Perhaps everyone should remember that the money that government workers make, comes from the rest of us who work in the private sector. Government workers may pay taxes, but when there are more government workers making more money (whether it be benefits or wages) we're in trouble. If we keep raising salaries for government workers, while the rest of us are being frozen or cut, we run out of money. After many years of continuous raises and more benefits, it is high time that they have to pay a little more, after all they are still getting a raise, which a lot of people aren't.

Fear -- The arguement cannot be made that you are starving the system. There are districts and public education that has significantly (charter schools) better performance per $ spent. There are private schools that perform better with a lower spend. The problem is that public schools try to be all things to all people, they mix the kids that want to be there with the ones that do not. They mix the trouble makers with the well behaved kids. We restrict the corrective actions..... So in the end -- throwing money at the problem is NOT the answer. Understanding what needs to be fixed, and how to fix it may mean a different distribution of existing funds. Justify, verify and then talk about the spend.

I firmly believe that our system is broken. I firmly believe that the system as it is pits the students against the teachers, against the parents against the community. There needs to be a massive overhall of the system from a process perspective.

Vato- so if investment in education isnt the answer, what is YOUR solution. Do you have an educationally based one? Or an ideological, political one.
What you get for your money is a country/society where EVERYONE gets a chance to get educated, not just some. Maybe we should use the same thinking then with the military idustrial complex, "Throwing money at it won't fix the problem." That is an old argument that means nothing. Imrroving an educational system COSTS MONEY, sorry to have to be the one that lets you all in on it but you cannot expect the system to improve by privatizing it or starving it of funding.

So I ask again, why should people who have worked hard to attain the benefits they have be forced to give them up? Shouldn't people be worrying more about how to get a better deal in their own jobs instead of crucifying a few who held out for better conditions?

Ezoner, It will NEVER be enough because they want EVERYTHING. How much is enough? How much have you got?

Fear -- how much is enough? How much is too much, what should we spend per pupil and why? Nobody has that answer... NObody seems to be able to explain what the value gained is by increasing the taxes. Forgive me, but I want to know what I am getting for the money.. I also believe, that in tough times, thats when you can generate good ideas and decisions, to get by on less. WHen the money is flowing,,, its easy to add or keep schools, even though that may not be t he right decision. We are at a point of falling enrollment, increased cost per pupil and teachers that are unwilling to take responsibility for their own benefits. Its time....

So you vomited four times! Are you going for a record?

"Unfortunately public education CANNOT be looked at as a balance sheet, the tangible effects from it can not be measured by numbers. It also cannot be run like a business trying to make a profit."

I disagree fear. Billions of dollars are lost in WI due to drop outs.

Assuming that all students graduated from high school, it would add 4.5 billion dollars into the economy. How is that not a balance sheet? 4.5 Billion is a lot of money.

http://www.edchoice.org/CMSModules/EdCho...

Throwing money at a situation is not always the answer.

I post these quotes because jv93 comments seem quite cultish. Similar to what the leader I quoted was able to do.

My favorite quote that Republicans love: "Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction.”

All quotes form a famous leader that directly represents the direction of our nation in this world of partisanship, any guesses who made all these quotes? 5 points to the winner.
The funny thing is that almost every republican on this blog will love the one on this post until they discover who said it.

"""“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”""
“How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.”
“All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.”
“He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future.”
“It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.”
“Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.”
“"The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes"”
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator”
Who says I am not under the special protection of God?”
“Any alliance whose purpose is not the intention to wage war is senseless and useless.”
“What luck for the rulers that men do not think”
The doom of a nation can be averted only by a storm of flowing passion, but only those who are passionate themselves can arouse passion in others.”

TCB- The comment I addressed from Shrek -"""I paid over $15,000 in taxes last year""" I dont see property taxes in there but okay lets assume that Shrek means property taxes. That means Shreks assesed value of his/her property is in the neighbor hood of what 500,000 dollars? 15,000 in property taxes and an increase of what 150 bucks is going to adversely affect his/her life? At what point would the "per pupil" spending be sufficient for you? How far down should we go? Whom should we leave out? Because you do understand that the great equalizer for those wanting to achieve the American dream is the public education system right? Of course the "cost per pupil" isn't driven up by small districts or regular students its special ed and special needs kids/families, and poor families in large urban areas.
At what point do we stop cutting off our nose despite our face? I understand the need to cut , cut, cut, but at what point does cutting everything to the bone lower our standards of living and overall education as a society. I know many that post here don't think education is a valuable commodity. I am here to tell you that is DEAD wrong. You can point to Bill Gates and a few other exceptions to the rules that have succeeded without education, but many of them lie, cheat and steal to get theirs(Bill Gates) , being educated opens MANY more doors than not, take it from someone who has seen it from both sides of the coin.
As to your comment about a percentage of total expenditures being a large amount, OF COURSE They are! Again what is acceptable for you? Unfortunately public education CANNOT be looked at as a balance sheet, the tangible effects from it can not be measured by numbers. It also cannot be run like a business trying to make a profit. Many of the countries that are competeing with us for supremacy are INVESTING in educating their population and INCREASING spending in that sector.
I find it fascinating that with all the astronomical increases in defense spending year after year to fight wars we NEVER should have started , and are to proud to leave still go on, yet we are ready to devalue the very thing that has made us the greatest country on Earth, an education system that offers a chance to ALL of our citizens.

We are in the business of undoing decades of garbage. We've done it in the past, we will do more of it before we are done. We are just getting warmed up. We started in WI, we will finish in Washington in Nov of 2012. Enjoy the show.

Shrek is paying $15,000 in property taxes? Your not living in a small cave.
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Again, we must also explain that our educators already pay for their benefits. This arrangement of less take-home pay for better benefits was negotiated over decades. You cannot unwind decades of negotiations in one swoop.

miltonlib,

Why cant anyone have a differing opinion? Do you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with that persons is saying? Is this how the left defines tolerance?

If money is the answer to what solves the ills of public schools why are parochial schools able to produce kids who are just as smart in a lof cases-a lot more proficient academically than public school kids-at a fraction of the per pupil spend level?

Teachers who do not like the current draconian pay and benefit schedule are free to seek employment in the private sector where the pay is exponentially higher. Granted, you usually will be required to work 12 months per year, youll be subject to a defined contribution plan, and you might actually pay for the entire cost of health insurance-or you can choose to teach at the university level where pay is higher and the workload of actual teaching hours is probably a fraction of what a high school teacher teaches-but there is tenure-and usually you have the summers off-but you also have the opportunity for paid sabaticals...

Fear,

Its well known that 80-90%of the costs are attributed to salary and benefits. I would be interested to see what the direct instructional costs per pupil are-considering the taxpayer cost to educate 1 child is approximately 10K per pupil per class.

And of course Shrek, every penny of the taxes you paid went directly into slary and benefits for teachers, right? Cmon man you really need to wake up, taxes pay for all the services you enjoy that you don't want to do yourself, including picking up your garbage, plowing the streets and keeping your water clean and clear. What percentage of your "contribution" do you suppose went directly to teachers? What a knucklehead! I guess I see now why you hate teachers so much, it seems that you are under the impression that if there were no public schools you would pay zero taxes, a heaven in your mind!

Think,
I paid over $15,000 in taxes last year, I doubt that you want to match my donation. Don't you understand that enough is enough, we cannot continue to tax more and more. We cannot afford it. The teachers are being asked to pay a small percentage of their benefit cost and they are screaming bloody murder. You have no idea what the real world is like.

We need Charter schools here, less beaurocracy and NO UNIONS. Kids are HAPPIER.

Doc--you are so far behind the curve. Educators already pay their own pension and healthcare. They also help pay the pension and healthcare of many other people in our local community.
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You see, every time educators spend money at the grocery store, dentist office, hardware store, colleges, phone companies, and other local businesses they are contributing to the salaries & benefits of the employees at those businesses. Why is it so hard to understand the interconnectedness of the economy?
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Furthermore, teachers are taxpayers as well and therefore contribute to their benefits.
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In addition, it has been thoroughly hashed out in these forums long ago that educators have given up take-home pay gains over many years for good benefits. The teachers I know don't complain about this. They provide an important service to our community and are paid in take-home pay and benefits.
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This exhaustive study shows how teachers make less in take-home pay compared to other professionals of similar educational training and years of experience. The educators I know don't complain about this. They made the trade for good benefits. It is theirs and not yours.
http://www.slge.org/vertical/Sites/%7BA2...

Thinkfuture, I will continue to pay for their pensions and health care, when they agree to help pay mine as well. It's a two way street way of life now, if they want then they have to be willing to give as well.

Come on Mr. Peck, Shrek, vatoloco, TCB--If you agree to donate $5400 (estimated amount requested by the average JEA member to bail out the district) for the rest of your professional career, I'll match your donation and join your band wagon to hound teachers to do the same.
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Now remember...no consideration should be given to your past sacrifices, hardships in your family, the uncertainty of the future, and the fact that we will be part of small minority in community of 60,000 contributing to a community-wide problem.
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Come on, Mr. Peck and friends, do the right thing and stand up for the children!

Befair,
The art of compromise was lost years ago by the teachers union. These changes are the harsh reality of what happens when a group is unwilling to compromise. Had the union been less demanding over the years, these things would not have been necessary. The teachers only have the union leadership to blame.

luvjvl

What specifically is flawed? Hanushek has written 15 books, dozens of peer review articles and is a noted, globally known expert in the area of school finance.

Your annecdotal retort was expected-but your personal observation does not rise to the level of Hanushek.

Governor Walker made the decision to decrease education spending by $800 million, then INCREASE the total budget by over $1 billion. There is no reason for the teachers to pay for Walkers agenda by changing their contract benefits. They are taxpayers, and will pay more taxes like everybody else.

This situation has gotten absolutely disgusting. Has the art of compromise been competely lost here in Janesville?

vatoloco said, "Teachers are offended to shoulder the burden when taxpayers have carried them for years?"
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Teachers have for years been paid a salary and benefits package negotiated between the people you and your neighbors elected, vatoloco, and representatives the teachers pay to represent them. You have nobody but yourself and your neighbors to blame for continuing to elect representatives, year after year, who negotiate contracts you feel are so unfair to taxpayers. But, I suggest the contracts are NOT unfair at all and that your neighbors know that and continue to elect representatives to the school board who have the common sense to compensate teachers fairly. I'm grateful your neighbors have more common sense than you do.

I love public education in WI. I will continue to believe it is the best option to improve our economy and build our democratic society. Here is State Superintendent of Public Schools, Tony Evers, speech: http://dpi.state.wi.us/eis/pdf/dpinr2011... He is correct. We need to stop the rancor and get behind our schools, teachers, and kids.

Vato, this comment is for you. The comment below comes from a conservative blog, Playground Politics. Wear your perverse badgering badge with honor.

"But what is most unfortunate is this boorish, teachers suck mentality that so many conservatives seem to wear as a perverse badge of honor these days. With that kind of mentality, you're embarrassing yourselves, you're embarrassing Wisconsin, and you're making the land of my birth look like a place that should be fenced in lest some of you ever escape.

Teachers have no real power anymore - at least in Wisconsin. But they still have a wealth of knowledge and experience in the classroom - certainly more than the average hack protester who shows up in a dingy t-shirt, holding a sign, and spouts opinions that have far outpaced the handful of oft-distorted "facts" he's able to keep in his head. More often than not, that person has no classroom experience whatsoever."

http://www.classsizematters.org/

Teachers are offended to shoulder the burden when taxpayers have carried them for years?

Please.......some of them have no clue about the reality of work. And, having 3 months off? Please don't give me that,

"Well I have to attend summer workshops and classes" Please...attending cookie cutting 2-3 day workshops with hour lunches never killed anybody.

TCB - I followed your link, sure that the data must be flawed. As an educator for 37 years, I KNOW that class size made a huge difference in my students' achievements. The years my classes were small in size, students would master around 130-150% of the material of their counterparts stuck within the bubble years of large class sizes. The exception would be the advanced classes. Bright kids are able to achieve, for the most part, within large groups. I was certainly curious to read this professional's supposed data.
Interestingly enough, you provided us with no link to the study, but rather just a page about the guy. Does such data really exist, or were you making it up?

TCB,
Cyber-bullied, are you kidding me? I simply asked you to research information on how schools are funded before you complain about taxes being raised.
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The fact is, per pupil distribution from the state is decreased if property value is "low" and taxes are "low".
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What this means is if the school board refuses to raise taxes not only does the local money stay down (despite costs going up...technology, energy for example) but the state, in its great wisdom says because you refused to raise taxes last year, instead of (I will use your number) $9000 per student next year you get $8500 per student.
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The district gets penalized DOUBLE for trying to be responsible to its local citizens.
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I believe the formula is wrong and needs to be fixed but until that happens it is the reality. If the teachers would have given in with no tax increases the one year of no cuts would have followed with cuts the next.
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This community and this school board must realize this.
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Again, I will argue FOREVER that this formula is wrong for several reason (#1 being that it is HUGELY UNFAIR BENEFITTING RICH DISTRICTS WHILE PUNISHING POORER DISTRICTS) but it is the reality.
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The cyber bullying comment was very cowardly. All I asked was that you do some research before commenting. I find it funny that being challenged to have research before commenting on this topic is now considered - by you - cyber bullying. WOW!?!?!?!?

jnvl teacher

Here is one source:

Eric Hanushek has reviewed 100s of class size studies -an economist at Stanford- http://edpro.stanford.edu/hanushek/conte...

NEAP is another source. There are hundreds of sources.

Hanushek generally has found that reducing class size does not improve achievement. I tend to agree-his data is solid.

There is some survey data that demonstrates that teachers prefer smaller classes-less work, less papers to grade, potentially less discipline...but this is to be expected.

American-I challege you to examine free trade and the benefits it has on all consumers. You and I will have an irreconsilable difference in that you believe the level of educational funding in JSD or anywhere else is to low-the data shows differently. I like data-not emotional annecdotal responses. I do agree that there is data arguing that there is a need for even more per pupil spending-DC educrats argue in support of more $$$ all the time; however, I do not find this data persuasive-because the correlation of funding is not a causation of results. As an economist-my theory must be flawed-correct? Is raising taxes has no impact on economic activity-why doesnt the schoold board advocate emlinating a ceiling on the levy? If some increase is good-a big increase would be better-is this your theory? Im not going to be cyber bullied by you-if you have an opinion-express it.

TCB,
"""""The public should pay higher taxes to balance the unions bloated demands?"""""
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I CHALLENGE YOU to research the funding formula for public education in Wisconsin.
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I then CHALLENGE YOU to answer the question: why not raising taxes punishes a school district in the future?
...............................................
TCB,
In the past (approx) 24 hours, have you had the intellectual courage to meet my challenge?

i_luv_jvl: wrong on all three accounts. why do liberals resort to demeaning others when they don't agree with the opinions of others?? Feel free to state your opinion or state your facts with proper citations. Attempting to put someone down does nothing to further your viewpoint.

TCB - "(though studies consistently show that class size is irrelevant to student achievement)"
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Show your source.

Poobah,

Did I write that my spouse teaches in Public school? You certainly like to assume things....

You lack the ability to focus on the big picture-which is the JSD and the teachers union. Not me or my wife.

TCB said, "My family is on my insurance plan."
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We aren't talking about health insurance. We are talking about retirement benefits - which you don't feel taxpayers should pay 100%. Yet your wife is a teacher and the taxpayers pay 100% of her benefits. And you are accepting those taxpayer dollars that you are so opposed to. You aren't helpless, you do have a choice and so does your wife. Neither are willing to make the choice that your conscience would seem to dictate. Just that simple.
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And, by the way, you made reference to my husband. I can't have a husband in Wisconsin. The constitutional amendment passed in 2006 that bans same sex marriage ensured that.

Tolkas -- I would agree.... that to some extent the teachers work for themselves as well as each other and the tax paying citizens. I agree with that arguement... I would also say that what I have found is that the attitude of most teachers is that they feel they ONLY work for themseleves. That parenst are not partners in the education of their children. I believe that this is a result of some parents dumping their kids off at the front door and expecting teachers to take over. I do not. I believe it is a true partnership and I also believe that if teachers took this approach you would see a change in public opinion on taxation. Its all about, what do I get for the $$ and right now, the public system does not provide the value nor do teachers value the parents in many cases. Why would the public then place a higher value on the teachers. They wont under that premise.

Poobah: The answer to your question is simple, too many people just don't care anymore. That is the answer also to many other issues involving our country.

Poobha,

My family is on my insurance plan.

If you believe that rewarding employees solely based on years served rather than contribution or ability-then we have irreconsiliable differences. Your husband may tell you what to do, what to wear, where to work-but my spouse and I do not have that type of relationship.

Teachers are role models. I learned a great deal from many teachers-and I believe the vast majority have the childrens best interest at heart. However, the system is rotting from within. Systemic change needs to occur if American children wish to compete globally.

Janesville has the opportunity to fix what is wrong today-the choice was to kick the can down the street until next year. The school board reached out and attempted to bridge the gap required to adequately address the very real issues affecting the school district. One side said no more concession-fine and its legally within their right to do so. The first priority of the teachers union, like any other trade union, is welfare of the rank and file dues paying members-less members equals less dues = less revenue. Their decision to not negotiate tell me they prefer the status quo. The union chose the lesser of 2 evils. They negotiated in good faith but it will not change the fact that dozens of younger, lower paid teachers will be fired next year to bridge a multimillion dollar deficit. The net impact-increase in class size (though studies consistently show that class size is irrelevant to student achievement), increased fees to the public, increase in taxes to the general public; at risk is the productivity of student. Reducing class size is a perfect example of a policy that the teacher unions like, but that lowers school productivity. The unions like it because each teacher has less work and more teachers have to be hired. Achievement as measured by test scores continues to be flat while costs continue to esculate.

At the end of the day, the teachers union won this battle but has already lost the war.

A strong, achieving public school system is a tremendous asset for the community. When entraprenuer risk capital and businesses chose new markets to compete in-the quality of the school district is a factor that determines location-it is one of many. As a property owner, location and the quality of schools not only impact the choice of where to buy/build-it also impacts the value of my investment. Id rather live in a community where the demand to be there outstrip supply of available houses and schools which helps the community. Does this describe Janesville? Maybe-maybe not.

I would suggest that you see the film "Waiting for superman". The producers give a nice peak of what could be coming to Janesville and other wisconsin school districts in the all to near future. Or take a visit to Detroit.

Also if your wife is a teacher, start paying for your portion of her insurance benefit!

TCB said, "Janesville tax payers should not remain complacent about how the district staffs, assign, and compensate teachers. And too often union contracts preserve archaic employment rules that have nothing to do with serving children-as evidence by the comments of Mr Parr."
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Then why is your wife still working as a teacher under what you claim are such archaic employment rules? And if you're so opposed to taxpayers paying 100% of her pension fund, why don't you voluntarily offer to pay into her pension fund or have her quit her job?

Has anyone ever thought about the fact that education starts at home? Everyone is so quick to bash teachers and point out that they don't produce high enough test scores or enough college bound students, etc. but step into any classroom on any day and you will see why. Teachers can't even begin to teach the 30+ kids they have sitting in front of them until they have made sure all their kids have had breakfast, have warm clothes on for recess, teach them appropriate social behaviors, listen to them cry because they were up all night worried about what mom and dad were fighting about...and that is all before 10 am. Teachers are constantly fighting uphill battles and doing the best they can with the limited resources they have. Its difficult to produce 30 kids bound to Ivy League schools when parents don't do their job and try to blame everyone else for it. And even after these teachers are continually told they are selfish, lazy, and whatever else has been said, they still go to work everyday and do the best they can for each and every child in this community because they love kids.

Poobah,

Teachers spend more on supplies and union dues than on their own retirement and health insurance is this your opinion? One issue is the pseudo victimization expressed by Mr Parr. There is a mentality among those union members who somehow think they’re self employed that they should be insulated from the economic, practices, rules, oversight ,accountability and pressures fo the real world, Mr. Parr I believe is one of these people. Hard economic times call for drastic measures in all facets of life.

How abot the idea that contract negotiations are with teachers unions and other state employees be open to the public? Not Bill Sodermand and 80 teachers behind a closed door. And not public participation, just observation. The opponents of such meetings offer the excuse that secret meetings are necessary for flexibility . Just what would they say in private that they wont say in public? That teachers are "funding education" or some other pathetic line that paints teachers as victims? Please.

BTW poobah, I am married to a teacher. You ask, when was the last time I went in and bought the supplies needed? Today. But what does $9K+ spent per child buy? It doesnt by paper, or pencils 85% is spent on salary and benefits. What about meals-should the tax payer be on the hook for meals as well? Afterall, personal responsibilty went out the window with high expectations a long time ago.

Teachers are tax payers as well and they also indirectly support the local economy by dining out, spending locally, etc. However, the should not be immune to the economic ails that impact a society-should they? I took a huge risk, I went to college and graduate school, work in the private sector-much of this work ethic fostered as a child of the Janesville school district-However, the district is stagnant. Too many schools are failing too many children. Janesville tax payers should not remain complacent about how the district staffs, assign, and compensate teachers. And too often union contracts preserve archaic employment rules that have nothing to do with serving children-as evidence by the comments of Mr Parr.

iceak, see DarkaMundo's post at 2:43 earlier today.

seabeee, I would like to know what you have ` sacrificed, as well. You act like "us" is some deprived group of people that have been stooped low by taxes. Guess what, (this has been stated before numerous times) teachers are taxpayers too!!! I know this must be some suprise to you and others. In fact Ezoner, I guess since teachers are also "the taxpayer," they must be their own bosses!

Colleges are having success teaching virtual classroom style. High school will be next to go virtual.

Seabee: Teachers also pay taxes!

Increased taxes at nauseum. No benefit whatsoever.

Tell me, Seabeee, just exactly what have you sacrificed and what has the impact of that sacrifice been on you and your family? And what has the benefit of that sacrifice been to you and your community?

SO the rest of us continue to sacrifice so the teachers don't have to. Nice. Perhaps if we had a plethora of Rhodes Scholars coming out of our school system their arrogance wouldn't be so hard to swallow.

TCB said, "The fairytale the union "is funding education" per Mr Parr."
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TCB, I am not a teacher but I have many teachers as friends. And every one of them spends hundreds of dollars, if not into the thousands, every year on supplies for their students. So, it's not such a fairy tale that the union (teachers) are funding education. You need to remember, teachers are taxpayers too! They not only pay the same taxes YOU pay, they also are being asked to take cuts in the pay and benefits AND on top of that they are spending hundreds and thousands of dolars every year buying supplies that the taxpayers are too damn cheap to buy! When's the last time you voluntarily went to a classroom near you and bought the supplies the kids needed for their studies? People like you really make me wonder when this country lost its heart, its caring for one another. All you people want to do is tear each other down in this vicious race to the bottom. What's wrong with you?

I luvjvl,

I agree 100% that teachers unions and other state employees shoud be treated the same as police, fire, and other state employees.

The fairytale the union "is funding education" per Mr Parr.

I would agree that the teachers could be expected to contribute into their pension plans IF they hadn't been forced into deferred compensation as the only means of attempting to stay with the standard of living increase through the near 20 years of the QEO. As it is, I would say no. They deserve the same retirement/pension package as other public employees (fire, police, elected officials). Why is it that the teachers are getting the bad rap for the same benefits other public employees receive while they were also the only group affected by the limits of the QEO?

TCB - please describe to me what you perceive as the union's bloated demands. I remember only a few months ago that the unions said they would eagerly make the requested financial demands if the Governor would allow them to continue collectively bargaining for things like classroom size, adequate prep time for meaningful lessons, etc. Is that their bloated demands?
If you mean that you expect them to give in to the financials even though the Governor told them forget it, well then we disagree. I'm proud of them for standing up to principle, and refusing to let themselves be walked all over.

Poobah,

You and I agree its a complex issue. Employee costs are more than the salary a teacher earns. But I will ask again, should a teacher be required to invest in any of his/her pension benefit or should the general public bear this cost of employment?

american,

The per pupil spending in Janesville exceeds 9,000+ per child. WHy cant the district produce better results with 9,000 + per child? What number would be ideal? 15K per child? nearly 20k per child-like washington dc? Look how great these children do...

Remember its about the children.....

TCB said, "94.2% seems very generous to me-but obvioulsy to you its not very generous nor fair...what % is fair?"
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Don't put words in my mouth! I never offered any comment on what I think is fair or generous or any of the other words you attribute to me -- and I'm not going to and I'll tell you why. Labor negotiations aren't as simple as you want to reduce them to and they contain many compensation factors. Pensions are just one part of that. People often give up one area of compensation and agree to take it in another area. For instance, if the employer wishes to defer some of the compensation. So this isn't a simple question of what a fair amount is for pension contributions. You have to look at the overall compensation and benefits package being negotiated. Don't be such a simpleton in your approach to a complex issue.

realitybytes - if you are an engineer and you have a teacher friend that makes more than you do, then you are either:
1) an entry level engineer comparing yourself to a veteran teacher much your senior;
2) someone who touches mechanical equipment and calls himself an engineer; or
3) pitifully skilled.

ezoner - if you have no say in the hiring or firing, they do not work for you.

TCB,
"""""The public should pay higher taxes to balance the unions bloated demands?"""""
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I CHALLENGE YOU to research the funding formula for public education in Wisconsin.
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I then CHALLENGE YOU to answer the question: why not raising taxes punishes a school district in the future?

Poobah-Ive written the union is within their right to reject the offer from the board. However, next year when the time to fire new teachers is what will the union demand then? The public should pay higher taxes to balance the unions bloated demands?

Also, now answer my question-should the general public pay more than 94.2% of a teachers pension? If so what is a fair number? 94.2% seems very generous to me-but obvioulsy to you its not very generous nor fair...what % is fair?

Remember this is about the kids....

TCB, what is it about a legally binding contract that is so difficult for your brain to comprehend? The contract has been struck. YOUR elected representatives, the people YOU voted for to represent you in negotiations have NEGOTIATED the contract. It's done! This isn't the time to be trying to renegotiate it or blaming the teachers for something YOUR school board agreed to! MOVE ON!

Pooba,

Is it too much to expect the public pay 94.2% of a teachers pension? Or should the general public pay more?

worriedcitizen said, "I'm tired of hearing about the pay cuts. Putting money into your own retirement plan is not a pay cut."
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If that's the case, then why don't YOU ask YOUR employer to put 100% of YOUR pay into YOUR own retirement plan. It's not a pay cut!

I'm tired of hearing about the pay cuts. Putting money into your own retirement plan is not a pay cut. It's still your money being put into savings for your retirement and it benefits no one but you.

Miltonlib.. and if your a parent whose child isn't doing as well in school as you think they should? there is a high probability that your kid is an idiot. Apple doesnt fall far from the tree.

I certainly hope you are not a teacher, because with an attitude like that towards a parent. I would NOT want you teaching my child. You should be ashamed of your self for a comment like that.

ezoner, the chance to negotiate was lost months ago when our Governor REFUSED to take the $$$$ in exchange for collective bargaining rights. The GOV., not the teachers REFUSED to negotiate.
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Besides, as my example points out, if a negotiation means a higher interest rate in exchange for no closing costs...why would ANYONE do that.
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The question we should all be asking ourselves REMAINS: Why, when the Gov. WI was offered the financial concessions in exchange for unions being allowed to keep collective bargaining rights, he did not take it?
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There are only a couple of options...
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1. He knew it didn't matter what the unions wanted, he had the votes and did not care.
2. He hates unions.
3. He IS part of a multi-state polical strategy aimed at targetting the largest democratic supporters (UNIONS) in exchange for ???? (Koch brothers???)
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In my opinion, this was NEVER about the budget it was about a political power grab. Everyone admits the unions are a HUGE contributor to democrats. If you weaken the unions by taking away their ability to negotiate and then make membership optional... Politically it is a HUGE victory for republicans.
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Teachers, union members, union leaders are being ripped apart...Does anyone wonder why police and correctional officers were left out of this deal?
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The public needed to support it for the "budget" and included those professionals would have weakened public support.
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In the end, this will not be good for anyone, not me, not my kids and not their teachers. I find it sad that the public is so easily manipulated...scary.

God this district makes me sick. The bashers make me glad I retired.

Ezoner – you said: “NO KENNY -- no increase in taxes…”
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You also said: “But then the closed minded will always find a reason to say no.”
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I think you are on to something.

SarahB1: "Stand your ground teachers!" Yep, stand your ground today and dig your grave in 2013. So short-sighted (IMO), but it is their call. I think we all know that a contract is a contract, but sometimes standing your ground today will cost you dearly in the future. Knowing that they are potentially putting the younger teachers positions at risk in 2013 should make for some interesting dynamics over the next several months, don't you think?

NO KENNY -- no increase in taxes and yes, they do work for me as the tax-payer. The problem is that many teachers believe they are above the parents or replace them and the reality is the parents are in charge of their own children, not the system, not the teacher, not the administration. There are some parents that just drop the kids off at the door. WHat you are not hearing are the ones that do not and actually want something for the money they spend and expect value.

American -- WHen I hear they are the admin they want to re=open the contract -- to me that means a negotiation..... If a negotiation --- there are are terms discussed, some good and some bad. Then the teachers make a choice.... its the hard liners stating a contact is a contract for idelogical reasons based upon collective bargaining that boils my water. When it has both financial and potential educational impacts on the students.

A minority will receive raises of $7000? So what percentage is that? 49%? $7000 raise not a bad deal if the salaries some of you are quoting are correct. That could mean a 10-20+% raise. I have a doctorate. Where do I sign up? By the way others are citing to other union employees. What about the Janesville police who screwed over the taxpayers earlier this year? No comments on that. Their administrative employees pulled off a quick unionization to avoid having to pay their health insurance & pension. I guess that's the Janesville way. No wonder your community is in the dumper.

ezoner,
You are correct, I was attempting to make a simple point that people aren't going to renogiate if the only outcome is negative for them.
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What is being asked of the teachers is to keep everything the same but have the interest rate on their loan raised? The reason the bank wants to raise the rate is because rates have gone up and the "teachers" are the only loan left at the old, lower rate.
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The best part, if the teachers are willing to except the higher interest rate the bank is willing to ....WAVE THE CLOSING COSTS!
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Heck, where do I sign up?

Contract: Noun - A written or spoken agreement, esp. one concerning employment, sales, or tenancy that is intended to be enforceable by law.
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Am I correct in assuming that our teachers sign a different “contract”? Whereas the definition of a contract does not totally apply to them because some holier than thou tax payers have a…how do some of you put it…”god complex” and feel as though now you are their direct supervisors and have the power to publicly scrutinize, ridicule them, and bully them into renegotiating their “contract”. The teachers apparently have signed these magic contracts that are merely words without meaning or relevance?
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When some of you type something, do you read it aloud? Does it make sense to you? Does it sound as stupid as it does when I read it aloud?
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These people are your neighbors, your friends, and your relatives. Many are struggling to stay afloat as it is and you are simply shoving their heads under water as they are gasping for air. Do you know how many teachers are in the district as opposed to tax payers? Why would you have a small percentage of people shoulder this burden brought on by Walker (believe it or not, this is a fact)? Why not soften the blow with a slight increase in taxes. The effect this will have on the local economy will be much less if us tax payers shoulder the burden.

Instead of re-opening the contract with the teachers, why not re-open contracts with the vendors who provide services to the district and ask them to take a 10% cut in payment, but still provide exactly the same service, or perhaps even more? They are being paid with tax dollars just like the teachers...shouldn't they be under the same restrictions?

Neither side is 100% right, and the situation is unfortunate. The teachers have said no, and that leaves us with either more taxes or less Fund 10. There. It's been said. Can we move on now?

"Parr said a pervasive feeling among the teachers was that the board was asking the teachers to shoulder the burden, even though the community had not been asked to do much, because the board has not taxed to the maximum in recent years."

***

Troubling comment. Teachers need to avoid the appearance of fighting with taxpayers. They can't win.

I think a lot of you are forgetting one large point to all of this....the school board (the ones we voted in) actually voted and passed this contract! So yes the school board dug themselves a hole and now they want to renig on the contract because they can't fix the budget? WTH? The school board made themselves look like saviors in the eyes of Janesville residents for many years by not taxing to the max. All the residents sat back and didn't make a peep when the school board was sitting big and fat, now that they cannot fix the budget, they try to shift the blame onto the teachers! Unbelievable! I can't believe some of you have fallen for the trap. Going is good = unions are ok, Walker and the repubs step in and put their divide and conquer plan into effect and you all fall right into line. "Oh yeah the unions are all thugs and teachers are over paid" Give me a break. You actually think that the teachers are at fault here, well Janesville guess where we are going to end up? We are gonna look just like the GM plant if we keep driving the education in Janesville the way it is going! By the way do you all remember that the teachers were willing to pay more into their healthcare/retirement? Oh but they wanted to keep bargaining rights so Walker said no way. So don't say they aren't willing to pay more.

Fear

If you think our education system is so great why are we chasing other countries in rank?

We spend so much money on non-education related items that it robs our students of better futures. Example, sports. We do not need a supply of athletes to fuel our economy in terms of job skills. I know athletes do make local economies flourish.

Also, I have never understood why we pay a gym, health, art, music, consumer ed, foreign language teachers, and tech Ed teachers the same as regular content teachers like math, science, and English teachers. IMO, these teachers should make more.

Finally, parents have a lot to do with academic successes so do not think these teachers are Gods of some kind.

Higher salaries do not translate into better quality. I am quite certain there are teachers with basic professional development that are making more of an impact than mastered degreed teachers.

There is no need to reopen the contract at this time. The changes that need to be made will be made on the NEXT contract. There is no urgent need to make any changes at this time - TIME is on the taxpayer's side.

AMerican Products -- not true -- people negotiate to higher interest rates and lower payments everyday. They change the terms from a shorter to longer term.... the renogoatiation could have included a longer term approach or maybe a shorter term approach to review or include current economic conditions. There are allot of things that could have been negotiated on re-opening of the contract. But then the closed minded will always find a reason to say no.

Classic story of greed and incompetence.

Maybe the Schulte, Parr and the others could follow this example?

http://news.yahoo.com/school-superintend...

Justanobserver
Sep 14, 2011 at 9:46 a.m.
For everyone that said a "contract is a contract" and it shouldn't be renegotiated I hope you never plan on refinancing your mortgage because that's a contract too.
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I certainly wouldn't renegotiate to a higher interest rate. THAT is exactly what the district is asking for.

For everyone that said a "contract is a contract" and it shouldn't be renegotiated I hope you never plan on refinancing your mortgage because that's a contract too.

gbwbill-time for the teachers to step up and pay their fair share of their benefits

The teachers union needs to take more cuts across the board so some laid off teachers can be brought back while making an overall reduction. The quality of education is already taking a hit with larger class sizes & the chain reaction has only begun of how that will impact our city long term.

nugnrose-last time I looked my mortgage was not financed with PUBLIC TAX DOLLARS! Big difference don't you think?

"Parr said a pervasive feeling among the teachers was that the board was asking the teachers to shoulder the burden, even though the community had not been asked to do much, because the board has not taxed to the maximum in recent years."

The JVL School Board and taxpayers need to remember this quote when this contract expires in two years, and make sure they use all of their powers in exacting the teachers benefits. In other words the union is saying "Come on Janesville, pony up so we can keep our bennies. You guys need to do more for us".

It is time for us Janesville taxpayers to step up to the plate and pay our fair share of the bills.

spiderpig
Many employees have given up pay and bennies to help out the company they work for. it has been in the news many times

"The teachers thought taxpayers should have paid more..." - LOL

theflick- So public employees haven't taken a pay cut. Well, here's a news flash for you, there are a lot of private sector employees that haven't taken a pay cut either. Maybe they had a contract, union or otherwise, maybe their employer was doing OK ,maybe their employer felt it was unfair, for whatever reason they didn't. Are the ones that did the many or the few? Have any facts to share? Did you take a pay cut? Should everyone in Wisconsin take a cut in pay because of your personal circumstances? Sounds like you're a tad bit jealous of those that have done better than you.

For all those that think the teachers should reopen their contract: Call your bank or landlord today, tell them you'd like to pay a higher interest rate on your mortgage or higher rent. What's that? You have a CONTRACT and you're not budging? You're a bunch of hypocrites, when it's your contract it's hands off, but it's OK for someone else to do what you refuse to do. You won't give up what you're legally entitled to, why should anyone else?

Remember People--
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE KIDS!!! LOL
That is why they didn't go to school and protest and recieved a fake doctors note. Great teaching of our children. A homeless person can teach better because that is where we are all heading, homeless! Survival needs to be teached now, not how to be do as I say not as I do attitude.
Plus they need to teach a better class on Hitler so people can understand that calling people Nazis or Hitler is not acceptable. What a sad life people are who call people that!

Public employees have not had to take pay cuts like those of us in the private sector who pay
their salaries so I think its time they take their turn or we start replacing them with people willing to work for less. Their are lots
of people who dont have a job who would do just
about anything to have one!

Tulkas: the truth to the teachers you know working 12 months a year is quite simple. They chose to take another job during the 3 months that their "full time" job allowed them to. I'm not saying they arent working hard, but i am saying that the other 3 months of work is their choice (economically stimulated or not; still a choice)

teachers may get cost of living raises in addition to automatic years of service raises and automatic educational raises. many school districts also pay their teachers extra for before or after school clubs, or extra lunch time duties. engineers typically get performance based raises and any automatic pay raises would only be something that an individual might be able to negotiate with a specific company. you are right that there is usually no set ceiling for an engineers wages. However, because many engineers work in the private sector their wages are usally increased when their improved work enables their employer to make more money. Teachers working in the public sector would have a hard time "making" the school more money. as for making apples to apples comparisons why arent you getting on the other poster that was comparing teachers to doctors?

realitybytes, simmer. I never said engineers were better in any way than teachers, I was merely pointing out your ridiculous analogy. Most teachers I know work 12 months a year, not 9. They work a minimum of 9 hours a day, and when additional responsibilities warrant it, 15! They travel nights and weekends and are kept away from their families for a mere $0.21 per hour. YES! Teachers ARE professionals with degrees, and I am always hearing comments about how we are worse/not as important/effective as others. Otherwise I would not be having this conversation with such a wise and compassionate person as yourself. This isn't about ego. I don't see any articles on engineers willing to "share the pain."
P.S. I also know an engineer that makes double what I make, and has less education. Guess we're even.
P.S.S. Teachers can beat up engineers.

I would encourage that every single poster on here please , when you are struggling with your bills, go to the cable company, phone company, etc.... and tell them that you want some concessions on your bill.
Also I would be willing to back this movement if Sodemann would be willing to renegotiate every contract that he has in his business. Something of course that he would never EVER do!
""""Union President Dave Parr said about 80 teachers attended the meeting. He would not reveal the vote, but a majority voted "no.""""
Would anyone else be surprised if there was even ONE vote to open? Parr is trying to play the PR game with Soda. Thank god this is going to be over for awhile, afte the 29th we wont have to see this pathetic group of beggars whining for concessions, they will have to start doing the job that they were elected to do. the time for politiking is over, time for problem solving has come. BTW a very simple solution to your problems exists, its called FUND 10 , its the teachers money essentially anyways.

Unfortunately if you are an engineer and making less than a teacher, you need to find a new employer. Engineers are VERY important in society, but sorry IMO wiothout teachers there would be no engineers, no scientists, no doctors. So YES they are more important than you. They affect the lives of THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of people over a career, DIRECTLY and PERSONALLY.
i would be all for a merit system as long as you could find a way to pay for it. Who evaluates? Because simply by using test scores, is flawed and any good teacher will tell you that. Why was "No child left behind" such a failure. This myth of test scores being used to judge a teacher and thats it is absolutely stupid. Demographics , family life , learning disabilities and so many facors could never be accounted ofr in your test scores formula. Unfortunately for your method, black and white doesn't work and its just NOT that simple. The teachers that SHOULD be paid the most in Urban big city settings could never get test scores as high as some small town in Nothern Wisconsin, get Real!
here is a photo of the salary schedule:
http://gazettextra.com/photos/2009/oct/2...
At what point when you take into affect years of service does the teacher surpass the engineer? What does the engineer make out of college? 33,384 is the low one on this schedule, after 17 yrs and a PHD you cant make any more than 68,195. If you as an engineer were 17 years in with a PHD I am going to guess that your salary would not only be higher, but continue to go higher, is there a wage cieling for you? Please when making comparisons apples to apples, okay?

Booch-I am sure the board president is a nice man, just one stuck on a phony ideology. And let's stop pretending here that your schtik, or anyone elses here, is any more fake or real than mine.

So yep, this moniker is in response to the theater of the absurd that Walker Sodemann,the tea party, and yes, the real Koch Brothers have made of the state and community of Wisconsin.
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Sad that it is.

Booch - get a grip. Sodemann has run for state office several times. He's got tea fever. Janesville School Board is his means to fuel it. If you can't see it, there it is.

Tulkas: first, I never said that teachers with higher levels of education were LESS effective than those with only Bachelor degree. I am merely pointing out that the exta education does NOT automatically make them better or more more efficient teachers. If student test results or graduation rates for a newly re-educated teacher could be shown to improve then a pay raise would be in order. The automatic pay raise system is not warranted.
Lets compare teachers to engineers. Most engineers I know work 12 months a year, not 9. They work at minimum 8 hours a day and when project deadlines require it they work more. PS: there are always project deadlines. Depending on where the project is there will likely be travel that keeps them away from family. Travel may take place nights and weekends and there is no extra pay for this time. Yes Engineers are professionals with degrees, but I rarely hear comments on how they are somehow "better" than other workers because of it. I have heard MANY teacher comments how they deserve more because they are professionals with degrees. What egos!!
PS. I am an Engineer and I happen to have a teacher friend who makes MORE that I do. You may call my attitude sour grapes but I see it as teachers getting paid plenty. Get over yourselves.

howardzinn,
i do -- apparently i missed it in his/her post. if i did - my bad.
sounded more threatening to me (but then you can't always tell the intention of the written word -- especially in forums).
perhaps koch_bros can elaborate in his/her defense.

realitybites- That is an absolutely awful analogy and shows blatant disrespect for educators. Housekeepers to educators? Now I have seen it all.
Unfortunately for the uninformed among you the more educated teacher is the better teacher in almost every case, not all, but probably 99%. Any teacher that attains further education just allows for more development and ideas personally and professionally.
I actually like this analogy better. When you build a home and you contract out your plumbing, would you rather pay half as much for an apprentice to plumb your home and risk mold and complete destruction of your home, or pay the Master plumber twice as much so you KNOW that the job has been done correctly. Same analogy applies to electricians. The more experienced better educated professionals help to keep the proverbial house from burning to the ground and allow you to sleep at night.
A really dumb way to take a shot at a profession, but I have seen some right wingers that think 5th graders should teach 4th graders. So really bad but many that think along the same ideological lines that you do , are MUCH, MUCH worse.

How about getting the teachers and their union to come up with some creative ideas for stretching the budget? I'm sure the school board would welcome the help. Why not give some control and responsibility to the people who have to live with the results of budget cuts and tough times. In the world of private business, it's not unusual in times like these for people to pitch together to help their companies and save their jobs. Give the teachers more opportunity to directly impact and control their own destinies. For a lot of them, the rallying cry might not be "Just say NO!"

realitybytes, your reality does bite. Housekeeping is not a professional career that requires an education. If you want to compare professions, try engineering. I would like to see you back your statement up that teachers with a higher level of education are not as effective as those without. Just like your teachers tried to tell you. If you want your arguement to be effective, back it up with evidence!

Lets say I decide to hire a full time housekeeper at a yearly salary of $25k. This persons job is to keep my house clean. My housekeeper does a wonderful job. After a year this housekeeper tells me that they now have a Doctorate in housekeeping. This person is not cleaning any faster and still only keeps my house clean. My housekeeper isnt more effecient and doesnt have extra time to spare to clean my cars or office. Should I now pay this person $40k per year simply because of the additional education? Why do we pay teachers more simply because they get additional education? Unless they can show this education actually increases their effectiveness the taxpayers are getting the short end of stick.

Iriss, actually I do NOT have a clue that unions are pointless. History tells me otherwise. Go to school. Read some history books; and you don't have to go back all that far, and YOU will learn how necessary ORGANIZED labor is. Unions created the middle class.

And it isn't even about "I don't have as much as you have." Many of the teachers in our district have a masters degree. They have earned their keep. I recently heard that some of the physicians in our community are making well over $300,000 a year. That is almost 6 times what our professional educators with masters degrees (with 6+ college years of education) make. Why isn't the public screaming about that? I will tell you why: everyone who attended school assumes they know exactly what a teacher's job entails. Why doesn't everyone who ever saw a doctor assume that they know exactly what a doctor's job entails? There is a lack of respect in this community for our professional educators.

booch11 - do you understand satire?

Iriss. Do you have any clue how pointless criticizing the union leadership is? Do you talk to the union leadership often? Do you know what their thinking? What does that have to do with Sodeman talking to the teachers?please enlighten us

WAAaaaaaahhhhhhh! What a bunch of whiny babies. "I don't have as much as you so you shouldn't have it either." Teachers are great and they deserve whatever they can get.

RAF, is it the best you have to call posters smarter than you, egg tosser? Your MO seems to be just insult people and deflect the lack of intelligence your supposed arguments contain. And you might notice that this time there is no question that I am not confusing your egg tossing insults with something I might have previously posted.

I guess someone with a doctorate should be capped at $55k. BTW he had to pay for his Ph.d. YOU paid for the $100k administrators to get theirs. I think "glamour" would refer to fashion/modeling, but way to err on the side of drama and hysteria. Keep digging.

poobah........You don't actually believe that drivel you just typed.....do you? It has nothing to do with your "sinister" last place aversion theory. It has everything to do with the fact that I already pay enough in property taxes,(and federal & state income taxes and sales taxes and gasoline taxes and cell phone taxes etc) and one day I would like to retire too. If the teachers wanted to take more from the ultra wealthy, the state representatives, Obama, the Russians, the Martians or any other group, it wouldn't be an issue for me. But these aren't the groups that are funding these full pensions........are they?? I love how those that are trying to save for their own retirement, while already fully funding the teacher pensions though the thousands that they all ready pay in though property taxes and state income taxes are considered "greedy" because they won't add yet another $60 to those thousands already paid in.....It's really a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I agree though--they shouldn't reopen the contract if they don't want to. A deal is a deal, but at the same time they shouldn't complain when the layoffs come next year. The complaining(which everyone knows is coming) will fall on deaf ears......

Koch_Bros:
regarding bill sodeman, you said, "And nice new glamour shot Sodemann. I got plans for you son!"
are you threatening him?
i hope not -- whatever you may think politically, making threats to someone's life should be more than enough to ban your comment.
please explain.

dave parr is one who is getting the $7,000+ raise. not bad. we should pay more in taxes instead.

Great Patriotic Work Sodemann! The vote was pointless, teachers know they will have zero rights in 2 years and shown no mercy (as indicated by what we've done so far.) They would be morons to speed that up.
...However, we needed some more teacher union liberal hate around here.
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Patriots need someone to hate and blame, and this political ploy by Sodemann does the job. Sodemann's career in politics would be hurt if his and the board's role in financial mismanagement was targeted. And Lord knows I don't want them Patriots coming after us swindling rich folk for the larger scale national problems
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And a tip of the tri-cornered hat to the gazette again, you provide a nice tool for our propaganda.
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And nice new glamour shot Sodemann. I got plans for you son!

grams6 said, "everyone I know pays something towards their pension and health insurance. Many of us have taken concessions to help us get through these hard economic times"
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You apparently don't understand the concept of legally binding contracts. YOUR representatives on the school board, the ones YOU elected to represent YOU, negotiated a legally binding contract with the teachers. The time for concessions/negotiations is when this contract expires. I'm curious, are you willing to re-negotiate a higher interest rate on your mortgage to help out the financial companies? How about opening up your cable TV, Internet and phone contracts and re-negotiating a higher rate to help out the utility companies? Get serious.

You're exactly right, partarican1, but there's something quite sinister at play here called last place aversion. Have you ever wondered why low-middle income people would support an agenda that favors only the ultra-wealthy instead of helping themselves and their low-middle income friends and neighbors? It's because they fear if their neighbors and friends "get ahead" a little bit, they themselves will now be in last place -- on the bottom of the economic scale. So they have a vested interest in keeping their low-middle income friends and neighbors as low, actually just a bit lower, than they are on the economic scale. Sad, but true. All of these teacher bashing zealots in a race to the bottom while trying to avoid being the absolute bottom...
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In case you're interested reading about the Last Place Aversion study...
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http://www.economist.com/node/21525851

Why should people who have worked hard to attain the benefits they have be forced to give them up? Shouldn't people be worrying more about how to get a better deal in their own jobs instead of crucifying a few who held out for better conditions?

everyone I know pays something towards their pension and health insurance. Many of us have taken concessions to help us get through these hard economic times. Teachers say the great education of our children must come first. If so, Why are they not willing to make concessions so schools will not be closed and insure the same great education we are used to. SHAME on you members of the Teachers Union.

Property Taxes always go up

Amazing to me that the SDJ has an anti-bullying policy for staff and students, but it apparently does NOT apply to the BOE president. Bill S. will enlist the media and brow beat the SDJ employees that have negotiated agreements whenever the whim strikes him. On more than one occasion he has been told that his behavior is unwelcome, the answer is NO! Bill's answer is to roll it out again with his teaparty cronies, AGAIN, AGAIN and AGAIN. In our schools this behavior is known as BULLYING, when Bill S. does it he and our board call it negotiating. Stand fast to all 3 associations that have negotiated contracts. George Bailey outlasted Potter and you folks can also outlast Janesville's town bully!

Urban while I agree with you that they shouldn't renegotiate their contract, a contract is a contract. They would not be facing a pay cut nor is what they will have in a few years a paycut since the money deducted from their paychecks will be going to their benefits, just like when I was able to go to 401k at work it wasn't a paycut with the deduction or when I got health insurance that wasn't a paycut, just my money going to my benefits. Look at the bright side they won't have to pay union dues or higher property taxes, always a silver lining I know many around here have a difficult time finding them.

NVgraf said, "RAF....How's that public teat of your pension provided by that large union called the United States of America tasting these days?"
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Careful, NVgraf, the Gazette morality police are out in force today. Hope that public teat is completely covered by a nursing top.

Is that the best you can do miss egg tosser?

Good one SDLJJ & NVgrf

freebird - chillax man. You're going to give yourself a thrombosis.

RAF....How's that public teat of your pension provided by that large union called the United States of America tasting these days?

Wow....do you feel safe and secure knowing that if you dial 911 the police/fire or EMS will respond? Do you set your garbage and recycling out each week and expect it to be picked up? What about the pot holes in the city streets? Bet you like those to get fixed in a timely manner as well? People.....a portion of your tax money goes to support schools and yes...pay the teachers, but an even larger portion goes to make sure that you have vital services in your community. Oh yeah....most of them are union workers as well. Maybe you should devalue them, put them down, call them greedy,and be upset with their lavish life styles. Oh no let's just pick on one group of public workers. Unhappy with the way things are....stop blogging, get off your butts and do something!!!!! Time to blog and complain, then you must have plenty of time to volunteer!

The teachers have a contract & need to keep it

I do not hear any one telling those elected to a office to take a cut in their pay

RAF, I wrote they're taking a page right out of the Walker/Koch fascist playbook, which means they are no better than Walker if that story is true. I did not write that it's Walker's fault. However, Walker and the GOP are setting an example for the rest of us to follow. No negotiation, no compromise and moving the goalposts in the middle of the game seem to be very popular and effective nowadays.

This just in... Rep. Knilans gives up $2500 this year to assist his former employer out of bankrupcy and $5000 next year. Next up, Gov. Walker enrolls in ballroom dancing and an independent study to finish his B.A.

RAF, your comment @ 5:14 "Nothing funnier than unions having union troubles." I think this reveals much about you. Most clear thinking people would wish for more harmony among all rather than celebrating anyone's problems. Others having problems (of any sort) doesn't translate to things being better for you and those of your ilk. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Why perpetuate the issues? Does it make you feel better?

How many of you anti-teachers/union would, if you had a contract that would guarantee your job for the next two years, willingly and enthusiastically take a $1000-$1500+ pay cut this year and a $2000-$3000+ pay cut next year? Would you do this knowing that you have no guarantees of employment in two years? Would you do this knowing that such a gesture would have no impact on your future? Would you do that knowing that in two years your salary will be what it was five years ago?

Many like to compare teaching to the private sector, so let's try that. Again, if you had a two-year guaranteed contract but your company was losing money, would you give back several thousand dollars to 'help the company' even though you know your next contract will pale in comparison to the one you have now? How many pro athletes with guaranteed contracts agree to a pay cut to help the team in financial need?

Finally, why should teachers be unable to chase the American dream, to not be able to be financially secure today and in the future? Is it because it's a 'noble profession' and 'they knew what they were getting into'? Teachers pursue post undergrad degrees to become better at what they do and because that is the financial advancement system they are a part of. If you could increase your knowledge base, job skill, marketability, and salary, wouldn't you do it?

What makes their job so devalued that they should be continuously subjected to such comments in such a public forum as a newspaper blog? If you feel that strongly that teachers are not worth what they do, please do what others have suggested: volunteer in a classroom (Perhaps the one where two teachers were abused by an eight year old last week? Maybe you can make the difference in that child's life.) In fact, do it over the course of a few days or weeks. Then, if your opinion still holds true, look that teacher square in the eye and tell them they don't earn every penny.

did anyone really expect the union to give anything back? their actions just reinforce how self-centered they are! about the children? fat chance, it's about how much they can stuff their wallets at the expense of everyone else. layoff what you need to balance the budget!

taxpayertchr, I do suspect you understand that public school teachers do pay taxes...just like you! Shocking, I know. Reading your post, I am led to believe that you didn't get that full-time teaching job you were looking for at the public school because you don't know how to differentiate between the words "no" and "know"..."As a taxpayer, I know longer believe my public school friends who last spring said "we're willing to help." You all are brainwashed. Teachers gave up a lot in collective bargaining years ago to teach your kids. Most notably, a lot of salary. They bargained to make up that difference in benefits. If you people don't understand that and insist on bullying teachers, you really have some problems. And if you're a parent whose child isn't doing as well in school as you think they should? There is a high probability that your kid is an idiot. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Yes freebird, "fire them all!! And hire the ones that are laid off or cannot find work. What selfish people we have here teaching our children. Way to go teachers, pat yourself on your back, you have accomplished nothing but hate to you. Good union!" Thank you freebird for showing everyone that you know nothing about, and don't care at all, about education. Where are you going to get all of those teachers? Those who lost their jobs wouldn't be enough. Might as well hire the kid off the grill at Culver's, right? Brilliant freebird.

I have seen that term used dozens of times on the Gazette site without deletions. Many words have double meanings but that doesn't preclude their common usage in conversations. Are we now to avoid all words and phrases with a double meaning that could be offensive? I was clearly referring to tea party supporters. I understand if a word has a singular meaning and it is offensive to people, but come on. I've posted more than 1,250 times and have never had a comment deleted and I personally have used the so called "offensive" word more than once. And as I said, I've seen it used many times on this site without deletions. Thanks for your take on it, though. You have more courage than the Gazette staff member who made the call and wouldn't explain their reasoning.

I would like an explanation from the Gazette staff as to why my post at 4:53PM was deleted. In my post I mentioned that there is a legally binding contract that was negotiated by representaives of the school board and the unions and asked right wing tea party commenters why they didn't honor legal contracts as they honor the Constitution. For some reason, the Gazette staff found that offensive? Some new person at the controls exerting their newfound authority? Ridiculous.

"fascist playbook"
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LOL. WEAC is accused of breaching contracts and it's the fault of walker....wow.

RAF, that's unfortunate. They're taking a page right out of the Walker/Koch fascist playbook. Walker is destroying our state before our very eyes and infecting nearly every institution, community and people with irrational actions and trickle-down hate.

Laws=order and obedience

No laws/de-regulation=Bush's leadership, chaos, uncertainty, recession that we were ALREADY in BEFORE Obama took over!!

I would pay more REGARDLESS of the JEA opening their contract or not!! The investment in OUR children is PRICELESS!! And yet, talk about class warfare!! The right-wing idiots on the attack AGAIN (what a surprise!) to AVOID paying their fair share!! If my taxes or fees or WHATEVER have to go up, I pay them. I don't like it, but I pay them BECAUSE it's the RIGHT thing to do!! I like roads, schools, garbage collection, snow removed from roads, the ability to use parks, and ALL of the GOVERNMENT/PUBLIC supports that we ALL use!! Even if you do not have children in schools now, you were in school at one time. It's called FREE and APPROPRIATE public education in the law for a REASON!! And I thought laws (like the Constitution and Bill of Rights) that the right-wing ALWAYS brings up were important? So, these LAWS, why are you righties continually COMPLAINING about them? What a bunch of WHINERS you righties are!!

Nothing funnier than unions having union troubles.

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquart...

what's the over/under on patriot posts in this comment section?

Get to work haters. Vouchers vouchers siss boom bahh!

Taxpayertcher, you are as much a patriot and retired teacher, as I am a Koch brother. Beautiful.

taxpayertcher - thanks for your great post.

There is absolutely no coincidence in Obama's new jobs bill that supports education.

Why? He needs whatever he can get from teachers's unions.

Why did you go to work Retired AF? Was it the intrinsic reward for the service you provided? Maybe it was because you believe in the product you were producing or selling. Most people I know go to work to collect a paycheck and pay their bills. Any teacher who says they work strictly for the children must have a rich husband.

As a retired teacher in both the public and private sector, I feel I can speak from experience. What did the union give me? a knock on the classroom door to tell me when to leave the school because we were "working the contract." Of course, my work for the children wasn't done, but that didn't matter to the union. I had to pay dues (as a half-time teacher) and got nothing constructive in return. In the private sector, even though my benefits and pay were less, I had the wonderful opportunity to actually teach children what they needed to learn. As a taxpayer, I know longer believe my public school friends who last spring said "we're willing to help." Those teachers need to stand up and vote concessions so the children and taxpayers benefit. Get in the real world please. I'm sick of hearing about entitlements. Learn to live like the rest of the people who pay your salaries.

Any thought if taxpayers go to vote and agree on tax raise and if approved, teachers then pay a part of retirement and insurance. More like rub my back, I'll rub your back???? Yet Im sure a vote to the community could not be done in a timely manner... Not sure but just a thought.

Any thought if taxpayers go to vote and agree on tax raise and if approved, teachers then pay a part of retirement and insurance. More like rub my back, I'll rub your back???? Yet Im sure a vote to the community could not be done in a timely manner... Not sure but just a thought.

It's all about the students...LOL.

Holy incomprehensible drivel Batman! freebird007 clearly started early tonight.

The crux of the matter is that taxpayers are seen as an bottomless money pit which the unions can get anything from. Lay off as many teachers as it takes to balance the budget. Did the school board have a gun to its head when it agreed to a new contract before the new bill was settled?

fire them all!! And hire the ones that are laid off or cannot find work. What selfish people we have here teaching our children. Way to go teachers, pat yourself on your back, you have accomplished nothing but hate to you. Good union! and to think they do not live in the area like you do. Keep voting them in and paying dues! you'll be outa work like the union did to GM.