Ezoner: Yes, there are people who have to have the best of everything, but there are retired people out there that can't even make ends meet anymore and have to go back to work. Not everyone spends money foolishly. It's still very hard to make ends meet. The cost of living keeps going up while our wages are stagnant or nil.

dkush -- I disagree.... the difference is that we all feel we have the right to have everything. That large TV, the bigger - better car. More - more - more. As opposed to being focused upon whats important. And after we have had a taste of more -- then we feel entitled to it, and to maintauin it -- both must work. We need to get back to whats really important. If you choose to work, then you should pay for the care of your family, not the tv screen and best cell coverage.

Ezoner: I wonder that too. The problem is that everyone in the household needs to work now just to break even. So no one is home to take care of kids or older people. If you notice everything costs a lot more. Insurances, food, utilities, gas, taxes, etc.
RetiredAirForce: no more money for who? Us, yes, I know that. Big money on the other hand, is not hurting one bit.

The left will never see the difference from a long term depedency and short term support. What ever happened to the family structure, when people took care of their elders when they could no longer care for themselves. There is nothing wrong with that model.... I have done that... But people that support the welfare system also want to leave and ignore the elderly.... just let someone else take care of them and pay for them....

Granted -- there are unique instances where people need longer term support -- but you cannot base the rule on the exception.

No profits, no jobs, no schools.

What happened to this fight being about all state employees? Why is it now only about the teachers? Are they the only important state employees?

And if we teach retired people to eat cat food, just think of all the money we could save.

RAF:
ANS:
BAILOUT....PRINT MORE $$$$$.
It's the 21st century answer to ALL our problems! ;-)

dkush21 what happens when there is no money or very little money to be had?

"Do you believe we can provide a quality education in a capitalistic society without the teachers being part of a middle-class profession?"
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Yes. Education should be focused on what the students need, not what the teachers want. The local administrations can decide HR choices. Hint: most private education programs are very successful...they are very student focused.

Superdave: You are absolutely right. But what happens when there is no fish or very little fish to be had?

@amer: I will take your "dare". With the one caveat that I will not use your absolute term of "only". I would say it this way: The *primary* outcome of welfare is a dependency mentality. YES - it has helped some deserving folks in times of sorry need. It has given children the energy to get through the school day. It has helped older folks survive the bitter winters of the midwest.
But human nature is what it is. Give a woman a fish, she has a meal for a day. Teach a woman to fish, she has a meal for a lifetime. Give a woman a *free* welfare check, she will be there next month waiting for the next check. Ergo the welfare mentality.

vat,
Do you really believe the only outcome of the welfare program is a, "negative influence (dependency mentality)"?
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I dare you to tell that to the 10's of millions of Americans that have used that program to get through a rough time. The 10's of millions who were able to keep their head above water and provide for their children during bad times.
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It is sad how those so willing to watch quietly as our government spends BILLIONS of dollars to occupy and re-build other countries complain so loudly about our (SAME) governments efforts to re-build/help their fellow Americans.

RAF,
Nice job ducking!
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Do you believe we can provide a quality education in a capitalistic society without the teachers being part of a middle-class profession?
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Do you see the connection?

IMO, teachers are every bit as important as police, firemen, doctors & nurses. Every person who works in the afore mentioned professions has the lives of others in their hands. All of these professions should be respected and considered with gratitude by all of us.

How much does it cost to go to college to become a teacher? If teachers should not be making that much money, maybe the government should be paying the education for people to become teachers. Then I can see telling a teacher how much they should be making.

"As the cost of living increases so MUST the per pupil rate. Otherwise, the once pround middle-class teaching profession becomes a footnote in history."
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Must? Is the point of education the students or building a profession?

Pay is an issue that should be decided at each district level. I have no issue with how much or how little anyone is paid since individual ability and talent mixed with desire to preform are different in all people. Districts, like any other employer, will decide what the positions they want filled are worth; does giving a person $90,000 vs $60,000 guarantee better service and a better product?

RAF,
"""Chris how much money is enough, for education? Many public schools operate in the range from $8,000-$12,000 per year per pupil. How much should that number be to make you happy?"""
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Let's change that a bit. Many teachers make between $35k and $50k per year plus, let's say $15k in benefits.
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What number is enough for you? How low to teacher wages need to drop for YOU to be happy? Is $50k plus $15k in benefits too much for a high-quality teacher with a Master's degree and let's say 10-15 years experience?
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As the cost of living increases so MUST the per pupil rate. Otherwise, the once pround middle-class teaching profession becomes a footnote in history.
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BTW, I believe we could solve this tomorrow without raising taxes...pay each district EQUALLY per pupil instead of basing it on local property values.

jv93--if you read from different sources then maybe you would know that the average German worker makes higher wages than the US worker yet their manufacturing industry is thriving.

Now matter what your heart feels these are real numbers. http://fulltextreports.com/2011/05/25/ce...

So what amount do you think should be spent? How much would be enough?

obviously some tax payers have it easiar than others and it should stay that way no matter how many other people suffer. IYO

I thought you wanted to talk about education funding, that comes from all taxpayers; CEO pay has little to do with it.

BTW retired airforce it's nice to throw out numbers out there to make your statements seem more factual but when you don't use your heart it may shrivel up and stop working!

I am speaking in terms of the current state of affairs. Both parties and all americans are to blame for the current state of affairs. Funny how teachers are taking a pay cut while ceo's and politicians make enough to buy their own islands. No actually it's not funny and it's not the solution and how can anyone possibly defend that it is. I am not a member of either political party nor would I want to be. Logically it makes sense to have the people who made the most off of america's financial meltdown to pitch in more towards it's recovery.

Chris how much money is enough, for education? Many public schools operate in the range from $8,000-$12,000 per year per pupil. How much should that number be to make you happy? While you are at it decide how much per pupil should be spent for the building, teachers, arts, sports, and administration. Every public school is run from a local level so every dollar is spent by your local board based on what they want. Partial money, a large part, comes for the state. Are you aware the last budget under full dem control, without help of the evil koch brothers, also lowered funding to school districts? I am all for a discussion on funding, but first try to do it based on facts and not what you feel or other propaganda.

skip right over public education let's keep talking about fair wage.It's funny that it's always about the bottom dollar. Why wouldn't we want to put more money into education and new technology for the future of our country and for our kids. I have a new born daughter and I hate to think of what the conditions of public schools will be like in 6 years if this kind of BS keeps up. It's appauling to see that fair market value and a fair wage are more imortant to some people than raising the bar for our children.

I honestly think some of these people are paid to fill comment sections with this drivel.... Please explain how cutting funding to public schools is going to make Wisconsin better? How about they introduce a flat tax for everyone including businesses for being in america with a 1%assett tax every year. Invest it all into technology education and infrastructure ( like china is doing ) we would once again be the richest country in the world with the smartest workforce and the best technology. If the Tea party has it's way we'll have a civil war and destroy ourselves!

If you want better wages, you need to be a better consumer. Buy American and buy local. Avoid products that are made in foreign countries. You will have to pay more for these products, but that is a sacrifice you should be willing to make.

I get a kick out of hearing you need work place rights and a safe work environment! Really, have any of you ever heard of OSHA? There are more regulations, rules, laws on the work place in today's world that this argument that you need rights in the work place is just laughable! If for some reason you don't have to follow OSHA than you have no idea what you are missing! If you want rules, by God, OSHA has them for you! With OSHA involved you almost can't fart with out a ten day notice to proceed!

Platitudes. Nothing more and Mr Neuenfelt knows this. What no unicorn in every back yard? Why not?

What we all seem to forget is that people go into business to make a profit, period. They do not go into business to give you a job. If a profit cannot be made while paying a fair wage by any business or corp it will cease to exist and will go elsewhere to make money. Unreasonable union demands have been the demise of many companies. A corp ceo or business owner has his money and a** on the line. He should reap the rewards. Your jobs exist because of him. If he does not pay you what you want you are free to go elsewhere to work.

Priced out is well...priced out of the market. Globalization does not care what it costs to live in Janesville, Chicago, or Flint. If your labor force is more expensive than Bangladesh, guess where the work will be sent? If that happens you had best have some other skills to sell to the marketplace or your refrigerator will be very empty.

can we still call a spade a spade.

@Light: Okay, so I looked up your vile term on Wikipedia, and it said this: "The term "teabagger" emerged after a protester displayed a placard using the words "tea bag" as a verb.[287][288] The label has prompted additional puns by commentators, the protesters themselves, and comedians based on the sexual meaning of the term. It is routinely used as a derogatory term to refer to conservative protestors."
There you go. It's a reprehensible, vile, patently offensive term. And if you need to constantly label people rather than giving them the respect they deserve, that shows that your arguments are weak or non-existent.

Class warfare is already here according to Warren Buffet. I'am sure the tea party will make sure your well earned retirement benefits stay unchanged.

Class warfare and populism is being played on both sides and both sides are being played. This debate is between mostly the middle class on both sides. Neither vocal side is rich nor are they poor. Middle class workers fighting over who has the better deal. Middle class neighbors arguing over whose family and friends make too much or too little. What ever happened to "a rising tide lifts all boats?" What is good for my neighbor is good for me. I find pleasure in my brother receiving a raise and my friend being able to send his son to school debt free.

Lightkeeper if you think wages should be based on a percentage of profit what will your new complaint be when there is no profit? The dribble over living wage is interesting since its a meaningless subjective level. A wage is the same today as its always been, the payment for service/labor based on the value for the job being done. Instead of facing reality continue with the class warfare it will make you feel better.

Well teabaggers thanks for answering my question about a fair wage, "WE have no skills to start our own business", but sign a no compete clause, is this the santa your talking about? Anything you develop while working for us we own 100% of the rights to? You deserve nothing because I am the risk taker. Cut taxes for the wealthy and let a fair wages trickel down, except we don't know "How many angels fit on the head of a pin." Owing an apology for using the term " Teabaggers " look it up in wikipedia, their is a definition, as for a fair wage their is none!

It seems that what Mr. Neuenfeldt is saying is that all we need do here in Wisconsin is set up a worker's paradise. All we have to do is mandate high wages, great working conditions (with lots of paid time off, no doubt), and incentives to achieve nearly universal membership in labor unions for all. If we do all that, just watch the employers come streaming in. I suppose he thinks that the employers that left Wisconsin over the last 50 years will realize how wonderful business will be here in our new union utopia. Yeah, sure.

So why wouldn't employers want to set up shop in our proletarian Shangi-La? One thing we know about unions is that the more powerful they are, the more they are inclined to exercise that power. When unions are strong, strikes are frequent. Strikes are a curse to business. Unions know this, that's why they strike. How many industries have been chased from Wisconsin due to militant unions striking as often as they could? Union leaders like the author would no doubt say none, but the truth is many have left due to crippling job actions against them. You can't fulfill contracts, you can't satisfy customers if you can't deliver product. And you can't stay in business without them. Negotiating with a militant union is like being made an offer you can't refuse. The only option is to relocate, and many businesses have done just that. They won't come back If Mr. Neuenfeld has his way. The opposite will happen. More will leave.

You know, I see alot of one-sided statements on these blogs about how we should be happy to even have a job and we are replaceable, etc. etc. That is true, but what everyone forgets is that it works both ways. That same business, corporation, ceo, etc. would not have jack if it weren't for the employees who worked their behinds off to give them the wealth they have today.

It is easy, with the benefit of hindsight, to see the progress unions helped to usher in. What is more difficult, is to see the change, stability, and progress yet to be needed and enacted. Unions have, since the very beginning, been subject to public and political backlash - the persistence and fortitude of these organizations is their strength.
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The American workforce is expensive, but it is also highly adaptable, educated, and productive. If the proper trade policies and tax priorities were in line, you'd see more production staying here. Further, we are transitioning into a post-industrial society. Our sustained growth is dependent on technological innovation and financial services. To advocate for bringing menial labor back to the US (which has essentially been gone for 100 years) is to advocate for regression of our standard of living and economic progression.

I find this an appropriate time to comment on this article, Labor Day on Monday.
Although I am now retired, I have been in my work careers the member of 2 unions, the first being the IBEW. During that time period, I was well compensated for my labor, but I worked my ever-lovin *** off.
If you want to join a union, go ahead and do so, it's up the union if you will work or not.
I did this later on in my life, and didn't make a dime, but that particular union was certainly fun to be a member of (pardon my grammar).
Some of the other members were quite impressive in their work habits, and I was never quite up to their level of talent.
On this labor day, give thanks to union members, and anybody else who contributes to the betterment of our society who just "goes to work" every day.

Sorry, Spotted Cow is a really good beer tonight.

I love questions that have NO rational answer. What is a fair wage?

Here are some others I like:

How many angels fit on the head of a pin?
How big is a big fish?
Can you fix the bearings on my eternal motion machine?
When talking to a ghost, do they speak English?
Which is worse: walking under a ladder or letting a black cat cross my path?
Does Santa prefer chocolate chip cookies or peanut butter?
Is the tooth fairy a girl or boy?

We the members of organized labor demand that some of you go out and start companies to employ us. We have no track record of doing this on our own but it is your obligation to do it for us so that we have a place to work. We then demand the right to tell you what you should be able to make as the risk takers who have actually invested in the business as well as what you must pay us. We hate you and your success. However, we have no skills that would allow us to open our own business, meet payroll, mange finance, etc. so you must continue to provide for us. In return, we reserve the right to leave for new employment whenever we choose, call in sick when we have used up all of our vacation and hunting season is starting, decline to act in the best interest of the company if it doesn't meet our negotatited job description and receive regular wage increases based on time on the job even if out productivity is not growing (or, let's be honest here, decreasing).

@Lightkeeper: I would like to see you apologize for using a vile term to refer to the Tea Party. If you can't keep it civil perhaps you should keep it to yourself.

Can that market be manipulated by the wealthy by suppressing unions, enacting laws written behind closed doors, just do a little research on alec. Ceos pay is determined by a compensation committee, guess who appoints that committee, the CEO. Repeal the Taft hartley act and the Wagner act. Let labor and corporate america set the market price for labor.

Lightkeeper, I can answer your question easily. "A fair wage" is this and only this. Are you ready? It's big...It's profound...A FAIR WAGE IS WHATEVER THE MARKET WILL YIELD. End of story.

Just once I would like to see a tea bagger say what is a fair wage for labor, is it some where between 45-50 percent of the profit. Not counting the fat cat bloated salaries of the CEO,CFO,EXVPS.

SuperDave, what is the purpose of Chambers of Commerce? Why do they need a collective voice in Congress and state houses? Can't they stand on their own as individual businesses like individual employees are expected to? Corporations and many businesses are not always a positive influence on the economy. They oftentimes can profit by cutting employees loose and destroying jobs.

@janesvillean: You seem to think that business has all the power, and that without unions, workers have none. Incorrect sir. In a free market, workers and employers are free to negotiate a win/win deal with each other. Unions are not always a positive force in the market. They can actually destroy jobs, and take away personal choice from workers.

Oh...MotherJones? You honestly expect me to read that lefty rag crap and not vomit?

Something else has been going on for thirty years as well Janesvillean. Its called globalization. When your "middle class" is the most expensive labor on the globe, guess what, they are going to lose in market competition. "The war" you quote does not exist. It is simply the market deselecting a labor force that has priced itself out of the global market. I'm surprised you were not aware of that. I expected better.

jv93, the war has been going on for thirty years, and the middle class (and below) is losing. Or is it just coincidence that since the Reagan Revolution, the top 1% have only become wealthier and more powerful, while the bottom 80% have lost more and more ground? Are the wealthy suddenly, starting in 1981, smarter and better at making money than the rest of us? Or is there something else at work?
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/...
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SuperDave, why is that businesses are lauded for making hard-nosed decisions, but unions are criticized for acting in the same way? Don't workers have the right to set their prices the way businesses do? Or is this a one-way, unequal "right"? Apparently, you don't think that workers acting the way businesses do, every day, is acceptable. A meek, compliant workforce ready to take whatever businesses hand out is the way you seem to want it. Well, this America -- with a wealthy upper crust getting richer, and everyone else arguing with each other over the crumbs -- is the end result of that kind of thinking.
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At the present rate of progress, many so-called "Third World" nations will have less income inequality than the supposedly egalitarian United States.

While I recognize the historic role of unions in helping the working class make gains, we must also recognize the excesses that unions have demanded, which have caused so many jobs to be automated and outsourced. And of course unions should not exist ar all in the public sector - the very idea of government workers fighting against the rest of us sickens me.

lets think about what type of jobs we need. We need substainable manufaturing jobs. now lets think where have the manufacturing jobs gone? why have many manufacturing job left the country? could it be that the Unions have pushed them out with their demands for high wages and unsubstainable benifits? Yes you may feel that unions have there place, I agree, but demanding , and demanding more ,and more, untill companies feel the need to leave the country, is a part of the reason we are in the positition we are now in. We need to bring back manufacturing jobs, We need make if profitable for a company to produce their goods here, and think buy American when you are shopping for goods.

The go to argument of the left: class warfare.

"To recover from economic distress, our state needs not only more jobs but good jobs with living wages, workplace rights and the meaningful freedom to organize into labor unions."
Didn't we have those jobs here at one time (GM and others now gone)? Are we to assume now that these jobs must be in the public sector?
The same corporations you're trashing are the ones that supply the jobs. Remember even the union is laying off.

But apparently only the people on the Left know how to do this as anybody else who doesn't follow or agree with them are idiots, dopes and scabs, among the nicer words they have used, and shouldn't have the right to be in their presence. They are shocked that people actually stand up to them and dare to question what they say.

Phil do you want more tissues?

Well said, SIR!
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After seeing what happened in New Berlin this week it is obvious that any employee needs to re-think their opinion about what Gov. Walker has done.