Very well said, lakennedy. Yet I'm afraid even with the simplicity and conciseness of your statement, some will still not understand nor be willing to accept that living in a "free" society should inherently also apply to our most intimate, personal rights so we can all make our own decisions about our bodies in consultation with our own consciences, our own medical providers, and our own life circumstances.

evansville your words give you away in that you said you hadn't seen an obituary in the paper. That says to me that you think if it is not published or something that child doesn't count. The reason no one is getting arrested for aborting is because we live in a world where people do not value life. I say it is murder because the bible says killing is murder. God considers a concieved child a life. When you willingly kill that life it is murder. The reason it is legal is because we also live in a fallen depraved world. Also people are selfish and want no consequences for their actions! If you don't want to get pregnant, keep your pants on!!when you take them off,IMO, you have made the choice!!

Billnewbie:
For the record, I am not an abortion advocate. I am an advocate of pregnant women having a choice. I do not go around advocating that anyone should have an abortion. I advocate the right for a woman to be able to choose to have an abortion. The two are quite different.
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How many of you anti-pro-choice people have adopted unwanted babies?!

whoanellie:Take your foot out your OWN mouth, and stop putting words in MINE. If you had basic comprehension reading skills, you would see that I did NOT say anything of what you said- I said that society does not treat miscarriages as lost children. I never said anything about them not counting, that was YOUR statement. I think it says more about your state of grieving than anything.
Also, you are making vast assumptions.

Is that the new standard now for legitimate dissent, that one must be willing to accept the consequences of irresponsibility for women who don't want to raise their kids or shut up and let the killing commence? Not likely!

To all of those who don't believe in abortion: how many of you have adopted children, not babies, children that are 5+ years old and have behavioral problems because they grew up in a family that didn't want them and were abusive to them?

It's true, murder by definition is a matter of opinion. Most murderers have no problem rationalizing their actions. Few murderers have so thoroughly squelched their consciences to the extent that they freely admit to themselves that they are murderers. So, since we recognise that murderers have a personal interest in downplaying the severity of their actions and we expect them to, we as a society don't put much credence in their self-aggrandizing opinions just as we should put little credence in the opinions of abortion advocates whether abortion is murder.

whoanellie:
You constantly refer to abortion as murder. I understand that YOU think that it is. YOU think life begins at conception, I do not. If abortion is MURDER than why, exactly, is it legal? The thousands of women who have had abortions aren't being charged with murder, are they? Here's a thought. Since you obviously are against them, hows about you DON"T have one? The choice is there for women. If they choose to have an abortion, they will have to deal with the consequences, not you. Leave it at that. Regardless of how self important you may feel right now, the fact remains that far better arguers than you and I have had it out over this topic. The result is that a woman can choose. Nothing we say on Gazettextra.com is going to change that.
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Choices of who should die for the benefit of another should not be left to the one who benefits alone. Proartist could strongly agree with that if the person's life in question were a woman and the beneficiary were her husband.

RichE95: You doth protest too much, Rich. I do respect your opinion. But it is just that...an opinion, just as mine and equally as valid. However, while I respect your right to act appropriately as you see fit in your own personal life based upon your own life circumstances, your own health care providers, and your own conscience, you would legislate against those who believe we, too, are entitled to make our own legitimate and intimate choices based upon our own best judgement, our own information, and our own health professionals. I remember when some options, including contraception, were restricted and illegal. Reproductive choices belong with the individual and not within the venue of politicians or punitive legislation.

Dear Proartist: You have made abortion a sacred sacrament. Those who speak out against it are just as valid as those who show pictures of children when they protest against war. When one protests what they don't like they had best be careful when they support actions which could be similar. Those who speak against the appointments of pro abortion individuals are as deserving of respect as those who parade up and down in front of Paul Ryan's office.

As a woman who has had 3 miscarriages I am offended evansvile, by your statement that just because you have a micarriage they don't count! You obviously have never had one or you wouldn't be so calloused in your writing! If people would acknowledge that life begins at conception and treat it as such, people like you could not make those shallow statements. The one thing that touched me most when I was in the midst of depression over my baby dying was a very gentle woman who sent me a card saying "I'm sorry your baby died" She acknowledged that it was a valid life and I appreciated that. I would hope you wouldn't make those remarks in front of a woman going through one. Take your foot out of your mouth and insert the other before you say anything again!

RichE95: Please explain...how is my position - or anyone elses - who promotes the ability of ALL make their own most intimate and personal of choices in any way "elitism and snobbery?" I should think the exact opposite is true for those who oppose legal medical options for women are promoting only their own personal philosophies upon the entire culture restricting self-determination of half the population. In any case, bringing personal animosity into the discussion serves no purpose other than to alienate others from participating. Shall we get back to the topic?

The issue here isn't one of legality since we all know that abortion is legal. The issue is one of morality and how convenient should we make it to obtain an abortion. The fact is that since over 95% of all abortions are done as a matter of convenience, they are already too easy to obtain. Some pro abortion advocates promote abortion at anytime, any place and for any reason. They rely on sympathy for impregnated rape victims and pregnancy endangered women as justification of their absolute support for abortion, ignoring statistical evidence of the rarity of those circumstances while claiming all anti-abortion advocates would force such women to delivery. This abortion clinic being established by the state for the purpose of performing late term abortions is a medically unnecessary act done not for women’s health, since any hospital across the state will allow a late term abortion performed in its facilities to save the mother’s life, but for “in your face” political reasons. That is why these nominees are opposed and why our Hospital board should never have nominated them in the first place.

proartist - I fully respect your right to your beliefs. It is to bad you always feel it neccessary to scorn those in our community when their views happen to be different from yours. You exhibit the highest degree of elitism and snobbery towards others.

RichE95: Exactly the point (re:"Your views and others on both sides . . . dominates these discussions.") That is why CHOICE is so important. I have made my choice, I hope you and other will also keep it safe, legal and accessible!

Whoanellie-
life BEGINS at conception, but yet we don't have funerals for 9 week miscarriages... at least, it's been a long time since I've seen an obituary for one in the paper. Why?
Life may be a miracle, but a vastly common one, and one we as a society treat like crap. Look at how all the "precious miracles" here at the Gazette talk to each other on these forums.

Poim2009- I have a real issue with your stance. Who are you to judge the stress a woman is under? So you feel you that women who conceive AGAINST their will carry a human that is OK to kill, but a clueless college student carries a child that deserves life and protection? it is not the fetuses fault it was concieved, yet you judge it less worthy of life. Is it the woman you want to punish? How do you know a woman is not OK with carrying a relatives baby? Maybe SHE wants it, while the mother who just got left with 5 kids and found out she is pregnant with her husband's 6th child is undergoing much MORE mental anguish than the incest victim. Who are you to judge?

Also... you are very misinformed about the type of abortion they would perform at the proposed clinic at 1 S. Park. A Partial birth abortion is done in a matter of twenty minutes, in a HOSPITAL. It already occurs at Meriter. Hear that- it's already being DONE at Meriter.
The PROPOSED abortion clinic would ONLY perform D&E's, (Dilation and Evacuation) a procedure that is done between 16 and 22 weeks and takes THREE DAYS of various medical preps.
The main difference between partial birth abortion and D&E is that partial birth abortions are done on women that are literally within hours of death due to Eclampsia or HELLP syndrome. D&E's are performed primarily as elective procedures.
Cesearans (hysterotomy) are also performed on women gravely ill as a result of the pregnancy.
I personally know of a woman who, at 22 weeks, underwent a partial birth abortion on her two boys (already named) because she was within an hour of dying. They literally watched her go into brain death. She tried for those boys for 5 years. She mourns every day for those children. She is literally bedridden every year when the due date and abortion date comes around.

I don't care if you call it "choice" or if it is done in a sterile operating room, or in some back alley, IT IS MURDER!!!!You can try to defend it, explain it and whine about your right to choose but in the end it is still the same, a baby lost it's life at the hands of another! That is murder. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand and don't admit life begins at conception, but it still does. You all know it and in your consciences you know it. You will answer for it someday and I will pray that you will change your mind. However the issue in the article was the appointment of men who agree with late term abortion(Murder). And because of a lot of brave women and men we have the right to protest that decision. Just as you think you have the right to vote the other way. God bless you and have a nice day!!!

Also, consider that the madison and Rockford's abortion clinics business has gone up 15% since unemployment took a jump. Also consider that 50% of women having abortion are mothers of children at home.

A good story to read is "Abortion after Motherhood" by Ariel Gore,

87- "human" is not a question of taxonomy, it is a term to denote a citizen with protected rights.
You are also making assumed stances- you tbelieve i support abortion on fetuses. I don;t see any points where i support this-what I DO NOT support is making a woman liable for the death of her unborn fetus.

And to the woman that suffered 10 miscarriages- yes, some women WERE interrogated when a pregnancy ended. A good book to read how pregnant unmarried college students were treated is "Out of Wedlock" by Linda Lee. imagine suffering a miscarriage and being asked 'Did you use a coathanger? Did you take pills? We KNOW you did something... you are young and single."

It did happen. That is why I am against criminalizing abortion. But in the same breath, I think this country treats women and children like crap. Do you tihnk there is a connection? It's amusing the amount of people that are pro-life and anti lazy welfare queens in the same breath.

After posting my last comment I then saw the remarks by poim2009. They are eloquent and I completely agree. Thank You!

Welcome back proartist. How was the Obama innaugural? Did you get to act high and mighty about the patriots who protect us and at the same time score some points for partial birth abortion? Your views and others on both sides highlight the selective morality that dominates these discussions.

I can honestly say I am pro life and pro choice. You may ask how can I be both but I will explain it to you. I believe that abortion is wrong in all but three instances. If the woman is raped and gets pregnant she should have the choice to end her pregnancy. If a child is molested by a male family member or male friend of the family and gets pregnant she should have the right to choose weather or not to carry the child. If a woman gets pregnant and is told that if she carry's through with the pregnancy her life will be endangered then it is her and her partners choice on weather or not to terminate the pregnancy. This is my opinion. I also believe that if abortion is used as a birth control method it is wrong. If you have done research into what the UW is proposing then you will know we are not talking about terminating pregnancies in the first trimester, we are talking about partial birth abortions. This to me is wrong. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and my husband has defended this country for many years to give you the right to do so. But please do some research and after you do if you still feel the same way then more power to you. But at least then you will be able to comment with knowledge backing you up.

Evansvillehousewife: Absolutely right but not only insurance... why isn't the IRS concerned about giving a dependency deduction for all those yet-to-be-born! Those who don't think living-breathing person legal issues of taxes, insurance, and much more wouldn't apply if the "products of conception" are given legal personhood status, are simply incredibly naive. How about a Social Security number? It, once again, proves they could care less about the myriad of individual life situations (and privacy, laduce!) of adult women who struggle each and every day with a multitude of personal decisions. Required reading (or watching): Margaret Atwood's "Handmaids Tale".

evansvillehousewife, you said "If a fetus is a human, why is he/she not entitled to life insurance???" ... Are you saying that you think a fetus is not human? Is it alien then? or maybe a form of sub-human? I know a fetus is a human because I was one and am one, I think so were you. And to answer your question, insurance companies can not give life insurance to fetus' because of people like you who would kill them. An unborn child is the most innocent of all humans and you want to put them to death if it is not convenient to have them around.

evansvillehousewife- As someone that suffered several (10) miscarriages and a stillbirth before being blessed with my incredible children, I have to say that your way of thinking is offensive and ignorant. And, yes, we have never had anyone questioning pregnant women about HOW the pregnancy ended. That would, of course, require a knowledge when someone conceived. Any ideas about privacy laws? Sound a bit like pre-war Germany, here? We don't have to "register" our children, our pregnancies, or our bodies. I suffered the loss of these babies that we so badly wanted, yet, I work in a profession where I deal with unwanted children everyday. In an ideal world, this wouldn't happen, but, in the real world, kids that are not wanted or loved become a huge burden on society, as, they have not learned compassion or love from their own parents. We have a right to decide when and where we become parents. It is not going to be overturned- whine all you would like to. It is a matter of safety.

Or ...... what percentage of the population living today was "wanted" from the time the pregnancy was discovered until birth?
Should they all have been killed(aborted)?

Difficulty raising a child, so kill them?
Would hate to see the end-result of that thinking.

For the record, today is Thursday, abortion day at Planned Parenthood in Madison. How many of you were there begging to take the unwanted babies and raise them?

RIGHT. I am absolutely baffled by most people's inability o understand my point.
MY POINT" Whether a fetus dies NATURALLY or by HERBAL ABORTION or by a KNITTING NEEDLE or a CATHETER with soapy water... since the mother was thr last one in custody, why would she not be questioned?

Do you honestly think that miscarried women were not interrogated prior to Roe vs Wade?

And 100 points to those that answer this question... If a fetus is a human, why is he/she not entitled to life insurance???

EvansvilleHousewife, you need to think things through a little further. You say that, since 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, thousands of women would be charged with murder. Does this mean that if someone dies of a heart disease, someone else must be charged with murder? After all, 100% of humans die, and in this country, far more than 20% of them die of heart disease.

Your argument doesn't hold water. Natural miscarriages have absolutely nothing to do with abortion. It is interesting, though, that the several moms I know who've had miscarriages can't stomach the idea of abortion. They know in their hearts that the child who died within them was a person, a precious child, not just a clump of cells.

Save the whales, rain forest, spotted owl, and the Earth as a whole. Kill the fetus.

jazzymom, I think the life of a person is more important than your "emotional scars", have you ever seen the physical scars caused by abortion to a little child?

I meant adoption...sorry

Exactly. I have the right to choose if I want to have a child or not. That is my right. People are never going to agree on what is right or what is wrong. The point I am trying to prove is that it is my right. If I am raped I will not have that baby. Even to give it up for abortion. The emotional scars would be too deep. If I am not in a place to raise a child whether it be because I am in high school or college, I have the right to choose. No one can tell me what to do with my body. If I may die if I have carry the baby to term whose life do you choose. Do you choose to abort the fetus or do you choose to save your own life or would you rather see both die?

MiltonRedman: You make a good point. It shouldn't be murder or even homicide if a fetus is terminated by violence. These laws were passed by anti-abortion people, who wanted to make a situation where people like you would offer this argument.

Obviously, Dr Talk and 87 if you had a rational view of this issue you would have no need to string together outrageous and illogical sets of circumstances to justify your stance on abortion. Both Proartist and evansvillehousewife draw on valid and defensible explanations to state the motivation behind the Roe vs Wade decision. A persons stance on abortion should not be the only criteria used to either accept or reject those chosen to serve on any Wisconsin State Board. Abortion should remain a legal, not political, issue.

I have yet to hear of a rape victim who became pregnant because of her attack describe the abortion she subsequently chose as "convenient."

Exactly, 2dognight. Although it is ridiculous to assume that abortions are chosen solely because of convenience.

Jazzymom
What? You have the the right to choose WHICH of your children lives or dies? Children of convenience.

SarahB1: If the goal were not "control the sexuality, reproductive capabilities, and bodies of women" then why would the very same groups trying to outlaw reproductive choice for women also include the elimination of the forms of contraception they call "abortifacients"; restrict the ability of health care providers to give COMPLETE and factual information/referrals; massive efforts to close down care access via clinics who provide far more HEALTH care than just abortions; etc.? When is the last time you saw the same concentrated pressure to legislate restrictions of basic information and medical care access aimed at men? At the very depths of this issue is a fear of women as fully capable and independent beings who deserve equal respect and a right to self-determination.

Evansville mom . Because of Roe vs Wade I have the right to choose.

evansvillehousewife,
Miscarriages are pregnancies that end on their own. We're not talking about those, we're talking about abortion.

You know that if they make abortions illegal that there will still be abortions done, not in the cleanest conditions. Do you want to be responsible for the women who die from that?

Jazzymom,
i feel your point is irrelevant because there is no right to abortion in the Constitution. The right to privacy is a fuzzy area and more extends into legal rights to personal property and information.
I understand it is the part of the Constitution that Roe Vs Wade was passed, but remember is is a legal case that decided this Federal law, and not a Constitutional amendment.

Again, you are missing the hazards of making a fertilized egg equal to a citizen protected by law. A citizen protected by law will, when foul play is suspected, have an investigation into the death,

i shudder at the thought of women being subjected to interrogation under suspicion of murder when they have just had a horrible miscarriage. Over TWENTY PERCENT of implanted pregnancies miscarry at some point during the pregnancy.

If the fetus is considered a person, then that grieving woman becomes a murder suspect, and she is subject to suspicion of law.

On a last note, I'd like to see Rock Co law enforcement and CPS view child murder- RIP Israel Gordon- as such and not "neglect" which gives them a paltry three years in prison.

An abortion is a right that I have. If the government takes away that right what will stop them from taking away our freedom of speech or freedom of religion. Do you want to risk that?

ladulce, I am not appealing to the fed or the state and my comments don't hinge on if it is legal or illegal. I am actually talking about what is right and what is wrong. Everyone knows it is wrong to kill a 12 year old, my point is that it is also wrong to kill a child who has yet to meet his/her mom and dad. Also remember ladulce, there was once a day when you were in your mom's womb and your heart had yet to beat and your brain waves were not waving.. But I am sure when you hug your friends and relatives they are very happy you are alive and you had a great mom who decided you were worth the pain of child birth.

87- your argument is among the lamest I have EVER heard. There is OBVIOUSLY an enormous difference between an organism that has yet to have brain waves or a beating heart (in very early pregnancy) and a 12 year old child that is fully formed and functioning. There are many other arguments that you could support that would make sense. Research the subject and find one? And, really, whether you like it or not, abortion is legal, and, even if it were to be overturned nationally (which is NOT going to happen), Wisconsin is one of THE MOST Liberal states and we would keep it legal. You do know that if Roe V. Wade were overturned it would just give the issue back to each state to decide, right????

Roe vs Wade is not a law passed by both house of the legislature, which reflects the will of the people. Why do you think after all these years our law makers won't introduce and debate legislation to make abortion the ACTUAL law of the land?

No, Roe isn't based on property law, but on the right to privacy under the due process clause found in the 14th amendment...
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Sure, dr.talk, I could go all day offering arguments against the right to life argument, etc. Actually, I'm pretty sure we've been in these arguments before. The ending is always the same...I support a womans right to choose to have an abortion and you don't. That's fine. Maybe I'll be in hell for believing this, maybe not. One thing is for certain, though. Women DO have the right to choose to have an abortion in this country...no amount of arguing on the Gazettextra website is going to change that.

If it is the mothers (not fathers) decision to kill a child at the very young age of pre-birth then it should also be legal for the mother to kill her child anytime before the age of 18 when the child becomes an adult. I don't like the double standard, a human child is a child from conception until adulthood. Please stop killing them!

proartist,
So are you saying that abortion should only be legal if the unborn baby consents to being aborted?

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable RIGHTS, that among these are LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
-- Declaration of Independence (emphasis is mine)

Roe v. Wade is not a decision based in property law. Next ....

lakennedy,
You brought up the only situation where abortion has never been against the law - where the mother's life is in danger. Those cases are extremely rare - about 1% of abortion cases. Try using a different situation to make your case.
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As far as it being legal, do you agree with the Supreme Court in the Dred Scott case where slaves were considered to be property? Do you also think that a baby is not human and nothing more than property?

MiltonRedman: Exactly! You got it! If a pregnant woman loses her yet-to-be-born-baby by the violent actions of another (illegal assault) then the perpetrator is charged with an illegal action. If a woman opts for her LEGAL right to have an abortion, there is no conviction. Just as with torture (i.e. waterboarding): If an enlistee CONSENTS to having their body assaulted in training - knowing they will survive - by an action otherwise known as torture, then such action is legal. If someone is water-boarded against their consent in a captive situation with full knowledge they might very well die, it is terrorism and illegal torture. The world may be more complex with areas of grey instead of always precise, clear black and white but THAT is what keeps the U.S. a free nation with not only individual physical autonomy but also philosophical integrity.

Funny how if a baby in the womb is killed the person who killed it can be convicted of murder if the mother wanted the child. If the mother doesn't want the child, it's called abortion.

Definition of "murder" ... "the UNLAWFUL premeditated killing...". We live in a nation of laws where abortion is LEGAL even if access to safe and compassionate care is not. When people start using the correct terminology (also understanding the correct definition and implementation of "choice"), then they will garner respect. Until then, zealots and fanatics who desire to control the sexuality, reproductive capabilities, and bodies of women throughout the world by coercive, theocratic, and invasive intimidation of law, will be known as such.

So, is it murder if I'm in my third trimester and I develop a condition that forces me to choose between aborting the baby, or dying myself?
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Indeed it is...if a doctor lets me die and saves the baby instead...

Excellent point...it's legal.

If this were the other way around the ANTI-LIFE advocates would be just as outraged. It is a travesty, murder at the hands of a Dr. and it's legal!!!! Murder is murder even if it's done by a Dr. in a respectable suit in a hospital!!!!

Anti-abortion... Should the other side be called anti-life.