Gazettefan. It is impossible to inspire you. You have an unchangeable mind set. You are fixated on user names and you can’t get past the old testament. If me telling you people to stop being rude with your “ignorance” comments, then you are the ones with the problems. As far as the paranoia. It is FACT that when people start calling you Amigos ignorant, their accounts are all of a sudden deleted. Coincidence? I don’t think so. Every time you get insulted, here comes the censor man. You on the other hand can insult, call people names, and do what ever you do and there is nothing. So who is against the first amendment? Me for telling you people to stop being rude or shut up? Or your friends deleting accounts?

You try to say you are not somehow associated with the censor man but 12,000 plus comments. Mostly rude and disrespectable is proof enough that you are. I was even deleted once for pointing that out. I doubt if this user name will be around for too long now.

Or maybe the censor man is an atheist and give you all the tolerance you do not deserve. Either way. My paranoia (As you call it) has foundation.

Like I said. I am willing to talk about faith when you people start talking without your famous insults.
And for the record. I and “EVERY” other person who has had conversations with you have commented on your rudeness.

oneheck......, as under your multiple user names you are only adept at stringing a lot of ignorant and rude words and sentences together while ranting about imaginary ignorance and rudeness -not to mention having those sentence peppered with your usual dose of paranoia. Why can't you write at length about the relevant issues of faith? Why can't you be as tolerant as Dr. Ragotzy?

Try actually responding to the related issues broached here. Attempt to refrain from telling people they don't have First Amendment rights. Your problem with the First Amendment reveals some of the worst of religiosity. If this were truly a christian nation -especially if it were headed by you, there'd be no First Amendment. Your behavior here is a glaring example of that. You exhibit the dangerous emotionality of believers.

But if you truly want to adhere even more to the finding or re-finding faith issue in the story above, then, convey to us how you found and or re-found your faith. Inspire us.

Poobah said- The fact you would ask that question shows a tremendous ignorance of how faith has injured/killed not only atheists but Christians and people of other religions as well

My faith has killed no one. That would be your ignorant thinking. Not mine

Poobah said. Ask any gay person, atheist or not, how faith has been used to foment hatred of homosexuals. Gods law is clear on homosexuals. Once again my faith has not hated or mistreated the gays, atheist or not.

On the wars on race. My faith does not discriminate nor cause wars.

I am not ignorant of the fact there has been wars, death, and every other sin committed under the guise of religion. So stop being “RUDE” with you “IGNORANT” rant. And try to discuss my faith that has cause you personally no harm. Either act right or SHUT UP!!!

Jerry and Pat are neither anyone I would gain my faith from. Nor Jimmy Swaggart Nor most of the evangelists out there. My faith is not bound by the Catholic religion either. Faith is personal. And if you want to read every negative article you can find on the negativity of faith, I’m sure you can keep youself busy. I suppose I can start of by telling you of your ignorance for reading all that negative stuff but I would like to keep it civil. People tend to get deleted when they start calling any one of the 3 amigos ignorant. 3 Amigos are Gazettefan, Poobah, and Prounion…. So keep it civil if at all possible and I will do the same.

oneheckofaguy said, "How does faith hurt the atheist?"

The fact you would ask that question shows a tremendous ignorance of how faith has injured/killed not only atheists but Christians and people of other religions as well. Ask any gay person, atheist or not, how faith has been used to foment hatred of homosexuals that has led to a litany of discriminatory laws, the stigma of homosexuality and the death and maiming of many people who were either homosexual or thought to be homosexuals. American "Christian" leaders are still actively pushing legislation in Uganda to make homosexuality a crime punishable by death. [ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24... ]

This has not been limited to homosexuals. Faith has been used to instigate wars between religions and between nations. It has been used to foster discriminatory laws against members of certain races.

Your ignorance of the devastating ways in which faith has been utilized is astounding. I recommend you read "Stranger at the Gate: To be Gay and Christian in America" by Mel White [ http://www.melwhite.org/stranger-at-the-... ] to inform yourself. Mel White is a former speechwriter for Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and others. He wrote the vitriol they used to exploit homosexuality as a fundraising wedge issue. That is, until he came out as a gay man and exposed the inner workings of their organizations.

Why would anyone care if someone has faith? How does faith hurt the atheist?

You atheists wanted to talk about "Faith" ok lets talk about it. Answer the 2 simple questions.

Gfan, my username is notthismonkey.
Once again, I ashamedly do not know of the scripture in Deuteronomy, however I believe that a similar warning is given in Revelation at the very end, so I would have to concur. I don't think that I have changed any meanings. I have tried to explain the differences in times as well as testaments (innadequately, I'm afraid). I am also unawae of any contradictions in the Bible. A progression yes, but no contradictions, and the progression is explained.
Disregarding the horror of the Old Testament, focus on the 'real world' horror now. What guidelines are given in the New Testament to deal with those? Do they make sense to you?
I'm sure if you read the New Testament, the teachings of Christ, you will find no justification for attrocities against mankind, and so horrible behaviour is not permissable. I can't apologise for the actions of judgemental hypocrites, I can't apologise for Christians gone astray. They have their sins and I have mine to seek forgiveness for. I don't klnow what you are looking for but I hope you find it.
I think that you actually have all the answers that you need, intelligent as you are. Feel them out, dig the dirt out of the nooks and crannies that you would rather not look into. Goodnight.

notamonkey, it says in Deuteronomy that the lord's words can't be changed. The burden the bible toting believer carries is that he has to believe everything in the bible despite its contradictions. You can't pick and choose, and you can't change meanings.

And if god is not bound by time, why does he do crazy things merely because of the timeline humans live in?

You are attempting to explain and justify all the horror in the bible within the world of the bible itself. None of it applies to the real world. But when people think it does, every manner of horrible behavior is permissible. Like what your fellow believers in the Abrahamic god do when they murder thousands of people in modern times.

Nope, God didn't tell me that. It is a succession, an order of events, as I touched upon. The Old Testament relates a history that shows us (among other things) that we cannot keep the commandments. It reveals a need for babtism to release us symbolically from origional sin, and for redemption from the sins that we continually commit, through the sacrifice of God's son incarnate. The New Testament is the history of the latter, as I am sure you know. The many Jewish laws that are in the Old Testament are discarded, if you will, by our saviour, Jesus Christ. A new Temple was built, in Him.

notthismonkey said, "Then comes the New Testament, which is definitely much more important to study."

How do you know that? Did god tell you that?

I read the Numbers verses that you suggested. Yes God did command Moses to kill all of the Midianites with the exception of the virgin women, as revenge for infecting the isrealites with sin and idolitry. What we read in the Old Testament is in fact the Old Testament. Atonement for sin was death, be it a sacrifice or literally your own death. In the New Testament, which the Old lays the ground for, Jesus who is perfect atones for our sins. No more sacrifices. I understand your consternation, however, Christian faith obviously didn't occur until after the crucfiction and resurrection of Christ. Having not been around before Christ and not being a theologan, I can't explain mindset, customs, or motivations of people in Moses' time. A threat to God's chosen people was at hand and it was answered, in the that time's appropriate way. Then comes the New Testament, which is definitely much more important to study, unless of course you only want make arguments that God is 'evil'.

By the way, notmonkey, you're mischaracterizing the posts of others. That's familiar too.

Yeah, OK, pal, just as long as no one calls you late for dinner.

notmonkey, how'd you acquire faith without reading the bible. There's something familiar about that.

Whatever, be sure to get back to us on those verses.

So far I have been called unintelligent,
uncaring, nuts, and been ranked with pedophiles. Have I come off angry, rude, insensitive? Have I called any of you names or suggested that you were unintellegent or lacking in sanity?
Prounion, I will look up the verses directly, thank you for your response.

Well, not...monkey just signed on today. And his first post is right after oneheck.....'s last post. Now they're can both Sybil-off to Sunday School to learn about the god they already have faith in.

Either way, monkey is a joker who isn't astute enough to realize that his obsession with the vulnerability of young people reveals his weird interest in a classic step in the pedophilic activities of his church.

NTM - Numbers 31 and 32 are great examples of god's grace. Numbers 31 orders the genocide and slavery and if I remember correctly 32 outlines the scale. Many other examples abound, a xtain poster once challenged me to name 20 - he yielded at 10 or 12 horrific acts by the most holy.

As far as I am concerned - and I don't mean this to be rude, I am just honestly giving you my perspective - it would be like me saying to you - why don't you believe in Santa Clause - did he turn his back to you? I know that must have been a terrible feeling.

Another way to express what its like for me is that you disregard the hindu elephant god, you don't wonder what that god or the thousands of others think of you or pray to them, they are not real, same for me with your god.

My mind is content and clear. I do not need to fear demons or satan or hellfire. I am free to inquire about anything I see in the world without any aprehension that I might learn something that might go against my beliefs, in fact the more that happens the better.

I will be away from my computer for a while, so I apologise for any future delayed responses. God Bless!

I am ashamedly unaware of the parts in the Bible that endorse rape, slavery and murdering children. Would you please let me know where these verses are?
The imagery you use makes me think that you have suffered a great deal, I sympathise. If you thought at some point that God turned His back on you, I know that is an awful feeling.

NTM - the parts of the bible that I find the most amazing that someone could read and then say that the main charater aka god is a good guy are the ones that endorse rape, slavery, and genocide. Amazing the ways that xtians try to justify that barbaric bronze age behavior as anything other than horrible and immoral - all in fear of calling their imaginary god's behavior what it is - evil.

Does god talk back to you to give you the answers - from your last post to GF it sounded like you would pray about the babies and it would make you feel better about it. Of course that ducks the point that your god could not be all loving, all knowing and all powerful all at the same time if he designed a world and allows babies to die a slow painful death in their praying mother's arms and sits by and does nothing. What makes more sense is that there is no god - especially in light of the lack of evidence for one.

Then again if you look at history man used to live much shorter brutal lives, likely dieing of tooth decay - nice intelligent design huh? That lasted for hundreds of thousands of years before god showed up and started talking to folks and ordering them to slaughter children and rape female virgins.

There is always this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcr...

"And what comfort do you receive from your faith when you think of the thousands of babies who are abandoned to suffering and death by your god each day?"
My answer most likely won't satisfy you, Gfan. It is a question brought up over and over again. To put it simply, the comfort I recieve is from God. That doesn't take away the suffering of children, I know. While God does allow these things to happen, He doesn't make them happen. We are given free will, what we do with that is up to us. What circumstances brought the suffering upon innocent children, I do not know. I'm not sure where this example came from either, maybe earlier in the thread? I'll admit, I have't read all of it, but most.
There are suffering people everywhere, always have been. Does it make me angry with God? Sometimes. Does it frustrate me? Often. What could possibly make these things okay? I have no idea. I know that I can't solve all of the world's problems, I'm in good shape if I can solve a few of my own!
I also know that if I tell you that we can't possibly know God's plan, that you won't be satisfied with that either.
What I can say is this: If you are dissatisfied with your life, if you feel there is something missing; if you are frustrated with the questions that weigh on your soul, I am not the one to ask for direction, you know where this is going, right?
You my friend, can choose any path you want.

I'm not a doctor or clergy. I didn't mean to 'creep' you out, sorry. I guess sarcasm and name calling is what I was refering to as toxic. I don't think the answer to my question is in the previous post, except by Prounion. Of course you don't have to answer me, especially if it is creepy.

Maybe you're a doctor of some kind.

notthismonkey, your focus on psychologizing a person's childhood is creepy. Are you clergy?

You describe the comments by non believers as toxic and you want to know why they don't believe.

Here's a suggestion: While you're reading comments that you claim are toxic, those same comments contain the answer to your question. Wow.

northmonkey, no young person with a healthy intelligence can be anything but bored with religious indoctrination.

When a young person with a healthy intelligence gets older, that intelligence is applied to analyzing religion. The end point of that analysis reveals religion as dangerous to any culture in more than a few ways.

Notice the cognitive impairment of some of the more vociferous believers on this thread.

I suspect that if you had to choose who to have a substantial conversation with (on any subject), you'd choose an atheist over some of the believers on this thread. If you don't know that yet, go back and read their comments.

And what comfort do you receive from your faith when you think of the thousands of babies who are abandoned to suffering and death by your god each day?

Thank you for your honesty Prounion, and for not attacking me :). Having read the Bible myself, I have a hard time understanding how that would turn you against it, but I'n not into arguing. I'm sorry the Christians that you knew back then didn't have answers for you. I hope you will allow me to say one thing 'unscathed', Christians seldom have the answers, try earnestly asking God. Thats all. Good day.

I'll answer NTM - I was a christian as a child, kids believe what their parents believe - which is why you find your particular brand of god touching so many souls around here and Islam's in the Middle East and so on.

Two things happend - I read up at my local christian book store about the process of evolution and started cross referencing thier sources, determined that those books were nonsense and then read actual scientific texts on biology and other sciences - all logical, all interwoven and I didn't have to mentally bend over backwards or deny reality to consider how things came to be.

The second thing that happened is that I read the bible. Really read it. If you have been on these boards long you will see that atheists tend to quote the bible more than christians, there is a reason for that - we have read it.

I asked alot of questions to christians back then - wait till your dead and ask god was the most frequent answer - or they would twist and bend and lean to try to justify the horrors their god endorsed and ordered.

Spinmaster, I get it, it isn't any of my business, but the toxicity of their language makes me wonder. They know they don't have to answer obviously, but if they were willing to share, it would be appreciated. I know people who really don't care either way (which sounds somewhat like yourself?, judging from this one post), who just avoid discussion of religion all-together, but these gentlemen(women), seem to be almost agitated, which is why I am curious.

monkey man: Sometimes there are just things you believe in (or not).

It's nobody's business as to how people arrive there.

One of my favorite sayings is "You have the right to believe what you want; I have the right to believe it's ridiculous."

That can go either way. To each their own.

No one here is going to argue their way into agreement. You can all continue to try to make others feel or look stupid, but most likely no one will change their minds. I am curious about what has made Poobah, Gfan, and Prounion so anti-Christian; not for arguments sake, I just want to understand. I don't mean an argument about proof of existence, only what brought you to your conclusions; whether you were raised with your current values, or if otherwise, what circumstances brought you to where you are now?

Poobah, I'm sorry you feel that way. Maybe you would answer the question posed to Gfan. Were you raised by athiests, or agnostics? If not, what turned you against Christianity with such profound conviction?

notthismonkey see,

notthismonkey do.

What an appropriate name for a someone clinging to beliefs nurtured by the mimicry of the religious meme machine.

Hopefully you were not raised as an athiest, and you will still have memories of the peace and comfort you felt as a child knowing that your Heavenly Father loves you. Hopefully you will realize that He still loves you, and you will let Him guide you and give you the Peace you once had.

Maybe none of that is the case. Were you raised as an athiest?

Just wondering if there was some specific time, or thought that made you decide that Christianity is bad. Was it a gradual thing gnawing away at you, or a loss that couldn't be explained?

I asked you a question. I don't mean any harm. Just curious as to what set it off for you.

northmonkey, did the Nazi's have to do something directly to you for you to be opposed to them?

Are you aware that any insane thought that a human can have can be rationalized by the written source for belief in the Abrahamic god of jews, muslims, and christians?

Are you willing to have something bogus like creationism taught in public schools?

Do you want taxpayers to pay for christian education? Because if you do, you'll also have to be in favor of tax payers paying for muslim schools, right?

why won't you respond to me gfan? What is your religious background?

Study why the Founders didn't form a governmental christian nation -or any state religion.

So really, what has turned you so passionately against Christianity? Were you once a member of a church and witnessed some hypocracy?

Yes - absolutly - talk openly about faith and religion - lets explore those ideas and see how they match up with reality.

Are you really go-green/believeme? How have you been? Why the new names?

If you are indeed a new person - how did you come about your faith?

oneheck....., multiple user names are your m. o. Stop projecting.

As for your multiple bannings: You are not taking responsibility now anymore than you did way back when.

And you certainly did need prounion's lesson on the First Amendment. You're the one who wants people to refrain from it. If you want to live where religion can't be discussed, move to an islamic county -those places share your belief in your Abrahamic god.

Challenging the inherent dangers of religious belief by questioning religion period is very important to a free society. You should know that by now.

Your off-the-mark comments about being picked-on are only more avoidance of why, according to you, your god is responsible for the thousands of babies who die each day. If you want to defend something, next time choose something that doesn't carry horrible baggage if you can't handle the full responsibility of your point of view.

Questioning faith -period- relates to Doctor Regotsy's story. So does your gem of a story as to how you arrived at (or returned to) your faith when you were 17.

If you're so concerned about relevance, kindly recount that story on this thread.

Just as important, talk about religion/faith directly. Or, take your own advice and shut up. Keep in mind, though, I don't want you to shut up. Talk about faith/religion.

Gfan, are you so vehemently opposed to Christian faith because of something bad that happened in your past? Do you feel as though you are being persecuted for your own belief? I can't imagine why someone would feel so negatively about Christianity. I can understand if you have been dissapointed or hurt by someone who proclaims this faith but falls short of what the Bible teaches. People are not perfect, people of faith fail, sin, hurt other people, etc. God is perfect and all knowing, not us.

Prounion. You speak with gazettefans exact words. And you “Always” show up at just the right moment. First off, Thanks for the history lesson on free speech.
So because Dr Ron has a spiritual belief, and even though this article doesn’t even mention the word god. You feel it’s ok to rant on about your delusional baby killer? You people look for every good story so you can rush in and try to make a mockery of the good story.
Are you people really that miserable in your personal life that you have to try to destroy faith?
I thought you were only against god. But your against spiritual faith also. The Indians had faith of a different sort. Do you condemn them too?

One heck - you mention you would like it for GF to keep his views to himself - there were severe punishments for folks like GF expressing those views in the not too distant past, of course some would like those punishments reinstated.

However - as it becomes more common that folks discuss these issues and read the bible - the number of people wishing to silence folks like GF dwindles. Your ilk really needs to get to children early and consistantly for your delusion to be passed on, that happens less and less.

A belief is a weakness in itself... Why does one need a belief? If you want to live happy and free dont have any beliefs. It seems that a belief is just a self inflicted wound that does nothing but cause worry and stress or an escape from reality.

Gazettefan. We all know that your close knit ties with the gazette that one must be careful how they respond to you. I would rather you keep your thoughts to yourself but that will never happen. As far as not answering poobah. he has never asked a serious question. He made accusations in questions form but never really asked a serious question. As for you. I see your new comment that you like to keep repeating over and over is this (it's no surprise that you don't know the meaning of what you wrote) When did you start using that one? As far as understanding. If you can't figure out who I am talking about when I am talking about someone it is because you think to hard to try and understand something that is simple to understand. Try to figure out what I just said there. That will take you awhile. How did you get Mongo deleted? I didn't see anything he said that was bad enough to get deleted. People get deleted alot around you... STRANGE!!! HUH???

RUSerious, to clarify further: In the matter of why god doesn't stop the deaths of those babies, you say you don't know, right?

While oneheck....... maintains that god lets them die as a continuation of the punishment for god having been ticked-off a few thousand years ago. Right, oneheck.........?

By the way, oneheck......, it's a habit of yours under your multiple user names to not respond directly to what someone says. You're doing the same thing with poobah's cogent comments. He's making an effort to help you concentrate. Focus.

And of course you're dodging the matter of your god killing babies everyday, with your nonsensical fixation on other planets. That ruse is also a give-away. Get serious.

Speaking of serious: RUSerious, under other user names on other stories, oneheck......, said that the babies are dying because man ticked-off god a few thousand years ago. He found that biblical "information" by surfing the net. His explanation is similar to yours, but I think you mean man is responsible for those deaths but in another way, right?

(I'll get to your other comments when I can.)

oneheck......, it's no surprise that you don't know the meaning of what you wrote even when it is explained to you.

It's no surprise because your comment is classic GOGREEN61, BELIEVEME, and TEMPLEOFGOD etc. etc. etc. I knew it was you from the beginning, so, I was certain I would fully expose your attempt to hide with my christians in prison comment. Hence my first sentence above.

By the way, it's respectful to refer to the good doctor as Doctor Ragotzy.

Welcome back and be careful; we don't want to lose you again.

Oh, one more thing, you haven't read the bible either. Surfing the net for stuff doesn't count.

oneheckofaguy, you have a very inquisitive mind when it comes to what others believe. It's too bad you aren't as inquisitive about, and willing to critically evaluate, your own beliefs. Let me take your questions one by one.

1) "What is your purpose here?" I have no idea what you mean by "here."

2) "To accuse a man for his faith in a spiritual lifestyle?" No.

3) "Or is it to condemn him because you don’t have faith?" No.

4) "Are you backing up your friend Mongo?" I don't know Mongo, don't consider Mongo a friend and have had differences of opinion with him in the recent past.

5) "Do you believe in aliens?" No, I don't "believe in" aliens. I do, however, think there is some probability of lifeforms (aliens) on other planets, but I have no scientific proof of that so I will not state, "Aliens exist," or "Aliens existed before the laws of physics," or "Aliens created everything." Sound familiar?

6) "I see he wisely chose to leave. He even deleted his name. He must really be ashamed to be associated with the atheists. His departure was awful quick. How can he do that? Maybe it was a miracle?" Because of your skipping around and not being clear about who "he" is, I will guess you're fixated on Mongo again. Only the Gazette staff can delete an account and they will not delete an account simply because a person asks for it to be deleted. Accounts are generally deleted because of a comment(s) that violated their terms of use.

GFan 2: I let God off the hook for letting bad things happen? If I don't write another 76 paragraphs telling you what I think about that, you'll say I am evading the question. I'd predict you're about to say it right now. But I told you before, that's what he is asking of me (and you, but you're doing it without being asked, right?) and everyone else. I truly believe those innocent babies deserve more, can have more, and will have the tranquility they deserve; how or when is not in my realm of knowledge (I never claimed omniscience), but it depends on us if we are to see any of it here on Earth. I think we are supposed to refurbish that gift I talked about.
I told you, I don't hold humans to a higher moral standard (as if THEY care what I think), I hold them to using the capability of the moral standard that they were born with. Knowing right from wrong, and doing their best to live life accordingly. Man can do better than he is doing. Don't you ever watch the news and are amazed at the lack of cooperation all over the world? And I mean among people of all types. Can you imagine if every single person on Earth tried his best to get along with every other person on Earth? Can you imagine how much good could be done? Am I naïve, childish, simple minded? If so, then I wish everyone was. (And please refrain from suggesting I am all of those things for being a Christian; I already know many of you think that.) How about if there were no Christians; could you imagine it then and think it was a good thing?
Now, where was I...probably about to get banned for my ridiculously long posts that still fall short of what you're asking.

Gazettefan, I'll preface what I'm saying by telling you I KNOW both "sides" are capable of sarcasm, spite, and smart remarks. You don't have to remind me. But you could probably acknowledge that the Christians (I'm talking about this situation only right now) would have nothing to be that way for if Christianity wasn't being made light of. Who would we be reacting to?
Ok-I'm sure we both know you can't turn your "Christian" on and off like a light bulb. You either are, or you're not (though a person can convert one way or another for whatever reason-but that can't be what you're talking about (?)). And I didn't say I don't believe "christians do bad things", but a TRUE Christian wouldn't practice bad things continuously as a rule. They'd repent and do better. They'll never perfect it. But they can try. I sure know there are Christian low-lifes, numbskulls and who knows what else, but if you think that most of us think you can rob, cheat, murder... then ask for forgiveness and expect it, then start all over the next day, you're wrong. You can't really use "forgiveness" like a get out of jail free card. Forgiveness is for the truly repentant, and the truly repentant do not do it that way. The truly sick might, but that's another story. Though you don't acknowledge God, don't you think that Christians would know a fake repentant can't fool God? They're either using Pascal's wager, or for some reason it's for the sake of onlookers (like a parole agent or prison warden, or even mom). If they're not carrying the weight of what they did, it isn't necessarily because their sins have been forgiven. But you're not suggesting it is only, or primarily, Christians who do bad, are you?

Poobah. What is your purpose here? To accuse a man for his faith in a spiritual lifestyle? Or is it to condemn him because you don’t have faith? (The “man” I speak of is Dr Ron. I don’t want you to get any more confused.)
Are you backing up your friend Mongo? Do you believe in aliens? I will take it that your silence to the questions means you do. I see he wisely chose to leave. He even deleted his name. He must really be ashamed to be associated with the atheists. His departure was awful quick. How can he do that? Maybe it was a miracle?

oneheckofaguy said, "You have trouble understanding."

Yes, I agree people have trouble understanding you, but that's only because you don't understand yourself. It takes some time to get you to express what you truly think. But don't feel like your alone in that struggle. Religion is great at instilling so much guilt in people that they find it difficult to express their true beliefs.

Nice try poobah. You have trouble understanding. I get it. Let me spell it out so even you “Might” be able to understand.
I said. Sounds to me like more of a harassment of someone who has a spiritual faith than anything else.
It’s obvious to the logical person I was talking about Dr Ron. I did say logical person. Didn’t I? So, you not understanding is understandable.
I know you didn’t say you were harassing me. Once again, please refer to the above sentences.
Gazettefan said. RUSerious, read oneheck......,s comment. He says those low-lifes are christians. They can be christians and not be christians when the mood suits; but when they go back to being christians, they can pray themselves out of trouble with the lord without the participation of their victims.

Is that what I said? You have quite the imagination. Can you break it down for me as to how you come to the conclusion you reached? I would love to see how your mind worked for you to come to that conclusion.

callit......., thanks for letting us know you care as much about them as your god does.

RUSerious, read oneheck......,s comment. He says those low-lifes are christians. They can be christians and not be christians when the mood suits; but when they go back to being christians, they can pray themselves out of trouble with the lord without the participation of their victims.

With a clean slate, they feel free to sin again (they are not carrying the weight of what they did). That's why prisons are over crowded with christian recidivists.

RUSerious, which prisoners should be counted, only the ones with the bloody Jesus tattoos? And don't you think it's about time that you become familiar with the fact that christians do bad things. If we only count the ones who only do good things, then, believers can't claim the high numbers they're always claiming -there wouldn't be a whole lot of them. I didn't say they represent you. But they do represent what's wrong with christianity.

Focus on how the sin-and-pray-get-forgiveness mechanism accommodates recidivism.

And comment on why the victims of the forgiven aren't naturally included in the pray-forgiveness process.

I respect you, but you're doing mankind no favor by abiding by an ideology that is so easily embraced and is so easily embraceable by low-lifes who stay low-lifes and numbskulls who stay numbskulls.

And whose comments dishearten you? When you scroll down and read them, can you honestly say that it isn't believers who are writing insulting comments. Keep in mind, that when a believer is criticized for not actually responding to what's been written (being evasive) and is constantly talking off the point, that's not the same as the low brow remarks believers are making.

High moral standard: But you are holding humans to a higher moral standard than your god. You can't deny that. Your effort at being evasive only caused you to unwittingly say even with all god's power he is not responsible for causing and allowing the deaths of thousands of babies each day. You put that burden on humans. Meaning, you are holding humans to a higher moral standard than you are holding your god -at the very time your god can stop all that horror. That's the trouble you talked yourself into.

Another evasion by you: You have god as the source of your morality but you claim that you don't know how he thinks?

oneheckofaguy said, "Since I am not avoiding the discussion it is obvious I don’t feel harassed. I have nothing to prove so how could you harass me?"

I didn't say I was harassing you. You're the one who suggested that when you said, "Sounds to me like more of a harassment of someone who has a spiritual faith than anything else." Now that you deny the harassment you had previously declared, the conclusion to be reached is that you are not "someone who has a spiritual faith." I understand.

Mongo. Whats your alien look like?
Poobah. Since I am not avoiding the discussion it is obvious I don’t feel harassed. I have nothing to prove so how could you harass me?
Christians are not sinless. They are not in prison because they are Christians either. So what is the point of that comment? Is it to affirm there are more Christians in the world then atheist? Because that is all it proves. I think the atheists need a study done on how many Christians are in prison due to them being Christians. Even then it is a moot point.

That's it? You pronounce that "It occurs to you" (and you're talking about ME!) "that god either doesn't exist or that he's crazy" and "seeds are being planted", therefore it is so? But we're not supposed to believe in an all-knowing God, just an all-knowing Gazettefan?
If anything, my faith is stronger since I discovered these playgrounds of religious "discussion". But I will admit that the animosity and disrespect are disheartening, and surprising to me.
About the prisoners: are you all-knowing on that, too, or only consider the possibilities that strengthen your argument? Prisoners are credible in their claim that they are Christian, but they are not credible if they truly believe God exists? Why is that? How about the last minute "converts"? How about those whose repeat acts contradict what they say they believe in? Whether or not any prisoners are Christian, they do NOT represent ME!
And no, we should not hold mankind to a higher standard (we are mere mortals), but we should be held accountable for the evils we purposely commit.

No seeds planted here. I choose to be a believer, and your rantings can't do anything about it. My first comment was I do not care what anyone else believes but I do believe. If that makes me selfish so be it. I don't have all the answers, but apparently you non-believers do.

gazettefan, I have given you pathways to learn, I see you have not learned anything. You must abhor going to weddings and funerals where God is mentioned.

RUSerious, I suspect that you failed to find anything on the net that contradicts what I said about the high percentage of christians in prison. Which is also the reason that prisons are filled with repeat offenders. Sin and pray for forgiveness then sin again. Their belief relieves them of previous offenses without the the input of their victims.

What pops into your mind when you are told that you hold humans to a higher moral standard than you hold your god causes you to write in an attempt to fool yourself and me. But you're only fooling yourself. It occurs to you that god either doesn't exist or that he's crazy.

And if you can't speak for god, that means you don't know what god thinks. If you don't know what god thinks, then, how can use him as a source of your morality?

As for this debate, discussion, or argument, it has great value. Once again believers are exposed as easily tapped-out when in a discussion about their belief. Seeds are being planted.

Don't worry the rest of you believers, back later.

oneheckofaguy, you're the one who feels harassed, to use your description. Usually if a person is feeling harassed they avoid the situation. Perhaps you're enjoying being the one to help expose the meme of religion.

I still don't understand why the athiests are having a problem with this story. The man has a spiritual faith. He doesn't even mention god. Since he is not admitting that god cures all ills, He never says god saved him. He said he has a spirituls faith that helps him get through life.
Why are the athiests pouncing on this story?
There are better stories out there that you can accuse god of being a murderer.
This just shows that you have to hold hostage every good story of faith of any kind.
You athiests are like a virus. Ants on a piece of candy.

So do you athiests believe in aliens from space?

poobah- You started to converse with me. My opinion does not agree with yours so you tell me to quit discussing it with you. God was first. Then came man. Since you cannot prove otherwise I will now ask that you cease from commenting any further. (That is the way it works Isn't it?)

oneheckofaguy said, "My thoughts are that there is a god. I don't have to explain it to you. I don't have to defend my belief."

heckofaguy, you have been very clear that you have no evidence that your imaginary god exists. There's no need to belabor the point. You've acknowledged that you base the existence of your imaginary god on your beliefs and I don't expect, or desire, you or anyone else to defend your beliefs. Now, if you have some evidence you would like to share, I'd be more than interested in that.

oneheckofaguy said, "Sounds to me like more of a harassment of someone who has a spiritual faith than anything else. You people are not against god. You are against everyone who's opinions are not the same as yours."

Your comfort level has apparently reached the point to where you're looking for ways of discouraging conversation that exposes the fallacies of the Christian meme machine. That's fine. You can simply quit engaging in conversation with me.

Mongo: "Lets talk about Clostridium Difficile now, shall we? Be wordy."
I can't do that, it would literally be taking the words (and it's definition) right out of your mouth. Not my thing, but obviously yours.
Yes, I had to look it up, but you, it is obvious, are living it. I've noticed you have an affinity for unappealing bodily discharges.
I can't imagine our "debate" mates here are thrilled with you taking their side. But I could be wrong.

So mongo believes in aliens. And the proof of that is where? Is this what the rest of you athiests believe?

Poobah. The story as I read it is about faith and a spiritual journey. Where did all the babies dying and god not taking care of them come into play? Sounds to me like more of a harassment of someone who has a spiritual faith than anything else. You people are not against god. You are against everyone who's opinions are not the same as yours.
Mongo. I'm glad you're on their side. You're kind of out there. A One flew over the cuckoo"s nest kinda person.
The story is about this mans faith. Nothing more. My thoughts are that there is a god. I don't have to explain it to you. I don't have to defend my belief. I don't have to answer un answerable questions. That is why it's called faith. If you see it it's no longer faith.
Is it?

Gazettefan: "RUSerious, the reason you think that I'm not responding appropriately to your comments is because you're not writing what you think you're writing.

Thanks for the heads up. I wonder what I'm writing. I thought I knew.

and you said "Unacceptable things are popping into your head and you're trying to hide those things, that's why your writing is wordy and unclear."
Those unacceptable things popping into my head weren't meant to be read by others. I apologize if you took offense. But a person can only read those venomous comments for so long... (I don't necessarily mean yours)
And my writing is always wordy-you knew that-no matter what the subject. And it's unclear to you because it isn't saying verbatim what you think I should say and/or believe.
But I can predict most of your responses to what I say, yet I still say them. (That fault I will claim for myself.)
Your other issues: yes, it (people who suffer because of what we do, or don't do, etc.) is the fault of mankind, whether or not you believe in God.
I cannot speak for God, and you cannot speak for me, as you did above. And it certainly isn't up to me to "let God off the hook". If it were up to me, I'd ask him to trade my life for those baby's (at least), and I bet you would, too. On the other hand, some people have managed to do just that.

And your prisoners stuff that I forgot to include before: most prisoners are Christian (or so they claim)? And? Could be, but whose statistics are you using, and was it from questionnaires they filled out? Are these indications of the shortcomings of Christianity, or of these prisoners? Would you give the prisoners a pass for their failings because they were brought up as Christians? Can you be sure they were? Maybe they grew up in a Godless environment and thought checking the "Christian" box would look good? I know I have heard of quick conversions just before a death sentence was to be carried out.
We (posters in general) cannot have a civilized discussion. Why is that? This isn't even a debate. It's an argument that none of us will win in this setting. It's futility in action. Just look below.

oneheckofaguy, sorry for the characterization of your three conclusions that 1) your imaginary god exists, 2) that your imaginary god existed before laws of physics and 3) that your imaginary god created everything were characterized as "conclusions of fact." Quite an interesting proposal; imaginary things, that is things based on faith (beliefs), that exist.

So there you have it, TCB. oneheckofaguy has admitted he is worshiping an imaginary god. A god he readily admits is based on his faith (belief) and unsupported by evidence.

How about you, TCB? Do you have evidence that god exists or do you also worship an imaginary god?

Is there spirits?

Faith

TCB said, "Your entire premise is that somewhat wrote a statement-ie God created everything as "conclusion of fact"...no one knows this."

Oh, but someone does! Ask oneheckofaguy if he has evidence that god exists. If he answers "yes," my statement is correct. If he answers "no," he is admitting he worships an imaginary god.

TCB said, "As for proof of evidence- lets assume that you believe there is life on other planets-where is the proof?"

Let's not assume. I have never stated there is life on other planets. I do not have evidence to support that. A belief there is life on other planets is just that, a belief unsupported by proof. Just as the belief that god exists is a belief -- wholly unsupported by evidence.

Poohbag

I am responding to your comment. You state that you are an agnostic. Fine. Your entire premise is that somewhat wrote a statement-ie God created everything as "conclusion of fact"...no one knows this. This is an opinion but there are those who believe this as fact.

As for proof of evidence- lets assume that you believe there is life on other planets-where is the proof? Maybe these planets have unicorns as well.....?

Ask them, Mongo.

TCB said, "As an agnostic you should know that one does not need proof to exist-only faith."

That makes absolutely no sense for more than one reason. The first reason is that oneheckofaguy was not simply professing his faith but drawing three extraordinary conclusions. One that god exists, another that god existed prior to the laws of physics and yet another that god created everything. Those are three conclusions of fact, not professions of faith.

Secondly, any reasonable person, and that is not limited to agnostics, should understand that conclusions of fact, not faith, requires proof of evidence.

A person having said that they have faith that god exists is not proof that god exists.

Poohbah,

As an agnostic you should know that one does not need proof to exist-only faith.

Just as those who believe life exists on other planets have ZERO proof-but their faith keeps them "believing" that life exists on other planets.

The absence of "not found" does not mean "found not to exist" (unless you be gfan or pro union and it pertains to God)....but life on other planets-completely reasonable AND probable....

oneheckofaguy said, "The same can be said for you. But since god is the creator of everything it's obvious physics comes after god."

No, it can't; I'm a pragmatic agnostic (see my January 25, 2013 at 12:35 p.m. comment). And again, you are reaching conclusions with absolutely no proof. In your previous comment you concluded that god existed and that he existed prior to the laws of physics. Now, you are concluding that god is the creator of everything, without any proof. That's three extraordinary conclusions without a proffer of proof.

oneheck......, why do you think god exists?

Especially given what I wrote in my 1:35pm comment to RUSerious.

The same can be said for you. But since god is the creator of everything it's obvious physics comes after god.

oneheckofaguy said, " I think god was here first. So the burden is on you."

You have not only concluded that god exists, but that he existed prior to the laws of physics based on what you "think." You then use your conclusions to burden others with proof which you yourself have not provided in reaching your conclusions.

actually the laws of physics is trying to disprove the existance of god. I think god was here first. So the burden is on you.

3gringos, when someone makes claims that run contrary to the laws of physics the burden of proof is on him.

When that person fails to meet that burden, then, his alleged "proof" becomes proof against his claim. And that's my proof of the non-existence of god.

Back to the drawing board for you.

username........, you'll probably see a lot of believers at that leatherfest.

oneheck......., for answers to your important questions, read the prior comments from non-believers.

Yeah, right, alwaysright, the devil. Ha. People who think they know the devil are considered to be in very bad shape.

Give a try to responding to the comment that I left for RUSerious.

And, hey, MB......, what happened to your part of the theological discussion?

MBHammer, is it really possible that you don't know that your next to last comment yesterday was a wish?

RUSerious, the reason you think that I'm not responding appropriately to your comments is because you're not writing what you think you're writing.

Unacceptable things are popping into your head and you're trying to hide those things, that's why your writing is wordy and unclear.

Two issues:

OK, now, according to you the babies are dying because it's mankind's fault. Still, the question becomes: Why does that let god off the hook. Would a human who set something in motion be allowed to refrain from helping babies when his original actions resulted in something very, very bad for those babies? No. No because we hold humans to standards that are higher than the standards to which you hold your god. Do you understand that this is your thought process?

And what of prayer. If someone prays for a loved-one with an illness and that person happens to get well, the one who prayed believes god answered the prayer, right?

So, when someone prays prior to when those babies die each day, why doesn't god answer those prayers. After all, he answered the prayer for one person who was only sick, but thousands of babies dying are much more important than that, right?

3gringos, as Scott Bidstrup has noted in the introduction to his review of Strobel's book, Strobel wrote his book while a fully committed Christian. Bidstrup's extensive and in-depth review is available at: [ http://www.bidstrup.com/apologetics.htm ]

"The book is very cleverly crafted. It is often claimed by the proponents of this book that the author wrote it when he was an atheist, and was undergoing the conversion process. This is not true. From a careful reading (see the last two paragraphs at the bottom of page 14), he makes it quite clear that he wrote it as a fully committed Christian, "retracing" his spiritual path an indeterminate period of time after the fact. As such, it is yet another ordinary piece of apologetic axe-grinding."

never mind found it Lee Strobel. Thanks though.

Can one of you atheists help me? What was the name of the atheist that decided to prove there was no god and in doing so he turned to Christianity cause everything he was finding proved there was a god. I am serious in this request...usernamegoeshere you seem to know alot do you know? Just curious.

It seems the mans faith is just that. Faith.
He didn't read the whole bible. The part he read inspired him to have faith. Spiritual faith.The athiests quest is against god. Now it's against faith too? Or are they against the spiritual too? Is there anything about the spiritual world they disagree with? If someone said they had faith in a spirit, would that set their teeth on edge? If so. Why?

Why would you even read this news article? It seems so beneath you? I thought it was a good positive article for the gazette to write. Go ahead and call us names, for we know where we are going. Did you know the devil is real too? He is posting on here!

gazettefan, "...MBHammer wishes unhappiness on someone..." No, never wished unhappiness on you, however you seen to have a heavy chip on your shoulder. So how far do you carry your disbelief, don't like our motto "In God We Trust" on money, etc.? Don't like funeral services that mention faith, God, etc.?

You said "It seems you're saying that he's willing to have those babies die as a way for you to show appreciation for the gift. Some gift!!!" Ummm, nope. Not quite sure how you got that, not even close. The results of all that man has done are on man alone. If you run a car into the ground and expect the problems to miraculously be non-existent even though you read the handbook, can you then blame the manufacturer for making a faulty car? (Yep-another analogy.) You can ask him for advice (well, I can), but that might be all you'll get until ALL USERS learn to treat it as it should be treated.
You went on to say "Aren't there less horrible ways than dying babies for us to show our appreciation?" You did not absorb what I said. I never implied suffering babies showed our appreciation. If we would have showed it from the beginning, babies wouldn't be suffering and dying. It is a result of NOT showing our appreciation, by NOT doing what is right. Suffering babies were not the intended outcome. Helping those babies is showing our appreciation. Again, did you expect perfection in an imperfect world, someone to come and clean up after us when we could have prevented it in the first place and intentionally didn't? No consequences for our actions? Many of us (you included) do what we can to fix things, but it would take ALL of us to make the impact we need.
Natural disasters? Wasn't it we (mankind in general) who showed our disregard for the Earth? But you expect that we should only get perfection in return? How are we owed this?
It wasn't that I got the gift and the babies didn't. It was a gift to mankind. Babies weren't meant to suffer, and should not. No one was. But, in general, we blew it. No matter what or if you believe, is that not obvious? Or doesn't it matter as long as no one gets hurt? Not going to happen. You squander your inheritance, you lose, and there may be little left for the next generation. And those babies we speak of.
How anyone else reacts to your questions is between you and them. I can't speak for them, or fault them for reacting in a particular way to the mockery here. We're only human.
What did God say to me? And how did he say it? Refer to the last 2 lines of my first paragraph. I'm certain you haven't tried to experience it though, so how could you know what I mean?

First off, I'm no John Steinbeck, that's certain, but I write the way I write, just as you do. And I DO avoid useless confrontation. It wastes time and energy best used elsewhere. If there was anything good that might come of it, that's different. I don't see it here. You're not trying to see it my way, are you, or even interested in my viewpoint (for other than purposes of mockery)? That's up to you, but since you're not, then you will get what I feel like giving.
Now-man causing more horror for babies is NOT part of any gift. It's because that gift was used for other than it's purpose, and the natural consequences. Don't like the idea of anyone suffering? Do you think I do? But did you expect all sweetness and light as a result of MAN's record of running things? We can only attempt to make amends. When we do, good stuff DOES happen.

For those with short attention spans:

MBHammer and alwaysright got outed as believing in a god that is only concerned about them. They think it's unfair that it's been pointed out that that same god should be caring about the thousands of babies that die each from dirty water and starvation.

alwaysright, make up your mind, are you always right or not.

Nothing you've said in your post shows that you've actually read mine. The point is no matter much I've done (and I've done plenty, and I know you've done nothing) and no matter how much other people have done, thousands of babies are dying each day from dirty water and starvation while you seek to have the almighty creator of the universe give you a new bicycle. Put some effort into getting the point.

The point is there can't possibly be a god, unless it's a god that only responds to the selfish wishes of people like you. No doubt you are miserable when you don't get that bicycle but chance will make it seem like god gave you that bag of marbles you prayed for later. By the way I've heard that stuff about knowing who I am before. It is the bull of cowards.

Meanwhile the babies die. And you and your ilk are pathetically distraught because you know you don't care. Learn how to read before you respond.

It's obvious you've never done anything for anyone but yourself, that's what got to you on this thread.

Interesting how some do have all the answers all the while they are telling the believers why we shouldn't. I, like others feel nothing but bitterness from gazettefan. We are saying we do not have all the answers. Thank you to gazettefan for enlightning us the past few days with your reason for suffering children. It is obivous to me, you put the blame on those that think differently than you, so it seems you are innocent in taking care of anyone but yourself. So you take care of yourself and let us take care of ourselves, and the children are then responsible for taking care of themselves, and you can sleep at night. I have no doubt in my mind who you are.

RUSerious, I forgot to tell you of another reaction when believers can't adequately deal with reasonable comments and questions.

Note how MBHammer wishes unhappiness on someone who asks reasonable questions about belief, of course in lieu of actually dealing with those questions. Ignorance about what they claim to believe in abounds with them. Ignorance is bliss, but not happiness. He is as blissful as billnewbie -scroll down and have a look at how happy he is.

Believers like to claim high numbers, so who do they think is causing all the trouble? Who's going to therapy? Who's filling the prisons? About 99% of the people in prison are christians. They pray for forgiveness and in their minds they get it. So with a clean slate they sin again. That's why prisons are filled with repeat offenders. Thank you, Jesus.

gazettefan, I'll bet your vehicle is plastered with bumper stickers. You exhibit a lot of bitterness in your life, sad.

Wow, RUSerious, whats the return policy on that gift?

But seriously, I think I said "uncertainty" not "insecurity," and you show plenty of uncertainty in your comparison. For example, you're highly uncertain as to what you would write if you didn't use a comparison. Like, the troublesome part of the gift: God causing more horror for babies (part of the gift, remember?) than people are capable of preventing or are willing to prevent. See what I mean? You're attempting to hide something because the literal truth of the matter leaves you uncertain as to how to think about it and how to write about it.

Also omitted is that god would know that the rest of humanity would not be preventing that horror. Why would he create those eventualities and why wouldn't he change his mind and use his power to stop the horror? Remember, now, I'm talking about the ones who die not the ones who are saved. It seems you're saying that he's willing to have those babies die as a way for you to show appreciation for the gift. Some gift!!!

Your "explanation" omits how the babies personally suffer. Why did you get the gift while the babies didn't. Why didn't the babies get the gift. Why didn't god give it them? Why did he think they aren't entitled to the gift? If god thought it was smart for human life to be imperfect, why didn't he stop short of having those babies suffer and die so horribly? Would the human condition be worse off if those babies didn't die. Is this getting through? Aren't there less horrible ways than dying babies for us to show our appreciation? I think there is. Like helping people at Echo.

And how does the gift figure into the matter of natural disasters, aka acts of god?

And, scoffing? no. If you've taken the faulty side of a clear-cut issue, it's only necessary for the other side to point out the faultiness for you to feel like you're being scoffed at. But scoffing isn't the point. Stay on-point. Note how fellow believer billnewbie came on this thread with nothing but hostility. The claim by believers of being picked-on is the typical response to reasonable questions about belief.

Again, when non-believers point out that god isn't doing what he should or is doing something he shouldn't, the purpose is not to show hostility toward god, it is to explain to you that god couldn't possibly exist. Or if he does, he's crazy. When you thought about answering the question you were up against those two possibilities. You could only deal with the dilemma by obfuscating it with a comparison that lacks the comprehension that the literal truth provides.

And don't forget, I asked what god said. He didn't give the comparison story, right?. He didn't say anything, right?

No, not at all. In my case, I was busy.
My "answer" will be short (less for you to pick apart) though my post probably won't be. And though you suggested that analogies indicate insecurity, to me they indicate simplicity. Since I first saw any of these discussions here (and was amazed by the venom) I vowed not to get into religious discussions with anyone whose sole intent was to scoff at what I say. Why would I? We're not helping each other this way.
Suppose you were given a gift; it's yours to keep and do with what you want, with the understanding that you would maintain it, and all of its components, and take care of it in a loving way because it is precious. The gift giver will be around to give guidance, but the gift itself is your responsibility, and if you shirk it, it is yours to contend with. You do a very poor job taking care of your gift, you make a mess of things. You cry to your benefactor, call him names for your mess, claim he doesn't care about the his gift and is enjoying its demise, suggest it wasn't he who gave you the gift after all, actually say the gift giver isn't even real, because he hasn't fixed it yet. That takes nerve, don't you think?
Someone here made this comment: "this is the world your all powerfull all knowing diety designed." I don't believe that. I believe humans have brought it to this. I'm not evil, Gfan, nor do I think you are. Let's just do what we do to try to set things right and alleviate suffering. We both do it because we want to ease suffering, but I also would like to see the gift restored to its former glory.

RUSerious, I got no response from you when I asked why you asked god "Why?". Is that the same response you got when you asked "god" why?

vnvet7071, what?

RUSerious, it was a joke because I think you and janesvillean are mad at me.

Now, what happened when you asked "Why?"?

Wait, GFan...I asked you a question, remember? And it was a real one. But you instead replied with a question so you could scoff at my answer (do you deny it?).
Where would you get the idea that I would crucify you for your work at ECHO? I would applaud you.

Who is ever up there, sorry for the negative comments made here. :)

alwaysright, you incorrectly attributed the following statement to Ben Stein. "Now we ask ourselves why our children have no consciene [sic], why they don't know right from wrong." Those are the words of Anne Graham Lotz, the daughter of Billy Graham. [ http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/c... ]

That said, the quote brings up the issue of how the Church has compromised the consciences, not only of children, by taking whatever position is most financially beneficial to it at the time. Please read the following article about how a Catholic hospital (the Catholic church argues life begins at conception) argued in court that life begins at birth.

"Life begins at conception, according to the Catholic Church, but in a wrongful death suit in Colorado, a Catholic health care company has argued just the opposite." - Catholic hospital argues fetus not a person
[ http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/26/us/colorad... ]

I submit that throughout history it is the Church that is more responsible for compromised consciences than any other institution.

billnewbie, your career as a persuader peaked when, by your own account, as a nine year old, you tried to destroy the Empire State Building in New York with thousands of people in it.

Parenthetically: (Your recounting of that attempt suggests a certain hardwired religiosity that harkens to when your fellow believers in the Abrahamic god were more "successful" at murdering thousands of people by destroying big buildings in New York on 9/11.)

RUSerious, what happened when you asked "Why?"?

MB......, the hole you've dug for yourself has you and your god admitting that there are other gods. Are you sure you want to go that route?

The claim of judaism, christianity, and islam has god aka allah yammering to Abraham. Same fictitious god. Try actually reading the bible and your fellow believer's koran. Quit surfing the net for christians who want to spew hatred toward muslims.

PT, non-believers are commenting on religion. Believers are spewing the hatred.

As for christianity: The South naturally turned to the Old and New Testaments (the bible) to justify slavery.

And do you think your fellow christians/non bikers like the loud pipes on your Harley?

Right Pastafarian.

Note the wallowing in ignorance by most of the believers on this thread.

alwaysright, no one's picking on believers. Go tell Ben Stein he can practice his religion.

Now respond to the previous posts.

TCB, believers used to say that communism was a religion, then at one point they stopped saying that. They stopped because they realized that they were right. Communism is a religion. All those communist countries required a base of followers who practiced years of religious compliance. They merely changed to believing in a religion of another kind.

Communism is an unrealistic, idealized claim of communal life headed by an all-powerful, unelected leader. Sound familiar? Read your bible.

alwaysright, you're getting yours from god, so heck with those babies, right?

Everyone has become quite aware that Janesville is a backwards hate filled community, with Christianity being probably number one on the list, Followed closely by Harley Riders, Minorities, Charities, Homeless, Etc, Etc, Etc…………………………
As a Christian Harley Rider with Black and Hispanic children.. I’m amazed there hasn’t been a Stack of tires burned on my front lawn on a regular occasion.. And the Gazette online propagates the Hate Mongering of the (so called) Good Citizens of this community by consistently allowing the comments section on any story relating to “Janesvilles Top list of People and Things They Hate” to continually remain open to allow the Lynch Mobs a Place to spew hatred..

One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding.

Maybe I should put it another way: In the words of Ben Stein, I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew (Ben Stein), and I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, the America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.... Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and aren't allowed to worship God as we understand him? I guess that's a sign I'm getting old. In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Marray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in schools and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school...The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK, Then Dr. Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (he son committed suicide). Figured he was an expert and we said OK (we won't spank them when naughty). Now we ask ourselves why our children have no consciene, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates and themselves. And then people turn around and blame God because he didn't stop them. When you turn your back on God why should he stop the hate, we reap what we sow. Funny how easy it is to trash God and not look at yourself for an answer. Ben Stein/CBS Sunday morning commentary.

gazettefan, Muslims do not have the true God. Commandment #3 “You shall have no other gods before me." Notice the word "Gods", plural which indicates other Gods, i.e. more than one. Muslims have the wrong God and a doctrine off of the map. See the link earlier, It should not be necessary for me to walk you through the correct conclusion, at least I don't think so. Many explanations are available by many. If you go to Oneplace you can listen to for example June Hunt's series "Islam: A View Behind the Veil". Great program, one of many.

Gfan,

In the name of what religion did Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, lenin, et al kill the 140 Million or so people since 1900?

Clearly these "godless" dictators had the faith of their conviction to execute their vision. What religious convictions guided their actions?

Gazettefan, nothing could be further from the truth. I know Christians aren't the only charitable people on earth. No-if you took offense, don't. I mean the ones who can only ask "Why?" and don't also ask "How can I help?" Please believe me, I've asked both at times, and it pays.
Not sure about the ECHO reference. Enlighten me.

To realize that an omnipotent god would, for any reason, allow 21,000 children under the age of five to die every day should be reason enough to make any person, of faith or not, understand that god has no interest in, or impact on, the fate of humans. So the question of whether he exists or not, should be of little, if any, moment to man and any amount of time, money and other resources spent worshiping him, or debating his existence, are wasted.

alwaysright, you're getting yours from god, so heck with those babies, right?

RUSerious, why is it always the assumption that people who ask how god can allow thousands of babies and children to die each day aren't charitable? Not everyone needs to live under the threat of an imaginary creature to do good. I have done and still do plenty. I don't need the threat.

I'd help with Echo but I don't you and janesvillean to crucify me.

None of what you said is responsive to the current question. The willingness of people to help others doesn't make the question go away. The real point of the question is that the plight of those babies and children proves there is no god as defined by your religion and the religion of others. How could there be? He'd have to be crazy.

Note the cruel, insensitive answers from alwaysright. Cycle of life, everything'll be fine when they get to heaven, whatever, etc. Wow.

Good article and best luck to Dr. Ragotzy.

Prounion: I DID NOT say it that way; DO NOT put words in my mouth. I could more easily assume that YOU are a figment of my imagination. But you are not. So I am just encouraging you to work along side me (or miles away if you prefer) in helping those co-inheritors of the earth instead of slamming me for the reasons I do it, even if we do it for different reasons (and I certainly would not criticize yours). Let's just do it. THAT is my objective. Maybe that's why I, and people like me, are here(?)
Your "Why do people suffer..?" question is an age-old ploy by those with lack of faith to try to make people of faith agonize over the answers; meantime people are still waiting for our help. Man caused these problems, it was not in the original "design"; each man (woman and child) should what do he can to alleviate them.
Thousands DO suffer or die each day (but not just because I, "or some would be christian sat home eating KFC"), but there are millions more of us who are faring well and can do some good. Maybe if we (you) stop running around in circles asking Christians "Why?" when you see something bad happening, we try to fix it. Ok?

billnewbie, your career as a persuader peaked when, by your own account, you tried to push over the Empire State Building in New York with thousands of people in it as a nine year old.

Parenthetically: (Your recounting of that experience suggests a certain hardwired religiosity that harkens to when your fellow believers in the Abrahamic god were more "successful" at murdering thousands of people by destroying big buildings in New York on 9/11.)

Ever since then, it's been Sloth.

MB......., you lack the knowledge to teach me about this. That's why you resort to confirmation bias searching the net. I don't take reading assignments from you.

God aka allah made revelations to Abraham. Jews, christians, and muslims trace back to Abraham and those revelations.

By the way, alwaysright, I've mentioned Dr. Ragotzy in a positive way much more than you have.

alwaysright, there's no hate going here except from billnewbie.

OK, you pray, but the subject of the dying children never comes up? No requests on your part? God doesn't allow you to ask questions in this life?

And the subject isn't about changing anyone's mind. It's about the children. What about them?

Given what you've said, it seems that your "belief" in god is only some sort of narcissistic mechanism that allows you to be in love with yourself. Think about it.

At least RUSerious somehow sees the plight of the children as a call to help them. Not you, though.

prounion, You didn't read Hank, just one of many links I provided in the earlier post.

So then God set this in motion so that you would have a way toglorify him by your actions, but if you don't act then another human, in fact thousands each day will suffer horribly and die in misery because you, or some would be christian sat home eating KFC?

30,000 chirldren under the age of 5 die due to lack of clean drinking water - this is the world your all powerfull all knowing diety designed.

Or really - come on - wake up - your god is a figment of the imagination.

I asked God that question years ago. I sat there in front of the TV seeing people suffer in very terrible circumstances. Many people are still doing just that, but haven't been open to the answer. The answer to me was "Get up and do something about it."
I am, but I see you're still asking "Why?". I can alleviate the suffering of some, and if everyone did the same, we could alleviate the suffering of even more, if not all. But too many people are still sitting around asking the question.."Why?"..instead of assuming we are the ones who are supposed to be doing something about it.
Those supposed representatives of God who cause some of that suffering? Who says they are representatives of God...any more than those US troops urinating on Taliban fighters were representative of the US and its military (will you accept them as your representatives?) or perverted members of the clergy doing unspeakable things to children being true representative of the clergy? Why do you not assume it's the other way around? Why do these sick individuals do the things they do? Why do "bad things happen to good people"? Just because I do not know the answer doesn't mean they are sent by the US military or by God to do awful things, or that their suffering is God's sport. Why does an all-powerful God allow it to happen in the first place? I'll know more one day, but I am only human and can not know everything. Do you? Really?
If you want to live in some fairy tale fantasy world where only good things happen, go back and sit in front of the TV and switch the channel.
If we have faith, how is it that you appoint yourselves to say we are wrong-but YOU know the truth? I KNOW what is being asked of me, and what I should do about it. Please accept this in the manner I am saying it (not patting myself on the head, but to get my point across)...because of what God has asked of me and my compatriots, fewer of those people are suffering, there are more clean wells, there is more food available, there is more medical help for those who need it..., What would happen if everyone believed the same as we do?

Bill - why would I care if you prayed for me?

I know that activity for what you know it is as well - you thinking about me. There is no one on the other end. We have discussed the biblical descriptions of how prayer is supposed to work - the bible is clearly untrue about the subject.

So think your thoughts, have your wishfull thinking, pretend time with me as the subject all you like.

Also please write a letter to Santa asking him to send me coal for X-mas this year, I won't be upset at that either.

Hammer - so they have a book written by men that were backwards and much more primative than today, and you have a different book that was written by Bronze Age man. How did you reach the conclusion that yours is correct?

If its faith - theirs seems to be stronger than yours.

gazettefan, learn! http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bible... And there are many more links I could provide so you can learn.

gazettefan: I will ask him when I see him, I'm sure you will ask him when you see him as well. The circle of life, being born and dying are the only certain things in life. I've answered your question each time you've asked it, but are you listening? Doesn't appear to be. I don't say I have all the answers and if you want to help just one person eat and drink feel free to find away as millions of others are doing. It is up to us.

Yes, MB....., they have they're own book but it's the same god. Read your bible. And borrow your neighbor's koran.

gazettefan, not the same god, you are way off course. Muslims have their own god and book (Koran).

MB......., the god of islam, judaism, and christianity is the same god: the Abrahamic god.

alwaysright, why don't you BELIEVE that it's ok to ask god why thousands of babies and children die each day from starvation and dirty water?

That's not a hateful question, it's reasonable one given your attestation that god is helpful toward humans.

What would happen if you asked god that question?

prounion, Suicide bombers have a different God, not the triune God, the one and only true God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob whose son is Jesus Christ.

I know I won't "win" in your debate here, I don't have those answers you seek. My first comment stands, I know there is a God and I have faith. I'm happy to be a believer and I know I won't change your minds. You both (prounions and gazettefan) love to "debate" or "hate" anothers view point on any topic whether it be faith or political based. I don't need to beat you at your negative comments. Dr. Ragotzy (did you forget what this article is about?) wrote a book on his faith. I've read comments that he is a good doctor and a nice person, and it is a "blessing" that he is in a better place in his life. He doesn't need your approval and neither do I to live my life to be happy. I'm just sayin I believe.

alwaysright, why don't you ask god NOW why thousands of babies and children die each day from starvation and dirty water?

Always - Faith is not a good thing - suicide bombers have a great deal of faith - they are not blessed - they are just dead.

Does your faith differ from theirs in any way? They are convinced that they are doing the morally right thing - are they wrong?

gazettefan: again I say that is a question you will have to ask when you see him. I don't have all the answers, but maybe dirty water is better then none. Bad things happen, but so do good things. How about the 3 yr. old on the news this morning that had a pencil in her eye and head, and it touched nothing. Don't take the miracles away from your life because bad things also happen. And the babies dying are being cared for in heaven.

alwaysright, what did god say when you asked him about the thousands of children and babies who die each day from starvation and dirty water?

gazettefan, ask him when you get there. I said I know and I believe. I can't answer all the questions you might have but because you have questions doesn't mean he isn't real. You have to have faith. I am blessed I know that, but you do not know me (I don't know you) I could have been hungry, I could have been abused, but I have faith and prayer works. You talk about others being mean to you but I am just saying I have faith, I believe and it does not matter what other say. Whether we come from apes, whether there is life in another planet I know God and I am spreading the word he is real. If you don't know him, open your heart and you will find he is there. Life isn't always a piece of cake, he never said it would be but he is real. I have faith. If you want to tear apart my words or others that believe go ahead. I am only guilty of believing and knowing God, as is the man in this news article. If you do not want to read it don't. I'll pray for you anyway.

alwaysright, that's all fine and dandy with you but what about the thousands of children and babies who die each day from starvation and dirty water?

How come you get a god that watches over you but they don't?

TCB, re: your comment to prounion: Relax, we don't need any more proof that crazy stuff comes out of your head.

And why does that stuff come easier than genuine responses to prounion's and my comments?

But, billnewbie, you chose unprovoked meanness instead. How is that an improvement over preaching the word or defending your faith? Has meanness helped you move any skyscrapers? Isn't your new tactic evidence that I moved a skyscraper by having you assume a stance that reflects negatively on your faith?

When I was 9 years old, I visited New York City. We went to the Empire State Building. Before we entered, I pushed on that building with all of my might, but it didn't budge. So I quit pushing it. I didn't quit pushing it because of sloth...

Similarly, I have had many discussions about what I believe with Gazettefan. I was trying to engage in a healthy debate with what I at first thought was a fair and open minded individual. But, just like the Empire State Building, what I at first thought was a misconception born of inexperience. Therefore, I no longer push skyscrapers and I no longer engage in serious discussions with Gazettefan. I didn't quit debating with Gazettefan because of sloth either...

(By the way, Gfan, that bait is rotten too)

Hey Gazettefan, BULLSEYE!!!!

Prounion,

If there are billions of planets like ours how many do you think have unicorns? What do you think is a reasonable % ?

And do you think on those planets what ever the dominant species is-which could be unicorns or dolphin like species or even something resembling a human being- that they are forced to join a union as a condition of belonging? That would be an enlightened planet.....

Here's a definition, billnewbie:

The deadly sin of Sloth: Spiritual laziness in the matter of spreading the Word.

You can't deny you're guilty of that. Look at the meanness of your comments. And they are totally devoid of scholarship of any kind. Yours is the kind of anxiety that comes from cognitive dissonance. You are revealing that your faith has been penetrated and severely weakened.

You can benefit by regarding Dr. Ragotzy as a good example when it comes to fighting Sloth.

"Atheism: the religion devoted to the worship of one’s own smug sense of superiority." -Stephen Colbert of The Daily Show.

I don't usually pay any attention to Mr. Colbert, but when I ran across that quote, I knew I had to share it, since so many of the atheists that post on the Gazette have unwittingly proven the truth of Mr.Colbert's statement time and time again. Of course, one of the Gazette's atheists, whom I'll leave unidentified since he probably won't be able to resist identifying himself (not that he has to), has proven it far better and more frequently than most.

How do you drive Gazettefan and Prounion bananas?

Take them to the Capitol's Rotunda and tell them there are Christians praying for them in the corner.

I believe, because I know my God has been in my life. He has answered my prayers. I don't have to go to church to know, although I believe you go to church to be with other people that believe. Some say there are many "Gods" so how do you know which is the way of life? Doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter to me if there is life on other planets with life on them. Doesn't matter what he or she looks like, they will be there to greet me when I go to heaven. I believe, because I know there is a God, and yes according to the doctor that is called faith.

https://www.google.com/search?q=complian...

TCB, are you aware that you're only being avoidant? How could you not at least have an inkling about compliance under duress. Here's a Google list. Next time do your own Googling. The point is: The law recognizes that a decision under duress does not constitute free and clear willingness and that such a decision is invalid. I imposed the thinking behind that law on the fact that belief in god has no clear basis when acquired under duress.

And don't forget to comment on the main part of my post. Or did clear reasoning finally shut you up and that's why you're being avoidant?

TCB - is your point about that law that it is right to attempt to scare children with threats of being burned alive forever if they do not accept the nonsense that is handed out in churches and found in scripture? Or are you attemping to make the point that it is legal?

Gfan,

WHich law? I want to read it. Federal, state, local, moral.....please provide a link to the law you cite.

TCB, it is you who are bailing. Your previous response shows that the difference between faith and speculation doesn't even register with you -meaning you haven't really read my comments which point-out the difference between the two.

You are stuck in a faulty syllogism that were it currently prominent in the human species we'd all be still living in the Bronze Age. Science and the scientific method has provided us with a quality of life that for all the bible's claim to prophecies was never even hinted at. From that same science we are allowed to make speculations about life on other planets. Your effort to equate faith and speculation reveal a deficiency in your ability to think clearly on the matter of religion and science. You are using an ersatz reasoning to validate something that isn't based on reason. Your attempt to equate the two things is a witting or unwitting effort to leach on the back of the legitimacy of science while defending something that is antithetical to science.

My comment about compliance while under duress was directed at vn..... The law says you can't extract compliance from someone while they are under duress. Get it?

As for the doctor joke, it's old enough to wear a beard. I refrain from participating in the telling of it out respect for Dr. Regotzy. Maybe you want put a pall over his accomplishment.

By the way, if you're worried about someone with bad manners, talk to your fellow believer billnewbie.

gfan,

What law? Please site the statute....

Also, I accept your surrender. Your tactic of writing "i don't know how to read" etc is tacit proof that you lack the intellectual horsepower to have a cogent, reasoned online debate. Thus you resort to "you dont know what my point is"....

Let me try to make it simple for you: believers-believe because of faith, not due to a lack of evidence. The athiest's principle position is there is "no proof" of God, or an afterlife, or heaven, or hell, etc. If you had proof either way that would be evidence, correct? Not found is not the same as found not to exist, is it?

Please try to cogently explain your premise that intelligent enough to be a doctor requires one to be an atheist....

Also, you never answered my question-what do they call the person who graduates last in his/her med school class?....

There are billions of planets like our out there, isn't it reasonable to speculate that life might exist on one of them?

Clearly this speculation would not lead one to say they know for certain it does exist. Certainly also it would not lead one to blow oneself up, shoot an abortion doctor, block stem cell research, stone someone to death or deny homosexuals equal rights.

This is the deifference between the horror that is the biblical god (and the resulting misery that idea sows into the world) and the reasonable speculation that life might exist on another planet.

Being terrorized into believing something is not a high recommendation for that belief.

As a matter fact, the law has prohibitions against compelling compliance while under duress.

TCB, your comments make absolutely no sense, your thinking is disorganized, you don't even know what your own point is, you don't know how to read, and you confuse the words faith and speculation -this sort of internal turmoil is typical when some engages to justify religious belief with reason.

And though I'm not a woman, I can tell that you are.

Gfan,

The bottom line is that the atheist has no better proof that there isn't God or life on other planets than the believer has that there is a god or life on other planets. Both groups are claiming knowledge that neither group actually possesses. For the atheist, no less than for the believer, it is entirely a matter of faith.

Atheists like to think of themselves as the party of reason, advancing views that are based only on facts and evidence. In reality, the atheist is in the same position of ignorance as those who believe in God. Yet the religious believer doesn't claim to be a champion of reason and is content to hold his position based on faith-intellecutal atheists will always remind us how smart they are....just look at Gfans posts-there is the evidence of how smart she is.

Gfan, what do they call the person who graduates last in his/her class in Medical school?

I believe, is belief the same as faith ? I have faith in my kids, because I believe in them. I don't have a designated religion, Or a church I belong to, but I believe there is a superior being that watches over me.I didn't always feel that way, I found that belief in a foxhole during the war. Maybe you have to be scared to death in order to find that belief. What ever the case, I found it. I hope you all can do so someday.

TCB, also note that your second post changes from your first post.

Your first post amounts to atheists "knowing" that there is life on other planets and your second post amounts to your conclusion that atheists don't know that life exists on other planets and therefore such life doesn't exist. You omit the elements that the vastness of the universe and the current limitations of exploration have yet to allow the discovery of life elsewhere, if it is there at all.

The problem with your religious belief being based in the bible is that the bible is supposed to be "proof." Your problem as a believer is that the biblical basis of your belief has never panned-out as true. When you present "proof" that really isn't proof, that "proof" becomes proof against your claim.

So, your attempt to criticize speculation about life on other planets only resulted in the demolition of the biblical basis of your religious belief.

TCB, your syllogism lacks the element of speculation, and is therefore invalid.

However, if you are a believer, the chances are your belief is based in the "evidence" that the bible provides (even if you haven't read the bible your exposure to its claims come to you indirectly and still accounts for your belief).

If you are going to argue in favor of "faith" for believing in your god, you'll need to explain how you could have acquired that belief without exposure, directly or indirectly, to the so-called "evidence" of the bible. Remember, you don't get to speculate on this and you don't get to remove the bible as the basis for your belief.

Gfan,

So as it stands for life on other planets since science has not found ANY evidence of life I would think that you - in order to remain consistent in your beliefs (or hypothesis = science) would determine since life has not been found -it is found to not exist.

True, gravitylens, and the special ingredient that results in atheism when reading the bible is intelligence.

BostonBill, as you can see, billnewbie doesn't even try anymore. And he of all people should know that Sloth is one of the seven deadly sins.

poobah, billnewbie's going through some agonizing reappraisals. Either that, or he's going "Mel Gibson" on us.

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen F. Roberts

gazettefan vs billnewbie are my favorite readings.

Issac Asimov made gazettefan's point much more poignently.

“Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”

There's a lot of truth in that statement, which is why it causes so much fear and anger.

billnewbie, your ad hominem attack on me is non sequitur to what I said. You've been making such remarks ever since you realized that your belief and your bible leave you with nothing substantial to defend. You're tapped-out.

If I'm wrong, then, tell me how you know what god thinks. You do know what god thinks, don't you?

And also comment on the fact that the good doctor didn't finish reading the bible.

TCB, people of all kinds speculate that there is life on other planets. They base that speculation on the kind of matter that composes the universe, the possibility of compatible conditions, and the law of averages. None of which is a basis for belief in a creature who is used to justify every crazy thought and action that humans are capable of.

Now, tell me how you know what god thinks.

Then tell me why my reasonable comment about how a proper reading of the bible can cultivate atheism draws such an uncivilized response from billnewbie.

Gazettefan is showing us how impressed he is with himself again. "But if he read the rest of the bible, coupled with the fact that he's intelligent enough to be a doctor, he would have become an atheist." My, My. Aren't you proud of yourself Gfan! It must bug you no end that few are as impressed with you as you are.

Gazfan,

How do atheists convince themselves that they know things when they actually don't? Such as life on other planets...

Dr. Ragotzy is a very good and caring doctor. He is a great example of how faith and examining thoroughly, the lessons of the Bible can heal. I applaud his courage in writing his book and publishing his struggle. Most would not. Yes, he is courageous and I hope that his journey will help others. I will definitely purchase his book.

gazettefan - Not all intelligent people become atheists. Most intelligent people are not atheist.
Why do people believe in God?
Maybe Dr. Andy Thompson has part of the answer.
http://youtu.be/9T2umUoY00A

Yes, he is a good doctor. But if he read the rest of the bible, coupled with the fact that he's intelligent enough to be a doctor, he would have become an atheist.

Good article. Dr. Ragotzy is a very good doctor and a nice person. It is nice to see that he is in a better place in his life now. I will definitely buy the book.