Mark Williams is the real Satan.

Barry Soetoro lied, and Jimmy Carter is a moron.

alliebaba: This is not the place for your family photos, you sicko!

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrus...
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Next we'll have the 1984 Orwellian new speak dictionary coming out so we will all know what is allowed to be said. This administration is getting more bizarre by the day.

I don't know why you two are making jokes - I thought Palin and now Wilson were well respected in the Republican party?

It is unfortunate that Kennedy had passed away......A Kennedy/Spitzer 2012 ticket would have been all the rage......Booze and hookers--how much more fun could that have been:)

FOAD Sally

Pelosi/Reid would make a great ticket also.

Palin/Wilson 2012?

"Opinions are respected when they are honest, reasoned and factual..."
--

This is the reason your opinions are ignored.

Once again DizzyGirl somehow finds a way to justify torture using scenarios that don't exist. When has torture directly saved a life? When? Name one actual instance. You can't. Why? Because these realities only exist in the fantasies of the right. I find it incredibly ironic that the party that constantly berates the left for moral relativism practices it without apology like the hypocrites they are.

Joe Wilson and his ilk should have been removed by the sergeant at arms. I don't know if Fox News realizes this but this is not Britain, nor do we have a Parliament. If they were so interested in debate they shouldn't have committed treason when they revealed the identity of a CIA operative to try to squelch such debate when going to war in Iraq.

Opinions are respected when they are honest, reasoned and factual and not the paranoid delusions of a bunch of ignorant buffoons.

Federal money is used to subsidize emergency treatment for illegals now, Joe wilson voted for it in 2003. Obama said that under the health care plan, illegals would not be getting money to buy insurance.

MSNBC published an article on Friday wherein the White House admitted in a "clarification" that federal money would be used to subsidize hospitals providing care to illegal aliens. Looks like Wilson was right. Attaboy, Joe! There is only one question here: did Obama know what he was saying was untrue but he said it anyway, or did Obama not know what he was talking about, and which one is worse? It's one thing to have a president that's a liar - we had Clinton for 8 years, and it's another thing to have a president who is incompetent - we managed to survive Jimmy Carter, didn't we? But to have a president who is both a liar, and incompetent as well as being a Communist is really a bit much to have to take.

http://www.gunlaws.com/GunLawUpdate3.htm...
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http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=...
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http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/Bara...

http://profiles.numbersusa.com/improfile...

theone: What do I think of that? Not much, really. I respect their opinion, as I would hope others would respect mine. Maybe I have a little different perspective than they do. I notice that only two of them have any combat experience. The rest are all SJA (JAG) officers, or Adjutant General Corps. I find that suspect, of course for the same reason that in order to attain the presidency in this country, one pretty much has to have a law degree from Harvard and have been a member of "Skull and Crossbones".... Anyway, I respect their service, and in no way would try to deminish it other than noting the fact that the letter was written by essentially a bunch of attorneys. That is a profession I do not respect.
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Let me be clear, I don't think that torturing people is a good thing. But it may sometimes be necessary. When it happens, I don't think anyone needs to know about it. - We hold ourselves up on a pedestal, and dare everyone else to raise themselves to our level. Why should they?
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The letter to which you linked talks about McCain in Vietnam. The contention that the Geneva Convention (GC) was beneficial to them is just that, a contention. I think the real reason any of them survived is that there was political value in keeping them alive if possible, that's all. I think the only thing that saved most of them was that they served their purpose in getting the U.S. to stop bombing Hanoi in return (in part) for their safe release. The Vietnamese understood that Hanoi was about to become Dresden. THAT is something they could understand. The GC had nothing to do with it, just like it had nothing to do with the way U.S. POW's were treated by the Japanese in WWII. I knew one personally, one of my father's best friends, Ralph Pope from Edgerton. He was captured on Corrigedor, and spent the rest of the war as a POW, mostly at Bilibid in the P.I. He HATED the Japanese until the day he died for not only what they did to him, but what he saw. The only reason he survived, is because he was useful to them. The GC had nothing to do with it.
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I was there in Kuwait in 1991 as a Marine Infantry Squad Leader. We treated the Iraqi prisoners with kindness and respect. How did they treat OUR prisoners? Cruelly. They were tortured, beaten, abused, raped.
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I'm not saying we should be like them. What I am saying is that we should, however, consider that by not being like them, we make things worse, or it makes no difference whatsoever. The only real fringe benefit that I see regarding our conduct in relation to prisoner treatment and torture is that it could persuade enemy combatants to surrender knowing that they would be well treated. You could not convince a WWII Marine of that, however.

Where is anybody`s proof that the "next part of the agenda" is to give amnesty to illegals? Where is the proof that more gun laws are on the way? Just because you think something could happen doesn`t make it true. andre, if you can find all the illegals and ship them home, fine. But, you can`t. Start by punishing the employers of illegals and they won`t hire them anymore, they will stop coming here, won`t they? Until we get serious about why they are here nothing will change.

+1 Andre--It is a problem that needs to be addressed immediately. What should be done is to make it next to impossible for them to work here. Seriously fine businesses/people that hire them and when someone is discovered to be an illegal, seize whatever property they have, be it a house, car, cash.......They are breaking the law by being here and should be considered criminals. I was at Woodmans a week ago buying groceries and holding up the line were 2 Hispanic women that didn't speak English. They had their free food assistance paperwork out and it looked like some of their groceries didn't qualify. The poor cashier was trying to explain to the women that they couldn't buy what they wanted to--the women started getting "testy" while raising their voices speaking Spanish. Frustrating situation all the way around and it has to stop.......

"You do not have to prove citizenship to buy bread, a car, or insurance"
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Does anybody else see the problem with this comment? Why should illegals even be allowed to remain in this country?!? This problem needs to be addressed before any health care reform takes place. Enforcing the immigration laws will curb plenty of the problems this country is currently facing. From health care, to unemployment and crime.

Take a time out Pete and collect your thoughts.

If you re-post the same unintelligible drivel...we'll know for sure not to take you seriously.

Just curious DiGriz...but what are your thoughts about these seasoned veterans and their view on the subject?

http://www.essentialliberties.com/archiv...

DiGriz, dito. We bombed hell out of German cities in WWII without much regard for citizens also. War is killing people and breaking things, it can't be won by pussies. After we get done torturing Achmed then we should lop his fanatic head off.

"Ya don't mess with RAHMBO! Oh what I wouldn't give to hear what he said."

Please. The look on Roy Blunt tells us he is not one bit intimidated by lollipop kid, short man syndrome, and trying to be tough for everything I am not Rahm.
Blunt has that grin that tells Rahm, "we have your votes boy, please accept the fact you will not get them for Obama's healthcare bill."

I find it perplexing that thorughout the campaign Obama talked about "change we can believe in", "A new era is needed in Washington". "Hope for the future and he picks a punk thug from Chicago who goes around bullying people. Out on the street alone, Rahm is just another person.

Vatoloco - yes, it does. But it's a double edged sword. Do I condone torture? Yes, in some instances where it would save American lives. Is saving American lives worth it? Well, we didn't seem to have much of a problem dropping A-bombs on Japan to do it - so we had that mindset at one time. Maybe it takes losing almost half a million dead and another million wounded for us to get there, but we do.
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The bad thing about it right now, is that the whole world thinks we are a bunch of pussies. They don't give a rat's patoot about our morals - that we would not condone torture.
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"No - Achmed - no torture!! Our prisoner is American, and they do not torture, so we must not lower ourselves...What? oh, of course you can still cut his head off. That is not torture..."
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Just because we take it out of our playbook will not stop them from doing it to us, and if they get captured, they have less to worry about, and less of a reason to give us any information at all, since we are a bunch of wimps when it comes to doing what is necessary. Isn't this a bit off topic, V??

DiGriz-On a different matter. I wanted to ask you what you thought about Attorney General Holder's witch hunt in launching investigations into interrogation techniques used when Bush was in office? Do you think this harms the security of this country?

"Anyone ever watch the British Parliment on the BBC?"
DiGriz-
I had a conversation with my wife about this. I saw many of these heated debates when Tony Blair was in office. Boy did they go after each other with even some name calling. Some of it was funny actually. Entertaining though.

Who are we crapping? Mr. adulterous Bill Clinton help start a certain disrespect for the office of the POTUS.

strange.. for the last 8 years it was un-american even treasonous to say ANYTHING against the "decider in chief" now its good to scream 'you lie' at the president during a speach to congress and the nation?

Illegals will not get any government money to purchase insurance, as Obama said. As of now they can buy insurance like you and I do, if HR3200 passes that will not change. You do not have to prove citizenship to buy bread, a car, or insurance

Barry Obama, the sly huckster, IS mendacious. Rep Wilson is correct in calling him a liar. The prophet/messiah Obama and his dupes and sycophants couldn't tell the the truth if they wanted to.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090912/ap_o...

This article was on the front page of yahoo the day after President Obama's speech. There is one paragraph that you need to read talking about health care to illegals.

Illegal immigrants were to be allowed in the exchange and even in the public plan if they used their own money under legislation that passed three committees in the House and one in the Senate. Before Friday, there was little indication that that would change, even in the crucial Senate Finance Committee, which is facing a deadline of early next week to complete a comprehensive health bill.

I find it funny that on Friday the Senate Finance Committee got together to look at this part of the bill and to make changes to it a day ofter President Obama's speech....Too Funny

Sarah, I'm not sure if that is even possible.
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Something else I thought of in regards to free speech. I don't see a problem with "You lie!" when the same congress is trying to say that Corporate donations to their reelection warchests should be considered "free speech" as it relates to Constitutionality.

DiGriz: Sounds like the Brits accomplish even less than our Congress.

Big deal. Free Speech. 1st Ammendment. And I have no problem with calling a duck a duck.
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Anyone ever watch the British Parliment on the BBC? PBS shows it or used to. About as fun to watch as "Enzyte" infomercials, but the point is that all they do is yell at each other and say "here, here" and other mumblings. As far as heated debate goes, the British Parliment makes our congress look like a bunch of seasoned citizens at a nursing home sitting around the T.V. watching Lawrence Welk re-runs.

The guy who threw the shoes was also overcome with emotion and did something that is a common way to show disrespect in his culture...and he's still in jail.
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Once again Obama shows that he is the better man by simply accepting Wilson's apology and moving on. Wilson is now trying to capitalize on his "infamy" to get campaign contributions. Tacky.

Joe has 31 years in the military and has an outburst like this? No discipline. When Congress passes this law, the courts will over turn and rule it unconstitutional. Health care for all, means Illegal immigrants also. Congress knows this.

janesvillemom
"Obama DID address tort reform"

"Looking into it" and "thinking about an initiative" to reform malpractice lawsuits is not definitive enough. We need more concrete details not the usual lip service from Obama. I am willing to roll the dice that it will get shuffled into a pile and never achieve an end result.

I guess if Bush can get a shoe thrown at him and it gets called "attemped murder", then Obama can get yelled at and it's a "direct attack".Might be a little more accurate to call it an "accusation" though.

Joe "PINHEAD" Wilson helped spread the lies about WMD's during the Bush era circus. I feel sorry for South Carolina, both their Congressmen are boneheads.

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/in...

There were boos for Obama too. I don't have a problem with that. There is a long history of boos on both sides, but not specific personal attacks like what Wilson did:

"In addition to the 1993 State of the Union, during which, as Begala pointed out, Republicans heckled Clinton, they also voiced their disapproval in three other Clinton State of the Union addresses, which were presumably attended by then-members of Congress Scarborough and Barr:

"Clinton's proposal to expand Medicare to allow Americans as young as 55 to buy into the system drew shouts of "no" and some boos from Republicans during his speech." [Chicago Tribune, 1/28/98]

"Only once did they unmistakably and collectively show their disapproval -- when Clinton spoke disparagingly of a GOP-sponsored constitutional amendment to balance the budget. Many Republicans hissed and some booed." [Los Angeles Times, 2/5/97]

"The upheaval wrought by the Republican election landslide was visible throughout the president's State of the Union address -- from the moment Speaker Newt Gingrich took the gavel to the striking silence that often greeted Clinton from the GOP. At one point, Republicans even booed. About 20 of them left as Clinton went on and on for an hour and 20 minutes." [Associated Press, 1/24/95]

Did this congressman react in the wrong fashion? Yes.

Did the President say a lie? Depends who you ask or what you read. Technically, the wording in some of the bills state coverage is only for legal citizens. Yet, when amendments for “banning” coverage to illegals were introduced they have been voted down (rejected); additionally there are no provisions for enforcement to bar coverage and the speaker of the house has said there will not be.

Question, if there will be no enforcement what is the metric used to support the Presidents words?

Janesvillemom--I actually find it funny that you think it's acceptable that Bush had to endure being "booed" by the Democrats during his State of the Union address(somehow you can justify this as not showing disrespect to a sitting president?) yet when a Rep. shouts out 2 words during a speech with regards to an issue which Obama clearly wasn't being completely upfront about--it's an unforgivable action.....Doesn't seem to make sense to me. I don't agree w/ either of the actions, but I would consider the booing throughout the entire speech much more annoying and disrespectful......

This Wilson guy obviously has no self-control.

janesvillemom: Not blatant racism? But "maybe even subconsiously"??? C'mon.... He was obviously extremely frustrated by listening to what he perceived as blatant untruths. Race had exactly NOTHING to do with it. Let's give up the race card, right now. This is not racism. Not even close.
I am ready to live in a society where civil discourse is the norm. How about you?

916WI: the article isn't about Wilson shouting, "You aren't telling the whole truth." The man yelled "YOU LIE!" at the President of the United States during a speech. The President did not lie and Mr. Wilson was completely disrespectful and out of line.

I don't think it was blatant racism, but his position on the flag does show a lack of understanding of the feelings that the history of slavery stirs up and the connection that flag has to those feelings. Therefore, I COULD believe that he does harbor some racism, maybe even subconsiously, that contributed to his disrespectful treatment of the President.

janesvillemom: Regarding your comment that he was "against removing the Confederate flag from the SC capital". That was an extremely divisive debate. My understanding was that, while the Southern Cross represented racism to many southern blacks (and rightfully so), it represented state's rights and Southern pride to many southern whites. I don't equate your comment with racism. And Btw, the south was right you know (and let me be clear, I refer to the right to secede from the union, not the "right" to own slaves). Being from Wisconsin, I didn't realize this until many years after my formal education!

Janesvillemom--Obama didn't lie--but, as the rest of your attached article also reports, he really wasn't completely forthright will all the facts either. He was very careful with how he sidestepped around the entire issue:)

Booing is expressing disagreement with an idea. Yelling "You lie!" is a direct attack on the President. See the difference? That is why booing is accepted and yelling at the President is not.

vatoloco did you watch the speech? Obama DID address tort reform (that's medical malpractice) IN THE SPEECH!

I didn't put much stock in the cries of racism until I read that Mr. Wilson was strongly against removing the Confederate flag from the SC capital when he was a state legislator. That does cause me to be concerned that there may have been some racism underlying his outburst.
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As for the truth,
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/obamas-...
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http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-wilson-obama-...
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http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...
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Anyone with an opposing fact checker? Even FOX news says that Obama didn't lie!

Minan.....here we go with the race card again.......I'm sure the outburst has more to do with the fact that O'bama was using the address as a forum to spread half-truths to a national audience. There is no denying that illegals will get care--Pelosi and the others have guaranteed as much when they made clear the fact that proof of citizenship would not be a requirement to receive medical care. While I disagree with the outburst, I'm sure that some are very frustrated with the way the public is being misled--sooner or later it was going to boil over.....

Rhambo? Seriously angeroonie....The little guy has to be around 5'8"/160 dripping wet--If he would have pulled that attitude in any other scene he would have been hurt badly........Rhambo--too funny:)

I'm glad that low life doesn't represent our state. It is obvious that he is a racist. Odds are if the president had be white he would have kept his out burst in check.

joe wilson. and joe the plumber. whats up w the joes gettin in O's grill??:)

Vatoloco, the point is, what Rep Wilson did was against the long established house rules. It is rather arcane, but adhered to explicitly. While booing in general is allowed, you may not directly address negative comments to any member. The office of President is respected, and the President is a visitor to the house. You respect the office in such a setting, while not necessarily respecting the man holding it. Wilson would have been appropriate to address his constituents after the address, and he could have said anything he wanted. To address the President in that fashion directly is a huge violation of congressional decorum.

Ya don't mess with RAHMBO! Oh what I wouldn't give to hear what he said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis...

My bad, he retired in 2003.

Isn't Joe Wilson an active colonel in the South Carolina Army National Guard? And if so, couldn't he be brought up on court martial charges for both insubordination to a commanding officer (The Commander-in-Chief) and also conduct unbecoming an officer? He should feel lucky that all he is facing is the wrath of criticism for an unprofessional and inappropriate outburst.

all together now! - Kumbaya
kind of brings a tear to my eye

Ah, nothing warms the heart like seeing two liberals engaging in a hug fest.

Why thank you SarahB1 and the feeling is quite mutual.

angeroonie123: I LOVEEEEE your comments and your responses. You definitely have more self-control than Rep. Wilson and his pals on these boards. Keep up the good work!

More recent reports have Miller raking in over $750,000.00 as of today.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...

"I'm sorry. I thought the topic was "Joe Wilson Losing it"."

angeroonie123, I was trying to make a point as how it is so much more insulting when you bash a Democrat than a Republican. Do you get the correlation?

Joe Wilson has raised over $200,000 since the outburst, I wonder if that'll give any other lawmakers ideas...

I'm sorry. I thought the topic was "Joe Wilson Losing it".

Why didn't Obama mention all the wasted taxpayer money that goes to all his trial attorney friends in frivolous medical lawsuits? These trial attorneys contribute more money that anyone else to the Dems. Why do you think Obama is so reluctant to discuss this issue of reforming medical malpractice?

"So when the Dems used to call Bush all sorts of names from Hitler to idiot it was o.k. because he was a Republican, but now that someone dares to say it to Obama's face it's "insulting".

I totally agree. Just think of this scenario. Imagine for a second what would have happened if former President Bush would have said that an African American policeman acted "stupidly" when he arrested a white college professor on a college campus. I am referring to the case of the professor Gates at Harvard. Just imagine the fallout. That's liberalism.

Um. Why are you telling me to "Relax"? I'm not the one getting all worked up and hysterical.

Relax Angeroonie!!!!! Why don't you throw up the contributions that the Obama campaign received from the labor unions? That'll shock you! Then the reasoning behind the UAW/GM bailout as well as the way the SEIU will benefit from this health care legislation will make complete sense........EXTREMELY shady!!!!!

Currently there is no check of citizenship when someone goes in for treatment at an emergency room, if the person can't sign up for the taxpayer benefit there is no change in regards to illegal aliens recieving care.

Joe Wilson's Dirty Health-Care Secret

Newsweek

By Adam Weinstein

Poor Joe Wilson. The conservative Republican representative from South Carolina stepped in it Wednesday night when he broke with centuries of decorum by screaming, "You lie!" at President Obama during his health-care speech to a joint session of Congress.

Cut the man some slack. He's passionate! I know this because he told me, in the sole message that blazes across his campaign Web site: JOE WILSON IS PASSIONATE ABOUT STOPPING GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE!

Except that he's not;at least not when it comes to his, and his family's, government-run health care. As a retired Army National Guard colonel, Wilson gets a lot of benefits (one of which, apparently, was not a full appreciation of the customs, traditions, and courtesies that mandate respect for one's commander in chief). And with four sons in the armed services, the entire Wilson brood has enjoyed multiple generations of free military medical coverage, known as TRICARE.

<snip>

To be fair, Wilson has been consistent in his policymaking if not his personal life: according to his last congressional opponent, Wilson voted 11 times against health care for veterans in eight years, even as he voted "aye" for the Iraq War (during the debate on the war vote, he even called one Democrat "viscerally anti-American"─several times). He voted to cut veterans' benefits─not his own─to make room for President George W. Bush's tax cuts. He repeatedly voted for budgets that slashed funding to the Veterans Administration and TRICARE. And perhaps most bizarrely, he refused─repeatedly─to approve Democratic-led initiatives that would have extended TRICARE coverage to all reservists and National Guard members, even though a disproportionate number of them have served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan─and many lost access to their civilian work benefits when they did so.

<snip>

"As a 31-year Army Guard and Reserve veteran, I know the importance of TRICARE," he said in a press release. "The number of individuals who choose to enroll in TRICARE continues to rise because TRICARE is a low cost, comprehensive health plan that is portable and available in some form world-wide." He went on to call TRICARE "world class health care," concluding on a personal note. "I am grateful to have four sons now serving in the military, and I know that their families appreciate the availability of TRICARE," he said.

What does that mean? Nothing─except that Joe Wilson was against government-run health care before he was for it. And now he's against it again. Just not when it comes to his own flesh and blood.

Adam Weinstein, an Iraq veteran, is a freelance journalist. He is uninsured.

The pending bill does specifically exclude illegal aliens from receiving any taxpayer benefits. HOWEVER, it has a glaring loophole in that it does not require proof of citizenship when you receive medical service. So in a sense Joe Wilson was correct.

He was absolutely wrong to interrupt the speech, but he does have a point.

Hmmm. The "Health Care" sector shelled out a whooping $435,296.00 in campaign contributions to Joe Wilson. Yep. Kinda shady.

Technically Obama didn't lie........The only issue, as Pelosi made very clear in a speech earlier this week, is that proof of citizenship will not be necessary to receive medical treatment. So yes, there would be a restriction, but absolutely no way to enforce it. Similar to saying "Were going to make an effort to deport all of the illegals" and then in the next sentence saying "but asking anyone to provide documentation is against the rules"..........Kind of shady--but he didn't lie.........

A must read/see!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis...

I must disagree with SuperDave and agree with Andrew Jackson. I am non-partisan, and I rely on independent sources to form my opinions and conclusions. From what I have read, the pending bill SPECIFICALLY excludes illegal aliens from receiving any taxpayer benefits.

It seems to me that Mr. Wilson objected to being called out for the lies of those opposed to the legislation, and his response was to try to cast aspersion back at the President.

And, to toledid: Not once in my lifetime has any Representative or Senator disrupted ANY President's address to Congress as did Mr. Wilson. No Democrat interrupted Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush, or Bush. Similarly, no Republican inteurupted Johnson, Carter, or Clinton.

People are free to agree or disagree with the President in the business of governance. When the President addresses a joint session of Congress, it is a MUCH different story.

Illegal aliens are not covered in any bill being considered before congress. Just as there are no death panels.

So when the Dems used to call Bush all sorts of names from Hitler to idiot it was o.k. because he was a Republican, but now that someone dares to say it to Obama's face it's "insulting". Pleeeease. For eight long years we had to put up with you liberal media taking every opportunity to insult Bush for any little thing he was "wrong" about according to you and now you can't take this. Well that's too bad, get used to it and grow up. You are the ones in power now (not for long God willing). It seems no one can say one bad thing about the "annointed one". I applaud the Congressmand for having the guts to say what everyone else is thinking. Get used to it, it's only the beginning.

Joe Wilson was correct, in that Mr. Obama was actually lying. Mr. Obama btw, was not "unruffled" as Ms. Parker stated, he was actually surprised and shocked. Mr. Obama is not accustomed to having anyone challenge him so directly.
Now as to whether Joe Wilson did the right thing, that's a judgement call. I can certainly understand his frustration in having to listen to Mr. Obama drone on and on with his litany of propaganda, half-truths, and yes, bold-faced lies. That's why I don't listen too closely to what Mr. Obama says, I rely more on his actions, and the actual content of pending legislation that he supports.