2/13/2011

Cost Effective Way to Address the Downtown Two-way / One-way Issue

If the proposed arguments for going with the two way scenario for bringing consumers to the downtown area are:

1) Slowing the traffic down to support businesses in the downtown area.
2) Safer streets for car and pedestrian traffic.
Let's look at the most cost effective way to see if these things will even make a difference to the businesses downtown.

I would propose the following:
Keep Milwaukee Street one-way, but make it two lanes, instead of three, with a bike lane on each side as was done for the upper section of Milwaukee Street a few summers ago. This layout achieved the following:

1) Slowed traffic down.
2) Safer parking with the extra buffer of the bike lane.

These things accomplished the same goals but did not use objects such as people and cars, to slow traffic down, as it was presented in the study at the M & I Bank. This created a safety zone so people could get out of both sides of their car without worrying about a car coming up closer than a open car door distance. The added benefit; these bike lanes will give the downtown a more inviting appearance. The cost now has been drastically reduced from buying new lights, changing lights, changing signs and painting lanes to only repainting lanes.

Even spending the smallest amount of $150,000 of taxpayer money in these times of budget constraints is foolish, for something that does not give a guarantee of the ultimate goal of the DBA proposal - helping businesses downtown by bringing in customers and an unsubstantiated safety claim. I think there is a better and more cost effective way to see if this works to help businesses downtown; two lanes one-way with a bike lane on each side.

The problem with the downtown shopping isn't the street its the stores. We have some great stores downtown but not any one store that really pulls people in. Our downtown setting is ideal for a set up like state street but you need to get the high end stores to open up down there if you want more foot traffic. Leave the roads alone. Didn't take long for someone to take out the cross walk sign on the bike path crossing on East Milwaukee Street. That was a great investment! A couple stop signs would have been cheaper.

Ok here is a question. I was driving down Milwaukee St today. There was a large delivery truck parked in the street parking spot and covered part of the left lane, I have to move to the center lane to just get by it...just a bit further up the road the same thing but on the right side. So tell me how the heck are the businesses going to get deliveries if the road is narrowed down to one lane each direction with a center divider? I had a heck of a time as it was to try to drive with having only one full open lane. There is going to be a serious back up with the roads when the deliveries are made and block the entire lane so one cannot pass the trucks.
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Those who are in charge had better look at that before they go jumping head first into a disaterous street conversion.

Yada - I agree! I use that area twice a day (to and from work). When leaving work, I'm coming Deerfield/Kettering and turning right (on a green) to go to Milton. It seems like everyday someone is coming from Mulligans/Walgreens way, turning to their left to go towards Milton and, unless I want to get hit, I have to give them the right of way. By the way, they DO NOT have a green arrow.

Excellent point DOC on JPD enforcing the speed limits. I would agree with you on that point. I would also like the city to set up speed traps to catch the MANY red light runners on hwy 26 and Kettering Sreet. They need to stop the speeding cars and trucks that enter and leave the city of Janesville. EVERY SINGLE DAY someone runs that red light at a high rate of speed. I have to use that intersection several times per day and I always have to wait for ALL the cars going through the red light even though mine is green. If the city and JPD don't do something soon...someone is going to be killed. I have already read the statistics that it is a dangerous intersection, but never see the JPD watching the intersection.

If the city truly believes that cars are going through downtown at 40mph than they need to address the JPD for not enforcing speed limits right in their backyard. Sigma I don't know how you came up with them talking out HALF the stoplights since it was at Parker Pl. (one block east of Parker Dr.) since it's only a 2 block stretch it has a low volume of traffic, Franklin and W Milwaukee St, that no longer goes through since the YMCA expansion, and Academy St and W. Milw. I may add that stop signs are now in place on north South streets at those intersections so thats three sets of stoplights, out of how many? The intersections where they were removed did not need lights anymore. If it's changed to a two way street of course traffic would slow down, doesn't everyone at an accident, because if this happens, that will be what will happen and happen often, it will create a bottleneck of traffic coming down Milwaukee St in three lanes trying to all fit into one. This has B A D - I D E A written all over it. I truly hope the city manager considers what this would do in the long run. It will actually make business worse for the shop owners who aren't thinking of the ramifications of doing this.......

Dont forget to put a couple tunnels in there to make it extra safe.

BINGO Okiefed!!!! I was waiting for someone to reply to the roundabout way of things in this roundabout city!

Just put 4-way stops at every intersection! Janesvillians can't seem to have those figured out and that would slow traffic!

Why does the city need to spend money on this? Do they have a surplus? I agree with happycamper-enforce the speed limits and red lights.
Spend the money somewhere else COJ....

are the people headed into the Mark.

Few years back the kid was in drivers school above that place, and they sure seem to do a fine business on a one way street. Seems if you provide what people want they will go there regardless of the location. Look at Pine Tree Plaza, that whole area is a mess and people go there. (The people who designed that should be strung up).

OH FOR petes sake leave it the way it is ''what's the big deal oh ya lets spend money for sure''''''''''

fiery_4 - If you are overwhelmed with driving there... maybe for the safety of everyone else you should retire driving all together?... Just a thought.

ROUND-A-BOUTS WITH SPEED BUMPS!!!!

I have not used Milwaukee Rd in over 5 years due to the fact that its a one way and its next to impossible to switch lanes to get to where you need to go due to the high volume of traffic. I dont want people behind me to become irritated over the fact I need to slow down and figure out where I need to turn. I try to avoid all high volume traffic areas in Janesville whenever possible, I use backways: 51, Blackbridge, Cty J/S Wright Rd, etc.

The only people I have seen even rush across Milwaukee Street downtown, are the people headed into the Mark. This is a stupid proposal and should not even be considered, period!

Rusty- this has happened to me twice and I showed you PROOF of case file I am talking about.
Yes slow down if they are approaching. I am speaking of people not to the curb yet. RUNNING up to curb and DARTING into traffic and I have to SLAM on brakes to keep from hitting them with out even enough time to look in rear view to see if anybody behind me that will also rear end me. That is NOT how a cross walk works!
Main St by carousel and Milw Street by Steil law office. this is my pet peeve.
I watch for people in parking lots. It is usually hotter or colder than the inside of car and wave them by but this story is BS. Then the 3-4 of them by Steil were all giggling like school girls an thought it was funny that you just made about 5 cars all crash "because you have the right of way" Yes you do while IN the crosswalk. Not darting into when line of cars coming just at that corner!!!!!

Again SEE the case file I posted for you!

This thing about speeding makes me laugh. If I speed I don't speed right by my intended business and just say"oh, I speed by I guess I wont go in now"

Sigma say a guy going 40 ONCE. No different than people going 50 on Milton Av. Guess what- when they find the business that they like and is OPEN they stop going 50 and park and GO IN!

thirdeye- I see we were typing and thinking at the same time!!

frogger you have hit my pet peeve, that being drivers not stopping for pedestrians in the crosswalk. Your "slow down and don't hit them" statement shows what is wrong.

I see people do 40mph down there all the time, they slow down and almost stop for the next light. They removed half the stoplights so there is plenty of distance to get up to 40mph. Maybe if they didnt remove half the stop lights people would be slower.?? Even if it was 2-way... people wouldnt drive slower, if so they'd be stopping and waiting for a car to try and turn left. And if that happens it would lock up traffic to the point where people would avoid Milw. st. all together... City=Fail. Concerned about pedestrians getting hit? Put the stoplights back in that they took out.

By the way. Depending on the time of day, it is sometimes quicker to go to the Beloit Wal-Mart from the West side. It may even be a gas saver by the time you wade through Janesville lights and traffic.

greatidea
Feb 6, 2011 at 10:31 p.m.
Well said about the Internet. I know some people who did antique shows and it almost bankrupt them. Now on ebay. Ship it and done. Sell more and less hassle!

"West side patrons are tired of driving 20-30 minutes to get to Walmart." Yes, west side and south side residents are a long way from shopping. A "Midtown Mall" would attract a lot of shoppers, if it offered adequate shopping facilities. Maybe the city should contact a couple of developers about this.

I also find it hard that people are doing 40. The timing of the lights wont let it happen. If you go 40 you will be waiting at the next one. You cannot go 40 all the way through.

Again this will not make more business for down town unless THEY OPEN the businesses after 5 and on the weekends. HOW MANY articles will we have about this now???!!! Cant you find NEW stuff to fill the paper?

As a 'Westsider' I agree with Hornet's comment about west side patrons.

frogger
Dec 30, 2010 at 5:09 p.m.
Suggest removal told you peds do not have the right to RUN into your car.
We don't slam on the breaks to let you in if you are in the street
Dec 30 2010 public record
"Accidents

-- WASHINGTON STREET NORTH OF GREENVIEW TERRACE, at 8:05 a.m. Tuesday. Sarah L. Kopp, 34, of 1706 Mole Ave., Janesville, was driving south on Washington Street when a pedestrian, Robert F. Leitel, 63, ran into the driver’s side door of Kopp’s car. Leitel was treated and released at Mercy Hospital and Trauma Center, Janesville, and was cited for failure to yield."

I am always amazed by the story of the car/truck going 40 mph. The lights are coordinated for 25 mph. If you go that speed from the top of the Milwaukee Street hill to the 5 points you will hit every light. A car going 40 would have to stop at every light therefore it would be hard to get to 40 between lights unless you were gunning it like crazy.
This proposed change ranks up there with the barrier project of the late 80's-early 90's. Do you remember that fiasco?
The bottom line is it's just fine like it is. In my experience driving through town on Milwaukee Street at various times of day the traffic is generally 25-30 mph.
When I want to go faster I use Centerway, which zips along at that mythical 40 mph.

"JANESVILLE — The speed limit is 25 mph, but the driver was pushing 40 mph when he locked eyes with the ladies crossing three lanes of West Milwaukee Street on foot."

Yes I have seen the ladies dart out across the street into ONCOMING traffic (25) mpg and expect us to stop for them.
I finally found a case of ped getting ticket for hitting car. Will post it shortly.
Ped crossing doesn't mean dart into oncoming traffic. If you are IN the crosswalk it mean slow down and don't hit them!

"If you need to slow drivers down install speed bumps." Yes, that would surely slow down the traffic! LOL! You could probably see all those speed bumps on Google Earth too. And such a project would put Janesville in the Guinness Book of World Records: city with the longest continuous speed bumps, from Main Street to the Five Points.

Why wouldn't people go down there if it were two way? Because there's no draw, no pull.
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If "you" (whomever "you" are) want it to be a destination point, you've got to have what the patrons want.
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Right now, they want a quick shortcut from one side of town to the other. Either tear down the buildings (or rehab to another use) and put in a solid 4 lanes of "beltline", limited access road surface, or adapt it to a destination point...a real destination point.
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Put in businesses people NEED mid-town. Call it Mid-Towne and build it into a Janesville scale "Grand Avenue Mall", or leave it as a "beltline".
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Get the businesses/restaurants (including chains) into this game. Give them a reason to help with this vision.
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West side patrons are tired of driving 20-30 minutes to get to Walmart, Home Depot, Penneys, movies. With another 20-30 minutes, we can be in Madison and have some chain and unique destinations to visit. If you plan on incorporating the west side into the metro area, you need to provide for their business. Two way driving won't do it for me, without a pull to stop and shop.

The city can nickel and dime itself to death fiddling and fiddling with the traffic patterns in the old downtown area. Doesn't matter: traffic patterns are not going to attract residents from other parts of town. If traffic is significantly slowed down, through traffic will simply avoid Milwaukee Street altogether. However, a vibrant neighborhood business district could come together, if it serves the needs of people who work there and nearby residents.

Well said, doc!

Once someone running this city wants something... it doesnt matter how many pros and cons there are... they will spend/waste the money on it. Then 2 years later they will spend more money on fixing what they created...its how our city works.

I can imagine this slowing down the potential accidents and slowing traffic down, because NO ONE will go down there. Most people will choose to stay out of the downtown area and find an alternate route around it, just to stay out of that mess. How is that going to promote business. If no one is going through then no one will know. This whole thing just makes no sense. I do agree with adjusting the lights idea--that may just work, but that won't happen, because that would make sense and cost us what: the programmers salary (which we already pay anyway).

WE NEED A JACK MESSER ROUND-A-BOUT! MORE ROUND-A-BOUT's!!!! That'll slow 'em down! Then they can drive around 3 or 4 times checking out all the wonderful businesses Janesville has to offer downtown!!!! MORE ROUND A-BOUT's!!! Come on brain prodigy's at city hall...........It is simple!!!!!

Why dont they focus on the bad roads around Janesville first? Seems to be lots of rough roads. Or dont we care about the safety of the drivers if no businesses are near them roads?

All the lights are sync'd so you dont have to stop at all, or slow down, change that and it will be safer and all goals will be met..(duh..easy fix)... The people designing this should be more concerned about increasing the flow of traffic. NOT slowing it down... why would we make something worse? These roads are for us to drive on, not marketing ploys for businesses... And a 2-way street is more dangerous to cross than a one way...obviously...duh.. traffic only comes from one direction. Someone has it in their mind that this is going to be done so they are making up every excuse and reason to do so...."you cant fight city hall"... or have a word in on it.

I'd like them to slow the interstate down by where I work so we can be seen better.

If you need to slow drivers down install speed bumps.

When we have city officials working on this sort of crap - it is time to start shutting down jobs. They are looking for things to do to remain relevant after GM has gone and the semi traffic has all but stopped. When people hold positions they inevitably will try to find things to do to remain relevant. In good times that is a good thing. In bad times it can be absolutely destructive. Downsize now.

More off the wall ways to spend money the city or the tax payers don't have. Quit thinking about ways to spend and start thinking about ways to save. Do we really have to tell them that its safer when traffic is coming from one direction and not two? I notice the story doesn't say the women were in a cross walk. If the driver was doing 40 then he was in the wrong as much as pedestrians crossing where ever they feel like it. But as I am sure the ladies didn't have a radar on them, they may have just been trying to justify their own bad decisions.

POLICE enforcing speed, red lights and cross walks is the answer not the two way traffic! PAY ATTENTION!

The days of horse and buggies and casually driving down the streets to see what new business and bargains are there are bygone days. Today, you would think that modern store owners should know, if you do not have something memorable to buy in a store or a service to offer that people are aware of by the internet, paper advertising or by word of mouth, they will not just drive by slowly burning up more expensive gasoline. Especially in recessionary times. I do not think the local taxpayers should fund a token enhancement for people that are over weighted in their retirement portfolio with real estate that they only wish to sell with this [sic] enhancement. Perhaps that is all that is really being tried to marketed here. If you make a good product or give great service - "They will come." or Click click buy-buy downtown.

Another pipe-dream.

There will be more accidents with two-way traffic than with one, both because pedestrians and drivers from the area are used to looking one way, not two, and because one more direction of traffic adds one more level of complexity and timing to crossing the same width or roadway or turning at an intersection.

Why don't we go back to fantasizing about a children's museum, double-sheeter ice rink, and pedestrian tunnel under Milwaukee St.

I am with you doc, if they convert it I will change my route and I won't ever go downtown and will never drive by and remember the few stores that are down town. As it is now when I drive by I notice them and make a mental note to stop in soon, and usually do in a day or two...if they have normal decent hours and not just weird ones open at 11 or maybe noon if thay feel like it and they close at 5... you can't get customers to your business if you are not open more hours.
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Besides if the studies show that it is not going to significantly change saftey then leave it like it is and don't waste the money converting them. If it is all that important to the business let them pay for it, & pay to change it back when it fails.

Stop the insanity already! How can you think that changing it from one way to a two way would possibly make it safer for pedestrians? Right now when a J-Walker (because thats what your doing when you cross mid-block)comes out from behind a parked vehicle you have a lane to the left and or right of you to swerve into, and converting it to a two way street with only two lanes wouldn't give you anywhere to go, as in the case of the ladies crossing in this story. Changing downtown to two way streets won't magically make people shop downtown, they still need a reason, get creative is what my suggestion would be to downtown business owners! There is more than enough parking downtown now and changing traffic to go both ways will only create more problems than the city needs to deal with, not to mention that the money isn't there to do such a conversion at this time. The studies have been done over and over, now it's time to leave well enough alone. Changing the traffic from present will create route changes by many who take their morning and evening commutes through town and in the end will end up being less traffic for shop owners, if I don't drive past your business, chances are I don't even think about it. This change will only come back to bite you in the end, that much I can guarantee you. Get creative in your way of doing business and advertising, thats the only way things will change for you and your business.