.

Rocky - I never said that your choice was to support abortions. I never said that my choice was to support abortions either. Thank goodness the LAW states that we both get to make our own choice on this. You can protest away, however, condemning those that don't believe the way you do does not make you the better person.

I would think that not knowing for sure would be enough argument against it.

but we are the sick and crazy ones?

How is it someone can be charged for homicide for killing a child in the womb, but yet the mother can choose to have the child killed? When does the child have a voice? Mommy, I want to live...

thats not a answer! this is not about the IRS! answer the question! thank u :)

Wasp: You have aptly demonstrated the very crux of the issue because your question has a completely different answer to every single person on this forum. It has a different answer within the myriad of faith communities. Even all medicine and science can't definitively agree upon sentience and viability. Everyone has a completely different rationale for their answer to your question. THAT is exactly why each individual must be allowed the choice to make the determination of their own reproduction for themselves without others condemning, indimidating, or making public policy about such an intimate and consequential decisions. If you begin labeling or want conception to be a legal, definitive time when life begins, I think the IRS would be interested . . .

wow, no answer! Mmm.....? what could it be?

WOW thank you for a response. not an answer but a response. How can anyone make a decision to abort if they don't have an answer. Is it based on convenience?

yah, good question! so when is it guys? come on Pro-Choice people when is it!?

I would accept a justified answer from anyone, when does life begin? Surely an important question when talking about abortion.

Just1- refer back to my original post, please. You say because I oppose the death penalty therefore I am pro-choice? Hey - I choose what I eat at Red Robin or Applebees, too. I even choose what I wear every morning. Does that mean I support abortion rights? Puhleese!!!

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The "freedom of choice" question is a red herring. We all support choice in minor questions of daily living and many major questions, like who to marry, or what job to do. The question at hand is do we have the right to choose when to end another person's life - even when that person is completely dependent on me for survival. I say clearly and loudly - NO!

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To others - I look forward to seeing you at the protests.

Actually, what are the laws based on? Stealing is a crime because we believe it is wrong to take from others. These are the beliefs I am referring to, not a belief in heaven or hell, God or no god. At some point some beliefs are accepted as fact, for example rape is wrong and should be punished. We base our laws on these beliefs. perhaps the ten commandments. You can believe that god didn't write them and they just seem like a good guideline anyway.
Anyway........I was questioning the basis of belief as, how do we decide what is right or wrong from a legal standpoint.

truth1 - There are lots of things in life that you CAN choose to do. Your life is all about the choices that you make and the consequences (good or bad) that go along with those choices. For example, if you have a life threatening incident and the ONLY place that offers the services you need is the clinic (s) mentioned in this article and you choose not to be taken there, then you and you alone have to face the consequences of that decision. It is your decision to make and no one should be forced to make if for you.

As a person who has participated in peaceful protests against abortion I can attest to the fact that the "pro-choicers" act in obscene ways deliberately taunting peaceful God loving people who are desperately trying to get through to the abortionists, "clients" and staff at death mills. I have decided that the power of prayer is the only way this hellish practice will ever end in this country. We put a president in office that endorses late term abortion yet professes to be a Christian so all I can say is that all of you out there that want this to stop need to take this to Jesus as many times a day as you can. Let it be a constant prayer. If we all did this I believe this would change. Politics, actions of individuals etc..., God controls it all... and we have to let go and go to Him in prayer and supplication. Trying to fight this in our own power has not worked. And pray for the poor lost souls who think this is OK. "Forgive them father for they know not what they do" is all I can say.

Point taken. What if a person killed a pregnant woman? Would that person be charged with two homicides? Would it depend on if the baby was 'wanted' or not? Would it depend on how far along the mother was?

Wasp - People's beliefs are their own. There is no justification needed. Your belief is your own. People should not condemn you for what you belief nor should you condemn other people for theirs. You do not have to agree with them, you do not even have to like them, but you also do not have to live with them. Again, what if you were not given the choice to follow your beliefs? I have found that the people that avoid the question of “what if” have no desire to explore the other possibilities that might be out there.

There are all kinds of things I don't have the right to "choose" to do.

My point with the "what if" statement is that people often use these words to distract and to justify something that is wrong. My question still goes unanswered, "when does life begin, and how do you justify this?.

Wasp - Thanks goodness there are people out there that ask "What if". Just think of all the things you now take for granted were never thought of because no one asked "What if".
hannah - It was not meant to be a comparison. Try thinking "outside the box".
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"What if" EVERYONE had to give up the freedom to choose?

There needs to be a "power of attorney" type of public document whereby people can prevent any ambulance or rescue squad from taking them to any UW facility if/when this actually happens.
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I would be horrified to find out I was taken to a place that commits such acts.
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Taking a human life is illegal, with the exception of certain circumstances......Self-preservation, war, capital punishment. Much of this is semantics, the question posed is "when does life begin, and how do you justify what you believe?"

What is the basis for anyone's beliefs? What they feel? What they've read? The law? What their parents taught them? What foundation do you have? And how do you justify it?

We are talking about humans, right? This reminds me of the sixth grade when the teacher says, "everyone is to remain seated", and without exception some kid says, "what if there's a fire", "What if i sat on a tack" what if I have to go to the bathroom"
Killing animals is not considered "Murder" by law.

Wasp – Your definition of life must then include non-human life as well. Does that make the hunter who hunts for sport a murderer as well? How about the chef who prepares lobsters – which are boiled alive? Does life include only intelligence that we as humans can understand or is it more? Is not the ability to choose what makes us unique?

I think this, I think that, I like chocolate ice cream, I believe if i run fast enough i can fly. What's true? Can anyone answer my previous question?

I am glad that women have the option to choose an abortion or not. For all for you who are so against it have you ever thought of the women who got raped??? Also I think its crap that people stand in front of the building protesting... GO HOME its none of your business what other people do to themselves.

LIFE
the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

KILL
1. to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.
2. to destroy; do away with; extinguish

MURDER
Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
To kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

What? Rational thought turns everyone off?

Obviously murder is wrong, I think we can all agree on that. So the discussion should really revolve around 'at what point in human is a human able to be murdered' At birth? When the thing can survive on it's own? Or when it begins to grow (conception)?

Rocky - No need to ease my mind. You just demonstrated that you are pro-choice. You choose not to support the death penalty.

For those who seem confused, "Choice consists of the mental process of thinking involved with the process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them for action." (Wikepedia) Please note that this does not mean ONE position (the so called term of "pro-abortion). Choice means MULTIPLE options. Believe it or not, millions who support and work to keep all YOUR reproductive choices accessible, safe and legal have made their own choice to have children! Choice means having the ability to determine the reproduction of your own body within the privacy of your own beliefs, with your own medical professionals, and with consideration of your own life's circumstances without the interference of religious zealots or the government. (Suggested reading: "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood) There is no more intimate and personal choice that will impact every other facet of a woman's fate. It's sadistically ironic that the same people who don't think any given woman is intelligent or wise enough to make decisions about her own reproduction is still smart enough to produce and raise another generation . . .

Maybe these UW abortion backers would like to return to Neanderthal practices. A frequent method of infanticide in pre-historic times was simply to abandon the infant, leaving it to die by exposure (i.e. hypothermia, hunger, thirst, or indeed animal attack). Hopefully, someday, these abortionists will evolve with the rest of us.

Rocky,
I would really love to hear how being pro-choice and anti-death penalty is incongruous.
Most pro-choice people I know feel that life is very precious but see that in some instances, pregnant woman should have control over their body until a certain point in the pregnancy.
Those pro-choice people that are also anti-death penalty are against it for reasons such as not wanting to risk killing an innocent adult or because they feel the financial costs are too high.
I fail to see how the two are related but I would honestly be interested to see a relation.

To each his/her own feelings, thoughts, and emotions. People find the need to take such actions for a variety of reasons.

Are we the final Judge in the matter? On their Judgement Day, do we determine if they go to their Heaven or Hell?

I do not mean to disrespect anyone's thoughts, feelings, or emotions, but just as we have the right to free speech, they have a right to make this decision for what they believe is right for them. Again, are we the final Judge?

I hope that those who participate in the MURDER of the innocent and helpless will someday be made to pay for it.

Ever seen a aborted 24 week "fetus" right before your eyes? I have. Let's just say that to see this, is to know the meaning of "heart wrenching." This, coupled with impact of realizing the sheer inhumanity involved in the process to produce such a sight is almost beyond description. It is, quite simply, horrific.

justsome1here - you point out a valid criticism of "pro-life" when you discuss the death penalty. It is equally incongruent for many in the pro-choice crowd to oppose the death penalty.

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To ease your mind, I am pro-life in all cases, which includes opposition to the death penalty. If life is precious, then all life is precious.

Just because you are pro choice does not mean you have spit on someone, are uncivilized, crazy, or "sick". Why are you bashing people? No one was bashing you or calling you names. Just stick to the subject. What have I said or done that makes me not a good person? You know nothing about me, so please do not make assumptions. If you are a good person, you would not do that, or make opinions about folks you have never met or even talked to. By the way, did any of the drs/people involved in this article laugh about terminating a pregnancy? I haven't heard about that one..I have read all of the posts here, no one seems to be laughing. Again, stick to the current article.

There is much evidence that abortion is very safe in regard to its possible impact on future pregnancies. Research has shown that both abortion by medication (medical abortion) and abortion by surgery (surgical abortion) very rarely result in infertility or complications in subsequent pregnancies. - www.mayoclinic.com

Thank you Rocky! I've been spit on, almost ran over, squirted with a hose and kicked! To name a few... but we are the uncivilized and crazy people? Not the way I look at it! People who are pro-choice are sick! If they are good people they would not say or do the things they do. And say that they are going to kill the fetus or the baby and then laugh about it:( now if that is not sick then I don't know what is?

thevoiceofkids - Not sure where you are getting your facts but may I suggest researching infertility at
www.mayoclinic.com.

So, you are saying that all women who have in vitro have had abortions in the past? Why would you even mention that...It is so obviously not true, not even close to being true. Yes, I agree about the birth control probably causing infertility issues, but what does that have to do with this? Should women not take birth control ever? Have even more unwanted pregancies? Again, why bring it up?

I am glad the UW supports a womans right to choose. Thank you Roe v. Wade.

Now why is it that we have in vitro fertilization?

Abortion causes scar tissue which causes infertility.
Did you know that infertility is the highest it's ever been?
All the birth-control messes with the woman's cycles and reproduction. And years after women stop taking birth control are still unable to conceive.
Did you know the average age to be married for women is 27 and men 32? Look at the Census Bureau!
Did you know by the time a woman is 27 she is not as fertile?

Rocky - Pro-choice is not the same as pro-death. There are many people that are pro-life but also believe in capital punishment. Using your logic, pro-life is pro-life, no matter whose life that is.

So, I should have my children taken away from me because I am pro choice? I would do anything for my children, but that is a completely seperate issue. How about keeping on the topic and stop bashing eachother. These abortions are done on extreme rare occasions for certain medical conditions. Especially in this day and age of in vitro, fertility drugs, increased maternal age....this means increased complications often. These are usually discovered between 15-20 weeks and occassionally the best option is to end the pregnancy immediately instead of injuring the mother mentally, physically, or continuing a pregnancy with a baby or babies who are not viable. It is very sad, often these mothers have been trying for years to get pregnant. They will have to live with their decision for the rest of their lives, and be judged by their maker if they believe in one. Same for any of us, for any of the decisions we have made in our lives. Don't judge until you are there, in HER shoes.

and ps- you'd have to boycott more than just UW, the surgery center is owned by other healthcare facilities as well. Good luck trying to find quality healthcare in the Dane county area if that is what you are going to do.

Wishabone - would you care or intervene if I made a "choice" to rape, steal, or murder? (Rhetorical question) I mean - if it doesn't involve you, why do you care? Obviously because you value the rights of other people. That is what the pro-life crowd does as well. We see that baby - especially that 20th week, viable fetus - as a real person with all the same right to life, liberty and the prusuit of happiness that you and I enjoy.

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I am looking forward to joining the protests against this clinic. For those who have never been, you should join in. They aren't pretty. Mostly you see the pro-life people standing quietly and peacefully, holding signs, praying and sometimes singing. (Yes - there are the occasional wackos who get face time on the news shows, but they are a small minority). The pro-death crowd, however, shows their true colors. Pro-lifers are routinely ridiculed, spit upon, harassed and insulted. The police rarely take notice of the behavior, but if a pro-life protester walks a foot off the sidewalk, they will be arrested.

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This is the time to stand up and be counted! Let your opinion be heard - peacefully and publicly. To my pro-life friends, I remind you that we respect all life and liberty, especially that of those we disagree with. Follow Dr. King's example of non-violence and peace.

I have heard that 95%+ of children with down syndrome are aborted:( which are the most loving and precious people we have on the face of this earth! that's sad that we can pick and choose who lives or dies. Like Terri Schiavo who parents want to keep her alive and her estranged husband killed her. By taking out her feeding tube which made her die of malnutrition & dehydration. We might as well call ourselves the Nazis. Pick and choose who is not good enough. Mother Teresa once said it is a poverty to have abortion's that way we may live as we wish.

Did you know parts of the world are having a population implosion?

Did you know they are now paying people to have babies?

Did you know our own country gives you a tax credit if you have children?

Did you know the economic impact a child has on the economy?

If pro-choice women abort their babies and pro-life women keep their babies in a generation or two this will no longer be a problem.
God is just and rules.

Men only count when a woman can get money out of him.

wishabone: Very well said! Thank you.

what about the men who also help make the baby and God?

Let me rephrase that. I don't understand why people are so vocal about a decision that is none of their business, unless they are making that decision for themselves. The right "choice" is the one that you can live with.

I don't understand why other people are so vocal about a decision that is none of their business.

Did you know there are 1,500,000+ surgical abortions done each year?
Did you know that there are over a million+ or who knows illegal and legal immigrants each year coming to the United States?
Did you know that we are not at a replacement rate of having children and dying off?

2006 American Community Survey
Owner-occupied homes
75,086,485
Median age (years)
36.4
(X)
+/-0.2
Foreign born37,547,789
12.5%
+/-125,642
Average household size
2.61 so that is .61 kids wow!!
(X)
+/-0.01

Total population
299,398,485

I'm really curious how many unwanted babies (especially unwanted babies who may have some mental or physical defect) these women who are in complete hysterics have adopted?

I hope it's a lot....There are many many unwanted children out there whose parents chose your "option"...children still waiting for homes. Patiently, I'm sure.

Calm down people.Seriosuly...if you're pro-choice you have no right to have children?

Good lord people, take a step back and be adults. You sound crazy.

Supporting legalized and safe abortion is not working on simple emotion and religious fervor. It's working with simple fact and history. Think beyond your Bibles and be rational.

I have a daughter I love beyond anything...but I'm also a RATIONAL thinker. I don't want people limiting her right to safety, nor my own, if she chooses to end a pregnancy for whatever reason.

memyself..I totally agree with you!! ANYONE that has a child and still supports abortion shouldnt have any right having children!! SERIOUSLY! How pathetic.. A child is a gift from above and people support killing them because they are to much of a low life miserable piece of junk to take responsibility for their actions!! There are so many people out there who cant have children or would love to care for a baby and yet people are just willing to MURDER them..how selfish and rude.. So if its okay for women to kill their UNWANTED babies then why isnt it okay for me to kill someone I dont want around me but yet if I did that I would go to Prison.. doesnt make much sense!! Some people need to wake up and realize its not about just them when they become pregnant..give babies and chance...what If they are the cure to cancer someday and are likely to do something wonderful in the world!! My Goodness..people need to stop being so cold heartless selfish worthless individuals and think of someone besides themselves for once!!!

Historically, women’s health needs have been secondary to the health needs of men. I applaud those health professionals that see this as a needed service and are willing to provide it in a safe environment.

Even with a legal option girls still chose to to carry the baby full term and toss it away like it is garbage. Making it legal doesn't make it any safer it just makes their choice easier. If you don't want the child put it up for adoption!

The only reason I support the right to abortion is to keep it safe. Women have been seeking ways to end unwanted pregnancies since the beginning of time (using a variety of horrific means, from back-alley abortions to Pennyroyal Tea to throwing themselves down stairs). It's not going to end with making it illegal, it's just going to make it unsafe.

Keeping it legal and safe is the only way to avoid women taking completely drastic measures to end pregnancy.

You can argue for birth control, you can argue for better decisions, this has all been beat to death...we all know there are OPTIONS out there. But safe ending of an unwanted pregnancy, no matter the reason it is unwanted, needs to remain a legal option. We know the alternative, and it's not pretty.

Let's see now, some contend that if a person working at this clinic decides not to participate in these late-term abortions as they violate their chosen moral convictions then that person should be fired and any that may have such convictions are unfit for the medical profession and should choose some other career. I guess the freedom of choice is only sacrosanct for pregnant women.

Let's make it a felony to have children without being married. Let's put women who have abortions on trial for murder, send them to prison and throw away the key. Let's make it a felony to have sex outside of marriage. The religious right will settle for nothing less. That's pretty much the way it is in Muslim countries. Maybe we need Islamic law when it comes to our permissive sexual mores. Stone any woman who has sex outside of marriage.

momof5-I assume you have 5 children hence your screen name and you are going to tell me that you support abortion? What kind of a relationship do you have with your children? I would do anything for my children and can't imagine anyone ending a life because they do not want to deal with the responsibility.

rooster: are you kidding? you seriously just compared abortionists/pro-choicers to Hitler and the Nazis? Wow! ..... here's your sign!

rooster,
Does it matter who posted such an opinion first? The second post was by someone who also suspected that the discussion would go downhill but does not support the action of the board. Is this because Rocky assumes that those that don't agree with Rocky?
I think it is likely that, due to the nature of the topic being discussed, some posters (from both sides of the issue) will get into a heated debate that will result in removed comments and potentially even closure of the message board. I don't assume that it will be due to "the other side," I also wouldn't assume that CIM or Rocky were saying so.

Heard a rumor today while at lunch that agency to help under- or uninsured (adults and teen-agers) with various issues such as birth control, substance use disorders, housing aid, etc., might use space Echo had in the church across from the county courthouse. I'd rather see proper use of birth control instead of abortion if someone doesn't want to become pregnant.

the first post was cim. why do you cim, think the discussion will go downhill fast? and i'm assuming by downhill you mean the folks who value life in the womb, babies that if born prematurily would be viable lifes. the same folks that don't agree with you will be driving the discussion "downhill." maybe it is those same folks that are trying to get the discussion of abortions out of the cemetary and drive it uphill to the pinical of reason. but i bet you won't attempt to understand that point of view because the people that don't agree with you are idiots. we americans are in the midst of our own holocost. we rationalize it like the nazies rationalized the gas chambers, in that, they put no value on a jewish life.

Just cover your eyes and shoot, that isn't murder?

wow. I read the article. It sounds as though even those who don't oppose abortion were disturbed. It's sad that it doesn't bother them unless they see the baby out of the womb alive, as though the infant isn't real until it comes out.

For those of you wishing that abortions were illegal it looks like you will have to wait until Obama is gone which is sad. I don't understand how a women in her second trimester can choose to end the life of an innocent child. How would you feel if your mother would have aborted you? This is murder...plain and simple! Read this story and tell me that you would still chose abortion:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29037216/

If any office administrative assistant refuses to do the work they are hired to do, they are fired. It doesn't matter why they might refuse to do their job. So it should be - even more so - for any medical professional who refuses to provide factual information, access, and service for any advise, well-being care, and any legal medical procedures. Personal preferences should be made at the time of choosing a career...not after being employed in a position of public service and trust.

If the people who work at the clinic dont like it they can quit. But with our economy the way it is I doubt they will be finding any other jobs very easily.
Deal with it.

It seems too many people are ignorant about second and third trimester abortions. These are given only when the woman's life is endangered or when the fetus is not viable. Women, who desperately want children, often find out that their child has, to give one example, no developed brain. In fact, if abortion in these cases were made illegal, she might have to keep even technically dead children in her womb until they come to term. These are desperate heart-wrenching predicaments and your sympathy should go to the women and their partners, who find themselves in this situation. Life is not black and white, and people should stop acting that way.

There are so many children that need adopting now! Why cant people who want to be parents, but cant, adopt older children who need saving? This would also be good for all those who dont want the governnment to pay for health care.

Check out the ad above these posts:
"Adopt a Newborn Quickly"....Yes, hurry before Wisconsin kills them!

THIS JUST MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACH!! So many out there wanting children and can give them wonderful homes, and we're allowing doctors to kill them! What is this world coming to anyway?

Go ahead ladies. Just because you couldn't decide in the first three months of your pregnancy, to kill your baby, doesn't mean it will weigh any heavier on your heart and mind in the future...

*sigh* The worst part is, they're ignoring the thoughts and wishes of many of their staff. I've kept my mouth shut on this issue the whole time, but many of their staff do not want to do this (my mother being one of them). It'll be interesting to see what happens if the staff finally take a hard stand against this.

This will keep security and Madison Police busy.

Actually, torturing dogs is allowed in Wisconsin and is becoming more so..Whether its technically "legal" or not ....www.nowisconsinpuppymills.com.
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NOW, we're going to also join Illinois and become a dead-baby-dumping-grounds too??..www.smallvictoriesusa.com(warning, graphic)
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Sorry, I meant to write: Those are not facts.

That is absolutely NOT a fact.

facts- Yep, killing/torturing dogs and humans both wrong...

My God they just ok'd murder..how sad. Bet if someone was killing puppies they would be sent right to prison. But you can kill an innocent child and not have to worry..how sad. How cheap people have made human life may God have mercy on us when he judges us.

Rocky, considering that the decision was reached unanimously, I don't see how it could be reversed. Does anyone know how that could be a possibility?

I drove by today, lots of protesting going on.

almeg-
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huh????

truth1- I don't know about any "card". But for a statement like that...Here's your sign!

CIM: Ditto! These boards have put rational health care accessability to legal and necessary procedures above the emotional rhetoric and incongruous politics. They deserve our sincere gratitude. (Though I am also SURE that this discussion will go downhill very quickly). All women everywhere deserve a the very basic human right to privacy in making their own reproductive and health decisions in accordance with their own health-care providers, their own beliefs, and their own life circumstances.

Is there any public legal document process whereby someone can sign a refusal to be taken to any UW medical facility under any emergency circumstances?

If so, I want to sign up and get the "card".

This was the wrong decision and hopefully will be reversed very soon. (Though I am also afraid that this discussion will go downhill very quickly).

This was the right decision but hopefully it will be very rare.

(Though I am afraid that this discussion will go downhill very quickly.)