Fordfan,

No. The USA has 120 Trillion in debt obligations TODAY and has a collective net worth of 60 trillion. Net of -60 trillion. The collective total wealth today is 60 trillion-so if the govt confiscated everything, sold every asset to the UK, Japan, China, et al- it would still be 60 Trillion short. Broke. Broke Broke.

GDP is not the collective wealth of the USA. GDP is the gross domestic product-its the sum of goods and services products in a given year. Currently its about 15.6 trillion for 2012. Our federal debt is 16.5 trillion. The budget deficit is which under Obama has been more than 1 trillion per year since he took office is best represented as a % of GDP. Under Bush is was about 3%. Same for Clinton. Under Obama it has ballooned to 10% and currently stands around 9.5%. This is not sustainable. Then again, you think taxes or revenues can simply be raised without impacting economic activity. Which is false.

The deficit and debt are scary but not as scary as the implicit debt that congress has promised in benefits. The unfunded promises-these promises cannot be kept are in excess of 120 Trillion-TODAY. Tomorrow it is more. Dont worry, continue to pay 7.65% to social security - it will be there when you and I retire! Afterall today there 3.1 people paying for the CURRENT retirees-in 10 years it will be 2 people paying for every retiree. When Social security began-there were 30 working for every retiree.

BTW if you buy a home for 100K are you paying cash or are you taking out a mortgage. A Mortgage is debt obligation-the bank owns the home until you pay off your note. The difference is that debt is manageable-ask Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Portugal. If they lose their capital base-poof-global depression.....(and we are headed this direction). So in your analogy, unless you own your home-and your net assets do not add up to more than your obligations-you are broke.

TCB - if you make $50K per year and buy a house the costs you $100K, are you then broke?

Are you saying that GDP = Total national wealth?

DTB,

a monopolistic market or a competitive labor market? In dollars, the market clearing wage is the number where the quantity of teachers supplied is equal to the number demanded at a single wage.

What is not discussed is the opportunity cost for teachers. For example id a district promises to pay computer science or math teachers the same rate as physical education teachers-that district may not be able to attract the best computer science/math teachers but there will be an abundance of PE applicants.

There is a demand side and a supply side of the labor market equation. Wages are determined largely by a school districts fiscal capacity-which is a political issue not an economic issue.

Fordfan,

WHo is not being "factual?"

US GDP 15,9 trillion. US Debt 16.5 Trillion-which is debt held by the public and what is classified as intragovernmental debt in other words-the federal debt.

Implicit debt- is the real doozy. Implicit debt Implicit debt represents the unfunded obligations of programs such as Social Security and Medicare — all the benefits promised under those programs in excess of anticipated revenue Unfunded social security obligation are at least 16 Trillion and the medicare shortfall-90 Trillion. With a T. The good news is that implicit debt does legally need to be paid back in full. Which means that future benefits will have to be cut.

Total debt-125 trillion +. Or 900% of GDP. If Govt was required to report its debt-like publically traded companies are-you would see that the country is broke.

This number is too large to "tax" our way into prosperity. Wealth could be confiscated in whole-and it would cover around 50% of the total obligation-total US wealth is about 60 Trillion.

You all are not being factual when you say that we cannot afford to honor contracts or pay for services rendered. As a state and as a nation we are not collectively broke or bankrupt. If you say that you do not want to honor contracts because you do not want to pay more taxes, that would be honest. It would also define today's Republicans - deadbeats.

My Dad was a retired teacher after 30+ years in Public Education, coaching and other extracuricular educational opportunities for students. He discussed at great lengths with his financial advisors about when he "should" retire. Turns out, by staying in the JSD for two more years, he lost several thousand dollars...He didn't want to retire yet, because he thought (as did his peers and "most" of his students) that he was a very qualified instructor. Not only of his assigned "subject", but also of life lessons and real world subjects that happen to kids after they graduate...(RIP, Dad, I'm sure this is not the world you wanted to leave behind...)

So Ezoner, what specifically is the "market value" of a teacher in dollars?

I had a friend that took the union presidents advice, him and all his co-workers were out of work a few months later, not always the best option. Think for yourself it will benefit you much more in the future.

Fordfan seems to believe that we can tax ourselves into prosperity.

Peter Severson expects more retirement lists ? He signed the recall petition, but why does he expect more lists ? http://ttvverify.com/petitions/sw005901....

"If we choose not to raise the revenues to honor contracts that we have in place, we are a deadbeat government."
--------
What contracts are not being honored?

Wow, I missed reading a few days and now almost 200 posts later I have to say it is the union presidents "job" to advise what benefits the teachers best. If retiring gives them the bigger benefit they should retire. Do they all "want to"? Probably not all. But as it will maybe benefit them to do so, so will it benefit the school district by hiring someone new. The new teacher will have to contribute more to their healthcare/benefits, and they won't make as much wage as the teacher that has been teaching 20 years. I see it as a win/win for the teacher and the school district. Just because they have to hire a new teacher, does not mean the district will get a bad teacher. I do not work under a union and I contribute more than a teacher does. If I would be better off retiring today than tomorrow I would retire. That is all this article is saying (to me). And maybe the board is being secretive, because they do not have final decisions made. Why would they say anything before they know what they have to do?

fordfan,

I understand your position. Govt, whether it is city, state, or federal can simply "raise" revenue by issuing new regulations or creating new taxes without any impact on economic activity. I get it. That policy works well everytime its implemented!

Most retail stores-like furniture stores, clothing stores, etc -walmart for example-they simply RAISE prices on their goods without impunity-when it wishes to raisde revenue! Look how well JC Penny has done. Look how well General Motors has done with the Chevy Volt! It should simply raise the price from 45K to 90K to raise more revenue. I wonder if the "desire" to purchase this fine automobile will remain the same?

"You do recognize that there are cities in the united states that have filed for bankruptcy protection because they cannot pay the contracted, agreed to wages and benefits previously negotiated in good faith-it is easy to spend other peoples money." This is based on the amount of revenue that the ELECTED representitives chose to raise. Be honest with your comments. If we choose not to raise the revenues to honor contracts that we have in place, we are a deadbeat government. We are not broke. We have more assets than we owe, but we seem to desire not to use those assets to pay our bills. It is that simple. That is why Walker and the Republicans are so arrogant right now - they see no problem with being deadbeats and don't understand why honest people are so bothered by them being deadbeats.

TCB - it has everything to do with it and you know it.

LynnRock,

Public sector employees-just like private sector employees are paid a market clearing wage.

However, there is a capacity to what society can afford. The state of wisconsin and the city of Janesville, unlike the federal govt cannot print more money and go deeper into debt-the amount of tax money that can be raised is finite and even public sector employees are not immune to economic reality. You do recognize that there are cities in the united states that have filed for bankruptcy protection because they cannot pay the contracted, agreed to wages and benefits previously negotiated in good faith-it is easy to spend other peoples money.

If this were not true-govt could simply tax us to prosperity. They cannot, which is why cities like Vallejo CA, Stockton CA, San Bernadino CA, Harrisburg PA have all filed for bankruptcy protection.

LynnRock, with this statement, " so looking at the comments made by you or others we should only pay public employees.. teacher.. fireman.. policeman..etc. what the tax payers can afford or want to pay, and in times when taxpayers are losing their jobs, and losing money and paying more for benefits, we need to pay public employees even less and make them pay even more for benefits. "

Shows you have a loose grip on economics and basic business.

This comment:

"Cause it’s the public employees fault that the elected officials we put in office dont know budgeting 101, spend beyond their means, don’t save for a rainy day and keep asking for everyone else to pay more in order to support this spending? "

Illustrates you have a loose grip on reality and history considering the public unions have had a MAJOR part of putting the politicians and their principles of overspending into office.

TCB – so looking at the comments made by you or others we should only pay public employees..teacher..fireman..policeman..etc. what the tax payers can afford or want to pay, and in times when taxpayers are losing their jobs, and losing money and paying more for benefits, we need to pay public employees even less and make them pay even more for benefits. Cause it’s the public employees fault that the elected officials we put in office dont know budgeting 101, spend beyond their means, don’t save for a rainy day and keep asking for everyone else to pay more in order to support this spending? Only in America..

What appears apprent to me is that teacher pay and compensation has exceeded market value and as such the market is now demanding a correction. In fact -- most industries have had to become more efficient and effective delivering their products and services. Teaching is no different. But -- unions -- in general are concerned with supporting a structure and base -- numbers. They are not concerned with the product and services provided and therefore -- the potential and likelyhood that value will be erroded. That is what has happeneded. Teaching as a profession is valuable -- but the value that teaches see vs the market perception as teacher compensation (pay and benefits) has adjusted is no longer in line with the revenue and market value.

lynnrock,

You wrote "Either way, no one has the right to question the occupation choice and the benefits that come with that occupation"

Sure you do. If you employee me-or pay my salary/benefits-you certainly are entitled to question the ability of your employee, what that person earns, as well as your ability to continue to employee this person/people. Economic conditions warrant a review of these things. There are also market remedies in the event you cannot afford to pay-bankruptcy is one of those remedies.

Desire to pay or affordability - its not the fault of the teachers.. yet those are better answers then those that attack the teachers directly for the benefits they have. And they are paying more. At which point is it enough? At some point their benefits will be like the average joes - so I am then understanding all of you will vote to give them more money so they make as much as other people in 4 year occupations?

fordfan,

Desire has nothing to do with it.

Actually I persoanlly think this should read "At the point where the benefits got larger than the taxpayers desire to pay."

LynnRock asks, "at what point did it become unfair?"
At the point where the benefits got larger than the taxpayers ability to pay.
In other words, when we could no longer afford it.

hiho...what, in your definition, is the difference between "whining and crying" and advocating for oneself? Do we not want to teach our children to think for themselves in a variety of situations, and to do what is right, for the right reason? OR...do you just want to teach children to follow and do whatever someone tells them to do...without question? I vehemently disagree with you that our teachers are not positive role models OR that the teachers want kids to be whiny OR selfish! You just want to be a big bully and watch the underdog get rolled over...and by the way, parents run to the attorneys to cry "UNFAIR" when a kid gets in trouble for being a kid...and the teacher can't even step in to correct bad behavior. crazy. absolutely crazy.

At some point in life, people decide what they want to be when they grow up. It is assumed that people look at the following criteria when they make that decision:

Will I have to go to school?
How long will I have to go to school for?
Are there any jobs out there in that line of work?
What is the expected income for that job?
What are the benefits? Pension? Health Care?
Is this typically a union based occupation?
Do I want to work for the public or a private organization?

Then people do one of two things - they know what they want to do and go for it, or they spend their lives going from one job to another never really knowing what they want to do.
Either way, no one has the right to question the occupation choice and the benefits that come with that occupation. I dont know about you, but saying that its "unfair" that some people may have benefits you dont or that they should lose the benefits they signed up for and worked hard for because you choose another employment path, is not only wrong its sour grapes. I dont remember seeing any posts by some of you 10 years ago about your tax dollars ( and theirs too by the way) going to support their benefits..at what point did you get bitter? At what point did it become unfair? Just for the record, I do not believe unions are a good thing - but I am smart enough to understand that just because I am not in a union and I dont care for unions , it does not give me the right to question other peoples occupational choices.
I can say that I make twice as much as most teachers, and yet the product I produce pails in comparision the to product teachers produce. How is that fair..

Teachers need to do what they feel is right for themselevs. If thats retiring -- so be it. I would not speak ill of someone that chooses to retire. That is an individual choice. Mr. Parr should not advise anyone on what to do. He should simply state the facts, if he has them, and then let the teachers decide for themselces. Anything else would be irresponsible.

In the end -- some teachers may find that retiring actually is a better choice and some may not. In the end, the school system also needs to do what is best for the school and the students. Some may disagree on that as a path, but that is why they were elected or chosen for their positions. If anyone feels they can do a better job -- run for the board. Otherwise - contribute and if you do not like the result.... politely go home.

Glad you let us all in to your club Rick!

Sorry - saw I got Bowlgal's name wrong just after I clicked to post it. I appologize for that.

Remove unions from the classroom. Replace with strong parental influence.

Purrmaid

If you have not yet noticed the US spends more money per pupil than most any other country in the world so money truly is not he problem. Sorry try again.

It is not any wonder our kids are self centered, non collaborative, individualistic, ego maniacal, non team players, and non problem solvers......they learn from the best...many teachers in the field....

Fordfan- I think HandBook is TCB.After the smackdown TCB got from everyone he created someone who thinks like he does. He, himself. Wouldn't be the first time someone has done that. Remember feduptaxpayer/kaysbrew etc. All phonies.

Well said, FordFan.

Teaching is the profession by which all others are made possible. They are the "make or break" when it comes to the success of this country's most valuable asset, our children. Shouldn't we be maximizing the enticements to attract and retain quality educators? Perhaps the goal is to produce an increasingly ignorant populace who tunes into Fox News for their daily allowable opinion. Do we want Limbaugh Lemmings racing this country to the cliff's edge?

so how many IDs do you have, Harry?

Good one Harry - you got me :)

Fordfan's teachers must be proud. Fordfan cannot distinguish between the words retired and removed. Got you!

Harry's very first post is deleted - class act! You will add a lot to the discussion.

Think of the positives not just the negatives that will come out of this. Of course, unions see only negatives.

At least there's honesty on the part of the union boss. It's not all about the children. It's a profession and the first priority is the teacher. Fair enough.

billnewbie, well said..."I must say that I was somewhat amused about what Mr. Parr said in the article. To wit: "They didn't say they'll work with us. There's a clear difference between work and listen,". That's the same Mr. Parr who, for the last couple of years, said that he and his union would listen to the school board's budget concerns, but they never agreed to work with them and they did not, either.

Now the worm has turned and the weeping and gnashing of teeth has begun over the political power shift. The union can no longer control both sides of a bargaining table that doesn't exist.

It's easy to understand why Mr. Parr and his union are perplexed. But does he really think that telling folks to quit because of it is the right thing to do? Will he take his own advice?"

Rick - You are intimating that you point is.... in or on your head?

MooShoo - made me laugh right out loud :)

Rick - You might find a mirror very helpful.

egalindo – you have identified what makes me so angry (and I suspect teachers so angry) about the whole charade that the right is playing. They love teachers as long as they are willing to work for whatever they are offered. They support education as long as they do not have to support education. And finally, and most importantly, they are totally willing to undermine teachers’ credibility, dedication and integrity in general while they say “It is not the teachers – it is the unions” and have nothing to back up their claims. These accusers are truly the scum of society but living there with their non-thinking agreeable cohorts, they don’t even recognize it. Pigs lying in their own waste and mud do not seem to mind other pigs that look and smell the same.

The rhetoric of "Teacher's aren't there for the kids" whenever the discussion comes to compensation is old. "Good" teachers, just like doctors, interpreters and anyone working in "helping" professions are in it because they want to get PAID to help people. Stop trying to sell your lack of commitment to students and the educators that dedicate their lives to kids in this community as some kind of moral standard. Volunteering for the district or to help kids in this community (at any schools, house of mercy or YWCA) is not only something we should expect teachers to do. Are you "there for the kids?"

Midnight_Ride, how does one get to be Teacher of the Year, if they were never "there for the kids"? It looks like 5 of the retiring teachers received that distinction. Many of the others on the list put in a long career and don't they have the choice to retire and not be ridiculed for it? I retired after 33 years at my job and I was READY to be done! That doesn't mean I didn't do a good job during the time I was there.

Midnight -
The ones who "retire now" were never there for the kids in the first place. The one who stay will be great for them. Weed out the union, weed out the bad teachers.

Please tell me what evidence you have for this statement. If you can't come up with some real evidence I will have assume it is a LIE.

The ones who "retire now" were never there for the kids in the first place. The one who stay will be great for them. Weed out the union, weed out the bad teachers.

Fordfan- TCB is a losing battle. He doesn't even understand the question.

I am also still awaiting your response on how you feel about corporate unions (they call them professional organizations) such as ALEC and their political activities. Requested this many times as has Mouse I believe.

"Does Goldman Sachs require mandatory union membership? How do they pay their employees so well? Granted managing directors and partner MDs get to take part in a special bonus pool-this year around 19 billion-but even the secretaries earn 6 figure bonus on top of an 80K salary."

TCB - I know an investment banker who lives/works in London and I know approximate pay scales. I trained and then mentored the guy in a previous job for a couple of years and I know the caliber of person he is - extremely sharp. He also has his head screwed on straight as he hasn't forgotten that he grew up in a lower middle class family in the Boston area - we talked at length about values.

I have also read your posts and if you will take some advice from me, I wouldn't quit your night job and head for Goldman.

"If I wanted to work in a union I would become a member. If I want to work in a corporation that requires that laborers donate a percentage of the wage to the union as a condition of employment I would not work there either. Its called free association." Now you are getting the point so why do you advocate taking union rights from others just because you want to freeload on what others have gotten you?

I'd like to see all of the teachers who are able to retire "threaten" to stay on- yes, I said threaten. The older teachers are the highest paid and by staying on to teach, they'd be costing the District much more than a novice teacher would. Also, they could use up all of their sick days every year. I wish they'd stick it to the school district and the community after the way they've been treated.

Fordfan,

If I wanted to work in a union I would become a member. If I want to work in a corporation that requires that laborers donate a percentage of the wage to the union as a condition of employment I would not work there either. Its called free association.

Look how good these rules worked in Janesville! Parker Pen and General Motors are booming!

Fordfan,

Does Goldman Sachs require mandatory union membership?

How do they pay their employees so well? Granted managing directors and partner MDs get to take part in a special bonus pool-this year around 19 billion-but even the secretaries earn 6 figure bonus on top of an 80K salary-should they form a union because a trader on the derivatives desks earns a bonus of 17 million?

(Hint: The cleaning crews are not Goldman employees-they are contracted out to a firm)

Thanks to the 17 teachers listed in this article for all of the service you provided to this community! Thank you in advance to all the other Janesville teachers out there who will decide to retire this year because of circumstances beyond their control. You have done nothing to deserve so many rude and ridiculous comments in these posts. When did it become such a bad thing to be a teacher? I loved my teachers and think of them often. Where would I be without them?

What other profession is expected to "donate" as much as the teachers? When I go to the doctor, he doesn't treat me without sending me a bill. Didn't that doctor go into medicine because he wanted to help the sick? When I go to get my car serviced, I must pay. Didn't the auto mechanic choose that field for his love of cars. How dare that auto mechanic charge me!!!! He should do it because he LOVES his work. (Sarcasm)

Teachers, after all, have families just like you and I that they need to support. They provide a service to this community. Let's applaud them rather than shoot them down.

Shame on each and every one of you who left a nasty comment! You wouldn't be able to write that comment if a teacher had not taught you how to read and write!

fordfan,

Sorry-I dont live in Ghana. I live in the United States of America.

bet this kid isn't a union member...

TCB - sorry about the blast furnace example. I guess your kids could go and do something like this instead:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/0...

TCB - not a condition of employment. If you do not want to work in a union, please be employed elsewhere. You seem to want to freeload off from other people’s hard fought labor battles (and maybe a few strikes with no pay) so that you can work at a desirable place with good salary and benefits. Or are you just saying that you want to destroy a work environment just because you have a tea bag sponsored thought process?

fordfan,

Free to associate-100% agree-if you want to join-go for it. Just dont force it down my throat.

Free to not be forced to associate? You disagree. You prefer as a condition of employment MANDATORY joining of the union. How tolerant of you!

Where in the united states are 12 year olds working blast furnaces? Maybe in your world-but not in mine.

My gosh-if the best reason for unions is to protect 12 year old children from being forced to work in blast furnace -in 2013-then no one can have a reasonable discussion with you. Your husband must be a saint!

Perhaps minorities should consider forming unions or the threat of slavery returning is real?....afterall joe biden said he "gunna put y'all back in chains".....

I remember Dave Parr saying NO to the taxpayers not that long ago when asked to consider having teachers pay a little towards their retirement and health care. Now he wants to make sure we are on the hook for as many teachers full retirement as possible.

Mouse, what I fail to understand is why these people want to intrude on other peoples' rights to form a union. That is a right that is recognized in most of the world and yet these people can't stand it that others join a union. So they don't like unions...work elsewhere for less money and fewer agreed to rights. They will still get the benefits that unions have instilled into our laws and culture. I they want to work for less than minimum wage - tell the boss. If they want their 12 year old kids to run a blast furnace with no protection and no insurance for $2.25/hr., I guess they can go to some other country and deal with the assured consequences. Just tell the kids that you wanted to instill a sense of independence, responsibility and hard work but you didn't mean to really have their face and arms burned to a crisp. If they want to be sexually harassed at work, they can get that too I am sure. They are just NOT using any for of logic at all.

What does retiring now have anything to do with preserving retirement benefits? Is it not true that even in retirement with a "contracted agreement" of retirement benefits, they can still be taking away with a number of legal maneuvers? Didn't that happen to GM white collar workers?

Eagle1, I wasn't referring to you in particular. What I was doing was making a general statement that if one simply chose not to participate versus having paid in and declined to accept payment. The latter would be reducing spending, the former would not. In the past another poster would suggest the same for Buffet (as you did) and then propose the reduction of spending, but I never saw him claim that he was refusing his military pension. He also would comment on the hypocrisy of those such as Buffet, but apparently didn't see his own hypocrisy. So, all I'm pointing out is that it happens on both sides of the issue - taxes and spending. No offense or insinuation intended.

Eagle1 - you seemed to have missed a question of clarification: "So do you think it is OK for big business to form their form of unions such as ALEC, the Chamber of Commerce, etc.?" Also, who do you think funds Americans for Prosperity and Karl Rove's CrossRoads GPS and others? Is OK with you if the wealthy VERY few use the profits they have created by depressing wages so they can make more money? Everyone for themselves? Let's see if Eagle1 has as much political clout as David Koch. Your thought process is corrupted I fear. You are just turning the whole political system over to the top 1% to interpret the constitution in a manner that benefits only them. Respectfully, you need to get real....or if you are real, please name the political organization that you have formed and the results.

Mouse you saying I am crazy is a badge of honor I will gladly wear it means I am most likely dead on with my viewpoints not to mention I don't lick windows as you do.

"One of the ways to do this is to tear down labor so they are no longer a political force."

you cannot be serious here, the labor movement has just turned into a fundraising arm for one party and from the many members I know that are part of unions it is not the party they closely align themselves with ideologically. Perhaps if they weren't just prostitutes for one party and actually made an effort to be objective they may have more credibility. I know they will never see things my way because I am for the individual, I don't group people, that is the basis of their entire structure, they are mini socialist entities, like it or not it is true.

nomoreres I have paid into it for 23 years so that is incorrect. fordfan the only thing both parties cooperate in is expanding government and that helps nobody in the long run.

jasondowd : I agree with you 100%. I meant that any of them who decide to stay after all of this are truly, incredibly dedicated.

Eagle1 - I have limited faith in either party of government if they have unchecked power. I do know, however they can get things done if they cooperate. Unchecked they run amuck and right now the conservative movement is trying tear our country and government apart basically through stubbornness and - I will say it - short-sighted stupidity. One of the ways to do this is to tear down labor so they are no longer a political force. I believe in checks and balance in most everything. Those who do not will cease to exist eventually. If you truly trust the good of others, why are there even laws? Does anyone at all even remember what happened in 2007/2008? Unchecked greed and over we went….lied to all the way until the lie could no longer be contained because those in the know were bailing out of the economy and leaving the rest of holding the bag. Reports are the even Paul Ryan, know what was coming down, bailed out on his constituents when he should have been working to save them – big money from us to him at that time.

I also had to deal with unions when I was in management. If we couldn’t see our way forward to grant a request in bargaining, we kept bargaining but kept our position. This is not rocket science…it is being honest and forthright with employees. Seeing the inner workings of big business over the years, I know there has to be checks and balances there also. Believing everyone has good intentions is a dead end. So do you think it is OK for big business to form their form of unions such as ALEC, the Chamber of Commerce, etc.?

Eagle1, Declining your social security (since you have paid into it) would be commensurate with your suggestion to Buffet, but opting out entirely would not (meaning you wouldn't have paid into it).

Mouse,
I have enjoyed wiping the floor with you today. The only response is mom gave me too much sugar? Well done!

I accept your surrender.

When your willing to engage in adult debate-let me know. Until then look out for the black helicopters and that evil Mitt Romney and his investors looking to take the money that the country gave you!

Good luck building your next straw man.

funny you bring that up nomoreres, I was actually thinking about that yesterday about declining my social security and better yet opting out of it entirely, I am all for that, When you get down to it people under 50 will pay into the pyramid scheme (read governments definition of pyramid scheme) for decades and get nothing back out of it, if that isn't considered a major sacrifice I don't know what is, talk about paying your fair share.

Mouse,

There is no difference. You are blind to your own partisanship. Romney is not breaking any law-so your ire (really your jealously) should be directed at legislators who can force US citizens via arcane law-to invest in US enterprises only. (which they could not enforce)

Im sure you hate Google almost as much as Romney or George Soros?

sure you do. Or Apple. Or any other investor (individual or corporate) who legally moves monies to avoid confiscatory taxes on income. Then again, I bet you are type of person that believes that tax rates have no impact on economic activity. Probably never heard of Art Laffer have you?

I bet you are really angry that Paul Ryans brother works with Mitt Romneys son at a private equity firm-a firm solely designed to enrich themselves and their investors!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-10...

Eagle1 @1:39, Everything you stated in this post is true, but let's not leave out those who are often clamoring to cut spending. They, too, could refuse their military pensions, social security, etc. I haven't seen too many opting to do that on these boards. Have you?

Some of my closest friends are teachers, and what they say privately does not support Parr or the unions ridiculous nonsense and they themselves hope the current circumstances will flush a bunch of dead weight out of the ranks and create better opportunities and working conditions for themselves. The honesty is refreshing when the union isn't looking over their shoulders.

Want to privatize schools? Starve them of money, talent and capital, then point to their failures. Want smaller government? Cut spending until agencies and institutions fail, then point to the uselessness and ineffectiveness of government. This is the stategy of wealthy, selfish conservatives to divide and conquer America's civil society and replace it with social Darwinism.

Good for Al Gore, what is reprehensible is when rich guys like Gore, Obama, Clinton whoever use the class rhetoric tactics to push certain agendas but leave loopholes to avoid them. I always laugh when I hear a politician talk about the rich paying their fair share knowing very well they will do everything they can legally to avoid paying more. Probably the biggest DB that uses this tactic is Warren Buffet, he lives mostly on stocks and pays capital gains then complains how he only pays 15% in taxes, nobody is stopping him or anyone else from paying more, you can send a check anytime you want, they will accept it. But people fall for the ridiculous emotional doublespeak because the number of votes for the 98 or 99% vastly outnumbers the rich, allowing the politicians to use the victim card on enough people to get votes. It truly is a sick system that people willingly play into.

greatplain,

No. In the united states everyone has the opportunity to become wealthy. This is one reason why the rest of the world wants to live here....even al gore.

I honestly wish people had as much passion for the much more dangerous and ever growing debt and upcoming inflation and dollar devaluation as they did about guns and their cushy benefits.

Walker and the current Rep. legislators were all funded with private school money. American Federation for Children has spent millions in phony issue ads, etc... So, starve the beast so it fails and bring in the private company to run it. It's not about saving money it's about shifting money. If I were the union I'd demand the records Dr. Schulte has with this group and check the campaign disclosure records and hire a private eye to check the relationship BIll and others on the board has with them. And for you tea totalers we still have the $3 Billion deficit which will only grow with more tax cuts for Walker paymasters.Locally, Statewide and national cries about taxes and deficits is only to get your vote not about saving you money or giving you more rights or freedoms. Greed Inc. has already sold your soul for you.

TCB: Al Gore just made a bundle. You don't resent a Liberal making the big megabucks, do you?

fordfan, I understand your point I once held that same belief, however I guess I have more faith people to be decent and use common sense than you do. I find very few things that need government intervention on the mass scale we currently have, as I have stated before I refuse to subscribe to the victim mentality that is so popular with too many people.

Mouse,

Are you referring to Al Gorezzera? Selling his cable company to an overseas cable operator?

When wil you realize that we live and work in a global economy?

Your pathetic jealously on how a private citizen earned his money is tiring. Then again, this is what one can expect from you. You consistently demonstrate that your knowledge of most issues is a nanometer deep and wide.

Mitt Romney lost-its a consequence of free elections a winner and a loser. However, who will Obama blame for this economy? (I know who you'll blame-probably the same person).

TCB & Eagle, The point that I was trying to get at was that when there is no unionized labor force with some bargaining and political clout, it will be much easier to get rid of labor laws. Companies do not like unions because they have to listen to them but have no obligation to do as they ask unless it is in a contract. If the company does not want to do something, they should not agree to it in a contract. Lazy people do not like to bargain - instead they like to dictate. Walker is a classic example. I worked for a large company years ago that was non-union and they were scared to death of unionization and made many policy/pay changes over the years to keep a union out. Do you think they would have done that without the chance of a union being formed?

TCB - what did you mean by "I am disgusted at the status quo attitude that mediocrity should be accepted and promoted."? Are you saying that teachers have that attitude?

Youa also said "..dont force me to be in a union and force me to pay dues and force me to support your political positions as a condition of employment." No one is forcing you to be in a union...you are totally free to go elsewhere to work for much less.

Eagle - I am sorry that I scared you - that was not my intent.

Bill,

I assume that Mr Parr is a "do as I say" not as I do type of union Boss. This is the "chicken Little-the sky is falling" response that is printed on page 1 of the union playbook.

Scare the tax paying public to believe that the "children" will suffer due to changes in future teacher contracts. The reality is the district wishes to attract, retain, and hire the best teachers it can within the current economic reality. The status quo is no longer affordable nor is it acceptable.

Th truth is that the school board and the union probably are very close on the vast majority of issues and that union's tried and true straw man argument is that any change = hating teachers. This argument rings hollow for most reasonable citizens.

TCB: Anyone that compares public schools with businesses hasn't worked in a public school.

A couple of things to mention here. First, I work in the financial world and I would advise all people old enough to retire to do so. If you think this board isn't going to cut the retirement benefits you are insane. Second, I'm pretty sure that the anti bargaining bill hasn't yet been adopted yet by the state so shouldn't they be working on a new contract until the higher courts work out the legality of the new law?

I must say that I was somewhat amused about what Mr. Parr said in the article. To wit: "They didn't say they'll work with us. There's a clear difference between work and listen,". That's the same Mr. Parr who, for the last couple of years, said that he and his union would listen to the school board's budget concerns, but they never agreed to work with them and they did not, either.

Now the worm has turned and the weeping and gnashing of teeth has begun over the political power shift. The union can no longer control both sides of a bargaining table that doesn't exist.

It's easy to understand why Mr. Parr and his union are perplexed. But does he really think that telling folks to quit because of it is the right thing to do? Will he take his own advice?

Mouse I think i understand. You dont know where Mitt Romney and Al Gore earned their millions of dollars. Though I am pretty certain that both earned their money in the private sector and that no national govt "gave" them their millions.....only the opportunity to earn.

Interestingly enough-While Al Gore flunked out of college-he still did pretty well. So he is living proof that college is not for everyone and you can still be very successful.

Mouse,

South AMerican culture? Native AMerican Culture? What is american culture?

The teacher's union tells us that they are dedicated to the education of our children first and foremost. Dave Parr is proving that to be a lie with his "retire now" advice. So much for children first. And TCB is right. Mr. Parr is trying to scare the public as well as his own membership with his cynical "advice". Furthermore, Mr. Parr's "advice" implies that the recent graduates with teaching degrees and state teaching certification who will replace the retirees that take his "advice" are going to be vastly inferior, even unqualified. Hogwash. Many, perhaps even most but by no means all, of the older teachers that Mr. Parr "advises" to retire could easily be replaced with freshly trained and highly motivated youngsters eager to ply the trade they've spent so much time training for. Personally, I hope that many of Mr. Parr's members do just as he asks. If money and union loyalty outweigh their desire to teach, we'll be better off without them. An infusion of fresh and eager minds may do the district a lot of good. As for the retirees that take Mr. Parr's advice, they will have an opportunity to build themselves a new pension and even better retirement security elsewhere, like certain ex-teachers from Janesville who took advantage of new opportunities by moving to places such as tax-free Nevada and found new employment while collecting benefits from here but feel entitled to preach to us about what we should do back in good old Janesville.

Stubby Jan 11, 2013 at 9:20 a.m. Quote, "Most districts have, under the authority of Act 10, reduced benefits and increased costs to employees. Most have reduced post-retirement benefits from an average of 6 years to 4, 2 or none at all. So, yes, Mr. Parr's advice to his members is both warranted and wise because most districts are reducing benefits." End Quote
Most employers in the private sector have also reduced benefits, largely due to costs. The pension equivelant in the private sector is the 401k. For many people the employer match has been reduced or eliminated. Teachers too are impacted by economical realities.
By the way, Dave Parr said that some would LOSE thier benefits. He did not say that they would only be reduced.

again with this. Be happy you have a job that pays this well with a lot of time off, vacation pay, sick pay, holidays off. So you would have to pay a bit of your bennies. Most people don't get any at all. Some people pay a lot towards the ones they get and most will never see pension.

mouse,

You're the person with the analogy-explain it. I am not smart enough to follow your cogent, reasoned posts. I fully admit it. I am asking for help and yet all you want to do is ask why is big bird yellow? I dont follow you....

Where is the country that gave Mitt Romney his money? Because I want to get in line for mine....(I'll take your share if you dont want it) and is it the same country that gave Al gore his 300 Million?

Or perhaps Romney and Gore both earned their money?

Mouse,

WHich county gave mitt romney his 200 Million? That is the county I want to be in....did you get any? Is it the same country that gave Al Gore his 300 Million? (Did gore create a new carbon credit currency?)....

Fordfan,

90% of "workers" go to work without union protection. How can they do this? Who will protect these 90%?

Fordfan,

Should students form a union? Who will protect them if they cannot or will not do their homework from receiving bad grades? Its not fair for students...

Employees, I would be cautious with this recommendation.

Nothing from stopping the legislature from enacting a law (like Michigan did), that reduces benefits. And mandates past and current retirees co-pay health benefits after they retire.

If there is a large number that retire, I would bet something will be legislated to pay for all the new retirees.

Do your homework! before you make such a big decision. Cause the union isn't gonna pay your bills.

fordfan,

When are you going to stop with the pathetic rhetoric? I dont hate teachers. I dont hate anyone. (I really dont like the bears or vikings-but I dont hate them either). I am disgusted at the status quo attitude that mediocrity should be accepted and promoted.

If you wish to join a labor union because you prefer that someone else dictate what you will earn-and pay them a fee to do it-I support you 100%. However, dont force me to be in a union and force me to pay dues and force me to support your political positions as a condition of employment. Its called freedom of association- a term ironically that unions used to GROW their ranks-however, union bosses dont realize that this cuts both ways-that no one should be forced to join civil society organizations against their free will.

When you expose the true nature of unions-the protection of senior employees at the expense of junior employees--the public agrees with me. The time to think differently about education and the delivery of education has long passed. Unions are on a path to extinction-unless they can embrace the economic realities of competition and can unions deliver REAL economic value to its members. If they cannot meet these challenges-they are dinosaurs.

When you have the courage to have a cogent rational discussion-I am here.

Some reading on a few union issues…once unions are gone, who will protect workers – even those current union haters. Use your heads instead of following the Tea Party line.

Minimum wage
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/22...

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/01/01/c...

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/0913/c...

http://2012.republican-candidates.org/Mi...

Child Labor
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/201...

(Close to home)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/tak...
Creeping Rollback of Child Labor Laws
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/...

Get rid of the DOL
“Easy stuff; you get rid of the Department of Labor, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Education. You can get rid of all of those. They're not necessary.”
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heat...

Third eye is very clearly not well informed about changes under Act 10. Most districts have, under the authority of Act 10, reduced benefits and increased costs to employees. Most have reduced post-retirement benefits from an average of 6 years to 4, 2 or none at all. So, yes, Mr. Parr's advice to his members is both warranted and wise because most districts are reducing benefits. So if teachers can still receive 6 years of benefits now, or wait and receive 4 or fewer years of reduced benefits later, why not take the 6 years? I sure would.

jasondowd,

Teachers are not "placed" into situations. No one forces any teacher to teach. They are forced to join the union-whether that teacher believes in unionization or not.

Teachers earn fair pay and benefits-they have a union that NEGOTIATES the salaries and benefits on behalf of its members-if teachers didnt think it was fair- they would not accept their situation (unless you believe they are "placed" or forced to teach by some overlord). Pay is not based on ability it is solely bases on tenure and education. Like any profession there are good employees and bad employees. Unfortunately school districts are forced to retain bad employees. Who loses-the students of those teachers.

You personally know many teachers who were "above average"- like a C+ who left the profession? Why? Why did they leave? Was there above average rating given by their employers or by you?

As for those students who looked at becoming teachers-why will the profession suffer? The young teachers are the first fired when school districts enrollment declines or economic reality forces districts to cut back. this is the union way-seniority not talent dictates who stays or who goes.

Say what?

Advise in the union dictionary means do what we say... go lick a window.

"The unions have maintained that the circuit court rulings allow resumption of contract negotiations." Shocking! I'm guessing they're pushing for a contract with no expiration.

Janesville is one of the very few districts that are still under an old contract. A majority of school districts already operate under Act 10. Did any of the teachers in those districts "lose benefits"? If so to what extent?
Act 10 requires the teachers to pay a share of their health care and pension benefits, just like the rest of us have been doing for many years. Is this a reason to retire? Act 10 creates a handbook, much like the rest of us have worked under our entire working lives. Is this a reason to retire?
Bottom line: Dave Parr is giving bad advice.
Eagle1@7:50am gives the better advice, "I know individualism is not a pillar of the union mentality but the members would probably be much better off if they adopted it for themselves."

luvujvl: I don't think many teachers want to retire, they would prefer to remain. The problem is teaching is a profession and teachers need to pay mortagages, have worked years for their pensions, and need health insurance. Why would someone who has worked at a job for 20 + years want to continue at this point. I don't think it is a lack of love for what they do. Look at any job and ask any employee whether public or private. If there is a potential to lose benefits which they have earned or may be reduced, who wouldn't retire to keep them. Throw in the sentiment that teachers are not worth what they are paid and are consistently bashed by people, I wouldn't want to be a teacher either. At one time, teachers were seen as an asset to a community. it's sad that this has changed in the minds of many.

Just a question here and this is not exclusive to the teachers union but all unions, isn't it a bit insulting for the union to tell their members to reitre because of whatever reason, are the members not smart enough to figure out what is best for themselves? Isn't it everyones individual responsibility to pay attention to what may or may not affect them down the road and make decisions for themselves that benefit them the best? Just a thought, I know individualism is not a pillar of the union mentality but the members would probably be much better off if they adopted it for themselves. I guess I don't subscribe to the victim mentality many of these organizations cultivate to maintain their power, pretty sad really.

It's just sad that teachers are placed in a situation where they are seen as a bunch of money grubbing, freeloading, opportunists. Receiving fair pay and benefits shouldn't be too much to ask and it shouldn't be too much to ask a school board to work with those they employ. Teachers have a direct inpact on job growth, trained employees, and producing an educated community. With all the talk of accountability measures; if good teachers leave, there may be some money saved but the quality of education provided to students is going to suffer. I know many teachers who have left the public school system all together for the private sector in jobs that have nothing to do with education. They were all above average educators. The effects of today will affect our children many years to come, I know of many students, who looked at becoming teachers, are now focusing on different professions and the quality of teachers will be suffering for numerous years. It would amazing to see governmental bodies focus on the future and think about the ramifications of their decisions.

i would have to agree with TCB. At one time, unions were a much needed entity which saved employees from sweat shops and unfair wages. but over time they have developed into a self serving overpowered monster with a "MOB" like mentality. We do not hate teachers. I applaud them with the great job that they do, with what modern society has turned into. Do to the current mindset that children have been given with the politicaly correct ideology that there will be no spankings or little or no repurcutions for wrongful acts these kids act like ... well... union members

"Parr said he has heard from many who would prefer to continue teaching, but they are retiring because they fear they'll lose benefits when the contract expires." Those that stay for the love of their jobs will exemplify what it means to truly be a great teacher.

TBC: No, YOU HATE UNIONS.

Disrespect a teacher then you disrespect yourself

We had a great public education system when I was growing up. I had great public school teachers. They had secure jobs.

My kids will not be so fortunate because a few people in this state would rather pass a brick than see their property taxes go up $1.

Teacher's BEWARE...Get out of the way of the GOP steamroller Scott Walker...it's aimed at your job! Walker's budget took power and authority away from local school boards and slashed nearly $1.6 billion in state aid to local public school districts, while increasing funding for schools run by private organizations, including for-profit corporations, like those favored by the conservative American Federation of Children. The American Federation of Children, run in Wisconsin by longtime Republican operative Scott Jensen, a colleague of Scott Walker's in the Legislature, spent nearly $820,000 on independent expenditures and phony issue ads in the 2010 fall elections. Scott Walker himself was the recipient of $70,000 in direct contributions from so-called "choice" advocates. [WI Act 10, Wisconsin Democracy Campaign]

Scott Walkers plan in action........
.
Yep, the super rich don't need no public schools....

Anyone remember Sterling Sharpe with the Packers? He had a contract but wouldn't play without a raise - he said it was only business. Shortly after coming back he was seriously injured. The Packers said "good bye it's only business". The union refused to talk when they were asked. Why should they be listened to now? They made their own bed and have to sleep in it. It's only business. Dedicated teacher's will be listened to far more than with an obstructionist union in the way.

After reading some of these posts by TCB, I think I understand why they hate the teachers (they use unions as an excuse to hate the teachers actually). When they had a chance for education, they totally blew it so now want to feel "rich" by making others “poor” - like them. Now TCB even complains about not getting a defined pension plan ("Tell this to the person who has a 401K or Roth IRA......") but still supports the political party that advocates for the getting rid of all defined pension plans (public or private). Really should have paid attention is applied logic class......

Duh...A no-brainer...Get it while you can...USA is going dowwwwwwnnnnnn
Thanks Republicans and Democrats

realist,

No one hates teachers. We love teachers. Society hates unions. Which is why 90% of businesses choose not to unionize. At one time the looked out for the membership today they look to the revenue stream of union dues to pay themselves.

The UAW-a pretty large union did a good jon of keeping GM in Janesville didnt it? The union goons were the last people in and the last one to draw a pay check. What the thousands of dollars of dues by the guy on the line? Nothing.

kidfirst,

If I were a teacher nearing retirement-53-53 I would indeed retire. Fortunately the vast majority of teacher in my experience in the JSD taught because they loved to teach. The union nonsense is just that nonsense. but everyone is force to join-seems fair right? The union plays no part in improving the education of students-they are like any labor union-out of the benefit of the union members-pay your dues and nothing more.

eire,

Teachers who fear competition in the market place or that management is out to get the employee is the "story" that is taught. Janesville demographics show that only 20% of adults have a 4 college degree-children look up to teachers, its a great profession, one that has profound impact on students lives. If teachers do not understand that employers are not out to get employees and the world is not Upton Sinclair Sausage factory-then how do kids get ahead?

Its time to End the victimization status. Teachers are not victims. They are paid a market clearing wage-like any profession that is subject to the ebb and flow of general economic conditions.

Badgerfan,

Perhaps I was young when I graduated-17. 21 or 22-so 30 years of teaching-even if you went to Parker High school- this would be 52 or 53. Most men and women born in the United states have life expectancy of 79-80 years old-even in Wisconsin.

Retire at 53 or 54. Live another 25-30 years , contribute 60 K to your own retirement and retire with benefits in excess of 1$ million? Not a bad gig. Tell this to the person who has a 401K or Roth IRA......

dtb,

A fair shake? The union members pay people like DAve parr to guarantee a fair shake-so yes, the teachers each of which are compelled to join the union get what they deserve.

Very sad what Scooter's union busting strategy has done to the once great Wisconsin educational system.

Soddeman - Please let me help you find something better to do with your time. You're not here to improve the quality of this district. You continue to make things worse. I'm tired of your personal agenda. Let's get back to the basics of doing what's right for the children of this district. Your days are numbered Soddeman.

A special thanks goes out to all of those who will be retiring! Our kids are better off as a result of having you as their teachers. Thank you for your service!

It is funny when a conservative says we should hire teachers that are younger, and have a fresher perspective. At the same time you are stuck in the 1960's mentality on society and education. EXAMPLES---Renovations, we don't need to update schools. They are fine they way they are. Air conditioning, we never had it and we survived. Computer updates, what is wrong with textbooks. Special ed funding, we had 1 teacher for 40 kids. Breakfast programs-Why should I have to pay for someone else's kids food. Pay and Benefits-I haven't had a pay raise in 2 years niether should the teachers.

Lets just face it Janesville, the hating of teachers is because they have something you don't. (Not for long, right Billy?) If it cost you a dime it isn't worth it. It is that plain and simple. You think they don't deserve what they have and until they are below you pay and benefits wise you won't be happy. Pretty simple minded town this is.

916wi - why don't you volunteer at your job to help lower costs to the consumer or increase profits to your business owner(s)(assuming you have a job). I don;t really know what you do but based on what I see you are not worth what you are getting paid (using the same logic that you use to toward teachers)

kidsfirst....I totally agree with you. If it has become more about the money than the kids, then you should leave. Give the younger teachers that might have different, fresher perspectives and youthful energy a shot. I think it's admirable that you would step aside and continue on as a volunteer.........

Take the money and run.

"Scott Walkers plan in action........ hope the backer enjoy less education for your kids."
--------
Mouse--If your intellect/intelligence was the result of having more education for kids, then less is definitely a road we should travel down!

TCB
Why would this scare the general public?

It is simply a statement of fact. Teachers who may be at the top of their game and eligible for retirement should take note. Opportunities to retire with benefits are not in the future.

`````
we will leave. new teachers will replace (2 new :3 retired???) to save the district money. There is no incentive to stay except the intrinsic benefit of knowing we are making a difference in the lives of our students. I can do that as a volunteer. . . The district will save money. That is what most of the commenters on these blogs want.

eire & realist – unfortunately people like TCB do not care if they are spreading rumors and lies. It is all about winning to them – any way possible and without concern for the damage they cause (after all, it is anonymous and no one can pin this shame on them). There are several others out here that do the same thing but they haven’t yet shown up. I feel very badly for the teachers in Wisconsin.

TCB,
"No one - except Dave Parr - believe that teachers will lose benefits"
Really,
"We're not trying to force people away, but there probably will be some changes to it," Sodemann said.

You then went on in your complete B.S. post to write "Heres an idea-retire with a fully tax payer funded pension at 52 years old (assuming you started working at 21), receive a nice check for all unused sick pay, and then work as a long term sub nearly doubling your income!"
Absolutely nothing in this entire statement is true and yet you claim "This is a feeble attempt by the union to scare the general public ". A feeble attempt to scare or a pretty educated assumption based on the genius school board president comments?

Time to remove Bill and the band of clowns.

TCB what is so scary about my union? Because I know my contract, know my rights, and have been teaching for 22 years I do find it scary, but not for the reasons you propose. How is this information trying to scare the "general public"? Dave Parr is my elected union president and is telling his union members his honest opinion. Secondly, what do you mean by "And that is what is taught to children"? Why would I teach students about a benefits package. Next, no one in the SDJ can retire at 52 "with a fully tax payer funded pension". And lastly, I am a tax payer too. Just because I am a public school teacher does not mean I do not pay taxes. SOME of my own retirement is paid from my taxes--and in WI the propery taxes I pay also pay my salary. Please see a bigger picture. Much of your comment is not 100% correct.

TCB-How many teachers do you know that started teaching at 21? The earliest possible for most teachers would be 22. You know, 4 years for college. You may only be off by a year, but I'm sick of people shooting their big mouths off about teachers when they don't have their facts straight or have any idea what they are talking about.

TCB, is there really any reason to believe that this school board will give it's teachers a fair shake?

This is a feeble attempt by the union to scare the general public by claiming that those at or near retirement age will lose benefits. No one - except Dave Parr - believe that teachers will lose benefits. (And this is what is taught to children!)

Heres an idea-retire with a fully tax payer funded pension at 52 years old (assuming you started working at 21), receive a nice check for all unused sick pay, and then work as a long term sub nearly doubling your income!

Send another administrator to china In fact send them all.. It is sad that the value of learning from great teachers Has come to this. May all those that deny teachers what the deserve for their hard work and dedication see beyond political BS and do what is right. The School board can be replaced and After the lass of 20 children in Newtown Do not devalue their Job as nothing. The heroic teachers of Newtown put their children ahead of their own life and their are teachers in Janesville that would do the same.