Yesterday, I posted the comments below on the "Story" line and have transferred them over to the Blog thread. I have reviewed one of mespl sources and it essentially verifies the High Scope Perry Preschool study with many more participants. Only 10% of the participants were above the poverty level. These extreme gains are seen in at risk populations. I have searched and searched for a well controlled scientific survey of a diverse population and have failed to find evidence that supports that the whole population gains from an intense preschool program such as the High Scope program. Milwaukee's failure to engage it's (>90% poverty) population with the long standing 4K program is due to bastardizing the premise of the study. The student to teacher ratio in the Perry preschool study was only 5 to 1. Imagine the gains that could be made. And the costs involved. The teachers were BA or MA only. Intensive home visitations are required. None of this is required with the Wisconsin 4K programs. They just get extra funding if Home visits are included in the 4K program.

I am convinced that the only reason so many school districts pursue 4K is because the funding forked over by the state exceeds the cost to run it after start up costs are met. They need this boost in their funding due to flat or decreasing enrollment. Just about every district has already switched over to full day kindergarten for the same reason (greater funding). They have squeezed every funding drop available from that boondoggle. I did some calculations and discovered that the approximate cost of implementing full day 5 year old kindergarten throughout the state of Wisconsin is approximately equal to the amount of money the Gov. asked the schools to cut from their budgets this year.

If a real, functional 4K program such as that proposed by the High Scope Perry preschool program from the 60s were being offered to Wisconsin, cost would greatly exceed funding provided.

To mespl: I have done a great deal of research into 4K and have found the same studies which negate any "edge" 4K (or full day 5K) students have over their cohorts by grade 3 as well.

If 4K is such a boon, how is it that Milwaukee, which has had 4K for nearly 20 years, is such a failing district? You quote California studies. There's a great school system to use for an example. The teachers can't even make a living, despite having the highest pay in the nation, because of the high cost of living.

The plain truth is that 4K (and 3K as well) is based on the High Scope Perry Preschool study done in the 60s. It was the only study I have seen in which true controls were used and as scientific a method as possible was employed to evaluate the importance of pre-school FOR AT RISK CHILDREN. That is an important clause to ponder. There are impressive social and economical gains seen in this study. But these apply only to AT RISK POPULATIONS, since that is what was studied. It was also flawed from the standpoint of limited participation. Subsequent studies I have seen have been even more inferior in their scientific approach. As a scientist, I conclude that educators simply are not of a mind to implement well controlled studies OR the data don't exist. There have been sufficient opportunities to do such studies. I just think the data would not bear out the need for universal 4K. What should be done, as I preached loudly and often in Evansville, is to utilize the money to find and provide preschool for those students whose parents can't or won't provide for them. So what happened? Last year they discontinued our Head Start classrooms, despite our growing poverty demographic. The ways of the government are unfathomable.

If they want a 4K program, it should be funded by the school budget, and not cost $125/week. It is not a glorified daycare, and teachers need department of education credentials; something a daycare does not require. I am glad where I am from had 4K programs. It helped my brother and I tremendously, and our own children are better for us having it. They are also accelerated students with excellent reading, math, and analytical skills; transferable to any task. Every parent with young children should be running to their nearest 4K program if they want their children to be able to compete globally(and locally). Our country is not even in the top 5 rank (educationally speaking).

The reason people are calling 4K day care is because a lot of day cares are already providing educational experiences for 4 year olds!! Milton will have 4K, you can plan on it. Parents want FREE but don't be fooled it isn't free. My taxes will go up.

I thought this was about Milton building a $4000.00 fence. I was wondering why they needed a new fence, then I figured they wanted to lock the gang members behind it.

Parents can pick up a book, and try counting with their child and their would be no need for 4K.

*** IF someone is concerned about their child in terms of development etc.. the school district tests every year 3 & 4 year olds. IF there is a need they are required by law to offer services.

*** IF you are just looking for socialization for your child HEADSTART is a excellent option and its free, and they work on the basics, counting and letters.

*** IF you just want daycare look in the phone book. Pay for it your self and not at tax payer expense.

If Milton is going to have 4-k they need to go about it the right direction. We relocated out of the Milton school district due to a job out of Janesville. The district we moved into(a different Wisconsin city) has 4-k and we were able to pick what site we wanted our child to attend. Then it said under the registration 4-k is not based on first come first serve. Which is really stupid. Of course our child got placed at a daycare site not the elementary school like we wanted. We wanted our child in a school setting for 4-k not a daycare. In Illinois some cities have 4 year old preschool at elementary schools only. That is fair to everyone. Making some families go to a daycare who don't want to is not right. Having the daycare sites is a cheap way to incorporate 4-k. Why even bother since some moms choose to stay at home and don't want their kids in a daycare setting. The whole 4-k thing sounds great but we ended up putting our child in a private school and paying for it because we wanted him in a school setting the same we had for our other child 4 years ago.

Stop calling it DAYCARE!

This is NOT free daycare this is an educational oppurtunity for four year olds. The P4J classes are only 21/2 to 3 hours per day and parents provide transportation to the different sites. If parents need wrap around "daycare" that can be provided at a cost to the parents. Again this is not free daycare!
We are touching chidren that may not have had this wonderful learning experience.Please don't judge this program until you know all the facts.

Since when did parents stop teaching their own children more. We have a library and they sell the work books at almost all the box stores. I am for 4k, but what I'm not for is the blame game. You have every right to teach your children anything they teach in school right at home too! You have the children, yes you should pay for them, if it means getting a work book or sending them to pre-school, whatever is in your means. Just take your own initiative.

mtdk454 - You just proved the point of not having it. Because you have 5 kids and you can't afford daycare so - AHHA! - 4K (Daycare) at the expense of the taxpayers. Nice. You chose to have that many children and you should be prepared for the expenses that come along.

after all is said and done, on here. It won't matter the Milton school district is going to find they can't afford it.

Education is always beneficial. 4 year olds are much more capable than some people expect out of them but AGAIN 4 year old qaulity educational programs ARE ALREADY AVAILABLE IN OUR COMMUNITY. It isn't free but 4K costs us all too.

woody: Thank you for being honest with what your problem is with this idea and for not trying to cloud the issue with other points that can be disproven.

Yeah, it is about the money. It's about taking other peoples money so you can have a bunch of kids and have free day care. Why don't the babymakers pay for day care them selves? BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT THE MONEY!!!! They don't want to pay for it them selves so they try to put a guilt trip on the rest of us.

sar1954- A M E N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a site director for a P4J classroom in a Janesville daycare/preschool I can tell you first hand that P4J is not glorified babysitting.We are here to educate young children with cognitive,
self help and social skills. Our P4J teachers must be DPI licensed through the state. We are very dedicated to these young children and only want the best for them. I encourage all of you with concerns to visit a P4J site and see for yourself that early education does make a difference.

OMG! It always come down to the money! Stop and take a look at what you can offer your child with preschool or 4K. For $100 a month (cost of a preschool in Milton for 3 days a week) you are saying it's not worth advancing your child's education! If you are unable to afford this cost then there is assistance out there for you to get. With the Milton District offering the 4K program it would be FREE to parents who can't afford to advance their child's education at this age. If you would have read the whole article Bernie said they would take it our of reserves and NOT raise taxes! I don't believe we can put a dollar amount on any child's education!

Another ploy by the already over paid baby sitters to get more than they deserve.

You go mespl! I agree with you on all points!

Hear this article tells long term benefits and has links to the two major studies that were used to get the list I am quoting below.
“In the long-term, studies show that children who attend high-quality pre-k are: more likely to graduate from high school; more likely to be employed; more likely to earn a higher income; less likely to need public assistance; more likely to lead healthy lives; and less likely to become involved in crime.”
http://www.preschoolcalifornia.org/makin...
Don’t tell me it hasn’t been studied.

melsp Either can you. There in no proof that in the long run 4k in a advantage. Period. There are no studies that support or dispute that claim. To much money to spend on glorified daycare, at taxpayer expense.

All that I am saying is that if parents have a choice between a school that offers pre k and one that does not they will choose the one that offers pre k. Parents want the best advantages for their children as possible. They also want schools that want the best advantages for their children. Studies show that it provides an advantage in the short term. And every parent wants every possible advantage for their children. So if Milton school district wants to improve than a pre k program should be in that plan somewhere because parents who have choices will choose schools with that program. I don’t think that anyone can argue that. Will children succeed without it yes I am not saying that they won’t. Do they have budget issues yes every aspect of government anything has budget issues. I am just saying that better schools are offering it, more schools are offering it, and unless Milton wants to be left behind and have people choose other schools first then they should plan on having it at some point in time.

So you are saying that you cannot provide any supporting evidence to back your statements? Right?

The other issue,, how will they pay for it??

As things stand now, they can't.

Sorry mespl, Where are the long term studies. There are NONE> .. NONE... AFTER all this taxpayer money is spent, there is no proof it will work to better the students. NOT one study talks about long term. Example.. A 4K student is going to do better, have a better GPA, than a H.S. student who did not.. Where are those studies.. There are not any.

All that tax money,, and no proof that in the long run it makes a difference.

I'm with a number of people here. No 4-yr. kindergarten (which is really daycare) until we make other cuts. If Milton does something to stop these storm drain taxes and if they scale back their building plans, maybe we could afford it. You just know, however, that they're going to introduce this, and then they're going to need to build a new facility for it. The beat goes on -- that is, our taxes keep going up, and Milton always finds a way to justify it, usually by citing outside forces that just require that they do this or that.

The teachers union wants 4k to increase union membership or to create jobs to protect the teachers that might be cut. Low senority teachers want 4k to get newbies under them. Politicians want 4k to "make jobs" and "save jobs". Baby makers like mtdk454, want 4k so the burden of having kids is put on the tax payers. Tax payers don't want 4k because we are tired of more taxes and more fees. Businesses don't want 4k because they are already being taxed out of wisconsin.

I have linked studies that show that it helps, sorry if you don’t like it.

Show me something that proves that it doesn’t help. Because you are basically saying that additional education provides no additional advantages in the long term.

I am glad that you have more than just your word to support that viewpoint. Thank you.

NO its not just money mespl, and I have said it before, there is no proof that in the long run it does anymore good, than just regular kindergarten. None.

Fact is, there are preschool programs already in place that are providing very successful educational programs for 4 year olds. But right, it's not FREE. And really, it's 3 hrs. You still need to transport your child & then arrange for child care in addition before/after the program. Yes I think 4K is beneficial but it's already available. If you can't afford it, check out child care assistance & find a quality program.

Do I really need to keep going? You people are against it strictly based on a money aspect and are using other reasons (invalid reasons) to try and support your viewpoint.

"In a recent pre-K study marked improvements have been shown in reading, writing, and spelling skills; Early Head Start students show improved child growth as well, including more family support for children’s learning."
Sources are given in the article.
http://www.educationatlas.com/head-start...

"Seventy-five percent of the school districts in the state have a four-year-old kindergarten programs, also called 4K"
http://elemedweb.madison.k12.wi.us/4k

Simple google search got me the government report summery linked below. This is a part of quoted text: “While it is difficult under Wisconsin's current assessment system to draw meaningful large-scale conclusions about the impact of 4K programming on children’s development, data from the national SWEEP study as well as data collected by individual districts seem to indicate that four-year-old Kindergarten is benefiting the development of participants.” That took me 1 minute to find. Try searching before you say that there is no research done.
http://dpi.wi.gov/fscp/pdf/ec-impact-dev...

While I agree that there is some "real education" taking place in 4k classrooms, I think the "glorified daycare" comments are not too far from the mark. Parents don't want this because of increased opportunities. Kids can get much more from at home, involved parents. No - what they want is a place to put their kids that doesn't cost them as much.

But they had better think again. Milton is already facing extreme overcrowding at the intermediate and middle school levels, and full buildings at the K-3 level. The referendum has been put on hold in light of the economic situation, but adding 4k would certainly push things over the edge when it comes to space. So this "free" child care will come at a hefty price for both buildings and staff.

Show us the study that shows 4k kids achieve more and do better because they had 4k compared to those who did not have it. You can not because there are none.

Sorry Pat that I didn’t answer a question that I had no intent on answering. However since you asked it was recently raised the maximum that it could be because of how the state works. If it was not raised the max this year than how much it could be raised next year would go down. I think what I paid in school tax last year to Milton was about 1200. Dose that answer the question sufficiently for you? Also I am debating moving in the next few years and I am looking at school ratings for when I do that, so that is a factor when people move. I want my children to have the best possible education, children are out future and nationally we are falling behind in education with them which will create even more problems in the future for our society. Here is my question do you think that children are the future and that educating them is a good thing?

Here we go again with the 4K programs being glorified daycares... for all of you that think that- have you EVER visited a 4K class??? Maybe you should, you will see that there is a lot to offer these kids- and it is not anything like a daycare... and my child along with several relatives and friends children have benefited immensely from the program. It is not a choice for everyone, but that is the point... it is a choice. Come visit a classromm and you will be amazed... and informed.

I am all for it! Being a mom of a preschooler who could def. bennefit from 4k cannot attend because we are milton residence. Kids are expected to know so much more now in kindergarten than when we were kids. I cannot afford to spend the 125.00 a week, I have 5 kids!

mspl I don't think you answered the question, where is Milton's school tax rate now? OR don't you know? It seems like Milton is already facing some big tax hikes without the school adding to it.

Why don't you just pick up the babies from the hospital? 4K is not necessary. We never had it, my kids never had it. There is no study that shows they are better off , than kids who never had 4k. My kids are lawyers and never had 4k. Imagine that.

I am not saying that people are going to move from Milton to another district for pre k however if they work in Janesville they might start their kid in pre k in a Janesville school and then their kid makes friends there and they just keep them in the Janesville school. That takes federal money that could be going to Milton and diverts it to Janesville. I am sorry but if you are saying that a 4 year old cannot be taught anything in a pre k program you are sadly mistaken it is more than daycare. All good school districts have a pre k program because it helps kids get a head start with their education. And with the no child left behind laws school districts are more often going to see that head start as a good investment to help them later on in the child’s education. So do we want Milton to be a second rate school district or do we want it to improve and do better than it has been, because people who are moving to an area look at school districts and how they are rated to help them decide which school district they want their kids in. They are not moving for a school but they might choose one house over another because of the school district.

Sorry people are not going to move back for 4K. The jobs it would create would be minimal.Then look at the size of the school and space, next they will be crying about needing a new school due to space. Milton's school tax is where? Get ready Milton tax payers for it to go through the roof!!

Where I am from, 4K is called junior kindergarten, and 5K is called senior kindergarten. Both ran for 3 hours/day, junior was in the morning, and senior was in the afternoon, and both went for 1 year each. We didn't just sit around eating snacks and having playtime; it was structured towards many different activities. We had language, math, social studies, art, gym, and music. My brother and I could read before entering first grade, and this gave us an advatage over other students when we moved to an area without 4K; we were placed into accelerated coursework right away. I don't really see a downside to giving kids an advantage, academically.

You are right Woody. No jobs, people move, leaving those who stay shouldering the school costs. 3 Hrs. of daycare..What parent wouldn't want 3 hours of free babysitting, to get things done. Getting a break for only 3 hrs would be awesome, especially if it's free.

A bigger reason for people to move from the area is to find work. If there were jobs here, people would flock here. Adding 4k will mean more people in the school system. That in turn means more taxes from the people.

why should tax payers have to pay for someone else's daycare . NO WAY>..

"glorified daycare" for 3 hours a day, come on thinking that is true is a joke.

4K is a joke, it is just glorified daycare.

People don't move to get their child into kindergarten for 3 hours a day.

How can they afford such a thing? More spending, and then crying later about budget cuts.