How's this for an idea, while all the religious kids are praying, why don't reasonable and rational parents ask their kids to do their home-work?

billenwbie
I can understand your frustration. Believe me. The truth is, many people have not interest in seeking the right info. that would lead them to the truth. Unfortunately, we live in a society that ignores it's history and denies it and thus, we wind up repeating things that shouldn't be repeated. People of character, which I believe you are, lead by example and let that do their talking. It's been a long known fact that many of the modern age intellects wouldn't accept truth anyway if it hit them in the face because it wouldn't serve their own personal agendas. They have their own version of truth and that's all that counts for them. It's called self serving. I'm not judging anyone here, but, those people do exist out there.

It has become clear that the only thing that will satisfy you is for me to join you as an alter boy at the cathedral of St. Charles the Galapagosian. Not in my lifetime.
It is also evident that you will not cease until you have convinced the world that Christianity in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, is the consummate evil in the world. I myself take issue with much of what the Catholic Church stands for, but I know they don’t stand for child rape, in spite of the criminal actions of some of their clergy. I can see why you have become so frustrated that you have been reduced to repeating your statements ad nauseum. Those are tough sells, particularly with me. How do you like my focus, now?

Are the keys on your keyboard stuck, or is that all you have left?

Try to focus.

Spare me you lessons, I won't be taking any from you.
Is that last statement an excuse for why you won't offer any proof? Let the proof speak for itself. But then, you would have to have access to some, and as we've seen, you don't.
If I’m so indolent, why have I taken so much time and effort with you? Never mind, for you to answer that question would require a fair assessment and it is clear that is something you have no talent for.

billnewbie, try to focus.

You claimed that the word "theory" in the term Theory of Evolution meant that evolution is not true and established. Then you posted various definitions of the word "theory" and you chose the one that meant speculation as the meaning of the word "theory" in the term Theory of Evolution. You ignored the definition that explains that the word "theory" is used in another way in science and in the term Theory of Evolution: This definition describes "theory" as the word used to identify a scientific development that is observably true and repeatedly testable.

This indolence on your part is proof that you cannot or will not effectively deal with proof.

billnewbie, when the stink of the criminality radiates upward or is at the top by way of internal promotion, that's institutionalization.

Too many out there like to creat the stigmas for others. What the priests have done is not acceptable and not becoming of a Christian! Yet, many Christians choose to live by the principles that Christianity calls for. Same as many other religions. Just because the radical Muslims choose to play judge and jury and destroy anyone who is different, doesn't make Muslims bad. Infact, Muslim faith is a very noble, principled faith with great values. Just because a person who is black, white, Chinese, short or tall commits a crime, doesn't label other people of the same color or body! You don't have to be of a religious group or anything like that to live right! Live and let live and let the judging be up to "their" creator! I believe in my heart who my creator is and I live my life through him, what others choose, I respect that. We can all live together and look after one another without being of the same religion! It's called community!

Gazettefan:
You have a remarkable talent for calling defeat victory. Definitions of words are not proof. Those who assert that proof exists must either produce it or retract their assertion. You do neither. Regardless of what you claim to have accomplished, in my view you have only accomplished the establishment of your own unreasonableness.

Ihavealife:
I contend that the claim that the Catholic Church has institutionalized child rape is irrational and irresponsible. The perverts who raped those children should be hung, the hierarchy that covered up that contemptible activity belong in jail, but to claim the church approves such behavior is nonsense. Such a claim leads me to believe that those who make it have a purpose in mind that has nothing to do with holding the church accountable for the offenses of its priests, but instead has to do with some other anti-religious agenda. Those bishops and archbishops should have considered the ammunition they were giving the anti-religious when they played their disgusting shell game. Instead all they considered was their own humiliation and moved the perverts to avoid same.

Clouds555 and timsmom69- I've been thinking about your statements that organized religion is a cult. It's a bold and audacious statement that is ignorant of the facts of what a cult is (not to mention also condescending and rude). I once took a class in college on cults which was very informative. Cults display some very common characteristics and have some and usually all of the following characteristics. 1) Aberrant teaching that departs from orthodoxy. 2) A charismatic leader to whom the followers must give their full allegiance. 3) A period of indoctrination called "love bombing" where the new member made to feel loved by constant affirmation. 4) There is then a period of brainwashing in which the new member goes without sleep for a long period of time in which that are continually bombarded by the teachings of the cult. 5) They are isolated from society and from family members, whom they are told are evil and must cut off all forms of communication. 6) They must give ALL their possessions to the group or leader therefore becoming completely dependent on the cult for food and shelter. 7) There loyalty is to the point of death which sadly can happen as we've seen in such examples and Peoples Temple, the Branch Davidians in Waco and the followers of Marshall Applewhite who perished trying to hitch a ride on the Hale-Bop comet. To make such a statement that organized religion is a cult diminishes the harm that real cults cause. It makes one wonder if the people who make such irresponsible statements are drinking some sort of Kool-aid themselves.

bibledude...Yes I agree with you.Not that it should mean anything,but they thought because we were a GM family they hit pay dirt.They went as far as to say a $ amount.(50 hrs a week because at that time the plant was working alot of over time.As I said families were put on the spot and told that God had blessed them with the new addition and it was their responsibility to honor what he had given them.Some believe if they don't give they are not good Christians and to me that's what happened to alot of those families.We were all told to give up our new cars and big houses the money that we were going to use on that vacation that we didn't need to take etc.because that's what God wanted us to do,so His house could grow.Those kind of people to me are just sunday Christians,and have no reguards on what their actions do to others.

billnewbie..I may be opening a can of worms for myself,but here it goes.My take on the comments about the Catholics thinking children being raped is acceptable is this.When you hear of the adults that have come forward that been sexually assaulted as children and are told how sorry the chruch is because the Father promised he wouldn't do it again and he had. My question to you would be ,Should that person had been turned over to the police in the first place or just moved to another church.I'm sure you will say police.I don't know what the Catholic chruch does now,but in the past they have just moved the Father to another,so in a way they did accept that behavior.He was accused of a horrible act against a child and should of been stopped right then,not 20-30 years later with who knows how many other victims.I also believe this isn't just within the Catholic church it can/does happen in every walk of life.

Oh, yeah, billnewbie, sure church documents are required to prove that child rape is acceptable in the Catholic Church!!! Why would that be? A practice does not always come with documentation. It is known that priests have been shuffled around to other parishes for the protection of the Church and not the children (Child rapists are incorrigible and the church hierarchicy knows this). This is what's known as a constructive edict. Just as the law recognizes constructive contracts, contracts not based on written documents. One of the principals said: We'll police our own.

Shuffling rapist priests around to other parishes is de facto evidence that child rape is acceptable. Shuffling a priest to another parish only means: It's okay, just don't get caught by the outside world. Does this explanation clear anything up for you?

I accomplished what I set out to do with you and the others when you posted all the different definitions for the word "theory." In reference to the Theory of Evolution you wrongly and blatantly chose the definition that doesn't apply. That's what you do with proof. You deny that it's there.

Also, this site is the private property of the Gazette. The Gazette can dump me anytime for any reason. Keep a good thought.

clouds555- According to Gallup more than 40% of Americans claim to attend church or synagogue regularly, and only about 15% say they never attend. So by your definition of a cult are almost half of Americans in a cult?

Hi ihavealife-I agree with you I wouldn't go to a church like that either. Nothing like that has happened at our church. Everyone is treated the same regardless of how much they give and their giving is a private matter. That's the way it should be.

clouds555-"I don't go around preaching my view" He said as he preached his view.

Gazettefan:
So you are that irrational! I just thought you were making absurd statements for their effect, my mistake.
The term “gloat” is a mischaracterization of what I wrote. As far as how a Christian should behave, I would not be inclined to adopt your standards. You should, however beware of the GazetteXtra’s standards, considering how condescending you have become of late.
There is no proof of creationism, only evidence. Just as there is no proof of evolution, as you claimed when you wrote “evolution has been proven time and time again”. When you made this outrageous statement I challenged you to produce this proof, instead you claim that I made a similarly outrageous statement (which I did not (guess I have to prove that too)) which I couldn’t back up which is a complete obfuscation on your part to avoid my challenge. And now you do it again while repeating your irrational charge against that church. That’s not how it works, you know. If you claim something to be true, or proven, the burden is on you to provide proof. To challenge those of us who find your statements to be incredulous to prove them false is nonsense. I now anxiously await references to Catholic Church documents establishing child rape as an acceptable practice for Catholics. Somehow I think that I will be waiting a very long time indeed.

bibledude...I found your 3:09 pm post kinda funny.We WERE going to a church in town that from day one made me feel uneasy.After asking our names the next question was where do you work ?? I can't go as far and say that all asked that question ,but it would be safe to say 90% did.The church had just added on and they were having all their members sign a contract that they would give 10% of their wages every week.When we didn't/wouldn't sign that paper my husband was told we had to. Within a matter of a few months alot of the members had fallen behind on their payments so all were asked to resign new ones,and to make sure this time they could afford it because it would not be changed again.We never did sign it and was treated differently after that.We were never members of that church,we also didn't find the need to be interviewed by the church deacons to see if we would be GOOD members.(their words not mine)The last straw for my husband and myself was when in the adult sunday school they found the need to explain or tell us how to satisfy our spouses.My husband did get up and leave,I stayed .When it was over and i walked out I knew he was mad about something.We got our kids and left.My husband couldn't believe that I didn't say anything,after all I can be very outspoken.My point to you on all of this is ,we can all have our opinions on what is right and wrong .gazettefan does make a lot of good points on what has been swept under the rug for way too long.He says what most people just think of saying !! JMO !

Look how we squabble over a simple “day of prayer”....and I think 59 of the 60 comments are from those who believe they followers of christ.... lets injected more “faith based” policies into government into the mix! That will help..NOT! This is why I changed from not supporting FFR to mostly supporting their views. That this is not a big world, but a small one, and the only one we have, We need to make room for all to belong.

billnewbie:

When a child rapist priest is shuffled off to another parish, where he can choose from a fresh flock of boys, for the sole purpose of protecting the church, that's institutionalized child rape. As a matter of fact, it's organized crime. (I'll be generous right now and not claim that the child rapist priest is sent to a new parish for the sole purpose of having new victims.) Shock value?! You should be shocked, but you are not. Why?!

I never addressed the woman who's been posting here but you and bibledude did. If she went over the line, she went over the line. How christian of you to gloat! I wish her well. And it looks like you and bibledude are howling at the moon while my posts still make some sense. Have another look.

The burden of proof for creationism is on you, and you failed to come through. The burden of proof that the church hasn't institutionalized child rape is also also on you. Good luck.

The original definition of Seperation of Church and State was based on protecting the local churches from a government sponsored national church! This seperation has been turned upside down to mean separation of any religious values from the state! The further this country wanders from religious values the closer we get to chaos! It was set up to keep the state out of the church, not keep the values out of the state.

It looks as though timsmom69 has fallen into the abyss.
Gazettefan should watch so that he doesn't get too close to that edge, too. Do you really think that the Catholic Church has institutionalized child rape? Not even you are so irrational as to believe something that absurd. You make such statements for their shock value without regard to their accuracy. Timsmom69 favored shock-value statements as well, she was just a little more course, but no less disrespectful than you. We wouldn’t want your unreasoned and self-appreciating wit to cease to exist as has hers, so be cautious.
Those last few posts with timsmom69’s text removed make Gazettefan look like he’s conversing with the supernatural, or maybe he’s had an epiphany since I didn’t actually see any posts from timsmom69 today. I realize that’s not very likely, yet stronger atheists than he have had one, so hope does spring eternal.

Timsmom69-Sounds like an honest answer, thank you. Do they get offended? Interesting, at our church last week the minister told the congregation "any church that tells you what to do and demands you to follow blindly is a cult."

Yes, good use of the subordinate clause, good to take turns with that!!!

Good idea. I don't even care about the political opinions of the people who agree with me, let alone those who don't agree with me.

He was upset about the talk of the subjunctive and he wanted to divert.

bibledude was looking for a different answer. Too bad!!!

timsmom69- You say organized religion is a cult. Do you have any co-workers, family or friends who attend church? Would you tell them to their face they are cult members? just curious.

Yes, best used with the subjunctive.

timsmom69...got any other, ummm, quirks?...we might want to know about?
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And no...quirks is not my first choice of words, but I figure the staff may object to my first choice.

User of big words, literally a foot-and-half long.

Sesquipedalian

janesvillecomments, be careful there's so many of those low-lifes out there some innocent bystanders might get hurt.

SarahB is that you doing that? I thought it was rash.

I'm praying for all of you --- whether you like it or not. So, there!!

Here's a compromise on this topic:

Dear God (Jehovah, Allah, Vishnu, Odin, Zeus... whatever),
Today we beseech you to please send a bolt of lightning straight up the wazoo of every lying, thieving, immoral, earmark-marking, campaign bribe-taking, unfaithful, campaign promise-breaking, porkbarreling, two-faced politician who is using the National Day of Prayer to ameliorate their petty, hypocritical, and sanctimonious political reputation.

Amen.

MrScott, by definition, to be religious requires that a person believe in the supernatural. To believe in something that doesn't exist says something profound about a persons credibility and respect for the truth. Your odd belief is why you people have such a problem with the Theory of Evolution. It's also why you believe you have a sound basis for something like RLUIPA.

Pudssweetie...I'm sorry...did I say anything that made it sound like I thought we DO need any of those days? I'd actually like to know why we need any of those days you mentioned, and many more on top of a day of prayer. I didn't mention those others only trying to keep this line of debate/discussion a little more clearly defined.
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However, now that you bring it up, why DO we need all of these "national day of (fill in the blank)"? I understand that there is usually minimum cost to me for them, but that doesn't mean that there is NO cost to me and other taxpayers.

And don't cause and allow the institutionalization of child rape as the Catholic Church does.

MrScott and JohnDoe, I'm still thinking about my slam and tirade; there's so much to choose from. You two are kind of indicating that you're into it.

Yes, if people want to organize in groups and call it a religion, go ahead, but don't defray the costs to us.

i dont go to church or pray, i dont want to pick a religion, cuz what if im wrong and i waste all that time believing in the WRONG god?? i believe if you are a good person and live a good life, whos ever god is waiting there at the end probably isnt gonna turn you away, i mean that wouldnt be very holy. i do think there is absolutely no harm in a national day of prayer. if you dont want to pray, dont whine about it, bow your head and think about the soldiers, or your family, or the brewers, or pot, or whatever passes yo time....

Why don't folks seem to get it? Our country allows any citizen to join any religion and subscribe to it's tenants totally. All the constitution says is, the government is to remain religion neutral. Not support one over the other, not support prayer generally or in schools. Simply let the people do what they want where religion is concerned. Lately there is a huge push to involve Christianity in our government. It just isn't right or perhaps too far right :)

God's Word . . . presents a different definition of success - one centered on a relationship with Jesus Christ and a love for God that allows us to love and serve others. God gives each one of us unique gifts, abilities and passions. How well we use those qualities to have an impact on the world around us determines how "successful" we really are."

Madman 1961 you asked why we need a National Day of Prayer, I am going to ask you this. Why do we need a Martin Luther day, National Night Out, Day of Silence, Gay Pride Day?
National Day of Prayer is the one and only day of the year that ALL religions can do something together as one and put differences aside.

JohnDoe, this is where gazettefan begins his tirade against any organized faith in general. Though it appears he enjoys bashing Christianity more than any other faith. Don't worry, you're not the only one sitting back rolling your eyes.

No, I'm just saying that if you don't believe in a higher power, don't participate or pray to yourself. If you're referring to my definition of religion, look it up. Religion is anything you believe with ardent fervor be it there is a God or no God. It all depends on your personal view. Many Christians don't view their faith as a religion, but a relationship.

Is this the point where gazettefan enters with his personal diatribe against the Cathloic Church?

MrScott, are saying that the supernatural has no place in religion? and that religion is just the same as atheism?

But will someone explain to me why we need a "national day of prayer"? Don't the lawmakers that we sent to Washington have anything better to do than this? Oh, yeah...besides voting on a nearly TRILLION dollar bailout. That's kinda like a billion, but with a T.
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Seems to me that if you want to pray, you pray. If you don't, then, ummm, let's see...oh, yeah...DON'T. Easy as pie.
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Reminds me of when we were told that children couldn't pray in school and some were at least threatened with suspension. I don't recall if I ever heard of someone actually being suspended, tho.
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Think about it...if you are a teacher and you hand out a pop quiz...Little Johnny or Janey closes his/her eyes for a moment and you have to decide if it's a pray they are mumbling under their breath or a curse upon teachers for this pop quiz.
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Pray...don't pray. Makes no difference to me. If you believe that it works, have fun with it. But why does anyone think that we need a "national day of prayer"???

If you religious/superstitious people stepped back and took a good look at the dwindling chronology of your "beliefs" in history, you will see that soon all of you will be relegated to the same status as those people whose men wear flood plants, have bad facial hair, and will help you build a barn for the low low price of a glass of lemonade.

petcat, it seems you don't believe in prayer. I have had experiences with prayer, healing and prayers being answered in other ways so I KNOW prayer works. I personally don't feel threatened by other "National Day of....." whatever. I think it's great we have the diversity in this country. As far as a day of praying, we should be praying everyday, as much as we can anyway but to have many praying at once is very powerful. I agree with, if you don't like it, don't participate. This country tries too hard to please everyone and that's one of the reasons it's going down hill with it's principles. I say, pray for this whole situation.

I agree, mymaro, the participants should not interfere with others lives by making their private practice a public proclamation.
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Or did you mean it the other way?

A persons belief or non-belief doesnot prevent one from belonging, it is ones lack of respect for a persons belief or non-belief that prevents a person or persons from belonging. Also, could someone tell me what religion the government has established? When was it established and by who? Should we have a proclamation for a day of Atheism? I'm not trying to be funny here but with all this PC stuff going on and being afraid to offend we have become a nation of (please be free to use your own description here).

dont these freaks have anything better to do with there pathetic little lives?

Just because there is a day of prayer, does not mean everyone has to partake. I might not participate in "national walking day" or "national take your child to work day" but that doesn't mean I'm going to sue someone. Dang sue happy society. If you don't like it, just don't do it...simple as that.

Wow, thats sad.

Ignore, ignore, ignore. All I want is "Freedom from Gaylor's Ugly Face".

""offical proclamation of day of prayer" = endorment of belief in god..or GOD."
That's crap. I could be praying to my flower garden out back. And by the way, the constitution prohibits the establishment of a religion, not an endorsement.

I would rather live like there is a GOD and find out there isnt one than live like there isnt a GOD and find out there is
B

wow. what a bunch of looneys!!!!!!!! Freaks!

As I stated before, atheism is just as much "religion" as any well-recognized faiths. By definition this is what religion is...
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a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor.
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That being said FFRF is just as "religious" as any faith based group. There are a lot of things in this country people don't agree with or that makes them a minority. The way the constitution is written, there is NOTHING illegal about the national day of prayer as it incorporates ALL faiths and religions. As i said, if you aren't part of an organized faith or religion, pray to yourself.

UNDER GOD was added in the 1950's NEVER part of the origianal text
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm
NOW it is a prayer.

MR SCOTT.. it isolates members of our country from belief in belonging .. a major requirement of a peaceful society. those who belong work together, those that dont, work against

"offical proclamation of day of prayer" = endorment of belief in god..or GOD.... i.e. religion,, and if anyones wondering, our family attends church most sundays and volunteer with services several times a year.

A national day of prayer has NOTHING to do with stoning, or burning witches or having a religious entity run the country. It invites ALL faiths to pray for the country, our military, it's leaders, etc. on the same day. Wow, ONE day out of the year, I guess you better watch out because that one day of prayer might make religion take over the government. Let's not forget, out nation was founded with a prayer and the words "Under God".

OUR Founding Father knew why we had to check religion at the door when i came to government. Remeber '100 years' war? In the early 1700s america, one could lose his land and more just for not showing up at church, or being the wrong type of protestant. Puritans sentanced people to STONING! Anyone remember Witch burning? But hay, some want the church to lead this country! (who's church?)That would be great! just like IRAN! I know Anne's mom, Ann Gaylor and why she picked Freedom from religion.. i wish it was "Freedom oF" i think more of us could handle that.. btw, many church leaders are members of her group, because they understand that when you combine church AND government, both are corrupted/co-op'ed by the other.
thanks

These same wackos tried to challenge the Presidents faith based initiative but lost after the supreme court blocked the lawsuit. I'm glad we have groups like the American Center for Law and Justice, and Liberty Counsel. If you ever feel your religious liberties are under attack, i suggest checkout out one of those two groups. Both employ attorneys highly trained in protecting religious liberties and usually work for free as they are funded by donations.

mmm, no, the constitution doesn't prohibit the government from endorsing religion, it prohibits the government from making a law respecting an establishment of religion. If they so choose, people can pray to themselves as their own god (and there's a lot of that today). Atheism has become just as much of a religion as any well-known faith.