http://cnsnews.com/news/article/seiu-loc...

I have spent about 2 hours going over this debate and I have come up with a conclusion gliver18 your nothing but a liberal aigbag. You b****ed about RAB having over 3000 post how many do you have now.

MrData, the market's up over 20% since Obama took office, thus I'm already more than 20% richer. Why should I care about the 40% of Americans who pay no income tax (if that's actually true) so long as I'm getting richer under that policy? As far as I can tell, those 40% of Americans are huge consumers of products that the companies I own stock in sell. So I say let them keep that tax money so they can contribute to my portfolio.

So you want to be a futurerichguy -- good luck. You won't achieve in this nation with the belief principles you have. We are becoming the nation of ME, MYSELF, & I. TOO many Americans DO NOT pay their FAIR share of income taxes - in fact, over 40% of American workers today pay NO income tax. But the same people do not hestitate to look to OTHERS to pay for anything they want -- such as, their health care, their kids education, their automobiles, their home mortgages, or everything else they want, but really cannot afford.

So these Americans play the sympathy card and goad opponents into feeling sorry for them. They call their fellow citizens who work hard for their money cold hearted, enman spirited conservatives. Then they label us racists! Your remarks about us are very insulting. Why should we give you anything? You're biting the hand that feeds you - even a stupid dog knows not to do that. You're all TAKERS, leeches & blood suckers preying upon the American taxpayer. You're actions are saying to HELL with all of you who work hard and strive to make a better life for yourselves your children. And to HELL with all of your kids, grandkids, and their grandkids. I want your tax money now!

It's akin to reverse slavery. Those of us who have struggled all our life working hard to EARN our way out of poverty are now being dragged back into by poverty by the socialist democrat political movement that demands everyone has an EQUAL piece of the pie, whether they deserve it, or not.

Not even the almighty democrats can create more wealth in our country by simply dividing what wealthj there is amongst more people. Some day they'll learn they need to CREATE MORE job opportunities so that more people can WORK, just like those of us who oppose all this socialism, which will create MORE wealth for this country. That is the only way our nation and its people will progress forward.

Right now our nation's unfunded entitlement programs exceed 50 TRILLION dollars. Hey Mr futurerichguy -- How much more debt are you willing to heap on? And WHO will pay all this debt off and when will that be done?

MrData, I hope you don't believe your t-bag independence mentality is actually original. It's a classic defense mechanism in political debate. When someone can no longer defend the political party they support, they claim independence. Also, it should be noted, that swing voters are typically way below the curve on issue comprehension. Thanks though for lumping me in with Andre Linoge as one of the 3 stooges.

There are some people in this world, gliver18, andre-linoge, futurerichguy, etc who are comopletely blinded by the falsehoods of their political party loyalties. Presenting to them information on the errors of their ways just goes in one ear on their empty craniums and right out their other ear.

It becomes an exercise in futility -- since these types of people choose to ignore the facts about our President's habit of irresponsible and extensive spending of our valuable tax dollars.

All I can say to these three stooges - Moe-Larry&Curly - is I hope you and all your goofy
poltiical party dispiples come to your senses before you all bankrupt this nation ...

"They can also tax for it, but no where does it give power to fine for not participating."
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The "fine" is actually an income tax issue, handled by the IRS. It's merely referred to as a "fine" or "penalty" as it's more palatable than "tax."

If you take a read through the constitution and look at congress' powers they have the power to address the public good. They can also tax for it, but no where does it give power to fine for not participating. That is just not allowed unless your someone like a powerful president who does not care about our constitution whether it is Bush or Obama.

Condescending? That usually only happens when you have a false sense of superiority.

That's why we work to control excessive GREED, or maybe better described as some form of gluttony. Said to be one of the seven deadly sins.

Greed is a great motivator. It is the reason people work, their "greed" to make an income to support a life style.

benthinkin thats correct but that same factor applies to the past also and the math is correct and factual and in the History Books. Ben, I am not trying to be condescending but as I have said before and to be redundant, a certain % of Socialism has been here every since the birth of our country.In my opinion, I think 100% socialism is wrong as that would be communism. But is it not some percentage by definition (socialism) when we levy taxes (all together and one for all) to build roads, schools,Armies, Navies, Parks, infrastructures of our towns & cities, states and fed Government. So you see these are helpful policies for America and our citizens. Throw in a good dose of capitalism with that little bit of socialism and we have a great system to live with but I would caution that you have to have some forms of regulation to control the greed of some at the expense of others. Profit yes but greed no

Fancy math, however not real. You forgot to take into effect future cost of current decision like you did with the interest on the debt.

mrdata in clarification, I am going to be kind here and not call you stupid, ignorant,dumb or an idiot, I apologize for thinking of that possibility. It occurred to me that you just might be a very slow learner. Lets analyze your post on 4/09/2010 at 1:13P.M. Finally gliver18 gets it when he says ..."I wonder if most people don't realize that the national debt is a little over 12 trillion dollars as of march 2010. That the cumulative national debt that Presidents (Ford,Reagan, Bush 1&2,) accounted for over 9 trillion dollars of that debt. That means almost 75% of our national debt was caused by the irresponsibility of the Republican Presidents and their supporters."
THE PRECEDING QUOTES BY GLIVER18 ARE CORRECT
I will attempt to slow down here so that the following quotes misinterpreted by you might become more clear.------------------------ "gliver18 admits in writing that in just 14 short months Mr. Obama has already created 3 TRILLION dollars of debt -- 33% of the 9 TRILLION dollars total debt amount created by 4 GOP presidents over 24 (TWENTY-FOUR!) years in office.
Jeez, how can anyone not be completely concerned about the wreckless spending of Obama. call it socialism, call it liberalism, call it wreckless --- whatever it is we all know it is completely irresponsible! None of us, not even gliver18 would run our home budgets in that manner".-------- CLARIFICATION-----NOW (mrdata) FOR SLOW LEARNERS PAY CLOSE ATTN: Pres Carter added 276.6 Billion to the accumulated 654 Billion Dollar National Debt that he inherited from Ford and Pres Clinton added 1.5 Trillion Dollars to the accumulated 4.2 Trillion National Debt, he inherited from Reagan-Bush(1). NationalDebt now stands at 5.67 Trillion, add Bush(2) 5 Trillion and National Debt is now approx 10.7 Trillion Dollars. Pres Obama inherits Bush accumulated 10.7 Trillion N Debt. Now as I said before, 9T of 12.3T is 75% Republican FAULT. Subtract accumulative Pres CLINTON & CARTER's (1.7T)from remaining 3T leaves Pres Obama with 1.3T. just the interest payback alone of 10.7 Trillion (other Pres's faults) costs 600 billion dollars. So in reality Obama has by his own policy responsible for 700 Billion dollars to the National Debt. Thanks for coming to school and we have tutors to help you slow learners.

Discuss whatever you wish related to this, the fact remains this is the 1st time that I am aware of that I am required to purchase a product or service simply because I am an american citizen, or I will be fined. Take a guess what will happen if I don't pay the fine.

Paying taxes or user fees on income, passports, driver licenses etc. all start with the choice I make to take an action of some sort. This requirement is happening solely because I am an american.

...and it is happening in the "good for the people" commentary. That folks is the start of a slippery slope that we are already on called socialism.

Interesting talk on Libs vs Cons.

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/341

MrData, you do realize that Clinton was running a surplus when he handed over the reigns to GW, right? Maybe that's why gliver18 left him out. Also, Obama has been running up the debt as you say, but he was given a budget far in the red the day he stepped in, not to mention 2 foreign wars that he still has to pay for. Sure he could do better, but give me a break, he's been in office for 15 months. If he turns the budget around by 2012 it'll be a miracle, but he'll deserve 100% of the credit.

thekai says .. "You keep bringing up that there is a difference between option/choice and mandate. However, you seem to be insisting that nothing else is mandated. In truth, several things are mandated. Since I went with a toaster fire before, I'll bring up smoke detectors. If you don't have smoke detectors in your house, you can get a fine. The fire marshall can't just walk into your house though, so you do still sort of have a choice of whether or not to put them in. .."

Come on people -- this is NOT an example of a mandate. No more so than the fact we need a passport or a drivers license or have to register our weapons.

The reason why these are NOT mandates is because I can chose to rent & not own a home. the the fire detector alarm is the responsibility of the landlord. I can CHOOSE not to drive or own a gun or travel abroad and threfofe I ddo not have to obtain a passport, a drivers license or a weapons permit.

BUT with health care insurance I have no choice -- WE ALL have to buy insurance and worse yet, the government will tell US ALL what type of health care insurance coverage we ALL must carry. If we do not -- then we will be taxed, fined, imprsioned or aall three.

That is a mandate and we have never had anything like this before in our nation's history.

Finally gliver18 gets it when he says ..."I wonder if most people don't realize that the national debt is a little over 12 trillion dollars as of march 2010. That the cumulative national debt that Presidents (Ford,Reagan, Bush 1&2,) accounted for over 9 trillion dollars of that debt. That means almost 75% of our national debt was caused by the irresponsibility of the Republican Presidents and their supporters."

For some reason gliver18 ignores the Carter and Clinton years, 'm sure it was intentional, but that's OK.

gliver18 admits in writing that in just 14 short months Mr. Obama has already created 3 TRILLION dollars of debt -- 33% of the 9 TRILLION dollars total debt amount created by 4 GOP presidents over 24 (TWENTY-FOUR!) years in office.

Jeez, how can anyone not be completely concerned about the wreckless spending of Obama. call it socialism, call it liberalism, call it wreckless --- whatever it is we all know it is completely irresponsible! None of us, not even gliver18 would run our home budgets in that manner.

Futurerichguy, I have addressed the issue of my benefits with you already. I pay more in federal taxes than I receive in any benefits, I also purchase my own health coverage through my employer (my choice).

If you want to think you are subsidizing me dream away.

We happened to agree on the personal use of marijuana and more; my view is consistent on this, any law protecting you from yourself is bad legislation.

To the issue of safety, as I said laws protecting people from others are in my view sensible, this would include product safety to some degree; the prospect of purchasing products, which have safety in mind or not, are still a choice not a mandate. As to the issue brought up over septic systems, protecting others water supply falls under protecting you from others.

The issue you arise on property taxes is still a choice, you don’t have to purchase home if you don’t want too.

Your analogy of mandates using a smoke detector is nothing close to healthcare. Building codes are relevant, again protecting you from someone else; in this case poor workmanship.

I agree that accepting this change is indeed an obstacle. The system you disparage has many issues that need fixing, I agree. I am in favor of preventing exclusions for pre-existing conditions, mandatory price posting before treatments, health savings accounts, and insurance shopping based on consumer wants. What I have always been against is politicians thinking they know what is best, in respect of personal choices/decisions and people not accepting personal responsibility for their own actions. The current system is full of waste and bloat and costing billions through Medicare waste. These issues could have been addressed and supported by many more without removing choice from our nation’s citizens.

You brought it up when I questioned your original comments, perspective. I am neither an optimist nor pessimist, I am a realist. My perspective sees this law as an intrusion on personal choice and erosion of freedom.

You keep bringing up that there is a difference between option/choice and mandate. However, you seem to be insisting that nothing else is mandated. In truth, several things are mandated. Since I went with a toaster fire before, I'll bring up smoke detectors. If you don't have smoke detectors in your house, you can get a fine. The fire marshall can't just walk into your house though, so you do still sort of have a choice of whether or not to put them in. If your house burns down and no smoke detectors are found, though, you can expect to also get a fine. Continuing the house fire theme, your house was built by a certain set of regulations. The buildings codes are illegal to ignore, and will also garner you a hefty fine if you choose to ignore them. When you pay to live in a constructed dwelling, believe it or not, you are paying for that code to be upheld. The electrician and carpenter get a certain monetary payment for the fact that they know how to build a house and wire it; it's not something just anyone can do on a whim. You can choose not to live in a constructed dwelling. Good luck trying to live a successful life like that in today's world.

I think the largest obstacle here is just accepting change. People live life a certain way for so many years, and they get used to it. If someone hears something is going to change, there may be some irrational backlash. A petty example that I think works well on a smaller scale is when the Janesville School District decided to switch from half days on the first Wednesday of the month (I believe) to early release days on the second Tuesday of the month. At first, mostly students and probably some parents thought that was ridiculous, but now, years later, it has become the accepted norm. I said it before, I might be inclined to take your side RAF, if it were not for the fact that the old system was being so blatantly abused. The time for change was a long time ago. It is not as if we didn't have a lot of time to fix this problem, we just ignored it for too long.

Thank you inconvenient and futurerichguy, for the support, and thank you RAF for understanding that I'm not trying to attack you, or anyone.

I agree that most laws that are designed to force safety or protection onto someone can be bad. If I ride a bike and I don't want to wear a helmet, I shouldn't have to. Another prime example for me is that I believe it should be legal to smoke marijuana for recreation. That's a whole different mess that I won't elaborate on right now, though.

It can be noted though, that sometimes the law designed to force us to be safer is still a good law. For instance, it is required to wear a seat belt when you are in a moving POV. I quite honestly might be on your side about health care, RAF, if it wasn't for the abuse that was going on with the now old system. Insurance companies figured out a way to make profit off of people who NEED medical attention, and should be able to get it. The lassez faire (sp?) system that we used to have for health care simply did not work, I suspect mostly due to greedy fat cats. The sad thing is, something should have been done a LONG time ago.

You pointed out that in some of my examples, a person has a legal choice to avoid some of those fees or services. I want to point out something else, though. If you do move out of the city and live in the country, you will not escape having to pay to live. You are still going to have to pay property taxes. If you have a septic tank, you are going to be forced to abide by EPA regulations on how your waste is handled. If you don't, you will get a fine.

You also brought up the good point that no law makes you purchase items with certain safety features. No, the law prevents distributors from selling them, but if you buy something before a recall for example, you don't -have- to take the item back. However, if you buy a faulty toaster, there is a recall, and you consciously choose not to return the toaster, and it causes your house to burn down... Well, if the insurance company finds out, you aren't going to be able to get any money from them because you were negligent. So it can be said that you are -pressured- to make the exchange. The fact that the government would not fine you for not replacing the toaster is irrelevant in this case because a toaster is not health care, and health care is not a toaster.

Comrade thekai, thanks for your comments as well.

“Close. It's based on reasonable perspective. For instance, the Earth is constantly in danger of being pelted by massive cosmic objects. Should all roofs be built with reinforced titanium then? No, because that's not reasonable. Same logic would apply to people wearing helmets when they go for a walk outside.”
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A reasonable perspective is a rationalization, still subjective. Life is finite, the game of life has neither guaranteed lengths nor asserted setbacks. We accept risk in every aspect of daily activities, yet to this point not all have government required actions to protect us, or edicts of law to protect us from ourselves; IMHO these are the worst laws.

“Not quite. We pay the city to construct and operate street lamps so that we do not all need flashlights. If you live in the city and pay taxes, you are by law forced to pay for those utilities, though.”
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Yes, with this you have the option to move if you don’t want to partake in the planning provided.

“You have given so many great examples. Within reason. The mandatory actions must be reasonable. Hence, it is illegal for a licensed auto dealer to sell a vehicle without working seat belts. There are several mandatory safety features in items that we buy today, many of which are actually governed by the FCC.”
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Yet no law makes you buy the items with the safety requirements installed…still a free choice.

“Within reason. You can't make someone buy certain nutritional consumables, but you can prevent them from buying things harmful to their health (think pharmaceuticals).”
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Again you still have a choice. Laws protecting you from others actions I think are reasonable and expected.

“Do we not have sidewalks and streets? These are venues designed to help people get around. Can you tell me why most corners have a ramp that go to the crosswalk, instead of just a curb? A hint is, it has to do with the fact that everyone can walk, except for those who can't. I do also want to point out that we have a public transit system.”
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No, there are not sidewalks and streets everywhere. Yes I am very aware of the reason for ramps on sidewalks, much the same reason there are warnings on soda machines. Again with your example of transit, it is still an option….do you see the meaning in these comments of an option and choice vs a mandate yet?

"But it is a GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER..."
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In what way, specifically?
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"If you think you can't afford health care now ! Wait until it's free."
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Well, I was looking forward to regulations on insurance premium levels, and prohibition on denial of initial coverage/termination of existing coverage due to health conditions, but I hadn't heard health care would be "free." Amazing!

"The arguement of paying taxes to support lights etc. is not collected because I am an american citizen, but because I am using some service."
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Yes, you're using it as a citizen.
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"If I don't want pay utility fees to cover winter service for poor, I can go off the grid."
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Yes, you can. You're welcome to provide for your own source of heat and energy.
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"If I don't want to pay taxes, I don't work."
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Or consume from the market.
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"If I don't want to pay insurance or the fine, I have to leave the country."
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Not really.
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"Not exactly something a 'Free' country should be requiring."
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When you quote "Free," what are you quoting from?
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"By the way, I have no problem paying the military retirement plans as I sure enjoyed their protection."
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Just as you have no problem paying all sorts of other social service fees to government, because you sure enjoy the benefits they provide...to all of us. Who knew the military was so socialistic?
By the way, a few prominent founders didn’t think too highly of a large, standing military.
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"As the greatest danger to liberty is from large standing armies, it is best to prevent them by an effectual provision for a good militia." - James Madison, 1787.
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"Nor is it conceived needful or safe that a standing army should be kept up in time of peace..." - Thomas Jefferson, 1801.
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"The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force." - Thomas Jefferson, 1807.

For those of you who are anti health care reform. Have you actually read Paul Ryan's proposal? His proposal eliminates medicare, medicaid and social security for everyone under the age of 55. Instead he was to give seniors $2500 to go toward paying their own health care. He also wants the part of the money that currently gets taken in to pay for soc. sec. to be gambled in the stock market. After all we all know well that market did last year when it tanked. And as of right now there are no regulations in place to keep that from happening again. I will take the bill we have over nothing at all. This is not a government take over. It is just regulations to keep insurance companies honest. And by the way if you don't buy insurance there are no penalties for you if you choose not to pay it. Start reading what is out there on thomas.gov . Read the bills and what is in them. Don't just take Fox News or Rush Limbaughs word for things. 90% of the time they have been telling you lies about what is actually in the health care bill. Start doing your homework people.

IF this was just reform, I would be all for it. But it is a GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER and NOT REFORM! There is a BIG difference........If you think you can't afford health care now ! Wait until it's free.

The arguement of paying taxes to support lights etc. is not collected because I am an american citizen, but because I am using some service. If I don't want pay utility fees to cover winter service for poor, I can go off the grid. If I don't want to pay taxes, I don't work. If I don't want to pay insurance or the fine, I have to leave the country. Not exactly something a "Free" country should be requiring.

By the way, I have no problem paying the military retirement plans as I sure enjoyed their protection.

Thumbs up to futurerichguy, justsaynotomath and thekai. Took the words out of my mouth, and then some.

RAF (comrade), please don't take offense to how I display your argument.

"So it is all based on perspective, but not any perspective, just the perspective that thinks it is ok to force people to purchase something."

Close. It's based on reasonable perspective. For instance, the Earth is constantly in danger of being pelted by massive cosmic objects. Should all roofs be built with reinforced titanium then? No, because that's not reasonable. Same logic would apply to people wearing helmets when they go for a walk outside.

"I guess than it would be ok to force everyone to purchase a house...you need shelter."

Funny that you say that. Along the same lines, in Wisconsin it is illegal for utility companies to cut power during our cold season because, it has been deemed shelter is necessary for survival. In several cities and in some states, it is in fact as you said, RAF, illegal to be homeless. Thanks for pointing that out. I want to point out, that does NOT mean you must purchase a home. It basically means you can't lodge somewhere without the permission of the property owner.

"I guess it would be ok to force people to purchase flashlights, dont want anyone getting hurt walking around in the dark."

Not quite. We pay the city to construct and operate street lamps so that we do not all need flashlights. If you live in the city and pay taxes, you are by law forced to pay for those utilities, though.

"It should also be ok to force everyone to purchase safety shoes, elbow pads, helmets, mouth guards, ear plugs, safety glasses, and ...toss in your favorite safety gear don't want anyone getting hurt if they should trip on a stair or child's toy."

You have given so many great examples. Within reason. The mandatory actions must be reasonable. Hence, it is illegal for a licensed auto dealer to sell a vehicle without working seat belts. There are several mandatory safety features in items that we buy today, many of which are actually governed by the FCC.

"Better force vitamins, minerals, fruits, vegetables, liquids, and subsidized milk don't want anyone to forget to eat."

Within reason. You can't make someone buy certain nutritional consumables, but you can prevent them from buying things harmful to their health (think pharmaceuticals).

"Everyone should be able to get around so at a minimum there should be a requirement for a transportation aide for everyone; roller skates, ice skates, skate board, twister, unicycle, and a bus pass so everyone can get to their mandated health, wellness, and political debriefing appointments."

Do we not have sidewalks and streets? These are venues designed to help people get around. Can you tell me why most corners have a ramp that go to the crosswalk, instead of just a curb? A hint is, it has to do with the fact that everyone can walk, except for those who can't. I do also want to point out that we have a public transit system.

RAF, the government forces us to subsidize your retirement benefits. I bet you have no problem with that.

So it is all based on perspective, but not any perspective, just the perspective that thinks it is ok to force people to purchase something.

I guess than it would be ok to force everyone to purchase a house...you need shelter.

I guess it would be ok to force people to purchase flashlights, dont want anyone getting hurt walking around in the dark.

It should also be ok to force everyone to purchase safety shoes, elbow pads, helmets, mouth guards, ear plugs, safety glasses, and ...toss in your favorite safety gear don't want anyone getting hurt if they should trip on a stair or child's toy.

Better force vitamins, minerals, fruits, vegetables, liquids, and subsidized milk don't want anyone to forget to eat.

Everyone should be able to get around so at a minimum there should be a requirement for a transportation aide for everyone; roller skates, ice skates, skate board, twister, unicycle, and a bus pass so everyone can get to their mandated health, wellness, and political debriefing appointments.

Good point thekai. How about police and fire services? According to some of the logic below, only those who elect to pay for them should receive those services.

Benthinkin,

I can see where you're coming from, and it does seem almost disturbing when it's put that way. However, consider this. You can not live well in this country if you do not have a good source of income. I'd even argue that you can't "barely get by" without some sort of income, or someone supporting you. If you are making the income, you get taxed. If someone is supporting you, that person gets taxed. Will a homeless man or woman be fined for not purchasing health insurance? No. So, in reality, you are already being taxed for living. You just haven't looked at it in the right perspective.

So living in a "Free country" includes penalizing a person for not purchasing a product? If I choose to drive, i agree to carry insurance for the privelidge to drive, now I am required to purchase healthcare simply for being an american or am penalized?

I read it. OMG. Even those whom support it openly here should actually read it for a change of heart.
Read It. Nuff said.

The Poor already have free health care in Wisconsin.. It may need to be expanded to cover they few who don't qualify because of anal policies our state legislators created.. but its amazing how many people think this is a good bill. Have we become a totally uninformed country when it comes to our Government, & the laws they create.

Entitlement Programs created by Politicians (Dems & Reps) are whats helping to break Uncle Sams Piggy Bank, & you people think its good to create another Welfare program (i.e. entitlement programs).

I hate to ask the question because I know the number will be low, but.. how many of you for this bill have actually read the bill. I don't care if your Democrat or Republican.. Read the Bill! Claiming "Ignorance" won't stop this bill once its rolling.

I support healthcare for all.Not a system that enriches insurance companies and excludes the destitute.

shhh don't tell gliver18 about the power of the purse and where in government most spending originates.

I wonder if most people don't realize that the national debt is a little over 12 trillion dollars as of march 2010. That the cumulative national debt that Presidents (Ford,Reagan,Bush 1&2,) accounted for over 9 trillion dollars of that debt. That means almost 75% of our national debt was caused by the irresponsibility of the Republican Presidents and their supporters. I can just about imagine now the responses of the far right rat crowd, try to stretch that fact but when people search non-partisan facts they will find once again what these despicable liars of the right wing t-baggers and followers are all about.

I am in favor of a healthcare reform, but don't agree with parts of what is being forced as a result of the current one. I feel that insurance companies shouldn't be able to control what a patient can or cannot have done, what medications a patient can or cannot take, and the costs associated with healthcare need to get under control once and for all. I think everyone should be able to have healthcare coverage. However, I don't think anyone should be REQUIRED to have coverage. If someone truly does not want to take out coverage for whatever reason, that should be their choice, not the government's choice. As far as the concerns about the healthcare reform putting companies out of business, I can see why this would be a concern and the government needs to carefully implement what a company is required to offer employees. Whatever happens, we need to put our main focus on keeping all sizes of companies in America and get the economy rolling again so people can have benefits through employers.

The williness to share with others is fine, provided it is your resources you are sharing. I will share mine as I wish, thanks. Taking resources to "share" is not noble by any means.

Sharing is supposed to be a willing act. This country was built on the need to improve ones own situation. My families work ethic came from watching my parents working multiple jobs and going without in order to ensure they could cover necessities. If something is put in place to reduce ones need to improve their own situation, it reduces the drive to improve. There are many other career choices I would've preferred but stayed to provide for my family that I chose to have.

Oh. And so far as I can see, a "left wingnut" has the temerity to care about and the will to share with everyone who needs it, and a conservative cares about his own pocketbook. I'm a wingnut. Screw me.

Is the Gazette leaving up this poll ad infinitum in hopes of turning around the result?

Laughable the wingnuts complain of the Bush tax cuts, yet not one of them paid more than they were required as their tax rate also went down...

Typical libs, always willing to give more but only if it is required.

Despite all of gliver18's rants about excessive spending by the GOP (I agree it was execessive & irresponsible) the rhetoric is just more standard leftist commie inaccurate propaganda.

After 8 years, Clinton left office leaving us with a 4.5 TRILLION dollar nation debt & the 1990s were amongst our best years ever economically with near full employment.

After 8 years (and the 2001 recession, 9/11, and the war in IRAQ) Bush spent another 4.5 TRILLION dollars that our government didn't have. He spent too much. Bush left office leaving us with a 9 TRILLION dollar debt.

In just 14 months Obama has already raised the national debt to over 12 TRILLION dollars, almost as much as Clinton or Bush spent in their 8 years in office. The national debt is expected to reach 15 TRILLION (+ 6 TRILLION)dollars by Obama's 4th year in office in 2014. Scary as that is about 60% of a full year of our nation's GDP.

This is not fuzzy math. It's just fact.

None are so blind as those who will not see, gliver18!

Obama is the most far left, spend and tax liberal president we have had in a long time.

But hey who cares if we leave our grand kids and their grand kids all this debt to pay off? I'll have to agree with you on this -- it's no skin off our backs. As long as our nation doesn't go bankrupt while I'm still alive, I could care less who has pay for all of our spending silliness ....

The vast majority of Americans right now are concerned about jobs and the deficit. Not health care which is going to help neither. Create jobs first, tackle the rest later.

This is the dumbest Poll I have ever seen. I must declare myself as a Dem or Repub to vote. I refuse to do that. I am other - against healthcare. What a rediculous freekin poll.

Ya know Mr. Bond, ya gotta quit livin in that fantasy movie world that your in. That (road,street, highway you drive on), (the Police Dept that protects you from harm), (the Fire Dept that protects your home & you), (all the local, state, national Parks that you enjoy), ( The Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, National Guard that protect our country and you & I), (the schools that educate us, but apparently not you), (even pools that we join together to have car insurance). All these things and many others are SOME FORM OF SOCIALISM. THANK GOD FOR THOSE PROGRESSIVE SOCIALIST IDIOTS. How in the world are we still going to have all those things if we don't pull together, the middle class has no more money,(remember previous Adm Bush and cronies destroyed them). We have to rescind those healthy tax cuts plus a few other regulatory reforms that present Administration wants to do. If we go back to conservative Republican policies that have been proven wrong over and over then we will indeed go over the deep Abyss

Health care needed to be reformed, but not TAKEN OVER by the PROGRESSIVE SOCIALIST IDIOTS running our government!

Hey there Mr Data, YOU BETCHA (Wink, Wink). You should read pubsrus post at 3:54 P.M., April 5 2010. You have got to be an outright phony conservative to be all concerned about Obama's debt verses Georgey Boy Bush. The latest posting by the U.S. Treasury Dept (March 2010) shows the National Debt has increased 2 Trillion since Pres Obama took office. Now how much interest do you suppose we have to pay back on top of that 10.6 trillion that he inherited from Bushie Boy. National Debt now stands at 12.6 Trillion, looks like you have some of that fuzzy math problem that all you phoney conservatives seem to have. Ya know mr data, do ya think if we rescind all those enormous tax breaks that Dubya gave to the wealthy, make it a law that your conservative buddies (CEO's) that now AVG over 600 times the wages that their employees make should only make 45-60 times as much as employees did in the 50's-60's-70's-80's. But of course your conservative Republican pals in Washington will make sure by way of filibuster's that won't happen. Why imagine what would happen if it would come to pass. You BETCHA, there would probably not be 12, but 20 million new living wage jobs created plus HEALTH CARE would be paid for. Ya know (wink, wink) to think that we grab these poor men and women that make substandard wages and have them join the service, ( loose their life or limb) just to protect some greedy phony conservative Republicans way of life. A Conservative that ignores these facts and those that pubsrus wrote about will make America one that I would be ashamed of but apparently you will never catch on because of the GREED imbedded deep in your heart

www.singlepayeraction.org , get some facts, make your own decision. Think for yourself. Stop believing the lies brought to you by NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, TNT, TBS and FOX. Courtesy of zanex, prilosec, zoloft, and shell oil. SERIOUSLY universal health care is the only way everybody will be covered, with nobody left out. Do the math, cutting out billing departments with every hospital, clinic, and private physician's office will dramatically reduce the cost of health care, and if one major system is being billed, there will be regulations on the prices of healthcare. I work and every check i see medicare/medicaid payments being taken from my check. And I don't get to use it. I think everyone who works would not mind paying $5 a check to a program that they can see benefits from, plus you would save enormous amounts on deductibles, insurance premiums, and prescriptions. I would rather pay a little each week into something I can see ! Being able to go to the dentist, the dr, anytime I needed to, and not getting billed. I would rather help out the ''drug addicts'' and foot thebill for their rehab, so that they can get back on their own two feet and get a job and contribute to society again. I think it is hilarious how you right wing nut jobs think the government should stay out of your business and your wallet, yet you are the ones who elected the guys who ensured that they could steal as much of your money as possible, including your very own business!!!! This country is supposed to be full of caring, nice, people who just want to attain their dreams and reach their goals, and at one time or another, someone falls down and needs a little help back up, so that they can in turn, pay it forward. It's hilarious how easy you conservatives forget what kind of people came to our country one hundred years and how they got help/support in some way until they could get settled. If it wasn't for kinder american's generosity, your great grandfather never would have had a place to live, or a place to work, or a neighbor to babysit while he looked for work.

We had eight years of Bush and Cheney - NOW you get mad?

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount in 2000 and
appointed a President.
You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate
energy policy.
You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative (Valerie Plame) got outed.
You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.
You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.
You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.
You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.
You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.
You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.
You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.
You didn't get mad when we let a major US city, New Orleans, drown.
You didn't get mad when we gave a 900 billion tax break to the rich.
You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.
You FINALLY got mad when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all okay with you, but helping other Americans...oh no...now you're mad.
Well isn't that special.

Here's something for all the left winged nut jobs chasing socialism to think about.

You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. Government cannot give to anybody anything that government does not first take from somebody else. When half of our nation's people believe they do not have to work because the other half of our nation will take care of them; and when that other half of our nation succums to the notion that it does no good to work because somebody else gets to enjoy the fruits of their hard labor, that, my friend, is the end of our nation. You cannot multiply wealth by simply dividing it.

There is NO free lunch people. Get to work and earn your keep, anyway you have to.

IF you want more JOB opportunities, then join people like me who want the government to just get out of our lives and to end FREE TRADE and its rush to ship all of our living wage low-end, production jobs to cheaper and cheaper labor markets. We have made China and India and Canada strong enough.

Our multi-national corporations get richer, and the American worker gets poorer. And all Obama & Congress do is pass health care, for only 95% of Americans, at that!

I want to pay for my own health care. I want to buy my own groceries, not receive food stamps. I want to be able to pay my mortgage on time and not have the bank call me a dead-beat.

I can't do any of that without having a job. A living wage manufacturing job.

That's what I want to see Obama create - about 12 million of those living wage jobs.

4/5/10
The company I work for waited until the voting, in Washington, was complete to unveil our 2010 Health Care Package. My premium increased 30% annually. It's ok insurance but certainly not by UAW or government employees standards. This is the future and anyone who thinks otherwise is sadly deceiving themselves. Am just glad they are still offering coverage, but I am quite sure new rules will be forthcoming, as in wellness checks here at work (now optional, will they be required in the future?). Another chunk of freedom lost.

Hey there ... gliver18, you betcha (wink, wink) that my posts reflect that of a conservative. No one in the their right mind - NO ONE - would run their household in the same fiscally irresponsible manner that our president runs this nations spending. Obama's been in office for nearly 15 months now and he's already expanded our national debt by nearly as much as Bushie boy did after being in office 8 years! During his time in office Obama has let 6-8 million more Americans lose their jobs because of failed government policies that HE promised us he would correct if we elected him. He has become a man of many broken promises. He has proven to world that it is not just the white man who speaks with a forked tongue. This non-white (I don't want to be labeled a racist for calling him black) president does that all the time. Decades ago, it was obvious from the on-set how bad Jimmy Carter would be as president when he got into office. Obama's ratings are even lower than Carter's at this point in his first (and I predict, only) term.

Well, I'm in favor of health care reform, and I am glad it passed. At the same time, I want the GOP to continue to challenge it. How else will it be made sound?

I don't think that because someone wants something challenged necessarily equates to that person being opposed to it.

For instance, I do not think that Pluto should be included in the planets in our solar system. I agree with most scientists that in order for a mass to be considered a planet it should have to "clear" it's neighborhood, or it's orbit. I welcome any challenges to my argument, and I encourage people to question my opinion if they are confused.

This health care 'reform' is still charging people insane amounts of money for health care, so it's not really helping anyone except the fat cat insurance companies who have generously donated to certain politicians' campaigns. It's also disturbing <for the Gazette and the general public> to assume people can only be split up into two groups, democrats or republicans. Third parties have ALWAYS brought on change through getting people to realize there is a problem that must be reckoned with and third parties have always been there in history responsible for the grassroots campaigns to abolish slavery, to give women the right to vote, to end child labor, to form unions in the workplace, to create safer work environments,to get the civil rights movement going, to give women the freedom of choice, to give people a better living by ensuring they are safe, healthy and able to earn a decent living wage. Why can't we have single payer health care in our nation? DO YOU KNOW 23 cents of EVERY dollar spent with health insurance companies goes straight to administration costs/billing departments/collection agencies, which also create billions of tons of paper waste by billing patients multiple times. If we did have single payer health care, all of those jobs would cease to exist and there would be billions of dollars leftover that could be put to use in the system. THIS "health reform" is a joke. HOW CAN WE ACCEPT THIS BILL SAYING NOW THE INSURANCE COMPANIES HAS TO PAY FOR OPERATIONS AND SURGERIES FOR PRE EXISTING CONDITIONS (in children, but oh yea you will have to wait up to four years for it to take 'effect') OR ELSE THEY WILL HAVE TO PAY A FINE of $100 / day. GUESS WHAT! Insurance companies are out to make MONEY. They would rather pay $36500 in fines for denying health care over the course of one year then pay $100,000 for brain surgery.

Independent who thinks both parties need a frontal lobotomy. The multi-generational Congresses haven't been able to balance a budget for decades, it's been stealing from the Social Security fund for decades, and STILL over 80% of the people bleat like sheep about how their good party is protecting them from the other bad party.

We should bake the lobbyists and partisan talking heads until they are charcoal briquettes and use them to roast Senators and Representatives to a temperature guaranteeing they are trichinosis-free.

If hospitals have to treat every critical case - regardless of ability to pay - then everyone should be required to have health insurance. Obviously there are government programs available for those unable to afford it - but why should I pay higher rates for my care because others went through a hundred thousand dollar heart surgery without insurance then claimed a medical bankruptcy.

The alternative is that hospitals only treat those who can pay. Frankly I don't want to live in a country that has given up on those less fortunate.

Obviously Darwin can only attack the person and not the message. What does that tell you when there is not an intelligent response but a personal attack Darwin?

Darwin is drinking the Kool-aide again. Those numbers don't add up. better have another glass full. Make it a half full glass though. I wouldn't want you to over dose and get blamed for it.

darwin1 - 60% of voters thought the bailouts were a bad idea.

8 billion? Is that before or after the interest is paid on the money borrowed to make the loans?

Clearly you haven't been thinking. Both Germany and China, socialist nations, export a lot more than we do and in the case of Germany they vote. Socialism has nothing to do with liberty or freedom. One does not exclude the other and the idea that you haven't figured this out only demonstrates how stupid you are. We are a Republic sometimes democracy and if the majority of voters want the government to run something that is OUR right and not for you to DICTATE to us. Currently, the government stands to make 8 billion dollars from the bank bail out. MAKE MONEY from something the paranoid tea baggers have been whining about from day one. It saved the taxpayers billions but now they have to find something else to harp about and they will be wrong about that too. Their predictive track record speaks volumes about their members - WRONG!!

I went to websters on line dictionary to see just what the definition of socialism is. Not only does it fit, but toward the end it mentions a step toward communism. Pretty scary when you sit back for a few minutes and think about how this country became great (free and capitalist) and just where other socialist and communist countries are now.

I posted my comment about health care and I should have left it there and never came back. No I couldn't do that for some stupid reason so now I have another opinion that I just want to put out there. I am not one to bash people (I am not going to argue either) so I am not doing that, but it irritates me when someone responds and another person finds excuse after excuse to refute it. Even if the refutation is based on hard bias or some close mindedness. I am not taking "parties" or sides either. I am just seeing things I do not like and I think if some people would open their eyes and stop worrying
about what "side" someone is on maybe they would also see that IF YOUR CHECKBOOK IS IN THE RED YOU CANNOT WRITE ANOTHER CHECK, for ANY reason. Wait, unless you are the government. Yay.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...

Say what you will about that source, but I am having a hard time finding anything that says Obama's spending is NOT worse than Bush's. I am not a supporter of either (I have no affiliation) so don't even try to say, in any way, that my view is based on support of either of them. I am a supporter of people period, point blank, and the WORKING MAN'S (or woman's) wallet. -That is all, goodbye-

The two party political situation is the problem. If we would all vote for only independent candidates this November it might start to make a difference. Ryan and Feingold should both be courageous and run as independents. It's the only way to fix the system.

P.S. - It's disgusting how the Tea Party movement has allowed itself to be hijacked by the Republican party.

call1: I hear this thing about minorities trying to shove their way of life down the throats of others. But I don't know what it means. Can you educate me?

jimbofish - This story is about health insurance, not Bush. The article you posted states that a tighter watch needs to be put forth on spending, etc, etc. Funny, the current administration is also spending like no tomorrow. Bailouts and so on that have done nothing for the economy. Stay on the subject. This health care reform will be spending even more when jobs are being lost daily.
-
As the last paragraph of the story you posted states:
"But the jury is out on the current administration," he says. "The numbers are shocking. Ultimately [Obama's] responsible now.

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/bus...

I'd be embarrassed today to say I supported either one. Both Parties are ineffective as Representatives of the people. Now don't get me wrong.. They are still effective.. if your a lobbyist, Big Drug Company, A Minority wanting to shove your way of life down Americans throats.. Big Insurance company.. They're there to help you, & you should do as your doing & capitalize on every Congressman/women (political correctness! Also choking us to death). Now If i were asked which Political Party (Dem or Rep) do I think are more dangerous to America.. Its hands down.. the Democrats. Every-time they get power, we get a new Welfare system. This time its this Health Care Bill. Watch.. next comes Amnesty for Illegals. Having said all this negativity against Dems, I have to revert back now to my previous statement for the readers that don't pay attention. Both are Majorly Flawed when it comes to representing, "We.. the common folk"

Now Answering that Poll Question...I'm an "American" that thinks there is No common sense in Politics anymore. Common sense has been bought, paid for, & has left the building (so to speak). After reading this Health Care Bills Revised Version(LOL).. There's very little difference then the 1st version, & its "Welare". Taxpayers have been footing the bill for Welfare programs since Franklin D Roosevelt's invention of the "New Deal" programs. Programs like social welfare, labor unions,civil rights, & regulation of businesses. These have been the Democrats economic agenda's since 1932, when FDR became President. Those things had their time, & were needed during those times. But now they are strangling this Country into economic collapse. Once you start a welfare program.. there's no stopping it once people are dependent on it, & those programs are bringing Billions into a already corrupt system. But hey.. lets go forward anyways. We're sending $2,000,000,000 (that's Billion) to Haiti.

You would know

I'll bet it's hard to say ignorance oozing with a mouth full

Maybe if the RNC Chair Michael Steele would stop funding $2000.00 trips to the strip clubs the GOP could actually accomplish something. I doubt it though.

More ignorance oozing from the sidelines...

The Republican party has really outdone themselves. Calling themselves teabaggers. They should have googled the word "teabagging" before picking the name. Quite appropriate.

gliver18 - You are very much in need of new material. You seem to love the word T-bagger. Hmmmmmm.

usaret embrace the ignorant comments from these left wingnuts. The very fact they cant argue about principles, ideals, and facts presented shows they are lost to begin with. The only thing left for them is provide irrational and false statements about posters. When the ignorant ignore the truth it only ensures they will never learn.

Your exactly right usavet, I do thank you for support in the backup roles that you describe, but numerous combat vets have told me and especially the black vets that they would have loved to walk with you past the T-baggers with their racist signs and you defending them.Your continued support of the chicken hawks further alienated them, especially your support for Sen Saxby Chambliss.It actually seems that in your support of chicken hawks existence that they are needed & necessary, and you & AirBag ignoring their hypocrisy ticks off a lot of vets

AARP.org
What Americans Think About Health Care

Percentage of people who said they were MORE likely to support health care reform legislation after becoming aware that it would:

Give tax credits to small businesses to cover employees: 73%

Create health insurance exchanges to help people get coverage: 67%

Leave most people’s existing coverage unchanged: 66%

Prohibit insurers from denying coverage or charging more for people with preexisting conditions: 63%

Expand Medicaid to cover more low-income people: 62%

Allow children coverage under parents’ insurance until age 26: 60%

Help close the Medicare Part D “doughnut hole”: 60%
HEALTH CARE REFORM UPDATE

gliver18/merrypoppins? It doesn't matter whether you were on the front lines or in the rear detachment, every MOS was important to the effort. To insult those who provided the supplies, the food, as unimportant and insignificant is a shame. You in just a few short words have insulted those who served honorably and also have managed to insult the families of those military personnel. Congradulations. It doesn't matter if you were a company clerk or an infantryman, you had a job to do and 99% did that job and did it damn well. I am sure that many vets you have worked with were not all on the front line. Many of them worked in supply, mess, hospitals, and so forth but to just make a blanket comment that anyone who did this was just a bunch of hot air. Since you have not served in the military, based on your knowledge, join up and find out what the military life is really about instead of ranting. This may also make you feel a little better about yourself, you won't have to read any future answers from me because you are just a basic loss. I'm sure that will get a nice comment from you.

You think your pretty clever mrdata but to say that Pres Obama, who has only been in office year one year is the worst of all. The party of no that is led by Right Wingers who had no interest in bipartisanship, whose only avowed interest was to block every policy change that Americans had voted for in Nov, make it appear as Obama was doing nothing by their blocking maneuvers and then let FOX spew their poisonous venomous right wing propaganda. Come on now, be honest. As I read through your comments on this post and your 56 past posts pretty much defines you as a right wing ideologue spinner,pretending to be neither Repub or Dem, implying your neutral and so concerned about debit & deficits that this ad ministration supposedly caused. Where was all your concern during the previous Adm the past 8 years which is the main reason we are in this mess now. Your disingenuous at best, & pretty hard to swallow

I am neither one of those horrificly out of touch Democrats or Republicans. I hold our elected officials from BOTH political parties responsible for the mess this nation is in.

While I favor having 'safety nets' for Americans truly in need of assistance from our government, I DO NOT favor - and NEVER will - having our government expand its entanglements into our daily lives.

Our government has NO business telling its citizens that a condition of citizenship requires all of us have the exact same health care insurance, to be determined by the government. In addition, the governmnet does not show any fiscal responsibility when it forces states to pay for hundreds of millions of dollars of extra healthcare costs. And how irresponsible our legislators are for creating yet another trillion dollar entitlement program for the federal taxpayers grand children and great-grand children to bear.

This is the most disgusting period of political corruptness I have ever witnessed and I'm in my 6th decade. I thought I had seen it all with Nixon; then with Carter; then with Clinton; then with Bush 2. But Obama and his pals in Washington with the 'WE are the nation' mantra are the WORST bunch of all.

Or ask do you want our leader's to have the same health care that they want you to have at the same cost

This is a severely flawed poll question.
How about:

1. Are you in favor of health care reform?

2. Do you favor or oppose the "reform" that was just passed?

Take from those that have.Give to those that have not. Then what?

And I certainly agree with any list that would put Chambliss as Number one on the Hypocrites Parade of Stars. Mr, I mean Senator 6-Deferment Patriot had to go to a run-off, even in Georgia for this term, so they aren't all fooled down there.
*
And for those patriotic vets, from a post-election Huffington Post piece:
*
Chambliss Voted Against the New GI Bill for Veterans of the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
*
Chambliss Has Voted Against Veterans Programs at Least 23 Times Since Joining the Senate
*
Chambliss Voted Against Additional Funding to Research Traumatic Brain Injury--the "Signature Wound" of the Iraq War.
*
Chambliss Opposed the Webb Amendment Guaranteeing Troops Time At Home Between Deployments
*
Chambliss Repeatedly Voted Against Additional Funding to Give the Men & Women in Uniform the Armor and Equipment They Need.

No wonder Chicken hawks like Cheney and Limbaugh, comparatively speaking, look good to these "true American" rt wingers.

gliver 18:

Thanks for all your work. It shows what we have in the hold to combat all these hypocrites. Fighting for true American principles is a difficult job against all the greasy, well financed bull from Murdoch-Ailes-talk radio. The hits on Sen Robt Byrd, over something he belonged to more than half a century ago and susequently GREW BEYOND, something the right wing screechers never evince (growth toward a more moral understanding) is particularly, gratuitously cynical.

The vets that I know think that usaret is a vet that is so wrapped up in his own idealogue that he can't tell right from wrong. After seeing the chicken hawk list and still defend a man like Sen Saxby Chambliss is ridiculous. The vets that I know and respect, tell me that a profile of vet like you probably think torture is a great thing to do to the enemy but cry like a Glen Becker if they did that to you. That's how we make more enemies with policies made like that by the Right Wing.You are one simple fool if you just blindly refuse to believe that just any old name was put on that list. Why don't you pick out a few of those blowhard cowardly names, research by your own method and find out like I already did that they didn't serve, but make policy ( and I know you know that) to fight unjust wars at your expense. The combat vets that I work with told me that it is more likely ( that a vet with views like yours probably served in the rear at a supply center or as a mess cook, & that they were usually the bravado ones). That might not be true in your case, but as was told to me, the most probable.

Again I repeat, it is only a list of names. You could name a thousand, a million but it would only be a list of names. Some one has to make the decisions and someone has to serve. Sorry, that is life and it hasn't changed in a thousand years and it will be the same a thousand years after we are gone. I spent 20 years in the service and it didn't bother me who did or did not serve except the ones who ran across the boarder to Canada during the VN War. Remember, someday you could be put in the position that sends young people off to do battle and they would do their service but, someone would look up your name, place it in a list and call you a "ChickenhawK" but it is only a name.
I'm glad you work with vet's, they need all the help they can get.
As for Clinton, yeah, but he had to do a little wheeling and dealing to get that scholarship.
Again keep up the good work with the Vet's. That is far more important then making a list of names that just prove there are a lot of names. Bob Hope didn't serve in the Military but he sure did a lot for the troops. Stop looking for the negative, look for the positive. Are you negative around the Vet's you help and work with?

Gliver18, now that you defined your use of the phrase chicken hawk, "those who support & make policy to fight wars", why does your listings have names that don’t meet your definition?

jimbofish Those Righties sure don't like to see facts like that. AirBag and the rest of the spinners will deny of course but isn't it fun to expose these hypocritical spinners

usaret, If you read definition of chicken hawks one of the reasons being, those who support & make policy to fight wars (many of them unjust) but want others to fight instead of them. There are many soldiers that are Republican and Democrat. What I'm telling you is that an overwhelming number of chicken hawks are Republican Party Legislators and Republican Pundits.I would advise that if you think that list is a lie, why don't you run through that list and research it. I work on committees with several vets that have seen combat and that is were I first learned of the term, did some research and by golly there it is just for you. In answer For Bill Clinton he was granted a deferment for the draft as he was a Rhodes Scholar. Never in history has the service taken your Rhodes scholar, 2nd reason I don't think by above definition is that he didn't make unjust reasons for war. Is it possible their are Democrat chicken-hawks (sure) but as the list reads (overwhelming Republican).If you are a vet,check out the BIO on Senator Saxby Chambliss from Georgia,, to me the most rotten chicken hawk of all, With right Wing Repub support and spin doctering claimed that Sen Max Cleland was not a war hero when the soldier in front of him accidentally dropped a grenade, Max fell on it to protect others and lost three limbs,because it was not actual combat but on base in a simple accident. That man was still serving his country and to be impugned by a coward like that is flat out wrong.All vets should be against chicken hawks because they receive the honor that is due the good vets.

55% in favor... i bet this poll wont show up on FOX NEWS

gliver18: Which list do you place Clinton, Bill and his buddy Obama Barack.?
Now, did you serve or are you just making noise?

No, justmy414. I am saying there is a significant difference between a panhandler and a mugger.

http://spacecoast.craigslist.org/pol/166...

Lots of you spinners only get their sources from right wing news and tabloids. I use the copy and paste method to shorten my time on the post to get the message out for those people that might not know about chicken hawks. If thats plagiarizing so be it. Gotta get the truth out. Most people don't like hypocrisy so its worth all negative responses from people like you, who apparently love HYPOCRITES

"possibly, I don't know, but if he is that's wrong, now be honest "
-
Wow, the comedy never ends...

justmy414 please post a link to the study or the title I am interested to read it, no matter what you "think" of any news channels I might watch.

gliver18: Wow, you know how to type a lot of names but then you must have a lot of time to waste. And really, what does this have to do with anything in regards to Health Care Reform except to allow you to practice typing and wasting space. Yep, you can really be proud of your self. You just made a big impression that just proves what you are, and if you have to ask what that is then you wouldn't understand.

I wonder how many chickenhawks are posting on this blogsphere

This one has got to be good-------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Chickenhawk Hall of Shame

< | >
name:
Sean Hannity
rank:
Common Chickenhawk
date-of-birth:
December 30, 1961
home state:
New York
missed opportunity:
Grenada
occupation:
Propagandiste one of the best

Oh, what the Heck, lets try another one on the list-----------------------------------------------------The Chickenhawk Hall of Shame

< | >
name:
Clarence Saxby Chambliss
rank:
Chickenhawk First Class with Distinguished Fleeing Cross
date-of-birth:
November 10, 1943
home state:
Georgia
missed opportunity:
Vietnam War
excuse:
Bad knees
preferred activity:
Running
occupation:
Senator

There are Chickenhawks, and then there are Chickenhawks. Saxby Chambliss is a Chickenhawk Supreme. He got himself elected to the Senate by casting aspersions on the patriotism of the incumbent, Democrat Max Cleland. Cleland lost three limbs serving his country in Vietnam. Saxby Chambliss was unable to serve because of his bad knees, but is somehow able to totter along as a recreational runner.

Oh look, Here's one we nominated, lets see his BIO The Chickenhawk Hall of Shame

< | >
name:
Glenn Lee Beck
rank:
Common Chickenhawk
date-of-birth:
February 10, 1964
home state:
Connecticut
missed opportunity:
Grenada
excuse:
None
preferred activity:
Yelling and crying
occupation:
Hallucinating

Yet another unanticipated consequence of the closing of publicly-funded asylums …

MORE CHICKERNHAWKS---------------------------John Mathias Engler
Donald Louis Evans
Jerry Lamon Falwell
Don Feder
Douglas J. Feith
Jim Finnegan
Malcolm Stevenson "Steve" Forbes
Yoshihiro Francis Fukuyama
Frank Gaffney
Newton Leroy "Newt" Gingrich
Rudolph Wiliam Louis "Rudy" Giuliani
Alan Gottlieb
William Franklin "Billy" Graham
William Phillip "Phil" Gramm
Lee Greenwood
Judd Gregg
Sean Hannity
Paul Harvey
Dennis Hastert
John Edgar Hoover
Brit Hume
Asa Hutchinson
Young Timothy Hutchinson
David R. Ignatius
Frederick Walter Kagan
Robert Kagan
Francis Anthony Keating
Ronald Kessler
Alan Lee Keyes
Brian Kilmeade
Charles De Ganahl Koch
David Koch
William "Bill" Kristol
Jon Llewellyn Kyle
Wayne LaPierre
Michael Arthur Ledeen
Irve Lewis "Scooter" Libby
Joseph Isidore "Joe" Lieberman
David Limbaugh
Rush Hudson Limbaugh III
William "Bill" Loeb III
Chester Trent Lott, Sr.
Frank I. Luntz
David Martin McIntosh
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Chickenhawk Hall of Shame

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possibly, I don't know, but if he is that's wrong, now be honest & call out all those republican racist's. It would take a long time (wouldn't it). Not defending Byrd but if and I say if that is a fact at least he is not trying to make policy out of it like our many repub friends & I mean many. Isn't it something how these T-baggers wrap themselves up in the flag, claim to be these super patriots, tell us the military fights to give us freedom so that we have free Speech & Liberty. Even though I am caucasian it is embarrassing to see all these white racist T-baggers with their racist signs proudly jabbing through the air & when you see the pictures of the t-bags its a majority walking around with inflammatory signs. With a large and I think possibly now a majority, most of our troops are not of the caucasian race. I wonder how they feel when they see your idiotic signs. When they get home they can't get a job but if they do probably will be min wage & what they fought so hard to protect is now trying to even deny them healthcare

gliver18 you state when we find a racist in our ranks we expel them....Lets talk about the grand dragon Robert Byrd. Now I know he is old but he is a racist and he is still in the democratic party.

retiredairforce, Is a Harvard University study good enough for you? Probably not, because it dosen't say what you want it to say. Better to persist in the Fox news sound bites than engage in any real thought.

This is silly! Who decided that someone must be either a Democrat or a Republican to care? In case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of independents and even a few adherents of other parties here in southern Wisconsin, and I've found a lot of them give *more* thought to the issues than those who are die-hard Democrats or the Republicans.

Sure seem's that people have a hard time staying on the right path of a article like Health Care stay with it not every thing else

Just got back from the tea party get together at the post office. Twenty over weight white guys and women wearing ball caps waving signs and don't tread on me flags.I asked where the people of color were,just blank stares.I also inquired if they knew the name of the three stooges no one missed it. I then asked if they knew the three branches of gov.again just blank stares.God bless them, so ill informed by the Palins,Becks and Rushes of this world.

gliver18

You need to just stop, log off, and shut down your computer. Then step outside and find a big rock and hug it. While hugging that rock, whisper to it "thank you rock... thank you for being here, because I have final found something that I can match intellectually.

Your B.S. about Bush and the "5 trillion" in spending...

Again, your lefties in congress voted for the bill paying for the war, it wasn't just Bush writing the checks.

However, here's my issue with Democrats spending. The money spent in the war, was for the war! All accounted for. That money helps keep us safe, protect our freedoms, but most important gives our troops fighting the "evil do'ers" the best equipment possible. By doing that, it allows people like you to post your anti-war thoughts, totally spitting on the troops that gave their lives, to give you this freedom.

The democrats however, like to bail out banks and car companies that fail (while the big-time executives are getting millions a year, and million and billions go unaccounted for!), and now like to spend on a health care plan where my money will go to the people who don't, can't or just won't improve there current situation. With that mindset why would unemployment lower, or the economy improve to help futurerichguy reach his dream. There is no reason for the unemployed to get off their butt because everything is given to them.

futurerichguy, Your right in the sense that the "death tax" will not apply to everyone, like it applied to me or anyone else who inherited property after a lose. But you still haven't addressed the issue of how this can be good reform for America when Americans are losing job, have less, and the left want to spend, spend, spend which raises our taxes.

futurerichguy: Why do you want to become rich? I mean after all the government will just take most of it back from you to pay for other peoples problems. I have no problem helping those less fortunate but I would like to determine the amount I give, not the government doing it for me. Just remember, the more you make the more the government will take.

Various members of the DNC — including Chairman Tim Kaine, Executive Director Jen O’Malley Dillon and Communications Director Brad Woodhouse — contacted their respective RNC counterparts this week in hopes of getting RNC Chairman Michael Steele to co-sign a document with Kaine that, in part, called for “elected officials of both parties to set an example of the civility we want to see in our citizenry. The Republican National Committee has rejected a proposal from its Democratic counterpart to sign a joint “civility” statement. Kind of shows what the racist, hate-mongering T-Bags are all about. Will be interesting to see how the Right Wing spins that story

Who said anything about allowing people to die, other than you? The reference to destitute and unfortunate were also reasons to start other social programs, from social security to welfare, are these not working?

People that have insurance “usually” lose that insurance when they become seriously ill? I am very interested in reading the data behind the study that obtained this finding.

Let me get this straight. You feel so little compassion for your fellow humans, you would allow them to become destitute and die because they had the unfortunate luck to become sick and unable to work. (thus they now have no insurance). Don't you people get the fact that people who have work insurance, usually lose that insurance when they become seriously ill. See seriously ill=sick=not able to go to work. (think - cancer -- 6-10 months recovery -- very sick from chemo treatments)Then if that person does manage to recover and gets a new job. (the lucky ones) The insurance company won't cover any subsequent bills for that condition -- now think (cancer 50% reaccurance) This is one of the big things the health care bill worked to reform.

gliver18: When the invasion of Iraq was being debated in 2003, I was laughed at and accused of being unpatriotic for predicting it would go down in history as one of the United States' biggest and most costly mistakes.

Though I am not affiliated with the tea party movement, the exponential growth of parasitic infection in this nation is causing me to seriously reconsider...

Have no fear the goverment will provide by way of the tax payer. Those of us that pay taxes that is.

Gliver, google doesn't label anyone. They just provide search results. They report what other people write.

Andre_Loon you have got to stop this right wing deceit. If you google your web site washingtonexaminer/politics you will find that google ( wouldn't anybody consider them as a neutral source) defines them as ultra conservative blogsphere, that hire right wing conservative pundits. When I go to that site and add up the numbers that they give for Bushie Boys deficit compared to Obama's just doesn't add up to 5 trillion. 100 billion this year , 313 billion the next year,,.. they only use 5 years when they should use 8 and I see where these spinners only come up with 2 trillion. Once again, caught in a lie, should be 5 trillion. You should feel slimey when you spin like that. Wasn't it Karl Rove who said tell a lie & by the 7th time people will believe its true.

John you make some interesting points. I find it interesting you will decide your stance on the current law until after you get the details; kind of late now that the law is in place.

The declaration of better care is subjective unless you define the circumstance.

I have read how this foreign country has this or that and we only have whatever. Many of the people expressing these views have never been beyond our borders and significantly less have lived in a foreign country; this would provide a basis for reasoned judgment vs. experiences in this country as well.

I was once a conservative young Barry Goldwater Republican. Later, I became a Jimmy Carter liberal. I have met many presidential candidates
and followed campaigns with deep interest. I do support some form of national health care but I will have to wait to get all the details before I decide to "think" anything. Rumors, innuendo and second-guessing will only encourage the "nabobs of negativism" to advance their own political agenda which may not be in the interest of a majority of citizens. Why is it that the countries that we over-powered in World War II have better care than we do? Why is it that many of them have competitive advantage in manufacturing and commerce? Why is it that we, who have been footing the bill for international peace and cooperation for the last 60 years are suffering and sacrificing our livelihoods?
Capitalism, socialism, communism, Democrat, Republican, and Libertarian are all conveniently concocted labels used at the beginning of lengthy self-serving political diatribes. When one sees these words one knows the outcome of the article before the reading has begun.
Health care yes but at what expense? At times I wonder if international business consortiums are pulling all the strings and we puppets are only dancing to the tune they play. It is like a beast who has given birth to many young, lets them swim away and then, pursues them and gobbles them up in an ultimate act of cannibalism.

T-baggers I have yet to hear your defense of Bushie boy and that 5 trillion dollar deficit but you are all worked up on a 860 Billion dollar health bill.That could have paid for over 5 health care bills. Is somebody like a t-bagger one heck of a hypocrite. My definition of SYNONYMOUS
(T-Bagger=Hypocrite)--(Hypocrite=T-Bagger)

jterry1955,
I have read the Bible I don't Believe I saw the part about charity via goverment, it says there will always be poor among us. only in America can some sluggard sit on a couch watch tv and get a check for doing nothing, in a house, with running water, and electricity, with a car in the driveway.

futurerichguy said " the estate tax pretty much sums up my frustration with most of you"
-
Why is that, because you expect part of the estate of others should belong to you? How would you like your neighbors coming into your your parents house, after they pass, to take things because it was determined they had too much?

The problem with the left is they CONSISTENTLY want to take through envy; long live the entitlement mentality.

Jterry1955: Let's me get this straight... you feel entitled to the fruits of others labor and the benefits of others frugality but THEY are the ones being selfish because they are unwilling to let you steal it for your own personal benefit?

Do you want to be indendet o depend

Has anybody noticed that once again the Gassite staf has imposed it's own form of censorship, I am talking about any comments on or about the nurse who took X-Rays of a patient with a foreign object in him, any body care to comment? It seem that the Editors like to talk about freedom of the press and frredom of self expression, but when it becomes to uncomfortable for them they just shut down any and all talk of it. well what about Mr. Peck? do you believe in the bill of rights or not?

I am just wondering, all of you people who are against health care reform, just what kind of insurance do YOU HAVE?, no let's make this personnal. because this is personnal, let's say your mother/father/ son or daughter was very ill, life threatint ill,( now rember this qustion is for all of you who are against health care reform) and you just lost your house, all of your savings, etc, because you do not have adiquite insurance, what do you do. This happens everyday, and this is why we pay taxes, to help out the unfortunate, or have you forgot what it means to live in a Demacracy? You are so selfish you can not imagine what it is like to be in the other persons shoes

I think all our leader's in DC, are on DEPEND'S

I am american I vote for who ever I think is right for the job.......Join me be an american

Let me go at this in a different direction. Unemployment is still near 10% in this country. Our deficit continues to grow with every stroke of the pen. The more people who are being laid off, loosing their jobs and cannot find a job, the less the Government receives in taxpayer money to pay down the deficit, pay into Social Security as well as Medicare. As we can see, last years Stimulus bill did nothing to get people back to work, saved some from being laid off and most jobs created were in the Government sector. IMO, working on the economy and getting people back to work so money can start coming back into this country and bringing up the economy should have been a priority not health care. A business mans philosophy is money spent is money earned, but if there is no money you don't spend. It's just too bad that some cannot see that and is now happening in this country and has been for a long time. Both Democrats and republicans have been fiscally irresponsible for years and is what got us to this point and time now. We are imploding from the inside out and most ignore it or refuse to see it happening.

futurerichguy - The t-bagger comment is really starting to get old dude.

The_One, your comment on the estate tax pretty much sums up my frustration with most of you t-baggers. I suggest you look up the definition of estate tax.

Also, per your comments on my screen name, I've become much more rich under Obama than under Bush. The market is up 30% since Obama took office, and in the 8 years Bush was in, the market averaged -2.5% annually. Pragmatism, not idealism.

the one; you make a valid point but i have to ask why Medicare, medicade, badger care, welfare, SS, military personel,Veterans, public employees, federal employees, politicans, etc,etc....all receive tax payer health care; why can't everyone?
It was once reported 60% of all Americans are covered by government health care.

But again, with out finical backing from Congress he can go to war all he wants, with whom ever he wants... but, he'll go alone.

This is just some of the new taxes you will inherit thanks to this bill. Face it we just can’t afford this bill, and now is NOT the time to be taxing families when unemployment is at an all time high and the economy is at its low. It will never end with the democrats in power, what incentive is their to work when everything is given to me from those who do work.
And for the record, just so you’re clear… I am not the messiah. Just an educated and confident young man that reads up, studies and then applies common sense when posting a thought. Too bad everyone doesn’t apply the same, but I guess that’s what keeps us coming back… Finding out just who’s going to be the next Futurerichguy

Now futurerichguy…

Huh, futurerichguy, that’s a funny name you’ve chosen, but not with the democrats in office you won’t be. I mean think about it, your answers to the countries problems are spend, spend, and spend while taxing the very people you wish to be?

But really, were not here to talk about your name, let’s get to business. With the “Doctor Fix” in your new plan… You sir are 100% correct when you say “this bill is not getting paid for with the "Doctor's Fix", and here’s why. The money saved on that idea was put back into the budget to pay for another part of the plan… Your party is double counting the savings. You see its real simple (everyone go slow so futurerichguy can follow along); if I give you something and tell you to save it, and then I take it away, but then ask for the same thing I just took from you, guess what… It aint there no more!

Next, you comment about “This bill is getting paid for by increasing the Medicare marginal income tax rate from ~1.35% to ~2.5% at the $250,000 per year threshold.” That will not cut it. There is not going to be enough money from the .5% tax on the decreasing upper class, so as we have all heard before, “Stuff rolls down hill…” the rest of the American people are down hill.

I can give you examples all day long, if you want on the taxes that we are going to incur due to this bill:
* Taxes on medical devices such as wheelchairs, breast pumps, and syringes used by diabetics for insulin injections. (Are you kidding me, I thought we were trying to make health care affordable? So let’s just tax the medical supplies…Idiots!)
* Taxes on sugar-sweetened beverages including non-diet soda and sports drinks. (That’s hitting everyone be honest!)
* Higher taxes on alcoholic beverages including beer, wine, and spirits. (Ok, Wisconsin, drinking… enough said!)
* A limit on contributions to health savings accounts. (That will help me, cut the money needed for people who need health care to pay for health care…What?)
* A limit on contributions to flexible spending arrangements. (Again less money for the little guy.)
*Fees on insured and self-insured health plans. (Want your own plan here’s a fee aka: tax)
* An increase in the payroll taxes on students. (First student loans, now payroll taxes, keep it up and no one will be able to afford to go to school; will all be a bunch’a dummies… Just think, the Democratic Party could survive then.)
* An extension of the Medicare payroll tax to all state and local government employees. (Furlough days, now more taxes… blah, blah blah)
* An increase in taxes on hospitals. (Guess who’s bill will that will be on?)
* An increase in the estate tax. (Huh… my house payment gets to go up Yippee!)
* A 5 percent tax on cosmetic surgery and similar procedures such as Botox treatments, tummy tucks, and face lifts. (Hollywood is screwed.)

Just waiting for the free smokes and fast food the libs will have to pass out so enough people die to keep Gov't health care anywhere close to solvent.

somewhere between Libertarian and Republican

The_One, leader and messiah of the Janesville conservative movement who actually writes legibly and in complete sentences, don't forget that even though 58% of dems in the Senate and 39% in the house voted for the Iraq Resolution, don't forget that the resolution wasn't a declaration of war. Bush was given the authority to use force only if diplomatic relations failed. The Iraq war falls squarely on the Bush administration.

Futurerichguy, I never said the_one was my messiah. Don't read into my post, please. I just found it easier to understand instead of watching you posters argue all the time. I was utterly confused. Thank you to all who had an understandable post, I learned a lot.

I believe something has to be done with health care, but not the government in charge.

Spark thanks for your thoughts also...

Justme46 and in_my_opinion

Thank you for your comments

WOW… Glad I checked in, where to start. Lets get gliver18 out of the way.

First off, genius this is a discussion on healthcare issues of today, not the Iraq war. However, I do love a good debate especially when the other person has no clue. Now you clam Bush is the cause of the Iraq war? Well your wrong, and here’s why.

A president of this nation dose not, nor will they ever have the authority to send this counties military into war, with out the approval of Congress. That year, the 107th Congress voted on military action against Iraq. Of those seated in the senate, 49 were republican and 50 were democrats (your team was winning at this point!), with one independent voting as a democrat. Out of the 50 democratic votes, 29 members of your party voted to go to war (that’s almost 60% of your senate members).

Here’s the thing, maybe you might remember a thing called “Checks and Balances…” at anytime this bill could have been killed in the Senate and we would have never left for war. Heck, they couldn’t even get enough votes together in their own party to win a filibuster. Your democratic leaders chose to vote the way they did and we are now at war. Stop blaming Bush it makes you look ignorant and uneducated…

Not a Republicrat.
Let's fix Health CARE
Step 1: Adjust Medicare eligibility age by 66 years, not by only 10 years.

Step 2: Merge ALL the Federal employees' health insurance options into ONLY Medicare.

Problem solved. As soon as federal judges, Sup. Ct. Justices, all Cabinet, House and Senate members, VP & Pres. (& all their spouces and children) are stuck with the same singler-payer system as normal humans, then those powerful politicians will agree to common sense improvements / reforms of that system.
Without proper movition, politicians have delayed fixing our single-payer medical care delivery system some 18 years, while their families are covered by a separate solid gold system. ( Maybe 100 years, if you count Teddy Roosevelt as a REFORMER!) Ron

Libertarian and for tort reform.

What I'm not ok with is sticking it to the corporations and employees that already have a solid plan in place. I agree there's issues with those that don't have it, but penalizing those that do and putting burden on compensation and future costs, etc. does nothing for the economy or jobs.

"an additional $300 per year, I'm OK with"
-
Same old song and dance. I'm ok with paying more AFTER I am required too.

Still haven't meet anyone with the I'd be willing to pay more for ...(whatever), or I'd be willing to pay higher taxes for ...(whatever), attitude willing to step up to the plate before MANDATED to pay anymore; shows weakness...so much for great ideas and leaders.

spark, I'm as upset about the northward spending on health-care as you, but I'm still not convinced that it will continue. Note, just a few years ago it was still conventional wisdom that real-estate would continue to go up. I do agree that this plan doesn't do a good job of controlling costs. Per the article below about this new plan costing families an additional $300 per year, I'm OK with that knowing that an additional 30 million will have health insurance that were without it before this bill.

For those 170 million people that have insurance through work. This is how the bill will effect you.

From Forbes:
The northward march of health spending--7% to 9% a year--will not abate because of this bill, and employer plans typically force employees to pick up about one-fourth of the cost. Three factors are at work that will push up costs. First, HMOs as an industry will have to pay a huge fee each year--$2 billion to start and eventually $10 billion. Those costs will be passed on to companies and their employees and could total $300 a year per family with private insurance. Second, the bill calls for all at-work plans to be generous to a certain point. That means that employers offering cheaper coverage, such as a high-deductible plan--will have to change and pass on those costs as well. Finally, those employees who have so-called Cadillac coverage but are not exempted from the bill's rules because of membership in a union or residence in a high-cost state will have their benefits taxed. At first this will be a small group, and even the 40% tax charged to HMOs (and likely passed on to customers in the form of higher premiums) on benefits worth more than $23,000 will not raise that much revenue. But after a decade of inflation, this excise tax could affect more employers, who would have to cut compensation, benefits or pass on the costs to the workers.

The health care fans should be very proud, Castro was happy you finally have what he gives his people...one step closer to mother cuba.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/...

Yes future, after you are proven wrong on the claim of what income level taxes will be imposed that is the best you have...truth bother you?

Only if your rich and can afford to travel.

Just realized, we can now go to Cuba, France, England, Canada and get the same kind of health care treatment they have. We've come a long way baby.

I see RAF is concerned about the 10% tax on tanning salons. That's actually pretty funny.

I am a republican in favor of health but not in its current form. Too much government intrusion

The One:

Wow! Thanks for learning before speaking. Now...if only we could teach some of these other people. :(

Here is something that makes free medical care not seem so great.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis...

Here is a question I would like all of you to ask your representatives in DC.
Why are you not receiving the same health care benefits we receive with this newly approved bill?
Would you be willing to pass an amendment doing that?
That would make me much more satisfied that this bill is a good one.

The bill is now law. Be men and own up to it girls!!

"outright falsifying that 250,000 and under will be taxed when Obama & Dems specify that it will those making over 250,000 that will be taxed."
-
More spin...

What about the tax on medical devices, there is no income limit tied to this. Or the tax on tanning salons, no income limits tied to this. Keep up your mantra of no one under 250grand will/are taxed more under Obama, while real Americans pay these, and I am sure more taxes that have yet to be uncovered in these bills; please keep looking out those rose colored glasses and pretend nothing changed.

This is a very good, and very reasonable mix of responses. If Republican elected officials would take the time to understand this and vote on their gut feeling for what is the right thing to do do this would have passed long ago. Of course, the GOP leadership would then block their reelection.

Specific Note to The_One and others concerned about Medicare. As best I can tell, the bulk of the cuts have been made to programs that were created in 2003 when Medicare Advantage was introduced. It is simply costing the taxpayer too much money. There are other very reasonable cuts in payments to hospitals since they will now have more card carrying patients. Drug costs should be less.

Well said (futurerichguy), I see you caught (The_One) redhanded in the spin zone, outright falsifying that 250,000 and under will be taxed when Obama & Dems specify that it will those making over 250,000 that will be taxed. I enjoyed the other statement too about 2-3 trillion dollars added to the deficit in the next 10 years. I think in the bill it is stated 860 Billion in 10 years. I wonder why that 5 trillion dollars added to the deficit during the BUSH years on unjust wars , 4,500 good soldiers died,and that didn't bother him. Must have selective memory

futurerichguy - Ah, yes more name calling. Glad we're all 12.
-
The point of Corporations that provide insurance is spot on. Just wait and see.

justme46, true your messiah The_One does use a few cute anecdotes, but the bottom line is this bill is not getting paid for with the "Doctor's Fix". This bill is getting paid for by increasing the Medicare marginal income tax rate from ~1.35% to ~2.5% at the $250,000 per year threshold. T-baggers typically don't stress that only those making more than $250,000 per year will be feeling the pain, if you call that pain.

Mar 25, 2010 at 12:19 p.m.
Mar 25, 2010 at 12:16 p.m.
Read these two posts by The_One. He/she has hit it right on the head. I for one find the posts very informative. Hard to understand any of this when some "posters" are bashing each other all over the place! I was very confused with this bill and now after reading The_One's posts, I have a better understanding. Thank you!

Spark,sorry if I am misreading you but I wish Republicans could be more like the Eisenhower Repubs in the 1950's. I am just concerned that the far right has gotten control of Repubs and it will end up destroying our country. Where are the responsible moderate Repubs, don't they see how dangerous these people are. Like I said in previous post I am glad that the racist KKK is out of our party. If I thought 100% Socialism (communism) was here I would disavow that faction of our party. Reason should tell us that you and I with others pool our money together (taxes) to build schools, roads, highways for our benefit. You could call that a little bit of socialism but I wouldn't call that communism and neither would a benefit like healthcare constitute communism

Correct me if I am wrong (mine) but after 9/11 when we were all united (Dems & Repubs)& we went over and defeated the evil Taliban (who were protecting El Quida), I thought that was a just war and was so proud to be an American, The whole world was on our side, countries like Kazakhstan & others in that area that I always thought hated us let us have bases over there to help defeat these awful people. But then the Right Wing took over and for political gain started false rumors & claims and got us into IRAQ, the rest of the world could see then how they were being used in an unjustified war and abandoned us.The original enemy (El Quida)is now hiding in Afghanistan and that is why I still support that war

If this health care is so good why is it that those in DC are not on the same plan as us people wake up

gliver18 - You obviously aren't grasping what I'm saying, so have a great day.

gliver18, I know what your saying but what about the comment made by our now president (which I voted for). I will have our troops out of Iraq by a certain date. Still there and many more troops in another country fighting for us. Now it looks like we will be in another country in another war shortly.

I admitted I made in mistake when I voted. Soon many more will do the same. It is getting terrible the way people are slamming each other because of who they like and dislike. Remember that is why are children are fighting for our country. Its OK to agree to disagree but the bashing has to stop.

Also Spark, we as Democrats know when we have racists in our mix we expel them. If you would study a little History, in the 1960's when Pres Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act he was told by the Republicans that he & the Dems had lost the south forever. That is when the Southern Dems became Repubs (good riddance), The KKK at that time was infiltrated in both parties but became solidly infused with the Repubs. Now here we are today with the Repubs so proud of the T-baggers, (who have traded the hooded white sheets for a suit and tie)

gliver18 - Great. Your 30 posts are complete paragraphs on the same subject which is bashing and hating Republicans. Get over yourself and debate without pure hate.

gliver18 - Do you understand that some people that don't agree with this bill, don't agree with it for factual reasons? Not because the Democrats put it in place? No because they hate the other party? That's the part you're having a really hard time grasping. This isn't about Bush or the War or the last Presidency. You could sit and go back through History and find something wrong with every Presidency. What is the point? We're talking about now. About a health care bill. I could care less what party you favor. Bashing the other party is useless. Stop taking it so personally. Read The_One's post below. He has very valuable points.

Sparky I would also like to say that you have over 2100 post's and AirBag has over 3000 post's & I have around 30 post's. I just want the truth, not over 5000 post's of FOX news spin talking points. looks to me like your the angry man with that many post's

I see your over here on this blog along with your buddy the RetiredAirBag. I just want the truth out on healthcare and Sparky you and the other T-baggers love to spin. If you are all concerned about the cost of healthcare why were you not during the 8 years of Bush with the unjustified war in Iraq. The national debt jumped by 5 trillion dollars and not one word from you. Now Obama & Dems want to help people at a cost of if I'm correct here 860 Billion dollars spread over 10 years, that would be 86 Billion dollars a year. That would be a great bargain I think. I was thinking that maybe we could talk RetiredAirBag into going over to Iraq with all his military experience and try to find out where those (WMD's) are at. Remember that was one of those absolute true facts coming from the right wing Republicans that would justify the war. I'm sure he believes WMD's are still there because FOX news says so

You can count on one thing. If you have job that provides insurance. You can bet it won't be long that what ever the employer has to pay for your insurance, it will be added as a benifit (income) and we will have to pay taxes on that amount. So lets use the dollar amount of $10,00.00 a year that is paid for your insurance. You will have to pay the tax on the insurance benifits. Hang on, it's coming.

gliver18 - One could say the same about you posting over here. You're angry again with your stereotypes and classifying everyone in one sum as evil or KKK because they are republican or don't agree with you or this health care bill. By the way the KKK is primarily made up of democrats. By they way, you are also retired. A very angry retiree at that.
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I for one agree our health care system has issues, but don't feel this bill will solve the issue. Health care is expensive. That is part of the big issue. I don't see how this is going to decrease the costs which is the real issue.

My God, I see the old RetiredAirBag is posting over here too. Over 3050 posts and claims he's the only one who knows the true facts based on his sources over there at FOX (FAUX) news. I tell ya, this man has inhaled too much sewer gas and it has filtered into his brain, he can't tell fact from fiction. T-Baggers, keep up with the intimidation because most polls now show that most Americans see what your really all about. A lot of concerned Americans saw the pictures of the Republican House members on the capitol balcony waving on the violent protesters, encouraging T-baggers to commit mayhem in the gallery with angry shouts and vulgar threats, race baiting etc..., can't hide from the camera's can they

I'm an independent in favor of health care reform, but not "ObamaCare." I'd prefer a free market approach. People should be able to shop around for the best insurance rates or not even buy insurance at all. There are plenty of people that are self-insured and only pay cash when they go to the doctor. As a result, they only pay a fraction of what people with insurance pay.

NVgrf... To continue

This bill does nothing more then empower the strong (Drug Companies and Insurers), and punish the weak, (the American people and the states they live in... Unless your sate representatives sold their sole in a nice little side deal that is). Taxes on the middle class making less then $250,000 a year (thank you very much Mr. O'Bama), taxing student loans to pay for portions of the bill (thank you again Mr. O'Bama)…

Imagine that, taxing people trying to better themselves through education, in this crappy economy with no jobs available so you, the democrat, can pay for health care that you just can’t afford.

That doesn't even touch the increase in cost that we will have when the true numbers of unreported workers and companies that drop coverage start funneling into this government sponsored welfare program for business. By the time this term is done the economy will collapse and the dollar won't even be worth wiping you democratic bottom with!

NVgrf, Come on now use some common sense...

This is a long one so try to stay with me!

Now, this use to be a GM town, you should be familiar with contract talks... What are the two biggest sticking points on any union contract negations? Waiting... Waiting...Wages and Insurance.

Now let us say I spend $1,000,000 a year for all my employees to be insured. Now because of the great bill your democrats signed I only am fined $100,000 a year for not insuring my employees and there is no one to enforce the fine, if I pay it I just saved $900,000 a year. Your a fool not to see that as a possibility.

Now your comment about "First, no employer has cancelled employees insurance because of any fine." Now you are correct, but guess why? (Waiting... Waiting...) Because the bill has not taken effect yet!

As soon as this pile-o-crap takes effect companies will start weeding out insurance plans to there employees, and avoid paying sky rocketing premiums.

For your second worthless point, “the plan will help lower the deficit in the next ten years.” Really… how’s that? Democrats say that the bill will cost $940 billion over the next ten years…claming to cut the deficit by $138 billion. However, the truth is, that will only be possible IF and it's a big IF you cut $500 billion from Medicare and throw in the “Doctors Fix”. What…What’s that? Not familiar with the “Doctors Fix”, well, let me explain what your party is doing… It’s a $200 billion dollar plan that you democrats thought of, that would save by paying doctors less when they treat Medicare/Medicaid patients. The problem with that is two fold… First, later on in the bill, the savings from your plan is thrown back into the bill, but the democrats conveniently “forgot” to remove that from their mathematical formula when figuring out the cost. Second, major hospitals are starting to deny Medicare patients because of the “doctor fix”. Therefore, by saying that democrats have lowered the deficit is nothing but typical smoke and mirrors.

However, there are some winners with his bill, first the drug companies. Although they are taxed in this bill, drug companies will have brand name exclusivity. This means for the next 12 years, after a name brand drug comes out, a generic version will not be available to compete. Therefore, for 12 years you pay an inflated price for a name brand drug. Imagine the government saying to you everyday, that you need to wear an Armani suit everywhere you go, when all you ever wanted was to throw on a pair of shorts and a t-shirt to do your yard work or run to the store.

The second winner is the health insurers. Taken out of this pile of crap, was the authority of the government to control health care premiums. Non capped premiuns can't be figured in the cost of this bill. At the 11th hour, this little tidbit was deleted and with 2700 pages who’d be the wiser.

Poll results indicate many welfare-taking drains on productive society looking for "free" healthcare !

Wow darwin1, I think you just earned yourself the Darwin award for your ignorant comment.
liberty; 1 : the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e : the power of choice
2 a : a right or immunity enjoyed by prescription or by grant : privilege b : permission especially to go freely within specified limits.
Seems to me according to the definition Liberty and Freedom are one of the same. Liberty gives you the freedom to post ignorant comments that you post on here.
ACLU a true American Institution? If it is such a great institution then where were they when SEIU thugs beat the crap out of a young disabled wheel chair bound black man who was selling Don't Tread On Me flags outside of a town hall meeting? ACLU was no wheres to be found to defend this young man yet they are so wonderful.

Oh Darwin you just don't get it do you? The government should not be able to tax or fine anyone who does not have ins. And they made the IRS responsible to do all the collecting. Because according to our constitution they are able to access resonable taxes. There is nothing resonable about this bill and it moves us closer to the socialist state the Obama has been aiming for all along. When he talks about his he sounds like Hugo Chavez or one of the Castro brothers. The Fed has never taken control of anything and made it better. I see SS is going to be paying out more than they take in next year, Could that be because they took 52 million out of SS to pay for thier new health care boondoggle???? Damn liberal socialist there should be a season on em.And GVgrl we are going to need something to lower the defict after the looney left get done. And if you think this bill is going to make money you are sooooo drinking the kool aid

NVgrf still waiting for you to show any government entitlement program that never went over budget...

NVgrf - you should be careful of the Democratic pill you are swallowing. If you think that this Health Care reform is truly going to REDUCE the deficit, you are more trusting than I am. No employer has cancelled an insurance plan for their employees YET because the fine has taken effect yet. From what I can understand of the bill, the employer doesn't have to cancel the employer paid health plan, but if they have just one employee opt to go with the exchange plan then the employer will get a fine.

the one - -First, no employer has cancelled an employees insurance because of any fine. Second, the plan will help lower the deficit in the next ten years. More scare tatics from the right. When is enough enough? So typical of the Republicans...all attack, no plan.

Put me in the Republican category who wants health care reform... However, not this pile of crap!

I want my bill to first, not allow my employer to cancel its employees insurance, because the "fine" will be much cheaper then insuring them.

Second, I don't want my bill drafted behind closed doors, where side deals with individual states, or companies have to be made just to get the stupid thing passed.

I want my bill to not attack Medicare or Medicaid, and fix the root of the problems namely the insurance companies and drug companies, that are gouging prices.

Lastly, I want my bill to not raise our deficit another one to two trillion dollars over the next ten years, for only six years of this plan.

But hey, that’s the democrats way... Bigger government, spend, spend, spend, and blame it on the other guy!

Now, I will be force feed this bill, have to deal with it until we can remove the democrats, but by then the damage will be done.

Thank you
Mr. O’bama

American in favor of health care reform.

"Who are you to determine what people can afford?"

RAF, as it is in every other tyrannical social philosophy, arrogance is an essential element of the collectivist mentality.

This is not perfect that is for sure. I mean seriously, who is going to police the who has/doesn't have insurance; and write out the fine much less try to collect it. What a nightmare. I think it would be more important to set mandates on auto insurance or driver insurance with all the idiots on the road without any insurance.

I'm Democratic for the most part, though I do not agree with party lines, but the best interest of the greatest number of people. Only time will tell what this will have on healthcare, insurance industry, and citizens. I think you will now see employers cutting health care plans from benefits as it saves them oodles of cash. That in and of itself will be a huge negative that could crash and burn.

There needs to be healthcare reform. But it needs to start with the insurance companies. Private insurance premiums for healthcare are excessively expensive. To afford it myself and daughter for a few months, cost me a monthly premium of $330, plus $20 office visit co-pay, 80/20 AFTER $2500 deductible PLUS $15/prescription. I can tell ya one thing, I didn't go to the doctor much. I couldn't afford to with all the money the insurance company sucked out of my wallet.

Leave it to darwin1 to redefine the word liberty.

His thinking: Liberty on the other hand requires eternal vigilance and for everyone to look out for each other.

Thinking people know liberty is the freedom to live your life in the way that you want, without interference from other people or the authorities.

"Where in the bill does it state that the government will make you pay for something you can't afford?"
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Who are you to determine what people can afford?

No party affiliation in favor of health care reform, but not the way it is happening. I think some of the ways it is being obtained are wrong.

NVgrf: Guess you believe only one side has the right to an opinion or belief and if it happens to disagree with yours, then that person or group should be called morons. But you must feel better bringing them down to your level.

supertruck...You have the Tea Party morons and you call Democrats bozos. Please stop. My sides are killing me.

Im also an independent, I favor some sort of health care reform but NOT this. This is preposterous.

Senator Herb Kohl will be included in my government reform package by not voting for any Democrat-Socialist! You Bozo's are out of here!

I am in favor of health care reform but not government health care takeover.
There is too much in this bill that says the HHS will determine-------------not the patient, not the doctor, not the insurance company, the government sets the qualifications for your medical treatment.

Holly what are you talking about? What you pay will be based on income criteria like taxes. You know taxes right? Where in the bill does it state that the government will make you pay for something you can't afford? Maybe you're thinking that you can avoid paying and then just show up at the emergency room and no one will say anything and you can mooch off those of us with jobs.

This country was founded on liberty not freedom. They are very very different. Freedom is what naive people say because they think nothing has repercussions, you're not free to yell fire in a crowded theater or lie to make money like Mr. Madoff. Liberty on the other hand requires eternal vigilance and for everyone to look out for each other like when the ACLU, a truly American institution, defends Rush Limbaugh.

I'm all for everyone having health care coverage; however I am not supporting the fines that would be imposed if you cannot afford to get it. That's absurd. What part of FREEDOM does that support? The freedom to do exactly what your government tells you to? That is neither republican, nor democratic...it's communist. The last I checked, this was America. Something is definately wrong!

nice way to word your poll,,,definitely a way to skew the results,,,Are you "For" reform or "Against" reform---
I am an Independent who is for reform,,,but not a whole scale scrapping of health care as we know it,,,If this doesn't break the bank, I don't know what will!!!!

The government which is a mess is taking too much control of our everyday lives and to me that is unacceptable.

We do not need big brother taking care of us

To thekid3477...
Isn't it nice that totellthetruth proved your point for you!

I'm just an average, middle class, American citizen that wishes both parties would work together to enforce what the citizens really want rather than to line their pockets with riches. Neither party seems to be better than the other.

Considering Rock County is almost 2 to 1 in the total number of registered Dems vs Repubs, I doubt this poll is getting a fair sampling

no party affiliation and on the fence but lean to health care reform mostly cuz all the right seems to have are scare tactics...