Signs of the times: Rock County tackles concealed carry complications
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Signs posted by Rock County officials prohibit guns or other weapons from most of the buildings at the Rock County 4H Fairgrounds. One building, which holds gun shows, prohibits concealed weapons.
JANESVILLE — Who knew it would be so complicated?
Wisconsin's concealed carry law allows local units of government to decide if concealed weapons will be allowed in the buildings under their care.
But if towns, cities or counties have rules more restrictive than the state's, they have to make sure they're legally covered. In most cases, the covering is plastic or aluminum signs reading, "No firearms or weapons in building."
Nick Osborne, Rock County assistant to the administrator, worked with the county's legal team to draft an ordinance regulating concealed weapons on county property.
"One of the first steps we took was to contact the department heads and ask them what they wanted," Osborne said.
They received a unanimous reply: no weapons in buildings.
To make that legal, state law requires signs be posted at all entry doors.
The county spent $3,420 to buy 733 signs.
At the Rock County 4-H Fairgrounds, the county has posted signs reading, "No firearms or weapons in building," at each entry door for every building on the grounds, including the garage doors for vendor spaces under the grandstand. The signs ban all weapons—concealed or not.
But concealed weapons cannot be banned on the fairgrounds as a whole unless a request is made by a group that intends to use the grounds and restrict entry. During the Rock County 4-H Fair, for example, the Rock County Fair Board could request that concealed weapons be banned during the fair.
But a group using one building and not restricting entry to the grounds cannot request that concealed carry be banned everywhere on the grounds during its event.
Different signs were made for the Craig Center on the fairgrounds, which often is used for gun shows. Those signs read: "No concealed weapons in building."
Parks are different. Because they are not enclosed by a fence and because entry is not restricted, concealed carry cannot be banned in public parks.
Concealed carry can be banned from park buildings, however, including bathrooms.
Throughout the process, Osborne said he and the county's legal counsel were trying to balance their legal obligations with a rational response.
"We didn't want to get ridiculous with this," Osborne said.
They also were working under a deadline; they wanted to have everything in place by the time the law went into effect Nov. 1.
"We probably were a little bit more conservative than we needed to be," Osborne said.
In other words, they operated under the "better safe than sorry/sued" rule, making sure all their doors were covered.
The cost of making it clear
If a local unit of government wants to restrict concealed weapons in its buildings beyond the provision of state statutes, it must post signs at every entry door.
State statutes ban concealed weapons in jails, courthouses, police departments, secured mental health units or secured mental health institutions and courthouses. Those buildings do not have to be signed, but many jurisdictions are putting up signs in those buildings, as well.
Rock County General Services Manager Rob Leu said the county bought:
-- 628 5-by-7 inch signs reading, "No firearms or weapons in building." Each sign has a pictogram with a gun and a knife in a circle with a slash through the middle. Each sign cost $5.19 for a total of $3,259.
-- 100 clear, stick-on signs with the same wording and pictograms. Each sticker cost $1.35 for a total cost of $135.
-- Five 5-by-7 signs reading, "No concealed weapons in building" for $5.19 each. Total cost was $25.95. These signs will be placed on the entry doors to the Craig Center on the Rock County 4-H Fairgrounds because the Craig Center sometimes hosts guns shows.
Nov 14, 2011 at 9:32 p.m.
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As far as CC being illegal before, do you really want to try and prove that concealed carry has been illegal or banned since the origination of the state, much less the US Constitution?
Come one, lets see how concealed carry has never been legal, but something about hades freezing over before that occurrs comes to mind!
What you will see is that concealed carry was banned over a 5 decade travesty of rights infringement. A travesty that has thankfully been turned around dramatically in the last 17 years.
Nov 14, 2011 at 9:26 p.m.
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Lets compare someone supposedly safe, say a doctor, to law abiding concealed carry licensee's and we wont use one single NRA data source.
ATF Max 8 million CPL's US, approximately 186 million age 21 or older or 4.3% of the people licensed for CPL.
Possible deaths from CPL holders in 3 year time span from Violence Policy Center report last year, 137 or 45 per year equals .00000562 per concealed license holder. You can also review Florida's data on CCW at http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/c... it says the same thing.
JAMA http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/ful... 700,000 doctors in US kill 44,000 to 98,000 by medical malpractice every year or .14 per physician.
Physician is .065 or .14 /.00000562 = 12,000 to 25,000 times more likely to harm you than a CPL holder.
So where is the risk from concealed carry holders and why aren't you antis crying to ban doctors?
After all, there have been what 48 previous states to pull data from? Thought the VPC and other anti gun zealots would be able to EXAGERATE just a little more eh? You antis are really slipping, cant even tell a credible lie anymore!
Nov 14, 2011 at 9:22 p.m.
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Wow, more than one person, scared of the proverbial boogeyman. You know, the mythical monster under the bed, the invisible one that children believe in. Yet here we have supposed adults, afraid of what they cant see, cant articulate, and cant prove.
That the law abiding gun owner carrying concealed is such a danger.
Nov 14, 2011 at 1:07 p.m.
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CC was always illegal on government property and businesses before. If you put up a sign stating so, nothing has changed. Proartist is spot on. But I find it very troubling that lawmakers are encouraging the weaponization of a civil society.
Nov 14, 2011 at 12:07 p.m.
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Anyone who has spent time in California realizes that if concealed carry has not led to widespread problems there, we have nothing to worry about here :)
Nov 14, 2011 at noon
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Yea Robot, I caught my error after I posted.
BTW I enjoy your posts, especially when they go over the heads of our left leaning friends.
Nov 14, 2011 at 11:53 a.m.
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3rd eye, that would be the smart and logical thing to do. Which is why the current administration didn't do it. If our legislators were actually doing their job, they would have taken these things into consideration (including the training issue and exactly how much needed and what constitutes appropriate "training") and spent some time figuring it all out so that there was a well thought out law that made sense.
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Instead what we got was a boiler plate bill written by ALEC that got rammed through the legislature and signed by scooter ASAP in order to further the republican agenda before he could be recalled.
Nov 14, 2011 at 10:51 a.m.
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"We are the 48th state to enact concealed carry."
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Nope. 49th. Only IL does not have CCW.
Nov 14, 2011 at 10:31 a.m.
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proartist, et. al., Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort and other government will protect you and criminals groups have all ways released and reported unreliable information. There was an article on the Gazette's website a week or two ago about the liability issue. The person who was interviewed is an attorney and I think he was talked to businesses about it too.
Nov 14, 2011 at 9:12 a.m.
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Third eye. Right on, The gazette doesnt have any reporters anymore than can get the facts before printing an article
Nov 14, 2011 at 8:50 a.m.
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Through all this hand wringing about how to approach this new concealed carry law, on all levels, I have not seen any proposals to do the logical thing.
We are the 48th state to enact concealed carry. Some states have had the law for a long time and 35 states have a law similar to Wisconsin's.
Wouldn't the logical thing be to examine how those other states handled various situations. Have there been court cases? What was the outcome? Have any precidences been set?
Why are we not benefiting from lessons already learned in the other states?
Nov 14, 2011 at 8:43 a.m.
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They try to make it complicated to scare people, the gazette is the biggest contributor to that also.
Nov 14, 2011 at 8:33 a.m.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/us/fel...
Nov 14, 2011 at 8:09 a.m.
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Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort - Madison (http://www.waveedfund.org) has info on the legal liability given they've been fighting the MYTH of liability protection lost if a public place posts. The built-in incentive in the new law for allowing concealed carry has caused deliberate confusion. In reality, any place that posts has no more legal liability than they did prior to Nov. 1. Check the FACTS and don't believe the fear-mongers and NRA. Locally, some places that post for your health, safety and general community welfare such as the Janesville Mall, O'Riley and Conways, Jo-ann's Fabrics, and many more should be thanked. Those who are not posted and still considering should be directed toward RELIABLE sources of legal advise.
Nov 14, 2011 at 7:01 a.m.
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Madcat--destroy?? So unhappy that you will get to conceal carry.
Nov 14, 2011 at 6:49 a.m.
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I'd like to remind all the places that put these signs up. That if some criminal some wacko who does not read signs or follow the rules walks in and shoots the place up. The place with the sing can be taken to the cleaners by the families of the victims. And I for one would be willing to destroy any place of buisness that takes away my rights in favor of being PC and nothing else.
Nov 14, 2011 at 5:50 a.m.
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Just from a money standpoint, why didn't the county get with other paranoid counties and have a group buy of signs/stickers? They would have got a far better per unit price.
The line that gets the biggest laugh is the "better safe than sorry/sued" comment. The county is, because of these signs, open to liability lawsuits if someone is injured/killed. The lawyers consulted must have a side line representing liability lawsuits- lawyers will always find a way to cash in.
Nov 14, 2011 at 5:41 a.m.
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Sarah, you are perfectly entitled to put up a 'no guns allowed' sign at your house as long as you buy your own. Maybe someone will get you one for Christmas.
Nov 14, 2011 at 1:05 a.m.
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Storm chaser you are correct. Just look in the past articles on here about that. It is covered in one of them. As I brought it to the attention of my employer.
Nov 13, 2011 at 8:35 p.m.
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"One of the first steps we took was to contact the department heads and ask them what they wanted," Osborne said.
Wrong, Nick Osborne! Why didn't you first ask the citizens who actually own the buildings what THEY wanted? How do we get you replaced?
The right answer is to have no restrictions in addition to the State law. It's not "complicated" and it costs nothing. Government employees and elected officials who feel differently should start looking for new jobs now.
Nov 13, 2011 at 8:30 p.m.
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I was told that by posting signs that CC isn't allowed, you lose your liability protection. Can anyone clarify for us please?
Nov 13, 2011 at 8:15 p.m.
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bunbun and autoworker2 - great points ! Unless these are "magic" signs that DO NOT allow any bad guys with guns in.
Nov 13, 2011 at 8:13 p.m.
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Emac, carry where it is illegal to do so makes you a criminal.
Nov 13, 2011 at 8:07 p.m.
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BunBun--Excellent post! Also, what about our "powers that be" using the excuse of a law permitting concealed guns & stun guns, to outlaw 2" Swiss Army Knives in certain places?
Nov 13, 2011 at 7:46 p.m.
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So if I were in one of those "no firearms allowed" areas and somebody shoots me as I am unarmed, wouldn't I be able to sue as a result of them taking away my ability to defend myself? (If I survived the shooting, that is.) It seems like my right to defend myself would have been compromised, knowingly, putting my health at risk.
Nov 13, 2011 at 7:40 p.m.
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Just a question? If your weapon is concealed how will these places know you have a weapon or not? Is the county going to be buying metal detectors and requiring "pat downs" before we enter the fairgrounds?
Nov 13, 2011 at 7:22 p.m.
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Vegas1: After someone has had too many drinks bad decisions can be made without a gun also, you can't keep making up excuses for the right to carry a gun. So far as i can tell the other 48 states haven't fallen to honest gun carrying people, it's the bad guys you need to be careful of.
Nov 13, 2011 at 6:54 p.m.
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With armed criminals prowling the Rock County Fairgrounds creating mayhem and looking to murder innocent unarmed citizens next year I think I'll just stay home.
Nov 13, 2011 at 6:29 p.m.
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Vegas: it's already illegal for a person who is concealed carrying with a permit to consume alcohol while carrying. It is utterly rediculous to think that a law abiding concealed carrier is going to suddenly go off the deep end and massacre people over a simple traffic infringement or other simple altercation. People hell bent on killing aren't going to care about your stupid little sign, nor the fact that it's illegal to carry in this building or that. In fact if you research mass killings they are pretty much all done in "target rich environments" or those places which are posted and law abiding folks won't be carrying. This is nothing but a "comfort move". If anything this simply restricts the poeple who do care about the laws and their rights.
Nov 13, 2011 at 5:53 p.m.
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@hdonlybob: Of course people can go somewhere with a gun not intending to be a bad guy, but after a few too many drinks or something, bad decisions can be made as we have seen before.
Nov 13, 2011 at 5:40 p.m.
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This is a perfect example of a bunch of worrying about nothing.
In about six months, people will realize what all other states, other than Ill, have known for some time. This in not a thing to fear.
The bad guys are already, and have been carrying in these places for a long time...
Nov 13, 2011 at 5:22 p.m.
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That's about all this achieves 414. Show me one instance where a person bent on mayhem saw a no weapons sign and said "Darn, guess I'll just go home". If someone can prove it works, we need to ship a few 100k of "no IED's permitted" signs to Iraq and A-stan.
Nov 13, 2011 at 4:35 p.m.
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Is this the job plan, increase demand for sign manufacturers?
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