"She noted that the demand for teachers of students with disabilities has been stronger than for elementary school teachers."

That's because we in America have become for some misplaced reason, disproportionately obsessed with spending an inordinate amount of money and time on dumbing down our entire educational program and curriculum in a futile attempt to accommodate all those with even the faintest whiff of an excuse for poor performance, instead of challenging and fostering the best and brightest students and letting motivation be the key to success and rewards.

While arguably "charitable" (though more likely "irrational"), such priorities are almost entirely without merit and constitute the biggest waste of educational resources on this planet.

In a society where virtually every kid has access to computers and mobile phones, wheels and junk food, TV and movies and video games and Youtube and Facebook (and yet many are still bored to tears) - and few are involved in no real activity that any function or meaning aside from entertainment - is there any wonder why kids don't feel the need to work hard for anything? There's little that isn't already provided for them.

Wonder why the homeschooled kid has personality defecits? Funny post.

Ahhhh, yes, theres another one......."diversity"......don't we all want "diversity".
I would agree that diversity is a good thing in ALL venues.

Actually, mspotter, you didn't address any of the issues I proposed about your "free" education, and secondly I applaud your success story, however, as I noted, it is often times the exception. The vast majority of students that decide to "home school" come back to public schools as opting for home schooling is usually a reaction to other concerns. Congratulations on your success, I'm also glad you speak for all home schooled kids, do you go to a convention? Do you get literature? Do they talk about how "scared" public educators are of you? Because I have never heard the NEA, JEA, RVUT, or of any other teacher group, union, or committee express any fear that a housewife with no training could do a better job than them.

MrsPotter, I am a homeschooling parent, also, and I think your us-against-them mentality is counterproductive. Homeschooling isn't for everyone. It's a choice that I am very happy to have. I think having different choices for different needs is what makes this a great country. Traditional schools, charter schools, online schools, homeschools. We are a diverse country. We need them all.

Poobah,
The rates on low and middle income people did not go up, the amount of credits that they receive decreased.

Honestly -- if this guy believes that he was born to teach, he would make it. If he listens to people that tell him to get out, he is making a mistake. I was told not to go into engineering, although I may make less than I dreamed, I am happy with the choice I made and wouldnt have made a different decision.

mrbread, do you know the majority of homeschooled students? I doubt it. I also think that after 25 years of homeschooling I know more of them than you do, and I can tell you that almost all of those I know are doing great. I can think of one who is a chronic underachiever (can't hold a job) but that's due to personality deficits, as far as I can tell.

poobah, thank you for your comment. I base my thought that teachers fear homeschooling on their yearly condemnation of it at the NEA convention. If they were secure in what they were doing, why would they go after the homeschoolers every year?

Donate $300 to the parochial school of your choice. Dedicated quality teachers and they never scream in the face of those who pay their salary (the work for 1/2 of the pay earned by abused union teachers).

MrsPotter, I think it's fantastic that you've home-schooled your children. It's very refreshing to see parents so actively involved in their children's education. But I seriously doubt that teachers are scared by home-schooling parents. You can educate for less money than school districts for a number of reasons .. you didn't have to build a school, hire administrators and teachers, etc. But I don't mean to detract from the tremendous effort you've put in to educate your kids. It's a lifetime gift you've given them.

MrsPotter, congratulations, unfortunately, your story is not the story of the majority of home schooled students. If more parents were willing to be parents, their would be fewer problems to deal with. However, you noted that it cost you nothing to educate your children? If you weren't home schooling, undoubtedly you would be working, and making money. While that is a sacrifice your family made, it should be noted that either you had a bread winner that afforded you the opportunity or you made appropriate sacrifices to achieve your goal. In the end, it did cost something, nonetheless you should be applauded INDIVIDUALLY for your success. To suggest that all home schooling results in the same successes is quite riduculous, and to assume that everyone else has the resources to do so, is ludicrous.

No hard numbers regarding fewer applicants, fewer education majors, no numbers at all, just some probably not so random interviews of people that feel like Frank does. Evidently, this is the new standard for journalism.

Hey poobah, this conservative did homeschool her children: four of them, from birth to high school graduation. And they're doing great; one even graduated from college magna cum laude.

We homeschooling parents scare teachers to death because we demonstrate that it doesn't take thousands of dollars to educate kids. That's why the NEA condemns us every year at their convention: we've proven that teachers hold neither a special talent nor the moral high ground simply by virtue of being teachers.

And one of mine is dev. disabled, so don't start on how we need highly paid teachers because there are so many kids with special needs. Been there, done that. The bottom line is that kids are born wanting to learn; given the time and opportunity, they will learn without expensive buildings and overpaid teachers. Homeschooling works!

916WI said, "In one breath, you refer to conservatives as "tax and spend" and in the very next you claim that conservatives don't tax enough. Duh:)"
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Haha, I love it when you start pouting. You are tax and spend conservatives. And you obviously don't feel you're taxing the low and middle income enough because your fearless leader, Scotty Baby, just increased their rates. Why stop there? I'm sure you tax and spend conservatives will find a way to keep increasing low and middle income taxes while lowering the highest income level rates. Nothing at all contradictory about my statement. Cheeky, isn't it?

...........heres another one.......... "make the best of it"

This Koch family is supposed to be so bad.....I watch some good programs on PBS and they say "paid for by David H Koch", he don't seem like too bad a guy if he is one of them.

...there is something called "doing the best you can" and "going with it" when anyone has this dilemma, I don't know why it would be any different for teachers.

"prospective teachers question career choice"
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I would bet that teachers aren't the only ones to do that.

Poobah......Your comment, "Walker and his tax and spend conservatives are in a race to the bottom. He's found a gullible constituency (you included) that believes the trickle-down drivel of the 1980's and he's dumbing down you and the other tax and spend conservatives. I know you'd be happy as a hog in mud to be the bottom taxed state in the union (and have the worst education system, if any, and no government services)." is yet another one right out of the liberal retard handbook--"try to confuse them with nonsense to end a conversation":) In one breath, you refer to conservatives as "tax and spend" and in the very next you claim that conservatives don't tax enough. Duh:)
I hardly consider that a state taxing it's residents at 25% above the national average as being a state that's in "a race to the bottom". I'm fine with what I currently pay, anymore than that--absolutely not. I understand that the unions and the liberals would jump at the chance to "tax to the max" in order to fund 100% of the pensions and the HC of the public union members, while those that they are taxing have no where near the benefit packages that the unions are demanding for their members. I have to thank Walker for stepping in and preventing that from happening. I find it comical that when the Janesville benefit was held less than 1/3 of the teachers stepped up to help their coworkers in need, while the unions who supposedly represented and fought for these people offered even less. When it comes to the taxpayers though--it's always "tax to the max"! I might be ready for graduation when looking at this issue from your perspective, but when looking at it though a rational viewpoint, you graduated with a Masters in Stupidity years ago. I would even go so far as to say you could teach the course--or at the very least be a teachers aide until you get the swing of things--which I'm guessing wouldn't take very long at all. When you get a chance, provide some examples of the tax increases on the middle class you referred to in your your other post. I would be interested to see the specifics on those. Thx!

I would have thought twice about going into teaching had I understood then how political teachers' compensation was. I have become a full adult as a teacher, had children now, and grown past the youthful bliss of "oh, whatever...I'm sure it'll all work out." There should be more disclosure that everyone with a body temperature somewhere in the 90's will have their nose in your career and that every couple years you will have to validate yourself to people who have no idea what they are even talking about. Seriously, this is what they should be talking about in EDPOLICY. It's unfair to not mention this in teacher-training programs.

clarity, old buddy, are you feeling OK? Be careful or they'll take your AFP membership card away!

The conservatives aren't all dumb - and neither are the liberals. There is nothing wrong with wanting a balanced budget, but to do so on the back of the schools is societal suicide. It is called compromise, and our "dear leader" is finding out that failure to do so leads to all sorts of problems, especially when the electorate is quite evenly split.

samibl, compassion is something that requires a personal sacrifice of time and/or money. These are two things that tax and spend conservatives feel they already are giving way too much of unless, of course, the recipients are the ultra-wealthy.

clarity- the conservatives will cause the downfall of this country. If I could leave the country I would. The entire US is becoming an embarrassment to civilized countries. The treatment our citizens receive is often closer to 3rd world than 1st class! Get off your high horse before you stab yourself with that cross of yours. My father-in-law was a small business owner (prior to retiring at well over 70)that was still capable of being a liberal person with compassion for his fellow citizens.

Oh, the sacrifices you tax and spend conservatives make in the name of enriching the ultra-wealthy. Progressives are so proud of each of you. Walker's latest budget makes us even more proud of you, clarity. It further increases taxes on the low and middle income, while giving the ultra-wealthy even more tax breaks. Thank you, thank you, thank you for all of your hard work. We're grateful beyond words that you include us in your draconian tax policies and let us also give our money to the ultra-wealthy right along with you. We all know that someday, even though it hasn't happened in 30 years, that the ultra-wealthy will trickle that money back down to us. Oh, for just a trickle!!!

Mr Davisson's mother is one of the best most dedicated teachers I have ever met. She volunteers her time well after school and on weekends for the students. As a teacher and coach she is a wonderful person. I am quite sure her mother was also. I am also in education and am also torn as to whether to encourage my daughter's interest in teaching. Regardless of pay or benefits- why would anyone in their right mind voluntarily go to work everyday to fight with poorly raised children all day just to go home and night and be vilified by the masses who don't have a clue. The unions are not the enemy, republicans and even the moronic tea party are the enemy. For me, my NEIGHBORS choose to be my enemy. I work hard daily to educate their children, only to be told how worthless and greedy I am. I went into education with the goal of touching the future, encouraging greatness and making this world a better place. I don't care what I am paid. I would make just about any salary work for me, BUT I am a college educated person who has NOT invested years and thousands of dollars into having the ability to educate the children of stingy jealous people.

You are, 916WI. Wisconsin also enjoys a relatively high standard of living compared to other states. You get what you pay for. As I've commented right along, Walker and his tax and spend conservatives are in a race to the bottom. He's found a gullible constituency (you included) that believes the trickle-down drivel of the 1980's and he's dumbing down you and the other tax and spend conservatives. I know you'd be happy as a hog in mud to be the bottom taxed state in the union (and have the worst education system, if any, and no government services). But fortunately, there are people who do care about the health and education and housing of people. Don't worry though, you don't have much further to go, personally, in the dumbing down process. I'd say you've about qualified for graduation. Congratulations.

poobah....Your comment, "Teachers are facing less "money and benefits" because people like YOU are too selfish to pay. You're a crafty one alright." doesn't really tell the entire story.
It has little to do with being selfish--Wisconsin state income and property taxes are already 25% above the national average. While Wisconsinites are struggling to put away anything for their retirements, teacher's unions demand that their members retirements be fully funded by those that find it increasingly difficult provide for their own........Remind me again, who's the selfish one?

Has Frank Schultz ever mentioned in any of his articles that his wife is a teacher? Slanted view maybe?

TCB,
Nice try again with the market analysis or lack there of. SO with the market as it is and the local economy what it is in Janesville what should the prized math and science teacher be paid today? Don't worry I know the answer, less than you.
Oh yeah, "perhaps Mr Davisson's family members were honest enough to tell him that in a unionized teaching environment-if he is the last person hired to teach-he will be the first person fired when it comes time to make budget cuts-irrespective of Mr Davissons desire or more importantly ability to teach." apparently you haven't read the bill because by the time this kid would start teaching this would be a non issue. JA

TCB – unless your real name is Mike Rosen, you really need to give credit when you do a cut and paste, otherwise it is considered plagiarism by honest people.
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Rosen: Making choices in education
Denverpost.com – 9/17/2009
http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci...
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Now, regarding your comments about this family. I have known of this family for approximately the past 35 years or so and loosely worked with them professionally a few years back. They have no idea who I am in this forum. The grandmother and mother of the student are the very people that you should most desire to be standing in front of our students and teaching them. Instead, to the casual reader, you try to anonymously damage their character through innuendo and falsely planting seeds of doubt about their dedication to education. I would have been very proud to have them help my kids in the library and stand in front of my kids as their teacher. These are people of high moral character, are very skilled in their professions and are to be honored rather than attacked by the likes of you who is not even honest enough to say where you get your words.
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Quite frankly, you should be very ashamed of yourself for even questioning their dedication as teachers of our kids. But I know you will not care in the least. You see, I have very close relatives just like you that get their deepest thoughts and tactics from Rush Limbaugh & Glenn Beck who, in reality are proxy's for Ayn Rand her heartless philosophy. Pathetic............

crafty said, "If you're that concerned about the money and benefits, maybe you shouldn't be a teacher. You're too selfish."
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Haha, that's a self-proving hypocrisy. Teachers are facing less "money and benefits" because people like YOU are too selfish to pay. You're a crafty one alright.

If you're that concerned about the money and benefits, maybe you shouldn't be a teacher. You're too selfish. Screw the Union thugs.
GO WALKER!

Noleftist, As Chris Christie said, "this is the crap I have to hear!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx723c9uB...

Uh oh, now schools will only have 100 qualified applicants for each new job instead of 120. Those 20 bright new young teachers will have been discouraged because their health retirement benefits were cut to only 100% more than what everyone else gets.

Puleaze.

Realist,

A market clearing wage. This salary will vary based on subject, experience, district so on. But make no mistake the total cost to employ a teacher needs to under go a serious autopsy. These costs go far beyond a salary-its the salary, the benefits, the pension-everything that a private business must incorporate into its business plan to pay for the business operations. When millions (yes millions) of people are qualified to teach-the market clearing wage is low (whatever low is).

Over the years, public schools have de-emphasized basic academics and educational rigor — cognitive learning — in favor of social engineering and what the teachers' colleges call affective learning — how students feel. That's why American students are falling behind their foreign counterparts

Currently, public schools are primarily accountable to the teachers unions and the school boards that those same unions devote their considerable resources to elect. There is no market test of accountibility. But it’s not just the quality of schools and student achievement at issue here. It's what's being taught and how. The curricula, the values and the philosophical approach to education matter even more.

Getting back to the article, perhaps Mr Davisson's family members were honest enough to tell him that in a unionized teaching environment-if he is the last person hired to teach-he will be the first person fired when it comes time to make budget cuts-irrespective of Mr Davissons desire or more importantly ability to teach. While his grandmother and mother would be sparred based on their tenure-not ability alone. But alas, Mr Shultz conveniently left this fact out of his heart wrenching article.

What good is a rusty rotor? Rusty, really, you tax and spend conservatives aren't helping liberals at all unless they are multi-billionaires. All of your tax dollars are going to the ultra-wealthy.

RustyRotor -

Do you have anything to actually contribute to the discussion?

grandys618 -

Clearly he doesn't mean that the private sector is "dorkier" than the public sector. How could you even read that into that? He's talking about getting a job that will involve a lot more math and a lot less human contact, i.e. is "dorkier." If he was going to the engineering department at UW - Madison, it would still be "dorkier" than being a teacher who gets to interact with kids.

Liberals ... we can't live with them, they couldn't survive without us ...

Why are we blaming the teachers? Their behavior did not change prior or during this economic crisis - the only people responsible for it are the financial speculators, some of who literally make a million dollars a day, I might add. Who's seriously going after their pay and perks? Because of them, the truly protected ruling class, those who don't give a rat's patoot about people in Janesville or anywhere that isn't New York, Switzerland, or the Cayman Islands, we are all suffering. By we, I mean "everyone but them, the people responsible."

The media is owned by this protected ruling class and will never actually report accurately on their behavior. The system of incentives prohibits it.

To the teacher haters: why are you buying into the protected ruling class' rhetoric? Everything they've done for the last 40 years has been in an effort to create exactly what we have now and more: a large population of desperate, disposable unemployed or underemployed people that they can treat like dirt and control absolutely. Their rhetoric claims that only rich people are important and only rich people can create, therefore, only rich people "deserve" to have adequate nutrition, health care, decent education, and the realistic ability to pursue happiness.

Here's what a member of the protected ruling class would say about kids if they were being honest: "So what about the children? Are you a child? Are you the child of a rich person? No? Well, by the transitive property of worth, you don't deserve any of these things either. But of course abortion is wrong! You're morally obligated to subject your plebeian offspring to a grinding, miserable existence because we need more people to control and squeeze and to support the military- and prison-industrial complexes!"

When are these ten-year-old tax cuts going to create jobs? When?

To those of you who consider yourselves to be pro-small business, I would like to ask you this: what are you going to do when most of your (former) customers no longer have disposable income? You can be the hardest-working person in the world, but if everyone around you is reduced to desperate serfdom, do you think they'll have money to go shopping? Eat out? Get their car fixed?

Petty jealousy about the decent work environment you wish you had won't save you from that. If you act on it by voting for someone who hates average people (almost all Republicans), your business will just suffer more. Face facts: no customers = no business. And if things keep going the way they are, people will continue to get more and more desperate, and property crime will skyrocket. Is that good for business?

One last shout-out: Hey Republicans! If your net worth is less than $10,000,000.00, you're acting like a victim of domestic abuse. You're voting for people who literally say that your kids don't deserve to go to the doctor when they get sick. Come on. Quit believing the abusers' lies, get out, and get help.

TCB,
"For the record, schoolteachers typically make a lot more than $30,000 a year. A mid-career teacher with a master's degree earns about $70,000 in salary " BS.
So what dollar amount are you willing to pay based on todays market?

factsplease, reality and other independent thinkers... Seriously, these tax and spend conservatives won't be happy until all of them, except the ultra-wealthy, are wallowing in a cesspool of poverty earning minimum wage (if that survives them), with no benefits, no government services, no entitlement programs and no need for an education system. A few very enterprising ultra-wealthy people have found a constituency in the tax and spend conservatives that is all too happy to swallow their trickle-down drivel and dumb themselves down like good little lemmings.

Clarity - of course that number does not include fringe. (as stated by a previous post, that is not the way it is done in the private sector....). CKB's numbers were stated "for salary alone", so I stayed with that standard.

If you work in the private sector, do you think "I make $XX,XXX INCLUDING my fringe benefits."???? Do you even know how much your employer spends on your benefits? I'm not sure why we are holding teachers to this standard all of the sudden.

The tax and spend conservatives have voted in their man Walker are getting just what they so heartily endorse in these comments. Higher taxes on themselves, fewer teachers, reduced government services and lower taxes on the wealthy. Those tax and spend conservatives are one clever bunch, aren't they?

According the the salary link, Janesville's HIGHEST paid teacher got $68,194 (I think this was the 2009-2010 school year). So to claim the average was 70K plus benefits is obviously a lie.

this notion that private schools are somehow so much better than public is quite the illusion.
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The only difference, is private schools can be selective in who they take, and in the vast majority of the cases, have parents that are involved with their students lives. They take great responsibility in that and therefore make the sacrafices necessary to get their child into a private school. Parents who are involved and care generally have children that perform much better in school than those that don't
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public schools on the other hand take everyone, and there are a lot of parents that just don't care, and it reflects in the performance of their children.

Nice try, TCB, but your numbers fail completely. First, the average salary for a teacher is in the $45,000 range, not the $70k you stated. Some top teachers in some districts may approach, or even surpass, the 70k salary, but those are exceptions and not the rule. Most districts highest pay amount is well under $70k.

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Second - the assertion that teachers work only 9 months per year is a red herring. Many professionals and non-professionals work 4-10's for a weekly "shift" - meaning that after 3 weeks of paid vacation and 7 paid holidays , they only work 191 days per year. Their salaries are not pro-rated by "number of days", so why should a teacher's salary be so adjusted? Most teachers average 10+ hour work days when you consider all the before and after-hours grading, planning, parent contacts, etc...that are part of their salaried positions, meaning that the number of hours worked per year are on par with other professional and non-professional jobs.

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Finally - your proposals on pay-for-performance are great talking points, but exceedingly difficult to enact, primarily because of the difficulty in measuring performance. If you say "student achievement", then you may as well pay dentists based on how many cavities their patients get - it makes as much sense.

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The one place you may have a point is in the "more money does not necessarily equal better" column. You're right - throwing money at problems does not solve them, but your logic is flawed to think the inverse (taking money away makes things better) is also true. [if you studied logic you'd know that if a statement is true that the truth of the inverse does not logically follow] Gutting education and taking away incentives for teachers and programs for students will not help.

You can't compare Washington DC and LA with Janesville on costs. The cost of living is a lot higher there as is the poverty rate.

clarity: It is probably true that some parochial schools offer a good education, as do many, many public schools. All I know is, many more parochial school teachers try to become public school teachers in our district than the other way around. Why is that?

For all you teacher bashers out there I have a question. If teaching is such a kooshy job with fabulous pay, benefits and working conditions why don't you quit bashing teachers and just become one? Then you can have all that too.

Realist:

What should teachers earn?

Including higher education, there are more than 7 million teachers in the U.S., and a waiting list of people who aspire to these positions. There are tens of millions of Americans who have the ability to perform these jobs. The market-clearing price equilibrates supply and demand. Schools must pay that price to attract and retain employees. If there were a shortage of qualified teachers, schools and taxpayers would have to pay more. There isn't, so they don't.
For the record, schoolteachers typically make a lot more than $30,000 a year. A mid-career teacher with a master's degree earns about $70,000 in salary along with tenured job security, a gold-plated pension plan and generous fringes that add another 25 percent. Since most teachers work less than nine months a year (187 days), that's an annualized, total compensation package of more than $115,000.
I would support an immediate increase in teacher pay and support pay for performance initiatives and eliminate the defined benefit plans – convert to a defined contribution plan-like most private business. I would eliminate tenure and pay more for science and math than art, music, or PE. The per pupil expenditure in Janesville exceeds $10,000 per student per year more money has not translated into better students or better test scores. 80-85% of this figure is spent on salary and benefits to the teachers. IF more money cures then why do school districts in DC or Los Angeles which pay 20K per pupil per year consistently rank among the worst in student achievement in the nation? The answer is not more money for more union teachers-its hiring better teachers and changing the public school paradigm that rewards mediocrity and the status quo.

As for private/parochial schools, I know a lot of people who have been unhappy with the quality of education offered by private schools. They are not the answer. Even if they get "results", the selection bias makes it impossible to compare them with a public school.

clarity
Apr 24, 2011 at 8:33 p.m.
Su Some pretty good education being offered from the non union perocial and private schools.

Maybe you are right about those union teachers because they sure didn't teach you how to spell "parochial".

Written with "sarcasm."

I would tell any person that is thinking about becoming a teacher to answer two major questions. First, do you believe you will love teaching kids? Second, do you want to have your own kids? If the answers to these two questions are yes, then try to become a teacher. Teaching children will be very satisfying and rewarding, albeit challenging. Your pay and benefits will be good. The amount of time you will have to be with your own children will be more than in any other profession. That will be worth much more than money can provide.

Frank Shultz, hopefully you'll have the courage to follow Mr Davisson as he matriculates through his college years. Perhaps he could chose a career in journalism as well? Perhaps this young man has seen the writing on the wall regarding the slow death of traditional print media?

On another note Mr Shultz, do you really want a prospective teacher quitting because he disagrees with the political debate encompassing a real-not imaginary financial constraint? Or the fact that this young man was immediately swayed into quitting because his grandmother and mother said "dont follow your dream of teaching-we think you should quit and do something else because we are asked to contribute almost 7% in healthcare and pension benefits"...is this the type of individual the educational establishment seeks out or benefits from? Seems to me that this is the type of teacher that will not challenge his students to overcome obstacles, to think independently-rather Mr Davisson might be the keep the status quo, ignore the stagnant test scores, just continue to pay my retirement and healthcare premiums irrespective of economic conditions-type of teacher that do a disservice to a noble profession.

I wonder where Mr Davisson learned that he will not feel good at the end of the work day if he is an engineer? The moral of this story is the Janesville school district should not worry. There will be more applicants for positions given the real unemployement that exists in Rock county. That being the case, the district, after it trims 18+ million deficit over the next 2 years will be in a better financial position to hire and retain people who are driven to teach and who have the spine to weather tough economic times as well as be role models for the children they instruct.

Get that engineering degree and minor in business. You will be much happier in the long run. Gives you a heck of a lot more options and a lot better paycheck.

It's about quality, not quantity.

yeah, the best of the best are clamoring for a teaching job in Janesville. Most jobs have more people apply than positions available. Just because people desire a job, doesn't mean the job is "desireable"

Our actual condition is not having enough teaching positions for the number of teachers who want to teach in Janesville, not empty positions due to low salary.

Janesville Sch Dist Teacher (low)$23,943 (high)$68,194
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From that salary site. We have about the lowest starting pay in the country in this city. And with the anti-teacher attitude on these discussion boards, I don't see why ANY teacher would come here. Welcome to the new Detroit. Without good schools we are doomed. As someone keeps saying, "Will the last one to leave Janesville, please turn off the light?"

Teachers have stated that one reason for putting up with lower salary is due to good benefits. When discussing salary, benefits should be part of the discussion.

This is a market condition. There are hundreds of persons standing in line for any position. A blanket statement like higher pay will attract higher quality teachers is not accurate. Higher pay attracts persons who want higher pay. Pay equating to level of service only works when the customer controls the paying. In the case of teachers, it does not work that way.

This is just another example of the race to the bottom. The Public area is dropping to the private level. The people that have thinks that the rest should not. Second rate pay and benefits = second rate teachers,workers,police,fire protection.

Clearly the "best and brightest" will not become teachers in Wisconsin. Pay for second and third rate? Then don't expect first-rate service or results.

Yes, Indiana is a state I want WI to emulate. Ever been there? I can't believe somebody would use it as a legitimate example of how we should be

jv93 thanks for the link. That was very interesting. What that link shows is that Janesville starting salary is in the bottom 20% of the entire state, with the starting salary at a whopping $24K per year. A smart top of the class teacher graduate would be crazy to work in Janesville, when they could go to Elmbrook at $39K or any number of other districts with better wages. So, Janesville will get the students who 1:) have a personal attachment to Janesville that outweights the financial drawback or 2:) the students who don't get offers in any other higher paying district. This I have it hard therefore all others must be brought down to my level will only succeed in making sure everyone lives in equal poverty. The other point of this article is Walker's demonizing of teachers, something you have been on this board promoting excessively. The young man in this article is talking not just about the money, but also about how Walker has set out to make people hate teachers. This guy is saying if I become a teacher people will hate me and I cannot make back the investment in my education with a decent wage.

realist - techers are worth fair market value like every other occupation. Some how Illinois still has teachers and their benefits are terrible.

Still waiting for a response from someone, anyone. What should teachers be paid? Everyone is willing to bash what they make "including" benefits but haven't heard one time in all of post on any article that ever answered the question. How much is a teacher worth to the tax payer?

I work in education, with teachers and prospective teachers. I can't tell you how many college students are seriously reconsidering their career choice as a result of Walker's legislation that negatively impacts education in our state. Some of these students are Republicans themselves - but they see how Gov. Walker is taking away their ability to do their jobs and support their families. We are losing some of our best and brightest in this state - not to mention, many of our experienced teachers are being forced to retire. This is not just a problem for 2011 - this will create issues for decades in the state of Wisconsin.

I have to pause when you post that the teachers may not have any preparation periods. An article a few days ago about having an teacher take on the AD duties during the weekend for additional pay. His teaching schedule is teaching 3 classes and 2 preparation periods. What am I missing? Doesn't that seem excessive?

The "first ones on the chopping block" have not been teachers or public workers; it has been the tax payers. In the last state budget taxes were raised over 1 billion, there was over 800 million in federal stimulus added to that, there were dedicated funds raided of money, and this state still has a deficit. Through this whole debate process sunshine has highlighted the problems inherent with union bargaining for public workers in this state; 90 days per year of sick pay, calling in sick on a shift then showing up for the next shift results in 1 1/2 pay, highest paid public workers in the state are bus drivers, paying medical premiums for over 7 years after retiring, an extra years salary for 30 days work after retiring; the list is endless. Pretending this can continue without a fix is ignorant.

The state of indiana took a more radical approach in 2005, executive order removing all collective bargaining; no debate or in the state chambers at all. Guess what, the students education has not suffered, public workers are not living in poverty, and the tax payers are no longer subjected to wasted taxation. The results of union support in that state are more telling. After "forced" participation for public workers ended over 90% of state workers decided paying union dues was something they didn't want to do, a choice.

Including their fringe benefits:

"Tax to the max" Parr made just shy of $92,000?

"Smilin" Jim Reif made $75,000 last year?

Boy, they are really hurtin! Folks seriously, you and Frank Schultz make it sound like Walker's changes will DESTROY public education. With numbers like the above do you seriously and rationally believe our education system will go down the tubes? You know what...you yourself have likely taken a pay cut in the past year, unless you teach. Did you do your job worse because you took a pay cut? Honestly. Likely no. You sucked it up and did the job. All the critics of Walker's changes are doing is just fear mongering and they know it. They are just hoping you will bite. That is unless you can think for yourself.

Firefighters, police, teachers, nurses......they are the fabric that hold a community together. Really, where would we be without them? Communities cannot operate without these people!

They chose to maintain some benefits (insurance/retirement) in their compensation package. When others were getting big raises, the teachers in this state had their salaries capped. Did anyone worry about the teachers then? No, of course not.

How many of you writing on these blogs have made fun of teacher salaries in the past? Yep, admit it. It's been said plenty. "Who'd want to go into teaching? They don't make any money!"

So they don't make as much as the private sector, and now you want to take away the benefits, too?

You get what you pay for.......you want cheap......you'll get cheap. The brightest will head to other professions. Then watch our nation belly ache about the quality of our schools.

Again, allow me to reiterate.....you'll get what you pay for.

jv93...I just read all 33 posts ahead of yours, and you are the first one to honestly state the fact that public employees have been shielded from reality with the benefits they have received for so many years.
I fully support the efforts of teachers and other public employees, but I do not support using extravagent benefits to "hide" pay raises and avoid paying taxes on those benefits.
Welcome to the "real world" to you public employees...it's a rough and dangerous place out here. We're all struggling.

And in regards to that "new normal" you the public have had to accept. Why not look up what your son or daughter's teacher makes with their fringe benefits added to the equation? What do you think? Still think UWW's education department will dry up? Do you think MR. Schultz could have provided some of these numbers as a counter argument to the points he printed? He took such effort to provide full middle of the road reporting when it came to an interview he did with Paul Ryan. Why not exercise the same level of even-handedness with this topic? Why not include some of this data when lamenting the near slave like conditions that await our teachers? Search away folks. Since he won't provide it, I will. And what do you know? It's from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and since the Gazette has been having a slobbering love affair with their Politifact, I'm sure they won't mind. Better yet, you get to ask yourself whether you still want to donate money to the aptly named "Save Janesville Schools" fund.

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataond...

I don't think the public sentiment you hear on these boards is limited to Janesville. You can bash Janesville residents all you want but but they are fine, good, hard working people and this level of tax payer revolt is going on all over the state and country for that matter. We the tax payer have grown tired of being demonized, guilted, and generally goaded into paying ridiculous taxes to shield one group of people from a reality we the public have accepted as the "new normal."

Janesville......you are going to get what you deserve. With the constant "anti teacher" mentality in this town, coupled with a school board that can't be trusted, I don't blame a single Janesville teacher for leaving this district.

Young grads will shy away from coming here because of the anti-education reputation this town is developing. Can't say as I blame them. Janesville will become a "training ground" for new teachers who can't secure a job anywhere else. They'll stay for a couple of years, see the writing on the wall, and leave for greener pastures. There will be a constant revolving door of teachers. Does anyone honestly think this will build a strong educational system in this city?

Teachers needs our support--not the constant bashing!

I don't blame the young man in this story one bit. He should seek a career where he feels wanted and appreciated. If he's going to invest 4 years of time and money in college, he should find a career lucrative enough to some day support a family. Sadly, beginning teachers with families qualify for food stamps!

Considering the teacher glut, it's probably a good thing some young adults are considering different careers.

I love when you and others resort to the "for the kids" comment. What do you think a teacher is worth? Obviously not what they make now, so what is it? If they are doing everything perfect, what is it? What dollar amount are they worth?

If you feel you maybe suffocated in a possible career choice for the future, nothing wrong in rethinking your plans. You have to look out for number 1. We can't all graduate like Chelsea Clinton and start off being paid over $100,000 a year. Would be nice but ain't gonna happen.

ladystardust, You have got to be kidding,, right???

realist, I have no problem at all in this article itself, it's just the way it's presented and the way it comes across as this young man doesn't know if he wants to become a teacher just because he might not be getting the same free ride when it comes to his health care package and his pension that his Mother and his Grandmother did, maybe he doesn't have the same passion and the (what they all scream now) love of the kids! Thats what I have a problem with. IF you can't see the tilt to the left that this article comes across with then, well your just blinded by the left wing way I guess......

Doc and others
I can't believe how pissed you people get at an article that perfectly explains what is happening now and is only going to happen more in the future. Do you not want him to report this because it doesn't fit your perspective of what is really happening in this state and town? Don't believe the "biased" article. You will see for yourself in the very near future.

Excellent article! Thanks for showing a different perspective Gazette!

shrek,
So you are trying to tell us that Sodeman and severson have student achievement 1st on their priority list of what they want to do as a member of the school board? What cave do you live in?

Frank your articles seem to be leaning more and more to the left lately, why is that? Maybe just maybe if this man loves the idea of teaching as much as he seems to say, he would realize it could still be a very good job to have, I mean after all you only have to pay a small portion of your healthcare package even under the new laws and you still have the state to thank for paying a huge chunk of your pension package along with the shot at an early retirement age if you get into teaching at a young age, oh and yeah lets not forget have the summers off to do whatever they see fit to do, weather it's work part time or go on a vacation with their families (something so many of us can't afford to even do these days) But the way you make this sound now Frank I'd swear Governor Walker is making the teachers work in coal mines!! You wrote and I quote~

He has seen the writing on the wall, in the persons of Gov. Scott Walker and the other Republicans who control the Legislature.

The lawmakers decided to gut the protections in Wisconsin law that public-employee unions have enjoyed for decades.

So the protections you speak of then must be free health care packages and a fully paid for by the taxpayers pension and annual raises regardless of the rate of inflation and no matter what the economy is, am I reading this right??
Articles such as this really make me sick and jv93 is exactly right here! Is the Janesville Gazette a Janesville news paper or a Union blotter now??????
Why not write a story covering the other side here, you know the majority of us who are living check to check and have sen pay go down yearly with the economy or the less fortunate who no longer have jobs anymore who if taxes kept going up would be forced from their homes and not be able to feed their families, huh Frank, how about that!

Many districts are demanding that teachers give up all prep time so they will actually have no discretionary time to allocate to supervision and support of student teachers. They will be in front of students every hour of every school day and then will do their planning, prep, grading, report cards, conference prep, etc. on their own time when they get home.
.
"In addition, instead of the traditional elementary class sizes of 20 - 30 students, I am hearing of projected class sizes of up to 40 or so. That means even more work after hours as the grading, conference prep, parent communications and other individualized student support will perhaps double."

Please provide the names of those districts. I am sure that most people woule choose to open enroll elsewhere (you know, competitive market place rather than monopoly).

The misconception here is that the school boards do not care about educating kids. Nothing could be further from the truth, the reason people get on the board is to improve education. Maybe the teachers should try to work together with the management to make education better, our current system is failing us.

The single greatest waste that has developed over time is all of the non educating activity schools now perform that parents used to be held accountable for. Due to the negligence of parents, schools now feed, clothe, counsel etc. students to give them a chance to succeed. Parents do not have to perform outside of having the child, schools (government) are doing it all. It used to be expected to deliver a child to school prepared and supplied to learn. If you want to eliminate waste, get back to educating and hold parents responsible for delivering a prepared for educating child to school. The only real down side to doing this is government would be losing control of future generations... and government thrives on control.

realist, nothing Walker, his minions and his masters do is about improving anything. It's about dumbing-down Wisconsin, lowering wages and benefits of all workers and making Wisconsin a mecca for mega-employers of minimum wage employees with zero benefits.

Surprise, surprise. Someone please explain to me how this bill is going to improve education? Please, anyone. It isn't. Lower teacher pay, worse benefits, no job security and people are going to make the commitment to go to college for 4 years to be the pawns of a school board that cares nothing about the quality of education and only about the bottom dollar? Good luck Janesville. I am sure your test scores are going to skyrocket.

I don't mind you talking about it. I'm just asking you, why don't you home-school your children? How can you possibly send your children to be taught by people who so fully support their evil unions that have bankrupted and taken control of the state? Especially considering, based on the comments you have made, how intelligent all of you are.

Why don't all of you union-bashing savants home-school your spawn?

BillyClyde - often student teachers help with remedial reading and comprehension.......
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"Heyning said she has heard of teachers who are not sure what their district will throw at them in the fall, so they don’t want to take on the added work of supervising a student teacher."
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Many districts are demanding that teachers give up all prep time so they will actually have no discretionary time to allocate to supervision and support of student teachers. They will be in front of students every hour of every school day and then will do their planning, prep, grading, report cards, conference prep, etc. on their own time when they get home.
.
In addition, instead of the traditional elementary class sizes of 20 - 30 students, I am hearing of projected class sizes of up to 40 or so. That means even more work after hours as the grading, conference prep, parent communications and other individualized student support will perhaps double.
.
I think this is one of the more telling statements in the article:
“Teaching jobs always will be available for those willing to move out of state, Heyning added.”
It tells me that Walker and the Republicans have no vision for our state to grow – only to sell it out today to the highest bidder.

No wischick, just get tired of reading pathetic blathering stories written with such a slant and political agenda. Just tell us its an op-ed piece up front.

"Their concerns include school districts that have been reluctant this spring to commit to taking on student teachers because of budget uncertainty. Student teaching is a key requirement for a teaching license."

Help me understand what expenses are involved with a district taking on student teachers? Despite the fact that the student teacher is spending their day in the classroom and usually taking only a very limited schedule at their college or university they continue to pay full tuition to the school they are attending. Where is the cost to the district? Are they required to compensate the school in some way for the honor of having a student teacher in the classroom?
Oh, wait, the current teachers are "making a statement" by not accepting student teachers in their classrooms? You know, those same teachers who are "united" and "standing together" in support of their noble profesion are unwilling to help others to complete the course work needed to join the fraternity?

jv93: bitter much?

Where was the last article lamenting the challenges of the small business owner who after 7 years of slogging it out had to finally close their doors? After putting their heart and soul into developing their business, their family sacrificing, putting all of their savings, home equity, as well as employees taking pay cuts the business owner was not able to overcome the difficult economy coupled with the burdensome tax and regulatory climate of Wisconsin. You'll never see it but it happens all the time. As we all know, once you are a business owner, you are rich and of course evil because you are seeking to make money! When a family business fails nobody feels bad. They were just out to make money anyway and that's immoral. But teachers? Oh boy, clear the way for the moral high ground baby!

God forbid a college student have to think twice before going into a field. I guess in the past becoming a teacher was just such a no-brainer that the decision was easy? I wonder how many applications there were two years ago for a single open teaching slot? I'll bet hundreds. I'll bet UWW produces hundreds if not thousands more grads for teaching than what the market actually needs. This article implies candidates to teaching schools will just dry up with the changes the governor has instituted. Nothing could be more stupid. Also perhaps it would be smart to sit down and think twice about any field of study? Teaching or otherwise. The student in the article seems to have been swayed quickly away from teaching. If that's the case maybe teaching was not his gig to begin with? Some of your stories just make me puke.

clarity - Exactly why would Doctors or other healthcare professionals question their career choice because of the Healthcare Affordability Act. I have read the entire bill and there is nothing in the bill that affects their ability to earn a living or bargain for their employment contracts. If the bill were single payer universal healthcare you might have a valid point but it is not. Of course if your talking about Doctors or healthcare workers at UW Health or other State run facilities then you might be correct under Walker's plan. Public sector healthcare workers may very well consider whether they want to go to the private sector rather than stay at the public facilities.

Sorry to inform Noah, but he isn't going to make any more being an engineer than he is as a teacher unless he wants to move to a larger city.

Couldn't the headline also read, "Some aren’t deterred from becoming teachers?" It's all for the kids though.