Yeah badgerlvr that is a very powerful book. I used to be a pretty partisan person and was teetering when I picked that one up. Then I saw inside job and my un abated blind love for the rhetoric that is America , WAS OVER. Great book written by a man that was a part of the corruption.

Same reason why people should listen to Wendell potter when it comes to health care . He isnt some bleeding heart lib he is a man that worked on the corrupt side and can tell you exactly what they are doing to us and why.

I believe that whistleblowers are sometimes the best sources.

@mentor: Because I called you a dubm@$$ you call my argument silly and childish? How so? You said the contracts were rushed through and I simply asked you to retract that untruth. Please tell me in your simple little world how that is childish? If you can't understand that what you stated is factually incorrect then maybe you shouldn't be blogging!

Fear: I've read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man". That's one of the main reasons I'm so against "Right Wing Capitalism".

MrA, those are wise words and decades late. America, and some other Western nations, created overwhelming trade advantages for decades. It's one reason America prospered. The economic elitists created these advantages by warring and occupying for resources, by loaning money at interest rates that created debtor nations, by manipulating foreign governments and installing puppets and other clandestine operations that were just as nefarious. Now as economic elitists recognize our government as a cash cow that is drying up and they move on to other countries to rape, we are left with their debt...a debtor nation ourselves. Until we remove private money and parties from politics, and take back control of our monetary policy and debt from the private bankers, I hold out little hope for any significant reversal of course.

It's not protectionist to want a level playing field. For international companies to be able to sell their products in China without ridiculous tariffs they must manufacture them in China. China has never enforced trademark or copyright laws putting the US at a huge disadvantage. Germany has maintained their manufacturing base and is in better shape than most because of it.

Well, we're in complete agreement with the Walker/Fitzgerald regime. In all fairness, they make many Republicans look like progressives. Even Kasich in Ohio had the common sense to acknowledge his similar overstep and honorably back down from that position, albeit only after voters overwhelmingly rejected his policy. We unfortunately can't override Walker's policy but we can remove him.
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I deplore what the World Bank, IMF and other Western "aid" has done around the world. Particularly in Africa. I'll read the book.you suggested. Another book worth reading is William Easterley's The White Man's Burden.

fear said, "I don't think that there is a market to properly re-employ that many people, no matter what the techno movements might try to say."
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I agree. There isn't that market. And there won't be unless we start expanding the base of consumers for our products and services worldwide. China's unemployment rate has hovered around 4% for many years now. Virtually full employment and workers salaries increasing. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of potential consumers. We don't want to shut off those markets for our products and services with isolationist policies that will surely be met with reciprocal trade restrictions.

My statement about redressing grievances was more targeted at our state government Poobah, not federal. That being said , I enjoyed the video, very powerful and not surprising to me. As you should know by now I am no partisan. I just see the hard rhetoric of "drum pounding hippies", "dirty , lazy unionistas" , coming from one side of the aisle. Many times from those with zero points to be made toward the actual debate. While I try to ignore it, it becomes difficult to ignore such rampant ignorance.

The very ignorance that is responsible for the political climate that we as a nation/state/city suffer from. People standing by a letter, or a predetermined ideology. Not based on whats right, yet based on what the groupthink tells you to believe. The very same groupthink that directs so many toward certain media sources to gain knowledge about issues that actually affect you and I. These are the people that believed the story that we would be greeted by parades of flowers and greeted as liberators in the mideast. The same folks that believe that we are fighting wars against terrorism and drugs, as if they were real tangible opponents, instead of fear based campaigns that have cost this nation TRILLIONS of wasted tax dollars.

When I was talking about the "right wingers" passing legislation to opress, it was more the rule changes passed by the state legislature, not the fed. I am well aware of the innocent lives that this nation has affected or even killed in the name of "freedom" , many in this world see the USA as the villain, and I can certainly see why.
To your investment option, I want investment to be here, OUR education system, our infrastructure, FIRST. If you want a great inside look at the world bank and what we have done to 3rd world countries all over the planet. One of my all time favorites. "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins. True story written by an insider.

Dead on Fear. If you think your safe because you sit behind a desk think again. If your job is done from a computer it can be done by someone in India for a fraction of the cost. Manufacturing was just the first wave.

fear, addressing your concern about the apparent contradiction in my rising tide comment. I see the wealthiest nations losing some jobs or having a trade deficit to/with the poorest nations, while assuring their human rights will be honored, as an investment. Do I think there are more efficient ways of accomplishing this? Yes. But I don't see any willingness to redistribute wealth and income through any other methods. I think of it as an investment that will be paid back by having more robust trading partners in the future. China, for instance, is becoming more and more a consumer nation. Imagine if African countries were able to significantly increase consumption of American products and services. I see the dip in employment and trade deficits as short term issues that we need to be able to finance, but only if this is a policy developed and executed by all of the wealthiest nations, not just America. We need to invest in poor nations, instead of letting that wealth continue to accumulate with the wealthiest people in the world. And I am NOT suggesting anything at all similar to IMF/World Bank loans to poor countries.

fear said, "They have to do it, and in many cases oppressive regimes don't allow their people to think and speak freely, allow them to organize to redress grievances. These right wingers that continue to wrap themselves in the constitution should embrace these displays of freedom, and yet they ridicule and would pass legislation making it more difficult for people to speak and demonstrate freely."
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TOK6dp6W...
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I really hope you take seven minutes and watch this video with an open mind as it draws a vivid contrast between our hypocritical leader's words and actions. It's not just the right wingers we need to be concerned with. It's most of them -- right, middle and left. Once they get absorbed into the political machine, there's little that differentiates Democrat from Republican.

Raise the tides of other nations while lowering our own? I don't understand the thinking?
I look at employment numbers and I ask you Poobah how do we re employ 40-50 year olds that are good at working hard and making a decent living? Try to remember that not everyone is built for a collegiate education. In today's economy unless you have that education your chances of making a decent living are almost non existent. Then I ask what about the 20-30 million jobs that are no longer around? I don't think that there is a market to properly re-employ that many people, no matter what the techno movements might try to say.

I don't think there's much space at all between our positions on this fear. I do think our trade agreements have helped, and are helping, other nations to advance their standard of living. But this is only because the trade agreements do little, if anything, to correct the balance of trade deficits that America has with other nations and surely have resulted in a loss of countless jobs in America. In fact, our trade agreements have increased many of our trade deficits. Trade policies are not the most effective or preferable way to enact human rights across the world, that's for sure. And there is absolutely no way that America alone can do this. But I don't see world leaders willing to seriously discuss the inequitable distribution of wealth and income within their respective countries - most politicians, including our own Democrat and Republican leaders, represent the interests of economic elitists. So, as I see it, trade policies are one of the few, albeit least effective, tools we have to help improve the fulfillment of human rights in other countries. Believe me, the fact that other nations' standard's of living may be increasing is by no means by design. It's just an inadvertent by-product of international economic elitism -- exploitation of cheaper labor and lower resource costs by the economic elitists.
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It's a sad commentary on the state of affairs in this world. That said, I really believe that a rising tide lifts all boats and I think if we had healthy, educated, productive citizens in all corners of the world, the world would be a much better place for all of us.

Poobah I am absolutely with you on human rights. The unfortunate thing is that free-trade does little or nothing to promote labor laws in China,Vietnam, Thailand, Mexico and all of the other third world countries that have harbored our manufacturing base.
IMHO, the only service these deals have served is to allow large corporations to save on labor, pay management more, and avoid paying a litany of taxes. Which just creates more defecit, more debt, more problems for middle class working families in THIS country. I am all for human rights, but America can not force human rights, labor laws, environmental restriction on the rest of the world. They have to do it, and in many cases oppressive regimes don't allow their people to think and speak freely, allow them to organize to redress grievances. These right wingers that continue to wrap themselves in the constitution should embrace these displays of freedom, and yet they ridicule and would pass legislation making it more difficult for people to speak and demonstrate freely.
What scares me is the despair in this nation will continue to grow and we will no longer be that beacon of hope to those oppressed peoples in the world, and then we will become the impoverished nation that we all loathe so much. If free trade actually promoted human rights and had a tangible effect on the future of them I could look at them as something to be happy about. But when they are directly responsible for the unemployment of tens of millions of people/families in this nation, then IMO its time to isolate and clean up our house before we can save the rest of the world.
Not being condescending here at all, as a matter of a fact I have a great deal of respect for your opinion, I just think sometimes we need to take care of our nation first, because quite frankly I live here with MY family.

I'll take that as "no", shrek...

Isolationist trade policies may help to stabilize the unemployment issue in the near term in America (or any other country that took such a stance). But this doesn't address what to me is the real issue - basic human rights for every man, woman and child on Earth.
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We currently have two problems with inequitable wealth and income distribution. One is the inequality between citizens of a given country (America as an example). The other is the inequality between countries (Norway and Zimbabwe as an example.) I think we are witnessing the beginning of movements to develop a more equitable distribution of income and wealth, albeit on a nation-by-nation basis. While I fully support most of the tenets of more equitable distribution of income and wealth, it bothers me that this is only considered on a nation-by-nation basis. My single most critical complaint of the Occupy movements is that they are talking only about the inequality that exists in the country of occupation and not between all peoples of the world. It is as selfish of a perspective of the problem as isolationism. I believe we need equitable wealth and income distribution across all geopolitical borders. When I say equitable distribution, I mean a distribution that, at a minimum, assures that basic human rights are enjoyed by every human being on Earth.
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The United States is a signatory to the United Declaration of Human Rights. Article 25(1) states that "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_D...
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The declaration applies to every human on Earth. I find it difficult to oppose policies, such as trade agreements, that help in achieving the most basic of human rights in other nations. One may argue that we have people in this country that do not have the most basic human rights as delineated in the declaration and this is very true. This is where policies to create a more equitable distribution of wealth and income within our borders is necessary so we can assure those basic human rights for every citizen.
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In short, I believe in social justice. If we truly respect these human rights, and we must because we are a signatory to them, then we need to value those human rights. The cost of that value is making sure every human being on this Earth receives those basic rights. If that means we have to give up some of our income and wealth, so be it. We could go to bed at night knowing we prevented 21,000 children under the age of 5 from having died a preventable death that day because we didn't value their most basic human rights enough to provide them with food, medicine and shelter.

Mentor I have not sent you any private messages , and who cares who did, stop complaining. You are calling others names just the same.""ou argue like you're in grade school and you expect me to take you
seriously?"" and that is a mature way to talk?

You are the one that said""Shouldn'ta rushed the contract through to avoid the new collective bargaining limits. What did they learn from this? Nothing. They'll just blame Walker."" That is YOUR silly false comment. Make a ridiculous statement like that and be called out, because its not the truth. So since you say you are not a talk radio listener , where did you get it? Its been repeated OVER and OVER on these blogs by folks that have repeated that very piece of false rhetoric. So dont tell lies unless you are ready to be called out. Have a discussion on what you believe to be the best thing, not on a false claim. Time to grow up.

Answer the question Vato- WHo does free trade help in America? Simple question.

I can show you that over 25 million jobs have disappeared since Clinton signed NAFTA in 1994. Are you replacing those with IT jobs? NO!!

""Manufacturing is dead! Information technology is taking over, we want things faster and up to cutting edge standards, we need technology savvy workers not steel workers or auto workers, those days are gone.""

WRONG!! Absolutely wrong. As long as there are material needs we will have to manufacture them. As a self taught IT guy I will tell you technology is NOT for everyone, and this nation was BUILT on a hard working blue collar workforce. The only reason you think manufacturing is dead , is because China is doing it all now for pennies on the dollar. The problem is that the GLOBAL economy that you treasure is DRIVEN by the American CONSUMER, without an American MIDDLE class spending money on goods the world suffers, period. Its a demand crisis because when people cannot make a decent wage they only afford essentials, and not consumer goods.

Manufacturing is NOT dead that is an insanely ignornt statement. I also would like you to tell the 45-60 year old people laid off that put in 20-30 years of blood , sweat , and tears into making a life for themselves, and you have the nerve to call them lazy? You seriously need to stop making such rash conclusions from your soap box about what what teachers "SHOULD" do and what workers "SHOULD" do. Maybe try thinking about what made America great and getting us back to that.
Dont need steel workers? Really who is going to make bridge material? Huh, guess your ASSumption doesn't exactly jive does it.
I know that at times I can seem like a know it all , admittedly, but to make such comments as "We are a tecnology based society? Tell that to the technicians and programmers losing their jobs to underpaid Indian workers! Outsourcing is happening in all professions, not just manufacturing. It won't be long until you will be telling us that IT is dead because we can pay foriegners 1/3 or less to again sell out Americans. This is the classic example of a slippery slope.
I say it again if you are pro-free-trade then you are anti-american, PERIOD!! You value Chinese made goods in a communist country to support the investor class in this country, and you people wonder why the 99ers are out there?
Vato , you and others can keep setting up straw men all you like, the fact is that these movements and protesters are growing for a reason, and its not because they think its fun to protest. Its because the ruling class has sold out the working class, and the many will soon outweight the few. I believe a microchosm of that is happening tright here in Wisconsin, i.e.. the recalls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoTQAdomY...

@MOC0428 - And you're missing the point. You argue like you're in grade school and you expect me to take you seriously? What's next? Call me another name? Threaten to tell on me? Stomp your foot and yell? Accept the consequences and understand that regardless of whether you think I'm wrong or right, you've no standing to compel me to do anything.

" But altering laws to give tax breaks to companies, literally rewarding themfor running out on American workers?"

That I don't agree with. That is an ethical issue.

Another issue fear is education. Our country is not poised to meet the challenges of the future. Manufacturing is dead! Information technology is taking over, we want things faster and up to cutting edge standards, we need technology savvy workers not steel workers or auto workers, those days are gone. There are many positions that cannot be filled because of technical skills, America dies not want to change. They think GM is coming back to Janesvilke.

We are not meeting this market force with our current education model.

You cant force anyone to do anything. But altering laws to give tax breaks to companies, literally rewarding themfor running out on American workers? THese are the policies that have created high unemployment, these are the policies responsible for exploding defecit, not tax breaks for high income earners. By allowing companies to manufacture anywhere regardless of labor/environmental laws and not pay ANYTHING (tariffs) to bring things back here? Its called a level playing field Vato, one which we cannot compete on unless we repeal labor laws, including minimum wage and child labor laws. I know that is the raoad that many would say we should follow I just happen to think that there is something wrong with forcing 12-14 year olds or anyone for that matter being paid less than a dollar an hour and working in some cases 18 hours a day? It is called the race to the bottom, and it does NOT benefit America as a nation, and unfortunately helps the rhetoric of the 99% not the one.

Faulty logic? How does free trade benefit this nation and the middle class here? Tell me, because I fail to see it? With out a vibrant good wage earning middle class this country will NEVER again rise to its former status. For those that seem to label everything and evryone in the world a socialist/communist they certainly have no problems with the models in a communist country(China), kind of funny if you ask me.
Free trade benefits no one except stock holders and management, those are not the ingredients with what made this nation great.
You can say whatever you like about false logic and isolatiuonism, but I want MY nation to succeed FIRST, whatever happened to NATIONALISM? Dead!

i think they should force china to value their currency correctly. (both parties have not done this)

" If you support free-trade you are anti-american middle class. "

Fear

Faulty logic.

Many US employees are employed because of free trade with other countries.

It is a global economy, like it or not. You can't control that.

Manufacturing is dead because we can't afford high priced products produced by high wages and benefit packages. You can't force people to buy American anymore. People are broke these days. Quit being an isolationist.

Just so we are clear I am opposed to obamacare because:
""CBO and JCT estimate that by 2019, the two pieces of legislation combined will reduce the number of nonelderly people who are uninsured by about 32 million, leaving about 23 million nonelderly residents uninsured""

32 million governemnt mandated new customers for the most immoral, corrupt industry on Earth? No thanks! Until we get a single payer system this will never be fixed, and will continue to get more and more costly.

Shrek- Since you use the CBO as a source to lean on, does that mean you support "Obamacare"?
http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collecti...

""On March 20, 2010, CBO released its final cost estimate for the reconciliation act, which encompassed the effects of both pieces of legislation. Table 1 (on page 5) provides a broad summary and Table 2 offers a detailed breakdown of the budgetary effects of the two pieces of legislation. CBO and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimate that enacting both pieces of legislation will produce a net reduction in federal deficits of $143 billion over the 2010-2019 period. About $124 billion of that savings stems from provisions dealing with health care and federal revenues; the other $19 billion results from the education provisions. Those figures do not include potential costs that would be funded through future appropriations""

Shrek- The tax argument is not a basis of argument here for me. Raising the taxes on the upper 1% is not a solution. The destruction of the free-trade deals that have decimated the 99% and their ability to make a decent wage to INCREASE the tax base is the solution. And by the way- I REFUSE to accept that "thats just the way it is", who says so? The corporate lobbyists that bought these deals? Right now we have the largest wage desparity in 80 years in this country, THAT is the problem!! If you support free-trade you are anti-american middle class. That is the defecit problem, the more quickly the middle class disappears, the more quickly we see defecits balloon.
Fact of the matter is that special interests own this country, not the people, as was intended by the founders. Democracy is part of the root word Demos- meaning people. This nation is a plutocratic oligarchy, period.

Oh ya
How is it that there is a 20-30 million dollar checking account when we are in such fiscal "dire straits"?

JanesvilleCAN,
The CBO is a good place to start. How about some facts for your counterargument?

Sorry Poobah, it was madcitydad. Not many on these blogs that make sense so I just assumed it was you.
Maybe we could gett some of these tax hawks to complain to the district for banking so much of their money in a checking account while dragging the teachers and the ditrict through the mud, and laying off/calling back teachers while claiming such huge defecits. Really funny how that goes so ignored.That so many of you are so eager to jump on the most important public servants in our community, instead of asking the real questions that should be answered.

WHAT is the fund 10 balance?
How was the balance built?
Why is it not used to plug these budget holes?
WHy do the projected defecits never amount to what they are projected to be?

Look you are making yourselves look silly by repeating the "rushing the contracts through" it simply isnt true, okay? The school board has been irresponsible on the tax levy in Janesville for a decade. I know that you conservatives HATE anything that talks about raising the levy, but the facts are that costs go up, wages SHOULD go up, so the method to pay for it needs to rise, sorry. The board has not raised the levy properly for 10 years costing the district MILLIONS in state matching funds, which CERTAINLY could soften any blow to defecits in the district, and any levy raises right now.
Funny I hear "the left" this and that from people that don't want to talk about real numbers? And yet NONE of you address the elephant in the room, FUND 10 BALANCE!! Do you know how it is that a district that has been so irresponsible with the levy for 10 years has a 30 million dollar "checking account"? Those are tax dollars too.I also know that if the district was more straight forward about that money the teachers would certainly be more willing to talk contract concessions. The fact of the matter is that money has been banked on savings the district has enjoyed based on the current health insurance program that Janesville enjoys!! The problemn is that the board has given the JEA no reason to trust them. And why would they?

Mentor: Once again missing the point. You made a comment which was quoted by Fearandrhetoric about rushing the contract through. All we're saying is that you are spewing garbage and untruths. Retract what you said as is it is untrue.

Shrek, how's about some sources for your...um..."numbers"?

A serious lack of logic from the liberals here. Quit being idiots and actually look at the state and federal budgets and see where all the money is going. Then look at how much money all of the 1% make in total and you will see that even if we taxed them 100%, there would still not be enough money to pay for entitlements. What a bunch of ignorant tools you are.

I want what is BEST for my kids. That is why I want the best of the best to teach them in school. How can we expect to have great teachers in public schools when we don't want to pay them? I thought we were supposed to have equality in this country? Equal opportunity and education? An equal chance for everyone? No, I guess poor kids are supposed to clean the toilets and mop the floors instead of learn art or music like the rich kids. America. I want what is BEST for my country, and attacking public workers ain't gonna get it.

Mentor, if you walk like a duck and quack like a duck...

@fear - and look, you're there blaming Walker. So how wrong was I? Rather than taking responsibility and placing blame on the unsustainable budgets, you make some false assumptions of your own (I don't listen to talk radio) in an attempt to link me with my "cohorts". But I'll say this to again to you now. This may be how you and your cohorts have learned to argue, but it cheapens your arguments when you throw in those attempted cutting remarks at the end like "grow up." What's next? Calling me dumb-head and poopypants? Your comment to me made no points, showed no evidence, made those false assumptions I mentioned earlier, and insinuated that I was immature. Yeah, that's a good argument there, that was.

fear said, "It was more like poobah explained, It was meant for FMLA leave not to be used for the flu."
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fear, thanks for trying to give me credit for that, but I don't deserve it. I'm not sure who made the comment you are referring to.

language from the contract:""Leave: Employees are guaranteed 90 income protection days every year for use as paid sick time and disability leave. They also receive three days paid funeral leave for the deaths of immediate family, up to three days of paid funeral leave for other close relatives subject to permission and one day of paid funeral leave for more distant relatives. Up to three days of paid leave are allowed for the marriage or graduation of an immediate family member. Unlimited emergency leave for serious illness of immediate family members may be granted under permission from the superintendent.
""

Now does that mean teachers are missing half of the days a year? NO! It was more like poobah explained, It was meant for FMLA leave not to be used for the flu. BTW there are ZERO examples of this happening. This was obviously a mistake in the language of the contract. It was NEVER , meant to be sick time. It was meant to be used as FMLA and disability pay , that being said they changed the language to represent what the rest of the districts in the state provide.

Shrek- still standing by your "Inever said that" line? Or did you get caught copying and pasting something you did not read, Either way making yourself look silly is priceless to me. But hey you know the old addage, deny,deny,deny.Thank you!:)

Mentor- Ican show you a very weak false argument made by you-""Shouldn'ta rushed the contract through to avoid the new collective bargaining limits. What did they learn from this? Nothing. They'll just blame Walker.""
Again some research on the actual process here in Janeville , instead of repeating some rhetoric that you heard on a talk show might help you out. Unfortunately many of your cohorts have been parroting the same line of BS. I think it really just makes you look uninformed and reaching to support a LETTER and not a true argument. Grow up and read up.

@MOC0428 - Nonsense would be calling these comments blogs. Then it would be followed by calling someone a dumb*** and saying that name wasn't, "politically correct". Your attitude shows the weakness of your arguments. You wouldn't be nearly as combative if you felt more secure in your position. To say otherwise would merely be another lie.

I wouldn't fret too much about teacher pay or benefits when the US has bigger issues to worry about like wasting $60 billion on corruption in Iraq.

See link below

Many of our classes are getting bigger and bigger yet We keep cutting staff and running out of money.

What does that say about our prorities for education?

http://www.stripes.com/news/report-u-s-w...

Shrek.......Shrek.......Anyone......Shrek?

I just realized why I always wanted the teachers to tell the school board no. It is because of people like Shrek and Mentor. I'd rather see them pay the taxes just to make myself feel better...I'm sure that is wrong on many levels but it is their ignorance the fuels me.

To all groups that have been approached by the BOE stand fast! TRUST is significant, you should all tell them that you will move on insurance if all 3 negotiated contracts are provided exactly the same health insurance as the administration is provided. This is not a shortfall caused by you 3 groups. Use the FUND 10 and tax!

@mentor: I'm not trying to scare you as nothing was threatened. I simply called you a very ignorant person in terms that weren't as politically correct as this. You, however are spitting out non-sense in your blogs. The contracts were settled well before Walker took office so to say otherwise is....well, DUMB. Quit spewing forth garbage and rhetoric and bring facts. I know quite a few teachers that were fine with paying into their pension and healthcare costs but were more upset at how it all went down. That can be argued all day long without anyone being right but your misstating of the contract and when Walker took office cannot be debated...you are wrong.

Shrek said:

You cannot deny:
Teachers have better than average pay (Answer: not compared to any colleged educated worker in the private sector.)
Teachers have better than average insurance (Answer: not necessarily you bonehead, all plans vary, but those now not under a collective bargaining agreement pay no less than 12.4% of insurance premium.)
Teachers have better than average pensions (Answer: that is because their pay sucks compared to their private sector contemporaries and they negotiated membership to the Wisconsin Retirement System is the best run retirement fund in the nation, and starting 1/1/12 those not under a collective bargaining agreement pay for half of their retirement contribution.)
Teachers work fewer hours than average (Answer : you never taught so shut your pie hole.)
Teachers have better than average job security (Answer: not any more.)
*
Obviously you are a fictional charater (Shrek) living in a fantasy land who knows nothing about reality and post stupid comments as if they were true and factual.

Madcitydad......Correct-that contract ended 5 months ago. Without Walker's legislation highlighting some of the abuses that were taking place, I really believe that contracts like those in Oshkosh would be allowed to continue.......

Shrek, your post on December 7, 2011 at 11:33 a.m. clearly stated the excessive sick days (60+ in many districts) that others have referenced. To call their citations of your remarks a lie or distortion of the "facts" as you posted is disingenuous.
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If your defense is that you did not say these things but had copied and pasted the information from another source, then your problem is that you never cited your source -- making it appear to be your own work. Either way, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

916, those 90 days in Oshkosh were under an old contract, which is no longer in effect. Also they weren't paid days;it was a policy similar to FMLA.

""Excessive sick days (60+ in many districts) that can be used at time of retirement instead of what they were intended for."" those are YOUr woeds , maybe you should think before you ramble.

Shrek - calling out "fear" for lying and distorting facts is really the pot calling the kettle black. I specifically pointed out several of the half-truths and outright distortions you posted earlier. I shall continue below:

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Teachers make better than average salary: Half-truth. The median teacher salary is above the state median income...that much is true. Compared to similarly educated, licensed college graduates, however, teachers are very much on the low end of the pay scale.

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Teachers have better than average insurance. Perhaps true in the past, but not any more. They are pretty average for employer-provided insurance...unless you count all the uninsured that Gov. Walker is kicking out of Badger Care. You also ignore the fact that for 14 years under QEO teachers gave up salary increases to keep their insurance good while others took insurance cuts for salary increases. Gov. Walker eliminated those years of concessions with the stroke of a pen.

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Teachers have better than average pensions. Teachers have the same state pension as all other state workers. It is a good pension - something that the State has been proud of for years because of sound fiscal management. Again - teachers took smaller pay raises over the years to keep contributions rolling in. Now teachers pay 50% of all pension deposits. If they are paying it in, they deserve to get it out. Most employers have some matching for a 401k- this is the public-employee version. No employer match for personal retirement for teachers.

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Fewer hours - already rebutted nicely. Most teachers do 1800-2100 hours.
Job security? Not any more. They did have tenure and seniority rights, but see my previous post as to why ineffective teachers were not let go often in the past. Now there is no job security at all. Guess that's another few hundred people who will be hesitant to buy homes in the area....

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So what is your response? Your little sound bites are becoming tiring. Whole truths trump half-truths, and those who care to look at the whole picture of the last 18 years for teachers know that the QEO law has had schools, and teachers, under state-imposed cost controls since 1994. Teachers and schools are not the ones that are ruining our economy.

@MOC0428 - Personal insults and private emails aren't going to scare me. Those tactics cheapen your arguments. And yeah, I did know teachers who were complaining about paying more for their health care and pensions and would have complained regardless of how Walker did it.

Shrek said: "Never did I say 60 sick days per year. Fear lies and distorts the facts all the time to make up their point. You really cant believe much of what he/she says."
***
You cannot deny:
Teachers have better than average pay
-- Define average pay, please
Teachers have better than average insurance
--Please tell us what average is
Teachers have better than average pensions
--Define average, I don't get a pension!!
Teachers work fewer hours than average
--They are scheduled to work less hours but most put in quite a few more. The school year is 180 days or 1440 hours per school year. Teachers start early, end later and work extra hours during the school year. I know for a fact my wife puts in more than 1800 a year. That is only 280 hours short of my job (35 days). She also spends our own money on things for kids and the classroom.
Teachers have better than average job security
--What is better than average job security?

****
"Simply put, teachers have a very good deal. It is time to quit whining like babies and deal with the fact that the rest of us are done footing the entire bill for it."

*************
Wow a blog based solely on one persons point of view. If you compare a teacher to a convenience store worker yes, they do have a great job. If you compare a teacher to a RN, most Engineers, Doctors, Dentists, GM Line Workers (had to put this one in), then no they do not have a better job.

All of your statements can be looked at differently depending on your job or income level. You merely state opinions not facts.

*

You live in a society with public education so the bill will always be footed by the tax payer, nothing new Einstein. The teachers I know really weren't complaining about paying into their insurance or pensions. They knew everyone else's costs went up and pretty much expected theirs to as well. The largest gripe is how Walker did it. He was faced with a crappy situation left by Doyle that needed to be dealt with. The means he used to fix the issue could have been better. I still don't understand how taking away the collective bargaining will save much and I've yet to hear a good explanation of how it will.

I believe it was Oshkosh where the unions had negotiated for 90 sick days. An anomaly among the school districts yes, but definitely a situation where the union once again got way out of line and hit community that supports it with an extremely excessive burden.......
www.620wtmj.com/blogs/charliesykes/11832...

Never did I say 60 sick days per year. Fear lies and distorts the facts all the time to make up their point. You really cant believe much of what he/she says.
***
You cannot deny:

Teachers have better than average pay
Teachers have better than average insurance
Teachers have better than average pensions
Teachers work fewer hours than average
Teachers have better than average job security
****
Simply put, teachers have a very good deal. It is time to quit whining like babies and deal with the fact that the rest of us are done footing the entire bill for it.

http://gazettextra.com/news/2010/sep/22/...

Looks like they negotiated to me! Again what are you talking about?
As a business owner would you allow your customers to "re-negotiate a contract" due to tough times? Doubtful.

http://gazettextra.com/news/2010/sep/11/...

win win then and now because Walker has farted up the state its not?
http://gazettextra.com/weblogs/latest-ne...

Try to research THIS community before shooting off at the mouth, K?Or any contract/community before making things up.

OMG, I totally misread Shrek's post. How did I get it so twisted?

EVERY time there is a contract negotiated , it is between the SCHOOL BOARD and the JEA, so what are you talking about? Where do you think these contracts come from, thin air? The last JEA contract that you all seem so intent on them opening took OVER A YEAR to negotiate. A YEAR!! So tell me again what you THINK you know based on some mythical contracts that allow a teacher 60 sick days a year. Just because you made it up doesn't make it true. You can't even link a district website anywhere that allows this, just baseless false rhetoric, GARBAGE.

""Many of you have questioned where I get my information. I get it from the teachers contracts, so it is true. On the other hand, many of you are using lies and distortions to keep the focus from the truth. Teachers have had a good deal for years and they still have a good deal, except they have to pay a small percentage for their benefits."" what contracts shrek give teachers 60 sick days? Please name ONE district so those of us that are interested can look it up, otherwise you are lying. Because there are NONE out there or you could link your rhetoric.

I would be willing to bet that there isnt a schhool dostrict on PLANET EARTH that allows its teachers 60 paid sick days a year, YOUR numbers not mine. Don't just make up numbers and talk about what the "truth is" gotta do better than that, sorry.

Shrek, very well stated. It gets old watching misguided post after post appear on here. Finally, someone who knows what they're talking about!

walker & his people only want you to say yes master what can I do for you next

Shrek, self serving interests of...... teachers...I got nothing.... wow...

School boards have tried to negotiate with the teachers union for years, the teachers union REFUSED because they had the upper hand. Now it is time to pay the piper for their shortsightedness.
***
Many of you have questioned where I get my information. I get it from the teachers contracts, so it is true. On the other hand, many of you are using lies and distortions to keep the focus from the truth. Teachers have had a good deal for years and they still have a good deal, except they have to pay a small percentage for their benefits.
***
This is not teacher bashing, it is reigning in the costs that have been allowed to get out of control due to previous state administrations that believed in kicking the can down the road in order to protect their self serving interests.

"Yes vato 2 personal days and 4 family leave days that ARE NOT carried over that are to be used for sick children"

Yes, emergency days are not carried over.

"Grown adult people don't go after the jugular first and then let's work together. That's the 800 lb. gorilla."

I can live with this comment you kill me.

Why are you penny pinching taxpayers not screaming from the mountain tops of the 20-30 million in a "district checking account" called fund 10 balance. The district has been banking savings on the teachers health insurance for over a decade and now wants to whine about opening a contract?
How can a district constantly be plugging budget holes with teacher layoffs and/or tax increases when there is this tremendous fund balance?
To Frank Schultz and anyone else who has a more specific description, please help us to understand why this shell game is continuing to be played? Why the board is allowed to continue to drag the teachers through the PR mud like this? I have a pretty good idea of how the district created this fund 10 balance, but have yet to get any really specific answers from anyone. To my understanding it is a fund that has been built up over the course of the years on over budgeting for teachers health insurance, and as I have been told by various sources that the district takes "holidays" during the year and place that money all in a "checking account" or balance that when its all said and done is in the neighborhood of 30 million dollars.
If I am wrong tell me how a district that ALWAYS(as long as I have lived here,10 yrs) claimed to be in the red. Could possibly hold that much money in any kind of "checking account". I am aware that the district uses this money to pay expenidtures during theyear , but the fund always seems to be at least 20 million and I know hovers around 30 million. How could that be possible for a district that always seems to claim financial worry, year after year?
Thanks for any and all responses.

Vatoloco, when Walker ended collective bargaining rights he killed off any chance to negotiate, communicate, compromise or to form solutions together. Grown adult people don't go after the jugular first and then let's work together. That's the 800 lb. gorilla.
*
Who doesn't see a cut in pay and benefits as an assault?
*
"We need grown men and women talking these things out and stop with the power playing, it is hurting our future." ------------- This is precisely why collective bargaining should have never been touched. It was never the problem. The absence of grown men and women was the problem. When someone is using an ideological calculator to balance the budget, facts and reasoning have no place.

Yes vato 2 personal days and 4 family leave days that ARE NOT carried over that are to be used for sick children. Anyone who believes that school districts give out 60 sick days a year is just full of it or believing false info.
stubby, very well articulated, and should be read and re-read by the haters on here, because they are the ones electing the anti-teacher board members that continue this negative PR push. Remember SOda and the others get elected with 20% of the vote literally. These should be 2 person races staggered every other year so we can have CHOICES, not a Pick 3 in a list of 6. Then it becomes , finding familiar names from the paper, for those who have little interest.

Fear

I think some districts give out emergency or personal days too.

Yes, teachers can bank sick time from one year to another which I think needs to stop because there is widespread abuse.

Shrek - a rebuttal:
If you have been part of negotiations then you know about the following:
Guaranteed 3.8% increase in salary & benefits each year, per state law.

** reply: True. This existed through all the "boom" years when private sector salaries ALONE were going up 4-6% (or more) per year. Teachers often took 1% or less (some even took cuts) at the same time in order to keep their benefits. Teachers lost ground vs the private sector for over a decade under that repressive law, and as soon as the 3.8% minimum actually favored the teachers, it was abandoned by the state.

----

Tenure that makes it extremely difficult to get rid of poor teachers, no matter how poorly they perform.

***A frequently quoted, but entirely false statement. Poor administrators were the problem here. Any decent administrator could get rid of a poor teacher with proper documentation, but they were often unwilling to do the necessary work. Don't blame teachers because their supervisors didn't do their jobs.

---

Excessive sick days (60+ in many districts) that can be used at time of retirement instead of what they were intended for.

** Most districts gave about 10 sick days per year, often 1 or 2 of which could be used for personal time. Teachers could accumulate days to a certain point over the course of a career. If they were fortunate enough to retire without a catastrophic illness or injury that used dozens of sick days, then some districts (perhaps about half) allowed unused sick days to be exchanged for retirement health care. From a financial standpoint, it is a pretty good deal for the district. Subs cost about $150/day. Making sick days "use it or lose it" actually costs the district money. Unused sick days save money. But short-signted policies are going to end up costing taxpayer dollars.

----

Stipends at retirement.

** Again, another overall cost savings for a district, but one that gets spun as some awesome benefit for employees. It is much cheaper for the district to pay a few retirement benefits and hire a much less expensive worker than it is to keep the expensive older worker, benefits and all. But, once again, short-sighted individuals will end up costing the district money by forcing older, more expensive employees to stay on the job.

----

There are many more benefits than what I have listed that are considered by most to be excessive.
When talking about the take home pay reductions, why don't the teachers want to show us the complete package they receive? Is it that they are ashamed of the excesses?

***

Excesses like: Heath Insurance - 12% employee paid at least, NO vision care, Minimal dental insurance (pays for checkup and maybe one crown per year), No disability insurance or long-term care, unlimited required overtime,...oh we could both go on I'm sure.

sick days for teachers are 10 not 12 my mistake. So again stop with the lies if you want to be taken seriously.
OOOO 3.8% in salary AND benefits? How is that excessive considering the over inflated cost of benefits? And you people wonder why I advocate for single payer health care?

QUIT BLAMING THE TEACHERS!

I am not a teacher, nor do I want to, because I would have to babysit for 8+ hours a day. I am not saying all kids are bad, but I bet a good sized chuck are more than "unpleasant" to deal with.

Lets focus on the point at hand, improve our educational system, stop giving 100K + a year employees (SDJ employees) nice bonuses and incentives. The Middle Class needs some help, before we are in a 2 class society, the rich and the POOR. Don't start with the "education" thing either. These hard working teachers have their education, they chose the profession and do not deserve attacks because of WALKER.

RECALL WALKER!!

shrek
All that you have stated in contracts are what BOTH side work out IF those elected to office for the city or state feel it is to much then they should not agree to said contract
Once that contract is agreed on then both sides need to live with it until its end

QUIT BLAMING THE TEACHERS!

I am not a teacher, nor do I want to, because I would have to babysit for 8+ hours a day. I am not saying all kids are bad, but I bet a good sized chuck are more than pleasant to deal with.

Lets focus on the point at hand, improve our educational system, stop giving 100K + a year employees nice bonuses and incentives. The Middle Class needs some help, before we are in a 2 class society, the rich and the POOR. Don't start with the "education" thing either. These hard working teachers have their education, they chose the profession and do not deserve attacks because of WALKER.

RECALL WALKER!!

Shrek could you please prove your 60 sick days comment. That is saying that there are districts that allow 1/3 of the school year off in sick time? That is an outright falsehood. I know you can bank them ans save them if you dont use them, but I will contend that there is NO district in any state that has that many sick days.
And FYI, Janesville teachers get 12 per year, so enough with the teacher hating rhetoric.

Again post your source on 60 sick days a year, otherwise stop repeating stuff you heard at a bar, okay?

bears -- corporations had no choice --- your attitude is well if labor and material costs increase, just charge more. The reality is a product or service value is determined by the marketplace. If you are unable to meet the market price, the company must look at alternatives to meet the market price. So unions, management, all involved, have created the situation and forced the shift to cheaper labor. Maybe we can use imported labor to teach our children.

Forget about pay and benefits for now, we need to start a discussion on improving education overall with discussions, not running or recalls.

It is unfortunate that the excellent teachers are being alienated by these changes. That doesn't set well with me.

Helge,
If you have been part of negotiations then you know about the following:

Guaranteed 3.8% increase in salary & benefits each year, per state law.

Tenure that makes it extremely difficult to get rid of poor teachers, no matter how poorly they perform.

Excessive sick days (60+ in many districts) that can be used at time of retirement instead of what they were intended for.

Stipends at retirement

There are many more benefits than what I have listed that are considered by most to be excessive.

When talking about the take home pay reductions, why don't the teachers want to show us the complete package they receive? Is it that they are ashamed of the excesses?

Thinkfuture, do you have a source for the claim that the reserve fund is one of biggest in the state? --Gazette reporter Frank Schultz

Holy crap...I agree with Vato for once. I don't think the JEA should roll over but it is worth another discussion. Walkers intentions were good but the deployment of his policy was dirty and unfair.

Right on recall walker & all those that are in office that follow him with their eyes closed The blind leading the blind

Yeah...president of Boys town.

WALKER FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!

RECALL WALKER!

Maybe we could sell "worthless shares of stock" ($250 ea.) to the general public so they could have a say in their school decisions. LOL! Maybe we could ask Coach Bielema to renegotiate his contract to lower his salary. How about asking the Governor to negate ACT 10? Ridiculous you say? So is Sodeman's request to reopen the contract...for the umpteenth time.

"Walker said "there's nothing to negotiate, nothing to compromise,""

You kill me

I voted for Walker and I agree with his intentions but his approach is debatable.

Compromising, communicating, negotiating, collaborating, and problem solving are skills that have been absent from all sides during the past year and one half.

Unions have a right to look out for their interests just like businesses do just like you have said before.

I will say that public unions have a hard time changing pay and benefits. They see it as an all out assault. I think we all do and that's understandable.

We need grown men and women talking these things out and stop with the power playing, it is hurting our future.

shrek
I have negotiated contracts
Unless there would be an agreement in the contract stating that it could be reopened it stands as is
both sides have this right to put that in the contract if they think there may be need for it & agree to it

If the union choses once again to side with their rank and file - I dont have any problems with that - the union signed a contract as did the school board.

However, when teachers are fired, schools are closed, services cut, and fees are raised-dont complain. This is the choice.

The union tactic of kicking the can down the road is a flawed strategy. Teachers and its union talk a great game about their concern for children, but their actions reveal their over-riding concern for their own egos, their own jobs, and preserving the status quo.

Let's get some CHARTER schools going here! Then, my friends, when there is a bad teacher, guess what? They can be FIRED.

helge...+1 I completely agree. A contract is a contract and they should live with it and abide by it's terms. The board should have given them the option to open it once to prevent teacher layoffs. Once that was done let the unions know exactly how much is in the budget for teacher salaries so the union could prepare and inform it's members regarding layoffs. It would have also given the union more time to decide what would be the qualifying factors regarding what teachers would retain their positions and which ones would lose them. The back and forth needs to end........

Had the union been willing to negotiate over that last few years, this would not be an issue now.
***
So it IS the fault of the union for being inflexible. Obviously none of you have ever sat in the negotiations with the union or you would understand this issue better.

A Contract is a contract live with it

In 2013 you will still be in a much better situation than many of us are currently, I recently took a 15% paycut as it has been called by teachers to contribute to my retirement, I will eventually be up to 25% that is quite a bit more than the 5% the teachers will be contributing. I think the term scapegoating and disrespecting gets confused for people in much worse shape tired of hearing from a group that feels they are being victimized, as I said perspective. One last thing can we stop with the overblown and ridiculous MLK references and comparisons to Hitler, I would hope educated people would know where those lines are.

I agree with Eagle1 that "Perspective is all we ask". That's all teachers are asking for: perspective. Would you give up money willingly now, knowing full well in 2013 you will lose a considerable amount of money, along with other negotiated rights? Would you give up money willingly to support a district and a city that quite often disrespects your career and makes you the scapegoat to all of the problems facing Janesville?
Perspective, people, that's all we ask.

A contract is a contract the board saw this budget issue coming or at least they should have, however with that said for the teachers to continue this myth that their position is all about the kids is laughable, at least be honest you don't want to pay for your benefits, I get it, none of us do, but this is big boy time, step up, I would request you ask your friends what percentage they pay in the private sector for retirement and health insurance, I am currently at %28 and that doesn't include taxes that go towards public worker benefits. Yeah I know I am just jealous, not really, get your benefits get as much as you can however when it is time to step up and be an adult count your blessings you could be much worse off. The argument of 'you couldn't do our job' is a bit weak because I guarantee you couldn't do mine either, the one I get paid 25% less than the average teacher and show up for the entire year, and I will be well past the age of 55. Perspective people that is all we ask.

No surprise that there is no one at these meetings representing the interests and concerns of the tax-payers or the students.

Parr is acting like a politician, this question has been asked and answered 4 times!! No means NO!!
Sodeman wants to be a politician, unfortunately the only office you can get elected for with 21% of the vote is school board, otherwise hed run for something else. Hey , Bill I have an idea, stop meddling in the schools and the teachers(whom you obviously have ZERO respect for , i.e. your little letter to the editor a few years back(TP)) and run for the only other office you could have by getting 20% of the vote, CITY COUNCIL. When will the Sodemann era be over? Cannot happen soon enough.

BTW I encourage every single customer that has a contract with phones plus to ask to renegotiate it due to tough economic times, I am sure that Mr. S will accomodate you.

Any of you pissing and moaning about taxes and money I beg you PLEASE, ask the board what the fund 10 balance is, how the money was allocated and why they refuse to use it.
To sit there and act as if there is no money when we have a 30 million dollar fund that was essentially built over the years by the SAVINGS the district has enjoyed because of the self-funded teachers health care insurance is RIDICULOUS.

PLEASE ask questions DEMAND answers!! There is a 30 million dollar BALANCE in the districts "checking account each and every year, how can that be with such dire defecits facing us every year? How is it that we are constantly badgering teachers about opening their contracts? Raising the local tax levy when they have essentially stashing everyone's money away for a "rainy day". Id say its pouring, wouldnt any of you?

Funny how the false repetetive right wing "mutts" as ezoner so eloquently put it. Keep coming on and talking about how the contracts were rushed through, not by a LONG shot. I would also remind you and others that Walker did not run on the destruction of collective bargaining rights , had he done that, he would have surely lost.

Mentor - I hate to sound like a broken record on here, but this point has been made over and over again. The Janesville Education Association did NOT push or rush a contract through in order to avoid collective bargaining limits. They negotiated the current contract in good faith prior to Governor Walker and all of his special "tools". I am not a teacher in Janesville; however, I thoroughly support the teachers. Please do not open your contract. If the school board was unhappy with the conditions in the contract they should have voted it down!

ThinkFuture: You are right on, the board has not considered other viable options. They continue to drink the TeaParty kool aid provided by Bill S., DuWayne S. and the like. Unions stand strong! You have no reason to trust these folks!

What did Walker learn from this?

Shouldn'ta rushed the contract through to avoid the new collective bargaining limits. What did they learn from this? Nothing. They'll just blame Walker.

We need to stop putting it on the teachers and get it to the one (ones) who got us into this mess in the first place. The council and our present( not for long) gov. The city overspent without thinking about the bad times and the gov for crippling the most important things like the education and welfare of it's citizens. This govenor has declared that anyone not working is worthless, lazy, and a burden in it's back. How many of us are unemployed here in jville or underemployed. He has also made this state on of the most divided amongst it's neighbors and civility has been lost. What a nice state of fitzwalkerstan we live in eh?
Recall comming.

The board acts like they have had no options.
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*Did the board come out in unanimous support against "Walker's tools" that have crippled our school community and threaten decades of good-faith negotiations?
*Did the board consider supporting Senator Cullen's bill asking for short-term aid to bridge the gap to 2013?
*Does the board consider annual lost revenue from when they did not tax to the allowable limit?
*Does the board recognize it is still sitting on one of the largest reserve funds (per capita) in the state?
*Does the board recognize the paradox of asking for union support after rejecting many opportunities to support the union through the Walker crisis?
*Does the board support long-term solutions like the recall of Governor Walker?

If the shoe were on the other foot, would the Board negotiate with the JEA for increased teacher benefits if a contract had been signed.

Ezoner, situations due change, since corporations have sent all our manufacturing overseas and almost destroyed the middle class... Maybe it's time America renegotiates all their sweet heart deals and they finally pony up!!

Hillman, it most likely will be a handbook (written without teacher input of course)of board policies covering everything from grievance procedures to snow day rules rather than a contract. That's what's happening in many districts.

Ezoner, if your community is on the brink of fiscal collapse, you need to look harder than the educators of your children for the cause.
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You may also wish to look up the definition of "contract" and also consider if the district might be willing to raise the teachers salaries or give a bonus (as the city did) given the fact that the fund balance is so high and was built up on the backs of the teachers overly high health insurance premiums.
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Maybe the union SHOULD renegotiate to ask for some of those tens of millions of dollars back in bonuses.

Walker said "there's nothing to negotiate, nothing to compromise," but it's your inflexible attitude MadCityDad that has brought our community to fiscal collapse. THAT's funny.

Ezoner, there will be no next time to negotiations, when the current contract expires it will be the last one given the current law. Collective bargaining for public employees is over, something else will take its place. Not sure what that is but in Janesville's case it doesn't take effect until June 30, 2013 when the current contract expires.

Mad City -- situations change. Your inflexible attitude is what has brought the community to the point of fiscal collapse. Keep barking like a union mutt instead of talking and working through a sane solution that all can live with. If I were a teacher I would leave as son as the contract is up, because the next negotiation will be brutal if no flexibility is shown now in these difficult times.

This reminds me of the Dilbert cartoon where the boss was trying to get out of a contract because he hadn't bothered to read what was in it first.
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Don't make the deal if you aren't prepared to live with it.