Any hobbies I like, I pay for myself. Golfers should do the same.

@tj: "Why not figure out how this can make a buck or two for the city? If you can't, sell it to someone who can make money on it". We're on the same page there. I have no problem if something is truly a money-maker. Note that something can be made to look profitable when in fact it is not.
As far as city league softball and volleyball - that's a much smaller expense so I won't comment at this time. Don't they have to pay to play?

"No vato- typical BS on your part. You have no credibility on the education subject, just hatred. Tax dollars goes to quality teachers and schools in Wisconsin. Union dues are a small part of their salary."

Rubbish...union .brainwashing of the highest order....or BSr of the

Why don't you ask your relative teachers or friends why they can't seem to close the achievement gap? I'd like to hear some of the things they tell you as to why some of these students can't read or write.......oh no it isnt their fault in the way they fail to address different learning styles..... as long as those scheduled salary step increases are in place....they have no worries....

Fear -- sorry but gotta say something. In order to be a teacher you must submit to giving your money to an organization, even or especially when you may disagree with the union direction. Thats extortion. At least when Igive money to someone (other than tax $$) it goes there because I intended it to. And when I find a problem with the way the money is handled - i.e. the United Waya few years back, I can selectively stop. My choice, not there's. I do not dislike unions because of what they are. I dislike their actions and the way the force or coerce membership, which is a form of power. They take the power out of my hands and I am now paying for someone else what I would prefer to do on my own using my feet or my experience and my ability. Unions are basically gangs from my perspective.

The government has no business investing in any business. If the courses cannot survive on their own -- especially for something like golf (which is where most elites (left or right) spend their time) close them. If your gonna subsidize golf or hockey or any other child driven sport, thats just wrong.

No vato- typical BS on your part. You have no credibility on the education subject, just hatred. Tax dollars goes to quality teachers and schools in Wisconsin. Union dues are a small part of their salary.

Superdave, are you the authority on what is and isn't a "legitimate government function? Seems to me there are a lot of city and county golf courses all over this state. Why not figure out how this can make a buck or two for the city? If you can't, sell it to someone who can make money on it.

Also, do you consider city league softball and volleyball "legitimate gubmint functions"?

@tj: You said "So let's forget all the money tat the city has made off the course in the last 25 years and close it because of one year in the red??". No. We should close it because it's not a legitimate gubmint function. And we should close it because this first year in the red portends more losses in the future.

"dollars, and if I have a choice where my tax dollars go its into the schools. "

Your money goes into WEAC basically...

"The school dist. and city are separate entities, yes. BUT they are both paid for with TAX dollars, and if I have a choice where my tax dollars go its into the schools."

Again endless blatherer, why should I pay to maintain the school swimming pools when my kids don't swim...?

Well--One nice thing about this is that instead of all the conservatives calling all of the liberals idiots and vice versa, this issue is, for the first time in a long time, causing conservatives to call other conservatives, and liberals other liberals, idiots. It seems to be driven by who likes to golf and who doesn't instead of by political ideologies.

gbwbill-So if over the last 25 years the golfers using Riverside have actually paid 105% of the cost (just a estimate since the city profited from the course those years) should they have gotten a rebate?

You don't need to answer I am pretty sure you won't understand this post anyway.

Golfers should be paying 100% of the cost of their hobby. Not us Janesville tax payers.

So let's forget all the money tat the city has made off the course in the last 25 years and close it because of one year in the red?? Some people need a reality check around here. If raising the rounds a buck or two pulls it to even, then do it. Let's not be so short sighted and quick to pull the trigger on the courses. There are many other subsidized activities in this city that haven't historically contributed a dime to the city coffers.

I am all for helping the community through measures that will have a positive return for the community as a whole. I am flabbergasted to see that this was approved. Golf... really? People are starving and homeless and you subsidize golf courses. Jay Winzenz you ought to be ashamed! There are starving kids, homeless, schools are in shambles. Solution... Golf. Supply and demand. These courses (or some) could be sold in accordance to supply and demand needs to public to bring money to other needs. These courses (with the exception of Glen Erin if that) are not going to draw tourism, so why? Unrealistic at best.

I'm angry that I have been overcharged for golf at the city courses the last 25 years. I want a refund!

The school dist. and city are separate entities, yes. BUT they are both paid for with TAX dollars, and if I have a choice where my tax dollars go its into the schools. The city should focus on keeping up the services of the city and keeping her clean, outside that, forget subsidizing Golf, DUMB!!
The schools have a "checking account. And by my count it is almost always sitting around about a 20 million dollar balance!! I am so sick and tired of this bantering about value for tax dollars, its mind numbing and the blather frankly needs to stop. this story is a prime example of waste in government. Ignore necessities and subsidize "special interests' a complete and total microchosm of everey thing nowadays.

The taxpayers already subsidize enough rounds of gold with Obama in the White House. If raising the price will balance the budget, do it. If raising the price will turn golfers to other courses, well that’s capitalism for you.

Right on Ezoner.

WHAT??????!!!!!!
This is B.S.

All of us have been hurt by the lousy economy, increased cost of gas etc. I have less in my 401K, have gone without a raise for years. I have to spend less not more. Why is the city different?

Ezoner, why would you say 'If we are subsidising public courses, there must be union labor.', and out of which orifice did you pull that from? The credibility of any of your opionions just took a huge nosedive.

I say close the courses. If people wnat to golf, go to a private course. If we are subsidising public courses, there must be union labor. Close the course. It shoudl either survive on its own or shut down. Sell the property.

Bassinthumg, you said, 'We are using tax money to subsidize the golf courses so they can compete with the privately owned ones around Janesville'. The Janesville muni courses were here way before the newer private courses. Nobody forced the private courses to be built. They made a decision that the market could support additional courses. It's also important to keep in mind that before Riverside, Janesville residents needed to belong to the Country Club if they wished to participate in the game of golf.

What most of you people don't understand is that you can't just increase the cost by "a couple bucks"!!!!

You ask why?!?

Because if you do, I will just go golf somewhere else for less and then you tax payers will be on the hook for EVEN MORE MONEY!!

Maybe they should LOWER the price by "a couple bucks" so it makes more golfers want to go there!
DUUUUUH

Well said youkillme. Subsidies don't all 'fit' into one school of thought. Each subsidy has its own specific purpose and is usually politically motivated. For example, one of the homeowner's subsidies is in the form of a write-off for mortgage interest paid. If the government wanted us to buy furniture it would allow a write-off for your next sofa.

A poor economy cost everyone. Tax dollars will always be the solution for big government unless you start voting in true conservatives. Blue dog Democrats are still out there too, however, it sounds like they are treating these courses as public property like parks, and pools to justify taking my money.

The School District and the City are separate entities. Separate budgets. Separate checking accounts. Separate decision making bodies. Separate income and expense flows. School expenses have nothing to do with the City.

So if they were once making money maybe they should have put that in the future budget to spend when times were not good.

That is what we are supossed to do. Right.
To bad this doesn't work for us.
Spend all your winning and when you lose get it fromt he tax payer.
I guess when I think of it like that my vote changes.
Increass the fees by the $2 you need per person.

copo- I think the tax payer pays enough when it comes to school. Free breakfast,lunch free school.millions spent on gyms and lunch rooms. Now you think we should also pay to get them there???!!!
Pay for you own bus fair for you own kid(s) and more kids.

People, please think about it.
Prior to last year, The golf courses have been generating POSITIVE CASH FLOW since the mid 1980's. That's 25 years worth of POSITIVE CASH FLOW that the city has been able to spend on other things.
I don't think there's another public entity that has a track record anywhere near that (pools, senior center, ice arena, library, and dawson park all come to mind).
If history is any indicator, the economy will recover at some point, and the golf courses will once again start generating POSITIVE CASH FLOW.
This is not a time to consider selling or closing the golf courses. It is, however, a time to clamp down on unnecessary spending at the golf courses, and every other publicly owned or maintained facility.

I agree RoCochick. I'm not big on local government operating and owning a golf course, but it is a public-to-public transaction. I find those less intrusive on the taxpayer and free market democracy than when government selectively hands out collective cash, tax credits and free land to private-for-profit business when banks are available and interest rates are low.

youkillme - the 'public dollars' that you refer to is not actually free money for the government to spend as they wish - it's the taxpayer's money that should be spent only as needed.

JANESVILLE — For the first time since the mid-1980s, Janesville taxpayers are subsidizing the city's two golf courses.
Could someone please tell us how much money the city has made over the years with the golf courses.

The taxpayer will remain passive until the city starts operating gas stations or department stores. Most taxpayers prefer the city to provide only the essential services. But government wants to grow and does so with the taxpayer's money.

Why would anyone be against government using public dollars to subsidize public enterprise when we look the other way when public dollars are used to subsidize private enterprise?

I wonder what Ron Paul would have to say about this dilemma. Why should we taxpayers support your habit of pursuing personal pleasure at our public cost? I would like to have a professional racetrack in my adjacent city park. But should other taxpayers be expected to pay for it?

I knew I could count on siggy on this one!!LOL

What you people dont understand is that you cant continue to grow and add new things without money. At the rate the city grew and the commodities they added you cant add things at the same rate when the population isnt rising the same. I know most of you spend first, think later, but there needs to be some cuts here and there to maintain the other things more people enjoy. We've added, parks, trails, this all costs us tax payers money. And someone thought we needed it. But when does it stop? When the city is so far in debt and china buys us out?

So let me get this straight, We are using tax money to subsidize the golf courses so they can compete with the privately owned ones around Janesville? I think if I owned a golf course I would not like this. I guess it's like Rotary Gardens with their plant sales every year that compete with the local greenhouses.

Close up one of the courses and raise the price by $2 at the other. If golfers prefer to go elsewhere, then close them both so the privately owned ones can prosper.

It obviously costs more to do less.

HAHA- What in the heck does that have to do with anything? The guy doesn't want to be harassed by little rednecked hooligans and it freaked out his wife. Should he be a tough guy amd beat em up? I don't understand your angle on that post, but nothing surprises me here what people are willing to say to others. One of the people I used to enjoy debating issues with has turned into a name caller as well.

I also love the fact that there are some on here that are almost always pissing and moaning about school funding, and tax hikes yet are okay with this? What unbelievable hypcricy!!
I play golf and love it!! That being said I would be willing to pay an extra buck or two so that the tax payers of our community dont have to contribute to my hobby!
In a community where we struggle to fund schools, this should be at the absolute bottom of any plan to spend tax dollars, period!! You wanna see a microchosm of how America overspends, here it is!! It is my guess the ones that are on here defending this crap are the same ones that a) Are retired, b)Have no kids at home, c) are self centered medicare/medicaid/SS collectors that dont want any future generations to have anything.

Autoworker2- "We always make sure to get our errands done early so we can be at home by dusk. Two years ago we were returning home from Milton in the summer, and got caught up in the kids out on Milton Ave. We were cut off by speeders swerving in and out of traffic. We rolled up our windows and locked the doors as the kids were yelling at us at red lights. It frightened my wife rather badly. Now we always make sure to be home by dark."
- This is one of your previous posts, this explains EVERYTHING about you.

"Jack up the prices so those who use,pay!"
and if they raised the price of an impala to $100,000, we wouldn't have had to bail out GM.

fogger> dont your recall Walker posters ost and repost the same message over and over again. Its not that simple here in Janesville unless you want to choose or can afford to pay $45 a month per student for to public bus transportation company here inJanesville.. I have lived in many places some smaller some larger then Janesville all but Janesville provided transportation to and from school payed for by property tax payers like myself. this year I am paying $3000 in property tax $900 is going to the school district of Janesville.

bucky12345, I agree that the 'city should not be in the golf course business', and the city is not in the golf course business. The city is merely the property owner. If the cost per round needs to increase in order to cover costs, then that should happen. In any event, Riverside and Blackhawk represent investments made by generations past, and failure to recognize those investments is shameful.

Why aren't all the movie theatres subsidized? I suggest the city taxpayers foot the bill for admission for citizens who wish to be entertained. The city should install the giant screen IMAX movie theatres so Janesville is not behind other cities that already have them. The city should also subsidize the snack bars in the theatres so to attendees do not feel deprived of any of life's enjoyments they may desire but may not be able to afford on their own. We could raise city taxes an extra $200.00 per household in order to subsidize the champagne dreams of those who cannot afford it. They deserve it, and taxpayers should be expected to pick up the tab for them. Unleash the floodgates.

@avid. You are twisting my words and you know it.I split my time between the Janesville courses and other local courses and will continiue to do so.I am not going to rehash everybody's points that have been made but I do not use the ice arena, the pool, many of the parks, or senior center. I understand those are important to the community as a whole so I do not mind some of my tax dollars going to them.

I don't use the golf courses either but I do agree that quality of life in a city this size is very important as stated by several previous posters. Hopefully, it's a temporary solution. I'm all for keeping our community alive and well. I would like to see more programs for youth to participate in golf, even if it means spending a few extra dollars.

I don't have kids but I play golf. I personally wish all my tax dollars went to golf instead of those free loading kids. But seriously Saxcat is right. Some people want janesville to turn into the most boring place on earth(tm).

copo- did you state this not long ago. Many cities don't have a bus for school unless they are in the county even then I don't know who pays for that bus. In the city you walk to a corner and get the city bus. EASY!

Stop complaining about not using the things Janesville has to offer and GO use them. Golf is good excerise and fun. I stink at it and don't go much myself but we all pay. The ice rink doesn't seem to be used as much as the golf course. This seems to make more sence to me.
Again stricter budgets may work some things out but it seems this is never looked into to find more money for any of these facilities. Actually they looked into the budget of the pools and decided to not be open as long and had weird closing times. Need to look at things in a smarter way to fix a budget. My hubby is in charge of a pool and could come up with a feww things for them just by reading the article they printed about some of their costs.

there should b lot more important things, what kind of city doesent offer school bus transportation to and from school

saxcat and HAHAHA, exactly. What you said.

saxcat70-"you people are crazy. let's just shut down everything the city provides. don't light the streets, because some people don't go out at night. don't plow the roads, or heck even maintain roads at all, because not everybody drives. can the police dept and fire dept, because not everybody has emergencies. Library and schools? Gone. not everyone reads or cares to be educated. close all the parks, because not everybody uses them."

Most common sense comment on here! I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince any of you people, half of you are just on here to argue with each other. GET A LIFE PEOPLE

I have no idea the distance of 18 holes. Ive never been golfing. I've walked across janesville though. I walk my dog all over when its that hot. I dont consider walking much of an exercize for most people, they are slow and dont push themselves. You power walk 18 holes or casually enjoy the time there? Golf is a leisure sport, not an endurance sport, golf slacks and polo shirts do you really work up a sweat?...riding a golf cart?

the naysayers on this are hopeless, clueless, and destined for LESS.
"I think we should promote being healthy instead of paying for part of the laziest sport there is"

Hey Sigma....how many times have you walked 18 holes in 90 degree heat????

"Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out."
Ralph Nader

Why not sell both Riverside & Blackhawk or close Blackhawk and sell Riverside, the city should not be in the golf course business, especially when they loss money. We should also get out of the ice arena business. If a private business doesn't want to buy these white elephants then they should close or raise rates to a self supporting level.I know people will whine that we close something they use but if they won't pay the cost to keep them going they need to close. The tax payer should not pay to keep them viable.

Why should I be paying for the maintenance of swimming pools in schools when my kids don't swim?

why should we pay for golfers if we don't golf?
the people who want to golf should be paying more. this is ridiculous!

It just blows my mind how the city can find money to support adults activities, yet can not find any money to support kids activites such as skate and bike park. In the two yrs of helping out the seniors Janesviille could have had a very nice skate park for kids. No the people of Janessville and city council think only of themselves and to heck with kids. Let them roam the streets with nothing to do because there family can not afford to put them into organized activities. This really upsets me how priorities are only for adults.

Why doesnt tax money cover part of peoples gym membership? I think we should promote being healthy instead of paying for part of the laziest sport there is. These are all ways of the olden days, days where what the people of higher power wanted, they got. So they played golf, its natural for them to want someone else to pay for it. I think Janesville should not invest ANY tax money into anything recreational except property like parks and pavilians. Any activities that go on there, games, sports... should all be paid for by the people doing it. A city run bussiness that is not nescesary is gambling with my tax dollars.

These golf courses aren't motivated by evil profits, so I am sure they are more efficient than evil golf club profiteers who put profits before people.

Consequently, this article cannot be true. It is just right-wing Faux news. Don't believe a word of it!

To the nay sayers on the ice rink this seems like a good investment....Not sure why more people are not up in arms regarding the Senior Centers price tag to operate, A place where only a few can use unlike the golf courses & Ice Center.

Why would tax payers pay anything on this? Golf brings nothing to the community. Why is it limited to golf? Why doesnt the tax go towards other things people do for recreation? Or was this initially requested by the city officials who play golf? I say turn the place into a motocross track....anything but a golf course. Lets pay someone 2 million to do a survey on it.

"No taxpayer subsidies for anything. I am sure that would make us very attractive to new businesses looking for a place to locate."

yep , because there will be so many happy, well rounded, trained employees looking for work!

you people are crazy. let's just shut down everything the city provides. don't light the streets, because some people don't go out at night. don't plow the roads, or heck even maintain roads at all, because not everybody drives. can the police dept and fire dept, because not everybody has emergencies. Library and schools? Gone. not everyone reads or cares to be educated. close all the parks, because not everybody uses them. just let the grass grow 17 feet high, and we can all hide and do nothing. then what will we have? a deserted city out of some mel gibson movie where everyone has rotten teeth.

I don't think we should subsidize anyone's entertainment in these troubled times. I feel that the pool, ice arena, parks, senior center, golf courses etc. should be put on a paying basis or be closed. No taxpayer subsidies for anything. I am sure that would make us very attractive to new businesses looking for a place to locate.

Who plays golf? People with more disposable income then others. Charge more to the golfers, not the tax payers. That $1.60 should go towards the parks for the children and not the golfers, if you need to take it from me at all.

which means that we all have been enjoying city services that were subsidized by the golf course.

I will once again say that this is short term. it is funny how most of the posters read "subsidize", but miss the first line of the article, which states that this is the first time since mid 80's. that means that it has been a money maker since then folks. You don't see the golfers posting on here that they want a refund from all of those years.

Next, Janesville taxpayers will be asked to subsidize Beluga caviar for the 1%. It's only fair, I guess.

We should also have our taxes raised to help pay for fur-lined slop-sinks, and solid gold toilet fixtures, for the super-wealthy of the Leyden 'hood. After all, they're the ones who have been creating so many jobs for the rest of us.

A municipal course is one which is owned by a city, town, county or municipality which charges daily fees, offers memberships to town residents at reduced rates and whose upkeep is the responsibility of the municipality.

And then we wonder why we are taxed to the max. Government should keep their noses out of things that should be privately funded.

And another thing, why haven't we, as taxpayers, been able to vote on this???

And another thing, why haven't we, as taxpayers, been able to vote on this???

I totally agree with MANNERS. Why is it ok for us to pay for the gold course but it's a crime to pay for good teachers and a good education? Something is definitely wrong here. Some people's priorities are all screwed up.

HAHAHA and dado4- So raising the prices here will just make you go elsewhere? So your not willing to pay the extra to play here but you expect those of us who don't golf to "pay extra" so you will stay here? Personally I don't care where you golf, but why should I have to pay towards it? Maybe if I wasn't paying towards everyone else's entertainment I might be able pay for my own.

Why is government involved with golf to begin with?

Once again (arghhhhh)...not a proper function of gubmint to own, maintain, or run multiple(!) golf courses! I do not golf, but if I did, I would expect to pay a private business for the use of their course. I would not expect a senior citizen on a fixed income, a low-income minority person, a family with a special needs child, or a blind person - to help pay for my golf. That is just cruel.

Once again the government takes control of a private business and bungles it. We need the city to shift many of it's chosen services to the private sector - including trash pickup, golf course, ice arenas and schools.

Janesvillage golf courses are a waist of time, play kemperlakes worth the drive...

If there are to many places some one will have to close up shop

Seems like Riverside and Blackhawk need to find some higher paying sponsors for each hole or take in some private donations. Haha

If you charge more than $1 extra per round I think more people will go to other courses. The Bonnie Meade in Milton only charges $5 for nine holes of golf 7 days a week. I think I paid $12 to walk Ceclia's last fall. Glen Erin and Prarie Woods are more upscale and reasonably priced as well.

EMMO46 + helge1939- There are too many places to choose from around here to simply just "charge more".

If you want you can go play 9 holes at Bonnie Meads in Milton for $5.

I prefer Glen Erin or Bass Creek personally.

Am I understanding this right? Those of us who never golf, can't even afford to golf, are paying towards the upkeep of these courses? No! No! No! Jack up the prices so those who use,pay!

Just charge more

I really don't want to subsidize somebody's golf game.
"In 2012, taxpayers will contribute about $1.60 for every golfer who tees off at Riverside or Blackhawk".
Here's how to fix it:
Raise the greens fee by $3 or $4 to cover the shortfall and pay for upgrades.

I played Blackhawk 30+ times last year but it defiantly needs upgrades! The bridges you need to cross are rough and ready to fall over, there is only 1 sand banker on the whole course, basically no pro shop and they don't sell food like other courses.
Those simple upgrades would bring the place customers thus more revenue.

Love how none of the complainers are here to yell about this...GOLF! Yet anytime more money is used for schools it's a crime.

It is no surprise that the Gazette favors the golf courses. They along with the ice arena should be sold. Let private owners make or break it with private funds.

For too long we have seen things in the city run the same as usual. I applaud the efforts to look at other ways of doing things. If we are to move forward, we need new ideas and new perspectives.

The taxpayer subsidizes many services which could be considered "quality of life" things. Not unusual in a City this size. And not a big subsidy, either. I hear it's a very good course (I don't golf).

While i'm not a big fan of the subsidy, I think it is short term. Alot of courses have popped up locally in recent years. the sports business is experiencing growing pains. I believe within 5 years the courses will turn profits again. If not, would the city consider selling them?