Bush declines to promise that more troops will return from Iraq before he leaves office

Obama isn't consistent neither is Hillary

"Not like those bleading heart liberals who are all wishy washy on all subjects."
I don't think any of the liberals who blog here are wishy washy. (In fact most are pretty straight forward and consistent) I think you call them that because their views are different than yours. By the way, its spelled BLEEDING...

If your wondering why we haven't left yet and think that nothing is happening over there you may want to visit this site.
www.defenseLink.mil

Yes, you sure do see where Bush stands. As for myself, I don't necessarily see where directives set in stone, with no room for flexibility (termed "wishy-washy" by people not liking you no matter what your stance is) can always be the way to go. As I read this story http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/03/1...
about the miserable humanitarian crisis happening in Iraq, where Cheney was quoted as saying "It has been a difficult, challenging, but none the less successful endeavor."
I wanted someone to remind me of what these "successes" are and what they've done for (or to?) those poor people.

You know where Bush stands on all subjects. Not like those bleading heart liberals who are all wishy washy on all subjects.

If you don't like him or not. You know where he stands on the issues at hand.

That would probably work. From what I hear, they don't show up half of the time.

Is the Iraqi National Guard hiring?

Hey, I know...Bush is done in November or maybe earlier if we offer him a buyout.
He will be looking for work so send him over to run Iraq. They are looking for a new dictator...

thekai- I don't think we can just up and leave Iraq just because we haven't found any WMD's. President Bush also stated that there would be regime change. Which we did but, they need help rebuilding a government and a military. I would have to leave it up to the Commanders to let us know when we should get our troops out of there. If we left now do you really think it would be the right thing to do? The terrorists want us out to should we listen to them and withdrawal so they can take over?

whybesad,
If you are confused as to who is fighting the American presence in Iraq, just look it up in the news. You'll find plenty of articles which show that religious groups want us out of Iraq. Do you think that all citizens in Iraq are agnostic? Please do not be so naive or blind. To your question about what would I have done with that intelligence... if you read my previous posts carefully, you will find the answer within. I know I posted a lot though, so to make things easier on you, I'll copy and paste my earlier response.
"Whybesad,
If we had solid intelligence that Iraq had WMD, then invasion would be the only practical thing to do. However, a man, woman, or country, with too much pride is also without much wisdom. None were found. Why are we still over there?"
The response was, in fact, directed straight towards you. Perhaps you aren't understanding the message I am trying to convey. With the intelligence that we had about Iraq, it seemed clear that they were hiding something. We didn't know what, but it wouldn't have made sense to discard it as no big deal. Invading Iraq was the right thing to do. However, we found no such weapons of mass destruction. The whole purpose for us invading was because we knew they had WMDs... now that we know we were wrong, why haven't we left? If you are too full of pride, then you will never learn from your mistakes.

thekai- So, it's mostly Iraqi's killing American soldiers? Where's your proof? And why is it when an Al Queda leader tapes a speech they vow to keep fighting the Americans in Iraq? Saddam made his choice not to come clean with the UN or us. He could have let the inspectors do their jobs. He had 12 years to comply with the sanctions. That's plenty of time don't ya think? What would you have done given that you had intelligence that said Saddam had WMD's (which he did use before against his own people or are you going to deny that?) Would you have just turned your head and hope that the problem went away? Would you have continued to have the UN (which was getting millions of dollars from Saddam in the oil for food scandal) "inspect" Iraq and have them look for WMD's only where Saddam told them to look?

thekai- The numbers weren't really what I was trying to get across. I was referring to the frequency of the attacks and the number of attacks. We haven't had one attack since 9/11. Also, I don't think that the planning for the 9/11 attacks happened in 8 months of the Bush administration. I think a lot of these attacks could have been prevented if we would have some sort of terrorist servelance program that we have now (which is to expire on Sunday so, call your senators and have them extend it).

thekai: AND MARINES!! :o)

Cracker: Thank you for your service! Thank you for your sharing your first hand perspective of the war. So much of what you say hits the nail right on the head. When I find myself complaining over something small and trivial, I say hey there are people out there with alot worse things going on, so then I count my blessings. I am thankful for all our soldiers!

fldpan: At first the country was unified after 911 but as time went on the differences started. I support our troops, my husband was in the service before all this (Desert Shield)so I know how important it is to support the troops who are doing their jobs! However I tend to think that this war in Iraq will never end as it is a religious war over there. A war that has been going on for decades. I also think that even if you had a democratic president who had done the same thing then you would have republicans fighting him every step of the way. Welcome to the world of politics! If our parties could ever get it right and work together ( and not just for a little while)then think how much better the US would be. Wouldn't it be nice to have a government that actually listens to the people, works for the people and represents the people?

I'm with hockeyjockey, you guys (thekai and cracker) are great. I didn't think many people in the military thought this way.
I could have used you the other day. Here I am trying to convince our cab driver that whether we leave now or stay 5-10 years, it's not going to be pretty.
Leave now and let the Iraqi government (and their giant surplus) do their own thing. We shouldn't be spending our money when they have plenty of their own, sitting idle in foreign banks no less.
I'm glad to see our opinions are being represented here. Keep up the good work.

Hockeyjockey That would be an interesting ticket. Self proclaimed bit of a liberal Marine and a conservative soldier. Maybe the only thing we’d agree on is Iraq. Here’s an interesting observation though. Two people on opposite ends of the political spectrum, two different branches of service, two different time frames, and I’d bet two different locations and missions. Yet we come to the same conclusion about Iraq. Hey did everyone read about the Iraqi government having a budget surplus, I wish we did too.

I'm sorry, RUserious, I wasn't trying to put you down. I simply agreed that I think most people in here have read the news and want to know someone's personal thoughts. Research and bibliographies are still important. When I said you got 0 points, I just meant for that particular agrument...

just my 2 cents.
Bush got us into Iraq, JFK into Vietnam. Bush stole the election in Florida; Kennedy stole his in Chicago. Bush outed a CIA agent; Kennedy left hundreds of them to die in the surf at the Bay of Pigs. Bush lied about his military service; Kennedy accepted a Pulitzer Prize for a book written by Ted Sorenson. Bush was in bed with the Saudis, Kennedy with the Mafia.

If the November election was today, I'd be writing in thekai for President, and Cracker for VP.

At what point is the government of Iraq going to be expected to step up and start taking responsibility for their future?
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It seems to me that this should be the "line in the sand" which will determine when and how we live the first day of the rest of our occupation in Iraq.

Wow thekai, I feel like we were all in a classroom taking a test, and finally the teacher came in and gave us our grades. I got 0 points :-(
Now, I’ll rate you as a teacher. Up to now, my previous teachers always told me to “CREDIT YOUR SOURCES!” I did, and look what happens. You said you want a posters view, not someone else’s. No one can come up with facts, figures-or their viewpoint-out of a vacuum. If they did, it wouldn’t be worth reading except as fiction. I sure don’t want to wildly post things that seem to come from nowhere, so I credit-and quote-my sources. You know why? Because in many instances I like to know where some of the views of others were formed-I learn a lot that way. I try not to generally assume that another’s views don’t have merit; sometimes they post something I didn’t know before, and when I see-or at least can find without too much trouble-that there views are backed up with facts, then I am satisfied that those views do have merit. I don't expect anyone to blindly believe my views are valid, nor should anyone expect me to have blind faith in what they say. If we all already thought the same, these forums would be a waste of space. I could post links-but I saw someone on a gazette forum once tell a poster who linked to his sources that he didn’t like getting “reading assignments”. I post based on the kinds of posts I like to read and can learn from. Other people might feel differently about it, but no one can post to please all readers. Like you, for example. You write a book, I write Cliff notes. (well, maybe the occasional book, too.)
That being said, I have much the same perspective as what you've written in your book. I couldn't put it down. I read it in one night.

Dr. Talk,
Did you know that Germans have resented Bush as a whole long before 9/11? In fact, I believe that I read somewhere that the Germans did their own poll of who they would vote for in 2000, Bush or Gore. Gore won by some insane landslide... something like 84%. Bush's policies of isolationism only pushed the resentment even further, and by the time there was talk of invading Iraq, Germany wanted no part of it. They did send soldiers on donkeys to Afghanistan, though. They felt supporting America and the rest of the free world in the war on terror was the right thing to do. They didn't feel supporting America in bullying a dictator out of his country was the right way to handle a tyrant, though. Maybe they wanted some sort of reconstruction plan to be thought of FIRST.
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Crafty,
I'm a bit of a liberal, but that doesn't make me sappy. I did indeed read this article before even reading responses. I DEP'd in March 2004, and went to bootcamp in February 2005. After both 9/11 and the war in Iraq. I too was not drafted. To clarify for anyone out there who may be confused... there has been no draft. Stop loss is in effect though. Some members in deployable units have their contracts extended against their will. Some members are also recalled back to active duty. This is not a "shady" thing to do, though. I signed an 8 year contract. Four years active, four years inactive. The inactive time is when I can get recalled. These "horror" stories only come from people who didn't fully understand what they were really signing up for. I hate when people try to make the military look dishonest....
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One more thing.... I noticed someone gave their highest regards to the soldiers/airmen/sailors of our country. What about the Marines ;-). Don't you think for even one minute that we are held to the same low standards as the soldiers :-p.

(Just a little friendly criticism folks, obviously all branches are respectable.)

Whybesad,
If we had solid intelligence that Iraq had WMD, then invasion would be the only practical thing to do. However, a man, woman, or country, with too much pride is also without much wisdom. None were found. Why are we still over there?
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ski1357,
I somehow seriously doubt that Osama Bin Laden started a war, "On terrorism." He provoked us to bring the fight to him. Sorry... I know what you meant, but just the way you worded it.. I had to say something.
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fldpan,
I'm a member of the armed services. I'm a Marine. I think we should leave Iraq. We aren't accomplishing anything over there. I'm all about fighting terrorism, but what we're doing right now can only be misconstrued as fighting terrorism....
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fldpan,
Again... you say that for the last 8 years, everything Bush has tried to do in Iraq has been crapped on by the democrats? Obviously not. We're occupying Iraq right now, aren't we? And technically, you just agreed that Bush wanted to invade Iraq even before 9/11 happened (as if there had been any connection anyways.)
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Whatdidyousay,
1 point you, 0 points RUserious on the debate of pasting other news articles.. I believe most people in here want to read the individual poster's view, not someone else's...
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Seabee,
Are you crazy? First of all... FDR was an awesome president!!!! One of the best this country has ever had! Well, again, my personal opinion. Anyways... we are occupying Japan, mostly, to establish a presence in the Pacific. Could you imagine what would happen if North Korea attacked Japan, or pushed beyond the 38th parallel and the U.S.'s closest ships were in Hawaii? It would take us a long time to get there. I flew from S. Korea to Japan in 53 minutes on a C-130. For those of you who don't know, a C-130 isn't a very fast plane at all. That being said, it would take less than three hours to establish a sizeable Marine force in S. Korea, if N. Korea ever invaded or attacked. I think that's very important to have... and most of the rest of the world agrees.
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Whybesad,
What mission will never be accomplished if we leave? What mission will be accomplished if we [never] leave? You are at least in some way implying that we can not win if we leave. There is a movie with a quote that I like, and I also feel is appropriate here.. sometimes you have to lose to win.
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whybesad,
Al Queda isn't putting up most of the fight in Iraq right now. Believe it or not, it's mostly *gasp* the Iraqis. A lot of Sunnis and Shiites, but seeing as how they lived within the Iraqi border before we invaded... they are still Iraqis.

(cont)

Ok... I took a long time to read what everyone had to say. Some of your posts made me laugh. Some made me mad... other's inspired me. The strongest feelings from some of the more controversial posts made me want to just skip the rest and post a reply. I don't think that would be fair though, as I would want all of you to read all of my post as well.
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I'm now going to reply from the bottom of the page toward the top...
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Shawn12770,
How many American citizens have died in domestic terror attacks since 9/11?
Obviously none, but how often do we even have domestic terror attacks? How many U.S. servicemen and women have died since September 11, 2001 in a highly controversial war?
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Whatdidyousay,
This war is very similar to Vietnam, but then again, Apples and Oranges are both still fruits...
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Toasty2k,
Bush has done a great job at running this country into the ground (my personal opinion.) Additionally, Clinton was not turning away from obvious terrorist attacks. Bill Clinton was a good president and often did what he could to deter and/or counter terrorist attacks. Why didn't Bush send a much larger force into Afghanistan when he was fairly positive that's where Osama Bin Laden was?
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Gwendt,
I'm a fan of Bush Sr. but definitely not big on Bush Jr. To be fair, though, Bush Sr. had plenty of countries against us, and Bush Jr, as much as I hate the fact, had the support of many countries as well. He has since lost the support of many of those countries, though.
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Whatdidyousay,
Bush was warned that Osama Bin Laden was planning to attack the United States by hijacking an airplane. What did Bush do? He cut the budget for anti-terrorism.... this was pre 9/11, of course. So to be completely fair, Bush was not trying to correct these "holes" in Clinton's policies.
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Stewy,
I didn't double or even triple check my numbers, but the total deaths for all of those terrorist attacks under the Clinton administration is about 433. Some of those deaths, I believe, we not American deaths. (That's not to say that one life isn't worth as much if it's not American. I'm getting to my point...) How many lives were lost as a direct result of the 9/11 attacks? How many men and women in uniform have we lost in Iraq and Afghanistan? How many civilians have been killed in Iraq because of insurgent bombers who are there to deter OUR presence? Please respond with some (mostly) accurate numbers, and then compare.
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Cracker,
I agree with you 100%. It's become nothing but a giant money drain. Civil war is inevitable in Iraq. If we leave tonight, or if we leave ten years from now, the outcome won't be much different at all.

(continued)

Hey Delta, he uses that I got the last word in "BYE" thing often.
Kinda funny when you think of it...

Has any war gone as planned?

whatdidyouwhatever,
For deserving to be ignored, its nice to see you can't stop ignoring me...hehe

Here here, Cracker.

deltafoxwhatever
If you were to read my comments from the beginning of this thread until now, you would see that I have addressed the substance of the debate many times. When you chose to resort to calling the president names, at that time YOU became no big deal and deserved to be ignored. Bye!

Cracker - I really appreciate your perspective and level-headed posts. I agree with you that most people are apathetic about the war(both those who support it and those who oppose it) and I feel the same way you do when I read/watch the "news" about celebrity break-ups and addictions.

At the same time, the current administration came into the White House (even before 9/11) saying it wasn't going to let public opinion sway its decision making, and it has been true to that promise. Why should people have an opinion about the nation's affairs when their leaders tell them they don't care what they are?

I think dreec is right to say we should write our leaders, and I have, but I also believe forums like this are a legitimate way to address political issues. I think the debate is informative and for better or worse it's web-pages like this where most public debate takes place anymore. Most of us are surrounded by people who agree with us on a day to day basis, and places like this allow us to hear and respond to opinions that differ from our own. Hopefully learning that those with different opinions aren't evil or dangerous. I think that is valuable.

I think this discussion is great. It shows me that people still think and care about what’s going on. Way too much apathy in America today. I know some of us that have gone over have a chip on our shoulder (wife reminds me all time). When I hear a complaint about a long grocery line, or I see the biggest news of the day is some celeb is going back to rehab and they may or may not mention the 5 soldiers killed by roadside bomb. All of that sets me off. I guess my point is just because you didn’t go doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have or voice your opinion. Someone here made the uniform I wore, the bullets I shot, the food I ate, and everybody here paid me. So in some way shape or form you’re all involved and affected. Just don’t make it personal.

Man, I miss Bill.

Just a thought here.....You all do realize that you can write your congresspersons, and senators right? This would be a good start rather than just coming on a local discussion board and starting yet another arguement over all that has wronged you. These people were elected as your voice to the government. You and your neighbors elected them, if you don't like them, don't re-elect them. Enough said.

This sort of thing that is going on right here and right now is very close to what happened back in Veitnam. How would you have felt to have been treated the way that many of the soldiers were when they returned? Would you rather let the soldiers/airmen/sailors be ashamed thinking that they have faught and died for nothing? Or they watched their friends die in their hands for nothing?

Have things went perfect or even close to good??? No, they haven't. Is just pulling out the troops right here and right now the right thing to do??? That is a decision that I would rather have a vote on, instead of basically one person saying this is the way it is. Let's let the American people decide what we should do next.

You don't tell the opponent your next move.

fldpan wrote, "If the whole country is told there will be a recession. Yes there will be a recession. Why? Probably because the media got everyone worried about it, to the point where everyone becomes cautious."

I agree with you on this point.

Stewy, I understand you don't think the US should announce a date to withdraw troops. My question is why?

You may not do a surprise move by pulling out 140,000 troops. But, you don't advertise it either. I don't think they are all leaving at once either.

Stewy - what would be the consequence if the enemy knew a date we planned to be out of Iraq?

Do you think we will be able to get 140,000 troops out of the country in a surprise move?

Why would you tell the enemy when your going to leave?

crafty-no-I know you didn't say that. I meant, I was changing the wording a bit and giving the question back to you. But-maybe I'm tired, or getting confused about who thinks what in (a very few)of these posts (maybe the more friendly and civilized ones), so it almost seems as if you and I might have some similar understandings about this war. I know I don't have your first hand perspective, but, as a US citizen, how can it be I can't see and feel the affect it has had?
Do clarify for me though, you said you weren't drafted-if I'm not mistaken, no one was. On the other hand, some went to Iraq because they were already in the service and had no choice (THIS IS NOT AN OFFENSIVE REMARK-MERELY AN OBSERVATION), and some joined because we were in Iraq. Doesn't matter (to me)-I think each and every honorably serving member of the US Armed Forces is selfless and deserving of our respect.
And fldpan-no one used the word "lunatics", it was an example of how I felt those posters who are anti-war were being labeled. You should have noticed that a few here are really using unpleasant names/labels for those who don't agree with them.

Remember when the liberals sent an under equipped army into Iraq and then, when asked by a soldier why they weren't given adequate armor, the liberals said "As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

And then remember when the liberal president made jokes about not being able to find WMD's in the oval office during the White House Correspondent's Dinner while soldiers were dying looking for WMD's in Iraq.

Those liberals sure don't support the troops.

If you were asking me a question. No the news I watch does not tell me things are going good. I actually know a lot from first hand experience. The whole world thought Iraq had WMD's. Don't you remember? Maybe some of the 911 perpetrators weren't there by the time we got there, but there were A ton of terrorists. Insurgents who don't care.

If the whole country is told there will be a recession. Yes there will be a recession. Why? Probably because the media got everyone worried about it, to the point where everyone becomes cautious.
RUserious, Whatdidyousay was, at the time fighting an uphill battle. Cracker has some very good, highly respected viewpoints. So I didn't jump up and point that out. I didn't think I needed to. I answered your questions. Now, can you answer any? Quite a few have been asked...I figured "Sappy Liberals" was a fitting description. As for "other side" who said I was on a side? "Lunatics" who said that?

Agreed, Deltafox. How does that change anything? We eliminated the threat if they threatened or attacked us. Nowadays, there are people out there who think we should just sit back and watch.

RUserious, that is NOT what I said.

At what point is the government of Iraq going to be expected to step up and start taking responsibility for their future?
Where would our country be today if our founding fathers shirked their responsibilities the way the Iraqi government is. It wasn't that long ago the Iraqi government took a page from our own congress and went on vacation while everything was hitting the fan around them.

fldpan,
Those people have existed since we declared our independence and became our own country.

"Doesn't anybody remember the oil for food scandal?"
Didn't Dick Cheney's Halliburton supply the drilling equipment for that?

whatdidyouwhatever,
Funny you only comment on how I write my posts and what names I call your president, but not on the subject matter. Its cute how little attention you pay to the big details.

For the record I got out in Feb 07. After 18 years in it’s a decision I struggle with every day, be here for my wife and kids or be there for my men. Another forgotten casualty of this war is the soldier’s family. The question I have is when will it be too much (I think it already is)? Regardless of why we went in or the current state of Iraq what are the acceptable losses from this point on? What are our goals? Will the Iraqi people ever take ownership of their own lives and future? Have they ever? How many times will we rebuild an area before it is destroyed or neglected? What sits good with you another 4,000 men and women in uniform dead or is your cutoff 8,000? Are we willing to go into a huge recession (for those of you who think we aren’t on our way, WAKE UP!) or maybe into depression to finance this war? If we took all this time money and effort and did something to truly help America we’d all be driving cars that ran on our own urine. Could you imagine the financial impact on oil producing countries (you know the ones that provide the most money to terrorist organizations).

dreec - If you can't protest the war and support the troops what is an appropriate way to express dissent? Must it be expressed in some way so that the troops will never see it?

It's easy for all of us to sit back and play Monday morning quarterback and say they should have done this and they didn't do that. That being said I would have to say that with the intelligence we had and with the way Saddam was thumbing his nose at the weapons inspectors and 12 years of failed sanctions against him. We had to do something. September 11th changed how we had to act. Saddam wasn't our friend and would have attempted to do something to hurt us or our allies. He could have come clean and let the weapons inspectors do the job that they were sent in to do and let them search where they wanted to. Saddam showed them where to look. He wasn't playing by the rules. His actions spoke louder than words. An innocent person doesn't act the way he was acting. I feel that we should have taken him out the first time we were over there and finished the job. Again we had a President who was worried about poll numbers and he didn't go after Saddam. Saddam played the game with the UN and used the sanctions against him to starve his people. Doesn't anybody remember the oil for food scandal? This guy wasn't nice to his people unless you were in his army. War never goes according to plans it never will. Sure, mistakes were made and mistakes will continue to be made. We need to let the commanders on the ground do their jobs without the Monday morning quarterbacks trying to run it for them. We the American people are just products of what we read and hear from the media. Sure, some have been on the front lines and have their own views and they will differ from others as well. Freedom is contagious and once the people of Iraq grasp that concept we will have to be over there. It's unfortunate that we aren't able to battle a conventional war over there and we have to fight animals that are willing to take their own lives in order to kill many more. They don't play by the rules and it makes it much harder to win when your the only one playing by those rules.

"sappy Liberals" and "kids"? You can't have a reasonably civilized debate about our different viewpoints without resorting to that kind of thing? We disagree, we all have our reasons, but can't we express them without thinking the "other side" are lunatics? And ftdpan-you told whatdidyousay to "stay strong"-but what about Cracker-you said nothing to him. Why? Because he disagreed with you? He's going back. Again.
And dreec. I sure don't disrespect Cracker, Crafty, your spouse, or the 4000 who died. If I did, would I care whether or not we were there? No-I'd seek out a job with the formerly named Haliburton.
And Crafty, to paraphrase you, "The news you are receiving says the war is doing good, this makes it true?"
Does anyone not remember WHY Bush said we were going to Iraq in the first place? (WMD and to seek out the 9/11 perpetrators who weren't there).
I, for one, haven't said we should just take off without looking back, and leave the mess we started, but I sure do believe it needs some in depth analysis, by all sides, to determine if we are, indeed, helping, or just throwing good money after bad (companies.)
But, I firmly believe the whole thing was a mistake, and I would like to hear (friendly) views to contradict that. Don't you think some of us would love to believe we are wrong, because what's done is done, and it's a horrible feeling believing it was all a huge fiasco.

Very Well put Dreec. I agree with you 99%. We knew about planned attacks all over. Not when. Not always where. If something could have been done, it would have.
Now the Democrats are taking away our Terrorist Surveillance! That's a good idea. But it made "the stuttering shrub" mad didn't it. that's all that counts, how much we can tear down our own President. Now everyone's so mad, they're going to vote for a man with little to no experience, or accomplishments. All in the name of change. Let's elect someone who isn't a politician if we want change.

The news you are receiving says the war is doing no good, this makes it true?
When I was over there, I saw it a little different than you did Cracker. Yes the Oil companies and Halliburton are pigs. But by going over there we did make a difference to a lot of people. We got Saddam out of there, and his regime. We can't just up and leave.

Also, is it a good idea to pull out troops and leave before their elections and our own?
I'd bet you sappy Liberals didn't even read this darn article. FLD is right, let's drill for oil here. But that's not what this article is about. We are already over there, we can't change that. What we can change is when we bring them back.
When I joined the service it was my choice. I wasn't drafted.

As a spouse whose husband has served once overseas and is about to go again, I have mixed feelings and viewpoints about the war.
For those of you who have not gone and served, you should not judge what we have or have not done over there. There are many many things that we have done that just aren't told. The media does not want to talk about good things; they want to show us the bad, because that is what sells.
I don't think that we should pull out. We made this mess, now we need to clean it up. Yes, it would be nice to have more world support, but the fact is that we went in there without their support and must face the consequences. I feel that if we were to pull our troops out that we would just make a situation worse for our country.
Imagine how we, the American citizens, would feel if some other country came in here and took out Bush and our government and decided to make us communist because that is what they thought would be better for us and then they left once they had torn down our military and our government. Don't think for one minute that gangs wouldn't be what would run this country just like the insurgents are running Iraq and that we wouldn't want them (the invaders) to leave us without any sort of established order and new government.
As to the comments about the Clinton administration, we did try to counteract the attacks, but it was not covered by the media like this war has been because we didn't launch a full war. Ask some of the troops that were deployed under his administration and where they went. He did not sit back and do nothing.
I do wonder why no one has made comment as to the knowledge the US government had about the attacks on 9/11 and how they did nothing to stop them. One person stated that it was planned under the Clinton administration. If that is true, then I would think we would have had ample time to counteract the attacks, but that didn't happen.
Our government can't be everywhere at all times and sometimes bad things happen for no good reason. What we all need to do is stop complaining about the war because that isn't going to change the situation over there. If you want to do something about it, enlist in the military to do your part. If you don't want to enlist then show your support for those who are sacrificing to do what our country has sent them to do.
For those of you protesting the war, have you ever stopped to think about how your actions affect the troops that are serving and their families? You can't protest the war and support the troops. You can disagree with reasons we are there, but if you actually protest the war you are showing disrespect to the 4000+ soldiers and citizens that have lost their lives in this war.

Do you know why France, Germany, and Russia didn't join the war in Iraq? It's because they get the majority of their oil from Iraq. The U.S. only get about 3% of its oil from Iraq. We get most of our oil from Venezuela. So when people say the war was about oil, it was - for France, Germany, and Russia. There has been recent reports of fighting in South America. If we were to send troops down there, then you might be able to convince me that it's about oil.
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FYI: The oil companies make a profit of about 9 cents per gallon. The Federal tax on gas is 18 cents. The WI gas tax is 32.9 cents per gallon.

I do believe American politicians and oil company execs, are getting tremendously wealthy off this war, and it's wrong. Especially but not limited to, KBR, or Halliburton. They'll get their judgment one day...
The oil prices are higher than ever, yet we STILL can't start more drilling on US soil. Why, so we'll be the only ones with oil one day? What good will that do when all the countries who had oil are so rich they no longer need oil?
Stay strong Whatdidyousay, the kids in here have it all figured out. Deltafox, it sounds like you are pretty sure that there aren't a huge group of people out there who want us dead! The government doesn't tell us EVERYTHING, just remember that.
I believe the Liberals want another Vietnam, so they'll have a new topic to drag out.
Say the war is going nowhere. Is it really a good idea to tell them when we're leaving?

oops-I apologize for being mistaken about "Mission Accomplished"! After reading Cracker's post, I can see it has been accomplished.....for KBR (Haliburton) and their counterparts.
(note to ftdpan: I read news from several sources, and your sources?)

So nice of you RUserious, to cut and paste these nice tidbits from the Clinton News Network. If I wanted Liberally biased news I'd watch it myself!

A PX over there had a few of the “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED 2003” coffee mugs left and a couple of the guys bought one. They sent pictures home holding the mug with a thumbs up with the date stamp on the picture of June 2006.

I see KBR (up until April 2007 a part of Halliburton) made the news again. I can tell you from personal experience they are rat bastards. When I got back I did a little research after I read the news about Halliburton moving its headquarters to Dubai (talk about a slap in the face). Deaths per month and Halliburton’s avg stock price for that month: Apr 03, 74 Deaths stock price $21.41. Apr 04, 135 Deaths stock price $29.80. Apr 05, 52 Deaths stock price $41.59. Apr 06, 76 Deaths stock price $78.15. The stock split 2 for 1 shortly after that. So from March 2003 to May 2007 Halliburton’s stock had a 254% return and total deaths in that time frame was 3,422. You can say they made money in other ways but they’ve made billions from this war. “So what do we do just leave?” YES! It’s easy to say stay the course when you’re not the one having to go over. We got home Nov 06 and on deck to go back Jan 09.

"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity."
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower

We marched against the war before it began asking just what the "game-plan" was after invasion (no plan!) and we continue now. MARCH IN MARCH! Saturday March 15 - Gather at Basics parking lot 1221 Woodman Rd., Janesville at 2p.m. and march with us to the Janesville post office to commemorate the 5th anniversary of "shock and awe" in Baghdad and the beginning of the 6th year of war and occupation. Co-sponsored by Rock Co. Citizens for Peace & the Fellowship of Reconciliation

I don't think anyone would have thought that Al Queda would have put up the fight they have in Iraq. It shows you how important Iraq is to them. If it wasn't important you would think they would just high tail it to Pakistan and hide with their coward leader bin laden.

RUserious,

That mission that George W. Bush was talking about WAS accomplished. Major combat operation HAD ended. You can't have MAJOR combat operations when terrorists spread out, hide among the civilian population, start small skirmishes, suicide bombings, kidnappings.
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In case you didn't know, wars have many missions. Securing Baghdad was one mission. The hunt for Saddam was another mission.

It will never be accomplished if we just leave.

Whatdidyousay-if you had recalled properly, that mission WAS NOT accomplished-I will remind you-One of Bush's first lines in that speech was "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended." That was 5 years ago this month. Need I remind you also that, up to the point of that "Mission Accomplished" speech, "only" about 150 troops had died. Saddam was not yet captured. Since then, nearly 4000 soldiers have died, as well as countless civilians that we "saved" from this brutal man.

benthinkin
The mission was accomplished. The mission was to remove Saddam from power. The Iraqi military was destroyed. Now we are dealing with an insurgency, that is a different problem. Other foreign fighters came into the country backed by countries such as Iran and Syria to name a few. I am sure you will see it differently because to blame Bush is the agenda you want to push. Well, just wait a few months and your party will be in charge. We will see how that turns out. What exactly has the democrat controlled congress accomplished? Before the last election, they blamed Bush for higher gas prices, what have they done to lower them? So far all I have seen them try to do is defund the troops. Oh, they did raise the minimum wage, but Ms. Pelosi didn't even want that for some of the people she represents.

Hey now...wait a minute folks. There cannot be any terrorists left to try to hurt the U.S. Don't you all remember that Bush said he went into Iraq to fight terrorism and then stood on a ship and stated Mission Accomplished.
So...according to our fearless leader he got em all.

A blowhard feels the need to respond to others comments in a condescending way. You apologize to no one, yet feel the need to correct the views of other posters.

At least we have confirmation now that we can waterboard anyone we take prisoner.

We need to stop the Illegal occupation of Germany, Japan, and Italy. F.D.R. got us into that mess and we are still there.

wortnik
I apologize for nobody! What is the print definition of a blowhard? You tell me, since you are the poster child.

what did you say??

What is the print definition of a blowhard??Quit apologizing for the current administrations shortcomings

deltawhatever
By the way, who stated that being anti-war made someone pro-terrorist? Don't put words in someone elses mouth. Either confine yourself to the actuality of what was stated, or define your attempt of assumption and conjecture.

Ruserious;
Yes views can be expressed. But you are giving us someone elses views. Get my point? Instead of cut and paste, just provide the link to "supporting evidence".

deltawhatever
You don't have a clue do you? Calling the president names is what the democrats resort to when intelligence evades them. Next.

"The rest of them will come to their senses when they see another major terrorist attack in this country. Don't think for a minute it isn't coming,"
Is this wishful thinking, or do you know something we don't? Why does this line of you post make me think that nothing would make you happier?
See they attacked! I was right!! Yeeeehawww!
Besides, we are fighting "them" over there, so we don't have to fight "them" here, aren't we?

How does anti-war make you pro-terrorist? I always wonder at that. And how could changing the war effort in Iraq make terrorists want to attack our country any more than they already want to? And really, the 3am thing, stop it! The stuttering shrub doesn't stay up past 10:00, and with a bed time like that, I am sure he doesn't get bothered by any phone calls. Of course thats what he has Darth Cheney around for...

Read the headline today, this war is costing 12 billion per month. It is not worth it! I say send Bush and his cronies over there and pull the soldiers out.

Whatdidyousay-This IS a DISCUSSION AREA about this subject-I didn’t start it. Can’t views opposite yours be aired, too? (sorry about more cut & paste here-it’s easier than retyping). Whatdidyousay asked: “So people that don't share your point of view have blinders on?” That’s not what I said, I said, and I’m adding new capitalization for emphasis on the parts you obviously did not see: ” I know those who WANT TO KNOW AS MANY DETAILS, “GOOD” AND BAD, as we are allowed to know will have read this news. Those with blinders on will avoid the less than congratulatory stories about the war.” My opinion-just as legit to state as your own, don’t you think?
You mentioned something about being able to also cut and paste comments with SUSPECT points of view (you mean ones that aren’t YOURS? The ones made by other than the party of your choice?). If you don’t mind, I’ll repaste the beginning of the comment that began that post of mine that you take exception to-Please note in this quoted statement, there is an R beside one of those men quoted? Know what it means?
“...John Warner, R-Virginia, said in their Friday letter to the Government Accountability Office that Iraq has "tremendous resources" in banks worldwide but is doing little to improve security and reconstruction efforts" an effort that “has been bankrolled to this point mostly by U.S. taxpayers.”. Now remember, you brought up political parties.
Am I serious? Very-or I wouldn’t even read this stuff.

I'm glad we went into Iraq for the oil. It sure is nice filling up my diesel truck at $3.95 a gallon.

RUSerious
So people that don't share your point of view have blinders on? If you want to put things up for discussion then start your own blog. If cut and paste stories is what you want, I can flood this comment area with quotes and stories by journalists with points of view that are suspect to say the least. Not everything you read or see in the mainstream media is "true" or "factual".Your name here is ruserious, well are you really serious?

Whatdidyousay-I'm fully aware that no one NEEDS me to cut and paste the news (nor do I need you to paraphrase campaign ads for me). I know those who want to know as many details, “good” and bad, as we are allowed to know will have read this news. Those with blinders on will avoid the less than congratulatory stories about the war.
I put that up there for comment and speculation under the same story that your (war, pro/con) comments were made. I am now asking you politely, please add your comment and speculation about the news bits I copied and pasted. I would really like to hear your views.
Your name here IS whatdidyousay, isn’t it? Aren’t you really interested?

RUSerious
We don't need you to cut and paste the news for us. There are a lot of people that know what needs to be done now. The rest of them will come to their senses when they see another major terrorist attack in this country. Don't think for a minute it isn't coming, and if it comes at 3:00 am in the morning, neither one of the democrat candidates will know what to do when they answer the phone.

To add a bit more to the logic of ending the war sooner rather than later, taken from this morning’s CNN news from Bagdad, Iraq:
“Senators: “Where is Iraq's oil money going?””
“Carl Levin, D-Michigan, and John Warner, R-Virginia, said in their Friday letter to the Government Accountability Office that Iraq has "tremendous resources" in banks worldwide but is doing little to improve security and reconstruction efforts" an effort that “has been bankrolled to this point mostly by U.S. taxpayers.”......” "We believe that it has been overwhelmingly U.S. taxpayer money that has funded Iraq reconstruction over the last five years, despite Iraq earning billions of dollars in oil revenue over that time period that have ended up in non-Iraqi banks,"
“The senators cited testimony of then-Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz who told a House subcommittee in March 2003 that the U.S. would not foot the entire bill for rebuilding Iraq. Wolfowitz predicted then that Iraq's oil revenues could reach between $50 billion and $100 billion in the next two or three years.” "We are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon," Wolfowitz said in 2003.”
We were given the “promise” that “Iraq's ability to spend its $10.1 billion capital projects budget in 2007 was one of the 18 benchmarks used to assess U.S. progress in stabilizing and rebuilding Iraq...”
but yet—
“Using numbers from the U.S. State Department and Iraqi Oil Ministry, the senators said Iraq hopes to produce 2.2 million barrels of oil a day this year. Weekly averages suggest that the number has climbed as high as 2.51 million barrels a day. That kind of oil production could earn Iraq a projected $56.4 billion this year, an estimate the senators say is low given the rising cost of crude.”
Where’s it going, folks? Are the Iraqi civilians (the ones still living) any better off?
In addition: “Dozens of U.S. troops in Iraq fell sick at bases using "unmonitored and potentially unsafe" water supplied by the military and a contractor “once” owned by Vice President Dick Cheney's former company, the Pentagon's internal watchdog says. The KBR sites were Camp Ar Ramadi, Camp Q-West and Camp Victory. The military sites were Logistics Support Area Anaconda and Camp Ali. KBR provided water treatment to U.S. troops under a large-scale defense contract that also included housing and food to soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Djbouti and Georgia.”
There were many, many cases of poorly maintained services, resulting in many illnesses, provided by the US Goverment, in particular through this company “once owned” by OUR Vice-President, a company getting richer and richer off the backs of these very soldiers that some say anti-war people are disrespecting. But tell me, who wants them home safe, and who doesn’t give a d***?

Now that's putting it in the perspective it deserves, deltafox. Do we no longer have the freedom to say that we now are backing our president NOT because his original plan had merit, but because he made a mess, and it is our duty to rectify his errors? Of course we should, generally speaking, be behind our president, but can't there be some limits, and personal opinion (even input) in our "free" country? Does everyone have to be like lemmings or take the risk of being called UnAmerican? Everyone should read what Cracker said, multiply it by the thousands of similar stories, and at least give it some consideration as first hand knowledge. Especially those who say people with our/your (deltafox) viewpoint are anti-troop/anti-American. They, of course, would have to say that this soldier/hero (Cracker and those like him) is also anti-troop/anti-American because he is also apparently anti-war.
The question is, where should it end, how low should our country get, and how many people should yet be put at risk before we can, in good conscience, allow it to be over?

I get sick of both sides. I hate the war, but I feel like since we made the mess, we need to clean it up. Having a Saigon style pull out with Iraqis falling off departing choppers is not what I want to see. But, if we are going to make it right as a country, we need to all sacrifice to make this happen. Current and former commanders biggest complaint was the lack of man power. If pRes Shrub really cared, he would have sent in 350,000+ troops and done Iraq right. But instead we sent 120,000 troops and 110,000 hired contractors (read Halliburton). It is easy to have hind sight to say what we did or didn't do right, but "Stay the course" and "Cut and run" don't cut it either. Our country is going broke supporting this thing, the region is the most unstable it has ever been, so what are our leaders going to do to make it right? What we are doing now is arguing the past, instead of planning the future. If analysts say we need 400,000+ troops to rebuild Iraq, then we gotta buckle down and do whats right. Stay the Course, not working... Cut and Run, destabilizes the whole region even worse and Iran gets more followers and more property, besides how unmoral it would be to kick down someone's sandcastle then run away with out helping rebuild it? To answer the question of what would make me happy? A solid plan, with tangible goals, and yes a timetable, of how we are going to restore Iraq. The Iraq war is a direct consequence to a poorly managed situation, we need new management. The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing every time and expecting a different outcome. This war is insane!

Again; for eight years EVERYTHING Bush has tried to do in Iraq has been crapped on by the Democrats. OF COURSE PEOPLE THINK NOTHING GOT DONE! There was absolutely no cooperation!

When will you all be happy? Let's start there. Can you even answer that question?

Cracker- Thank-you for your service. And to all veterans that may read this Thank-you.

Cracker,
You are a hero. Thank you for your post. It was very enlightening.

Cracker, thanks for a non scipted review of the situation. You did not push politics, or party preference, nor for that matter express it as anything more than your opinion.
NO agenda, just facts.
Thanks for all you've done for us.

Cracker wrote: "So if you see a guy walking around with this tat on his back say hello!!"
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My response to Cracker is, first and foremost, thank you for your service to our country. It is greatly appreciated by more than you know.
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Secondly, thank you for sharing your perception of the situation that unfortunately is a dividing point in our country. I just wish everyone could understand the concept of supporting our troops while questioning the underlying politics.
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Thirdly,Don't need any tats. Any serviceman or woman has my respect, admiration, and thanks regardless of any politics.
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Thank You.

There a valid comments on both sides of the argument. Never forget that there are groups that want nothing more than to kill us, our children, and our way of life. The war currently going on in Iraq will do nothing to stop the