RetardedGM - Are you more against teachers or the ice rink? I'm glad you keep coming up with new usernames. You make me laugh.

greatplain:
Are you serious?
"once the check is cut, it isn't public?"
Call it what you want (public or private), but please do not pretend that the checks that Districts issue to teachers are not funded by state and local taxpayers.
Districts receive nearly all of their revenue from two sources - state aid (funded by state revenues from state taxes and fees) and local property tax payers.
They then use that revenue to pay their teachers (and buy things but 80% of a District's budget is salaries and benefits for its employees).
WEAC survives because of the dues it forces all teachers to pay at the local level. The money that teachers use to pay their dues comes from their salaries which are absolutely funded by local taxpayers.
You can "Whatever..." until the cows come home but that doesn't change the fact that taxpayer dollars end up in WEAC's coffers.

abluedevil: Your argument that taxpayers fund unions is purposefully misleading. All teachers benefit from the success of teacher bargains, thus "fair share" members must pay dues. You can spin it whatever way you want, but once the check is cut, it isn't public. Whatever....

More teacher cuts coming to cities south of the Wiscosin border. First it was Belvidere; now it is Rockford.

greatplain
Sorry but WEAC is supported by taxpayer dollars (albeit indirectly).
The dues that teachers contributed (by force - all bargaining contracts with teachers include fair share agreements that require teachers to pay dues whether or not they choose to be members of the union) are deducted directly from the salaries of teachers in most cases.
To argue that taxpayers do not fund teacher salaries (which directly support WEAC) is just silly.
**********
Both sides in Milton are presenting public arguments that don't necessarily tell the whole story.
The District knows that they never would have kept 100% of the savings from a reduction in healthcare costs - most of those dollars would have been spent on teacher salaries (a win for Districts who would rather pay their teachers than WEA Trust, but not actually "savings").
The union knows (or it is deceiving itself) that WEA Trust no longer offers a competitive product. Take a look at Districts in Dane, Green, and Rock counties and you will not find many that are still with WEA for health insurance. Contrary to union rhetoric, these changes were not forced by Districts - they were all made at the bargaining table and agreed to by union members. WEAC members across the state (especially in these three counties) have decided that they would rather have their District pay salary increases to teachers than annual insurance rate increases to WEA. If the union wants to keep WEA insurance, then fine. To feign surprise at the realization that this means potential salary decreases going forward (to pay for the annual cost increases) is disingenuous.

thediplomat - I don't get it. Have the teachers not been in school because of this, or were you just trying to be funny?

The teachers can go back to work. The government took care of health insurance last night ;-) Sorry I couldn't resist.

lovemycountry: WEAC didn't lobby against for Q.E.O. this year. They fought against it since its implementation in 1993. They spent dues that their members contributed. All teachers benefit from settlements, so dues get paid. This notion the WEAC is paid by taxpayer dollars is wrong; how do you spend your money? Since we are telling each other how to spend earned money, Tom Barrett's campaign is looking for some dollars.

RetiredGM - You sound a lot like a poster whose had a bunch of user accounts deleleted over the past few months. First Pete, then Hank, then SSNancy, then Bradykohl and now you are trying to pretend that you retired from GM. Get a life.

Hey (RetiredGM)-** The Milton Teachers Union believes in leaving children behind or off the radar when they discuss the Union job performance. I love this statement! I'm going to apply that sentence to your retired job. "The UAW Union believes in ignoring their vehicle products and sales, or off the radar when discussing auto worker performance!" It looks like your kettle is blacker than black!!!!

darwin1 – By the way, I said if students (plural) fail a test, not student (singular). Using your logic, a doctor is only responsible for ordering diagnostics tests not interpreting what they mean.

RetiredDimwit, how did you come up with that score? Did you use the same half logic and no facts that you used in your previous posts? What were your criteria? No wonder you don't like teachers, you can then blame them for your ignorance.

3 strikes and you're out, right? OK -let's look at GM's 3 latest gripes.... (I did my homework for this one, unlike GM)

1. Milton teachers, in fact, have been recently praised at Board meetings for writing their own online curriculum for several core academic classes. Strike one.

2. Milton teachers use a variety of methods to explain concepts in classes. If you doubt it, I heard that some publish their lessons online. I checked a couple out. Did you? Strike two

3. Milton students earn a large number of academic awards. In fact they even hold an academic awards ceremony each year. Students earn National Merit Scholarships, have a very high success rate at AP tests, and win dozens of other regional and national scholarship awards. Strike 3 - 'yer out!

---

To the reader and my fellow comment makers on this topic: It is time to stop arguing with Retired GM. His claims are baseless ranting - which is certainly his right in a free and open society - but it is useless to argue with a closed mind. Shouting back at him only reduces us to his level. I just hope the readers recognize the complete fallacy of his claims, lest he corrupt those looking for truth. With that - goodbye on this topic.

Retired-GM
Mar 17, 2010 at 1:38 p.m.
Suggest removal
Why is it that so many of the people posting things off topic about me, and my fellow GM coworkers can not stay on topic of these Public sector positions.
No one is talking about your fellow coworkers. You opened your mouth mocking your old GM union. Now your blaming the guy who cleaned the toilets.
RetiredGM- Why did you go to GM instead of teaching? Imagine what you could have achieved in those 30 years.
Don't think you retired from GM. Even wonder if you ever worked.
I think you missed this question the last 7 or 8 times now?

RetiredGM, you brought up the issue of performance earlier. This is what administrators are supposed to do - assess teacher performance. You want student performance to act as a proxy for teacher performance. This will never happen because no one can prove it is effective - I repeat no one. There is NO scientific evidence to support such an idea - you're just selling snake oil because your cheap and don't want to pay taxes.

Retired GM, I feel the education I received was second to none from Milton. Of course, I also had the desire to learn and go on to college. If I sat around all night playing video games and eating pizza and failed a test, the last person I would have blamed is a teacher. I never had a bad experience in Milton and my brothers, sisters and wife can all say the same thing. So I think they are doing a great job, regardless of what people like you say.

justsomeone, by your logic then student aren't responsible for much of anything including grades.

darwin1 – Get a clue. If students (plural) fail a test, it is most certainly because of the teacher. Either the material was not communicated clearly enough, the test was too ambiguous, the assessment method did not fit the material being taught, the assessment method did not touch on all the different styles of learning, etc. It is up to the teacher to use that information to assess WHY the students failed, not to punish them because of it.

darwin1- lobbying I don't have a problem with as lobbying is a right granted by the 1st amendment. I'm referring to WEAC surpisrisingly not acting in the best interests of education excellence. And they call the shots of these local unions. For example, WEAC sued to close a 700-studet virtual school where parent satisfaction and student achievement were high. (Burmaster v. Johnson). For the teacher's union, it's about the money, not the children.

Yes, DizzyGirl you are a good example of how teachers shouldn't be responsible for ignorant lazy people such as yourself. If students fail a test, it means they are under peforming and not the teacher.

loveyourcountry, the Conservative, Supreme Court ruled that corporations both for profit and not have a Constitutional right to free speech. This includes WEAC. So, although you say you love your country your behavior says otherwise.

kara--I don't know. I didn't count. You read how many comments? No life, I assume. Quit whining about whether or not people like to post, and go sleep it off. You're what the sober world calls a "hypocrite."

markr, you posted how many times? No life I assume. good night folks. Try prying your selves away from the computer.

The teacher's union in WI (WEAC) spent over a $1.5M in '09 lobbying to get more of our tax money. (using our tax money from teacher's dues). WEAC is the largest lobbyist in the state, it's time to get back our educational system from this powerful lobbyist group. It starts with saying no more tax increases - we can't afford it.

Jojo2010: Now, now. :)

Now I get it...Retired GM, you must be good ole' Al.

RetiredBS get your facts straight - No they don't. When crime was high in NYC they hired more police not fewer and they didn't fire all the police officers. When someone dies on the operating table the surgeon still gets paid. Doctors are responsible if their patients smoke or are obese? What planet do you live on?

If there is a problem with a teacher, then you should probably talk to those in charge of managing them - administrators Those people probably ignore you too because they know like everyone else that you don't know what you are talking about. And again, why not make the parents accountable for THEIR children? They get a child tax credit for them, so why not make it contingent on how well they are doing in school.

What exactly is the student responsible for? If the teacher is responsible, they why should the student even bother to read or study? Its the teacher's fault. Good luck with that.

Please what is your plan for evaluating teachers that is based on science and researched facts? Please enlighten us all with your knowledge. What is your assessments validity? What are your reliability numbers?

Retired-GM
Mar 17, 2010 at 1:38 p.m.
Suggest removal
Why is it that so many of the people posting things off topic about me, and my fellow GM coworkers can not stay on topic of these Public sector positions.
No one is talking about your fellow coworkers. You opened your mouth mocking your old GM union. Now your blaming the guy who cleaned the toilets.

RetiredGM- Why did you go to GM instead of teaching? Imagine what you could have achieved in those 30 years.
Don't think you retired from GM. Even wonder if you ever worked.
I think you missed this question the last 6 or 7 times now?

RetiredDimwit, exactly how does your little assessment prove anything? Solve a problem three different ways? Again, what does that prove except that your extremely self-righteous and ignorant. Maybe you should apply the same principle to your comments? I find it sad that one union member is so quick to back-stab another, however, it doesn't surprise me since that day has passed and now you seem to want to pull everyone down to your ignorance.

Yes, we should make teachers responsible for the behavior of children. If the student doesn't do their homework, doesn't study for a test the teacher should be fired. Now we should apply this same pile of crap idea to police officers, people break the law they should have reduced pay or fined. If GM cars are recalled, RetireGM should lose its pension. If people die, nurses should have their pay docked. Doctors and lawyers the same, otherwise, your idea isn't really a good one and your just being cheap and ignorant. Of course we should never expect parents to be responsible for their children's behavior.

kara--notice your horror at the whole situation didn't stop you from commenting. :-) Shame on the gazette for allowing us to particiapte, but not on you for doing so???

oh my gosh, do realize you guys/gals have been at this for a week? A week today. Shame on the gazette for letting this nonsense go on. Anything for numbers I guess. I hope everyone got outside and enjoyed the weather, not glued bantering back and forth on here.

retired gm--If that's all you got from dorn's post, then all of those years of hiding away for 8 or 9 hours a day in the plant, swilling whiskey out of a flask while the supervisors wondered where you were, must have impaired your reading comprehension abilities. Have another snort, old fella, and whine some more about how your 5000.00 a month pension leaves you poor and grouchy.

GM - you pay the least, get the best results around on standardized tests (or darn near the best - again see DPI website) and still gripe. Amazing!

dornm: Perfectly said. Now if anyone refers to the Milton Teachers Association without calling it by its name, Milton Education Association, you can simply ignore the response.
I also educate Milton's youth. Not perfect. C'mon down and check it out versus ignoring and spouting. Lunch nearly over...

fanoffun - i was not directing people moving towards teacher, but do as you wish again. I don't think you mind that people will take anything, you probably prefer sweat shops? Insurance companies can be controlled, but we know pockets are being lined, and thats where unions protect.

lovemycountry
Mar 19, 2010 at 10:20 a.m.

"stubby - trying to compare levy rates is what Brodhead attempted. Here's a new idea- the levies of the other districts are too high ! It's time to stop throwing an increasing share of our income to public schools for education results that are declining relative to the rest of the world."

Perhaps you missed my point, which was that if having a low tax rate is one factor in attracting residents and businesses, then Milton is in the lead already. Further cuts aren't necessary. BTW...Brodhead - $8.45. Still higher than Milton.

Mouse - I apologize, I didn't touch on your second question. Yes, some people will move where the benefits are better.

With Teachers, their benefits are being lowered in almost every district. This has been the number one topic in school budgets. So the question is, does a teacher move to let's say Fort Atkinson to get better benefits and give up seniority and risk their budget cuts the next year or stick where they are and adapt to their new benefits ? I would think, IMO, a sound business decision is to stick where I am, knowing what I got and gain seniority is better than a new position, lower on the seniority list, and at risk of either being cut position wise or benefit wise.

Teachers have to realize this isn't a economy or job market that they can say pay or I leave. Are they saying that, no. But it is an employer market right now. You do what you have to do to keep on working. If not, there is someone that will take your job that is just as qualified but has been out of work and willing to accept what ANY employer will give them.

Mouse - I agree the insurance companies are out of control. But I am just one of their millions of clients. Meaning I have little to no control over what they do or how they operate.

But I am a tax payer toward this district, therefore I have a vote which gives me a little control of the outcome. I am just one voice, but by casting a vote my voice is heard.

stubby - trying to compare levy rates is what Brodhead attempted. Here's a new idea- the levies of the other districts are too high ! It's time to stop throwing an increasing share of our income to public schools for education results that are declining relative to the rest of the world.

fanoffun - an intelligent response! I'll address one point. According to the DPI website for 2009-10 levy rates (https://www2.dpi.state.wi.us/safr_ro/all...) we have the following: (tax per $1000 assessed value)

Milton - $7.91
Beloit - $8.24
Janesville - $8.62
Parkview - $8.63
Edgerton - $9.15
Turner - $10.01
Evansville - $10.49
Clinton - $11.05

Milton has the "low tax" (at least relative to other Rock County districts) to be attractive.

For the extended area:

Madison $10.18
Verona $11.71
Stoughton $8.70
Oregon $10.94
Fort Atkinson $9.70
Whitewater $9.60
Mcfarland $10.95
Monona Grove $12.10
Cambridge $12.20
Deerfield $11.03
Jefferson $8.82

The numbers say that Milton is the lowest mill rate in the area.

fanoffun10 - At no point do you blame insurance companies for financial problems? Ever consider people might move to get better benefits?

The teacher's union spent a great deal of union dues money lobbying to get rid of QEO. (WEAC spent over $1.5M in 2009 lobbying Madison. And 19 hours per day). Their argument was teacher's pay shouldn't be limited by state regulations.
-
Now, the market should drive other changes to teacher's compensation. There are teachers out of work and new teachers lining up to take positions. The market says this is when pay and benefits begin dropping somewhat.

dornm - Very good post. I agree and respectfully disagree with your post.

Changing and/or cutting insurance now does save us tax payers money off every annual budget. Is this to say that next year there won't be another budget shortage ? Just like you, we hope not. But we can't promise that to be honest.

This is going to be like the "What came first, the chicken or the egg" debate. Yes, schools needs to attract more students, for more money. But to attract new students, you need low taxes and a good enviroment for "new" businesses. The more business doors that open, the better chance for more students as families move into the district for employment.

The problem is businesses are closing. People are being put out of work. People are losing their houses. People are moving to where their is work. Good schools or not, people are following the jobs.

I do agree that rankings are what the reader makes them. I don't place much value in them. So I do agree with you.

dornm - Well said.

(Part II)

This whole debate has turned attention away from the real problems surrounding education today. It has become "us vs. them", whether that be teachers vs board, public vs. schools, or whatever. Fact is we have a responsibility and a passion to give every student who walks though our door the best possible education. Since 1993, we have been doing this under revenue controls that have caused districts across the state, including Milton, to cut away all the "fat". We are lean machines - and cutting back more only hurts everyone. The Board wants to give our kids the best, but is hog-tied by regulation and is making impossible decisions. Asking what to cut at this point is like asking you if you'd rather lose your arm at the elbow, or your foot at the ankle. Next year it gets worse. You say "cut the benefits", but that only fixes one year. Next year another deficit. Now we cut staff. Eventually we hamstring ourselves with this process. Look around - cuts simply lead to more cuts. It is time to stop.

**

The other night at the Board meeting, I spoke and encouraged all in attendance to seize the opportunity to invest in education now. It won't be easy. Stopping the cuts, though, will make Milton a stronger school, and more attractive to people moving to the area and choosing open enrollment options. Like it or not, the way the State plays the game is "more students = more funding". So we have to attract more students. Cuts won't do that.

**

So that is my essay tonight. Sorry I didn't respond in the afternoon when you posted, but I was working. Teaching. That is what I do, and I hope you can support it. (I will not be posting on this topic again....that is all folks!)

Perhaps it is foolish to answer RetiredGM - as somebody said before, we are not to feed the trolls, and I'm sure this post will be followed by some nasty personal attacks (as has been the case for Shelly Kress), but just in case someone takes RetiredGM seriously, or thinks he has any valid points, I thought I'd try to set the record straight.

**

For the record, I am a Milton Teacher and have been for 15 years. I'm also a district parent and taxpayer. I was thrilled when I was hired in Milton - the reputation was excellent, and chose to move to the district when I had children because of the fact that my colleagues were (and are) the best I've ever worked with . Am I a perfect teacher? Hardly....but like all good professionals I know that nobody ever "arrives" at perfection, but through innovation and continual effort, one can always find ways to be better.

**

Now - RetiredGM has been making a lot of noise about being a "top 100" school. Aside from some imaginary systems made up by national magazines for the purpose of selling said magazines, there simply is no such thing. Even for those few foolish enough to take the rankings seriously, one rarely sees a true public school that is not a charter or magnet school on the list. It is asking community schools like Milton to compete with a magnet school for the Milwaukee area that only take the top 1% of students from other schools. It is easy to get top performance when you only have the very best and brightest. What is not easy is what public schools across Rock County do every day - and that is take every student from every situation: Smart, struggling, special needs, English language learners, rich, poor, from impossible home situations and from great homes, (I could go on and on) and put them in one classroom and provide every single one of them with the opportunity to learn and the attention necessary to accomplish that goal.

**

We measure our success not by spurious national rankings, but one student at a time. If I can get little Johnny, who had a breakfast of Mountain Dew, to learn to apply one process in Geometry today, that is a win. I'm sure most teachers in the area would agree. If RetiredGM wants numbers, I would suggest researching the DPI website where he can peruse all of our test results. Perfect? Nope. But we usually test about 6-8% above state average for "Advanced" scores on tests. As a teacher, I would suggest you do some of that research for yourself.

**

I will not get caught up in all the very negative comments about "lazy" and "worthless" teachers. I'd simply invite you to come in and see what we do for a week - even job shadow if you think that is the case. I'm satisfied that we earn our keep every day, and with the help of a generally very supportive administration.

**

(continued....)

You are the one that brought it up not me, quote "there are so mant mispellings and wrong uses of language in your posts"

If you are going to judge based on a standard and then fail at the same standard what does that show?

RAF, a typo is different than not understanding basic language (they're vs. there vs. their, affect vs. effect, etc.). Get a clue.

lighting just struck my house

Well, I do agree with you on that one RAF.

I agree they (rights) are all not there from the beginning. But when someone states something as a right erroneously (sourced), they deserve to be corrected. There are too many people that do not understand underlying documents and declare things as rights all the time, regardless of the truth behind the reason.

RAF, First and foremost, I would like to sincerely thank you for serving our country. I truely honor your 20-30 years of service & sacrifice to uphold our countries rights. So when you talk about constitutional rights, I believe it's from the heart. You just have to remember that all "Rights" are not written in stone. They are a starting point, our forefathers always intended laws to be reworked. We have the "right" (For the Pursuit of Happiness), it doesn't say you are going to be happy here, it just states that you always have an opportunity to find happiness. This isn't a road map, or a how to document. It is an enabling device for all, to choose their own path! So the path to education is extremely broadened by it's scope and interpretation. I believe 1869, freed black men were given the right to vote. However, states passed laws stating that a freed black slave only counted as 3/4 of a man. So their votes would not count, even though they had the "Right" too! Black men did not actually start voting until, I believe 1962. That's almost a hundred years after they were actually given the constitutional right to vote! Just an example of a "Right" that was never fully embraced by people.

I would say it is included because the Air Force was called the The United States Army Air Corp. from 1926-1941.

" In the US Constitution there is no specific statement that you have the right to free speech."
-
lol...for a researcher, as you claim, surely you can do better than this...

The bill of rights is vastly different from the Wisconsin constitution. For example in Wisconsin you are guaranteed the right to fish and hunt, this is provided by the state and spelled out plainly. This right is completely different than speech.

The bill of rights tells the government it's limits, it does not grant you a right. It protects what you already have from the government taking it away. To your remark on free speech. This is the reason it doesn't say you have it,because the first amendment doesn't give you anything. The first amendment limits government from taking something from you.

A little bit of reading might help you.

" all branches except yours is mentioned. Yours is specifically not mentioned."
-
And? Who said it was? Little hint for poor darwin, there was no such thing an airplane at that time either...

darwin you did say exactly that; "As I have said before, education is a part of the state constitution. It is a right."

Your words are incorrect, education is not part of the constitution as a right. It was deemed a right by a court, not the constitution as you stated.

curtaincall, you got me there. You are so witty.

raf, let me explain in the simplest terms possible. The courts interpret the law and the Constitution. I repeat, the courts interpret the law and the Constitution. Did that sink in? Constitutions spell out the role of governments: limitations and duties. In the US Constitution there is no specific statement that you have the right to free speech. It says something like, "Congress shall make no law that..." So, YOU can make the point all you want, your point is irrelevant to the realty that this state is required to provide all (including illegal immigrants) children with an education. Changing the Constitution would solve the problem.

RAF, try reading as others have pointed out. I never said what you claim. However, you did say in another blog post that the military is in the Constitution. Yes, all branches except yours is mentioned. Yours is specifically not mentioned. Blogs aren't government funded, however, this blog is run by a corporation which is Article XI of the Wisconsin Constitution.

"Darwin 1, you rock."

Off his rocker, maybe.

I need to apologize to some of my fellow forumites for the fact that I've forgotten a basic rule of comments: DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

raf is never going to get it. He just does not have the ability to understand what he reads.

Reliable_Source if you deem the word retired in a username to equate to an age you're sorely out of touch with any reliable source.

Markr yes reading the history of rights could be enlightening, but the act does not change the current question of the written constitution or my comments about it. There is a court finding that declared education is a right, but the constitution does not declare it, what is so hard to understand about that?

"there are so mant mispellings and wrong uses of language in your posts that I wonder if you went to school at all. Are you an example of what the public schools turn out?"
-
dtb, yes I wonder the same of you. Is there something of relevance you wish to add or was a grammar and spelling test it. By the looks of things you have no room to talk. Yes you did correct the word "many" from "mant" but your great objectivity missed how to spell misspelling...how very ironic.

I can't wait till "RetiredAirForce" & "RetiredGM" can't remember what they said an hour ago! You guys are so out of date with the times!!! Go read your NewsWeek magazine with a magnifying glass and keep your irrelevant comments to your VA meetings! I'm not a soldier hater, I'm a idiot hater!!!!

darwin1 you’re focusing is failing you again. You are the one that stated it was a right because it was in the constitution. If you don’t like the facts perhaps you need to hire a better researcher before you provide comments.

Please show where I said the Air Force was mentioned in the constitution…

Blogs don’t exist in the constitution yet somehow they magically exist too, so? This baseless point makes as little sense as yours, of course the sarcasm behind it is sure to go over your head.

RetireGM, if your so concerned then let the students take a vote on the issue. When I was in school every student knew who the good teachers were. Ask the customers.

Darwin 1, you rock.

So, this is what it has come to. RAF, saying that because something is in the Constitution that doesn't mean it is a right. RAF if you are correct, then file suit and see how far you get. Nowhere. It is much easier to whine and cry and stomp your feet than it is to do something. The Air Force doesn't exist in the US Constitution, yet somehow magically the Air Force exists. Oh, I am sorry, you probably don't believe the courts are in the Constitution.

RetiredGM, you are clearly brainless. Again, you know who the good coaches are but don't know who the good teachers are - imagine that. You're just another right wing dimwit who doesn't know anything about history. The founders intentionally left god out of the Declaration and specifically used Creator because they were SECULARISTS. But evidently, you don't know this fact because you are ignorant.

Retired-GM
Mar 17, 2010 at 1:38 p.m.
Suggest removal
Why is it that so many of the people posting things off topic about me, and my fellow GM coworkers can not stay on topic of these Public sector positions.
No one is talking about your fellow coworkers. You opened your mouth mocking your old GM union.
Retired-GM
Mar 15, 2010 at 11:49 a.m.
Suggest removal
justsaynotomath
Sorry if you overlooked one on my posts but I do have a Degree in Elementary Education paid for by GM. So yes I do have a leg to stand on. I know of several other of my fellow GM coworkers that have Degrees in Education but decided GM was a better life as well. GM worked with my plans for me for 30 years which I truly enjoyed without one complaint.
I can tell the Milton Teachers can not say the same about their careers, and it is not because the Teachers do not have it great.Most of the unrest comes from the unoin boss.

You decided GM was a better life... They we're your words.

You quote "I can tell the Milton teachers can not say the same about their careers" Are you freaking psychic too

The constitution is clear. The only people that say interpretation is required are those that want to change existing wording or twist the wording. That includes judges.

RetiredGM *Why is it that so many of the people posting things off topic about me, and my fellow GM coworkers can not stay on topic of these Public sector positions.

Because your argument is stupid, and a lot of your GM coworkers think like you do! The only reason you give a rats ass, is because of the impact to your property taxes. GM and it's coworkers have been so great to Detroit, Mi. that their school system is almost extinct! Thank God their are fewer and fewer, narrow-minded, self-entitled GM people in this town!

You know whats messed up? My Dad graduated from High School and two weeks later he was hired to work for General Motors (circa 1970). My dad said he was making almost $8,000 more than the teachers in his school.

How many people with "retired" in their username would support a tax increase for our schools? None of you!

Let me correct a statement that I made...I said Courts decide certain rights, not the constitution. What I really mean is that courts decide some rights, in accordance with the premises put forth in the constitution.

RAF--also, your argument about paraplegics is specious. This is not a matter of rights vs. no rights. It's like asking, "If my wife won't let me go out with another woman, have my rights been usurped?" Childish illogic in a futile attempt to win an argument that you cannot win, because you are wrong. Study the concepts of Divine, Natural, and Legal Rights. You have a lot to learn. Thanks

Sorry. raf, but you are the one who missed the point. A state DOES NOT have to declare anything to be a right in order for it to be a right. Many, many previously undeclared rights emanate from those which are declared. COURTS decide these rights, NOT the constitution. The Bill of Rights in the US constitution explicates 10 rights, but every American has far more than just the 10 addressed.

Check that - many.

RAF, there are so mant mispellings and wrong uses of language in your posts that I wonder if you went to school at all. Are you an example of what the public schools turn out?

RetiredGM - let's go back and retrieve the $2000 car discounts you enjoyed, and retro back your income during the government bailout. Didn't tax payers give you that? A lot of your co-workers tried hard. For 30 years you could have been a teacher for kids, and gave someone else a chance to work at GM.

RetiredGM - So do you support the elimination of Social Security, Medicare etc...???

RetiredGM- Why did you go to GM instead of teaching? Imagine what you could have achieved in those 30 years.
Don't think you retired from GM. Even wonder if you ever worked.
I think you missed this question the last 5 time now?

I will clarify. I look at it more as a right in terms of what the kids are preached at today in school. The schools tell them they are entitled to a free and appropriate education(through h.s.) and they need to take advantage of it.

jvilledr, don't you dare lump me in with RAF, IF you can not answer my question then rein in your anger and DON'T post. IF you can answer my question great. IT was a question. I feel its a right.

Retired GM: I'm a WEAC member, on my Iphone, at lunch. I'd love Obamacare! Actually, I want single-payer health care. Bring it on! You know, like your Medicare.

jvillerdr the constitution does state free, yet districts charge fees to students. So as we can see what it says is manipulated by the courts. That does not change the fact of what is written, as I have said from the beginning.

RAF, I'm checking out of this debate now, so don't take my lack of checking on your further babbling as concession of any of your points. Some of us have lives and better things to do than keep debating something with someone who can't understand the basic concept of what language in a constitution expressly creates a right.

RAF, you are so wrong it is not even funny. Rights do not just include negative rights, but affirmative rights. The dictionary says they include a just claim to something under the law. The constitution says the states have to create schools and they have to be free. You are way, way, off base and you should have abandoned this loser of an argument long ago. And forget about trying to distract us with the right to travel. You are wrong on the points you tried to make and that is all there is to it.

markr, for sake of conversation lets discuss the right to travel.

Rights are essentially freedoms that preclude others, people or government, from inhibiting you. The right to travel for does not require action or outlays by anyone else. How does the right to travel effect a paraplegic? Does there right to travel require action by others? If they cannot travel have their rights been diminished?

The state constitution created the frame work for an education system. Protected the rights for transporting school children and the right for use of facilities to groups after school hours. It did not however declare education a right.

RAF and curtain call, if you can't concede the simple point that the language we've been discussing that is in the constitution describes a right as that term is commonly defined, then you are so far out of touch with reality that no one should pay any attention to anything that you post. I think what you really want to argue that it shouldn't be a right, in which case you should put your energy into lobbying the legislature (or, if you think the courts are wrong, filing a lawsuit based on your oh-so-well-grounded arguments), not trying to justify a blatantly indefensible interpretation of the English language.

markr, I agree, though in this case, it isn't even necessary to imply the right because it is specifically spelled out in the constitution even if the word "right" isn't used. The state constitution says the legislature has to create schools and they have to be free to all kids. A "right" is defined by a common dictionary as "that which is due to anyone by just claim, legal guarantees, moral principles, etc." According to the constitution, free admission to schools is due to all kids. That is a legal right that is expressly provided in the constitution - it is not something that has to be derived by implication.

o.k. why if it is not a right, why do the schools stress to parents and kids a like that it is a right?

Is it that its not so much a right but a law.

anyone feel free to answer.

markr, you missed the point. It was said it is a right (now) because it is included in the Wisconsin constitution.

This is the problem with our country and education system. Article one of the state constitution specifically lists declaration of rights, education is not one of them; other than the two thinly veiled references to transportation of school children and use of facilities.

Yours or the courts interpretation does not change the wording of the constitution. If the original delegates or through many changes the legislature has performed wanted education a right it would be included, as defined in article one. If you don't like it and want it changed and reflected as a right, petition your representative to have it changed, as it is written now it is not a right.

RAF is absolutely wrong in his assumption that if a right isn't spelled out as such in the constitution, it is not really a right. A simple search uncovers hundreds of articles outlining the history of rights arising from court rulings, FAR more than the small handful of rights elucidated in the constitution. Just as one example, there is no mention of the right to travel in either the U.S. or the Wisconsin constitution. But the courts have held, since their inception, that this is indeed a right. There are hundreds of rights not elucidated. Generally, most actions and activities, in fact, ARE held to be rights until and unless successfully challenged in court.

RAF, when the constitution says that the Legilsature shall create schools and the tuition shall be free to all kids 4-20, that is a right. The courts are just restating the obvious -- or at least, what is obvious to everyone else. Stop trying to justify your misreading and misunderstanding of the constitution.

I know exactly who darwin1 is, all you have to do is read the posts and then compare it to Evansvillehousewife. Same anger and bitterness.

"The courts have held this is a right"
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Does the constitution declare it as a right? No. Exactly as I said.

RAF, who are you calling ignorant? Article X provides "The legislature shall provide by law for the establishment of district schools, which shall be as nearly uniform as practicable; and such schools shall be free and without charge for tuition to all children between the ages of 4 and 20 years . . . . " The courts have held this is a right: "Having established the right to an education, the state may not withdraw the right" unelss it proves misconduct. Remer v. Burlington Area School Dist, 149 F. Supp. 2d 665 (2001). Of course, the present right could be changed by constitutional amendment.

‘darwin1 education is a right in the Wisconsin state constitution? I would ask you if you read it before you made your remark, but to be honest, it is a rhetorical question. There are two rights, as described by the state constitution close to education; first addressing transportation of school children and second directing use of school facilities…but that is it under Article one declaration of rights, no right to education as you think it says.

Article 10 does cover education structure but again this is not a right…

As I have said before, education is a part of the state constitution. It is a right. So, if a parent thinks the school isn't educating their child they can send them to a private school, file suit against the district and the district will have to pay. It has happened many times before. So, good luck.

Some of you guys just want to believe that all teachers are so rich. As I said, when my husband was teaching, we could barely make ends meet. He didn't work for one of those cush districts in the Milwaukee burbs where the teachers do make obscene amounts of money, he worked for a small rural district and got less in pay for 14 years teaching experience than most of the manufacturing workers made in the town. (And he DID have to work summers teaching summer school.) The manufacturing families kids laughed at him because they (the teenage kids) drove better cars than he did. That's why I went back to work in the private sector and got him to stop giving our time to kids whose families weren't willing to pay anything for trying to educate their supposedly precious kids. I think we should privatize high school for everyone -- pay if you can, if not, go to tech school or get a job. Then, RAF, you can send your grandkids to be taught by an "instructor," not a college-educated teacher, and see what kind of jobs they qualify for.

I think teachers have ideas, most of them are smarter than a fifth grader.

When I was a Union Steward, we would request information from other such communities. We would use this information to show where we were lagging behind (pay, benefits, holidays, etc.). If Milton did this, they would see that schools are voting teachers and administrative positions off the island.

Now would be a GREAT time to get ahead of that ball as a Union and collectively take cuts instead of one to four people losing their jobs.

If the teacher's Union isn't meeting regularly, they are turning their heads to the problem. Because as you can read, the tax payers are talking about it daily. And daily there are new ideas being discussed. Let me just say, "Don't leave your career in the hands of the Union". Be pro-active and think independently to come up with some collective ideas. Don't be afraid of hurting someone's feelings. It's better to hurt their feelings than cut their career short.

curtaincall, who are these teachers? Who? Can you name anyone? You claimed some teacher got into trouble with the DPI before but failed to mention any details that would prove you weren't just another right wing liar. If this person was punished, it would be a part of the public record. So, what is this ONE persons name? You make ignorant comments with no facts or details. How exactly did you get through school. YOU are the slacker.

queenb, and the rest of the dimwits are angry because they made poor choices and now instead of taking responsibility and trying to better themselves, they like most crazy right wingers want to simply pull everyone else down into their web of anger and unhappiness.

meekrat, exactly.

thank you.

REliablesource, you know better than that. There is always caps on insurance benefits, and monetary benefits.

Quite simply they have to do something different than what they are.

TOO many teachers are truly slackers, WHILE MANY teachers are EXCELLENT. IT'S not fair to those who come to school every day and put 100% in.

IT is not a matter of will schools around here ever start to have merit pay but when. It will happen.

BUT also there needs to be something similar put in place for administrators.

A school is only as good as its leader.

Seems odd that Milton wants to use hindsight against the teachers when they turned down the teacher's offer to freeze their own pay; how much would that have SAVED Milton IF the City had accepted it? Everybody wants to whipsaw somebody with the "healthcare" topic-even in a community where their Children are dropping like flies from Heroin ODs. Perhaps bringing awareness to that ^ topic is better energy spent.

Here's my beef with (curtaincall,RetiredGM,RetiredAirForce). If we could apply all of your wonderful ideas, like for instance "Performance Pay". Let's say they are making the grade and actually over achieving. All of a sudden Milton Schools are telling their tax payers, "The teachers are doing so well, that we need more money from you, to cover benefits they have earned." And we all know most retired people vote NO for school referendums or anything that directly impacts their property taxes. So quit bad mouthing the teachers, and look in the mirror, because it's angry old geezers like you guys, who inevitably cripple our school systems. I've said to my daughter, that "if the older generation doesn't support your schooling, 10 years from now when you can vote, you don't have to support their causes either." And you really need her to get a good education, more than ever before. Otherwise whose paying into the system to cover the cost of some person wiping your BUTT!!!!

Lets look at this from a more intelligent argumentative point. The Teachers have a Union, like I have a Union. I have to pay for health insurance that I don't even need, because my wife's company already pays for our health coverage. So why won't the union let me discontinue coverage? Because the Union charges me $900 a month and real cost to them is only $600 dollars per person. That is a net of $300 dollars a month for the union! So if you try to reduce a health plan, then you are reducing the amount of money that the Union receives! The teachers realize that if their Union is getting less compensation from insurance, then they will increase some other fees to make up the difference (i.e. monthly membership fees, percentage of payroll fee, etc.) Because Union administrations are the last to concede any monies! So this can directly impact a teachers net paycheck, but so what! In the private sector, we get told that changes are inevitable. Like it or not, this is the choice we made for you. Why do teachers think they should be owed more than their students' parents who are exposed to real economic conditions everyday! I'm just sayin'!!!!

Let's bash teacher, they are bad. Let's praise insurance companies, the good people. And God bless the great system we have, that makes us rely on Jerry Lewis every year to support sick kids in the USA. What a great organized bunch of medical insurance garbage. GO USA.

RetiredGM- Why did you go to GM instead of teaching? Imagine what you could have achieved in those 30 years.
Don't think you retired from GM. Even wonder if you ever worked.
I think you missed this question the last 4 time now?

Perhaps the teachers should start paying for their health care, including the retirees!

Stubby - You posted this in reply to RetiredGM – “RetiredGM writes "Simple we Have Parents on one side with their children wanting quality education, and on the other side we have Teachers, and the Teacher's Union Boss.”
Completely wrong in every way. We have everyone (except, perhaps, you and some of your cronies) on the side of wanting quality education. We parents, the teachers, the administration. All agree on that goal, and the teachers are probably working harder at it than just about anyone else. Your portrayal of teachers is a complete fantasy - a lie constructed to fit your angry agenda. Please seek mental health assistance. You have no grasp left of reality, I'm afraid.”
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Fortunately, you have obviously not sat in a parent/teacher conference and have the teacher tell you “my union only obligates me to . . “. Unfortunately, I have. Or maybe you have been fortunate not to have read an article printed in one of the Janesville high school newspapers where the teachers were interviewed regarding job actions that were taking place at the time. Unfortunately, I did read it. The article was interesting, but some of the teachers’ responses were slanted toward supporting the union rather than the students. I certainly hope that you have not or will never experience those situations, but please acknowledge that they do exist. Otherwise, you are the one living in fantasy land.

RetiredGM: Top 100, are you kidding? You do realize that there are thousands of school districts in the US. How about the Top 5000 that would be more realistic!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_sc...

As long as we're talking about accountability, let's not leave out the parents. Teachers can assign work and teach, but only parents can make them listen and do homework. Maybe parents of kids who don't do their homework should pay a penalty to the district each time to cover the potential loss of federal funds associated with their kids' poor performance.

retiregm, that is a good idea. They need to show some progress in academic growth before they keep asking for more, or asking for benefits that cost thousands more than what they need to be. Show some results. From what I read and after checking with the D.P.I., Milton has not done anything 'fantastic' in regards to academics. Pretty average, if not below in some areas of academics. Anyone can go on the D.P.I. website and see this or call them. Want good benefits and more money. Show us better grades, test results.

I am disturbed by a couple of your comments retiredgm, I hope you keep some of your racist tones away from your grandchild.

unfortunately all schools are under a huge budget crunch. I don't think they are crying wolf, and they are not alone.

My husband was a teacher until I persuaded him to stop and watch our child so I could go back to work and make some decent money. The deal is this: Yes, there are some horribly overpaid underworking teachers, but they are largely the ones in the wealthy suburbs of Milwaukee, etc., that have tons of dough to through at teachers to "get the best" to educate their upper-crust kids. In rural Wisconsin, a lot of teachers don't make crap. With 14 years experience, my husband was making considerably less than my sibling, who has no college education, was making in a manufacturing job in Janesville. Plus the insurance wouldn't pay for needed services for our child that my private insurance now provides. So those who are saying all teachers are overpaid are simply not recognizing that it varies widely, just like it does in the private sector. State government is a completely different situation -- where employees encouraged to spend our tax money like crazy just to justify their department's budgets for the next year.

Lets wait an see if this district actually has a budget shortfall before we go nuts. For the last 7 years this district has cried wolf, and every year they have money left over.

Maybe instead of chasing teachers over $671,000, we should all be looking at insurance companies that affect all of us. The companies who don't pay for a child with a hole in the heart or other birth defects. (Hiding under the pre-existig con.) Thats when we all rally to do a silent auction or other money maker to help pay. Everyone on here deserves medical, A teacher - ex GM worker - Wal-Mart workers. Somehow the insurance company's sit silent and plan our future health. This blog reminds me of a modern version of gladiators.

Welcome to the real world, where your insurance doesn't cover absolutely everything and you have to go to certain doctors!!! I don't think that you will garner much sympathy amongst the non-teachers with that argument....these are the issues that we have all been faced with for decades. Oh, wait....most of us have to pay for part of our insurance also. So not only do we have to use the coverage that our EMPLOYER chooses, we also get to help pay for it!!! And we don't get raises when our premiums go up or they raise our co-payments for office visits or prescriptions. With so many people out of work you should just be happy to have a job and insurance!

RetiredGM- Why did you go to GM instead of teaching? Imagine what you could have achieved in those 30 years.
Don't think you retired from GM. Even wonder if you ever worked.
I think you missed this question the last 3 time now?

I've been on both WEAC insurance and Dean Care at different times and they are not even close to equal. If they put teachers on Deancare they will have to increase salaries to pay for what Deancare doesn't cover.

darwin1, posting from work? Nice.

darwin1 your post are rubbish. Facts, obviously fact through your eyes, which makes them opinions, just like everyone else's. I hope to god you don't teach. Pretty scary attitude you have displayed on here. The more I read your posts the more it becomes clear you are scared. Maybe its your job that is on the chopping board, in terms of budget cuts.

RetiredGM- Why did you go to GM instead of teaching? Imagine what you could have achieved in those 30 years.
Don't think you retired from GM. Even wonder if you ever worked.
I think you missed this question the last 2 time?

RetiredGM writes "Simple we Have Parents on one side with their children wanting quality education, and on the other side we have Teachers, and the Teacher's Union Boss."

----

Completely wrong in every way. We have everyone (except, perhaps, you and some of your cronies) on the side of wanting quality education. We parents, the teachers, the administration. All agree on that goal, and the teachers are probably working harder at it than just about anyone else. Your portrayal of teachers is a complete fantasy - a lie constructed to fit your angry agenda. Please seek mental health assistance. You have no grasp left of reality, I'm afraid.

Ezoner. I met a rich teacher just the other day, summers off payed. Told her it was her fault we are in this mess. I said to her, you should not be teaching for profit. Asked her, what right she had to have a family and use a doctor of her own choice. Then I met a policeman, asked him same questions and blamed him for the mess we are in. (He was marrid to the teacher). Tell ya... them that serve us are so damn greedy, it's all there fault. They think that because they don't manufacture something,it gives them all the rights to a life.

Ezoner
Mar 16, 2010 at 10:05 a.m.
"Teachers need to take what they are given and accept their role"

----

Wouldn't want dem teachers gettin all uppity, now would we? (roll eyes)

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Whythink - great post.

Retired GM: Please start a private school and implement all of your philosophies. It is easy from the sidelines to know all that is best for everyone else, so put the tire to the pavement.
Generalizers about teacher's unions: I've been in one, and their the most democratic organization I've ever been in. Not having been in one, you wouldn't know.

RetiredGM
Mar 15, 2010 at 5:51 p.m.
Suggest removal It is plain, and simple. Union Teachers do not put the children first.
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At first I wanted to totally disagree with your comments but the more I think about the more I realize how unfair your comments are.

What profession, puts the client/customer first?

When given a choice, all professions/professionals want to negotiate the best deal for themselves. Some do it to the point that the customer/company suffers as a result.

Most teachers are willing to go above and beyond they contract to help each and every student succeed. It is rare to see a good teacher work just their contract hours and leave work without any 'homework.'

I will say this again, most teachers are willing to put their students first but also want the best for themselves/their family.

Truly, it is an almost impossible balancing act for all involved. Those simplifying the issue do not get it.

Superdave, please enlighten us. The UAW still exists, it was GM's mismanagement that was the problem. (Research shows that when unions and management work together productivity is higher than at non-union shops.) Toyota is an excellent example: I am sure that if GM had this problem you would somehow manage to blame the UAW. However, cars aren't mandated in the state constitution - education is. Teachers are not like other professionals in that they cannot start a private practice. They are bound to the building, even so called charter schools are bound to the district.

Here are several solutions. Eliminate busing. Many parents already drive their kids to school, however, the school still pays transportation costs regardless. These costs rise as energy costs rise. This brings us to another point: capital costs. Teacher pay and benefits are in large part stable whereas energy costs that heat buildings are not. These issues need to be dealt with before ignorant people start putting down intelligent people because they made bad choices.

Teachers need to take what they are given and accept their roles. If they are teaching to get rich, then they are in the wrong profession. Quite honestly, I can see where Unions help employees in corporate america. But Teachers work for the public, they are wokring in a non-profit environment. The idea is not for schools to make money but to not lose money while educating our children. So if the money isnt there, they need to contribute like the rest of the community and society and accept that for now the reductions, or limitations must be done for the greater good.

" I am now "crazy" "
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No. You have always been crazy. Figured a researcher with an advanced degree would understand the difference.

Teachers could learn something from the experiences of the UAW.

This isn't just a Milton issue. This is a national issue. It already is a local issue in many districts. The popular votes have forced School Boards to keep going back to the drawing board time after time. Voters are just saying "No".

Read the newspapers, news articles on the internet, and on local TV. Public spending is under the microscope. The tax payers are hurting and telling elected officials to keep cutting and to make sacrifices.

No one on here is out to put ANYONE out of work. EVERYONE on here has posted their own views influenced by their experiences, relationships to the subject, and education levels. If each one of us where a teacher, related to a teacher, or friends with a teacher we'd be fighting for them to keep what they have. I am not any of those, so I voice for them to take cuts. NONE of us are wrong in our views.

Children's education is very important. No one disputes that. MOST teachers are very caring and do the best they can. Teacher's put up with a lot of student issues in a day. Teacher's are teaching our future leaders. The people that are going to be taking care of us when we get older. I'm not out to take that away from teachers.

But times are tough right now. School Boards are faced with some serious financial issues. The first step is to ask tax payers to let them spend more. The next step is to go back and try making internal cuts. The third step is to start laying off. No one wants to see ANYONE out of work right now. The alternative is tax payers pay more or schools (Admin & teachers) take cuts. Because they can't give back new buildings, vehicles, equipt, or supplies. A good Union Steward, would be asking for everyone to take some cuts verses some people being laid off. After all, that is what a Union is all about, giving everyone a equal voice.

The school board should give a dollar figure to the Admin and teachers, not the Admin submit a budget to the school board. These are well educated people. Give them the figures and let them come up with some financial plans that would fit within the budget. Give the teachers the same decision making vote as the Admin. Let's see who gets voted off the island first.

Let me see, I am now "crazy" because I pointed out curtaincall and retireddimwit have not provided a single detail or fact to support their supposition or claims about teachers. None. Well, I think I have made my point about their lack of education, regardless of their claims. I am in fact not a teacher, I am a researcher who deals with statistical information.

The sad reality is that ignorant people like to bring smart people down. If they don't have something, then no one should. It is very childish.

Vigilandy you are exactly correct about parental involvement. For many, the teacher is merely a scapegoat for their lack of effort.

Vigilandy - I agree with you in part. Give parents 100% retirement and insurance for working 190 days and less than 35 hrs per week. Great concept.Reward those who impact kids the most. (tongue in cheek post only)

I don't mind the insurance. It's better than nothing. They offer incentives as well for staying healthy, losing weight, quitting smoking,
etc... It pays 100% for preventive care, 100% for well visits, vaccinations, some other items I just can't remember the different items. It really is not bad.

I do not care for the 20/80 split. I was glad when my employer upgraded. But our company has not given raises in over two years. But to me the insurance is a huge part of why I stay where I am.>( that and the job market.) But I also make less than the average teacher. I think they are fighting a losing battle. It's too much of a difference in $$$$ to not make the change. It can not be justified to not take the lower cost plan.

reliablesource, very good points. That is what it comes down to . Do these teachers want to retain the insurance they have, or do they want to retain their jobs. No job? No insurance. It should be a no brainer, hands down. Because in the end cuts will be made. Look at police unions around the state, officers are taking cuts. The state has a mandatory pay freeze at this time. Restricted travel. Cuts and job losses every where, teachers can be treated no different. AS for how much they paid. They start off better than the regular joe shmo and what teacher's fail to mention is how quickly they climb that salary scale. Their salary is one that esclates faster than most careers. With the exception of lawyers, doctors, and Ceo's. But you are not comparing apple to oranges either. Very different. Teachers do not get the pay of Nurses, Doctors, Lawyers, Judges, if they want that pay that is what they should have gone to school for. I make a nice living, but I started out making less than 15.00 a hour and I worked my way up, and I worked hard and at times worked close to 80 hours a week. My insurance? A 20/80split. My insurance today? A 20/80 split.

Oh come on CurtainCall, do not pick on the darwin1. When people can not get into college some may resort to buying a degree on line. That is clearly the case with the darwin1. Read some of his posts, yes there are many. But really read them. It is clear who he works for.. I wonder if he is being paid to keep up this banter on here. He is a disgrace to teacher's every where. I am sure they as well are wondering how to get him to shut up. By the way Gazette, seriously time to close the comments, way off course in many of these comments. Yes I know what ever would Darwin1 do with his day.

darwin1, I was told that is where you bought yours. This is not the t.v. show bewitch where you twitch that wicked nose of yours, and get your way. Sorry not going to happen. In the end the school is a business, and they are going to make cuts where needed, this is the easiest one as it does not effect the kids. If the teacher's don't like it they can go get a job in another sector, good luck with that.

I understand why the teachers are fighting this. Once you let them take something away, they always go back to the same well, again later on. But they have to be realistic. Their is a drastic reduction in overall funds available to the school district and it's not going to change for awhile. If the teachers have to agree to a reduction in coverage, then they should insist on being able to renegotiate a contract, when student enrollment reaches within 3% of an agreed upon number. And if the district can save over $600,00 (which we know is inflated), what's wrong with saving two-thirds of that money and using the other one-third to retain teachers and programs. Most people will make sacrifices for the good of others in a group! So the district saves $400,000, and Milton's Teachers could retain jobs with the other $200,000. Everybody concedes a part, and everyone benefits as a whole! It shouldn't come down to the almighty dollar, and it shouldn't possess short minded thinking! I'm just say'in!

Here is some research that might be an eye opener to some that whine about the "whining teachers":
-86% of the general public believe that support from parents is the most important way to improve schools.
-Lack of parental involvement is the biggest problem facing public schools.
-Decades of research show that when parents are involved students have:
-Higher grades, test scores, and graduation rates
-Better school attendance
-Increased motivation, better self-esteem
-Lower rates of suspension
-Decreased use of drugs and alcohol
-Fewer instances of violent behavior
If you want to know who comes to parent teacher conferences, it's the parents of the students who are INVOLVED! Probably not the ones "whining" about what teachers have for benefits on these posts. I can only assume that the real "whiners" must have struggling students due in part to. . . well, I think the research speaks for itself. . . You might want to try putting out a few books on the coffee table and turning off the "TV nanny" next time you decide to breed. Educational studies also show that might help some, as well. What might not be on the study are the adverse effects on education of parents who spend too much time blogging on the computer and not enough time with their kids.

RetiredGM... people like you should just move to Iran.. you would fit in well there. Now that my tax dollars baled your backside out. You are probley one of the idiots that went to dooles on triple time and bragged about it. I think teachers earn respect.. but as well, I think that they should as well pay the same as most do for insureance, and education does not have anything to do with a co pay stubby.. oh, by the way were do you teach stubby??? Most of you idiots on here dont get the point....... its the same insureance... just with a copay... I know, my friend is a milton teacher and this is a fact.. $600k buys alot of books etc.. Hey maybe the teachers can move in with retiredGM.. seems he has great insureance thanks to the tax payers. who baled them out.

Sure curtaincall, you got a 4.0. Then how come you don't know that anecdotal evidence is the worst form of evidence (It isn't allowed in a court of law). What college did you go to? Anyone can buy a degree online. Again, what have you proven? You threw out some acronyms and that proves something. You are the embarrassment. You and RetiredDimWit make blind accusations that reek of ignorance and then claim to have an education you clearly don't.

Yes, RetiredDW everyone is out to get you. The teachers are out to indoctrinate your children with facts, knowledge and thoughtfulness. They must be pure evil (I am being sarcastic).

Stubby – I suggest you do a little research on how blood borne pathogens are transmitted. Here is a sampling. For more information, http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factshe...
.
Exposures to blood and other body fluids occur across a wide variety of occupations. Health care workers, emergency response and public safety personnel, and other workers can be exposed to blood through needlestick and other sharps injuries, mucous membrane, and skin exposures. The pathogens of primary concern are the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), hepatitis B virus (HBV), and hepatitis C virus (HCV). Workers and employers are urged to take advantage of available engineering controls and work practices to prevent exposure to blood and other body fluids.
In the health care setting, workers have been infected with HIV after being stuck with needles containing HIV-infected blood or, less frequently, after infected blood gets into a worker’s open cut or a mucous membrane (for example, the eyes or inside of the nose).
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My post was not sarcasm. If people are unhappy with their chosen profession there are alternatives. I was just using your example.

Lets do it like this. I agree merit pay needed. Have the insurance work in tiers, the teachers have to maintain a certain level of job performance for each tier. Because not all teacher's are the same, they should not all get 'rewarded' with the same perks. Schools need to work harder to retain the great teachers and flush out the bad. Just because you have college degree does not mean you know what the heck you are doing, as shown by some of these teachers in public schools these days.

Dear Darwin1, sorry again wrong, 4.0 g.p.a. all through h.s. and dean's list all four years of college, and when I went back to CONTINUE my education I was not reimbursed. I also made the dean's list. You sound very uneducated. What a embarrassment your comments are to any teacher on here. The was a O.C.R. complaint filed, and one with the D.P.I. both found this teacher in violation. So many lazy, lazy teachers. Time for merit pay. Get rid of the lazy, reward the good.

darwin1, this teacher ended up in hot water over this. She was very lazy, and was not doing her job. IT IS THERE JOB TO ANSWER QUESTIONS. YOU just embarrassed ever teacher that's on here, with that stupid reply. That is exactly the problem people have with teachers.

RetiredGM - Does December 19, 2008 ring a bell? But I don't think you wanted to be part of that did you?

RetiredGM- Why did you go to GM instead of teaching? Imagine what you could have achieved in those 30 years.
Don't think you retired from GM. Even wonder if you ever worked.
I think you missed this question earlier?

curtaincall, the only one whining is you. Teachers don't respond because they undoubtedly get asked a million lazy questions every day. I have worked customer service and I cannot possibly answer every question because someone didn't read what they were supposed to. Your anecdote is just that and not proof of anything but your own dogma. You claimed the teachers aren't doing the job. Where is your proof? Where are your facts? You're just spouting accusations. I am guessing you didn't do so well in school.

In all honesty, there is a lot of scientific evidence that clearly shows the less education you have, the more of a drain on society you are. The police rarely deal with intelligent, thoughtful people. The less education you have, the more health problems you have. The more education you have, the more you make. So, we wouldn't have a tax problem except for the fact there are so many uneducated, low wage people living in Wisconsin. So, maybe we should have a dumb tax, otherwise aren't the smart subsidizing the dumb?

Again Stubby, well put.

Seriously, folks, can anyone here show me where in the article it says anything about teachers in Milton not getting the job done? This article is not about teacher performance (which is excellent in Milton) but about the way the Board is wanting to reward that excellence - with deep benefit cuts. Every board member would probably say that Milton teachers, as a whole, even during this dispute, are not only getting the job done, but going above and beyond to make sure students and families don't feel repercussions of this dispute. Wearing a certain color shirt pales in comparison to giving extra help and getting planning and grading done in a timely fashion.

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Just because teachers want to take care of their families with fair pay and good insurance does not make them "bad people". They do their job well, and should be recognized for it.

What these teachers are doing , the ones who find something to whine about every week. Is they are showing these kids, its o.k. to make excuses for things they find hard or can not do.. Nice example.

mouse person, in a perfect world teachers would not find 100 different reasons why they can't teach. They would suck it up, buckle down and find a way to make things work. But in this world we live in they whine. ' oh poor me.' .. Please.

timewas - In a perfect world all parents would rear children exactly alike, and each child would be the same. Some parents show interest and ask about the kids at meetings, but most are no shows.
In a perfect world... every child would come to school with a breakfast in his/her belly, that too is not the case, In a perfect world no child would be left behind... hmmm, who said that?
In a perfect world no 16 year old would be with child while still at school, is that a teachers fault too? Get real.

I guess laying these teachers off , is the way to go then, if they can not fire them. They can lay them off and there is nothing they can do to stop that. That is probably what it will come to.

anyone else on here get the feeling teachers would rather have services for students cut, before there benefits? So much for wanting whats best for the kids. I think they know this is going to be a issue the district is not going to budge on , as there is no good reason not to switch plans. NONE.

Darwin,
So, schools do poorly because professionals are constantly being interfered with. Imagine if your child was ill, and every tax-paying stakeholder had to be taken into consideration. Your doctor wouldn't be able to do a very good job.
.
That is one of the best quotes, comments or points I have ever read on any message board. You are correct, there is too much interference in how professional educators...educate.

Just because someone raises their children doesn't mean they can educate a group of kids that aren't there own.

Input is good but it can go beyond input and become TROUBLE!

RetiredGM, are you kidding me? Remember, GM got a free road to nowhere for making an empty promise. Sports stadiums are subsidized for Republicans who are really socialists. Roads subsidize trucking and shipping companies. To bad people can't use the same skepticism they use on others on themselves and their ignorant comments first. The problem with schools is that everyone thinks they're an expert and they get to vote as such. So, schools do poorly because professionals are constantly being interfered with. Imagine if your child was ill, and every tax-paying stakeholder had to be taken into consideration. Your doctor wouldn't be able to do a very good job.

Timewas - Actually, Wisconsin (like most states) has a teacher tenure law that requires just cause for dismissal after a probationary period (2 or 3 years, I think). Teacher contracts also contain this provision. It prevents the mass dismissals you propose.

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RetiredGM - It is difficult to understand some of your posting - other posts are quite readable. The last one seems to allude to a personal situation where a disabled student was, in your opinion, treated unfairly. Is that why you have such an axe to grid with Milton schools? From what I've heard their special ed program is one of the best around. I realize you are angry about something, but is that really a reason to "throw out the baby with the bathwater"?

RetiredGM- Why did you go to GM instead of teaching? Imagine what you could have achieved in those 30 years.
Don't think you retired from GM. Even wonder if you ever worked.

I see that I was removed for observing a situation and reporting it factually. Greatplains: I did say it to her face. As I said before, concessions should be made by everyone including administrators and teachers.

timewas
Mar 15, 2010 at 10:54 a.m.
Suggest removal Why is it, teachers think people should side with them on contract issues. They are entitled to no more than anyone else.
.
I tell that to my friend who makes double what teachers make, has less of an education and when his job sends him other places...he goes first class and even his drinks are paid for.
.
Some of you saying teachers complain too much, just remember when defeding yourself online, you can use an example like mine without meaning to complain.

Most teachers I know are appreciative of what they worked hard to achieve, fearful of what they could lose if they are not careful and like every-other person I know...always willing to fight for more.

Most teachers I know love their job, work extremely hard and do appreciate their compensation.

You can't fire teachers without good cause...

Isn't that a universal rule?

I don't think firing without "good cause" is good practice for any 'boss'.

MR. ANGUS,
WHERE IS YOUR WONDERFUL COLUMN ON HOW DIFFICULT YOUR WIFE's JOB IS? It was in Sunday's paper and it would be nice to have it online so something positive about education can also have a comment section.

THANKS!

RetiredGM, No you don't have a leg to stand on. Your degree is ancient and you can't be certified to teach because you are required to go back to school to maintain certification. What have you read lately on the subject? Let me guess, nothing. YOU decided to work for GM, and so now you are angry at the Milton teachers because of your poor choice. Do you teach responsibility too?

Teachers have Constitutional rights too. Sad that many of you didn't learn this.

Educating and schools is a part of the state statutes and state Constitution. Maybe all of you whiners should try reading some facts before you start complaining about what you don't know.

RetiredGM - props for a decent response. I disagree that noticing the color of a shirt is enough to disrupt for a full day. It isn't like you can ban a color. As for the virtual schools - I think someone has sold you some nice beachfront property with that one. Even starting kids in 5th grade would leave 10 year olds home alone to be responsible for their own education. Most teens, and many adults, can't even handle that. Also, the State of Wisconsin requires certified teachers for all credit classes - virtual or traditional, so your "instructors" would have to be teachers. Sorry- the idea might bear fruit in about 20 years, but for now it is simply untenable.

---

Still - I wonder why teachers need to be replaced just because they want a decent wage and benefits? Their performance is excellent (as measured by standardized testing)- why shouldn't their compensation be decent?

I want to go and get my degree and masters to instruct school kids. retiredGM, maybe you could tell me what programs are offered? Can
teachers apply, or is it a different requirement?

Whoa, RetiredGM - that post was barely comprehensible. Perhaps I can "instruct" you online in the construction of a cogent argument. Then again.....never mind.... To the topic.

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I'm curious how teachers wearing yellow (yes, I've heard about the shirt thing from my kids - they tell me they just notice all the teachers dressed in the same color and kind of like it!) is disruptive and "establishing a social hierarchy". How are your "instructors" different from today's teachers, except by name? How does your online only education cope with a 6 year old whose parents both have to work? Where do you find the peer reviewed, scientific evidence to back up your claims about online education? How to you balance your attack on teachers with the facts of very high WKCE and ACT results from Milton students? By all measures, Milton students are receiving an outstanding education with their present teachers. Just because you disagree with their benefits you are willing to ditch the whole crew? ( AR? )

Bustnbugs: Cheap shot on Mrs. Kress. You didn't need to say that here,unless you said to Shelly's face first.
Retired anyone: Easy for you to say. You're living on a pension, right?
Teachers have sacrificed pay for insurance. Even Obama wanted to tax it.
Cadillac plans are going to disappear in the future. We all need insurance reform.
I've said it before, and again: When times are good, teachers ask for too much. When times are bad, they're taking advantage of the taxpayer. Endless loop. Most do a good job and get bad raps from people who haven't been in a classroom for decades. Go volunteer at your local public school, and then judge.
Unions are made up their members. They do not do anything but give ignorant folks a target/straw man.

Queenb - Your salary is very taxpayer based - unless your employer doesn't accept medicare..... I'm glad you are willing to work for a wage that won't support your family, but then again most nurses make double the starting salary of a teacher, or more, so it is pretty easy to criticize teachers.

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Republiberal - your name is an oxymoron. (not a slam - look it up) Do you seriously think that just anyone can go in and do a teacher's job, and provide quality education? I am very thankful for the professionals who have dedicated themselves to providing the excellent education our children receive in Milton. I'm smart enough to know that I could never do that job. Perhaps you should spend some time talking to teachers to find out what they really do all day - better yet - shadow a teacher for a day. I think your attitude may change.

Dont these teachers have contracts? work 9 months a year? well,, fire the ones that dont want this when there contract's are up and hire new at $30k a year. Teachers whom think this has anything to do with education shouldnt be teaching my kids anyway's. The poor teachers. Well they are the cheapest people around. Its time to stop whining and pay co pays like the rest of us, of course Paul Ryan don't.... Wake Up Teachers or you wont have a job, i know of 3 kids just getting out of college whom would love your job.

Yeah, retiredGM, teachers have nothing to do with education at all... *wow*. I've already refuted the whole taxpayer (boss) idea, but actually reading the thread and learning seems impossible for you. Ladies and gentlemen - please behold Exhibit A for why online education is not effective.

Ok, this is how it works. Laborers you don't get paid much because anyone can be a laborer. Teachers get paid well because they are educated and unionized. Usually, when people complain about teachers it is because they have some drone dead end job that requires little education and are poorly educated. They usually didn't do well in school and blamed everyone, including the teachers, other than themselves. Schools' problems have little to do with teachers and more to do with state and federal mandates that they don't provide funding for, increases in energy costs, or decreased enrollment. But this knowledge requires facts and not the ignorant bigotry seen here.

Shame on you Redtop49. Badmouthing the hard-working teachers does nothing to resolve the current situation. You should be ashamed of yourself!

fanoffun,
"Like I've been saying, teachers need to do MORE to get MORE with LESS. Currently, IMO, they are getting MORE, doing LESS, with MORE tax payer's money"
IF you actually read the article again, please do so, tell me how they are getting more and doing less. Because from what I have read all they want is to keep a benefit that they have and no where in the article or any that I have seen does it say anything about teachers in milton doing a poor job of educating students.

Mouse - thanks... Just making an analogy.

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Justsome1 - to clarify - the entire post was sarcasm and intended to show the foolishness of some of the statements made against teachers (especially some of those made by a particular nurse). BTW - teachers probably have more exposure to HIV and Hep.A, B and C than most medical professionals. They clean up bloody noses, puke, soiled pants and more - and on a daily basis in the early years. Doctors and nurses work hard....but so do teachers.

Stubby and justsome1here - careful, stay on subject - fanoffun10 gets touchy.

Stubby – If you think all healthcare professions have outrageous “pay” you need a serious reality check. Many healthcare workers are exposed daily to numerous body fluids, blood-borne pathogens (HIV, Hep A, Hep B, Hep C) and very stressful working conditions. If you or any other person wishes to reap the benefits of working every other weekend, varying shifts, two to three or more holidays per year, no automatic (or guaranteed) Thanksgiving break, Christmas break, Spring Break, or summer break – I am sure that there is room for you. All you have to do is have the right degree (no sarcasm intended).

Mouse -"what are you talking about?"...Your statement of "One other thing, ever consider moving your business to Milwaukee?" - I answered your question clearly.

" It has nothing to do wiyh putting people out of work, thats the slant you put on things." - No Mouse, that is what is happening in today's economy. Now teachers are going to feel the same impact if they don't start accepting cuts. Businesses are closing, putting people out of work, and those people can't pay higher taxes (teacher's wants). No slant on that, that is a fact.

"You avoid answering your silly statements, and continue to build a moat around yourself." - Silly statements ? Please feel free to point out these silly statements to me. Not sure, what you mean by a moat around myself. I'm just voicing my view on the subject.

Thank you, Queenb - for finally pinpointing the problem. We can solve the whole issue by cutting the outrageous pay of doctors, nurses and other health care professionals. That will drastically lower medical costs - reduce insurance costs, and provide affordable care for everyone! Then our taxes won't have to go up to pay for higher insurance costs for teachers, police officers, firefighters and other public sector employees of all types. Darn greedy nurses are really the problem. Why does it cost $100 for you to give me an aspirin I can buy from Wal-Mart for $.02? Really - it would save my aching, stressed pocketbook if we just mandated medical salaries and subjected them to taxpayer approval - after all with federal health care you all will be working for me! (/sarcasm -but do you get the point yet???)

Times are rough, people are scared, that makes them mad, and the knee-jerks on these boards are even worse than back when a certain segment was flush and had the world by the tail, and the rest of us be damned.

Sheesh. Teachers are valuable. What's wrong with the seniority system is that it does not reward excellence. What's wrong with rewarding excellence is, who defines it? What's wrong with whoever defines it is, there's always a cadre on the other side of the fence waiting to tear down the definition.

Teachers are valuable. Like other salaried earners worth their salt, they work more hours than they are paid to work. If we're ticked off because they're the last bastion of the economy with full health care benefits (and I think that's where a lot of folks are coming from and probably don't even know it), should we examine our anger and focus the energy where it really belongs?

Public education is a mess in this country, and I've studied it a long time to try to find out where the mess is being generated. Only thing I can figure is we ALL have a stake in it, and we all have failed in one way or another. I spent some time in the classroom of purportedly the best-behaved kids in the system and couldn't control the little angels. Whose fault is that?

It's a lot of peoples' fault -- parents could do a better job of instilling respect into their kids; the adminsitration could have offered up more support; I could have been more effective if I wasn't so worried about teaching to the test. But whose responsibility was it? MINE. It was my responsibility. I failed. So -- learn how to do it better, or find something else.

Dang. I don't know anyone who can't use a regular honest self-assessment. I don't know anyone in this circumstance who doesn't have what it takes to "give" a little. Somewhere we went off the rails and learned that our first order of business is throwing up a defense. And if you're always on defense, you sure can't spend any time solving problems, and you sure can't hear what anyone else is trying to say.

Teaching is hard. Parenting is hard. Being a kid is hard. Being an adminstrator is hard. "Be kind, for everyone you meet is waging a great battle."

Teachers and districts and parents and kids and everyone complaining about them here are waging great battles. And nobody can hear each other, and it can never be solved.

Kansas City solved it by closing almost 50% of its schools. They couldn't hear each other either.

fannofun- what are you talking about? You avoid answering your silly statements, and continue to build a moat around yourself. It has nothing to do wiyh putting people out of work, thats the slant you put on things.

Mouse - I am on subject. It's called the failing economy.

Move my business to Milwaukee, Mouse says. You like putting local people out of work don't you ? Leave your address on here so my 30+ employees can come to your house looking for work.

Luck for you, I have a branch also working in Milwaukee. Should I put them out of work and move my local employees over there and have those 30+ employees come to your house instead ? Or should I put my 40+ Madison employees out of work and send them to your place ? I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point.

It's this kind of thinking that pushes companies to start, expand, or establish themselves in other cities. You know, cities where companies aren't shutting down or laying people off and placing less tax burden on the average household.

realist - You got me again. Yep, I enjoyed the last decade, because my employees were doing MORE work and brought in MORE money for the company. Like I've been saying, teachers need to do MORE to get MORE with LESS. Currently, IMO, they are getting MORE, doing LESS, with MORE tax payer's money.

And my "Offering" was taken out of my salary and my employee's salary every week. You are welcome.

When I was in public service, I took what you the tax payers would give me. I didn't like giving up fully paid insurance either. But we did it or faced lay-offs. Insurance premiums went up 17% the next year, so we took pay freezes. The following year, premiums went up again. The City refused to fill a vacant position. We learned to do more, with less people and older facilities. My boss back than seen the writing on the wall and handed money BACK annually to the tax payers. He nickled and dimed the budget down every year. Want to know what his boss did with the money ? Gave it to another department to spend instead of reporting a savings. Welcome to public service. The old saying "Use it or lose it" was pushed but my boss didn't buy into it. He is still that way today. He taught me a lot about trying to save tax payer's money.

fanoffun - stay on subject, don't need to compare your company with tax funded teachers. What gives you the right to say teachers can't see the light at the end of the tunnel? And if a nurse can make a comparison with her profession, then I believe she sets herself up for fair game.
One other thing, ever consider moving your business to Milwaukee?

Those who can do those who can't teach. As usual teachers don't get it, just because you bought and paid for Doyle and his lackeys doesn't mean you get whatever you want. When Barry Obama passes his bill your going to pay 40% on these Cadillac policies, and I guarantee your not going to have your boys and girls running this state after Nov.

Teachers of Rock County: "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk" (that advise given to me from my dear old grandmother...may she rest in peace)

realist - Ok, you got me I mispelled college. Didn't know it was a spelling test. Ha Ha.

Yes, I am a University of Maryland Alumni.

My point was not to say Milwaukee schools are better or worse. I was saying the teachers do the same, with less.

As a Milton teacher I'd like to clarify a few points about the negotiaions and our commitment. Although I am only contracted for 8 hours of work per day/5 days per week, I typically work a 10 hour day and bring about an hour worth of work home per night. In addition, I work in my classroom about 2 Saturdays per month, work during my extra earned days off, work during winter and spring break and work at least 50% of my summer days. I am not paid to work for any of this time. I choose to do this so I can provide high quality instruction and learning opportunities for my students. 100% of our insurance is paid because we chose to put more of our money toward insurance rather than our salaries. The insurance plan our district would like us to accept does cover most providers in the Milton area. However, what the article doesn't make clear is that the district's insurance plan is not for Dean and Mercy. It's for Dean or Mercy, effectively cutting health care provider options in half. Thanks to those of you who support teachers!

fanoffun,
"We ride out the tough times, to enjoy the good times."Yep you are right, you did enjoy the good times the last decade when teachers did not enjoy the surpluses that the private sector did but now that the private sector is suffering the teachers should as well. Thanks for the offering during that time to pay more in taxes so the teachers could enjoy the good times with you.

Mouse - The article is on teaching, so please don't attack other professions that aren't the subject matter. You are trying to make this a personal attack on someone who disagrees with your view. When doctors and nurses are tax payer funded, then we can post on a blog about our taxes being misused.

fanoffun10,
I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to comment on your earlier post where you compare schools/teachers here to those of milwaukee. Awesome comparison. If you are so thrilled with the job the teachers are doing in milwaukee why don't you move there and send your children there. Do a little research and you may find that while the teachers in milwaukee may work just as hard or harder than the teachers here, there are many other factors that enhance student achievement which may have a direct impact on the super high graduation rate in milwaukee schools. Home life, facilities, technology as well as community support might have some impact. Good comparison though.
Another great comparison " Hmm, it was fine in collage to have one professor teach up to 50 future teachers, right?" I am sure you didn't sit in a "collage" class but if you did you probably wouldn't have seen any kids acting out. That, I am sure, is due to the excellent professor who is getting paid slim to none compared to a teacher, or has nothing to do with the fact that the students are paying to be there and it actually matters if they pass or not. Other than those minor factors in your post I whole-heartedly agree with your rationale in your post.

jqpublic - I respectfully disagree with you. MOST schools have teacher's aides that are doing these responsibilities. Some teachers may do them, but MOST are not.
In regards to inflation, teachers have been getting these percentages in their contracts, so we can't really say they aren't getting paid more cause they are. PLUS they are getting annual raises. The dollar has changed, but not that much.
Teachers are important, please do not get me wrong. But so are many other professions out there that are taking cuts to keep the doors open. But they all aren't publicly funded.
I own and run my own business. I have had to make cuts. Including cutting my own salary in half. I have to keep my budget out of the red, so I have to do what I can to give my customers the best deal possible just to keep the doors open. Schools need to realize the tough times are here and employees need to accept cuts to keep their customers happy.
Knock on wood, I haven't had to let anyone go yet. I took the cut instead of cutting workers. Without them, I make nothing. This same business approach will have to be adopted by public funded professions. We ride out the tough times, to enjoy the good times.

Getting a little sick of this blog. Need to get some medication - lets see $120 for the doctor and then the outragous cost of a perscription. mmmm! and a nurse working 60 hours. ( Is this due to greed or bad planning?)

realist: Is it not a good idea to get rid of schools and go to virtual classrooms not a good idea? Maybe we can do virtual teachers who teach virtual kids in a virtual school house? RetiredGM is virtually clueless regarding education. He must of cleaned the paint booth during his overpaid overtime!

retired gm,
You are obviously entitled to your opinion but not only are you making yourself look bad but with the name you chose you are making the intelligent people that worked at gm look bad.

fanoffun10: All of the job duties you listed regarding what teachers use to do are still being done by teachers today. Also regarding the retirement info you posted. Compare wages from then until now, but don't forget to include inflation! You will find the difference in pay is not all that different.

iamqueenb - We are all jealous of teachers....they are missing our point. We aren't jealous, we are paying taxes on a group of individuals that can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. We elect the bosses (school board) that these individuals report to. So we're not jealous, we are trying to control where our tax dollars go.
You want to know where everyone got their educations so you can say thank a teacher. But the teachers that taught most of us retired at a lower pay scale then starting teachers are making. And they taught classes 2 to 3 times larger and in smaller classrooms. They are the ones that didn't play touchy feely with the kids. They are the ones who didn't have aides, did recess duty, did lunch monitoring, did school bus monitoring, and wore many more hats during a days worth of work.
Once again, it's time for teachers to realize that the tax payers are getting tapped out and pulling back on public spending. Take cuts or find another job. Schools are closing, firing, laying off, consolidating, and making drastic cuts. Hopefully they aren't foolish to think this won't happen to them.

iamqueenb - let me guess you work for Mercy? 60 hours sounds dangerous - maybe we should teach more nurses and give you summers off.

iamqueenb: I am not whining I am just trying to understand your animosity towards teachers?

iamqueenb: You do realize that your professors make substantially more than teachers and work less hours. And as far as our UNPAID vacation it is 10 weeks and not 12! How many weeks of PAID vacation do you receive a year? You must have missed that question in a previous post?

iamqueenb: Your post again proves you despise teachers! Can you say anything positive about teachers? Do they not make a difference to students everyday? Also as far as nurses go I also believe they deserve everything they get and more. But for some reason teachers are considered whiners when they try to keep what they have fought for.

iaqueenb: How many weeks of paid vacation do you receive? Also everyone knows how Janesville nurses get raises!

http://gazettextra.com/news/2010/mar/13/...

imaqueenb -Do you have a bachelor's degree from a university or a two-year associate degree? JW

iamqueenb: Where did you get your RN certificate/degree. Also your comment proves my last line of my last post!

queenb, don't worry about them showing up, if they can not whine, they won't show. What I think is the kicker is they 'claim' they work all these hours yet, they get prep time all by itself, they also have prep time when the kids are in specials. My son has a hour and a half of specials a day, which means his teacher has a total of 3 hours to do what? So if in this prep time they can not get done what they need to they need to learn better time management.

I am amazed at how clueless and completely uninformed most of you are regarding teachers. This blog consist of jealous individuals who wish they could have done better for themselves. If teachers are so fortunate why not try to go and get your degree and try to make a difference to students. All of this ridiculous back and forth bantering accomplishes nothing. It just proves how much people actually despise teachers.

"I'll CRAWL away now."
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I figured you would...

I was reading a article on education reform, and a teacher posted, ' it is the teacher's job to teach that is there charge. They need to stop blaming the parents . If they can not do their job , then those are the teacher's that need to go.' That was posted by a teacher. She has a clue. This was posted on the Huffington Post. Finally a teacher who takes responsibility for the job they do and does not blame everyone around them. Get rid of these whining teachers.

RetiredAirForce: ...and why should I respond to someone who will only try and put "his own spin" on it and put down those who you disagree with. Your attempt at open discussion is only good if it meets your criteria and is in agreement with your own philosophy. I'm done with you. Call me anything you want. It's quite obvious that you're a malcontent who is dissatisfied with your life. I feel sorry for you. I'll CRAWL away now.

Badgerlvr it is obvious you did not read, if you think anything in your provided example meets your previous accusation of "teachers being overpaid, under worked, or under-achievers".

First the quote "We don’t want..." was provided as context, to answer postings of someone else, to my words that did followed. My words did say "what a crock..." Yet in all this there still is no context that meets your accusation. I never said they were overpaid, under worked, or under-achievers---as you accuse me of. I did make the point that they are not under-paid. If you think my remarks provided to refute a comment, is a complaint fine; then go ahead and say I made a complaint…but don’t try accusing me of making comments I did not make.

To your question of sacrificing my government pension. In order for there to be a sacrifice I would first have to receive more than I contribute. As it is now I pay more in federal taxes than I receive in a pension. If you want to change tax law to lower my legal contributions I would gladly “sacrifice” my pension as you say.

Now, seeing I answered your question are you going to answer the original one I posted for you...before you accused me of comments I never made.

RetiredGM - Why don't get your degree quickly and get a teaching job? Then, you can put your money where your big mouth is when you have to teach some of the students who are at school to do everything but learn!

RetiredAirForce: "We don't want to pay a highly educated person that works everyday with our children/future a decent wage"
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What a crock. For those that really want to know what some of these people are paid...many over 60 grand a year; guess that is not a decent wage...

If this isn't a complaint, what do you want to call it? (your words) Are you willing to sacrifice some of your government pension? Or are you not a retired Air Force person with benefits? Be truthful now.

"professionals were receiving nice raises"
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Please provide percentages you claim were not given to teaches based on comparisons of both of these fields in dollars for then and today...to include all income and benefits; we all know net income is not all income.

Thanks for being defensive and not answering the question. I never accused you of stating any of the comments you provided. I only asked you a simple question. If you don't want to answer it, fine.

Now, since you did accuse me of remarks like "teachers being overpaid, under worked, or under-achievers." under you inclusion remark of "yourself included"; I will be waiting for your proof to back these silly comments...or you can crawl away and stop your complaining.

RetiredAirforce, teacher's salaries have not kept up with inflation for over 15 years. When many professionals were receiving nice raises from 1990-2005, teachers were not keeping up with inflation or even with other teachers across the country. Teachers work a lot more than 35 hours a week. Most put in 45-50 at school and then additionl hours at home. Most teachers I know work all summer as well at a second job or summer school to help make ends meet.

RetiredAirForce: I have NEVER complained about teachers being overpaid, under worked, or under-achievers. I would not change places with any of them. I am suggesting that those who think otherwise, yourself included, take the initiative and "do it better". But what will you have to complain about then?

dini79 - Like what you say, I think concessions is a word some have made, others hide behind the word.
We want what is best for our kids so they can compete in global education. Maybe, and this is only a suggestion... we could tax 1% on any foreign made product purchase, and apply that to Americas schools and other public services. (put me in detention if I said something wrong).

Badgerlvr I would be interested to hear what your definition of a fair wage is; both in words and dollars.

If you think teachers are overpaid, under-worked, and under-achievers, take your kids out of school NOW. Home school your kids. You already know all of the problems. Now you can supply all of the answers. Good Luck!

News flash: Though educators should be paid what they're worth (which in general is quite a lot), here are some alternatives from other districts: Kansas City will close half of its schools. A medium-sized district in northern Illinois the other day pink-slipped 40 teachers in ONE department. I'm not saying this is the right contract change, but economical forces are making it tough all over. It is not fair, but the world we live in is not fair. What concessions CAN we make that won't hurt teachers or the kids they work to educate?

RetiredGM - Virtual students - that would mean kids home alone right?
Does that mean limited social skills? And you care about kids.

The Manhattan Institute "research" (I use the term loosely) is a great example of manipulating numbers to make a point. The same thing that Mrs. Meyer is an expert at doing. Let me demonstrate:

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They claim that teachers only instruct 3.9-5.2 hours per day. Probably accurate. What they conveniently omit is that teachers spend at least one hour grading (often at home) for every hour instructing - taking us to 7.8 - 10.2 hours per day. Oh- let's not forget an hour of "supervision" time, plus time for student discipline and other "in-loco parentis" things....and we are (conservatively) up to 9.8 - 12.2 hours per day. Teacher's aides in the room? Sometimes - when there is a special needs student or three who need constant individual attention. But as you see, if you only count "instructional" time - it looks pretty cushy, doesn't it? Number manipulation.

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RetiredGM - If you don't care about teachers, then you don't care about kids. Kids spend more time every day with their teachers than their parents, in many cases. I only want the very best in that position with my kids.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/...

Average days working 190 - 200 per year. Actually hours per day instructing 3.9 to 5.2 per day. How many Teacher Aides do you have working with you ?

I love the posts saying "Go back to school and become a teacher if you think they have it made." Thanks, but I have a job and have had to make my cuts. Your turn !!

100% retirement and insurance paid for working 190 days in a year and less than 35 hrs a week ? Time to get real and take your cuts like the rest of the population.

RetiredGM - Cardtrader... said no bashing, but you have done nothing but bash teachers. Big cuts in pay and benefits to support you... Is that what you mean? What 5 star hotel does any Milton school resemble?
What percentage of the time do teachers spend talking union? I don't know that one, tell us please.
Regarding only working 9 months, and this one was not quoted by RetiredGM (9 month still gets spread over 52 weeks).
If you think teaching is so cool, and easy, and with long paid vacations, go back to school and become one.

OK let's compare teacher's salary vs oh say the President of Mercy Health System total compensation of $3,568,880.00 (source 2008 IRS 990 Form)

LogicalThinker - Good Video. But I'm not buying it. I think you give ANYONE a microphone and tell them to justify the existence of their career and you'd hear pretty much the same.

Check the internet, the television, the newspaper and almost all coffee shops. Schools are struggling locally. They want the best of the best mostly for themselves. Take a drive around Milwaukee and look at the buildings they teach out of and their salaries. Those teachers know what happens in ANY classroom makes an impact instead of a brand new classroom. They don't have 12 to 15 kids in a classroom and scream they can't handle it.

Schools are overstaffed. Let me guess, quality of the education, right? Hmm, it was fine in collage to have one professor teach up to 50 future teachers, right? Home schooling is up because all teachers treat kids fairly, right?

I know quite a few teachers in the Milton school district. I know for a fact that teachers do not have it easy. Most people get to leave their work when they go home for the day. Teachers have to grade your kids' assignments, tests, and quizzes when they leave work and go home to their families. Last I checked, teachers were salaried and don't get paid overtime for the hours of extra work they put in after their work day ends. Teachers are with our children more than we are and play just as vital a role in their development as a person as we their parents do. I think we need to respect the job that teachers do.

I considered teaching as a career when I was in college. However, I decided to go with nursing because I like working weekends and holidays.

The question that I would like answered with a yes or no is: Is it guaranteed that the district will get all of the savings like Al alluded to in his comment. I think that is the real point of this story.

As far is if Dean/Mercy has the same coverage as WEA, Mrs. Meyer answers that with the statement, "Meyer acknowledged that depending on a teacher’s choice of health care provider, a Dean/Mercy plan could mean less coverage."

But who gets the money? Does it go to fill the hole in the budget or does it go to offset the decrease in insurance coverage for the teachers?

redder - Who's stopping you? If you think they got it so good, why are you still on the sidelines?

Thank you RAF...and they only work 9 months a year too....sign me up

hey why ARGUE OVER HEALTH INSURANCE ISNT oBAMA GONNA FORCE I MEAN FIX THAT FOR US

"We don't want to pay a highly educated person that works everyday with our children/future a decent wage"
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What a crock. For those that really want to know what some of these people are paid...many over 60 grand a year; guess that is not a decent wage...

http://www.postcrescent.com/apps/pbcs.dl...

Bloggers try to stick to the issues at hand. This story is about Teachers and there contract and demands and lack of. Not about bashing the retired G.M worker or the Professional Football players and yes they are Highly Educated people.

I think the teachers foget that they work for, and are payed by us the taxpayers. The union does not pay them, and do not SIGN their paychecks. Maybe they should put their union dues in a health savings plan instead of giving it to the union to use to pay for whatever they deem it worthy, like vote buying?

RetiredGM.
Why did you stick it out for 30 years - no other ability?
Bet you refused the family new car privlages too? What a great guy!
Think you should should give some of your money to the kids, after all you were the "Heart Beat of America" ... and for 30 years.

As we see all the teacher bashing in Rock County and all the teachers working without a contract, don't forget to support all those poor professional athletes that are having troubles settling their revenue sharing. The NFL, NHL, and even the pro soccer league in this country may not play in their next season. We don't want to pay a highly educated person that works everyday with our children/future a decent wage, but we'll continue to put up with the bullscat that professional atheletes, owners, and television continue to throw at us. Most of the bashers out there won't think twice about paying the increase on their badger football tickets, but a $10 increase in their taxes to support education is disastrous for them.

LogicalThinker, Great video, all school boards should take a good look at it during their next meeting. Anyone that has ever spent time in their child's classroom would agree with this video.

LogicalThinker, that was an intresting video, but as a parent I also (make) a difference and sometimes I think I do a better job than some. I agree that there are alot of fine educators, but as in any job there are alot of bad workers as well, and milton has had there share of them in the public eye in recent years. The bottom line is this the teachers need to realize that the world is in bad shape right now and there is a line of people that can step in a fill there shoe's and if they press to hard that might be just what needs to happen. As in any business these days there is no longer any loyality. It's what have you done for me lately.

LogicalThinker: Great video. Too bad all of these who post, won't bother to see it.

A good video on what teachers make... a good three minutes of your day to help put it into perspective... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4sy...

simon, those business's such as mercy make money, they support them selves. Schools do not. So as tax payers we have the right to 'rip' on how OUR money is spent. Maybe some of these 'teachers' should go work there. THEN maybe they would stop whining.

Yes, let's all get mean and worry about the benefits of teachers, who are teaching our kids. Let's not worry about the CEOs of financial institutions or the CEOs of the for-profit insurance industry, both of whom make millions, much of it from taxpayers (the bail-out). It makes us feel much better to take things away from our hard-working neighbors.

The idea that as a tax payer you are a teacher's employer is absurd. This means that whoever is remotely responsible for paying your salary is also your employer. Farmers gets subsidies from taxpayers so I get to fire them? Next time I am pulled over, I am simply going to fire the officer before he gives me a ticket.

We need to live in a society that rewards education and intelligence, otherwise we will end up with a society of ignorant people who believe they are smart. Oh wait, we already have it - they are called Republicans.

Maybe people should rip on other professions in the area. I know people at Mercy Hospital with no education past high school that make twice as much as a teacher and they have good benefits, too. They get raises, go on paid trips and outings, etc.

You are correct stubby.

But we are their employers, each and everyone of us. Public schools are not privately held. The taxpayers fund them, every step of the way in different ways. We most certainly are their employers and we do have a say in how those schools are run, how much they are paid, what their insurance looks like. That is why there is a school board. The school board in the end is the way who approves the contracts and all that goes with it.

We most certainly are there employers no matter what every one's background is.

Theone - "actually, since we are their employers, we don't have to be quiet."

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There is the problem! We are not their employers. We have no expertise in their profession other than having gone to school ourselves, or having kids in school. We aren't the employer - we are the customer. The customer has the right to demand quality service and a quality product, and the right to take our business elsewhere if we don't like it, along with our dollars. (The state aid that follows an open enrollment choice far exceed what you are paying in school property taxes....unless you own a $700k home....) The customer does not have the right to dictate the working conditions, although they can make them miserable. And before you say "well I pay their salary" - big deal! When you come into my business and spend your money, you are paying my employee's salary as well, but you don't come up to my manager and say "I think these employees should be paid less" or "change their benefits so your product costs less". I'd bounce you out on your ear.

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Bottom line is that the District is the employer. Unless you are an administrator or school board member, you are not the employer, you are the customer.

I always find it funny when people say, "teachers get their summers off," "teachers never work weekends," etc., etc., etc. Have you ever worked as a teacher? I'm currently a student-teacher who switched careers mid-life ... as a student-teacher (working for free mind you), I've spent EVERY Sunday the past 10 weeks doing work to prepare for the next week because there isn't enough hours in the day during the regular week to get that work done. And every one of those Sundays, I've seen multiple teachers in my district putting in time to get ready as well. So don't tell me teachers just leave their job on Friday and don't come back to it until Monday. I'm not going to lie, the teachers have a lot of benefits that are nice to fall back on. But I'm also going to tell you that the good teachers earn every dime and every second off with the efforts they put together during the week. Even as a student-teacher, I'm in the classroom by 7:45 a.m. and don't leave until 4 each and every day ... with about 15 minutes for lunch before I supervise kids during the noon hour who haven't gotten their homework done. I chose this new line of work because I love it, and I'm not in it to make money, but I hate it when those who never have done it just generalize their thoughts. It's like any profession, walk in their shoes for a little bit before you rush to judgment.

"If you want the benefits teachers have, then go be a teacher. If not, be quiet."

Uhmmm...actually, since we are their employers, we don't have to be quiet.

RetiredGM: If you cared about GM you would give your pension back. God knows you robbed them blind for years with your bogus overpaid overtime!

Beware of the "low Dean" cost. I worked in the Madison area for years, Dean countless times came in and underbid the local insurance. Everything was great for the first 2 years or so, then in years 3 to 5 the rates went up much faster than everyone else and soon your rates are higher than ever. WEA-trust is not out to make a huge profit like dean they are founded by teachers to look out for teachers. If you do the research over any 10 year period they beat any company in the state because they don't play those low ball tricks. BTW the 100% coverage is AFTER deductables and set money co-pays in my district (not Milton).

fanoffun10: Teachers are unemployed during the summer months. Many take classes to maintain their licenses as well as work to make up the difference in pay versus the private sector. Teachers would be happy to work year around. I am sure you as a tax payer would be willing to pay them for the addition 3 months? Or are they suppose to do that for free?

Typical responses. Industries are closing left and right. State and Federal Aide to schools are being cut. HELLO !!! You have jobs when many don't. Don't be greedy and want 100% insurance coverage when the school HAS to cut costs.
Teachers don't deal with kids day in and day out. I once had a school board member breakdown how many days a year a teacher actually works and it blew my mind. Wish I could remember the number. But they want 100% benefits for working part of a year, having summers off, EVERY weekend off, and a 100% employer (taxpayer) paid retirement. Look around at the people with educations working 40 to 60 hours per week, EVERY week, who have to pay for part of their own insurance and retirements, and have to pay for daycare while you enjoy your summers off.

If you want the benefits teachers have, then go be a teacher. If not, be quiet. These people deal with your not-so-angelic kids day in and day out. They deserve everything they get!

FYI, teachers negotiate their contract to get quality benefits like health insurance. The increase in pay for teachers over the past 10-15 years has not kept up with the national average nor has it come close to inflation. However, teachers have sacrificed the pay all these years so they could have quality benefits. If you take away the benefits, they will demand the pay instead.

I'm assuming, then, that since this health care system is so broken that people are lucky to have coverage, that you are a big supporter of Health Care Reform. Isn't that where the real problem lies?

So they NOW get 100% coverage? Must be nice. I don't know anyone who has that kind of coverage. The Milton School District is in Rock County. A Dean/Mercy policy covers nearly all of southern Wisconsin... is someone flying in from New York to work in this district or something?

Anyone I've discussed insurance with over the past 2 years, have had their copays go up. At my company our out of pocket costs have gone up as well.

In this economy, simply HAVING any kind of insurance is a blessing. I don't think its right that the teachers union can dictate what coverage they get, when its MY tax dollars at work!