I'm referring to seniors of limited means as you've described yourself, what Medicare offers and what Ryan is offering. Dental and non-life threatening vision are not included. Many seniors with limited SS income have Supplement B only for about $1,200 a year. Others lucky enough to have gap insurance are paying anywhere from $60 to $150 a month additional under age 70. But those seniors paying $6,000 to $10,000 annual out of pocket for insurance on top of Medicare are not of limited means and they can expect to pay $16,000 to 30,000 per year extra under Ryan if they expect the same quality and extras.

youkillme should check how much current Medicare requires out of pocket. Many are already paying well over 6000 to 10000 for health care, vision, and dental whether they use a benefit or not.

At least one item of Rich95's fallacies needs to be corrected so folks don't get the wrong idea. It's his theory that the market would provide an individual with better options at a lower cost after the age of 65 by merely shopping around and then keeping the difference as savings in your pocket from Ryan’s voucherized plan, something Ryan has now sarcastically transposed as a “premium support” coupon. Ryan’s "premium support" is only redeemable to insurance companies - not the patient. Remember, he works for them. Cash value of Ryan's coupon will likely be less than 1/10 of one penny. I also highly doubt any senior can acquire full coverage for less than Ryan’s coupon, but even if it happened, you wouldn't get to pocket and keep the savings for your trips to Ho Chunk. As it stands, Ryan's premium support would not cover the costs of today's basic Medicare without any supplements. Out of pocket cost estimates for seniors run anywhere from $6,000 to $10,000 annual under Ryan's proposal.

Oh darn, I watched the Last Samurai last night... I guess that means that I am now officially taking up the viewpoint of the Samurai! DAMN. It's too bad that it's inconceivable that some can appreciate a story for what it is... a story. What's that you say? FREE THINKIN MUST BE OUTLAWED!!!!!!!!! BURN THE BOOKS AND BAN THE MOVIES!!! WTF is wrong with our country. Idk, I guess I'll just have to flip back to my regularly scheduled programming to watch what is deemed acceptable since free thinking is obviously not. What's on tonight? Another episode of men kissing each other? Great. How about they make a reality tv show with the casts of Jersey Shore, the Real World, Who wants to Marry a Millionaire, and GLEE with them out defending our country. I can hear it now, someone is going to say... "well those are just for entertainment purposes"... Oh, I guess only YOU get to choose what can fall into that category huh!? I guess entertainment that makes you think is the real enemy here. Hmm... what WOULD happen if people started to actually THINK?

Apparently there are plenty of people who feel Rand's book is relevant today, and Paul Ryan is one of them. So, yes, this is a SERIOUS issue, especially if you are a believer and a Christian. Ryan has stated that is why he got into public service, and he follows her beliefs. Ryan is making this prevalent today, so then we all need to pay attention. And, as a believer and a Christian, I have a big problem with this type of thinking. We do not need someone making laws for our country who follows this type of belief system. It's a big deal, a very big deal. People need to wake up and see it for what it is. This type of belief system can ruin our country.

justmy414
Apr 25, 2011 at 7:28 a.m.
Suggest removal

"People who want public services without paying for them -- republicans."

More like, people who pick up most of the tab for A BUNCH OF ABUSED/MISUSED public services they don't need nor even want -- Replubicans.

Does anyone really care what this old crone wrote? IT'S A BOOK! IT IS ENTERTAINMENT! This woman has been dead for 29 years. The book was written 55 years ago. It's the same with George Orwell's "1984" or Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World". Sure, I could go on for days as to how those are relevant in today's political climate. BIG BROTHER IS EVERYWHERE. How about sticking with the issues that are prevalent TODAY?

Just a curious question for Rich95, are you a Roman Catholic?

Ayn Rand said she was an atheist. Anyone following her teachings is treading in deep water. There is no way you can be a Christian and follow her principles, absolutely no way.

As onedayatatime said, "I don’t understand how people who consider themselves Christians, embrace the ideology of a self declared atheist who believed the weakest of our society are not deserving of love. If this is the basis of Paul Ryan’s beliefs, Wisconsin should be very scared about the future. I personally don’t want to live in a world that is unfeeling (objectivism) where everything is only about making money, although, it appears that is the direction we will continue on if we keep electing conservatives, a cold, heartless, uncaring world. A world where it is every man for themselves will not survive."

I believe that what onedayatatime said is right on the money. Our world will not survive under Ryan. This means that money and greed are the most important things in the world, and that giving big corporations MORE money is even more important. Only the rich are deserving, not the poor and the middle class.

Ryan's plan is the end of a society. It is the path to ruin for our country. The poor and middle class cannot continue to subsidize the rich.

We, as citizens, need to be very wary of Paul Ryan's plan.

RAF said, "People wanting to keep their money bad. People wanting to take OTHER peoples money good. Yeah, okay..."

That's caveman philosophy not objectivism.

RichE95, interesting that you don't mention the rationing and shortages that would be a result of Obamacare as that was the old t-bagger argument, which is a supply side issue. Mention Ayn Rand, and all of the sudden it becomes a demand side issue. Bottom line, the people who would benefit from a national health-care system are those who are healthy and don't need health-care. I would think Ayn Rand would support a system like that.

Has anyone here actually read Atlas Shrugged?
It is an interesting look at the results of leftism when taken to the extreme.
I think that is what has led to the lefties attacking Paul Ryan.... a diversion.
Speaking of which, another GREAT POST, RichE95 Apr 24, 2011 at 3:05 p.m.

I am over 65 and went on Medicare without any alternative. This followed years of paying my own way even with limited means. I would relish the Medicare reforms proposed by Paul Ryan. It would provide a lot more options. I could almost guarantee the market would provide me with better options at a lower cost with the premium support savings in my pocket. ObamaCare and Medicare as it is will only add to the inflationary pressures on health care costs. Government is feedng the demand side of the market with little emphasis on the need for us to act like consumers (like everything else we buy). They will try Nixon like price controls (remember the 70's). The result of all this will be a decrease in supply and an increase in demand. That will result in price inflation and/or rationed care. Once again, those who will suffer will be those with the least means - victimized again by the Progressive Plantation. I wish I were younger and would have a chance for self determination as proposed by Paul Ryan.

Concernedperson.....Your comment, "That means Ayn Rand stood for one thing, but did another. That's interesting considering what she believed. Sort of hypocritical, if you ask me, to stand out against government help, but yet use your married name to accept that government help when she needed it." is probably going to get the "most stupid comment I've read all day" award. It's still early, so please don't celebrate prematurely:)
There are many us us who are completely against government entitlement programs. I speak out against social security and medicare every chance I get. Considering the fact that we cannot opt out and are forced to pay into them despite our disagreement with their existence, how is it hypocritical to use the program to get a small part of our "investment" returned to us?

"Thank you for verifying my belief about the intolerence residing in the heart of liberals."
Thank you for verifying my belief about conservatives painting everyone that doesn't hold their narrow points of view with an incredibly broad brush.

People who want public services without paying for them -- republicans.

Rich that is one word for it, there are many others.

Dear concerned. Thank you for verifying my belief about the intolerence residing in the heart of liberals.

RichE95: You WILL NOT CONVINCE me that if Paul Ryan believes and follows the teachings of Ayn Rand, that he also believes "The Bible and Christ command our care for the least of us." NO WAY, NO HOW! If you are a TRUE believer and Christian, YOU CANNOT follow the teachings of Ayn Rand. If Jesus were here today, he would have a big problem with anyone believing Rand's garbage.

If Ryan believes and follows Rand, he cannot be the Christian he claims to be. And then he is not the person many thought him to be.

I think Jesus would see it that way too.

The Catholic church has long contained leftist, almost Socialist, views on many economic matters. However, those views are not cannon laws of faith. They are not on the same level as something like abortion. Being a Catholic does not mandate we agree on economic matters. There are plenty of Catholics on both sides. The Bible and Christ command our care for the least of us. Paul Ryan believes that. Churches are the greatest providers of charitible help. I know of no Bible passages where Jesus tells us to demand that government should be the vehicle to provide for all needs.

Ouch! Paul Ryan's church isn't happy with him!
http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entr...
_
"Congressman Paul Ryan is a Rand devotee. He calls her “the reason I got involved in public service” and requires his staffers to read Atlas Shrugged. Indeed Ryan’s celebrated budget proposal reads like it was written by John Galt himself. It is one grand shrug of the wealthy--combining further upper income tax cuts with slashes to Medicaid and the conversion of Medicare to a shrinking voucher.

It is worth noting that Ryan is Catholic. I wonder if he knows that both his principles and policies are fundamentally opposed to the social teaching of the Church? "

People wanting to keep their money bad. People wanting to take OTHER peoples money good. Yeah, okay...

Rand's philosophy stinks.
She portrays greed as heroism.
Gordon Gecko in a skirt.

Where in this story does it mention Paul Ryan? Is the somewhere I can find out where Ayn Rand is required reading for Ryan staffers?

factsplease: Thanks for your post.

That means Ayn Rand stood for one thing, but did another. That's interesting considering what she believed. Sort of hypocritical, if you ask me, to stand out against government help, but yet use your married name to accept that government help when she needed it.

Sort of like Paul Ryan who says one thing, but actually underneath is for something totally different (not in the best interests of the poor, the middle class or senior citizens). He tries to hide what is really in his bill by not actually giving concrete answers at his townhall meetings when seniors ask him about it.

westorbust I'm not sure what you have watched in politics to think there has have been a voluntary move by either party away from their position as long as they have the votes needed to forward an agenda. The only time bargaining and compromise has happened is when votes are still needed to move something along.

There are plenty of examples on both sides that show exactly this approach. The last wisconsin budget was pushed through in 36 hours, no public debate, and an extra 1 billion in taxes...where was the calls for moving to the middle then?

The faults of the two party system are many, this is but one of them.

RAF, that is the paradox. If there is no middle ground, how can a government effectively govern? It can't. That's where we are today. Because Conservatives will never move to the middle on those issues, governing will be as big a failure under them as it does under Dems.
*****
What is lost on the Tea Bagger members are those aspects of social conservatism and the fact that they have been taken advantage of to further those causes. I am a conservative, fiscally. I believe in self reliance and helping your neighbor. I think some government programs have positive results, and some don't. I am not a social Conservative, though I'm sure that comes through in my posts. ;)
*****
Ryan is quite the devotee to Rand's writing. Myself, I found them obtuse and as enjoyable to read as Dickens, which means not at all. Railing agains liberalism is about all Rand and the Conserva-baggers have in common. I find it weird that someone as anti-religious and anti-Christian as Rand has such a strong following among rank and file Repubs and working class tea baggers.

Ayn Rand's theories are very enchanting when placed in an idealized setting, but in reality they fail. Ayn Rand railed against social security and medicaid (Ryan wants to end them). But when Rand was elderly, she accepted social security and medicaid because IN REALITY she NEEDED them to survive! (She used her married name for her benefits so as not to draw attention to the fact.)

Who is John Galt?

Ayn Rand;
"You are entirely independent of other people and owe them nothing."
"Only suckers make sacrifices for others."
"You are a fool if you love your neighbor as yourself."
"Success(achievement)is everything in life."
"Superior people will(and should) rule the Earth for their own benefit."
"You are not your brothers keeper. You have no responsibility for the welfare of others."

Wall Street Journal, 4/25/09. "Ryan Shines As GOP Seeks Vision," Craig Gilbert.
"The reason I got involved in public service, by and large if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand."
Paul Ryan, 2005, at a gathering honoring Ayn Rand.

Just because you have read the book, doesn't mean you believe in Ayn Rand's theories. But when you state that you believe in Ayn Rand, then you do in fact believe in Ayn Rand.

Ayn Rand may not be the person to quote if you want to keep a Republican coalition together. Christianity and Ayn Rand don't mix.

My concern with the whole article is the asssumption that by reading an authors book you embrace the belief system of the author.
The whole thing is a diversion from discussing the lessons presented in Atlas Shrugged (see RichE95 Apr 22, 2011 at 8:44 p.m.).

whzbng: It has been in news from all the stations. I thought everyone knew that is what he believed. I knew this before, but this article gives more of the details of what Rand believed. And it's very disturbing to me.

I agree with rvanscotter, this will be Ryan's drowning place.

Rand believed religion is a fraud. You cannot pick and choose what pieces you want to believe. You either believe Rand or you don't.

And the fact that selfishness is a virtue? Only radical thinkers believe this.

In my opinion, you cannot believe in what Jesus taught and still be a believer in Ayn Rand.

That kind of thinking will be the downfall of our nation.

When did Paul Ryan announce he is a believer of Ayn Rand? And tell me this does not fit the liberals also.

Interesting theories westorbust, one group should govern from the middle while issues you support have no middle ground and should not be governed from the middle.

I wonder why the comments were disabled on the interstate shooting article..........that doesn't make sense.
Maybe someone could have provided some important info to the public.

Rich said:
"Not everyone has to be a ideologue - liberals just don't get that"
Dead wrong. What conservatives don't comprehend is the need to govern from the middle. There are some issues there are no middle ground on, and most of them are social issues, not monetary, or have anything to do with the free market. They are abortion, gay marriage, and the foisting of irrational religious fantasy into American public schools. That is the long game social conservatives play, and it will continue to be their undoing.
******
There is no contradiction between Paul Ryan being a Christian and the ideals of Rand simply because any person can choose to call themselves anything, and pick and choose which christian doctrines mean something to them and which ones they ignore. My personal belief is that unrestrained free market models are not compatible with what Jesus taught, which was compassion, love and understanding, and not much else. Of course, since belief is a personal choice, none of it really matters.
*****
What does matter is pseudo-religious conservatives using the pulpit to raise funds, garner votes, and further the Conserva-Christian-Tea bagger fantasies.
******
What is being lost is the capacity for rational thought, which exactly what the powerful want.
******
The Soviet Union failed. China will not. Both are communist. Why is that?

MooShoo; Well said.

I still wouldn't vote for Ryan after reading this.

Members of both sides of the political spectrum benefit from the dynamics of trade and the marketplace. Not everyone understands this, though.

Religion, too, partakes in its own marketplace. A marketplace of wishes and accommodations: Consider the changes that religion has gone through without proclamations from god. These changes are for the purpose of not losing patrons and for acquiring new ones.

Well said Rich

Like any philosophy Libertarianism can be taken to impractical extremes. That does not mean there are not valuable lessons. In the case of Rand it is a simple truth that the market will always make economic decisions. That applies to whatever economic system prevails. It explains the collapse of pure Marxism. The utopian predictions of the Soviet Union, Cubs, Red China etc have failed. The left doesn't get the need to learn from all philopsophies. The market will bring down excessive government economic intervention in the United States. If we delay reform and try to protect the status quo it will be most painful to those who have the least. The power brokers in the Soviet Union and the Castro brothers live well - not so for the workers. There is no contradiction in Paul Ryan being a Christian and a believer in free markets. Not everyone has to be a ideologue - liberals just don't get that. They suffer from the age old malady of a closed mind. Beware of those who tell you how tolerant they are and what a hateful person you are.

I don't understand how the GOP gets the libertarians and the religious right because they are really polar opposites. It does not make sense. I guess they just hit on the hot button issues for each and no body pays attention to the rest of the platform.

My guess is that many of the right wingers who seem to idolize Rand don't understand the true nature of her work. They seem to take it and mix it with a weird religious based fervor. It doesn't really make sense, but nothing from the right usually does.

Paul Ryan believes this stuff, but yet attends church. How can this be?

From the article, which states Rand's beliefs:

"Religion is a fraud. Selfishness is a virtue."

The Objectivist ethics, in essence,” said Rand, “hold that man exists for his own sake, that the pursuit of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose, that he must not sacrifice himself to others, nor sacrifice others to himself.”

Rand regarded the people as “looters” and “parasites.” She was a strenuous advocate for class warfare.

The selfishness part I do see in conservatives and most Republicans.

The class warfare part of the article I see in our governor by the war that he has brought upon the middle class working people in our state.

The poor and working class people are seen as "parasites." Give me a break. Similar to what Scott Fitzgerald called the people who protested at the Capiol. I believe he called the protesters "slobs."

Now tell me why any person in their right mind would vote for a man who lives by this philosophy? Paul Ryan is not "for the people."

Ayn Rand philosophy is embraced by the Libertarian Party, Tea Party and many Republicans such as Paul Ryan. Anyone who believes in the Ayn Rand philosophy of objectivism and selfishness, IMO is immoral themselves. Ayn Rand believed that all the producers (the power brokers) should be unfeeling in order to make objective decisions. She believed that selfishness is the ultimate virtue and it is immoral to put anyone else before oneself. If you put others before yourself, it is showing weakness. She called caring for others "moral cannibalism". She also referred to people who do good things for others, for reasons other than making money, are lice, parasites and looters.
I don’t understand how people who consider themselves Christians, embrace the ideology of a self declared atheist who believed the weakest of our society are not deserving of love. If this is the basis of Paul Ryan’s beliefs, Wisconsin should be very scared about the future. I personally don’t want to live in a world that is unfeeling (objectivism) where everything is only about making money, although, it appears that is the direction we will continue on if we keep electing conservatives, a cold, heartless, uncaring world. A world where it is every man for themselves will not survive.

Look, it's pretty simple. Objectivists are silly.

While not a Rand fan, I believe it's important to understand that trade and the market place are the truer dynamics for morals and cooperation, not religion.

When Ryan is up for reelection, people shouold remember that Rand is required reading for his staffers. This perfectly explains the republican philosophy.

And those who seek the drowning place, apparently include Rep. Paul Ryan.

Rand has relevance by giving us all a clear perspective by viewing life and the world through "objective" eyes.
This provides a handy and productive reference point that can be useful in examining problems or understanding the actions of others.
However, to choose this philosophy as a life plan is both irresponsible and immoral.
We are to assume that the heroic individuals that drop out of society go on to live happily ever after.
I will venture that would certainly not be the case.