Why dont we have a website marking where every violent person lives instead of the OWI one? I'd much rather know where a guy that beats his wife lives versus a guy who might drink a beer on his porch. That tells you how messed up our priorities are.

It's true that each individual should develop the ability to choose wisely. But until that time comes for each victim, it enables the abuser for the critic to put equal fault on the victim.

I made a comment on October 28 about restraining orders, and it seems the blogs were more about perpetrators and victims and why people stay in abusive situations. I think those bloggers are missing the point.

Restraining orders are usually the result of the victim trying to get out of an abusive situation, not staying in one. The problems usually arise because the perpetrator does not want to give up the power over the person trying to get out, which all too often leads to violence.

The main problem, as I said before, is the fact that the legislature, when the law was enacted, did not put strong enough teeth into the part about enforcing them. Thirty years of working in the court system gave me plenty of time to observe the interplay between perptrator and victim and the inability of law enforcement being able to effectively enforce the restraining orders.

It would appear, in the Brookfield situation, for instance, that the perpetrator purchased the gun after the restraining order forbidding possession of guns was in effect.

If someone was sincerely interested in changing this situation, then they need to work with the legislature to toughen the law. Spinning wheels about who stays in or doesn't stay in an abusive relationship does nothing to solve this problem. The problem is the law itself. It is a weak law with weak remedies.

"I say "mental problem" I am refering to your more polite term "psychological problem""
I have to say I agree to a point on this. I just think he is putting it wrong.
IF you are abused as a child this will create some problems metally as to how you develope. If then you picked a sig other who also beats you verbally or physically you may think this is just normal and never escape this cycle. You think you are worthy of a good person to be with. Some wont develope emotionally at all and seem to be just (ie) at 15 years old and think they are to be cared for their whole lived and if they were abused and the sig other abuses them they will never try to escape. I had an abusive and deciving boyfriend once. He finally did hit me. IT took awhile to figure out how to "escape" but when he hit me I called the cops and it was all over!! They took him away- was on probation for domes abuse to a past girlfriend. Wish WCCAP was around them!!! Little Lying puke! I put up with this and did so for tooo long. Some people just don't want to be alone or feel they failed.
I agree a restaining order is junk. If they are going to come after you this piece of paper is junk!

wislady - I agree, survivors are not weak, but they once were if they stayed and endured the torture. Maybe it took that to strengthen yourself mentally? And I also agree that survivors are much stronger and aware after the fact. But why does one have to go through it all in order to realize it? I would think that mental training and self discipline training would be much more important learning in school than stupid Shakespear and Hamlet and 10+ years of how the pilgrims came to America. All these articles run in a circle... it goes back to the failure of an education system we have. We dont prepare people for life...which wouldnt be that hard at all.

Sigma
Perhaps I misunderstood, but I did not interpret what Beth said, as the victim having a "psychological problem".
I understood it to mean a form of abuse that the victim can be subjected to. From personal experience, I can state that an abuser can be very good at mentally "beating", in addition to physical beating. In other words, an abuser is a bully.
Victims who are "survivors" of domestic violence, are NOT psychologically weak. In fact, it is their strength that makes them a survivor.

Why would you not take Beth up on her offer, perhaps you could come to understand better.

To decline because you "would not know what to expect walking into something like that".......is exactly the situation victims find themselves facing every hour of every day.

A restrainnig order is basically a financial agreement with the courts. It is not a proactive approach. Basically if you break the restraining order you are obligated to be fined and possibly jailed. Seeing the spending cuts and how they dont want to keep people in jail because it is expensive, its just a false sense of security and a sure money maker for the courts. if someone wants to harm you, no peice of paper will protect you.

What good does a restraining order do if police will not do anything if the person violates the restraining order that was put against him??? I know someone who is going through something very upsetting and when the person who the restraining order is against goes onto her property but does not exit the vehicle the police will not do anything.. she is in fear of her safety and safety of her children but law enforcement from two cities will not do anything.. when is she supposed to feel safe even in her own home??

"Songs that made the hit parade......"

Beth, I appologize if I sound insulting. Im blunt and to the point and what some call brutally honest. I know domestic violence (all violence) is horrible and when I say "mental problem" I am refering to your more polite term "psychological problem". My theory is if you buffer it all down and sugar coat it people will not realize it is a problem. While clearly the abusive person is "A" problem, the non-abusive person involved is contributing to the problem by not being psychologically strong and aware....whether they know it or not, a lot of times they dont realize it. Ive been through all this many times. A good friend was in a long relationship, cops, arrests, eluding, on the run, I think a few things were thrown at each other but no blood shed... This lasted a few years... I told him then he needed his head examined for staying there and he called her a psycho for how crazy and enraged she got. I told him he was just as nuts in the head for being there. Now....a few years later he agrees with me 100%. Its just then he couldnt see the light and didnt want it to be like that so he chose to ignore the truth..denial and bargaining...and yes I say he had mental issues. :) Not insulting...fact stating. Sometimes people need to be told they have a problem the hard way before they realize it.
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I respectfully decline your invite to the YWCA. Im a busy person and I would not know what to expect walking into something like that... For what reason would you want me to tour it?

"Spread the awareness and be safe."

Evident, from the comments we have seen, that much more needs to be done.

Thanks for article, Beth.

Sigma40:

While many parts of abuse are psychological, your comments about "mental problems" can be construed as insults. Again, I'm not flagging your comments because I feel this is an important conversation.

My other question was rhetorical. You don't need to know if the doors were locked, if the homeowner was male or female, or if the imaginary suspect was invited into the home to make repairs.

No one deserves to be abused, by strangers or loved ones.

When you advocate personal responsibility, that also applies to an abuser.

Again, I'll invite you on a tour of the YWCA. Email me to schedule it.

Beth

There is only one thing I can say after that comment Sigma:

"Boy the way Glen Miller played........"

Whos judging? If it isnt easy you need to get over the mental issue of denial and bargaining with yourself and save yourself. If its not a mental issue thats keeping you attached to this person what is it? It certainly isnt rope and handcuffs... if you were bound and tied up in the closet I would completely agree with you that it would be difficult to walk away.

Ok the problem is is unless you've been there you have no clue what it's like so you have no right to put someone down or say why don't they just leave. It's always easy to say that to someone who's in this kind of situation, trust me I know. I have said that to people before to, till it actually happens to me. The abuser wasn't an abuser when the relationship started or at least not to their present partner. They start out just like any other relationship. Then it eventually changes. Either gradually or just all or a sudden. Even if someone who has had a relationship with them previous to you & tells you how they are, you don't believe it until all of a sudden it's happening. By the time it happens to you they have you believing how sorry they are & how much they supposedly love you. That no one can love you like they do & you won't ever find some better than them. They will abuse you then do everything & anything to apologize so you don't leave or call the authorities on them. It's not that easy to just get up & walk away when you have been brain washed to believe everything they tell you. So the gist of the story is "Don't judge someone when you haven't walked in their shoes." Instead lend a shoulder or a hand. Be a friend & help the victim & if possible the abuser. Everyone involved needs help, just in different ways. Hope this helps as many people as possible.

OK, it's the Archie Bunker thing, or it's a put-on.

Still you expect me to form a vision of said stranger. Are they selling something? There to fix something? Regardless one shouldn't let a stranger in.. But.. The odds of a complete stranger being violent compared to someone you are with and already know they are violent are way lower. I dont know the odds. But if you opened the door and just let some random stranger in your house and they shot you... Yes, the homeowner would be partially at fault....or should I say accountable.
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Flipside - If a person with a life threatening wound came staggering up to your door, You opened it, let them in, stabilized them and called the paramedics. Would the alone action of "opening the door" be partial reason for the positive outcome of this situation? Yes, you are accountable for the actions you take.
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How can opening a door for someone in one case be good accountability on a persons part when they saved a life, people would be like "If Jim Bob hadn't opened that door Billy Ray would never have lived"..
But if Someone opened the door to a complete stranger and got shot... the outcome is entirely the strangers fault. ??????????
Point is....we excuse blame and pass it on to others when the outcome is tragic or isnt in our favor. = Failure of personal accountability.

Sigma..., lets have the example include that the stranger gives no warning to the victim. Now:

"Sigma40, on a previous post you said you wished domestic violence was treated like any other violence. If a stranger shot someone in their home, I wonder if you'd be blaming the person who was injured or killed. Would it still be their fault for letting a stranger in their home?

Beth"

Correction:

Sigma..., in Beth's paragraph, whose home it is is stated in this sentence:

"Would it still be their fault for letting a stranger in their home?"

One of the purposes for having two or more sentences contained in one paragraph is that all the sentences are related to each other. And just for the sake of explanation, let's remove the possibility that the stranger was provoked in any way. Now:

"Sigma40, on a previous post you said you wished domestic violence was treated like any other violence. If a stranger shot someone in their home, I wonder if you'd be blaming the person who was injured or killed. Would it still be their fault for letting a stranger in their home?

Beth"

Sigma..., in Beth's paragraph, whose home it is is stated in this sentence:

"Would it still be their fault for letting a stranger in their home?"

One of the purposes for having two or more sentences contained in one paragraph is that all the sentences are related to each other. And just for the sake of explanation, let's remove the possibility that the stranger wasn't provoked in any way. Now:

"Sigma40, on a previous post you said you wished domestic violence was treated like any other violence. If a stranger shot someone in their home, I wonder if you'd be blaming the person who was injured or killed. Would it still be their fault for letting a stranger in their home?

Beth"

I'll go one step more to show you that its a mental problem. A problem that because the VICTIM has, results in further harm to the VICTIM. I'll answer the question Beth posted directly.
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"Why doesn't the victim just leave?"
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It is similar to the stages of grief, loss, death....etc. Im copy and pasting some of this, You dont need to be a psych major.
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-Denial - It is a defense mechanism that buffers the immediate shock. We block out the words and hide from the facts. This is a temporary response that carries us through the first wave of pain. (or beating)
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-Bargaining - Secretly, we may make a deal with God or our higher power in an attempt to postpone the inevitable. This is a weaker line of defense to protect us from the painful reality. We lie to ourselves and say to ourselves that it will not happen again.
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You could go into depression and how being depressed hinders peoples ability to think rationally even more so. People are not prepared to handle the emotional conflicts life offers. Whos to blame? Schools could do better.

gazettefan - I thought I did, kind of. But technically her question was rather lacking...Why would a stranger shoot someone in their home? The strangers home? Was the person invited? Break in? live there? "A person" is not enough to base anything on. My example below was a guess of what she was talking about.
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"In another article yes I did state that all violence is violence and domestic or not should be treated the same. But... In a domestic you have 2 people and while it is violence instead of one being a victim I think you have more like 2 perpetrators instead. Why do I think this way? If someone broke into your house and you consider yourself more defenseless, would you run or avoid harm? Likely Yes. In domestic you know the situation you are in, why not run and avoid harm?

tamrlu - On the contrary I am the complete opposite of that which you describe. One can not psycho-analyze one by the words they type. You are quick to judge me by what your snap judgement tells you... I feel very sorry for people like you that can only see the world from one point of view... inside a box.
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See..Im not being angered because someone opposes what I say. Im not disagreeing without a logical reason. I personally have never been in a domestic dispute or any kind of conflict at a heightened state of anxiety. I personally dont think anyone should ever raise their voice to anyone unless they are warning them of imminent danger...well unless the music is too loud and they cant hear you. See I respect everyones opinion regardless of how wrong I think it might be, and I love a good debate. Anyone that forms an opinion of me based on my beliefs would probably be in a domestic dispute of some kind in their life....thats the nature. I dont let emotion get in the way of logic. I understand....no one else can understand the view from a different perspective. That is sad and a problem most people have that leads to conflict, and that leads to violence, and if its your significant other you cant have a conversation with without getting enraged... ding ding ding.. You may be the next contestant on the Domestic violence show! It does take two people. And its like a reality show, addicting!!! People love drama.

Sigma..., can you directly respond to Beth's question?:

*************

"Sigma40, on a previous post you said you wished domestic violence was treated like any other violence. If a stranger shot someone in their home, I wonder if you'd be blaming the person who was injured or killed. Would it still be their fault for letting a stranger in their home?

Beth"

restraining orders don't really work the way they were intended to, and gun violence will happen as long as people have access to guns...anyone who wants a gun can get one without a permit or agency giving them permission, and restraining orders don't hold your attacker at bay when they're killing you...the order is only a step in legal accountability in case something goes wrong, so when you're dead, they'll know who to go looking for, IMO...

Sigma...There are 7 types of abuse. It would seem to me that you seem to be a perpetrator of a couple. With your attitudes, you are to me, an emotional, verbal (though written) and mentally abusive personality. Those forms of abuse are many times more permanently damaging to the women and children around you. Think hard about what you don't know before you try to pontificate on what you don't understand. JMO

Why do you people see it as im attacking and insulting people? Im not. In another article yes I did state that all violence is violence and domestic or not should be treated the same. But... In a domestic you have 2 people and while it is violence instead of one being a victim I think you have more like 2 perpetrators instead. Why do I think this way? If someone broke into your house and you consider yourself more defenseless, would you run or avoid harm? Likely Yes. In domestic you know the situation you are in, why not run and avoid harm?
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I think 9 out of 10 situations could be avoided, the woman in Edgerton I dont know the exact circumstances but obviously a rocky road.
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And how can you call my views as "neandrathalistic"? If anything the thought of staying with someone because your emotions wont let you make a logical decision is more of a primitive characteristic than what I propose... walking away and not looking back.
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Im trying to help here people...dont bash me (we're not dating)<---HA! bad joke sorry.

I can tell you that even if the person being abused desperately wants to leave sometimes leaving, unless you have somewhere to go that you KNOW they can't find you or get to you, is just asking for the violence to be escalated. And most likely they've been told if you leave I'll come after you and hurt you, or if I can't find you, I'll hurt someone in your family. And they will. Sigma40, it's not as simple as just getting out of there. Leaving is bound to trigger the abuser's out of control anger and abusiveness. That's why services like the Women's Shelter is so crucial.

I tend to waiver between Sigma40 being a troll and just trying to elicit responses from his foolish, ignorant and misinformed posts, or if he really is that out of touch with reality on subjects such as this.

After reading his comments on this subject I tend to believe the second option. The neandrathalistic views of this subject, and in turn, women in general, make me think of a younger, modern day Archie Bunker. His poor grammar, spelling and inappropriate and hurtful comments show a lack of education and common sense, and I can just see him making these comments in social setting like poor Archie Bunker as he just doesn't know any better.

Some readers may wonder why comments are being allowed on this post. I think the comments demonstrate why we need to keep talking about domestic violence, and why there is a Domestic Violence Awareness Month.

Thank you, wislady, for reminding us of the tragedy in Edgerton.

Sigma40, on a previous post you said you wished domestic violence was treated like any other violence. If a stranger shot someone in their home, I wonder if you'd be blaming the person who was injured or killed. Would it still be their fault for letting a stranger in their home?

Beth

" so called victim.... obviously lacking personal accountability. Feeling sorry for the "victim" is just giving them the false impression that they did nothing wrong when in reality they were half of the cause of the problem"
......

This comment is indicative of the need for education and more help for victims.

Thank you, Beth.

How cant you understand? If you keep calling the weaker person in a domestic violence situation a "victim" you will never fix anything. Any "victim" of domestic violence is a victim of their own circumstances. They as well should be charged with something. They can take action, counciling, therapy, or maybe leave? The failure to take any action is a failure of the so called victim.... obviously lacking personal accountability. Feeling sorry for the "victim" is just giving them the false impression that they did nothing wrong when in reality they were half of the cause of the problem....A domestic problem could not have happened if they were not there in the first place. There is a quote that is so fitting... "Treat me bad once its your fault, treat me bad twice its my fault".
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I think the bigger problem we have with this in America is its shedding light on the amount of people that are unaccountable.

Sigma

Your comment is demeaning and offensive to victims of domestic violence.

Wislady - Whats your point? How is what happened anyone elses fault but the two involved? Its tragic yes, but they BOTH obviously like to fight. They both did themselves in from what I see. It all goes back to "personal accountability"... Taking responsibility for YOUR own actions and that includes what and who you subject yourself to. Unless this woman was proven to have a mental disorder this case her family has is a wash because this woman, knowing the situation she was in, STAYED THERE. ????
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I have first hand experience with dealing with domestic violence. I've probably prevented a few murders in this town lol. I was a referee for a friend (haha, a few friends actually), I know both people involved love tearing into the other whether it be yelling or hitting.. So the only reason one would stay is if they liked the situation, and both people would be responsible for what ever outcome they created.

REMINDER:

http://gazettextra.com/news/2009/jul/16/...

I never even considered a restraining order effective by any means against violence. A restraining order is for harrassing and annoying people. Anyone getting a restraining order in hopes to end violence needs their head examined. If they were effective we could just file one against the middle east and call all our troops back. The war would end.
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Gazettefan - Im not biased...I just dont live in one box and believe in personal accountability. Being accountable for your self is knowing what you subject yourself to. Most these violent acts can be avoided, dont be there, and yes people can leave. Is it hard? Perhaps, thats a test of how smart and accountable one can be. Some people say smoking is hard to stop, drinking is hard to stop...the more mentally weak you are yes it is.

"A restraining order is utterly worthless if the plaintiff is in any danger at all. In the Brookfield tragedy, the restraining order was exactly a useful as holding a piece of paper up in front of a speeding bullet."

I agree, Stranger.

For the most part, restraining orders are obtained on orders of a divorce lawyer, in order to increase the amount of alimony the defendant pays.

Practically speaking, there are only two possibilities. Very few spouses pose any sort of threat to the person obtaining the order. So "most restraining orders reduce abuse" that never would have occurred.

However, there are a few, three to five percent, of defendants who do pose a threat to the plaintiff. A restraining order is utterly worthless if the plaintiff is in any danger at all. In the Brookfield tragedy, the restraining order was exactly a useful as holding a piece of paper up in front of a speeding bullet.

Friday, a young Indianapolis woman found that out the hard way. Her "restrained" ex broke into her apartment with evil on his mind. Fortunately, the young woman had taken GOOD advice and obtained a gun. And that ended the threat. As it almost always does.

Stranger

Being psychologically locked into a self-defeating way of thinking shows itself in more than one way. We should be open to all of it.

tamrlu

I agree with you. For people to comment on this subject (who have never experienced the violence) their ignorance and lack of compassion is obvious.

tamrlu....hope things are better for you now, I am a survivor also.

You both really need to take a step back. Being a survivor, I can tell you that you have NO idea of others' situations. To say that the victim has mental issues is definitely saying something of you. Every situation is different, and for you to "lump sum" all together is asinine.

I worked in the court system for 30 years. The idea behind restraining orders was good. However, the legislation did not carry with it the means to effectively enforce such orders. In Wisconsin, each judge, in each county, tends to have their own way of dealing with them, and in carrying out the provisions for removing guns from the perpetrator.

When a violation does occur, even when the victim is no longer living with the perpetrator, by the time the Sheriff's department deputies get there, it is often too late. Many perpetrators do abide by the terms of the order, however, there will always be some who do not, and law enforcement is often unable to respond in time to stop the tragedy.

I was tempted to suggest that you should be especially sensitive to people who are psychologically locked into a self-defeating way of thinking, but upon further review, there's just too much in the way for that valuable point to get through.

Im sorry, I just have no sympathy for someone who stays in a violent relationship and then something happens to them. Its no different than a drug addict. You know its bad, its just a matter of time before you get hurt.

There's an appropriate focus on domestic violence because it tends to be under-reported BY THE VICTIMS (not necessarily by the media) -in comparison to non-domestic violence.

And if media over-focus on violent crime causes crime, that effect is minor. Or else the rate of violent crime wouldn't have decreased by 38% in the last 20 years. The media over-focus on violent crime has been going on for much longer than 20 years and has gotten much worse over time -its greater effect is to aggravate a fear of the world in people who choose to dwell on horror over an actual study of reality.

We all make choices, if one chooses to put themselves in harms way for financial reasons there is no reason anyone should feel sorry for their own stupid choice...I think if a person is involved in a high risk relationship like this their insurance should cost more....health, dental, auto, home...all of it. Because if you live with a person and you've had previous violent encounters with them, odds are it will happen again and when your house gets tore up, your teeth get knocked in, bones broke... all this should cost you more. I bet if we get the insurance companies on people raising rates for violent people... that might help tame the problem.

Some people do not "leave" the situation because they feel financially trapped, as in they cannot support themselves on just their own income, so they do not know where to GO. So, they sit there in that situation while they attempt to take personal responsibility for their lives, and figure out what place they can afford, or what other jobs to take, etc. A lot can happen in that time.

Crime rate seems to fluctuate like the climate.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscr...
A lot of it is just the media over-intensifying it. We are now more conscious and aware of everything because of the internet. 25 years ago if something happened it might have been a hype for a day in the news. Today its plastered all over every website, forum everywhere and then people feed off it and form groups and all group together...next thing you have is websites created and people wearing colored bracelets. "Domestic violence awareness". <--- is about the most idiotic thing i ever heard of. Why be just aware? Why not stop it? Why not focus on the problem? THE PERSON PUTTING THEM SELF IN THE SITUATION. It takes two people... "Personal accountability" , or lack of, sums it up perfectly.

Violent crime in this country is down 38% since the early 1990s.

May I suggest that when employing an analogy to make a point, that the particulars of the analogy precisely represent that which is being analogized. Better yet, there are times when analogy is not the proper way to make a point.

If you get in a hot tub and turn the heat on high eventually the water will get to warm where it is not comfortable and starts to hurt. So even though the water was not hot when you got in, do you see any difficulty getting out once the water is too hot? Same with going outside in a blizzard, it may have been ok when you stepped out.. but if conditions got worse... you need to do something. Obviously they need to start teaching self discipline in schools....yes all this is relative. If someone loses control of themselves and hurts you, unless a drastic measure is taken... the process will repeat itself 99% of the time. Insanity can be defined by repeating the same process (staying in a relationship) over and over again and expecting different results. Thus my conclusion that the people that stay with abusive people have mental problems.

That sums up, in microcosm, how millions of Americans have committed self-terrorism by over-focusing on the over-reporting of negative human behavior.

It's important to realize that the only restraining orders that make the news are the ones that "fail" -- in other words, you never hear about the many restraining orders that worked and were respected by the parties. If you only hear about the failures, you might assume they never work at all.