Vato- Weeren't you "basing" my spelling yesterday? Vato-"I am tired of people basing Walker because of his education" Not me, but I am guessing you are getting tired of folks "basing" you for your lack thereof! Hahahaha!

If that is what the son gets -you know damn well the dad's constituents are/will get much more in TIFs and tax credits from their governor. At best you can call this crony capitalism. But really, it is socialism for the rich.

What does no degree, little experience and two drunken driving convictions get you? A job in Walker's gubbamint.

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquart...
and an $81K one per year at that. Those teachers, how can they make so much?

Oh Vatoloco - over on that other page you express whimsy that if only T Boone Pickens came into the fray. Perhaps you have some sort of Patriarch complex.

Good Morning-Got those yards signs up OK. Read that Vanity Faire piece. Interesting. Who sponsored it? Why a little outfit called Koch Watch.com. More sponsors of Koch Watch-Progressive Democrats of America, ProsperityAgenda.us and Democrats.org Then digging a little deeper I found they are an arm of something called The Velvet Revolution-Their motto-"A new kind of American Patriot" ( something wrong with the old kind?) Their stated mission to deindustrialize the US among other things. Dig a little deeper and who's at the next layer? Come on, you know you know. That's right Move On. org funded by the your favorite billionaire George Soros. Funny how this bunch can reach right into Janesville and find people to not only believe them but spread the propaganda. Scary stuff people.

For those that continually fall for the right wing vs left wing fantasy, watch this:
The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFj...
It seems that the right wing continually guzzles the Kool aid, and I see the comments here are reflective of that.

If you look carefuly, you'll see that this union-owned judge is wearing a 'Ghadafi Green' top under her robe - her true colors are showing through!

"Judges are not suppose to be told what to do by an angry mob."

No, judges rule on the cases presented to them., which was filed by a lawyer, not an "angry mob". Why do the wing-nuts always blame judges when the wing-nuts break the law? Besides, the judge hasn't even decided if the open meetings law was broken yet.

The judge needs to send up Walker and Fitzgerald for contempt of court with their sham tactics.

Judges are not suppose to be told what to do by an angry mob. This judge will certainly be shamefully disciplined after her tainted rulings are exposed.

vatoloco: if Scott Walker had the brains to be a self-made billionaire, he would not be a corporate puppet posing as an elected official. He would be buying his own politicians. Walker will always be a hired gun. Maybe if he had a college education he could figure this out. Maybe he can get the UW to give him an honorary degree.

ConvolutedTalk said, "This is now law. Book it."
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Well, ConvolutedTalk, you and your Gov. Walker can THINK whatever you want, but even your Gov. Walker is smart enough to ACT like this is NOT now law. Read what his own top aide said -- Gov. Walker is abiding by the Judge's order that the law has NOT taken effect. He and you can spew whatever twaddle you wish, but actions (him abiding but the Judge's ruling) are always stronger than words.
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Department of Administration Secretary Mike Huebsch said Thursday that the Republican governor's administration still believes the law took effect when a state office posted online last week. But he says Walker will abide by Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi's ruling earlier Thursday that the law hadn't taken effect.
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http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/03/3...

Judge Sumi: "OK, you guys, you know what I meant! You can't do that! Even though the state statutes are pretty clear that the law is now in effect, I'm in MADISON! Don't you know that give me the right, the RIGHT, to rewrite the laws as I see fit? Now, don't ask me to give a real legal explanation, just do what I say because I'm a liberal, and liberals are good people who never lie. So there!" Sumi is a joke. This is now law. Book it. I hope she is sued for the amount of money she's costing the state while the appeals go on. Then she should be kicked off the bench.

Answering "John Wicket"...
http://www.politicususa.com/en/scott-wal...

onedayatatime... I admire your research. If I may add a couple of citations:
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Minimum wage: Missouri repub legislature overturned a 2006 referendum that afforded minimum wage increases in line with the cost of living adjustment. The referendum had overwhelming popular support by 75% of voters. The TP backed repubs threw it out.
http://www.themaneater.com/stories/2011/...
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Child Labor + Minimum Wage: Maine voted to decrease minimum wage and extend the working hours for high school students. Students under 18 may now work full time for $5.25 / hr so long as it doesn't interfere with the 'school session'. So, let's lay off full time, minimum wage employees in favor of full time, less-than-minimum wage employees. Notice the title: "An Act To Enhance Access to the Workplace for Minors" http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bi...
Missouri tried the same tactic... It failed to even get support of the repubs...
http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=4...
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And let's never forget what the Texas DOE has done to public education:
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/12/texa...
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Scary times...

scotty just finishing high school isnt a burn vato...its more to point out the obvious of who would know more about the law. ken h was a great man but would you trust him to know more about the law than a judge?? your lack of critical thought process, continuted lack, is almost embarrassing. i wish you could read your numerous posts from someone elses perspective...im confident you would roll your eyes and probably never post again.

ughhh....a judge vs a high school graduate?? im surprised the sarcasm could be missed;)

For those of you who believe there are different agencies that protect workers making unions unecessary: I'm sorry this is so long but there is a lot to cover.
EEOC:
Staffing has decreased by 25 % since 2001. Meanwhile, the caseload is growing.
Results of A survey of EEOC employees
57% said the number of front-line employees at EEOC was inadequate
35% said the number was so low it constituted a crisis.
59% of respondents said morale in their office was at the lowest levels possible.
The fiscal 2009 omnibus spending package President Obama signed in early March includes a $15 million increase for EEOC. "This represents the largest budget increase the EEOC has received in at least the past decade,”
In January 2009 Obama pushed for, then signed, the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009, which amended the Civil Rights Act, the Age Discrimination Act, the Americans With Disabilities Act and the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. The law overturned a 2007 Supreme Court decision that restricted the ability of victims of discrimination to recover back pay from their employers.
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0309/032.........
OSHA:
“In 1982, OSHA's budget was cut sharply and remained near those levels throughout the Reagan administration. OSHA's budget rebounded slightly during the George H.W. Bush administration but fell again in FY 1993. The budget grew during the last years of the Clinton administration and, by FY 2001, reached an all-time high. Since then, OSHA's budget has been cut every year when adjusted for inflation“
8 % decline in enforcement funds from FY 2001 to FY 2008.
In 2008 funding was 12 % lower than it was in FY 1980.
From 1980 to 2005 there was a 62% drop in inspections
After 3 decades of budget and staffing cuts, President Obama’s 2010 budget: asked for a 10% increase for OSHA
http://www.ombwatch.org/node/3587
EPA:
We don’t even need to go into that. It’s common knowledge that the GOP wants to eliminate it.

Minimum wage: One thing that Republicans were fair about.
On 2- 1- 2007 the Senate voted to increase the Federal Minimum wage to $7.25 per hour over the course of two years. The Federal minimum wage increase, by President Bush, was the first increase in a decade.
http://www.laborlawcenter.com
Child labor:
Missouri Senate bill 222, a 12- or-13-year-old could be sent to work full time in Missouri,

Read more: http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/mis..........

My point is, if the agencies that are to protect workers are under funded to the point where they are ineffectual, they may as well not exist.

right on, comcernedperson.

It's funny how fast the repuns said they would abide by the judge's decision after she made herself even more clear and threatened sanctions if they ignored her ruling. She had the right to impose sanctions right away and throw the lot of them in the clinck the first time; too bad she didn't.

Poobah and Fearandrhetoric: I really enjoyed all of your posts. You saved me a lot of time here.

thekid3477: No, Walker, doesn't know the law better than the judge. That's why she will impose sanctions on him and his Repub. legislators IF THEY DON'T FOLLOW THE LAW. It is quite clear Walker does not follow the law. He takes the law into his own hands and tries to impose his dictator ideas on all Wisconsinites. What he is doing is clearly AGAINST THE LAW. Walker deserves to have fines imposed and be in contempt of court for DEFYING A COURT ORDER. The rest of Wisconsinites have to follow the law. AND SO SHOULD OUR GOVERNOR HAVE TO FOLLOW THE LAW. Otherwise, what will become of our beloved State of Wisconsin? I am appalled at our governor when he thinks he is above the law and can do anything he wants. The writing is on the wall and the majority of Wisconsin people are not putting up with his shenanigans.
Wisconsin needs to be brought back to a state where laws are followed by everyone, INCLUDING THE GOVERNOR.

One more thing to Heidi. The biggest strain on the economy IS NOT benefit costs, its taxbreaks and the Governor's refusal to go after the wealthy tax cheats! I would guess that the 100 top tax cheats in the state of WI are all republicans and I will alos be cross referencing the list with donations to the Walker campaign. All of you should too!

Press release by the Republican Party of Dane County regarding this story:
http://www.danegop.org/latestnews.aspx?I...
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"The Republican Party of Dane County recognizes that Judge Sumi is a leftist living in Dane County. Her friends are leftists living in Dane County. Her son is a left wing activist in Dane County. She goes to cocktail parties held by leftists in Dane County. She shops at organic gourmet food shops run by leftists living in Dane County. If she were to enforce the law of Wisconsin and do what was in the best interest of the people of Wisconsin, she’d be exiled from her lifestyle. She’d lose her friends!
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The leadership of the Republican Party of Dane County have all made the choice to stand against the Dane County elite. We accept that Left feels righteous vandalizing our homes and keying our cars. It's only fair. We disagree based upon logic and principle. That is intolerable! We prioritize the Constitution and the well being of the people of Wisconsin over foie gras at cocktail parties. That’s the choice we made."
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This is truly sad... so wrong on so many levels. I am truly ashamed for all repubs. This is your party.

Soccerced- Did Walker really "cheat" while at Marquette? If so he must have been a real disappointment to his minister father. Please let us know more about this character flaw. With all the new fertilizer being heaped on these blogs, they are really growing well. It must be spring in Janesville, just smell the air.

"Judges have no business ruling on legislative issues."
.
That comment is so ignorant I don't even know where to begin.

Apparently he couldn't wait 24 hours or all of this wouldn't be happening.

And why couldn't he wait? Why were these shenanigans necessary? The dems were out of town and even if they caught wind of what he was doing and came back, they didn't have the votes to stop it. Other than arrogance and hubris (I do what I want when I want) I just don't get it.

There is no big hurry to fix Wisconsin. Governor Walker can wait a few weeks, or monhs, if needed. Either way, we are on the way to a better, fiscally responsible future.

fearandrhetoric4dummies, I think the new word for that is refudiated. Copyright 2010 Sarah Palin

With no points to make after yours have been refuted , that seems to be all you have chuck. As usual you show your intelligent side, when you are beaten you start throwing mud.
And thank you Heidi. We agree on very little, but thanks for understanding I dont hate my nation I just dont love it. Very ineresting POVs and I read all of your posts. Unlike chuck who obviously skims and doesnt follow links that prove him WRONG!

I support Walker because I see him in a more favorable light than you do. He is cutting government spending, which I personally believe is out of control. He is reigning in the number one cost driver, which is employee benefit costs.

The issue of creating manufacturing jobs in this country is another issue. This is one of the few areas where Obama is making good efforts. We can't stop the corporations from leaving but we can make it painful to sell to our consumers. Being that we are the largest consumer in the world, we should be the bully when it comes to trade. It should be on our terms and we need to demand that from government. Walmart is a perfect example of this, everyone scrambles to get into Walmart and agrees to Walmart's terms. We could apply the same strategy with our trade. That coupled with tax breaks would encourage companies to relocate to this country. It would upset many other countries, but in the end, you look out for number one.

That is my opinion and this is my last post. Thanks for the lively discussion. I hope that I made you understand the opposition a little better.

Fear,
Your rants are filled with errors for everyone to see.

Yes, you are right fearandrhetoric4dummies that Clinton signed NAFTA into law after Congress ratified it. It was George H. W. Bush who signed the NAFTA agreement with his Canadian and Mexican counterparts and then sent it on to the Republican controlled Congress for ratification.

Obviously one typing mistake makes my point less correct , right Chuck? Keep on truckin pal.

Thats all you got chuck? I guess thats all I would have if I were you.
Heidi- I just want corporations to apy their fair share. When numbers get released that big corporations actually recieve money from taxpayers and dont pay a dime, that is very troubling to me. Tariffs that you speak of on goods are taxes on corporations that move jobs away. Tax breaks are fine, but tax gifts are not. GE makes 14 billion in annual profits and RECIEVES 3.2 billion dollars more while relocating 20% of its workforce overseas. Are those the tax breaks you speak of? Tax breaks is just another meaningless theory whenn practiced hurts the nation that you love so much. I say if a company move its jobs out tax their imports to the point of losses, punish these companies that are anti-american in my book.
To be fair Poobah, the republican congress passed NAFTA, But Bill Clinton a Democrat signed it. Democrats are certainly not free of blame when it comes to trade. they seem to be better than repubs on the issue, but not good enough, not at all. They are all corporate shills in my book. make a dollar screw the people, thats what America is all about. Exceptional!

fear,
" I reda before posting."
--
Do you?

heidib93, I have no idea why you are supporting Walker given your views on trade. It sounds to me like you want further regulation, just as fearandrhetoric4dummies does. In fact, if you look at the amount of trade regulation over the last 25 years, you will find that Obama is responsible for the majority of trade policies in that time frame that are consistent with your views.
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The Heritage Organization and the Wall Street Journal rank countries every year by the degree of "freeness" in their free trade. The trend under Obama has been a marked decrease in freeness -- due to his trade policies which are attempting to do exactly what you are asking for as part of your "robust trade" policies. So why, may I ask, are you supporting conservative causes -- it was conservatives that largely spearheaded NAFTA and other trade policies that you are so opposed to.
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http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/Un...
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Please look at the graph showing the score over time and notice the significant drop over the last two years. I would think you would be very happy with Obama and the direction of his trade policies.

You misunderstood what I meant by a robust trade policy. Our current trade policy puts us at a disadvantage as manufacturers. We need to make it more uncomfortable for incoming trade and more comfortable for manufacturing in our country. The problem with many peoples opinion is that we can just tax the corporations more and that will fix the problem. This will only cause them to move more overseas. We need to tax the goods coming into the country and live with the higher prices at the store. Too many are unwilling to pay extra for the Made In USA label. That is why I see a benefit in giving tax breaks to corporations that bring jobs to Wisconsin.

I don't see unions helping this situation, they are not necessary. I believe that companies reward hard work and if they don't their workers will go somewhere else. The current problem is the high unemployment which limits ones ability to change jobs. If we incentivize manufacturing in the USA we can create more jobs.

I also don't believe that poor people are lazy, but I believe that if you really want to improve your situation you work harder. Sometimes you need to work 3 jobs, maybe you skip lunch, maybe you quit smoking. These are all choices that you make if you really want to improve your situation. Everyone can do these things if they really want to.

Okay Chuck since you dont like my comments I will show you a link for you to read to see who understands the tax code: http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/2011/03/5-sneak...
Dont tell me what I do and dont know pal, I reda before posting. i dont just spout opinions based on nothing. Read that link and tell me that rich folks dont try to avoid taxes in a NUMBER of different ways, I dare you!

Conservative Estimates suggest that almost 10 million manufacturing jobs have been misplaced to Mexico alone since the signing of NAFTA. Is that robust enough for you? Not to mention the millions of jobs gone to China and other far east countries. I would also like to point out that most of these corporations were VERY profitable BEFORE free trade was ever around. They just want more, so they pay lobbyists to pay politicians to lift tariffs. Therefore decreasing tax revenues by BILLIONS. Also eliminating Millions of tax paying jobs from the economy. What is robust about that? Maybe more profitable for a few , but FAR more destructive to the millions of others that just want to work hard for a living.That arent the BEST as you percieve yourself to be. Remember not everyone was blessed with intelligence, some simply have a work ethic and want to excersise it. Hard to do in this America that is good for investors and wealthy folks, but terrible for the middle class. Robust trade is another word for screwing people at the bottom out of either a job or the ability to make a decent wage by the driving down of wages via the "global economy". If that isnt corrupt capitalism , what is?
CApitalism can be great when regulated, the problem is the folks making the rules are the same ones corrupting the system to their friends benefit. Nothing about FREE-trade benefits the United States, NOTHING! It benefits multinational corporations and investors, very few of those people are middle class Americans, which is the backbone of this country. Who represents them? UNIONS!
Again you misrepresent my comments. I NEVER said its IMPOSSIBLE to rise out of poverty. I also would commend you for doing so. To act as if it is easy for kids that live in one parent homes , or kids in homes with abuse(physical/mental/or substance) to just "pull up their boot straps" and "get her done" is a simple arguement. Entitlements as you call them, help people rise out of poverty. For the most part poor folks are very hard working and dont CHOOSE to be poor. Help doesnt just make people lazy, that is a broad brush statement that is more often than not false. Govenment programs are there for folks in need, some take advantage YES, but the overwhelming majority do not. You representation of poor folks acting entitled is offensive. More poor/middle class people would be working but the GREAT majority of decent wage jobs are now in 3rd world nations in the interest of INCREASING profits.
Your love for the USA is fine, and I understand your POV. How you can be so in love with a nation whos LEADING cause of bankruptcy is lack of health care, or health care bills, that is something we can all be proud of right?

"and Sodemann loves Walker, ergo....." Nice connection, honest Abe.
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Yes, Sodemann... it's time to go. This guy seems to despise everyone in education on a deep, personal level. He is just out to destroy the Janesville public school system. This is a pre-requisite to the privatization of education in America. The T.P. asserts that education is a privilege, not a right. Congrats to Janesville schools, teachers and students, for fighting to rise above Sodemann's political agenda.

fear,
You said "Do you think that there is a very LARGE segment of VERY wealthy folks that give soimply because it saves them bottom line dollars?"
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No.
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As I already said. I don't think you understand the tax code. If someone gives money to a charity they don't have to pay income tax on that money. That's it. They don't somehow get the money back.

Fear,
I have never made excuses for a corrupt system, I just don't feel that it is as corrupt as you say.

Also, you are correct, you did not say that you hate America. You said that you do not love America. Sorry of misrepresenting you.

I also agree that people need protections, but we differ on how to implement them. I don't believe that unions are the answer. I believe that a robust trade policy is a better way to make us competitive, yet profitable. If we encourage companies to repatriate manufacturing we could be better off. I never said that I believe in unfettered capitalism, but I do believe that capitalism is the way to prosperity.

America did not invent personal freedom, but we are a beacon of freedom to much of the world. There are many countries where you would not be free to research and comment as you like.

As I said before, if you want to be the best, you have to consider yourself the best. That is in anything (work, sports, education, etc.) This has always been my belief and it has made me successful in life, even though I came from the exact poverty that you claim there is no escape from. It is the life I have lived that has created my distaste for entitlements. I have seen how they can destroy a person's work ethic and drive to succeed.

Does anyone in China making 10 dollars a month working 80 hours a week think they have the greatest country on earth? Maybe they could use some union representation. Making excuses for a corrupt system that rewards cheaters, then covering it up in love for country is the biggest simpleton deflection of an issue possible. I am used to it debating conservatives.

Heidi, to start if you READ my posts, you will not find the words hate America in any of them. I dont HATE America! America is a body of land made by borders, I live here, so do you.

What I HATE is MIS information. I will NEVER believe that we as a nation are better than anyone else. That type of belief to me is dangerous. The reason I fly so far off this specific topic is your use of the "American Exceptionalism" term. It is a manufactured phrase, not by you, and it drives me NUTS!!
I am always up for opinions and discussion , but honest discussion, not rhetoric fed by certain media sources. I think de-regulated capitalism is THE reason for economic collapse and demonstartes the need for unions. People need protection from greed, if they dont have it we will soon be China. These moves against colective bargaining and unions are nothing more tan a ploy to make this nation into a one party system. I am of the belief we need a 6 party sytem, with one term limits for all politicians and zero private money allowed. Maybe in that sort of system we wouldnt need unions, but that will never be allowed to happen by corporate America. The FACTS are all very clear, we DO NOT live in a democracy. I would describe this country that you are so in love with as a corporate plutocracy, or a plutocratic oligarchy. Made for and run by the wealthy, period.
Please dont continue to put words in my mouth and make assumptions. Find once where I said I "hate" America, ONCE! You cant , you just assume so because I am not hypnotized by catch phrases about blind faith. I would much rather choose to use my freedom to be informed about factual history. I love being able to be free to use freedom as a search for the truth about the REALITIES of the world around us and people misconceptions about problems and who is to blame. The freedom to search for the truth is mine, not afforded to me by America. Most countries on Earth would allow me the same choices, not just America. Some people act as if America invented personal freedom.

Heidi said, "Poobah, Ok, it is a right, not a civil right. Now the employer has decided to change that right."
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Heidi, seriously, with all the respect I can muster for your understanding of law, the employers have NOT decided to change that right. The LEGISLATURE and GOVERNOR have decided to change that right. Employers can not adopt or change laws, Heidi.

My comment was in response to a comment from Fear that said they hated America. If I hated where I was living I would move. It was to highlight that you have the freedom to leave if you want to, unlike many other countries in the world.

I also think that liberals like what America gives them, but don't like some of the things that we do. I also think that many of them sit on the sidelines and complain rather than getting involved to change things. I also think that many of them just like to complain. These are all just my opinions and you may feel differently, which I am fine with.

And Heidi, you just mentioned your kids. You love your kids. They do things you wish they hadn't or that you wish they would have done differently. You don't run away to another family - you try to change what it is they've done. This attitude you have of "If you don't like America, you're free to leave" is ridiculous. It assumes we don't love America, which is just petty of you to make that assumption. Some comments have pointed out issues with America -- as your own comment finally has. You aren't going to leave your family for another family because your kids did something you want to change. And we're not going to leave America because there are things we would like to see changed.

Poobah,
Ok, it is a right, not a civil right.

Now the employer has decided to change that right. Legistators put it in and they have the power to take it out.

I appreciate that you are passionate about this, but that still does not make it correct. I fully support a union negotiating with a private company, it does not make sense for the government. Why is it that federal employees cannot collectively bargain? It is because it sets up a conflict of interest.

heidbi93 said, "Finally, back to the topic - collective bargaining. The union rights that you speak of are not really rights, they are entitlements that have been granted upon union workers by the employer."
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heidib93, I swear, if I have to post this one more time I'm going to pay the Gazette to engrave this on their homepage...
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Wisconsin State Statutes
111.04 Rights of employees. Employees shall have the right of self-organization and the right to form, join or assist labor organizations, to bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and to engage in lawful, concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection; and such employees shall also have the right to refrain from any or all of such activities.
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Hello? Heidi? Are you listening? You see where it says Wisconsin State Statutes? The Statutes which grant you rights along with your Constitution? OK. You also see where it says Rights of Employees. That's RIGHTS, Heidi -- as in RIGHTS? Next, you see where it says collective bargaining? COLLECTIVE BARGAINING? Heidi, my friend, COLLECTIVE BARGAINING IS A RIGHT of ALL EMPLOYEES in the state of Wisconsin.

Libs,
If you don't have an argument don't try to deflect the discussion. This is a trick my kids use when they are in trouble.

"We are no more exceptional than ANY nation on earth, nor should we consider ourselves as such. That American Exceptional ism crap really sets me off!"

This is exactly the attitude that in my opinion has made the USA less competitive in the global economy. Ask someone from Germany if their country is the best in the world and they will say yes. Ask the same question of someone from China, France, Italy, England, Iraq, Iran, etc. and they will all say yes. In order to be the best, you have to believe that you are the best. Liberals can't seem to grasp that concept.

Well all right, it's who loves America time....

Does Walker love America more than he does the Koch Brothers?

and Sodemann loves Walker, ergo.....

heidib93 said, "Poobah, It is fine that you don't love America, it should also be fine that I do"
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How dare you question my love of this country. Shame on you.

Poobah,
It is fine that you don't love America, it should also be fine that I do. Don't criticize me because I feel that I live in the best country in the world. The beauty of America is we have the freedom to express our opinions openly and honestly.

I agree that we have done some despicable things with other countries, but when disaster happens, who is there first? When someone needs defense, who is there first? The United States has done great things, please take of the blinders and see what they are.

We do have the strongest economy in the world, it was not caused by Obama, Bush or even Reagan. It was the result of American ingenuity and hard work, which seem to be something that many people are afraid of nowaday. We will continue to be the leader unless we all succumb to the notion that we are not the best.

Actually I am not a very religious person so I don't feel threatened by any religion. I feel threatened by people who want to kill me because I am different from them, it just happens that the majority of them a Muslims. I have many Muslim friends and I don't feel threatened by them at all, there are just certain times of the year that they can't go out to lunch with me because they are fasting.

I have never squelched any religion. I don't know where you got that from. You shouldn't be so judgmental about someone you don't know. And nobody ever said they couldn't build a mosque at ground zero, they just said it would not be respectful of the people who died there.

As far as the anger, I see a lot more anger on the left than I do on the right. Your posts are filled with anger, which is detrimental to your overall well being. I have no animosity towards you, but you obviously dislike me even though we have never met.

Finally, back to the topic - collective bargaining. The union rights that you speak of are not really rights, they are entitlements that have been granted upon union workers by the employer. The employer decided that it was time to make the employee pay for part of these in order to help balance the budget. The collective bargaining is a tool that unions will use to re-instate the lost entitlements in a more favorable political climate. We need this eliminated to protect against this so that we are not having this argument 10 years from now.

I hope that you will read this with an open mind and let go of some of your anger. An open discussion without anger will produce positive results.

No chuck charitable giving is a wonderful thing, I just stated that MANY wealthy people use it as a tool to escape taxes, not all. Again, you misinterpret my contentions and assertions. I will continue to make generalizations the same way many of you do about unions and educators.
To answer your question, no charitable giving is not equal to greed. Do you think that there is a very LARGE segment of VERY wealthy folks that give soimply because it saves them bottom line dollars? Would you also disagree that the definition of tax-deductible charities is questionable at best? When people dodge taxes like Hank Paulson did when Bush hired him to be treasury secretary(50 Million dollars) it causes government programs for poor folks that need them to be cut. I dont want cradle to grave entiitlement society, but I also think there are a lot of govt programs that do help folks that cant help themselves.

NIce post Mr Poobah. I would also suggest John Perkins "confessions of an economic hit man" a book written by a man who worked for thirty years in 3rd world nations doing exactly what you were talking about, leveraging nations so far in debt so the good ol USA could bleed them dry of their resources and move to the next. He was an insider and the book was fascinating.
Now that I have establishes why I dont feel that the USA is an exceptional nation, I am more than ready to discuss unions relavance. We are no more exceptional than ANY nation on earth, nor should we consider ourselves as such. That American Exceptional ism crap really sets me off!
Apologies to all for my ranting, I just dont like misinformation. If you would like to dispute any of my assertions, I am game.
Have to get back 2 work, will be back later to post on union relavance in America. Please conservatives tell me I am an anti-american,and should leave, makes me feel that much stronger in my deductions.

fear,
So charity is really greed? You're just making a joke. Right?

Fear,
Please tone down the anger, it is probably bad for your health.

You state that I am following talking points when in fact you are the one spewing talking points. I am trying to keep on topic, which is that I believe unions are not necessary.

It is great that you admire Ronald Reagan, I also agree that he was one of our greatest presidents. But I don't agree with everything that he said and did. I don't mindlessly follow any politician, I look at what their positions are on multiple issues and make an informed decision. There will be things that I disagree with, but I make what I feel is the better of the choices. You on the other hand are blinded by your anger and frustration.

I still do believe in American exceptionalism, unfortunately you are the polar opposite and you believe that America is evil. I don't care if you leave or not, I am just concerned about your well being and I think that you may be happier if you lived somewhere else. You are the one that stated that you hate America.

I also agree that much is wrong with our political system and financial system. The correct way to deal with this is to participate and try to correct rather than throw stones as you are currently doing. What elected positions have you run for? Do you vote every election? Do you go to listening sessions? In order to get things changed you need to be involved. Too many people claim that they don't have the time, in reality they are just too lazy.

Also, you keep referring to the facts that you offer, but most of them do not apply to this discussion. They are unrelated items that you feel the need to tie me in order to try to discredit me. You seem to have much passion and energy for these causes, it would be great if you would put that less into anger and more into action.

I hope that you will listen to my arguments with an open mind and see that there are opinions different from yours.

I NEVER said it did. I only pointed out that Charitable giving is a tax write off. And that many who take advantage of it that are wealthy use it to their benefit , not to the benefit of their charity of choice. Also the definition of a tax deductible charity is somewhat clouded, disagree?
What is 15% of say a hundred thousand , a million , or more. Also it can be used to move you to another tax bracket so you pay that much less in taxes. All I am saying is that MANY use it as a trick to pay less taxes in an overall picture, disagree?

Ms. Heidi B.

1) "We are the greatest nation in the history of the world." Rhetoric.

2) "We do more good than any nation has ever done." Subjective. What about our exploitation of third world countries and forcing our AngloSaxon Christianity on other cultures as prerequisites for accepting assistance (usually in the form of high interest loans)? These loans keep the third world countries impoverished and enslaved to us. Read Easterley's "The White Man's Burden" if you want to understand how America's "assistance" has done more to harm others than to help them.

3) "We have the strongest economy in the world." Funny to hear a conservative admit to that after all I've heard for two years is how Obama and the Democrats have destroyed our economy. Are you now admitting Obama's leadership has strengthened our economy? And I suppose our strong economy is the reason most other nations are considering moving away from the US dollar for international trade.

4) "We are a country built on freedom.." We were a bunch of rebels, escaping freedom from religious treachery. And now conservatives and the Christian right (what an oxymoron) are trying to make sure freedom of/from religion only applies to Christians and nobody else. It was great until other religions started to "threaten" your safe, little, white Christian world wasn't it?

5) "I am an American and I am proud." Yeah, you sound like you're proud. I'm not sure of what though. You surely aren't proud of the rights we have or had, as you support a governor stripping those rights. You aren't proud of the right of freedom of religion, because you and your conservative buddies are constantly trying to squelch members of religions other than Christianity from building their houses of worship. What are you proud of?

6) "If you hate this place so much, you are free to leave." He is also free to stay and make it better -- and I hope he does. He has more common sense than the whole lot of you angry, old, white, Christian conservatives who are so afraid of your future in a truly diverse America. You are free to leave.

This is all the news stories pertaining to today's ruling that the collective bargaining agreement is not in effect.
http://www.nbc15.com/mobi/news?storyid=1...

Fear - The charitable deduction does reduce your taxable income as you said. But then you multiply your taxable income times the percentage of the tax bracket you are in, for example 15%, to get the tax you owe. So the tax you owe will be slightly less than if you had paid tax on all your income without deductions, but you definitely don't get everything you paid in charitable donations. It only reduces the tax you owe by 15% (or whatever tax bracket your in).

I AM the problem? Your zombie like mindless following of popular talking points is the problem, not me. Facts suck when they dont agree with your ASSumptions.
Keep ignoring facts, it really makes my arguements for me.

here ill get back on topic for you, Ron Reagan on collective bargaining: "But restoring the American dream requires more than restoring a sound, productive economy, vitally important as that is. It requires a return to spiritual and moral values, values so deeply held by those who came here to build a new life. We need to restore those values in our daily life, in our neighborhoods and in our government’s dealings with the other nations of the world.

These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland. The values that have inspired other dissidents under Communist domination. They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost. They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children. Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation not how high is the price of freedom but how much it is worth that price."
On unions:"By outlawing Solidarity, a free trade organization to which an overwhelming majority of Polish workers and farmers belong, they have made it clear that they never had any intention of restoring one of the most elemental human rights—the right to belong to a free trade union."
How ould he fit into todays Republican party?

Conservatives typical comment to a person questioning "American Exceptionalism" : "If you don't like it GET OUT!"
Dont ask questions, just eat the crap they serve you.
Since you seem to be a committed republican, which is fine, I have some questions.
Are you aware that when faced with an economic crisis during his first term, Ronald Reagan RAISED TAXES? Rnald reagan tripled national debt? Ronald reagan negotiated with terrorists? He gave amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants? he signed an abortion rights law as Governor of california in 1967?

Chuck- I donate EVERY year to charity, money and time. Unless the tax code just changed, you can write off all charitable donations from your personal income. So what are you talking about? I have been doing it for years.
From LEGAL ZOOM:The IRS has a limit on giving, but even if your heart exceeds the IRS maximum, you may still be able to benefit from your generous spirit. You may deduct a maximum of up to 50% of your adjusted gross income (AGI) (Line 36 on IRS Form 1040) for the tax year the donation was given. However, if you give more than 50%, the excess may be carried forward for up to five years. Be aware that the 50% rule applies to most contributions, but certain contributions may have lower limits.

Got it Chuck?

I would LOVE to discuss issues with you based on real facts not talking points. If you want to make assumptions about what I watch/read go ahead, it just seems to devalue your continued posting of rhetoric lacking fact.
I love my family , I am proud of my kids. I would like to say the same about my country, but I cant. Thanks to corrupt businesses and policies that benefit the wealthy and take things from the least among us.
In case you and your biased freinds reading this are curious I am an entrepeneur, not a teacher. Unfortunately I donnt watch much TV, but why dont you tell me what they say on MSNBC. Sounds like those "liberals" are just terrible folks that are concerned about people. You seem to be proud of the status quo.

Could you please state your position on Free-trade agreements. i am guessing I already know but I don't want to ASSume like some.

Nice curveball and more talking points Heidi. The use of liberal, MSNBC and other catch phrases show your general lack of independance. I also believe in a previous post YOU stated "We should not be in any country for oil, including Libya." is that your opinion? Why would it be different than the reason we were in Iraq. We didn't go to Iraq because of the genocide Saddam was committing. There have been dozens of other nations that have had FAR greater atrocities suffered by their people that the USA have done NOTHING about! Why is that? If we are the moral police of the world where was the great democracy in Rwanda, Darfur, Sudan, North Korea? Why did our military IMMEDIATELY guard the oil wells in Iraq when we invaded? Not there for oil?
Sorry to disappoint you but I don't watch any cable news. When I do its usually Fox, simply for entertainment. Usually after about 30 minutes I have had all of the lying I can take. For YOUR information I am NOT a partisan, typical response from someone that cannot see beyond oour own corrupt political system.
Again your complete failure to address specific issues and keep rolling out talking points tells me how little you actualy venture outside of Rush, Fox, and the other conservative puppets. It is also typical for folks like you to say I "am free to leave". Why should I? Can I not question the "greatness" of our nation? Or is that not allowed under the first amendment? The reason I gave you a history lesson is because most (like you) fail to see the hypocracy this nation was created under.
"We are the greatest nation in the history of the world. We do more good than any nation has ever done. We have the strongest economy in the world. We are a country built on freedom, freedom to make your own destiny." are those your facts Heidi? Thos are all talking points and OPINIONS. Freedom? I ask you again ask those folks in the inner cities with broken homes of their oppoertunities afforded them. The greatest economy? Really based on what? GDP? I would ask you to look at Wage Desparity between the disappearing middle class and the upper MGMT in this country. Do you know what REALLY caused the financial collapse of 2008? Do you know what a CDO is? Hows about Derivatives? Credit default swaps? You seem to be intelligent, have you researched these banking tricks that were used to STEAL 10 trillion dollars from our economy? Money doesn't just disappear, someone has it, somewhere. Unless you believe in magic.

It sounds like a case could be made to hold Walker and Fitzgerald in contempt of court.

...

Where is our authority on the matter of law, RetiredAF when you need him/her.

Fear,
I also liked your last post about the "illusion of knowledge". It appears that this is part of your problem, you think that what you have heard is fact, but you haven't dug deep enough to realize that you have been misled.

Fear,
YOU are the problem with the United States. YOU are embarassed to be an American.
YOU think the United States is bad.

We are the greatest nation in the history of the world. We do more good than any nation has ever done. We have the strongest economy in the world. We are a country built on freedom, freedom to make your own destiny. I am an American and I am proud.

If you hate this place so much, you are free to leave. That is another freedom that you enjoy.

Your facts are also suspect, it is not a fact that we invaded Iraq for oil. It may be touted as fact by MSNBC, but it is not fact. It is an opinion. The facts are that Saddam was murdering civilians, the same reason Obama invaded Libya. If you have contempt for one, have contempt for both. Dont be a hypocrite just to try to prove a point.

As for opportunities, I started with nothing and made something of myself through hard work. If you work hard, you will be successful. Everyone has the potential to be successful, the only thing holding them back is their lack of desire to work harder. There have been times when I have worked 100 hours a week to get something done, this is what it takes.

Once again you veered off topic, this is about eliminating union entitlements. These people are not exactly victims, they have good jobs with great benefits. The unfortunate people that have situations beyond their control are covered by numerous government programs. Don't try to equate a union worker losing benefits to a person that is seriously injured and cannot work. They are two totally different things.

If you would like to discuss the issue at hand, I will gladly have a debate. If you want to assume things about me based on your headline grabbing from liberal news sources it is not worth my time. You try to mix multiple issues to cloud the main issue and divert peoples attention from the facts.

I got a text earlier today that the judge clarified her ruling by saying the collective bargaining bill isn't in effect.

fearandrhetoric4dummies
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I don't think you understand the tax code. If someone gives money to a charity they don't have to pay income tax on that money. That's it. They don't somehow get the money back.
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If you ever filed a tax return with a charitable donation on it you would know that.
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Are you projecting your own negativity on to others?
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Please, tell me you're not a teacher.

The enemy of knowledge is NOT ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. Thats for you heidi, from a "victim"

I don't need to play the victim card, I have a good education, have many accomplishments in my life I am very proud of, I dont need to come into a blog and bring myself up to bring others down. I just seem to have a BROAD understanding of other folks struggles based on life experience, and realize that it is not completely their fault. Taking away many "entitlement" programs that people like you continue to demonize, would cause a much greater dent on society than any of you could possibly realize.
50-75 thousand people each year DIE because of lack of or bad health insurance policies. That is the equivalent of 20 september 11th's! Where is the outrage? All we hear from folks like you is "socialism". I for one am tired of the rampant ignorance in American society.
You can call folks "victims" all you like, thats fine, just keep avoiding facts. Then when America becomes a 3rd world country, people like you can blame the poor folks, and not the corrupt politicians and corporations that stole the money.
I would also like to point out that your cute little post pointing to your disagreement with my positions, you fail to refute ONE fact that I posed, ONE! Its because you can't, and the facts shall set you free.

Typical answer from a person who has none. Lots of rhetoric. I speak in FACT. If you read my posts, you would have seen my mention of the Middle east conquest as a whole. I am not entirely sure about us being in Libya right now for Oil. Iraq was entirely about oil, that is an absolute FACT.
I am no victim, I dont know where you even extract that from. Heidi I just hope that you can stop the Fox news repeating. Eliminating entitlements? Millions of folks in this "great" nation have no choices because there are no chances for them to be EXCEPTIONAL. Have you ever been through a struggle? Ask people in Detroit, New Orleans, Milwaukee how many opportunities are out there for them to excel, especially when growing up in school systems that are constantly under attack by mostly conservative individuals.
Of course you dodge the free trade arguements or any of the facts based on the financial collapse. Many MILLIONS of people in this nation just want to work hard for a living and make a life for themselves, why is it that you don't see that? They are the ones under attack by this governor and several other politicians. Typiical answers from someone who really has none but talking points.
You dont like my "veering" than cut the "American Exceptionalism" crap, because thats EXCATLY what it is. All people have a chance to exceed, but the corrupt corporate global economy doesnt allow most to do so. You live in your happy little world and are successful, congrats! I am sure it is well deserved. Your obvious lack of sympathy for people that don't have the opportunities you had, is what makes me angry. Understand that there are tens of MILLIONS of people that are shut out of the American dream daily, because of this world of unfettered capitalism. Greed and ignorance are 2 qualities of Americans that have ruined this great nation. I have volunteered at inner city youth centers, schools, and food banks. My father in law is a hospital exec in Milwaukee and can tell you hundreds of awful stories of poverty related to health care, but that is somehow playing victimhood?

Fear and Rhetoric,
You have veered way off topic, please try to keep the conversation relevant. Just because I agree with the elimination of union entitlements doesn't mean I agree with all of your anti-conservative talking points. On one point you are absolutely correct. We should not be in any country for oil, including Libya. I am surprised you didn't mention this.

I personally believe that everyone has the potential to be exceptional, that is what makes this country great. It is a shame that you don't see this in your fellow citizens. I hope that you aren't a teacher, I wouldn't want my kids being told that they can't be the best.

What I see from your rants is that you feel as though you are a victim of some great conspiracy to hold you down. I believe that it is YOU that is holding you down. You can reach any level of success you want, provided you are willing to put in the hard work to get there. You want it given to you because you deserve it. Nobody deserves success, it is something that is earned through dedication and hard work. Quit with the negativity and victimhood, you will find that a positive attitude will greatly improve your life.

A cheater doesn't change his spots. Remember he cheated at Marquette and left, he's cheating now and will leave when the recall hits.

All the Fitzgeralds had to do was carve out the collective bargaining bill while the Senators were gone, give 24 hrs notice and vote. In fact they could do it all again by Friday, but they refuse to believe they could ever do any wrong. They have over reached there party and some senators will get recalled. I have heard that Darling and Hopper already have the needed signatures, but they are adding more to insure no challenges and duplicates.

Just to be clear I do not faukt the men and womenbravely folllowing orders in terrible unthinkable conditions, I fault the bastards giving their orders. And the batsards that own the bastards giving their owners. Life is not as simple as you make it seem.

I know MANY wealthy folks personally, and none of them work in their community, NONE! Because they give money to charities doesnt make them great people, its a tax write off for most.
I am allowed to generalize all I want, thats what many of you have been doing to teachers for weeks and months on end. So chuck if you don't like it , too friggin bad.

Finally I would like to end with Free Trade. Now you have to love this , multi million dollar corporations lobby both republitards, and democRATS to lift tariff laws so they can take away their blue collar jobs and move them to Mexico or China for pennies on the dollar, all while bringing their goods here TAX-Free! CEO's get raises millions of unexceptional middle class folks are left with nothing. As long as the exceptional folks keep making more its okay. Want an Idea why unemployment isnt coming back? READ SOMETHING!
The fact that health insurance companies have 15 lobbyists for every member of congress, and financial institutions have 20, shows me that this country is far from exceptional. Unfortunately it really never has been. I am happy to live in a place where I can express my views freely, but I have a hard time loving a nation that bails out multi millionaires, dumps on educators, murders civillians in the name of freedom(money). I love my family and friends , but I do not love America. Unfortunately this world is full of Human beings that are all flawed, so going elsewhere wouldnt make anything better. This world is full of bad people, that serve rhetoric and hyperbole for millions to eat up and support them. It works best here in America unfortunately because our "freedom of speech" no one is held accountable.
On the darkest day in our nations history September 11, 2001, 3000 innocent Americans perish. we were attacked by Islamic fundamentalists that we funded to defeat the soviets in Afghanistan. 19 highjackers from Saudi Arabia violated our freedom. So we attack Iraq and Afghanistan and subsequently kill a million civillians, does that make sense to anyone? Iraq has OIL, and Afganistan has the richest mineral deposits of nickel and lithium in the world, but we are fighting for freedom? That is an EXCEPTIONAL premise, dont you think?
American Exceptionalism is the worst term I have ever heard. This country has enough to be ashamed of to get off their high horse and just cut the crap.

We can get a little more current if you like. Hows about our current middle easten conquest? On top of going to war on FALSE pretense, we have systematically killed over a million civillians since our entry into the arena, not my numbers, British Medical Journal's. Not to mention our own soldiers, THOUSANDS DEAD, TENS of THOUSANDS more crippled for life, THousands more mentally destroyed, for life. What an exceptional conquest! Now we are starting a new war, perfect! What exactly was the reason for going in? ummmmm WMD's, none of those. Who has made the most profits off of the wars? Need I even say? Essentailly a war started during an emotional time, for MONEY and OIL! EXCEPTIONAL!
Lets move again, to the financial crisis. 30 years of bank de-regulation by investment bankers serving in the Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations de-regulating everything so they could steal EVERYTHING! 10 TRILLION dollars GONE! Unless you believe in magic you know that NOTHING simply disappears. the facts are these investment banks, credit ratings agencies, and securities insurance companies piled good and bad debt together sold them as derivatives, insured themselves against their own bad investments(AIG) , handed the instant profits to their marketable employees with exceptional fraud skills and asked the regualr Taxpayers to bail their companies out when the money was gone and the bills came due. The corrupt cabinet members(former investment bank employees) allowed banks to leverage their actual capital vs borrowed money over a thousand to one! That is EXCEPTIONAL dont you think? Steal over 10 trillion dollars and ask taxpayers to give you more? Exceptional nerve if you ask me.Awesome to how many millions of Americans close to retirement had their 401ks destroyed by these bastard too. Why would we want pensuions? Just trust these people to invest your money and you will be rollin on easy street!

"AMerican Exceptionalism" a talking point used by FNC, what a joke!
Lets start with the "Founding fathers" Equal rights? All men created equal? Really? Hmmm I guess the fact that they all owned slaves while preachin freedom doesn't bother you? Even the fact that Thomas Jefferson procreated with a few? Ill tell you that fantastic divine document , the constitution, helped women to be able to vote 144 years after it's adoption, EQUALITY, EXCEPTIONALISM! Do you know what the 3/5 compromise was? Exceptional! Blacks were finally not allowed to be owned 87 years after its adoption, let freedom ring! Not to mention it took over another 100 years to pass a civil rights act to stop whit folks from discriminating against them like they still owned them! that is a SMALL taste of America's EXCEPTIONAL history.

fearandrhetoric4dummies
How many wealthy people do you know? I have found them to be VERY generous caring people who are always looking to help others succeed. In fact, I cannot think of a single one that is not genuinly interested in their fellow man. I have personally benifited from their good-will many times.

Unfortunately Heidi, not everyone is "eceptional", this country certainly isn't anymore. While many of us do have marketable skills , many more do NOT!! I can understand that you are selfish person, and you probably have worked very hard for what you have, and for that you should be commended. Unfortunately, this "exceptional" country is full of greedy selfish people that couldnt give a care about ANYONE but themselves, and most of those folks are the ones profiting off of the less fortunate, and moving middle class working jobs to China and Mexico to save a buck. Do you have a problem with that, or is that just another thing that makes America "exceptional"? Free-unfettered capitalism that continues to create a far greater despairity between the most fortunat and the least. According to your arrogant post it seems that you have a problem with folks that work hard physically for a living. They must not be exceptional enough for you. This used to be a great country, you could work hard make a living and raise a family. Now unless you are "exceptionallly" marketable you better go find employment at Wal-Mart.
I find the reapeating phrases like "American Exceptionalism" to be just fodder for people with NO original thoughts and have NO clue of the depths of our society. The wealthy make money , donate to charities (many corrupt) and write it off on their taxes. They dont volunteer, they dont help those that cant help themselves, they just TAKE. To me thats what you are Heidi, a taker, and you are full of hot air. Maybe you might try to understand that not everyone is of your HIGH marketable standard, not everyone can get the quality education that you recieved, and even if they succeed in that , what are the chances that the millions of impoverished inner city families can afford college? try to get a loan when mom is disabled and you never knew dad. Your comments in your last post are unenlightened and make me want to PUKE!

The judge made it clear this time that the restraining order pertained to the prevention of the law being enacted. Yet, even this evening they are continuing to implement the law according to this article which was recently released. That definitely violates the court order. I think individual citizens would go to jail for violating such an order. So it looks like Department of Administration Secretary Mike Huebsch may be going to jail as a result of this. Does he really want to go to that extent in supporting Walker? Walker definitely feels he is above the law.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/g...

djs4464 said, "Unions are for then lazy who need protection from missing work, to many sick days on monday or friday,hangovers,beer lunches, ect."
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Seriously, think back to your school days (if you aren't still in grade school) and think about your teachers and how few days you ever had substitute teachers. I can't remember more than a handful of days with substitutes all through K-12. This is just a very, very unfair comment without any merit. Shame on you.

heidi, way to go. I have lived my life much the same way and have reaped the rewards I earned. Unions are for then lazy who need protection from missing work, to many sick days on monday or friday,hangovers,beer lunches, ect. I have seen it all and have no sympathy for those losers.

The government has laws in place to prevent workplace abuse (labor laws), poor safety (OSHA), and pollution (EPA). These laws will not go away, they have been in place for years and they are there for good reasons.

Thank you to the unions for getting a lot of this in place. The problem is that the unions have gone from reasonable solutions to arcane rules that drastically limit flexibility and drastically increase costs. Unless the unions can back off on their extreme demands, we have no choice but to force the issue.

all the people who think unions are unneeded just need to look at mexico and china to see how those large companies will treat every worker.they abuse, pollute and could care less about anything other than profits not just a share but the whole thing.

Walter,
I have never been part of a union and I have always made more money than the union members at those companies. This is because I have marketable skills that are in demand. I am able to shop those skills to the company that is willing to give me what I want as an employee. I can understand where you would have trouble understanding this if you are not an above average worker. I have always been above average and have been rewarded for that, I don't need, nor do I want a union that will classify me as equal to the "average" worker. The same applies to every worker in this world, if you go above and beyond just showing up for work, you will be rewarded. If you want everyone to be equal, that is communism and I believe in American exceptionalism. I want the opportunity to excel and a union does not allow that.

heidi,
Where exactly did I name call of degrade anyone. Give me a break? Do you mean the word "ignorance"? That is not an insult in case you haven't heard. It describes someone that is uninformed, which I believe you are. The government has put workplace safeguards in place because of the blood, sweat and tears that unions sacrificed to make sure that it happened. As we can see happening right in front of us, the government can do away with things unions have worked so hard for. Collective bargaining rights are guaranteed by law and the government is trying to take them away. If the government can do that, what's stopping it from doing away with any of the workplace safeguards that unions fought for. I am not living in the past, and unions are not obsolete. I am simply not having the wool pulled over my eyes by Republican tactics meant to tear the middle class apart from the inside out. What big business wants you to believe is that unions are unnecessary so that, eventually, they'll disappear. Then big businesses can, with the government's help because they own it, undo all the union safeguards that are keeping them from sucking up the last little bit of money that unions have been able to keep for the middle class. This is not about the budget. This is about money and power. It looks like you believe the middle class should have none of either.

THANK YOU SOOOOOOOOO MUCH NICE LADY JUDGE

packersfan,
I do lean left. If the Democrats violated a law in passing a bill, the Republicans certainly had every right to call for a judicial review. The one I can think of that may have been questionable was the statewide smoking ban in bars & restaurants. If there were questions as to the legality of its passing, I never heard about it. I wasn't for it, but I don't believe that it was voted on illegally in any way. If there is another case you can think of, please give some details.

Our gov. is getting his hands slapped, he thinks that he can over rule a judge. He thinks he can do anything he wants tooooooooo. Thank you Judge Sumi your are one smart lady....
My Senior Care is safe for another month.

Walter, I hope you have the same opinion when the Democrats are trying to pass a bill. Judging from your other postings, you seem to lean toward the left.
Where was all this outrage when Doyle and the Democrats pushed a bill through the legislature in 24 hours?

Walter,
Unions had their place years ago, the government has now put workplace safeguards in place that have made unions obsolete. You are living in the past and you sir are the ignorant one. If you want to have a debate, then debate facts. If you want to call names and degrade others, shut up!

heidi,
As dtb pointed out, you really have no idea what unions are really about. Good luck with your ignorance.

Give 'em hell, Maryann!! I can imagine that little Scotty was not used to hearing the word "No" as a child. Wait until he hears that word from the voters in the next election.

Paranoid or what?!?!? http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases...

dtb,
I don't have a dislike for unions, I just find them unneccesary. It is the administrations job to keep class sizes under control, working conditions positive, etc. Just as in any other company, the employee has a choice as to if they want to work there. Employers will find that if they don't offer perks and maintain positive conditions, they will lose employees to other companies/school districts. The better teachers will be in high demand, therefore able to make more demands. The lower quality teachers will find that they can't make demands and will either improve or look for employment elsewhere. Either way, the education system will improve in the end. Our ultimate goal is improving our educational system because our current system is failing many of our nation's students.

Walter,
I bargain with a potential employer whenever I look for a new job. I bargain about pay, vacation, work hours, etc. I do not need a union to do this for me.

heidi, CB is about a lot more than pay and benefits. It has a lot to do with working conditions; with making sure you don't have more kids in your class than you can possibly teach; with making sure there is a reasonble process in place for employee discipline (including non-renewal)and making sure it gets followed, etc., etc.
The unions understand that there needs to be a correction in pay and benefits and they were willing to agree to the fiscal demands of walker.
It's no secret that employees that feel that they have some say in these matters are happier more productive employees. They will be better teachers if they don't always have to be looking over their back to see if someone is ready to stab them there.

dtb, Ford weathered the storm simply because they had arranged financing and loans before the collapse, so they had reserves to bring them through. GM and Chrysler did not, not to mention their relatively pathetic lineup. Not the workers faults. If GM and Chrysler's corporate culture had actually attempted to remain competitive in the realm of "cars people actually want to own", then they would not have fallen nearly so far. GM did trucks and high end SUV's well. Chrysler did trucks well. Neither was prepared for $4 a gallon gas. You can either blame the workers for taking what they could in pay in benefits, or blame the automakers for living in the 90's.

"Sumi is set to hear additional arguments Friday on the larger question of whether GOP legislative leaders violated open meetings law during debate on the measure. She also is considering claims by some officials that the law technically took effect last weekend after a state agency unexpectedly published it online."

Much to the chagrin of walker & co., this "liberal activist judge" appointed by Thompson appears to actually be looking at both sides of the issue.
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I can understand the need for a TRO here. This is probably is not the only case on her docket and time is needed to hear and consider both sides, research the applicable laws, etc. The last thing we want is to be jerked around with "it's a law-it's not a law-it's a law." Let's take the time and have the decision made be the right one, whichever way it goes. It appears to be headed for the state supreme court anyway, so Friday's hearing won't be the last we hear of this. It will be good fodder for posters for weeks and maybe months.
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I still maintain that had the repubs done this by the book and not resorted to shenanigans none of this would be an issue.

fearandrhetoric4dummies> The Milwaukee Public School Teachers health benefits are provided through two self-funded plans, the MPS PPO/Indemnity Plan administered by Aetna, Inc. (and effective April 1, 2011 by United HealthCare) and the MPS Choice EPO Plan administered by United HealthCare.

I understand about pension costs. I also understand that the UAW absorbed the pension liabilities for their members and still the car companies struggled.

Ford seems to have weathered the storm and the other 2 did not. Why is that?

The economy tanked and people stopped buying new cars because they couldn't afford them, especially the guzzlers that American car companied were producing. Foriegn car makers took a hit also but not as bad since their cars generally get better mileage and last longer with a higher resale value. They also offered hybrids long before the Americans developed similar technology.
I get that as a local school board member you don't like unions heidi. But they are not the destroyers of our economy as you would like to believe.

heidi,
This was the first sentence of your post:
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"You have every right to bargain, just as a private sector worker has the right to bargain."
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How is that saying that they should have their collective bargaining rights taken away?

heidi,
The big 3 agreed to those benefits during contract negotiations. They are just as much to blame as the union is, if not more because the union has to look out for the workers first while the company has to look out for the company first. If the people running the company had been doing their job, they never would have agreed to benefits that were going to run them out of business. Perhaps you should do some resarch into the collective bargaining process. These facts you talk about might actually do you some good.

Walter,
I never said they should retain collective bargaining. I think collective bargaining is stupid. If you are the best at what you do, employers will reward you better and you won't be held back by the "average" worker.

Collective bargaining must be eliminated to prevent the re-introduction of the excessive benefits that caused this problem. This is not a short term solution, the shared cost of benefits is here to stay. It is a necessity to keep our fiscal house in order.

unclesmoothie,
That's not the "standard liberal line". That was one person's comment. There is quite a difference.

Dtb,
Why did the big three get to the point of bankruptcy?

It was because all three had the same problem. The cost of benefits added thousands of dollars to the price of each car, therefore making them less competitive with other manufacturers. The future liabilities for these benefits were staggering and could not be maintained. Why would we want to repeat this scenario?

This is not about wages, it is about benefits. Top level benefits that are impossible to pay for. Please look at the numbers and you will understand. If you choose not to do some research, you will always repeat the talking points from you favorite news source. Headlines are flashy, but facts are the important part. Learn the facts about pension costs and you will understand my point.

heidi,
The state workers agree with you and agreed to take the cuts. Their issue the entire time has been with losing their collective bargaining rights, which, as your comment says, you believe they should have. Do you know which side you're on?

Truth1 you are absolutly right. only I call them thugs. What amazes me is that a small segment of society seems to realize this. To me all this time people spend arguing back and forth about the 2 main party's in this country they have not a clue about what is really going on behind the scene's.

truth,
Public employees are not paid directly by tax payers. When was the last time you wrote a check to a public employee? We pay our taxes to the state, county and city and the money is distributed to people that have earned it. They do not work directly for us and they are not paid directly by us. Your point that unions squeeze taxpayers is silly because the money goes right back to taxpayers. Just because you're not one of those taxpayers doesn't make it wrong.
Plus, I was referring to total compensation packages. Public workers in WI still make less than private employees.

You have every right to bargain, just as a private sector worker has the right to bargain. You also have the choice to leave your job if you don't like the terms of employment, just like a private sector worker. The fact that you choose to stay says that you have it pretty good.

Why is it so hard for the public workers to understand that not everything in this world is free? You have been getting it free for too long and now it is time to cover a small portion of the costs associated with top level benefits. Quit being so selfish and have some consideration for those of us that are paying for your benefits and our benefits. Why should we have to cover the entire cost of both?

"The unions accepted concessions when Ford was on the verge of bankruptcy, now that Ford is profitable, the union wants back"
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So if they "shared the pain" when the company was on the ropes, why shouldn't they share in the reward now that the company is making money?
Unless you think that when a company loses money it's because of those darn workers, but when it makes money it's because of the brilliant CEO. You can't have it both ways.

Alright unclesmoothie prove me wrong then if you really do own a small business what is it? I don't believe you do. Also I never said you were lazy I just suggested that if you were unhappy with your situation you should do something about it instead of sitting around bitching about on a blog. I am 22 years old went to college, got a degree, was hired in a public service job for you the taxpayer to tell me you don't think I deserve the right to bargain? To hell with that. Also let me point out I am not a liberal nor am I a republican I hate them all equally. Not one group really cares about any of us. You may think your gov cares about you but your wrong he could give a s#$t less about you or any one else in this state.

VOTE KLOPPENBURG!

Yes, MOST politicians are out-and-out crooks.
"D" steals you blind and "R" stabs you in the back.

Walter- What you don't seem to want to see is the politicians on the side of the public unions get to keep squeezing the taxpayers with their insider monopoly....Private union members don't get paid directly by taxpayers like public ones do.

I may not agree with any of it. All I pointed out was that they show no support but for their own. Then some buffoon calls me a high school drop out and lazy. The standard liberal line when they face an opinion the doesn't agree with theirs. Kinda sickening isn't it?

@copo disappointed in your general lack of factual information. Teachers are stealing? Could one of the School Board members educate those that dont know that Janesville's health insurance is SELF-FUNDED!! That is why there is a 25-30 million dollar surplus in the fund 10 balance. Copo you are a severely misinformed individual, and your lies just make you look that way. The theft of tax dollars are not occuring in education, they are happening in corporate America. You may want to try to educate your self before spewing LIES! Your posts just look silly.

They all know that the only reason that they want to retain collective bargaining is so that they can recover these lost benefits later.

A perfect example is Ford Motor Company. The unions accepted concessions when Ford was on the verge of bankruptcy, now that Ford is profitable, the union wants back the same items that caused the problem in the first place. This is exactly what the public employees union wants.

We can't allow this happen otherwise we will be having this same argument in a few years. The current system is broken and this is the best way we see to fix it.

I didn't say JUST "money", I said pay AND "BENEFITS" and EVERYTHING combined......gotta get that straight.
With those combined, they will STILL be getting a lot more than those paying the bill, no humor needed.
Yes I'm sure there are exceptions here and there, but by and large, ITS TRUE.

unclesmoothie,
If that's how you feel about politicians, why do you think they should be given the opportunity to keep squeezing with this C.B. law? You might think that unions are "running amok", but don't they also keep money in the hands of the workers?

We are all aware that public union employees are taxpayers just like the rest of us, right? Plus, if the argument that they make so much more money than their private union counterparts is correct (it's really not but I'll humor it), than they pay even more taxes and have even more right to complain or not complain, right?

Walter, when somebody stoops so low as to attack my level of education or my motivation to work I am insulted. Get over it? Move on? I happen to own my own small business and I am doing quite well thank you. However I am looking to relocate to another state like South Dakota where I won't be taxed out of business. Wisconsin's taxes are some of the highest (if not THE highest) in the nation. Wisconsin is losing small businesses at an alarming rate. These are the people who fill the tax coffers. Who will Wisconsin tax when they're all gone? It's not just the state employee unions that are running amok..... It's the politicians as well. ALL of the politicians. They think they can keep squeezing another buck out of the average worker and they are wrong.

copo- No one can give a good reason for all the Taxpayer Bilking, but they keep trying and trying and trying.......one convoluted argument after another.
..
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The kicker is, even AFTER this, they'll still have combined pay/benefits a lot better than the taxpayers paying the bill.

copo,
The union agreed to the pay cuts to help pay more into health care and pensions. They just want to keep their collective bargaining rights to fairly negotiate any further cuts. If the state and the union bargained to use a health care insurance provider that is run by the union that means that both the state and the union agreed, so I don't understand what your gripe is.

Never said mine was the only one that counted. And using that argument is just plain dumb. Everyone has an opinion just the same as every one has two ears. And yes i think my opinion is right and so do you but thats the beauty of living in America we all have the right to form our own opinion. So now you tell me that you read this bill in its entirety and still think its a good idea...... Yea thats right you can't because your opinion is the same of the rest of the people who were let down by there smaller less powerful private unions. I'm sorry we couldn't save your job and your benefits I really am but come on man get over yourself.

Maybe we should have the lifestyle of Japan. No weekends, No holidays, No sick days. Low wages, 7 days a week of work, big business makes most of the money and the little guy makes nothing. Hey wait I think that's the way America wants to go, wow! Good thing we don't want unions anymore that freed us from that!

Written like someone with nothing left to write, unclesmoothie. Maybe you should go get some fresh air. :)

As with all liberals, Heres-my-opinion is the only opinion that counts.

This is why collective bargaining for benefits and insurance (NOT WAGES) are and should be taken off the table for WI Public Sector Unions.

Can anyone who is Pro Gov't Worker Union explain to me how, by any stretch of the imagination, they believe that this kind of outright Bilking of the taxpayer be allowed to continue?

The extremely thorough (Cadillac) and monstrously expensive health insurance enjoyed by 64% of WI's public school district employees is paid for by the taxpayer as a direct result of Union 'Collective Bargaining".
The clincher?The health carrier identity, which is required be subjected to collective bargaining, is owned by the GD Union!!!!!

What a racket!

Bert Lahr, the Cowardly Lion!

So, in the end, it was insurance companies that killed the unions.

packersfan,
If the law was passed illegally, the issue needs to be resolved. Pure and simple. Just because you think it's a partisan issue, doesn't mean it actually is. "Liberal activist judge" is just a debatable term and a matter of opinion based on whether a person likes or dislikes a given judge's rulings.

The Teacher's Union is stealing from the taxpayers of Wisconsin. A union-mandated high-cost health plan that is owned by the union is milking the taxpayers by charging premiums that far exceed market norms, and are doing so with impunity or apparent recourse.

no the point is your living in the past. this is today we are fighting for tomorrow. get over yourself and think for yourself for once.

garyprimer - Why don't they use any pictures of him where he looks more intelligent?
It is a complete mystery. I think we ALL know the answer to that particular question. Hard to find such a picture when the man isn't intelligent!

I have to agree with "here's my opinion". There has been a fair amount of anger from those in private unions talking about what they don't have but public unions do. In my opinon that says more about the failings of the private unions. There are strong unions and weak unions. Public unions have proven to be stronger than the private unions that have given in to corporations. What I am seeing is a lot of jealousy coming from those in private unions. I can't say that I blame them for being jealous, but I think that to condemn public unions for trying to maintain that strength is really pathetic. Those private union members that support this law fail to recognize that they'll still have their collective bargaining rights while the public employees will be left with nearly none at all. Not to mention that corporations, already in bed with Republicans, will now have quite a blueprint for taking away private unions' rights to collective bargaining. I would think that that is a pretty scary thought for a private union member.

No, no, it was Bert Lahr.

Funny isn't it that a republican judge has halted a law by a republican governor and he calls it a foul play. Tells you something that maybe there is something crooked here. Just a thought people never think about.

The point is, where were all those PUBLIC UNION people when unions were thrown out of other places?
Probably on the beach in Florida or Hawaii, or at a "professional sports" event instead of at a protest.

WaltherReuther, you say that it's not a partisan issue. But the Dane County District Attorney is a Democrat, and the judge is a liberal activist judge. They are just trying to stop passage of the law to further their liberal agenda. The Democratic senators were the ones who left the state to prevent passage of the original bill. The Republican senators then had to remove the fiscal portion of the bill, so it could be passed finally. Who knows when the Democratic senators were going to return? Now the Democrats are acting like sore losers.

fearandrhetoric4dummies - Well said my friend, very well said!!! Not sure why certain people can't see that either? What in the hell is wrong with those folks that can't see what you are sayin?

I love the picture of her. Reminds me of a movie from the past, I think it was called "The Wizard of Oz". Something about a wicked witch.

You people should feel lucky that someone has decided to stand up for the people of WI. Anyone who thinks this bill is a good idea has there head so far up there own a@$ its not even funny.
@unclesmoothie and truth1
Get off your computer and find a new job if your so upset about it. Or better yet go to school and learn a skill set that will allow to get one of these cushioned state union jobs oh wait the reason your probably working a job that pays little and has no benefits is because you didn't graduate high school and if you did you didn't go to college.

I have not purchased a tyson product since! I know many others that are the same way, plenty of outrage, just dont hear it in corporate media. I am not in the market to purchase a trailer so... I dont support the Governors love affair with ST Trailers. I also dont think he would have been there giving a speech if they were still a union shop do you? How is Tailers doing since they pushed the union out? Not very well, and their future certainly isnt llooking great with the price of fuel rising again.

packersfan,
The law is the law. This is not a partisan issue. If the Republicans broke the open meetings law in passing the repair bill, then they should have to go through the entire process again legally. There's nothing complicated about it. If the Supreme court rules that the passing of the law was legal, then it should be published and implemented.

I remember getting my first "attitude" lecture ........when they can't successfully argue their point, they come back with "its your attitude".
I've gotten quite a few "attitude' lectures since.

WalterReuther, would this even be an issue if it were the Democrats who were trying to pass a law instead of the Republicans? I think not.
King Rizzo, it sounds like you just want to insult people who disagree with you. Grow up!

unclesmoothie- Remember, its never about right and wrong, its always about "attitude", whatever THAT is supposed to signify.

That's exactly what it is.

It looks like elements of "I got mine, to heck with you" exist everywhere, eh?

An attitude like what? That the big unions only care about the big unions? There was a time when most small companies had union employees. It's a thing of the past. And all of the big unions watched it happen. Now that they are on the chopping block people are supposed to care? Seriously, how many people are union employees anymore? Nobody cares unless it's their union thats getting harassed. The big state employee unions watched all the smaller unions get run outta town and did nothing.

unclesmoothie, yes, WHERE was all that "union solidarity" back then?????????

With an attitude like that,
why would should anyone
care what you think?

More delay... more delay.
Whatever it takes to remove the voter from dictating the outcome.
The true nature of the left for all to see.

I make less money with crappy benefits and no pension to look forward to. I used to be pro union until I got screwed TWICE and nobody cared. Why should I be worried about their pension and benefits?

unclesmoothie- WOW, great point!!!!!

I still stand by a previous statement of mine..... Where was all the outrage when the unions were run out of Stoughton Trailers and Tyson foods...... nobody cared. Not a single peep came from any state employees union. Let em bite the the bullet like everyone else they watched get the short end of the deal.

packersfan1,
Judges absolutely should rule on legislative issues if the act of passing a law actually violates a law. That is exactly what judges are expected to do. There's been a lot of squawking about Judge Sumi's alleged conflict of interest, but there's been no real legal action by Republicans to force her ruling to be vacated. Her ruling had nothing to do with collective bargaining or unions. It was about the need for a ruling on the legality of the passing of the law and the necessity of the TRO to give the court time to make that ruling. That entire scenario is quintessentially impartial.

"Why don't they use any pictures of him where he looks more intelligent?"

There aren't any.

The judge has every right to rule on this and people should stop making lame, useless arguments against her. She is doing her job. Deal with reality and move on. There is still plenty of time for the governor to get a law passed to cut support for education and lay off teachers.

I find it interesting that the Gazette chose to use a different photo of the judge this week.
Anyone who is paying attention has to notice the subtle way the paper editorializes a news story by it's choice of flattering or unflattering photo accompaniment.
For another example, whenever they use a photo of Scott Walker, they seem to purposely choose one that portrays him as slack-jawed, open-mouthed, and droopy-eyed.
Why don't they use any pictures of him where he looks more intelligent?
It is a complete mystery.

"I heard on the radio last weekend that she is involved with someone who works for the SEIU."

I heard at McDonald's last night that Walker eats babies.

"Judges have no business ruling on legislative issues."

Then who does?

This judge has no business ruling on this case. I heard on the radio last weekend that she is involved with someone who works for the SEIU. She has a conflict of interest. She should recuse herself. Judges have no business ruling on legislative issues.

fear: "My god how ignorant are you people?" Unfortunately some are VERY ignorant. They're even ignorant of the fact that they're ignorant. Sad but true.

Sorry MikeF. Didn't mean to be redundant. Well said.

totellthetruth,
By law, until the law is published under the direction of the Sec. of State it cannot be implemented. Therefore, both publication and implemenation were enjoined by the TRO. How much more clear can it get? It seems the only person that needs further clarification is our college drop out Governor Walker. Until the Supreme court has ruled, La Follette cannot publish the law. Until La Follette has published it, it cannot be implemented. It's really very simple.

"How can they claim it only pertained to LaFollette?"

Because they're fools.

"DemocRAT obstruction."

Constructive addition to the discussion?

"John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!" ....President Andrew Jackson

Lots more of the same garbage. Use of words like socialism when describing a judicial decision that you disagree with. If she had lifted the order you all would be praising her. Remember this "activist" liberal judge was a Tommy Thompson appointee. Most of this stuff is just hyperbole spat by folks who have a political ax to grind. Also , very sick of the absolute MISUSE of the word "socialism" by conservatives that are angry with the wrong folks. That seem to blame the economy on the wrong people being aware to the REALITY in this country and who caused the problems that destroyed our economy. BTW no matter who gets more "tax cuts" without a fair trade policy, this country will NOT recover economically, at least not the middle class. High unemployment has almost NOTHING to do with taxes and everything to do with BAD trade, unfair trade, dont buy it? Just research it then tell me whose fault it is. Think we are an over taxed nation? look into the TRILLIONS not billions, trillions of dollars in tax benefits to the MOST profitable corporations that have shifted their workforce to THIRD world countries. Think its bc of unions? Think again millions of NON-union jobs have been moved as well, so straw man arguements dont work here.
I havent even gotten into the investment banks that STOLE untold amounts of money from us! Not to mention the credit ratings agencies that were paid to rate investments they knew to be bad, along with CABINET officials that were former bank officials that helped with MASSIVE de-regulation of the banks that eventually led to the collapse of 2008. Bush's selection to be treasury secretary when a collapse was eminant? Hank Paulson, CEO of Goldman Sachs! And some of you believe that this economy is failing due to labor unions? My god how ignorant are you people? If you dont think these national issues affect the state, you are mistaken, period!

"I do, therefore, restrain and enjoin the further implementation of 2011 Wisconsin Act 10." -First sentence of second to last paragraph of TRO decision dated 3/18/2011
How much more clear did she need to be?
Also, the lawsuit named both Fitzgeralds, Joint Committee of Conference, the State Senate, State Assembly, and others. How can they claim it only pertained to LaFollette?

@garyprimer----Exactly right..

I have known for a long time the farmers and the teachers union control the state and local governments and now I know they control the justice system. Too bad. We are now headed toward socialism and the poor giving to the rich.

Spoiled children do not like to hear the word "no".

A quick glance I thought it was judge Judy.
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Is this judge a state employee? I'd think she should have no power whatsoever if so. A matter like this should be federal.

Apparently that language was either misunderstood or ignored, but what I said was the further implementation of (the law) was enjoined," Dane County Judge Maryann Sumi said during a hearing. "That is what I now want to make crystal clear."
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Translation: Scott Walker either knowingly broke the law or is a complete idiot. This judge knows exactly what she's doing, and she is brilliant. Not to mention she is actually following the law. What's great is now that all these Republicans are facing serious recall threats, Walker and the good old boys don't want to have to do the vote over again because it probably won't pass and he will lose all credibility and the ability to lead the state government or his party.

highly doubt that

she is a evil looking lib.

She really looks like a mad women who is not herself. Her decison making must follow her looks and is not in tune with the world.

im sure scotty knows the law a touch better than this 'judge'