kleej,
"whythink", your words are duly noted and have great merit. I've got a question I must ask of you regarding abortion. You don't feel it should be made illegal and you're all for reducing unwanted pregnancies. I respect that. My question is, would you feel the same way if you were in your mothers belly??
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I will say this...
If my mother was a 14 year old being raised by a crack whore and pregnant as a result of a rape...than maybe her decision to abort would be justified.
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My life as I know it, would have never began so I just wouldn't be here...the end.
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Again, my point is simple. You can reduce something without making it illegal. Take accidental death (DWI, or with a Gun). is the only way to stop those by making driving/alcohol illegal, OR outlawing guns? OR can you educate the public and reduce/solve the problem?

dub...., the murderers were fellow christians who had different ideas about god.

He walked into a fight between two rival groups. It had nothing to do with being a Christian, just a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Was he beaten because he was a christian? If so I would suggest looking at christians of a slightly different sect, maybe it was a protestant/catholic thing? You see it turns out that christians like to slaughter each other as much as they like to slaughter those that worship completely different imaginary gods.

I wish Pete would come back with some further evidence that I enjoy standing by whilst my friends are beat to death with railroad ties.
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He is very insightfull.

Yeah, dub...., what's your point?

What's your point then?

Yes it has.

I wasn't there when the first drafts of the bible were written, but am certain it has been modified and interpreted to suit the beliefs of different factions.

couchsit and justsome......, we're talking about god here as represented by scripture. Believers are claiming that scripture is the inspired word of god.

The problem with Christianity, as I see, it is that they cannot get their beliefs straight between denominations. Its like a police investigation where everyone sees something as little different, in the end no one is really sure what is going on. With something important as what God truly wants, you would think everyone would get their story straight.

Atheism is not as religion. To a true atheist, the term "atheist" is inadequate because it implies that there is the possibility (or even the option) that God exists. The existence of a higher power is truly undebatable.

justsome......., it's a matter of intensity and not only proportion.

If you had a neighbor who 90% of the time talked liked a normal human being but the other 10% talked only of vicious hatred and violence, you'd be compelled to only judge him condemningly by the 10%, wouldn't you?

dub190, was he killed BECAUSE he was a christian?

Justsome - you do know that not all opinions are equal - some are grounded in reality.
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The bible proves beyond a doubt that the god it describes is non-existant.
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The import of this discussion to athiests is that people that suffer under the delusion of religion are sometimes in powerful positions. Positions to decide on funding issues, or even scarier, positions where they control military assets.
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The people that are eagerly waiting the rapture are sometimes in control of nuclear weopons.
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The time to sit back and respect this blind faith based superstition is over.

gazettefan – You are good at twisting content, however, lack the comprehension of said content. The Bible may carry its own condemnation by your opinion, but not by others opinion. Therefore, your opinion is only truth if you believe it; others opposing opinion is truth if they believe it. My original post was an observation that opposing sides use the same weapon to defend their position. Please do not confuse me with someone who shares your opinion, for I am intelligent enough to form my own.

justsome......, my pronoun reference is accurate: I was referring to the content of your comment:

You fail to see that the despite whatever good is the bible, the bible carries its own condemnation. Therefore you are unwittingly siding with the atheists.

gazettefan - “the full import of its content..”? If, as I am assuming, you are referring to the content of the Bible, I know the importance of the content to BOTH the believers and non-believers. I am, however, of the mind that I do not believe that one opinion has more weight than the other. To vehemently oppose something, you have already acknowledged that there is merit in what you are opposing.

justsome........, your comment is interesting in that it reveals your own failure to realize the full import of its content.

I find it interesting that the intolerance displayed by the “believers” is equally matched by the intolerance of the “non-believers”; both of whom have worked equally hard to discredit the other by using the writings of the Bible. How ironic.

John 14:12-14 (King James Version)

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
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Tell that to the folks that watch their kids die writhing in pain,praying over them instead of taking them to get an insulin shot.
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By all means Jesus speaks for god.

Jesus does.

Matthew - thanks. I shall, indeed, watch my pearls. Still - there are others who read as well - why not present the Gospel? Every opportunity, my brother!

While no one can provide any logical proof of Gods existence, there is no proof god doesn't exist (I know, I can't prove the Great Pumpkin doesn't exit either). My biggest source of faith is life. Until science can create life from nothing, I will have blind faith that a higher power has something to do with its creation.

Dear Mathew - I am afraid you are wrong about us. You see there is no proof to support your claim of a god - or any of the many other blind faiths out there. We point out the illogic in your own explanations of god, for instance the latest that god knew we would break the covenent when he created us to break the covenant, then punished us - with love of course.
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We do so because your, and the other faiths out their, those superstitions are held by some in power, that affect us and are a danger to the world. Not to mention the violence that yours and other superstitions bring to the world on a daily basis.

Rocky~ great posts my friend. Don't waste anymore of your valuable time talking to these "fence posts"... it doesn't matter what you bring to the table, you're dealing with people who simply don't care to know the truth and wouldn't admit it if they found it. (obviously) Isn't it a shame we live in a culture where so many people are willing to cut of their noses to spite their face?? This isn't about religion or God to them, it's about simply arguing for the sake of arguing. Nonetheless, your posts and many others are outstanding and right on. Let's just pray for the lost and love them where they're at.

Of course you wouldn't sell your children into slavery or slaughter them....but then you aren't God. God's punishments are, indeed, harsh. When God allowed a people to be destroyed, or sold into slavery in the old testament there were a couple things going on. Sometimes God was using a people, such as the nation of Israel, to be the instruments of his wrath and induce punishments for their sin. Other times we simply see examples of mankind's cruelty to one another - something that is still in abundance today.

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In reply to your other question: God did not change his wants and needs. In the beginning God created mankind for fellowship with Him. We broke that covenant and God gave us the means to restore that relationship through Jesus. This was always his plan as told through the prophets. God is a righteous judge - he did not take delight in punishing us, but did so because his nature would not allow otherwise. The same is true today, but we have the advantage of Jesus, who gives us a way out from under that judgment. God has always loved, and has always judged. Nothing has changed.

Yea god allowed slavery because it was what we wanted - he wasjust being flexible.
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You do know that there are just as many passages where he endorses genocide and murder - was that him just being flexible for our sake again?

Rocky - listen to yourself -
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I would punish my children, I would not however sell them into slavery, slaughter them, or (here comes the new testament punishment here) burn them in hell for all of eternity.
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Why does god - who is constant and never changing, change his wants and needs to dramatically? You clearly see the difference between the old testament god and the new testament god.

Prounion - obviously someone has misled you somewhere along the way. Your idea of "loving and caring" clearly precludes the idea of righteous wrath and consequences for bad choices. Tell me - does being "loving and caring" for you children mean that you never punish them? (if so - i feel sorry for your kids and those they encounter).

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God, especially as presented in the Old Testament, is a God of justice and wrath. As sinful humans, we are rightly the recipients of that judgement and wrath. If it weren't for Jesus, who came to pay the penalty for our sins, this would still be the case. Jesus, however, presented us with a way to gain God's forgiveness, so we can, as God intended, enjoy God's love and mercy, and share that with others. Did God allow slavery? Absolutely. Why? Because it is what we, as depraved human beings, wanted. That is our fallen nature - the nature to sin. God permits us to choose sin (and grieves when we do), and imposes (eternal) consequences.

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Good news: We can avoid those consequences by accepting Jesus' gift of salvation. When we accept, by faith, that Jesus is God, and the only way to salvation, we are separated from our sins, and in our gratitude for the forgiveness we've been granted, we choose to live in the love that God intended. So now - you, and everyone else, has a choice to make. Do you want to live in the sin and depravity that is human nature, leading a life that leads to things like rape, slavery, and murder, or do you want to live in love the way God intended? Continue to refuse Jesus and you are choosing the first option.

bibledude, on the other blog insists or implies that knowledge of the Greek language is required to understand scripture. This leaves many people without a proper gripe on what it is they're supposed to believe.

Weeds- I agree. Just because you change the vernacular so it's better understood in terms of OUR english as opposed to OLD english....doesn't mean you can decipher any more of the writings more specifically. They're still generalized and sometimes vague. It's pretty much tomato, tomahto. =p

I just jumped int to see what kind of action I could stir up- and to test the waters and see how far off the original topic almost every post has been.

The topic is called "In the culture wars, who speaks for god?"
All thats been discussed-for the most part-is whether god is real or not, and why that is. Granted, all I've done is fuel the fires,too.But hey, if you want to make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs.
It's pretty entertaining, and pretty much anytime religion is in any discussion, the context always shifts to whether or not you should fear god's wrath.
Am I the only one amused by this entire conversation?

Still on the 'rape' thing two days later. Amazing. There's narrow minded thinking and then there's this particular thread which would narrow that down even more.

And that garbage about needing to understand Old English to understand the bible? Oh Please, knowing old English certainly won't make the vastly inconsistent gibberish any more understandable to a logically thinking person.

Pud - in response to you bending over backwards to make it seem like the bible does not endorse rape - I posted this on another thread to a similar rationalization.
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So OK - you guys don't flinch at stoning people that engage in sex outside of marriage or the tearing apart of 42 people with she-bears. Those are both acts of a loving caring god. But the passages that clearly spell out rape - thats not rape. OK.
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This probably isn't rape either - just slaughter and slavery, which shows how much respect god has for human life.
Numbers 31 -
15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

As Towelie once said: "I have no idea what is going on right now."

DiGriz, in order to understand the bible(St. James Version) one has to understand old English.
To re quote what you wrote, you said that in Deuteronomy it encourages raping of young women to pay Daddy off. That is far from what it means.

Deuteronomy 28: If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed(married or engaged to be married) and seizes her and lies with her(raped) and they are found then the man who lay(had sex) with her shall give to the father of the young virgin fifty shekels of silver(dowry or bride price)and she shall be his wife because he violated her. He may not put her away(divorce) all his day(married til death do them part).
Back in the day women had a dowry that went to the husband when they got married. It was a way for the brides family to ensure the husband will take care of her. The groom also paid to her family a brides price(payment to the brides family for her loss of labor and fertility within her kin group).

Hey sprout, maybe thats WHY it's been storming since 6:00.

Apparently now I watch my friends get beaten with railroad ties. I think Pete's point is that if I found god I would be doing the beating - of nonbelievers?

Wow Pete - sorry we don't agree but I don't think you can back up your latest assertion with evidence. I cite two reasons:
1. I do care about this topic - the number of posts clearly indicate that.
2. I would not, and have never, stood by and watched someone get beat to death, why you would attribute that behavior to me I have no idea.
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Any interest in answering my last questions to you, or are you going to find a video of someone doing something dispicable and say I would do the same?

I think you know what side of the fence I am on now. The side that is not on fire.
seriously lol
I'm going to use that someday, just so you know =D
have a good day! watch out for the apocalypse!

Griz I like the quote, but don't you thinkyou might be reading into the context of seized too far? Perhaps its meant to imply ownership in the context of a couple, that is not engaged.Betrothed is referring to married or engaged,correct? Could just be dating,breaking the ice.Flowers,mules.You know, that old chestnut. Not to take a woman by force sexually. Just saying.Not that that makes it any better, because that's basically calling the woman equal to monetary value like animals or packaged goods. Sounds sexually biased to me. Gotta love old school writings!
Also a great example of why there are countless bible rewrites and different followers. A single word taken in the wrong context can change the meaning of a sentence or a whole passage entirely.
And how many people live their lives by this certain uncertainty....

Griz z z zzz:
"In order for God to have written the bible, koran, etc., he would have been required to possess the writer. But if he possessed the writer, then what was written is false, because other than lighting a bush on fire, that's not something that your faith teaches you he did, or is it?"
You really have to expand on your thoughts a bit. Treat me like an Idiot until I prove otherwise. I think you're onto something good, but you gotta explain it in more detail than going from possessing a writer to setting a bush on fire. Come on now =)
I think you're asking (me? us? anyone?)...actually I don't know where you're going with that. Could you clarify? I'm trying to do many things at once right now-maybe if i sat down later and read it with no distractions..
I didn't think I said god wrote the bible or insinuated that either. As far as I can tell, we're on the same side of the fence here, Griz.If you mean that the bible was written by the voice of god-written through people like a conduit to paper, then yes I suppose....I am totally lost. You reaalllly need to use more than 3 senteces for a thought thats 3 pages long, you know? I can smell what you're cooking, but I'd rather eat it.(than smell it.ha.)

im no religious person, so i hope you werent directing "your faith" at me. I skipped over the part about the sandwich, because metaphors over two lines long usually don't pan out.=)

Backtoreality- Your comment about god not wanting to listen is completely paradoxical in the argument that god loves everyone and created us equally.

As far as I understand(simply put) First all you have to do is give yourself to god, and he'll be there. Even the "lost" ones are still tended to by god's watchful eyes and ears. We are all god's children
You are insinuating god likes some of his children more than others. Which would,in fact, be a HUMAN characteristic.So either you're insulting god by projecting our imperfect qualities onto him, or that he, after all, is not as fair as most of these people were previously arguing. So my question is, god's child, why would you ostracize someone from your all including god from the rest of god's children? Why would you try to put human context on a perfect being? It's amazing how much you can undo in an argument with one erroneous statement.

Why is it, almsot every time i post anything on almost any topic, the discussion dies down or no one responds to my posts? Do I need to dumb it down? Or am I actually hitting home hard enough that either people realize things in a different light, or just don't want to try and tackle big questions and issues? It's like every time I put in my two cents for an intelligent discussion, no one wants to retort. Loss for words? Loss for god?I really enjoy a good discussion, but I find it hard to get around here. Mental Midgits?Afraid I might shatter a false reality?

Yes, I AM trying to sound incredibly conceited and arrogant right now.

The only good bug is a dead bug.

Maybe even God doesn't want to listen to joejack spout his nonsense. Anybody else find it a little more than coincedental that for the most part it has been sunny and fairly nice outside all week, then the day this guy chose to go stand on his stool it's all rainy and cold?

Pete - which god and why that particular god - did you try out some others? Or does your worship of the christian god result from the global location you happened to be born in?

God, whatever He may be, is not a citizen.

So OK - you guys don't flinch at stoning people that engage in sex outside of marriage or the tearing apart of 42 people with she-bears. Those are both acts of a loving caring god. But the passages that clearly spell out rape - thats not rape. OK.
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This probably isn't rape either - just slaughter and slavery, which shows how much respect god has for human life.
Numbers 31 -
15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Joejack. I find your generalized idea of god being perfect really entertaining. So, because he IS perfect, and made us not perfect-and we have to atone for being imperfect....
Well god is quite the cynical ass,isn't he?

"I'll make you in my image-but not as good, so for eternity you are forced to worship me and adhere to my laws because I made you less than me."
He sure isn't fair. The basic idea of him making us for the purpose of worshipping him;how can you possibly bend over and concede to that logic? I can't wrap my brain around why you would want to subject yourself to giving up and admitting you'll never be good enough unless you bow down. Much like a few regimes I've heard of...world war 2 anyone?

Sound like a guy on a power trip wrote a book.
O,wait.....;)

DiGriz- So the bible is real-but following it is a joke? I don't understand your argument...

If we were created in the image of god, what would please god more than to live in defiance of his rules and laws? Wouldn't that be man in god's image instead of god in man's? I think he would beam with pride-should he exist- looking down and seeing countless people denying,even defying his very existence. To defy god and choose your own path independently...well...that's as close to god's will as you're ever going to get.

All you bible thumpers will get up to heaven and he'll say"your life was kind of mundane-didn't you ever want to break the rules and do your own thing? THOSE are the fun one's I like to watch."

Whether you're a beleiver or not- I think either way is justification to NOT follow the "good book". To be created in god's image and to follow "his" rules is, in itself, a bit of a paradox.
Think he follows someone elses rules?
Why would he want us to do the same?
Imagine if EVERYONE beleived the same book, did the same practices.Not questioning him? Boring!!!
I bet God would be ashamed and smite us for lack of purpose.

Congratulations, weeds, you got it partly right.

I personally think DiGriz is the only rational one here.

Rocky, you and others can say it all you want but neither Luke nor Matthew give a genealogy of Mary. Their claim is that Jesus is descended from David et. al. by way of Joseph. When theologians in the fifteenth century started claiming that a genealogy of Mary was in Luke and Matthew that didn't make it so. Serious scholars reject the claim of a genealogy for Mary.

Again, my point is: There are so many lies in the bible and there are so many lies being told by theologians that they and believers find it impossible to keep it all straight.

READ YOUR BIBLE AGAIN!!! (Apparently six times hasn't been enough.)

Oh God is so unjust, we humans are way better than God and deserve so much from him. Consider we have all violated Gods laws and are law breakers. How dare God take control of his creation and set consequences for our actions. God is so unjust, God is not Good. STOP IT!! YOU FOOLS!! How moral are all of you that call God unjust? Are you Morally Perfect? Just Stop you don't know what your talking about. Prounion seems to be the leader of ignorance around here when it comes to the things of God.

I am not afraid to defend my God though He needs no defense from me. I will be his spokes man tonight folks. Come yell at me tell me how unjust my God, The Holy One, The perfect One, The True and living God, Tell me how you don't believe in Him. As far as religion being made up, what about Atheism. That is the biggest religion full of people who don't believe in anything. You don't know there is no God. You are hoping that when you Die there is no God and no Judgment Day! talk about a false hope and an empty life!

Riverside Park Beloit tonight 6-7pm.
"The Fool has said in his heart there is no God" Some of you sure seem foolish!

Prounion - as has already been pointed out, the verses to which you refer address fornication, not rape. The woman "not crying out" indicates a consenting encounter, hence the stoning of both parties. Had she cried out, as would be the case in most rapes, the man, only, would be held accountable. In any event - the putting to death of the man hardly fits your description of "endorsement" of rape.

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In your quote of the passage where the young men mock Elisha and are mauled, it should be noted that scholars generally agree that the boys were mocking him as a prophet of God - not just because of his baldness, and mocking God can have some pretty nasty consequences. There will even be a judgement day for you, my friend, on which you shall be called to account for your mocking of God. Then Jesus, Himself, will be your judge. The consequences will not be pleasant if you don't repent and accept His free gift of salvation.

Rocky - I love how christians are more concerned with the opinion of the reader previous to the reading of the bible. Like there is no independant truth in there. You arguement is that the bible is only exactly what the reader wants it to be, nothing more. Well then don't use it to impose policy.

GF - I do read my Bible - daily - been through it cover to cover about 6 times, plus many other selected books/chapters re-read for memorization or to gain deeper understanding. That is why I know that the verses you are quoting do account for the fact that both Joseph and Mary were of the house and lineage of David. While Joseph was Jesus' earthly "father" but not the biological father, it may interest you to know that the only real lineage that matters in Jewish culture is that of the Mother. To this day, children born of a Jewish father and a gentile mother are not considered truly "jewish", but those born of a Jewish mother are "jewish" regardless of the father's background. But I digress.....

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From your writing it is clear that you reject the idea of the virgin birth of Christ from the beginning - so for one with a closed mind, I wouldn't expect you to find evidence in the Bible to contradict your foregone conclusions. But for the gentle reader who has an open mind, I repeat - the lineage of Joesph is given in the texts, but it is made very clear that Joesph was not the biological father of Jesus as well.

Please Pete - what is god then? Is the bible not god's divine word? Is the bible not god's way of letting us know who he is and how to behave?

So, god is perfect, he creates man, imperfect. So now man is imperfect(sin) and must pay for that, in which the said god demands worship or man will go to hell because he had no choice in how he was created. So, because 'god' screwed up(they say he's perfect), man lives in torment and fear unless he finds god and and is forgiven of all his sins.

Logically speaking, the whole god theory is a joke. Hell of a money maker for churches though as long as there are enough poor, lost, wandering saps unable to think for themselves willing to take a leap of faith into the donation bucket.

Kinshon we aim to please - guess the rape thing is settled now huh?
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They are collecting dead bodies in Somoa, entire villages are now just gone. I hope that god is a little less angry at us for sin now that he hit them with the earthquake.

Just a little food for thought.It's ok to be afraid of death- it's ok to even fear life itself, but that doesn't justify selling yourself out to the easy answer. God did it. He made it. He said it. It's his will, his commandments....blah blah blah.
The bible is obviously the greatest practical joke ever played in the history of mankind.

Everyone is afraid to die, in some degree or another. Everyone looks for a meaning or a reason we live-and die. All religions have one thing in common- fear.

All are based on the fear that if you do not give your complete devotion to this person or thing, you will go to hell, not have a good afterlife, not have an afterlife, etc.
Deep down, religion is just an easy way to ease the mind for questions such as "what do i do?" "where do i go when i die?" "how did we get here?" "why are we here"?
If you answer god/bible to all of these questions, and live your life by a book someone wrote that not a person in the world has any single living memory or recollection of...
well, you're selling yourself awfully short of your potential,don't you think?To think? To wonder? To try and make sense in another light? It's in every animals nature to be inquisitive. To kill the inquiry, well that kind of defeats the point of living, if you ask me.

If the question here is "should religion play a part in any matter of government?"
Then no, most certainly not. Was this nation founded "under god"? Certainly. Have hundreds of years passed since? Have we proven the world isn't flat? That evolution is happening?Certainly. Thump your bible all you'd like, but please save it for the dinner table, not law systems.Laws need to be decided from publicly selected team of open minded, logical people with high moral standards,unbiased from religious tethers.

I find it funny seeing all these bible quotes on this comment post. I mean,really? I'm so far past considering letting a book and an invisible force dictate my actions and beliefs, you mine as well tell me you can make voodoo dolls work on me,too.
The only difference between a cult and a religion is the quantity of followers- for crying out loud there's even a tax break status after members of a cult reach a certain number in the united states. After the magic number- Ta Da! With one extra member you can go from cult pariahs to an independently recognized religion. Hope, I understand. Blind faith...it defies logic.

As far as religion and gay marriage;
Step One; Remove religion aspect from gay-marriage fiasco
Step two; take a step back and realize without religion it is a civil and moral matter,not religious
Step three; Concede that it should be an individual's constitutional right to marry who they please.

Many argue marriage is a union between a man and a woman. Well, times change. Alcohol used to be outlawed. Heroin used to be legal and sold as cough suppressant, doesn't make it right. For better or worse, it's time to let people decide who they want to be with for their own reasons. My hypothesis is if you are against gay marriage- you're probably either a) a homophobe b) stuck in the closet or c) letting your religion dictate your thought process.
What is everyone so afraid of giving equal rights to gays for? Anyone remember Rosa Parks? Insert gays in place of blacks. The answer is obvious. Give them equal rights!

Alright, bring on the mud. ;)

The left's appreciation of diversity and endless tolerance never ceases to amaze.

i tried talkin to jesus. he just put me on hold. said hes been swamped by calls this week. and he could not shake his cold.

Matt - read your bible and get back to us with an arguement against god endorsing rape, ripping young people apart with she-bears, encouraging and participating in genocide, slavery, ect.
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Or at least add some wit and sarcasm to your insults.

Perhaps God took control of the bodies of the various authors of the Bible and therefore did actually write the Bible. If that was the case then the Bible would contain no mistakes whatsoever. Also: maybe God took control of the bodies of the people who translated the Bible into the various languages and ""versions"". In that case the Bible would truely be the "word of God". Somehow I doubt it.

Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, and Shemp.

matthew666, you're quite the scholar. Why don't you try responding to posts that point out what's in the bible.

If you believe the bible is a perfect code for living life then you should sell your daughter into prostitution for talking back.

Read your bible.

(you know, the book created by OUR creator???)....

I thought the authors of the Bible were regular guys name Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc. Which chapers are you referring to that God wrote?

prounion and gazettefan, Make sure to bow your heads every nite and say a prayer to YOUR God who is that white porcelin stool in your bathroom that you spend countless hours around since you're both full of so much "CRAP". As Abe Lincoln said, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt" .........You guys are very convincing to say the least! You've got everyone convinced that there really are pompus, arrogant fools out there who live in their close minded own world of actually believing you're never wrong! I have news for you! There is absolute truth in this world and it's only found in the Holy Bible, (you know, the book created by OUR creator???)....so live with it. Because whether you choose to agree with it or not, you're going to die one day and find out life doesn't evolve around you and life isn't a dress rehearsal! I promise you I'll pray hard for you guys.

Rocky, to clarify, I am not choosing Joseph as the blood father of Jesus over the virgin birth claim, or vice-versa. Both are preposterous: the virgin birth for the obvious reasons, and Joseph as the blood father for the purpose of a lineage to David, Abraham, and Adam.

My point is that the writers of the New Testament wrote so many lies that it was hard for them and the people who chose what ended up in the NT to keep track of all those lies.

One of the reasons for the claim of the virgin birth was to render woman as dirty creatures under all circumstances: Jesus could not be connected with sex -even matrimonial sex. Another reason was to express the inherent anti-semitism of christianity with a pure "re-birth" that transcended Judaism.

At the same time, the writers and the editors of the bible wanted to exploit the antiquity of the old Old Testament for the purpose of legitimizing christianity. This accounts for the genealogies. But even the genealogies are in conflict. Importantly, there is no way for any genealogy to be accurate back then.

Read your bible.

Pete
I agree that conservatism is an ideology, and does not have an explicitly religious agenda, but a lot of people on the right blur that distinction. And perception is reality to a lot of people.

Rocky, nothing you've said changes the claim by Matthew that Jesus was descended from Abraham and the claim by Luke that Jesus was descended from Adam -by way of Joseph.

Really Pete you think god is a pretty easy going guy huh?
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2 Kings 2:23-24 (King James Version)

23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

42 people torn apart for a bald joke, the christian god is vicious.

The problem with religious activism is that is completely cuts off non-believers from the debate. It is completely plausible that an atheist can be against abortion on moral grounds, but they are not going to join a movement where the thing they believe (abortion is bad) is an offshoot of another belief that they believe is illogical (the belief in God). You are also not going to convert any convertable atheist with the argument that God disapproves of something. Keep the religious aspect out of the political arena and I believe the conservatives may see more success. This is how they got "intelligent design" into some public schools. Save the religious talk for another forum.

Pete, your little analogy is pathetic pandering. That is exactly why stupid people believe God wrote the bible. They listen to the logic of analogies like yours and tell themselves "gee, I'm stupid enough to listen to my friends about speed limtits, and I watch a lot of TV, so I can totally relate to getting busted by a smart judge". Problem is, smart people would not be able to relate to that analogy.

Kinsohn really? Maybe you should read the bible - here is an except from earlier in the same chapter:
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23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
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God endorses rape - want yet another bible passage that spells it out for you?

That's not rape, it's fornication. Of course, you knew that, but purposely twisted the verse. Classy.

Basically, if a couple was caught, they had to marry in order that the girl wouldn't be abandoned (as she was no longer marriage material).

That ensured that the girl wasn't left out as a beggar, which is a pretty good rule, especially in those days.

Now they're free of such nonsense, especially in the inner cities where such primitive mores are done with and Democrats pull in 80% of the vote and about the same percentage of kids are illegitimate. Working out real well.

GF - did you READ Mt 3:23? It says "Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli...."

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Did you catch the "so it was thought"? In Matthew, Joseph is referred to as "the husband of Mary" - not as the father of Jesus.

Proving God is real in 30 seconds???!!! Well, I for one do not want to miss this one. I wonder if there will be a beer garden.....

Rape - if you get caught you get a wife and have to pay 50 sheckles - god sure is a great source of morality:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (King James Version)

28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Slavery: another example of god's moral compass?
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Exodus 21:20-21 (King James Version)

20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Sarah, great idea. I'll say a quick prayer for gazettefan and prounion in print: "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" ~ Amen!

So many unfounded accusations about Christianity non that can be backed up or proven. All you really want is for there to be no God so you can be accountable to no body but yourself. I will be at Riverside park Thursday Oct 1st from 6 -7pm regardless if anyone shows up. I just know that if you don't believe in something you really have no defense. So I understand if your not able to come out and take a stand.

As far as privacy, I am not a mind reader I have no Idea who you really are and it would make no difference. The Gospel will be preached Thursday. To bad you can't stand up for what you believe in.

LOL primer

prounion, we have to figure out how "fee will" caused that tsunami.

Darth Vader was Luke's father.

More evidence of a loving caring god, worship me or your children Die!
Leviticus 26:
21And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

22I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

God is very angry at American Samoa.

LOL

mytoyota, Luke 3:23-28 and Matthew 1:1-17

Get back to us.

G - you may have done it again, made a christian read the bible. Well done.

gazettefan: Where in Matthew and Luke do you get that information about Joseph being Jesus' blood father? And someone who is an anti-Christ may believe that Jesus was a person but doesn't believe or agree with all the Bible says He is.

Sorry, RAF, I got you mixed up with Methuselah.

SarahB1, the idea of you having thoughts about me while you're in bed has made my day.

GF is wrong on so many areas, including guessing a persons age, no surprise though...

I guess none of the believers on this blog are bible scholars.

coushsit, there you've done it. You've stirred up RAF. The godfather of the Metamucil mafia gets all cranky when religious people are accused of assuming the moral highground. Expect trouble.

To Quote Homer Simpson: (Trying to get out of going to church) "And what if we picked the wrong religion? Every week, we're just making God madder and madder!" Same thing can be said for basing laws on religious beliefs. The thing that bothers me most is that people cannot separate morality and decency from religion. To some people, everything that is moral has to religious and to others everything that is religious is moral.

Maybe one of you believers here can answer this question:

What do you make of Luke's and Matthew's genealogies that have Joseph as Jesus' blood father thus doing fatal damage to the claim of virgin birth?

kinsohn....THUMBS UP on that one!

I'd have to say that having faith in yourself and mankind is blind. Having faith in a man that 10 disciples knew personally and, when faced with terrible deaths or renouncing the man's claim of being the son of God, chose terrible deaths, well, I'd have to say that's got a a lot more "substance" than anything you're likely to accomplish any time soon.

Let me know when anyone chooses to die rather than say you're not the son of God. Or better yet, when they pray to mankind and a miracle occurs.

Until then, I'll stick with my blind faith.

blind faith? I'm all for people having their own beliefs, no question. There's the groups out there with their own selfish agenda's that have no interest in respecting people's faith or religions. It's their way or the highway. That's the problem I have with it. I have faith in myself and mankind as well, unfortunately, it's been proven that man is of a fallen nature and needs a moral compass in their life. The moral compass we've had in this country has worked for 200+ years and we're seeing the fallout effect from it as the post modern worldviewers trudge forward.

matthew516-I only speak for myself. I didn't say anything about christians- only believers and religious people. And as for the anti-christ label you gave me, I am not the anti-christ; you've been watching too much TV. I know Jesus was a real person, but I don't believe in immaculate conception; humans can't asexually reproduce. I don't believe in creationism. I went to church every time my family went for the first 11 years of my life. When the people could not answer my questions with anything but "faith", I knew it was a sham. And that's too bad, too, because Jesus' message is a good one- be kind and decent to others and help eachother in times of need. I am still kind and decent to others and I always try to help people less fortunate than I am. Faith in myself and mankind has more substance, in my opinion, than blind faith in anything.

"to be ignorant and simple now...would be to throw down our weapons and to betray our uneducated brethren who have, under God, no defense but us against the intellectual attacks of the heathen."

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people that try to put their religion on others. It's so obvious why the bible was written in the first place. There was no control over the people. Everyone did what they wanted to. There was no education. The religious people decided to write the bible to get the masses under control. They decided that if they put fear in the people that they would be able to control them. Let's make up a heaven and hell. Say that heaven is everything you would ever want it to be and say that hell is just the oposite. Who wouldn't want to obey us then. In modern times were are given a choice to believe what we want to believe. If you believe in heaven then great for you. If you believe in the bible, then great for you. Just don't use it to make other's believe what you do. For all you know it's not like that at all. Let me know when someone returns from the dead and says there is a heaven or hell. Don't give me that bible talk about people talking about heaven. That was another story to keep the people in line. Fear is the bible's biggest asset. There are a lot of people that think the way I do. We don't go out and kill babies or steal from others. We help our fellow man probably more than you do.

Seriously... some advice about privacy and anonymity for anyone visiting Riverside Park on Oct 1st: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9...

You can't un-ring a bell!

Maybe one of you believers here can answer this question:

What do you make of Luke's and Matthew's genealogies that have Joseph as Jesus' blood father thus doing fatal damage to the claim of virgin birth?

(Take your time.)

Hey, do any of you believers watch Sister Angelica?

Now that's must see TV. Sometimes they run Sister Angelica: The Lost Episodes. She was hot back then.

thekid, we're right. They are monitoring my posts.

sorry prounion, I didn't mean to leave the other half of "Laurel and Hardy" out! God bless you too!

Thou shalt not kill.

Except for non-chrisitians and christians who disagree with what christianity "really" is.

gazettefan's posts are monitored because it's the cheapest form of entertainment out there! It's got "Desperate Housewives", "Grays Antatomy", "Jerry Springer" (you know, all those morally sound shows for our generations to take in) beat all to heck!

You guys are making a great case in regards to your infinite ignorance. You're just proving why God's laws are so needed because without them, there are no moral guides to base the laws on. The need for God's wisdom in people's life is evident here. You're right. A baby cannot speak from their mothers womb, therefore, those mothers need some form of moral guidance to base good sound judgement on. God makes everything clear. Thou shalt not kill. There gazettefan, I've given you some great fuel so you can continue making an even bigger fool out of yourself! Don't worry though, have faith! Jesus saves! :)

Christians are all about the slaughter, its endorsed heavily in the bible so of course when they meet a new people they introduce them to religious slaughter. Christianity is violence, just like god's word demands.

thekid, they monitor my posts in an effort to improve their sentence structure.

Acai, here's my answer to your stupid question:

Just be glad I allowed you to be born.

matthew...., the early Americans were certainly using god's laws when they slaughtered the Indians.

gfan: how come these people know every time you sneeze??

thats funny gfan. i remember being in my moms belly and hearing some people talk about the hypocrisy of how they could buy alcohol at 18 but could not buy pot at any age. i sooo wanted to get the message to my mom that it was ok if she wanted a puff or two...but she failed to get that message so my journey had to wait...:)

i actually said 'tool on the stool'.

Acai, LOL!!!!!!

Gazettefan, aren't you glad your mother made the decision to give birth to you as opposed to the immoral decision of killing you in her womb?? As pompus and arrogant as you are, your mother probably had second thoughts about that decision as well.

It's a good thing the founding fathers of this country used God's laws as a moral compass to base the laws of our land on rather than someone like gazettefan's! kleej, I'll second that motion, God bless you gazettefan!

gazettefan, I expected that from you. You make "matthew516's" case valid every time you post. God bless you just the same however.

matthew...., are you aware that being baggage to something and being loyal to the same thing are diametrically opposed? I guess that kind of thinking comes easy to you.

Good question, Kleej. Why don't you recount some the thoughts you had while you were in your mother's belly?

"whythink", your words are duly noted and have great merit. I've got a question I must ask of you regarding abortion. You don't feel it should be made illegal and you're all for reducing unwanted pregnancies. I respect that. My question is, would you feel the same way if you were in your mothers belly??

partarican~ Do me a favor and speak for you. Many, (not all) anti-Christs like to label the whole group in regards to those of Christian faith which is simply wrong and untrue. Notice I didn't label the non-believers and only those whom which it applied to?? The anti-Christs are stuck with their "baggage" too, Christians don't corner the market there! (as gazettefan loyally exemplifies)

This blog proves the point that religious people think non-believers are "wrong and unintelligent". What a huge mistake. People who don't believe don't worship Darwin. They accept his knowledge as truth; no worship necessary. Do people worship Edison every time they turn on the lights? Do they worship Tesla when they listen to the radio? No, but I'd venture a guess that non-believers require proof of existance and religion does not offer proof of anything.

matthew...., thanks, finally some really Good News.

I speak for God! With my actions, which certainly doesn't include spending 24/7 in a public blog.

Prounion, come on out and see. Thursday evening 6pm to 7pm. Come find out why being an atheist is wrong and unintelligent.

TheKidz - Wish I was that man, I would have told you more than that, come and see.

I know most of you wont show up, since you believe in nothing. It's hard to prove. So I understand if you don't show.

Prounion come for 30 seconds and leave. At least your curiosity wont kill you. Proving God's existiance is a no brainer and very easy to do. Wont take long at all.
Thursday Riverside Park Beloit!! Fool on the Stool. <-- I like that I am going to copyright it.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Cor 1:21 AMEN!!

Intersting topic. I am about to start reading the book, "The Great Awakening, Reviving Faith & Politics in a Post-Religious Right America." by Jim Walls. Similar topic.
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Personally, I don't let religon connect to my political views. For example, I am pro-life, but do not believe in making abortion illegal. I am in favor of doing everything we can to reduce the number of unwanted pregancies. By doing that, the number of abortions will be reduced. My personal view is pro-life, but I don't believe that gives me the right to tell someone else what to do.
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I have many liberal viewpoints while being religous. I believe you can do both. Plus, I can be understanding of someone else and say, support gay marriage while at the same time not choosing to enter a gay marriage.
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I guess the bottom line for me, is I have faith in God but don't use that faith as an excuse to judge others. If two guys choose to get married and can stay married for their entire life that is a positive...more positive than the way, 50% of heterosexual marriages that end in divorce.
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I have been blessed, great wife, good job, decent health, beautiful children and want others to have that same blessing. I don't let my faith lead me down a path that tells others how to live.
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Others have the right to their faith/beliefs also, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Wow, thekid, we both wrote "fool on ... stool" at the exact same time!

So Pete - anything you can't explain is due to god huh?

joejack, the last thing anyone wants to see is a fool sitting on his own stool.

pete, read the rules: drunk blogging doesn't begin until 6pm.

Joe - could you please provide a little more information on the 30 seconds proof of gods existance you have planned?

God doesn't need anyone to "speak for Him". God speaks for Himself. Look around you and see the evidence. Read His Word and "hear" for yourself.

Defending what you believe against me should not be hard since I'm not smart enough to even put the time I will be at the Park. I will be there 6pm to 7pm on Thursday. Come find out what the bible really says about you! Or hide behind your computer and make claims you can't prove, where there is no one to challenge you.

Everybody is pretty bold to claim there is no God on a blog, why don't you come out in person, Thursday October 1st to Riverside Park in Beloit. I will be there speaking out against Evolution, Abortion, and I will prove to anyone that shows up in 30 seconds that God exists! I am sure most won't show up since they have no defense for what they don't believe in.

I wont be hard to find, I will be the one with A Bible and A stool. Come if you dare!

Also RAF - no results huh? I seem to remember you being quite prolific on the article where someone from janesville had to go to China for treatment.

DiGriz, the Preamble to the Constitution emphasizes what can't be left to the individual states:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

RAF, you really know how to degrade a conversation. What was Bush's point if not to interfere with stem-cell research for religious reasons?

“It is religiosity that is interfering with stem-cell research.”
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Yeah, that’s the reason. Damn religious nuts, if it wasn’t for them Christopher Reeve would have walked again…

Kind of hurts when reality slaps you in the face. The lack of results, based on expectations, has all to do with the complexity in the science and cost involved in the research not religiosity.

It is religiosity that is interfering with stem-cell research.

pete, the polio virus was almost totally eradicated from the planet with the help of taxpayer dollars.

And "states rights" would Balkinize this country. You talk like you should understand the dangers of Balkinization.

I Do Too!!

pete, then you and your ilk can keep your noses out of complicated things like stem-cell research.

There are two kinds of people who claim to know God. Those that find him useful and those who find him beautiful. Then there are those who don't claim him at all. All are free to worship as they please in this country. I am grateful for that fact.

conservatives "...continue to identify abortion (85%) and same-sex marriage (65%) as their most important issues."

liberals "...put poverty (74%), health care (67%) and the environment (56%) at the top of their list..."

This sums up the biggest difference between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives are more concerned with preventing individuals from enjoying individual freedoms our forefathers defended with their lives. They seem duty-bound to restrict any behavior which they deem "immoral". That "ideology" is more important than the quality of a persons life here on earth. Our constitution was NOT based on the Bible. In fact, the framers of our Constitution made every attempt to PREVENT the church from having an impact in how we live our lives thus the separation of church and state. Our founders sought a place where individuals could exercise their right to live their lives as THEY desired, as long as it didn't infringe on another persons freedom; who emphasized the need to have balanced forces pushing against each other to prevent tyranny. Allow the church to guide our morals, not the government!
Liberals, on the other hand, tend to support legislation or programs which benefit and improve individual lives. God placed us on this earth for a purpose, part of which include giving aid to those less fortunate or in need of help and working to keep our environment clean. After all, what better way to serve God than to treat with respect and care ALL his creations.
If Conservatives really believed God was important, why wouldn't they be more concerned the environment? The first chapter of the Bible begins with God creating the earth and everything on it, yet we don't think twice about how the products we purchase and use impact our planet. Even though our planet sustains all that God created, it is not more valuable than a human life nor is it less valuable. Although the original articles of the Constitution were not perfect (ex: slavery), over the years amendments have only strengthened the documents standing as a symbol of freedom millions envy and others seek to destroy.

Capitalism, Socialism, Catholicism, Buddhism, Zionism, Patriotism -- the list goes on and on. In reality, there is just one that applies...Darwinism (i.e. natural selection). All the rest are merely illusory social constructs and tribal control methods.

God is indifferent (though possessing a keen sense of that irony!) and callous, and likely exists in a form no human being can comprehend. He/she/it does not really care if your local sports team wins, if you have a "safe trip" or a "nice day," or if a million children starve to death this week. Or if he does care, he appears to do nothing to stop the carnage! "In God We Trust" on our money? More likely "In Money (and power) We Trust" inscribed on our Golden Calf or our anthropomorphic representations of God or prophets!

If you can realize and admit that every individual's conception of "God" is, at the least, slightly if not dramatically different than every other person's image, then you have to conclude that either everyone but one person on this planet is accordingly in error about God, or all of them are!

Does it bother you to consider this possibility? Then do what people have done through the ages -- continue to delude yourself that you are without doubt one of his "Chosen People" and that everyone outside that select and divinely ordained group is wrong and ultimately Hell-bound for eternity! Now, doesn't that make you feel better?

Hey, pete, was god using his free will when he slaughtered all those people, including women, children, and babies, in the bible? Or does he have an occasional psychotic breakdown?

If God exists I certainly hope that He (or She, or It) takes this opportunity to create a Gazette login and let everybody know that He can speak for Himself and that He doesn't need anybody to speak on His behalf.

Maybe we should let god speak for himself and enjoy the silence. Maybe we should let god act for himself and enjoy the peace.

You're incorrigible, DiGriz! :-)

I am so thankful for these blogs. I start everyday off with a good laugh. There but for the Grace of God

Excellent point, SarahB1

JoeJack:
"Clearly according to Godly, moral standards neither where or are a man of christian faith."
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And which "Godly, moral standards" are you referring to? The definition you see as true. Try your hardest to remember that your definition is quite different from mine...I wouldn't presume to tell you which is more "Godly" or even which of the two is correct. I find it hillarious that JoeJack seems to feel that he can define what is "Godly." I mean, do you really think that you speak for God? I'd say that's a little delusional, to say the least.
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Whoanellie, you'll have to forgive me for not taking anything you write seriously, especially when it involves history. In one of your past posts, you compare Obama to Hitler...which is insulting on a wide variety of levels.

There was separation of church and state so that the STATE could not make any religion the state religion. Like what was in England when we fought so hard to get free from them. So many people interpret that so wrong!! and joejack: AMEN!!!

Glad to see there is no slanted journalism taking place in this article. Calling George Tiller a man of faith is like saying President Obama is a Christian. Clearly according to Godly, moral standards neither where or are a man of christian faith. George Tiller was an evil man that did evil things to baby's! The end!

As far as the rest of the article is concerned, Who cares what everyone thinks. What matters is what is truth? Jesus Said he is truth. Outside of him everything is a lie. You have God's word on it!

How do you speak for someone(something) that does not exist?

One day, conservative activists will vigorously support strict separation of church and state when they wake up to learn that the overwhelmingly majority of people in their state are members of a religion they vigorously oppose.