Iriss -- the unions did not make it impossible for administrators to hold teachers accountable. Blanket, overreaching statements reflect how little you know.

i think teachers can and should be kept and paid on merit. It's not as black and white as we would like it to be, but there are some definite guidelines to look for. Monitor the classroom. that to me is the best way to grade a teacher. If the teacher has the students attention, and has them participating in the lesson, my guess is that the students are learning.

Just out of curiosity, did any of you posters have the privilege of having Frank Douglas for a teacher at Craig?

First, Iriss, Administration has the ability to change a teacher’s job assignment. They control who teaches English 9 v. English 11 or Art 1 vs. Photography.
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Second, just wondering how administration is going to evaluate equally its entire staff considering the cuts they just received. It seems unrealistic for the limited number of administrators to equally evaluate everyone.
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In the private sector, bonuses are often given on something easily measureable. The "boss" doesn't have to actually sit and evaluate each person. For some teachers, the district could use test results; the problem with the October date has already been discussed.
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However, even if we admit that WKCE works perfectly for teacher evaluation what about all the NON-WKCE subjects?
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Nobody is more frustrated with the "bad" teachers as the "good" teachers/fellow union members. The problem is this is not an easy topic to address.
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How do you evaluate? Administration (seems impossible), testing (not all subjects tested), student/parent evals (algebra II vs. Art...seems unfair), and grades (NOT a good idea)...
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I do agree the union could be more selective and more supportive when administration goes after a poor teacher. However, there is a process in place, it is a pain, but if it is "FOR THE KIDS" administration should be more willing to go through the process.
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I still believe this...my kids will have the same % of great teachers as I have had of great bosses, bank representatives, realtors, Dr's, dentists, etc... and the same % of bad ones in all those other fields.
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Too many people believe that education is the only field (or unions are the only place) where bad employees are employed. IT IS NOT! I have dealt with bad professionals in many different fields...the same % exist in each field.
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We are, understandably so, more defensive and aware of it when it impacts our children.
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Just remember, the VAST MAJORITY of teachers are GOOD to GREAT...a small minority are poor.

Once again, there are no "good" teachers and there are no "bad" teachers. There are only teachers with "x" number of years on the job, "x" number of continuing education credits, etc. That is how they have negotiated their contracts and what they are willing to take to the streets to protect. Those of you claim you had a good teacher or teachers are mistaken, they are all equal and it is unfair of you to claim that some might be better than others. They are a union and as such no one can be considered "better" or god forbid to have "accomplished more". Now, can someone find a group of "professionals" that is measured using the same standard? Don't ever confuse the two groups.

Holding teachers solely responsible for student progress has innate problems. Student success and progress is a function of many variables - only one of which is the quality of classroom instruction (I'll spare the list of other factors, which have been exhaustively discussed in the past.). I have no problem with the idea of demanding quality instruction from teachers, but measuring that through student progress is like measuring the effectiveness of a physician by counting the number of injuries and illnesses his or her patients experience.

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Measuring quality instruction is a labor-intensive process. Supervisors can't just walk in a classroom for 20 minutes per semester and make a determination. It takes dozens of hours of observation, discussion and synthesis to make an informed evaluation. But with boards cutting administration, just who is going to have the time to perform these evaluations?

Just wanted to add that SDJ is already blessed with many great teachers.

unclesmoothie, Agreed!
Multi-dimensional people make great teachers. They have depth of character, intellectual curiousity and a good work ethic. Great teachers don't have to have a multitude of props (e.g., movies, etc.) to dazzle their students and get them to learn. Great teachers don't have to have the latest and greatest classroom. THESE kinds of folks should be teaching our children and they should amply rewarded for it. Bring 'em on!

Teachers are held held accountable for student progress now. The problems with these ideas evolve around how to determine a fair measure of performance. WI administers the WKCE in October. Do those assessment results measure the current grade level teacher's performance or previous teachers'? If the student is stronger in math than language related portions of the test is that because the math teachers were better or was it the child's natural inclinations? If the district has changed books/resources during the previous five years, how do we measure the advantages or disadvantages of the prior versus current materials? Do the assessments being used actually measure what they claim to measure?

How do we differentiate evaluation for the teachers who have larger numbers of Sp Ed students, or ELL, or at risk? This will be a very difficult process to set up. I have worked in private industry where performance could be measured -- comparing the number of calls made, jobs secured, (data easy to collect) etc. However the complexities of the classroom require more subtle measurements. Do you measure a doctor by the number of patients seen? by the complexity of cases? by mortality rates? Do you compare a cardiologist to an oncologist or to a family practitioner?

Both WEAC and the NEA are on board for accountability systems; however, it is not a simple task of how many widgets met criteria for use versus how many failed performance testing. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

I had some great teachers when I went to school. Mr. Frank Douglas was at the top of that list. Were any of you posters in his World Geography classes? However, I also had some teachers that were worthless. Some teachers just showed movies and gave tests on the content. Sure, I learned some stuff from them. But not nearly the amount of information that teachers Like Frank Douglas and his hands on approach gave me.. He took a relatively bland subject and made his class the highlight of most students day. Teachers who put in no creative effort to teach students and just give assignment to pass the time should be replaced with teachers with greater motivation to teach. And no, orange, I am not a "flunkout". Whatever that made up word is supposed to mean.

I thought we were in the midst of a budget crisis. Doom and gloom. People laid off. Classes cut. Now we're looking for ways to spend more money based upon something very difficult to define and even more difficult to agree upon ? Sounds like a bunch of drama to divert our attention away from the real problems going on right now.

What's with the "Stop Scott Walker" ad at the end of every article.
Getting tired of looking at that banner...get rid of it!!!

If a teacher is going to be paid on merit there are a few other issues that we need to address. Who is going to hold the parents accountable? A teacher cannot control tardies and absences. If a parent does not take their student to school the student is not going to succeed. Also, what about poverty? If a student is homeless and has nothing to eat, the student is going to be more worried about getting their basic needs met before getting homework completed. Once again, this will lead to poor school performance. Believe it or not, we also have parents that do not put a value on education, so the students have picked up on the same attitude, so these students do not even try to succeed. Basing a teachers pay on student achievement and performance just does not make sense. There are too many factors that a teacher cannot control.

here's an idea ...let's reward the parents who actually spend time helping/supervising their children with their education.

Unclesmoothie...you sound like a flunkout. Administrators are the ones that evaluate teachers, they know NOTHING about that teachers field, how can they determine if they are teaching the right material for that class ?Administrators are nothing more than people who couldn't make it as teachers.

I was down at Riverside Park and saw a bunch of the teachers walking on the water. It was AMAZING! Isn't that enough for you guys? Why should they be judged by their job performance like all the rest of us poor slobs. They deserve special treatment and are above the scrutiny everyone else is subjected to.

The real world?

Education is not a business and the contrast between a for-profit business and education could not be starker.

What is the profit to be gained from a functional educational system? Hint: it's not money.

Welcome to the real world.

Those who suggest that all you have to do is your job, and all will be rosey, apparently have had the ideal boss. That is great for them. The reality is that many have to deal with the boss who is incompetent, unethical, jealous, afraid, intimidated--I could go on. You can do the best job in the world for that boss--it won't matter.

crunch_munch~ Please tell me you were educated by our Janesville school system! If you want to prove your point, first run spell check, then reread what you have written, and then,,,,,,,, Don't post it!!! I am on your side, but unless you went through the Janesville school system, I would be willing to release you from my side....... Sorry to be so harsh, but
PLEASE..........................

Parr agreed that fairness has to be a goal.= We all want the bonuses!
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Finding the money for incentive pay is an open question, Hesselbacher said.
“That’s down the road. We’ll look at that after we’ve studied the issue a bit.”
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= We need the teachers to do the best job possible, and prove that it is "all about the kids", we don't really know where we'll get the money if any of them show that they really care, so we'll cross that bridge if it actually happens!
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The new system would have to wait two years because the current contracts for teachers and other unionized employees are in effect until July 1, 2013.
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This gives them even more incentive to re-open their contracts and contribute to the tax system as they had claimed they wanted to in the beginning, re-open their contracts and this incentive will make up the difference, if they are indeed truly "all about the kids"!
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Teachers union President Dave Parr gave a cautious thumbs-up to teacher participation.

“It’s going to be affecting our jobs, so we would like to be involved,” Parr said.

The district has a teacher-evaluation system that relies heavily on a review of teaching materials and a principal’s classroom observations, Parr noted.

Parr said a key teacher concern is how the system would measure teachers-union members who do very different jobs.

“How would an English teacher be judged against a social studies teacher? How are they going to determine the factors to measure that?” Parr said.

The system also would have to accommodate teacher jobs such as counselor and librarian, Parr noted.

Parr agreed that fairness has to be a goal.
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So Parr wants to make sure that teachers that don't want to do that extra thing or go that extra mile for teaching our kids will still be compensated for doing nothing at all, simply because they have "seniority" will still be paid the most!
Give me a break, I am a product of the Janesville school system, K-12 and I am sure there are some of you who ask, what kind of education I got!?
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Frank, I knew I would have to address you in this one, you wrote; The newly created state law that strips public employee unions of the ability to bargain for working conditions will take effect once the contracts run out.
You make it sound like they are going to have to work 24-7 in sweat shops now!, obviously NOT the case.........

I'm sure they are.

I will never understand why so many are so hateful toward teachers. Merit, incentive, bonuses, profit sharing whatever you want to call them is a consistent part of most organization, including corporate America where the CEO's see HUGE bonuses every year. It may look different in the educational field because "profit" is construed differently, but people's raises in many sectors are connected to some form of merit or reward based on an annual evaluations. Certainly, this is much more difficult to define, but it's definitely not anti-corporate America to offer merit pay.

I have a real good idea. It is what most professional employers do. If a person performs their job well, they get to keep it. If they perform poorly, they are replaced by someone who really cares to do a good job. It is very simple, and you do not need a committee to decide this. Only unions keep the poor performers!

Should rewards be given only to the teachers of highest level- classes in which we find only high-performing students? Should we not reward those who struggle each day with difficult and "below average students"? Janesville is not Lake Wobegone and teachers cannot live on a steady diet of Powder Milk biscuits. What is a top-performing teacher, those who collect accolades from friendly administrators or those who are really doing the job every day? Good luck with this process, it's fraught with pitfalls.

Here's an idea- 'You do you job correctly and you keep your job.' That should be incentive enough!