Hushing a Day of Silence

The nerve and arrogance of some people to blatantly say that homosexual activities OFFEND them actually bewilders me. I hear or read such things and say W-W-WHAT?! I mean seriously, get off of it. And the omnipresent phrase that is sure to turn up in such discussions, "I'm a Christian.." Jesus Christ. You want a medal? Oh you're a Christian but you're NOT offended? Wow!! Nobody gives a flying fish of what your superstitious beliefs are, especially ones that teach you to be homophobic. It would seem to me that people would be reluctant to give out such information about themselves. They think the phrase "I'm a Christian" sets them above the people they are criticizing. If you would think for yourself and disregard all the Christian BS that you eat up maybe you could stop being such a prejudice pig.

Rocky - Don't worry about the anger thing, I've known about that awhile. Thank you for looking at this issue on both ends. I may not fully agree with everything you said, but I respect your opinion and your more open mind, which is more than I can say for some people commenting on this subject.

upnorthwi - No, it won't hurt you to live by a book letting it lead your life, but it won't hurt me not living by it either. If God is as great as people claim him to be, he would love me any way, not turn his back to me just because I didn't read or follow the Bible. So ya, I will take my chances, and if I end up going to Hell because God turned me away for something as simple and as stupid as that, I wouldn't want anything to do with him any way.

www - That was a very pathetic response. I typed something so I don't support it...isn't typing different from talking any way, automaticly shooting your statement down? And another thing, I'm not waiting to come back at someone like you, who is trying to slam me, with a rant on how much I hate God, or whatever it is you think I want to do. I've said all I wanted and needed to say, end of story. So you can your snotty and "I'm being a smartass with you" attitude somewhere else, because really, you just made yourself look stupid.

Really, Jackson? Think about your high school career. Were you ever encouraged to join extra curricular activities? Ever have to take an art class? Ever have to run the mile? Ever have to attend a choir concert? I definitley did AT SCHOOL, but not at MY JOB. I was, and hope to continue to hear that the current students are, exposed to a wide variety of issues and activities at school. These things are what helps people open their eyes and their minds to the world, some of which we all don't have to agree with, but never should condemn.

School should be like a job. I do not now if you work but you do not talk personnel at work. Or have a silent day at work. Worker pay for schools, and school should be ran like a job.

Why is this an issue? Simplistic ignorance is the only reason. A group of kids wanting to do anything to demonstrate AGAINST bullying is a good thing.

Books aren't the only form of education I want for my children. I want them to have a well-rounded education that makes them think BEYOND THE BOOKS!

People blindly believing what they read and hear is exactly why this is an issue in this community.

This is why many tax payer believe school should be paid for directly by parents of each child.
What happened to the idea of learning the three RRRs. This bs is why we have fallen way behind the world.

Buy them books, send them to school, and all we get is games. Cut the cord now on this system. Let it be open to the private sector.

copperguy, you have a very clear, concise way of explaining your thoughts and the reasons behind your thoughts/belief system.

Thank you for your input!

buckyfan, et al: A thief may think in his mind that it's ok to steal (think, Robin Hood). Yet, the law makes it illegal. At one time it was legal to own slaves. At one time it was illegal to own alcoholic beverages.

There is a legal age at which a person is no longer a child, and is able to consent to a sexual relationship (absent other factors such as mental competency, etc.). When a sexual predator engages in sexual activity with one who is not legally competent to consent, that is unlawful.

Certainly, homosexual acts involving someone who is not lawfully able to consent are wrong. That is not the given topic of discussion here, as I understand it. In fact, the topic is not sexual acts at all. It is sexual orientation. The question - though not directly posited - is whether it is ok to speak out against people being bullied, beaten, or even killed, because of their sexual orientation...their sexual orientation separate and apart from sexual expression.

As I stated in an earlier post, I have seen no evidence that GSA or any of the posters put up at the school sought to brag about sexual exploits. Rather, they seek to admonish violence based on sexual orientation or any other prejudicial supposition.

I do not deny anyone their right to have biases against behavior that they find offensive. Too many people take offense at the person who may or may not be engaging in that behavior. I have not seen anyone stand up and say, "I have sex in such-and-such a way, and you will be ok with that." Don't get lost in the behavior that one imagines is taking place. That is of no one's concern except the participants (absent the factors I mentioned above).

Yet, from a number of the posts here, it is clear that many people cannot separate their imagination (of what is or is not taking place) from the person who simply wants to be able to be themself without fear of violence against them for just being.

I'm not saying "whatever" to the topic. I'm just saying that we have other things to worry about then homosexuality. Maxdetail, why do you make it seem like I don't care. It's not that I don't care, I really do, but I'm sick of hearing people diss on homosexuals and saying that they shouldn't belong on this planet.

The main reason for The Day Of Silence is to make it known that there are homosexuals out there in the world and it's not wrong to be one. It's okay to be who you want to be. Isn't there a sayin that's like "Be Yourself". Homosexuals are trying to be themselves, but how can they if they're getting dirty looks for it?

I'm sorry that happened to you, buckyfan.

I would refer you to my earlier post that a child learns by guidance from parents/caretakers of what is/is not acceptable behavior. By the time a person is an adult (assuming there are no mental illness issues) there is no logical reason for that person to believe that molesting a child is ok. S/he knows it is against the law AND against human nature.

It sounds like you have a remarkable amount of understanding and forgiveness, as that man virtually stole your childhood, and I commend you for your attitude.

As far as I understand it, homosexuality should not be classified as with all the other sexual "deviants", i.e., pedophilia, bestiality, rapists, because with gay people it is two consenting people. The other sexual proclivities I've listed are the acts of one person against another person (or animal) that cannot or won't consent to the sexual activity.
That is why the other types of "sexuality" will not be acceptable to society.
I recently read about the polygamist Mormons in Texas. Many bloggers at that site thought polygamy was OK, because it was a religious practice. The problem that came out was one of older men "marrying" 12 year-old girls, who didn't want to be in these "marriages", but felt pressured by church members to do "God's will".
Forcing another person into an unwanted sexual act should not be acceptable. Homosexuality involves two consenting people, usually in a loving relationship, just as heterosexuals are.
As far as the GSA group at school, I think the message of bullying/beating up/killing people regardless of who they are, should not be tolerated as well.

Copperguy, remember that at one time homosexuality WAS against the law, making it also a criminal behavior. That has changed over time (in most/all states?).
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I guess the point I was trying to make with my comment is that those who are predators probably don't think of themselves as predators. They probably also think that they are just naturally attracted to children. In other words, their sexual orientation.
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The man who molested me as a child told me he loved me and wanted to marry me. I was a 7 year old. He was my bus driver and baby-sitter's son--a grown man who honestly thought what he was doing was OK.
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To carry forward maxdetail's argument, would you say that we should tolerate this sexual orientation -- because in his mind, it was OK. And if you don't think it's OK, does that mean you hate him or want to kill him? I honestly don't hate him ... I think he's a mixed up guy who's a little slow and honestly didn't understand that he was messing up a little kid with his inappropriate behavior.
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I believe the point maxdetail was trying to make is that not everyone thinks some behaviors are OK. It doesn't mean that the people who hold that position are hate-mongers. And who gets to decide what is acceptable and what's not? Who's the arbiter?

Note the definition of "predator," according to American Heritage Dictionary, as posted at dictionary.com: "One that victimizes, plunders, or destroys, especially for one's own gain."

Being a sexual predator is not an orientation: it is a criminal behavior.

maxdetail, you have given much to this comment board.

Thanks for your insight and authenticity. I would be proud to stand as an ally against violence with you, as well.

Take care.

buckyfan, you asked: "So you're saying sexual predators aren't born that way? What makes him/her a predator instead of it being a sexual orientation?"

I believe that a child is taught at a young age (some say by the time a person is 7 years old) the difference between right and wrong, how to establish boundaries, how to delay gratification and to respect other people, as well as developing intuition of who to trust. This, in my opinion, is also when the highly moral vs. criminal thinking starts and where want vs. need, selfish vs. selfless and good vs. bad behavior is learned.

If children are not taught these things by a parent or loving caretaker, one ventures out alone, by default, and "learns the ropes" without guidance, generally, with negative results.

Ms_Sassy, I've enjoyed the give and take. Thank you for dealing seriously with the topic. I appreciate your ability to express yourself well.

I would be proud to stand with YOU in our common cause to minimize violence in our schools. In this cause you and I are allies. For obvious reasons I could never ally with a group that defines itself in terms of sexual behavior. That kind of group is superfluous to our shared cause.

I'm bowing out of this thread now. Bless you Ms_Sassy, you are a kind and conscientious person.

So you're saying sexual predators aren't born that way? What makes him/her a predator instead of it being a sexual orientation?

maxdetail wrote: "In this forum we have had someone announce that he, she or it is a 'pansexual', another is bi-sexual, then trans-sexual, transgender, and homosexual. We are trying to discuss school violence but half the crowd can't hold back telling us what kind of 'sexual' they are. I DON'T CARE!"

Let's not forget that there are people on this forum who have announced that they are straight. That didn't get your attention or offend you, though. Just the ones who claimed to be of a "different" orientation.

food for thought

"To respect regardless of sexual orientation makes no sense at all. Parents are on the lookout for Daniel D. Anderson right now. Daniel Anderson has a sexual orientation toward young girls, really young kills. I'm sorry GLS, I cannot value nor respect his sexual orientation. There are many other sexual orientations that I can't respect."

That portion of your post is what I was referring to, maxdetail. It sounds like you are using the terms sexual predator and sexual orientation interchangeably when they are not at all related. One's orientation has NOTHING to do with his/her propensity to commit a crime.

maxdetail, you wrote: "No, I cannot accept the presence in our schools of a group that encourages acceptance based on sexual orientation. Now if you want to be against violence toward people, ALL people, then I'll stand four square, shoulder to shoulder with you."

That is exactly the point. Sexual orientation includes gay AND straight. Therefore, it is my understanding that this is a cause against violence of ALL people. ALL people have a sexual orientation, be it gay, straight, bi-sexual, pansexual or any other of the growing list of descriptions that people are calling themselves, I believe in an effort to be an individual. And is also why they are calling it an ALLIANCE. Alliance can be defined as a truce, a bond, an agreement or a connection based on common interest. In my opinion, the common interest is to make school campuses safer for ALL people.

Now will you join me as we stand four square, shoulder to shoulder?

I will look forward to your response Ms_Sassy but please respond to what I wrote and not what you interpreted out of it. No where did I say that "Someone attending public school who happens to have a sexual orientation other than straight is a sexual predator."

I'm asking "who gets to decide which sexual orientation is acceptable?" In this forum we have had someone announce that he, she or it is a 'pansexual', another is bi-sexual, then trans-sexual, transgender, and homosexual. We are trying to discuss school violence but half the crowd can't hold back telling us what kind of 'sexual' they are. I DON'T CARE! These are the only orientations. Let's list the rest of the orientations, let's take them in alphabetical order:
Apotemnophilia, Asphyxophilia, Autogynephilia, Coprophilia, Exhibitionism, Fetishism, Frotteurism, Gerontosexuality, Incest, Kleptophilia, Klismaphilia, Necrophilia, Partialism, Pedophilia, Masochism, Sadism, Telephone Scatalogia, Toucherism, Transvestism, Transvestic Fetishism, Urophilia, Voyeurism, and Zoophilia.
Whoever has a genetic disposition or strong desire to do these things, be my guest. Do it with someone you 'love' in your favorite private place. Don't brag about it, don't post it on YouTube, don't put it on television, just enjoy.
But whatever your orientation, PLEASE, PLEASE, keep it the hell out of our schools.
Goodnight, God bless and rock on.

I will comment more at a later time, maxdetail, about your post, but there is no correlation between Daniel D. Anderson, sex offender, and sexual orientation. Someone attending public school who happens to have a sexual orientation other than straight does NOT make them a criminal preying on young children.

"How can you argue with the GSA's claim that schools are unsafe?"

That's a good question Ms_Sassy.
Every reasonable person in Janesville is against bullying anyone. There IS a problem with violence and hostility in the schools. Everyone is against violence in the schools. The Superintendent and administrators and city council need to address these problems.

What I don't want is for a group that is successfully moving boundaries of morality and acceptability in a radical and dangerous direction coming into my neighborhood school and making it's suggestions. Similarly I would not want the Klan, the polygamists, groups that support beastiality or NAMBLA coming into our schools making suggestions NO MATTER HOW SENSIBLE THEY SOUND!

We aren't talking about skin shade or nationality or disability, we are talking about a behavior. Somehow a group of people who practiced a certain BEHAVIOR were able to maneuver themselves into a movement modeled after the civil rights movement.

Here is the mission statement of GLSEN:
The Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network strives to assure that each member of every school community is valued and respected regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity/expression.

To respect regardless of sexual orientation makes no sense at all. Parents are on the lookout for Daniel D. Anderson right now. Daniel Anderson has a sexual orientation toward young girls, really young kills. I'm sorry GLS, I cannot value nor respect his sexual orientation. There are many other sexual orientations that I can't respect. Someone has to draw some lines somewhere.

GLS has decided which orientations they think are acceptable and it includes a few that many in society can't find acceptable. I say GLS is a poor choice to be an arbiter of morality.

This is a bait and switch scheme. A radically liberal group comes into a school making it's suggestions. If you disagree with their presence then, "YOU MUST BE IN FAVOR OF BEATINGS AND MURDER! YOU MUST BE A HOMOPHOBIC CHRISTIAN! YOU BELIEVE IN A STUPID BOOK! JESUS NEVER MENTIONED HOMOSEXUALS! YOU WANT TO KILL CHILDREN FOR DISOBEYING THEIR PARENTS!", and on it goes. GLSEN even listS the talking points to battle any critic.

No, I cannot accept the presence in our schools of a group that encourages acceptance based on sexual orientation. Now if you want to be against violence toward people, ALL people, then I'll stand four square, shoulder to shoulder with you.

"Kay Sodemann said the Gay Straight Alliance posters call schools unsafe."

Then the new school board president was named. The headline "Expulsions on the mind of new school board president" article on Wednesday, April 30, 2008, said they (the school board) will be asking for the public to get involved to curb the expulsions.

Another article: "Board expels five students", Thursday, April 24, 2008 Janesville Gazette: "Five students accused of fighting with or assaulting other students were expelled by the Janesville School Board on Tuesday."

"One high school student was accused of hitting another student with a sock containing a pool ball." Later in the article, "Director of Student Services Karen Schulte said the expelled student struck the victim once in the back, making a large bruise, and was about to strike the victim’s head when a teacher intervened." Later, "The board also expelled a high school student who was accused of “battering another student.” " And later, "A high school student accused of possessing a knife on school grounds, expelled through the end of this school year."

How can you argue with the GSA's claim that schools are unsafe?

How can a meaningful education take place (where a student might learn skills to be a critical thinker) if a student is worried about which student has a knife, a sock with a pool ball or other weapon, and whether or not they are the target?

I find these threads to be so very frustrating. Not that people are voicing their opinions, I love that aspect and the opportunity afforded us by the Gazette. I appreciate hearing from our youth and about what is important to them.

The frustrating aspects (to me anyway) are these:

1. The rants are totally devoid of logic. They are all emotion and bravado with little evidence to the ability to think critically on any topic.
2. The contentiousness is nearly always unwarranted. The anonymity allowed by these forums gives many folks the equivalent of 'beer muscles'. They attack from an inflated and exaggerated position of knowledge that has been neither acquired nor earned. Because there is a lack or critical thinking and logic, the writer makes personal attacks against those he or she disagrees with.
3. There is such an eagerness to be heard that many forget about the topic at hand.
The topic of this thread is NOT about whether homosexuality is right or wrong. It is about supplanting and distracting from the education of our children and the use of schools by ANY group to push it's social agenda.
With the inability to think critically and to form an argument we have created the 'generation whatever'. Penguingurl6 gives us a very clear picture of what is left when one separates thought from logical sequence, from any kind of historical context or connectiveness, from politics, from community and from ethics. Her response is 'whatever'. How can you argue with that?

I think the day of silence should be for remembering the thousands of people who have died years before their time because they chose a lifestyle that kills. Look up the life expectancy of gays and lesbians. Its genocide to promote this lifestyle.

Mikki-Superior, no. But I think you were trying to look a little superior by alluding you came up with that yourself.

Ms_Sassy, touche.

This really needs to just be dropped. What's it matter if someone's gay, bisexual or straight. It does no harm to you. It's just a way of life. There isn't much difference except for who you love. I belive it's okay to be gay, bi or straight. You love who you love, you can't help it and trying to hide it will just make you unhappy. There's other things going out there in the world that we should be concered about. It's okay to have your opinion, but when your doing harm to someone else because of it, that's just crossing the line and wrong. At Craig there was a bunch of posters up saying, "Murdered for being Gay". Violence is not the answer. I happen to go to Craig and I was there on the Day of Silence. I didn't hear about anyone turning gay. As if you just turn gay because of reading a poster or even looking at one. It just doesn't happen that way. Your either born gay, bi or straight. One of my best friends happens to be pansexual and her little sister is bisexual and I'm straight. I've hung out with them both many times and I consider them like family and yet I'm still straight. Some of you act like hanging around someone who's gay or bi will make you gay or bi. It doesn't rub off on you like a cold or flu would. So what if a girl loves a girl or a boy loves a boy, what's so wrong about that? I belive that not loving anyone at all is wrong. Alot of you bring Religion into this, but not everyone's the same Religion or Religious at all. You can be gay or bi and still be Religious. You say that homosexuality is a sin, but if God says its a sin then why would he create it in the first place? I'm looking at the Advertisment at the bottom of this page and it's for www.rainbowchristians.com. You can be gay or bi and still belive in God. There's really nothing wrong with that. If you don't like it, well I say tough. Get over it. Take all your energy and put it towards something that will change the world. Worry about something else. If you haven't noticed gas prices are going up like crazy and the O-Zone layer is being destroyed, why don't you go and care about those issues and not worry anymore about this. Since this isn't an issue. It certainly wasn't last year when GSA had the Day of Silence at Craig High School. Just don't worry about it anymore that's all I ask. (:

I, as well, "borrowed" that post from another blog on this same issue.
My intent was not to make fun of Christianity, but to point out that people say, "Oh, the newer part of the Bible says you can ignore the older parts of the Bible, because those rules were meant for a different time".
It just struck me as odd that people still refer to Leviticus to condemn homosexuality and then say Leviticus has been "over-ruled" by another passage of the Bible.
And, like other posters have pointed out, the Bible was used to justify slavery 150 years ago.
So, it makes quoting the Bible (given to us by the Word of God Himself) a contradictory Book.
What I take from the Bible is the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself, which mainly teaches us how to treat our fellow humans, with love and dignity, and to help those who are less fortunate than ourselves.

Mikki, perhaps the timing was wrong. My post was regarding ongoing comments from tjncj, maxdetail and me. My post was not regarding your post. (although the Bible IS the word of God and I take some offense to having it be made fun of in that regard. You are entitled to your opinion; however, I take the Bible seriously.)

Not to harsh on you more, Mikki, but posting anything written by someone else without giving credit is plagiarism (also known as stealing).
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Let's not get into the whole Bible debate again. You're welcome to read my previous posts to see that homosexuality is written in the New Testament, too, as are a lot of other sins (including many that I have committed and others that I struggle with every day).
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While we're at it, maybe it's time to put this beaten horse to bed. I don't think anything else will be accomplished here ... if anything ever was.

Seeing as I just found the thread today and had a couple minutes, no I didn't, and that is my fault.
But apparently some people make themselves feel better by jumping all over others. They have issues. I admitted mine.

yes. apparently you didn't take the time to read and let the comments I made sink in. (sorry, I couldn't resist. No hard feelings, tjncj?)

Sorry, I got it from a friend, I wasn't aware it was 'stolen'. Excuse me. Guess that's all you can say, huh. Now, did that make you feel all superior? Want a pat on the back?

And sorry that I didn't see the previous poster. My mistake. The OT usage about homosexuality being an abomination, that's what I was getting at.

Amazing, Mikki, that you and jsvlparkergrad had the exact same post!!! He did his a long time ago, and here's what I said to him...

Yes the Old Testament had a lot of strange teachings, like the laws of menustration, animal sacrifice, eating pork, etc., etc. That is considered the "old law," created to show us the impossibility of living a sinless life. Christ's death abolished the old law:
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Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Were you going to give Laura Schlessinger credit for that Mikki, or just take the plagiarism path?

To those that want to quote the Bible, I have some questions, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
For example when I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
And I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
You asked about slavery? Well Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
And if I can own Mexicans, can I just grab some of the neighbors kids? They are just hanging around, doing nothing anyway.
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? Should I stone him, shoot him, or rent a woodchipper?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. My husband has bifocals. Does his vision have to be 20/20, what if he has his contacts in?
Most of the guys I know get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die? Again, woodchipper?
I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? What about pork rinds? The BBQ Kind?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?(Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?(Lev. 20:14) Or I can save money by renting the woodchipper and doing the entire thing at once.

Giddyup

That's the message you were trying to get across? OK.
Well said copperguy, but curlrock is a chop.

thank you, again, copperguy! Your comments and those of Curlrock express what I have been unable to find words to say.
A person, not the "group" s/he belongs to, is what is important, imho.

Hey, Ho! We're finally getting into some real quality discussion here. No offense to the other posters for taking a position...just tht I think we've finally opened the door to some great dialogue.

Curlrock: I couldn't agree with you more. BUT..........

You have touched on one of the hugest (I know...probably not a word) issues of society. A large number of people draw inferences and conclusions about groups based on perception. And that perception is based on the things that stand out. Mention the word "Christian," and many folks picture Jimmy Swagart, Ted Hagerty, etc.. How about "priest?" Images of the sex abuse disaster. "Police?" Some folks see "jack-booted thugs," or bullies abusing their authority. Oh, and how about "gay?" Perhaps some think of "a limp wristed, effeminate fop."

There are two points: First is that the exceptions among any group are the ones who stand out. Second is that those exceptions are most always the exception to the norm.

I used to be one of those folks who would disdain "Christians" (though I am one myself) because of Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swagart. What right, I would ask, does someone like Bob Dornan or Jessie Helms have to stand before Congress or the Senate and spew their venom toward people who are simply different than them in some way?

One day it occurred to me, though, that I have no more right to deny them their rights, than they have to deny me or anyone else our rights. hence, my earlier post about intolerance. And by labeling Christians with the image of Falwell, etc., is unfair to the vast majority of Christians whose opinions are most certainly not those of the vocal minority.

Yes, in some regard Christianity has a PR problem. So do most professions and groups if we paint with a broad brush.

The issues of gay rights and the oppression that non-heterosexual people face are quite real. As a cop, I do see it clearly, especially among young people. Folks conjure up images of what they think a person does or doesn't do in intimacy. Folks believe that they know what is normal and abnormal for all people based on their own experiences. They imagine all sorts of things.

What a lot of people fail to grasp is that gay rights aren't about accepting or condoning or celebrating how a person expresses their love or physical affection. Just as the civil rights movement was to gain equal treatment for PEOPLE who happen to not be white anglo-saxon protestants, gay rights are about equal treatment for PEOPLE who just happen to not be heterosexual. It took special protections to force civil rights for racial minorities, handicapped, etc.. And, so, it takes special protections to force civil rights for sexual minorities.

Sorry Seabee. I counted at least five errors. I didn't have time to proofread my post.

maxdetail and Rocky- It's not my intention to dispute you beliefs. I think a problem that most non-Christians and many Chritians have deals with the "face" of Christianity over the over the past 30 years. This may be what brethefire13 was getting at. I believe this is a real problem that Christianity as a whole has not addressed. Over time, this has alienated many people. What resonates with the non-Christians and maybe more importantly "fringe" Christians, is the likes of, Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggaert, Oral Roberts, Ted Haggerty(sp)(sorry Seabee), repesenting the face of Christianity. I know the two of you may be able to name ten other leaders who are not like these men, but the point is many people cant, and that's your problem. You can sy that these men don't represent you views but that has been the face of Chritianity. The response that we all sin does not give these men a pass either. Christainity needs to do better than that or risk pushing more peolple farther away.
I do believe that faith is personal and should not be driven by media type Christians. All I am saying is Christianity has a PR problem and nobody wants to address it.

tjncj, I do read and comprehend the posts here.

I respect the other poster's comments. As I have said before, what I see as the main problem is what is being overlooked and overshadowed by sexual orientation, which is a topic that people tend to be very passionate about.

Here's the funny thing Ms Sassy. I agree with you. I find nothing wrong with the day of silence or the GSA. My kids go to Craig and have gay friends that are welcome in my house. I have no problem with it.
My point is you don't read the other posts carefully or understand Seabee's or Maxdetails points. You just keep posting the same thing over and over. They have valid points and I respect them although I may not agree 100%.

tjncj, the fact that you are of a different opinion than mine does not mean that I don't get it, as your post suggests.

Nor does it mean that because you don't like what I say that I don't get to say it.

Perhaps you might decide that your harsh tone and mean words is an example of precisely the bullying approach that some want to eradicate.

There is an old saying, "To the man whose only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Seabee-She is never gonna get your point, one track mind, says the same thing over and over. About 3 dozen times yesterday on various blogs.

well all I can say is that bullying, violence and trying to appear "better" (or will stand better before God on reckoning day) than someone else is wrong. I don't care what/who a person is.

If awareness about violence against some or all students on campuses around the country is wrong in your opinion, so be it.

maxdetail-...That post makes the most sense as any I've ever read, especially at the end.

Ms. sassy, you are missing my point. If I get beat down because I am wearing $500 shoes and somebody else wants them, what is the difference between that and a gay person being beat down because he/she is gay? Either way, a beat down still occurs. Do you think that the perp of either crime really gives a rip about one victim or the other? I am not advocating violence against anybody, except perps. What you are saying in effect is, since so and so is gay, they should not recieve a beat down. You are trying to make being gay some sort of special status above and beyond being straight, with a nice pair of shoes. And lets say we really raise awareness about gay issues, and pass a few nonsensical laws protecting the now special status of gay people. Do you think that a gay person will then feel like "hey, I got special laws protecting me now so I think I will walk through this thug infested neighborhood at midnight because nobody will hurt me because I am gay and have special protection under the law?" I think not. This whole thing seems to me to be a bunch of pandering to a group of people who seem to feel like they should be specially protected from the cruelties of the world because of their gender preferences.

you are right, Seabee...I'm against violence wherever it occurs.

being a victim of a theft and getting beat down in the act IS NO LESS of a crime.

The fact remains that people who are "different" than you and I (use whatever group you choose...disabled, gay, lesbian, etc, or black or Hispanic....)are (but SHOULD NOT be) treated differently, and often times, violently. That is what I am against.

Actually, this is about a persons orientation. "The alliances have been hanging informational posters around their schools all week, leading up to the annual Day of Silence, a nationally organized effort to protest bullying of students who are lesbian, gay or transgender". Evidently, only the gay students get bullied.

this is about a person's basic right to protection of life, liberty, and property.

AGAIN, this is NOT about a person's sexual orientation and whether or not you agree with the choices a person makes regarding partners.

This IS, however, about a person's right to attend public schools, receive an education and personal fulfillment in an atmosphere that is not hostile, aggressive, oppressed or violent.

I can't imagine that every Christian wouldn't support that mission. People wanting to exist in a safe world and expressing their concern when violence occurs; AND making a stand against violence.

Sassy, I have been beaten, bullied and ridiculed at one time in my life or another. Never murdered though. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of murder victims weren't gay. I'm not gay, yet all those other things you mentioned happened to me, and probably most people. Seems to me that gay people are looking for special treatment, not equal treatment. Does it really matter why any of those things you mentioned happen? I think not. This issue is just like the hate crime issue. Technically, aren't all crimes hate crimes? If i get a beat-down because somebody wants to steal my shoes, am I less of a crime victim than say a gay person who gets beat down? I'm not being flippant or sarcastic here, I just honestly believe that the line of logic these groups are using is flawed.

Ms_Sassy,
I don't have the right not to be ridiculed or bullied, and beating or murdering anybody is punishable by law. I have three friends who are homosexuals who also don't have the right not to be ridiculed or bullied but if somebody beats them I will work to see the beater prosecuted. If somebody murders them I will work to see them executed.

These laws and rights are on the books and offer equal protection regardless of skin shade, creed, gender or sexual lifestyle. This infiltration of the school is all about establishing special rights, redefining marriage, and main streaming behavior that goes against both God and biology.

seabee: treatment that you don't have? beaten up or murdered, bullied and blatant ridicule, for starters.

I am hoping that one day all of humanity can live in peace.

Dear breathefire13, I really do appreciate the time you took write your concerns. You share your thoughts well. I know you were writing to Rocky but I would sure like to address some of the things you said and perhaps clear up a few misconceptions.

Your are correct to believe that Christians have no right to bash you or even criticize you based on their cleanliness, righteousness or standing before God. Unfortunately, Television and movies and large parts of the culture have stereotyped Christians as self-righteous hicks who love to look down on others. I'm offended by that but in many ways we brought it on ourselves. Christians certainly have their own large section in the lunatic fringe.

Your generalization is as offensive to me as I suppose it offends a homosexual being portrayed as a limp wristed, effeminate fop. A Christian has no righteousness of his own, he's not clean and cannot stand before a holy God without a just mediator. I am as fit for Hell as you are. God doesn't judge on a curve, we all, without exception, stand guilty as sin of sin.
I cannot judge you but God judges us all and he does leave us to flip coins about what sin is, he is clear about what is right and what is wrong.

A Christian is one to whom God has revealed our utterly ruined condition and condemnation. I won't condemn you breathefire13, for I believe we are both condemned already. The Christian trusts that Jesus Chris sacrificed himself as an atonement and satisfied God's wrath against us. The Christian is one who struggles against sin out of gratitude for what God has done to redeem us. Some struggle more successfully than others, I am no more pleasing to him today then I was 50 years ago yet in Christ I am saved from the penalty of sin.

The Bible does establish government and charges government to judge and punish the evil doer. I am neither a governor nor judge but it is my obligation to warn my fellow traveler that he or she is breaking God's law and is in danger of suffering the consequences from government and/or God. You would agree we can't drive one hundred miles an hour in a school zone wouldn't we. We can't do whatever we want.

If there is a Creator, (the Christian believes there is a Creator) then his creatures are responsible to HIm. I am not the law and neither are you. What a fix we'd be in if everyone did what they thought was right in their own eyes.

The rest of the world doesn't think America is a bunch of backward hicks, they think we are pornographers. They see our shows, they believe we are sex crazed, sex obsessed Britanys and Paris Hiltons and Queer Eye For the Straight Guy. They don't want any part of 'freedom' if freedom means license. I can't say that I blame them.

Exactly what treatment and rights do gay people not have that I do??

Okay Rocky you dont think I'm real. I don't really care.

The only reason I have an issue with the majority of the christian population is because they bash my lifestyle when half of them aren't nearly as clean, just, and righteous as they seem. I am sickened by the fact that they can act high and mighty like they are God. No one has the right to judge anyone else. Doesn't the bible actually say to not judge others lest you be judged yourself. Only god should have the right to judge anyone. I used to believe in God and have faith, but now all i see is corrupted people pointing fingers in his name. It's beyond sad.

Honestly all gay people really want is to have the same rights and treatment as everyone else. Is that too much to ask?

Oh and by the way I'm sure that wearing a shirt and tie on a hot day is really not that big of a deal. And i seriously doubt that people really care about what you wear. It's completely irrelevant.

Not all homosexuals, bisexuals, nor pansexuals have sex before marriage. Not that they're allowed to even get married because of pompous politicans that are so close minded they cannot accept any other way of life than their own.

Jeez. No wonder the rest of the world thinks America is a bunch of backwards hicks that are uneducated.

Stop judging other people and focus on fixing all of your problems. This world is a messed up place enough as it is without more arguing and fighting.

maxdetail wrote:

“I don't have to accept your worldview, however, I'd better be able to defend mine as a better alternative to yours, otherwise I have no right to try and poke holes in yours. I look forward to doing this with anyone.”

tjncj wrote:
“He never did "object to that" Ms_Sassy. You keep posting but never take the time to read carefully or comprehend what maxdetail (or anyone else on any post for that matter) sink in first.”

What is there to sink in, tjncj? Maxdetail appears to believe that he has a “better alternative” of a worldview than I do. Nothing I say, obviously, will “poke” a big enough “hole” in his error in judgment to change that, and I, quite frankly, don’t feel the need to argue, as it will be wasted energy.

I was raised to treat people as they would like to be treated. This is my reason to defend the rights of students who are being bullied, beaten and abused on school campuses and has as much to do with my worldview or my spirituality as much as it has to do with treating humans with respect.

thank you, copperguy!

hmmmm....I "keep" and I "never"

sound like fairly closed minded and absolute statements to me

He never did "object to that" Ms_Sassy. You keep posting but never take the time to read carefully or comprehend what maxdetail (or anyone else on any post for that matter) sink in first.

Here's the thing. I don't WANT to tell you what to do/believe. But, I sure don't want you to tell ME what to do/believe, either.

We MUST find a way to live in this world together, bear one another's burdens and let people see that we are all made from the same "cloth".

I do not feel that MY way of seeing things or my opinion is best. But I don't want to be told it's inferior or wrong either.

There are people who make errors in judgment and there are those who have criminal thinking. They are not necessarily one in the same and I believe that I will be shown in due time when I have an error in thinking.

I firmly believe it is WRONG, however, to allow bullying on school campuses to continue.

I would love it if people would go around and hang posters in the halls of the schools that remind people to take care of their neighbor, to help when they can, and to bear one another's burdens to the best of their ability. If they cannot help by doing any of the above, maybe posters could be hung up that just read: We all have to live one day at a time. If you can help me to get through this one, tomorrow I'll help you?

Would you object to that?

GSA and its members seem to me to be saying that discrimination, harassment, bullying, etc., against those who are - or are perceived to be - different is not acceptable. It also seems that they are saying this is an issue that far too many people have been silent about for far too long.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing about GSA that throws the bedroom happenings of anyone into anyone else's face. There doesn't seem to be anything in the posters that proclaims intimate sexual contact. There are many people - of many sexual orientations - who are not sexual at all. Yet, they know their identity. The posters, website, and DOS do not seem to proclaim sex of any kind. Rather, they talk about the PEOPLE who are gay, lesbian, bi, trans, etc..

I have seen postings here proclaiming to "hate the sin but love the sinner," but are totally against GSA and the DOS. Since the organization and the event are all about the PEOPLE (read, "sinner"), shouldn't those folks be shouting the praises of the organization and event instead of condemning them? Some of those posters seem to be the ones who are taking an event that is about the people and turning it into an event that is about imagined acts.

Ms_Sassy, tell me what it is that you want me to do. Am I to accept that others have a different view than I do? I do. Then you also say I'm to accept that different view? So which are you demanding I accept?

Should we hold every opinion with equal value and truth? Should I accept every view that every person holds? Should we have a line we draw somewhere? You perceive some as having an intolerant view. Won't you accept their view even though it's not yours. Can I place posters in the schools that encourage kids to please don't be rude to intolerant people and support their causes?

No, we can't all just get along for the reason you've already stated, it's simplistic. Our culture is not simplistic.

Everyone of us has a different worldview but each worldview answers four questions:

What is our origin? Where can we find meaning? How do we define ethics? and what is our destiny?

I don't have to accept your worldview, however, I'd better be able to defend mine as a better alternative to yours, otherwise I have no right to try and poke holes in yours. I look forward to doing this with anyone. But just barking out an idea doesn't make it valuable or true.

I'm not saying I'm right Ms_Sassy, I'm defending my right, and the rights of those of similar mindset, to disagree without having to be called 'phobic, fundamentalist christian, intolerant, nazi, etc.'

I am against bullying anyone, against beating anyone, against murdering anyone. I love people and I respect you.

Interesting take, maxdetail.

If you read my comments from an earlier post:

I am completely overwhelmed by the vast number of people who are totally incapable of living peacefully next to others who are different than they are. Everyone wants to "celebrate" their individuality and not live "in a box", yet cannot accept that others have a different perception of life. To get overly simplistic, WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!

I want to not only appreciate other people's views, I want to try to understand them. To me, you are dismissing the fact that others have a different view than you do.

Breathefire13 - I'm not even sure you are for real, but I'll do you the honor of assuming you are genuine.

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First, thanks for helping me make my point. Being pansexual (sexual without regard to gender) is simply the next step on that slope I mentioned earlier. Clearly the trend is to more and more immorality - and make no mistake about it, sexual behavior outside of a man/woman marriage is immoral, regardless of the gender of the persons involved. That being said, basically what you do in your bedroom is your own business, and I would appreciate you being silent about it all the time -not just one day per year. I simply don't need or want to know, and I am offended when you push your sexuality in my face. My Christian morality doesn't have to apply to you or effect how you live. If you don't want me to confront your behavior then don't tell me that it is ok and that I have to accept it as normal - because that will never happen. Just live your iife quietly and I'll do the same. Not only that, but I'll defend your right to live as you please and agree with you that you should not be discriminated against for your beliefs (as I hope you'd do for me and my Christian beliefs - even though they are polar opposite from your own.) Guess what? I get stared at when I wear a suit and tie on hot summer Sundays. Do I whine about it and declare a "day of protest" because someone stared at me because I'm different? Nope. Let 'em stare good and hard. I'm over it.

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However, you are correct in one thing...love is for everyone. The lie you've bought into is that love = sex, and therefore sex is for everyone all the time. Sorry - that is a lie, and when someone pushes the lies of their agenda on my children and family, I will counter with the truth.

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The "Day of Silence" is billed as a day to protest discrimination. That is fine. The problem comes in when it also emphasizes the "homosexulaity is normal and acceptable" mantra, then I stand in opposition.

Ms_sassy,
It's apparent from your contentious tone that you are more interested in stirring the pot than seeking to be understood. You give the impression that like change for the s