CallitasIseeit, she said had her posts removed because of _______ like you.

DiGriz, I'll say this one last time. I have NEVER said this country was founded on Christianity! It was founded by intellects who based the laws of this land by using Christian PRINCIPLES because they were principles that if applied would stand the test of time. Look around you now and see where our culture has stooped to. This is what happens when PRINCIPLES are compromised. It's happened to many civilizations in the past and it's happening to ours.

Callit....., please honor the male code, Mrs gazettefan might be reading this!!!

If our founding fathers knew how corrupt our nation was going to be today, they would have INSISTED on the combining of church and state.

GF-What happened to your Sweetie Hannah, did she get booted for bad spelling and grammar?

Sorry for having overlooked your post, DiGriz.

werpknarly
Oct 12, 2009 at 12:42 p.m.

Nail on the head, founding fathers knew to well the dangers of mixing politics and religion. even in the early colones one could be put in stocks, fined or whiped for not showing up for church. Better yet, just google "religious war".

prounion
Oct 12, 2009 at 12:53 p.m.

God please bless my sports team, and no one else's.

Great post greatplain. I'll repost the posts you mentioned.

This article is dead on. The first two comments on this commentary page sum it up well. Read American Gospel : God, the founding fathers, and the Making of a Nation by Jon Meacham. Our founding fathers used the language of religion, but most were deists.who believed in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it. Another good book on this topic related to our founding fathers is Founding Faith : Providence, Politics, and the Birth of Religious Freedom in America by Steven Waldman.

I'm hoping it's me.

Right but the church is a she, god is extra male, if the bible is to be taken as any indication.
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The church is infallable so when she helped the nazi party wait a sec - she is infallable - but helped nazis. And what the pope does binds god so god helped nazis?

prounion - Anyhting the Pope says 'as Pope' is the final word - s/he is infallible when speaking 'as Pope' . The pope is the only human that has this power, but only when speaking from the throne 'as Pope'.

prounion - you got it wrong babe - God is male.

Dogma rocks.

1. The Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.
2. By reason of her purpose and the means she uses to effect it the Church is a supernatural spiritual society.
3. The Church is a perfect society.
4. The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world.
5. The secondary object of the Infallibility is truths of the Christian teaching on faith and morals, which are not formally revealed, but which are closely connected with the teaching of Revelation.

Took the morning after pill - so murder, some woman could add.

Yea Mathew 16:18 to 21 - whatever the pope bind on earth its bound in heaven. If the pope says shoot a christian with a crossbow you go to hell then thats how god works it.
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Also came across this gem:
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
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It says all - not most, or some, or the parts that are just for the Levites, or the ceremonial law, it says all. It also says its all god-breathed - not just the parts that make god look like what we would hope he would be, but all scripture is god based.

Isn't it whatever the pope or church decides on earth is what is true in heaven? So if the pope says its a sin - its a sin? I think there is biblical support out there for that, well there is support or condemnation of almost any opinion in the bible. I think its in Peter maybe? I'll look.

I hope they are reading the bible, I am pretty sure that we read the bible more than they do.

Maybe they're using all their time to read the bible. And maybe this time it'll sink in.

Heck yea we have a book to write griz - it is getting hard and hard to find good christians to add material.

I almost forgot - the other problem that drives them off after the follow up questions is that this forum makes it impossible to convey the meaning they need to convey.
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Maybe the paper could write a story about us - something like "Searching for truth on the comment boards, athiests and one diest seek christians to explain the nature of god"

Looks liek they are gone again. I have noticed a pattern, a statement is made, information is presented, follow up questions are asked, then we are somehow the problem or the christian dissapears.
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Wierd thing is though when they ask about evolution, the process tends to break off right after we provide answers, they don't tend to have follow up questions.
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Its almost like they can't dig deep into any issue to understand it.

foolonthehill, apparently DrTalk was swallowed by a whale.

"DrTalk is at the other blog."

SWARM!! SWARM!!

(Just kidding, DrTalk. Welcome back! :-)

He won't be there long.

DrTalk is at the other blog.

http://gazettextra.com/news/2009/nov/23/...

prounion, I think that the baselessness of their beliefs appropriately leaves them speechless -hence the irrelevant words of other people.

The replacements will be here soon.

It was an excellent post GF.
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Actually I think the christians have taken the only logical route they could - try to get the site shut down by the paper by posting randomly. You would think though with the might of god on their side they could at least field a half way decent arguement.

Pardon my presumption of importance but I will repost from the church blog:

DonDiego's post reveals that the ministry in the above story is operating in contradiction to scripture -scripture being the "inspired word of god."

The positive to be taken from this is that the stamp of humanity that accounts for the above ministry mirrors that religion and the concept of god and therefore scripture are human creations.

Boy! The writing on this "Soap" has gone down hill.

RAmen

An infinite number of monkeys with typewriters will eventually have something to say about Twinkie turds.

Griz human testimony is the best form of evidence, did anyone see the extrusion of the twinkie? If so I have faith that it happened.
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One day after all of the men who landed on the moon have died I will still believe we landed on the moon because we have documented human testimony, same thing with the twinkie incident. If you can document it with human testmony it really happened. And again no one can prove that it did not happen, so it did.

I must say that it is impossible to prove that no one has ever pooped an intact twinkie.

"Well, let's say this Twinkie represents the normal amount of psycho-kinetic energy in the New York area. According to this morning's sample, it would be a Twinkie...35 feet long, weighing approximately 600 pounds."
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"That's a big Twinkie."

I once outran a bear because it kept slipping on the twinkies I was leaving behind.

(Still laughing about Barry Manilow.)

10. Sometime between February and November, mysteriously tangles Christmas lights that have been neatly coiled and stored.

Callsit - I buy your explanation of the twinkee, but what actually initiates the hurricane - that could still be god couldn't it? A couple of pastors I think even said Katrina was due to god being angry, maybe he started that crucial initial blast of hot air?

Good point, DiGriz. Did Jesus have cheerleaders when he was tortured and crucified? No!!! All the christians cheered for the Romans just like when the people of Metropolis turn against Superman when he's having a hard time.

The History of The Twinkie

1933 - Twinkies were introduced by The Continental Baking Company in Indianapolis, which also made "Wonder Bread" and had a snack line your probably familiar with called Hostess. One of their bakers named James A. Dewar got the idea for the "Twinkie" while he delivered one of their products, a cream filled strawberry shortcake. The machines to make these sat idle when the strawberry season was over so he came up with an idea to use them to make a snack cake filled with a banana filling, and only charge a nickel for a package of 2. It was good idea as money was tight for people during the great depression.

Dewar came up with this name when driving by a billboard that had an ad for shoes from the "Twinkle Toe Shoe Company". He shortened the name to ....Twinkies....

1940's

Just like the song went "Yes We Have No Banana's " popular during the WWII because bananas were rationed, Hostess had to come up with a different filling.

They switched to vanilla creme and it was popular so they never changed back.

1950

The Twinkie rose to popularity in the '50's in great part due to Hostess sponsoring the Howdy Doody show, featuring the twinkie.

During the 60's when there were huge fears of a nuclear attack, Many bomb shelters were built. Twinkees were one of the most popular items to have because it was said that they "stay fresh forever".

It has become an American Icon, even president Clinton put one in a time capsule.

They remain as Hostess best selling snack cake producing half a billion a year!

7. Has kept Barry Manilow from being beaten to a pulp.

Put the whip cream in Twinkies.

The two essential ingredients in every hurricane are warm water and moist warm air. That’s why hurricanes begin in the tropics.
Most Atlantic hurricanes start to take shape when thunderstorms along the west coast of Africa drift out over warm ocean waters that are at least 80 degrees Fahrenheit (27 degrees Celsius), where they encounter converging winds from around the equator.

Warm Air, Warm Water Make Conditions Right for Hurricanes
Hurricanes start when warm, moist air from the ocean surface begins to rise rapidly, where it encounters cooler air that causes the warm water vapor to condense and to form storm clouds and drops of rain. The condensation also releases latent heat, which warms the cool air above, causing it to rise and make way for more warm humid air from the ocean below.

As this cycle continues, more warm moist air is drawn into the developing storm and more heat is transferred from the surface of the ocean to the atmosphere. This continuing heat exchange creates a wind pattern that spirals around a relatively calm center, or eye, like water swirling down a drain.

Converging Winds Create Hurricanes
Converging winds near the surface of the water collide, pushing more water vapor upward, increasing the circulation of warm air, and accelerating the speed of the wind. At the same time, strong winds blowing steadily at higher altitudes pull the rising warm air away from the storm’s center and send it swirling into the hurricane’s classic cyclone pattern.

High-pressure air at high altitudes, usually above 30,000 feet (9,000 meters), also pull heat away from the storm’s center and cool the rising air. As high-pressure air is drawn into the low-pressure center of the storm, the speed of the wind continues to increase.

As the storm builds from thunderstorm to hurricane, it passes through three distinct stages based on wind speed.

Aboutenvironment.com

5. Eradicated all Earthly evidence of unicorns.

I was thinking along the lines of the god of the gaps mentality. That god lies in the things we don't understand, like currently he created the big bang, somehow seeded the Earth with the building blocks for Evolution, ect.
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What if he was also a god of the gaps in terms of intervention into this world. We have clearly made the point that there is no evidence of god's influence on earth but maybe there are some gaps where god is hiding - for instance:
1. Missing Children - many are never found - maybe they were raptured?
2. JFK - maybe god guided the magic bullet?
3. The missing Nixon tapes, maybe god did it?
4. We don't understand exactly how hurricanes start - could be god - that would mix in well with the god's wrath thing too.

Earthworms or night crawlers are so familiar that little description is needed. Although there are many species which range from 2.5 to 15 cm or more in length when fully grown, all earthworms have the typical earthworm appearance. They are composed of many similar looking segments with a glandular organ, called the clitellum, near the middle of the body.
Distribution -- Earthworms occur throughout the United States in almost any moist soil that is loose enough to burrow through and with sufficient organic matter on which to feed. They seek levels in the soil that best suit their needs. As soil dries out they move deeper, but when the soil becomes water-logged, earthworms emerge from the soil to escape drowning. Some species emerge from the soil on moist evenings and feed on the surface near or partly in their burrows.
Damage -- Earthworms do not feed on living plants and generally are considered beneficial for their tilling of the soil. However, earthworm tilling in newly seeded lawns may kill some of the grass seedlings. In established lawns the worms provide a food source for moles whose burrowing damages lawns (see moles). Earthworms that surface leave castings of soil that blemish golf green surfaces. Such castings may harden in lawns during dry weather making the lawn lumpy and crunchy. Walking on such heavily infested lawns is like walking across a field of ping pong balls.
Life History -- The life history of earthworms is peculiar. Not only are they hermaphroditic, they are also homosexual. Although the worms are capable of functioning both as males and as females, only one sex is functional at a time. At the time of mating, both individuals of a pair are males, and they exchange sperm. At a later time the worm becomes a female containing mature eggs. The clitellum then swells into a girdle and secretes a nutritive liquid band. By muscular action this band of nutritive material is pushed slowly forward on the body. As it passes over the female opening, it picks up the eggs and continues to migrate forward to the place where the sperm from the other worm is stored. Sperm is added to the band and the band continues migrating forward until it is sloughed off over the head-end of the worm. The band immediately becomes a closed cocoon which gradually hardens. It is within the cocoon that the sperm finally unite with the eggs. On hatching, the young earthworms feed for a time on the contents of the cocoon before emerging as tiny replicas of their parents. In favorable environments such as those maintained by commercial earthworm growers, the cycle is repeated about once a month.

Yes, foolonthehill, our work is not done here. But we are not alone. We, like them, are everywhere. Prepare for the next wave.

We're attempting to empty the ocean with a teaspoon, GFan. Just click on that "Good News" ad below, if/when you see it.

foolonthehill, I insist that what's going on here is a strong measure of victory on our part.

I first got involved in blogging on religious stories because I saw they were being used for Sunday school and proselytizing in general.

Daily fun facts are a vast improvement; and are clear signs of planted seeds.

In addition to being a violation of copyright law, quoting without attribution is a good indicator of one's education, character or both.

A typical characteristic of schizophrenics, GFan. Also common in those with Borderline Personality Disorder when they become highly agitated and emotional.

Alaska is fortunate to have some of the best wing shooting in all of North America, and we at Alaska Wildfowl Adventures are privileged to be able to assist you in experiencing this state’s great bounty!
Here in Alaska we have the largest populations of some of the most unique and most highly sought after trophy birds, surrounded by some of the most beautiful scenery!
Hunt for species such as Pacific Eider, Eurasian Wigeon and Aleutian Greenwing Teal in the shadows of majestic dormant volcanoes on the Aleutian chain. Or pursue Harlequin, Scoter and Barrow's Goldeneye in the beautiful glacial fjords of south-central Alaska. Whatever species you’re targeting, you’re assured a scene that’ll forever be etched in your memory.
At Alaska Wildfowl Adventures, we are Alaska's Premier Wildfowl Guide Service specializing in high quality, safe hunts with a low guide to client ratio. We strive to provide an enjoyable and unique hunting experience. Whether we’re in layout blinds on a glacial moraine pursuing Dusky Canada Geese, or loaded up into layout boats stealthily hunting Harlequin, you’re guaranteed an exciting hunt! Hunt with us on the water and bag upwards of sixteen species of ducks and geese, or join us on an upland hunt to nab up to three species of ptarmigan. Perhaps a cast & blast is more your style? We have many options to choose from!
Alaska duck hunting is something every waterfowl hunter needs to experience at lease once in their lifetime.

A+

Circumstantiality:

When the train of thought and speech is often derailed by unrelated digressions, based on chaotic associations. In extreme cases considered to be a communication disorder.

The polar bear (Ursus maritimus) is a bear native largely within the Arctic circle encompassing the Arctic Ocean, its surrounding seas and surrounding land masses. It is the world's largest carnivore species found on land. It is also the largest bear, together with the omnivore Kodiak bear which is approximately the same size.[3] An adult male weighs around 350–680 kg (770–1,500 lb),[4] while an adult female is about half that size. Although it is closely related to the brown bear, it has evolved to occupy a narrow ecological niche, with many body characteristics adapted for cold temperatures, for moving across snow, ice, and open water, and for hunting the seals which make up most of its diet.[5] Although most polar bears are born on land, it spends most of its time at sea, hence its name meaning "maritime bear", and can hunt consistently only from sea ice, spending much of the year on the frozen sea.

The polar bear is classified as a vulnerable species, with 5 of the 19 polar bear subpopulations in decline.[6][7] For decades, unrestricted hunting raised international concern for the future of the species; populations have rebounded after controls and quotas began to take effect. For thousands of years, the polar bear has been a key figure in the material, spiritual, and cultural life of Arctic indigenous peoples, and the hunting of polar bears remains important in their cultures.

The IUCN now lists global warming as the most significant threat to the polar bear, primarily because the melting of its sea ice habitat reduces its ability to find sufficient food. The IUCN states, "If climatic trends continue polar bears may become extirpated from most of their range within 100 years."[1] On May 14, 2008, the United States Department of the Interior listed the polar bear as a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act.

FLIGHT SCHOOL REPORT CARD

Take-off: Absent

Mid-flight: A-

Landing: Absent

The Wright Brothers
By the first decade of the twentieth century, interest and work in the field of flight had reached a fever pitch. As highly publicized efforts by engineers and scientists to develop an airplane capable of carrying a person were underway in Europe and America, two brothers from Dayton, Ohio, were quietly, doggedly, and methodically teaching themselves everything there was to know about flying, and inventing all the rest as the need arose. What exactly drove the Wright brothers to embark on the odyssey that led them to Kitty Hawk is not at all clear, and even definitive biographies like Tom Crouch’s The Bishop’s Boys have trouble penetrating those two inscrutable minds. And that’s just the way they would have wanted it.

Wilbur was born in 1867, and Orville four years later the third and sixth of seven children born to Milton and Susan Koerner Wright. Milton was a minister in the United Brethren Church, an evangelical Protestant denomination, and the family moved frequently until Milton was named a bishop in the church and the family settled in Dayton, Ohio. In childhood and throughout their lives, Orville and Wilbur were constant companions (in ‘Wilbur's words, the brothers “lived together, played together; worked together, and, in fact, thought together”) and displayed many of the Yankee characteristics of their parents and forebears: an inner-directed spartan strength and a clear-eyed, determined outlook on the world and on life. Neither brother finished high school. though they were both insatiable readers and tinkerers. The Wright brothers tried their hand at several enterprises, including publishing newspapers and running a printing shop, hut without success.

Wilbur's drawings of the 1899 Kite, the Wright brothers' first aeronautical experiment

In 1892, America was in the midst of a bicycle craze and the brothers established a bicycle shop in Dayton that proved financially successful. They manufactured some bicycles under their own brand name, including one they called the Flyer. During 1896, the Wrights read about the death of Otto Lilienthal and they became intensely interested in the question of flight. They collected all existing information on flight, writing to Octave Chanute and Samuel Langley at the Smithsonian, beginning an active correspondence with these men that was to last for years. Chanute (who regarded himself as a kind of international clearinghouse of information about flight) was particularly generous.

The Wrights designed a glider, strongly influenced by Chanute’s design, and decided that their aircraft would not be as difficult to fly as Lilienthal’s glider, but neither were they going to be passive passengers on a an inherently stable aircraft. They devised a method to control an aircraft in flight that involved twisting a Chanute design in a technique called “wing warping.”

FLIGHT SCHOOL REPORT CARD

Take-off: Absent

Mid-flight: A+

Landing: Absent

Current research theories show that intelligence is non-local and not bound to the brain. Sometimes nature offers insight into a particular subject by presenting a baffling enigma and contradictory example. Intelligence's contradictory enigma is the idiot-savant.

The word idiot usually refers to a simpleton, in contrast to the word "savant" in French that means "learned one." Idiot savants are a subgroup of a class of people called idiots with an IQ of about 25.

Idiot savants are a group of humans that are incapable of learning, writing or reading, yet they have unlimited access to specific, accurate knowledge in the fields of mathematics, music, and other precise areas. Now the irony of an idiot-savant is that this group of individuals does not acquire knowledge by learning as the average human does. They mysteriously 'know' explicit, exact, correct information. One may wonder: "How do idiots savants know certain information or possess certain skills?" By whatever means they obtain this information, they undermine current definitions about intelligence. Does their knowledge show that a source of intelligence exists? Is it possible to tap into this source and not know of its existence?

Dustin Hoffman made idiot-savants famous in the Hollywood movie "Rain Man." He played the role of a mathematical genius able to keep track of cards at the casino, yet unable to go to the bathroom alone or to make simple decisions about what clothes to wear or foods to eat. Modern science cannot explain this phenomenon.

Yes. Blowing with the strength of a hurricane at 118+ miles/hour, the Jet Stream blasts the rocky, icy summit of Everest nearly all year long. The Jet Stream is a constant wind force at 4 - 6 miles above the earth. Observers can tell when the Jet Stream is blowing on the summit of Everest from the long while stream of ice crystals extending out from the tip of the mountain. Those wishing to actually stand on the summit have to choose their moment carefully: the mountain is most inviting in early May, when the Jet Stream is pushed northward over Tibet by the arrival of the monsoon. There is also a window of opportunity in the Fall when the Jet Stream is again pushed northward.
Is the air very thin on Everest?
As the altitude increases, the oxygen content of the air decreases dramatically. At 9,800 feet, for example, there's about 2/3 of the oxygen in the air than at sea level. At 20,000 ft, there is roughly half the oxygen content in the air. At 29,035ft, the summit of Everest, there is only a third of the oxygen in the air.
How does your body get used to the altitude?
Mountaineers climbing Everest establish a camp at the base of the mountain, and four higher camps before reaching the summit. For the next 30 days or so, they will move up, then down again, allowing their bodies to get used to the reduced oxygen content of the air. This process is called acclimatization.

To each his own I suppose. They removed my video of the onetrue church folks debating with the Westboro bapist christians. Its too bad - they debated just like the folks on this site used to, they didn't try the Kleej tactic though, that one is new.
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Kleej is there any god related topic you want to talk about? Maybe you would care to poke holes in evolutionary theory?

From National Public Radio to pierced teenagers in the yarn store, everyone knows that knitting is suddenly cool. It's the "new yoga," says one magazine article; it's part of a post-Sept. 11 trend toward cocooning, say psychologists.
In the basement of Harvard's Loeb House, seven women surrounded by plump skeins of yarn and half-finished sweaters shake their heads in disbelief. "I'm amazed to find myself part of something that's hot," says Diana Stewart, who recently returned to knitting after a 60-year hiatus.
Stewart, former co-master of Lowell House, and her fellow knitters are members of Harvard Neighbors' newly formed knitting group. While no one admits that they were drawn to the group by knitting's newfound hipness, they're not surprised that the centuries-old craft is gaining in popularity.
"Other people take Prozac, then there are those of us who just knit," says Jennifer Kotilaine, associate secretary to the University and leader of the knitting group. Between bites of her lunch, Kotilaine surveys a bear-sized pullover she's knitting for her husband. He's so tall, she says, that she needs to purchase more heathery gray wool to lengthen the sweater's arms. At the other end of the spectrum, Lillian DeBacker and Carolina Carbó show off small yellow squares; both are new knitters practicing their stitches before graduating to a real project. Ina Luch pieces together a tiny cardigan she knit from yarn scraps donated to the group; in turn, she plans to give the sweater away, possibly to a local children's hospital.
From teaching newcomers to sharing yarn and swapping patterns, a spirit of generosity runs through knitters. The group plans to take on a charitable project - perhaps knitting newborn hats for a hospital - once all members master the basics of knit and purl.

From National Public Radio to pierced teenagers in the yarn store, everyone knows that knitting is suddenly cool. It's the "new yoga," says one magazine article; it's part of a post-Sept. 11 trend toward cocooning, say psychologists.
In the basement of Harvard's Loeb House, seven women surrounded by plump skeins of yarn and half-finished sweaters shake their heads in disbelief. "I'm amazed to find myself part of something that's hot," says Diana Stewart, who recently returned to knitting after a 60-year hiatus.
Stewart, former co-master of Lowell House, and her fellow knitters are members of Harvard Neighbors' newly formed knitting group. While no one admits that they were drawn to the group by knitting's newfound hipness, they're not surprised that the centuries-old craft is gaining in popularity.
"Other people take Prozac, then there are those of us who just knit," says Jennifer Kotilaine, associate secretary to the University and leader of the knitting group. Between bites of her lunch, Kotilaine surveys a bear-sized pullover she's knitting for her husband. He's so tall, she says, that she needs to purchase more heathery gray wool to lengthen the sweater's arms.
At the other end of the spectrum, Lillian DeBacker and Carolina Carbó show off small yellow squares; both are new knitters practicing their stitches before graduating to a real project. Ina Luch pieces together a tiny cardigan she knit from yarn scraps donated to the group; in turn, she plans to give the sweater away, possibly to a local children's hospital.
From teaching newcomers to sharing yarn and swapping patterns, a spirit of generosity runs through knitters. The group plans to take on a charitable project - perhaps knitting newborn hats for a hospital - once all members master the basics of knit and purl.

Unless, of course, if the person being prayed for is already dead, in which case there are no effects whatsoever.

Studies have shown that prayer is bad for the person being prayed for.

The Westboro Baptist church people would be much tougher to debate in regards to the existance of their god. Its fairly easy as we have seen on this site to look at the world and make the arguement that there is no all loving, all powerfull god. They remove the all loving part, using many of the same verses we have posted here. Biblically their explanation that god hates us make sense. It also meshes better with the facts of the world that thousands fo young children die each daydue to lack of drinking water. Of course it just means that they have created an imaginary friend that is more in keeping with scripture and reality. The video shows another group that is also the one true religion, debating the WBC, which believes it is the one true religion, if either of them is right - there will only be about 100 people on the face of the planet currently that make it to heaven. They don't seem shy about backing up their views with scripture though, won't see any random quoting from those guys.

The Battle of the Bulge started on December 16th 1944. Hitler had convinced himself that the alliance between Britain, France and America in the western sector of Europe was not strong and that a major attack and defeat would break up the alliance. Therefore, he ordered a massive attack against what were primarily American forces. The attack is strictly known as the Ardennes Offensive but because the initial attack by the Germans created a bulge in the Allied front line, it has become more commonly known as the Battle of the Bulge.
Hitler’s plan was to launch a massive attack using three armies on the Allies which would, in his mind, destabilise their accord and also take the huge port of Antwerp through which a great deal of supplies was reaching the Allies.

Hitler believed that his forces would be able to surround and cut off Canada’s First Army, America’s First and Ninth Armies and Britain’s Second Army. On paper, it was a seemingly absurd plan – especially as Germany had been in retreat since D-Day, her military was depleted of supplies and was facing the awesome might of the Allies. However, Hitler, as commander-in-chief of the military, decreed that the attack should take place.
The battle started with a two hour bombardment of the Allies lines that was followed by a huge armoured attack with the majority of the German armoured might based at the Schnee Eifel. The Germans experienced great success to start with.

Although it is true that God loves both the wicked and the righteous (Matthew 5:43-45; John 3:16), it is also true that before the world was created, God chose to love only a few people and destine them to eternal life in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:13-14; Romans 9:6-23; Ephesians 1:4). He chose to hate the rest of mankind and destine them to hell for eternity (Matthew 7:13-14; Romans 9:6-23). This choice was not based on any action on the part of those whom God chose (Romans 9:11, 16, 18), but rather it was based on God's own good pleasure and purpose (Ephesians 1:4-5). It was not based on works (Romans 9:11, 20-23; Ephesians 1:5; Philippians 2:13; Psalm 115:3).

http://www.atruechurch.info/statement.ht...

Actually this makes sense. Congrats Max, Bill, Talk, Bibledude, ect, you guys won the cosmic lottery.

Incidentally, that is the major paradoxical flaw in the Golden Rule: Not everyone likes hearing the truth. (Or so I have been frequently reminded.) It doesn't work very well between sadomasochists either.

The Golden Rule, DiGriz... yeah, re-read thesaint's posts and those feelings should subside. For future reference, if I ever sound like that, I shall expect and want you to do unto me with even greater severity and relentlessness! LOL

Kleej, learn how to read, I didn't even see that post. So quit your sobbing.

It was you who cracked at the very beginning of your posing here. Read your bible. Get capable of discussing why Mark and Luke write contradictory stories about Jesus' torture and death.

gazettefan, why have my youtube link removed? What's wrong, the heat getting to you?! You gotta be kidding me! Let me get you a tissue!

Bingo, GFan.

Again it is a christian who can't conform to the simple rules of civility stated at the bottom of this page. It's never a non-believer.

I didn't see it. I wonder if it was another comment that suggests Kleej and I know each other.

"I watched that video with wonder and amazement"
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I can't blame you. Takes one's breath away, doesn't it?

Says a lot about you that you admittedly believe this has anything to do with the "last word."
I'm pretty sure gentlemen don't view women as an insult, maxdetail. I'm also pretty sure gentlemen take personal responsibility, and have the courage to live according to their stated convictions.
What happened to letting us jabber amongst ourselves? I thought you were going to be kind of busy. Or was that just more blown smoke?

"It betrays an instability of character in you that begs to have its breaking-point tested. And I intend to push."

Yep, that's just what Dave Garver thought in "Play Misty for Me".

InconvenientTRUTH, holy cats girl! You have got a mouth on you. I think I AM starting to like you after all. You've got MY number sweetheart. Now, if you're half the man I think you are, you're going to try to get the last word here. Being a gentleman, I'll let you it.

DiGriz, big thumbs up on the video. Now THAT tune is going to be stuck in my head all day...and I was so much enjoying the emptiness in there.

"Certainly a few athiests and a deist can't stump a dude with god on his side.......right?"
.
One would guess. The power of Christ apparently does not compel maxdetail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJQVlVHsF...

ICT - its odd about Max isn't it. I encountered the same pattern. I hit him with some facts, bible quotes and follow up questions and all of a sudden I was accused of being angry and accelerating our relationship to a combative level, looks like history does repeat itself - when Max is concerned. Odd thing is that even with god on his side, questions still have to be dodged. Maybe if he took that crystal clear guidance from god that keej mentioned earlier he would not need to dodge the tough questions. Certainly a few athiests and a deist can't stump a dude with god on his side.......right?

Generally speaking, though, when we think of frogs, we generally picture what are called "True Frogs"....
members of the family Ranidae, containing more than 400 species.
These frogs have the characteristics of:

two bulging eyes
strong, long, webbed hind feet that are adapted for leaping and swimming
smooth or slimy skin (generally, frogs tend to like moister environments)
Frogs tend to lay eggs in clusters.
Frogs from this family can be found on every continent except Antarctica. They are referred to as the "true frogs" because of their generalized body form and life history: the so-called generic frog.
Members of this family include the bullfrog, common frog, green frog, leopard frog, marsh frog, pickerel frog, and wood frog.

"You are a perfect example of raw, naked evil and rage. I'm steering clear of you. You're no fun at all."
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"Perfect"? Flattery will get you nowhere...
I submit that you don't like me (boo-hoo) as I'm a bit more than you can handle. I take your assertions and turn them on themselves. I ask questions that cut right to your dishonest heart. I expose you as the fraud whose charade of ideology, which helps you control life lived in a uncontrollable reality, is so depended upon that you no longer even recognize the hypocrite that lives under the surface when it rears its head. It betrays an instability of character in you that begs to have its breaking-point tested. And I intend to push.

"Reminds me of Elinor in 'Play Misty For Me'."
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Or Farley's bus driver in Billy Madison (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/audio/play/59...).

All mocking and joking aside inconvenienttruth:
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You are a perfect example of raw, naked evil and rage. I'm steering clear of you. You're no fun at all.
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Prounion, you know those two she-bears you keep bringing up that killed all those kids? I think I found one of 'em.

"InconvenientTRUTH, sorry about the 'tooth', my spellchecker should have caught that."
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Yes, your "spellchecker." What spellchecker are you using, specifically? You do realize you've also inserted "tooth" into my full username, written as "inconvenienttooth", right? Both have been used repeatedly by you. But obviously it's the fault of your spellchecker...just like it's Dr Dutton's fault that your daughter and her consenting guardian (your aversion to personal responsibility has prevented you from admitting if this was you or another person) are "baby murderers."
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"Yes, of course I was joking AND mocking."
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So you admit your questioning of when you've ever mocked was frivolous, bordering on dishonest?
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"You were so angry with me right out of the box yesterday"
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An assumption. Basis?
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"that you kind of accelerated our relationship..."
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It takes two to tango.
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"I wanted to see if you have any sense of humor..."
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Oh, I find your posts to be very humorous, and writing these posts is enjoyable for me. I'm not sure where you're under the impression that I'm angry or stressed. More of your baseless assumptions, I guess.

Thanks, GFan but it is becoming increasingly disturbing in here.

ICT, that bizarre "in one line" phenomenon is a common theme. Think: BPD in Guinness World Book proportions. Reminds me of Elinor in "Play Misty For Me".

DiGriz, you shouldn't use thesaint as an example of the best we have to offer as an apologete.
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He's a zealous young man, a work in progress whose passion MIGHT have gotten out ahead of his knowledge a tad.
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You wouldn't like it if I called up gazettefan as the best you atheists (and deist!) have to offer would you?
Of course not, that would be mean of me.

InconvenientTRUTH, sorry about the 'tooth', my spellchecker should have caught that.
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Yes, of course I was joking AND mocking. You were so angry with me right out of the box yesterday that you kind of accelerated our relationship from civil, through cordial, barely tollerating, angry to name calling and finally mocking.
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I wanted to see if you have any sense of humor or if you are always in that rabid, sarcastic fight mode. You've got to ease up a bit, that's not good for your heart. Do you have an outlet like exercise or yoga? A hobby? You are one of the most intense people I've seen on here. I know it's none of my business but I'm concerned about you.

"Tooth, when have I ever mocked?"
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Is this a serious question? I mean, I'm really not sure if you're THAT skillfully stupid as to contradict yourself in one sentence (even using less than seven words). It's a rare feat I enjoy encountering; pointing out, even more so.
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I also question your seriousness, maxdetail, as my mention of your mocking came in response to this statement by you: "I'll keep stopping by to mock you though."
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At least I know you're not joking when you continue your 'females-as-insult' line of reasoning here that you started with your twisted, out of context Lewis quote.

foolonthehill, I think we are making a heroic effort to hold it together. Though I must admit that our skills have become so finely honed here that we are sending someone like wcm..... packing right-away; he or she won't be back -planted seed. We have become a finely tuned truth machine here.

People like joejack, thesaint, and maxdetail, serve our purpose by keeping this blog on the board. Hang your coat up, you are needed.

:~)

Perhaps, GFan. However, these comments are becoming overwhelmed with irrational chaos. If the signal to noise trend continues then, eventually, the only thing remaining will be the dysfunctional banter and rants of psychos. That's what destroyed unmoderated Usenet groups. By the way, where did I hang my coat?

Kleej, what does Orrin Woodward (the source of your quote [you shouldn't quote without attribution]) say about the judeo-chiristian-islamic principal of a man giving up his daughter for gang rape for the benefit of some other guy?

I guess the Chinese have strong values.

"At its roots, economics is a metaphysical rather than a mathematical science, in which intangible spiritual values and attitudes are at least as important as physical assets and morale more important than money supply. Products, after all, are the assembly of qualities, and their value derives directly from the innate character and ideals of those who create them and the workmanship of those who produce them. Things are in their final analysis, the expression of thoughts. Quality products derive from quality thoughts, shoddy products from shoddy thoughts. Plainly, then, a national economy, like an individual business or a specific product, is the sum of the spiritual and mental qualities of its people, and its output of value will be only as strong as the values of society"

foolonthehill, I am certain that the three wise men are grappling with planted seeds.

We certainly learn here of the hellish anguish that foments beneath the christian persona.

Kleej, what's your point? Are you extolling the law abiding virtues of the German christians who put the Jews in the ovens?

Kleej if the logic of your post were correct - you are stating that if you are not a christian you don't have a conscience?

Kleej I assume that even the worse christian believer would have more guidance from god as far as how to live their life than athiests do, correct? Then why is the divorce rate higher among christians? Again I ask for a behavioral trait where statistically the christian population is more "moral" than the rest fo the populations.

It's true, it's all been said so now I just come for the cheap entertainment. AND LOOK! You have a woman's touch now, as Inconvenienttooth has joined your herd! This is exciting. She was really ripping me over baby killing. Her profile is perfect for your gang.
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Tooth, when have I ever mocked?
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Hopefully her Zyprexa came in and she'll find a piddling of politeness.
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I'm going to be kind of busy today but you guys (and gal) please jabber amongst yourselves. Love ya.

GFan: it's only a guess but I'd say our three wise men feel some combination of having already expressed all they need to express; being tired of pointy poking sticks and; having better things to do with their time. Although, I wouldn't entirely underestimate a certain sense of embarrassment by association.

Goooooo Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe Misinterpreters!

Why on Earth would any man or woman that is called a Christian pull their automobile up to a red traffic light and, although the sign clearly says "NO TURN ON RED," proceed to blatantly defy that law and make a turn on red anyway?
It is because they have no respect for God.
As it is written, "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake" (1 Pet. 2:13).
Traffic laws are ordinances that have been put into effect by man. And as long as those ordinances in no way contradict the moral and ethical guidelines of Scripture, God fully expects His people to submit to every ordinance of man.

What happens, though, if a Christian, for whatever reason, continues to break the laws of the land in spite of this biblical injunction? We see a clue in the epistle to the Romans, where the apostle says, "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake" (Rom. 13:5).

Think about that for a moment: the apostle says it is imperative that you be obedient to the laws of the land, not only for wrath but for the sake of your conscience. What does he mean by this?

By "wrath," Paul means you need to obey the laws of the land because of the wrath of law enforcement that will come down upon you if and when you get caught breaking these laws. That is why he said "But if thou do evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" (Rom. 13:4).

By "conscience sake," Paul means you need to obey the laws of the land because, even though you may be coy enough, at times, to break these laws without being caught by the authorities, you will nevertheless still damage your conscience.

What is so frightening about damaging your conscience? It is because your conscience is your moral compass, the means whereby God keeps your life on the road of moral excellence.

What an antennae is to a radio your conscience is to your spirit. And just as a radio with a damaged antennae cannot pick up radio waves out of the air, neither can a damaged conscience pick up the voice of God out of Heaven.

This explains why you see so many Christians who cannot distinguish the voice of God from their own thoughts and emotions. It is because they have had "their conscience seared with a hot iron" (1 Tim. 4:2).

Jesus said, "for without Me, ye can do nothing" (Jn. 15:5). What did He mean by this? He meant that you cannot get very far in life without divine guidance.

Indeed, in a world fraught with violence, deception and confusion, it is imperative that you be able to receive crystal clear guidance from God in order to steer clear of these things. But and if your conscience has been damaged, you will never be able to "hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left" (Isa. 30:21).

Yes, foolonthehill, those were the good ol' days. Does anyone know where the three wise men are?

GFan: I would add "palpable psychopathology" to your analysis. Like a weed, it seems to thrive in the void left by Billnewbie, DrTalk and Bibledude.

"He is your god - stand up for him man."
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That's the inherent problem with faith; it can't be defended logically, because it's a belief in something that can't be proven (otherwise you wouldn't need faith, you'd have proof). It's merely personally maintained. maxdetail has left in order to nurse it, possibly along with his pride.

"I don't come here to argue with guys anymore, you're just not serious enough. I'll keep stopping by to mock you though."
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I guess we should stick to fallacious mocking, like you, in order for you to take us seriously, huh?
Your retreat (not without parting shots, of course...get 'em in before turning tail) speaks more of you than any comment you might post could.

Dude - you could at least try to use the bible to defend your theory - or you could try to rip apart ours? How come everytime you state a theory and we come back with some logic you flee? He is your god - stand up for him man.

maxdetail, anyone (even many of your fellow believers) can see that you're incapable of saying anything that wouldn't be a source of embarrassment for yourself. Even you have an inkling of this, and this explains your empty-headed, ignorant posts which of course hides nothing.

Muslim lady cheerleaders! That's a good one DiGriz. Post a picture. I remember those pictures of Muslim women in the soccer stadium. They weren't cheering the Taliban were they. That's why you're there isn't it. If Christians are so much like the Taliban then you had better hurry home before football is replaced with the stoning of women. I love you DiGriz but you ARE a chucklehead.

I don't come here to argue with guys anymore, you're just not serious enough. I'll keep stopping by to mock you though. The next time your mitochondria has another spasm, I'll try and comment on it.

"Anyway, nothing created everything. I can't explain it but it doesn't mean it didn't happen."
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Funny that, in your appeal to ridicule regarding the Big Bang (whether out of spite or just plain ignorance of the theory), you've instead related the logically unexplainable Christian fable of the creation of the Universe, as gazettefan has pointed out.
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Although, his line of questioning doesn't ask how God (regardless of how he came to be or what was before him) created the Universe himself. According to the millennia old dogmatic story in the Bible, he just poofed existence into being out of nothing in six days, and it was good. The end. This is in stark contrast to an emerging comprehensive scientific theory based on decades of research and testing.

maxdetail, the claim is not that something came from nothing. There's no claim that the explosive energy of the big bang came from nothing. Because our universe is expanding, it is reasonable to consider the possibility that it could contract. Therefore this expansion and contraction is likely to be eternal.

Apply your something from nothing conundrum to god. Where did god come from. Or, what came before god. If your claim is that god always existed, why can't the energy and matter in question be something that always existed?

----

DiGriz, I had my previous post written but got a phone call before I actually posted it.

wcm...., three sentences from your recent post are quoted below:
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"Do people suffer in this world…Yes. Do children die in this world for what we think are for no reason…Yes. The Bible clearly explains these issues."
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I've read and studied the bible. The bible does not clearly resolve the issue of why innocent people suffer. And it's no accident that when you mentioned the issue in your post, you drew a blank. If you believe the issue is clearly dealt with in the bible, then state, in your words, how it manages to do so.

Again, how did you come to the conclusion that god favored you over all the innocent people who suffered and died during the few moments it took for you to write your post?

Max - how do you explain the fossil record moving from no life, to simple life to ever increasing complexity as one moves up the strata of rock. Planet wide you find layer over layer growing in complexity as one moves up the timeline - millions/billions of fossils all consistantly telling the same tale.
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You eye example is no longer envogue even among the christians, the explanation for that one is easy. Dawkins knocked that one out of the park in the Blind Watchmaker, but took it further and discussed things like how radar evolved in the bat, ect. You might want to pick up a copy.
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The mitochondrial mutation rate also matches the fossil record, meaning that when you compare the genome of different species, and compare the dates of the fossile record it is consitant with the rate of mitochondrial mutation.
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wcm4life, Nothing created everything! Surely you can see the logic in that. You see, nothing created something, and then something accidentally got more complex. That thing accidentally grew an eyeball. Then through much trial and error, that one-eyed thing.... I'm sorry, I'm not sure how the eye ball came about. Let's go back. Here's how matter created information. Dang, this is harder than I thought. Anyway, nothing created everything. I can't explain it but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

So what you’re telling me is that because there is no direct or indirect evidence that I shouldn’t believe in God? What evidence do you have that there is not a God? Do you believe by some chance due to some unforeseen event that happened so long ago is where we came from that no one can explain? Hmmm…I have my Bible and yes as hard as it is to understand I have my Faith. That is all I need. I don’t need to quote scripture…it is written for everyone to read. The Bible lays it out pretty clear for those who are interested to read. Do people suffer in this world…Yes. Do children die in this world for what we think are for no reason…Yes. The Bible clearly explains these issues. If you have any knowledge what so ever of God, then the seed has been planted to grow inside of you if you let it. It is your choice to grow that seed or to let it sit dormant. I have chosen to grow that seed based upon my belief of what the Bible says and its explanations. Please quit chastising the Christians of this world for what they believe. It is our right as well as yours not to believe. If a group of High School Cheerleaders or who ever wants to publicly praise God then they should be allowed to. It is no different than those who want to publicly make it known that they don’t believe in God.

I don't believe in destiny
Or the guiding hand of fate
I don't believe in forever
Or love as a mystical state
I don't believe in the stars or the planets
Or angels watching from above
But I believe there's a ghost of a chance we can find someone to love
And make it last.

I don't believe in the stars or the planets,
Or angels watching from above;

But I believe you can find someone to love and make it last....................

Faith is cold as ice, why are little ones born only to suffer?

For the want of immunity or a bowl of rice?

wcm....., there has never been any indirect or direct evidence of a supernatural event. Yet supernatural events are the basis for your belief i.e. "god inspired" scripture.

How do you reconcile your belief in an all mighty, omnipresent, benevelent god while thousands of innocent babies, children, and adults died during the moments it took you to write your post? Is it fair that you enjoy a special relationship with your savior while all this suffering is taking place?

Maybe if you and your ilk didn't harm others by way of interfering with stem cell research, for example, you and your ilk would garner more respect.

Prounion: 1st of all you need to understand that I do not have to defend my God to believe in Him. 2nd of all as a Christian I don’t have to quote scripture to convince someone that he is real. If you choose by your readings of the Bible to not believe than that is your choice. You have said that you have a hardened heart in past posts and it is obvious that you live with great pains because of it. It is my only hope that you will find a way to soften that heart and ease your pains so you don’t have to find yourself defending what you believe in.

Kleej, I was talking about the friends of whoever wrote the quote.

And, yes, let's hear about those stolen liberties.

Kleej...We still want to know which liberties are being taken away. You made a claim, NOW BACK IT UP!!! or admit that your assertion was way off base!

Come on Kleej your supreme creator being must have left evidence or some sort of logical arguement to support his existance - why can't any of you folks discuss that evidence?

DiGriz, that was really, really good! Moreover, I totally agree with the sentiment you expressed.

Now... get started on that book. ;~)

gazettefan, thanks for the tip, however, the class of people I choose to hang out with actually give a hoot about other people and are making a difference on a larger scale than you can even fathom. It would appear that your "wisdom" is limited to a public blog being you spend pretty much all day in here. If that's the class of people you choose to hang out with and the extent of it, that's your deal, but, I like my chances better. Thanks for trying though. God bless you.

I agree with Prounion!
Wow, now I don't know what to do. This is like matter and anti-matter coming together.
I guess I'll go wander aimless and confused until Pro says something... well, you know, like he usually says and then I'll call him a 'troll' and all will be righted again.

My research as an expert bible scholar indicates that it was indeed not christmas trees but instead wooden idols.
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Christmas trees would have been a custom of folks from the pagan lands in northern Europe, which would also tend to indicate that they were speaking of wooden idols. It seems the x-mas tree deal was factored in later - as the germanic tribes were assimilated into the religion?
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He is after all a very jealous god and if one of his creations worships another, well then he gets all terminatorish.

I wait with bated breath for the first draft, DiGriz! BTW, feel free plagiarize any FOTH post.

Is there a statistical difference between the christian population when if comes to any type of behavior or trait?
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Teen pregnancy - higher, Divorce rate - higher, murder rate, crime rate? If they are more moral it should be measurable right?

Kleej, I would suggest that the source of your recent quote start hanging out with a better class of people.

But I do agree that consumption is close to being a run-away problem in this culture. Especially in light of what Jesus (not the fabrication of the christ) truly taught.

And whether our current state is as bad as you describe it or is somewhere along the lines of a significant fraction of that assertion, why wasn't the problem forstalled by chrisitianity and the foothold it has had on humanity for 2000 years?

The answer is that christianity has no basis in the supernatural and an all mighty benevolent god. Chrisitinity is a human creation and contains all the pitfalls of the human experience. However, christinity and those who promote it are especially culpable for our current state because it and they falsely assume and egregiously fail to achieve the moral highground.

"We would have to surmount the ensconced undue and irrational idea that belief deserves a special deference."

Exactly! The natural, knee-jerk reaction most folks have to the outlandish idea of suing religion is self-incriminating. I'm thinking the "Twelve Angry Men" formula, with jurors being the only fully developed characters from disparate backgrounds and the trial limited to flashbacks. Very rich possibilities...

Religion without "leadership" is just "religion".

"We are truly the lost generation.....huffing and puffing down the fast track to nowhere, always looking to the dollar sign for direction.. That's the only standard we recognize. We have no built-in beliefs, no ethical boundaries" ~ The Texas Post

We would have to surmount the ensconced undue and irrational idea that belief deserves a special deference.

Hey, DiGriz, there's your book: "Religion on Trial". Just imagine the cross examinations. It practically writes itself, eh?

thesaint and matthew.... haven't read their bible.

Yes, the endtime was supposed to come within the lifetime of Jesus' followers.

And all fallen nations have had religion.

Matt516 - when you say that nations fall because of a lack of religion, which do you mean? The Roman Empire fell after many centuries due in part to corrupt religion and then superstition, religion and chaos reigned for centuries. During the dark ages there was some order in muslim lands, maybe Islam the religion you are advocating?

Yea pulled the video off of that saint guy's website. I figure for the book we could use one of the many end of the world predictions that come and go as a comparison between jesus saying he would return in the lifetimes of the people he was speaking with at the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmLhyPjHV...
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2012?

GFan, that breach of contract lawsuit got me wondering... Has anyone ever sued a church for fraud? The precedent for suing a church is well established in case law, and we all know the adjudication of the claim that ID/creationism is "science". But, what about every day, run-of-the-mill fraud? I.e. the failure to deliver goods or services, as promised. I was thinking specifically in terms of Jehovah's Witnesses who, for nearly 150 years, have been promising Armageddon within OUR lifetime. Clearly, their earliest followers were deceived. But, generally speaking, it's a fascinating exercise to imagine what sorts of arguments one could legally present to a court of law in defense of religious dogma and doctrine as "truth". True believers should welcome the opportunity to settle the debate once and for all, wouldn't you say?

Yes, Don_Diego, we await the answer to that question and many more.

[crickets... crickets...]

Whoever was quoted by DiGriz: Respond in detail point-for-point to what others say. That is a rule of debate. All you do is insult people as a way of avoiding your untenable position.

Aren't we still waiting for kleej to tell us which of our liberties are being taken away?

Say DiGriz is this the way it is?
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/ul...

Stay safe we do need you back.

RAmen

Great long post, DiGriz. And bibledude's and billnewbie's self-flagulation happened while they were here.

Great cause of action for a law suit, foolonthehill.

Kleej, what about the christian principal that has christians stoning a woman because she isn't a virgin?

Amen KLEEJ! It's called a solid foundation to build a country on. These "post modernists" prefer to build foundations on sand and use staple guns to erect their structure. History proves what happens when that approach is taken. These people just keep chiseling away at the rock solid foundation this country was built on and wonder why the structure is nearing collapse. It's called not learning from the past. Nations die from this! The pride before the fall.

DiGriz, that's the problem with you post modernists. You like to re-write everything to fit into what YOU think it should read for your own purpose. The Christian principles I follow are the one's that have been put it in stone thousands of years before me. I choose to honor them because it serves the good of everyone, not just ME.

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/jon/...

Right. Gazettefan and I will hide out on the grassy knoll in Catholic cheerleader drag.

On second thought, maybe you two hang out.

Kleej, should we put thesaint (Larr bear) in charge? Check him out!

Myspace page - wow - ummmm, when we get together for a beer with Griz - lets communicate the time and place privatly.

Kleej - what about the biblical case to support slavery? Is that part of the moral compass?
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Point is that when you do not take the entire bible as the source of your morals, but instead select which passages determine your morals, then you are in fact the source of your own morality.

America is no longer guided by Christian principles. Secular humanism now directs the public affairs of our nation. This philosophy denies God, Christ and the Bible. When we remove God's standards, then man is free to substitute his own standards of morality and we disallow the divinity of Christ and His completed work on the cross. Then there is no longer any need for God and His atoning grace. The moral compass points to what is right in the eyes of each individual without respect to God's standards.

You forgot one, GFan. Grounds for class action suit against institution(s) who issued diploma(s). Has anyone ever tried that in the name of every taxpayer in a school district over a twelve year period?

Predictions:

Unlawful use of a crawlspace

Mall appearance with firearm

Flight school --take-off and landing lessons omitted

Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!! Oh my god!!!

I visited your MySpace page, thesaint. All I can say is wow... I am speechless!

Except for joejack, I think we have our first poster from Our Lady of the Red Door Church Bar and Grill.

Let's have some more ministering, thesaint.

;~)

u2 sound more like 2 stupid comideans smacking eachother in the face trying to bounce stupid punch lines off of each other!! ya your mature

well anyone that actualy is a human being myspace Larr bear

ur guys post scream I DONT KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT IM SOMEONE TRYING DESPRATLY TO MAKE A POINT!!!

If you knew what you were talking about you wouldnt be saying it!

take care man

dude!! no ark read the bible look it up on files they found the ship and your laughing at me????? whats up with people like you? your the 2nd atheist that ive talked to that sucks at their research. well i should say all atheists suck at it cause if they realy knew about God they would be pentecostal.

lol you can laugh al you want and hes your God to these things will happen but God protects his own.

Im glad i dont know you your just one of the people that are screwing up this world.

and its very funny that you try to make me look crazy but its sad that with all the proof their is you still try to back up ur theroy prity soon beleave me that smile will be wiped off ur face in a heart beat.

and thats fine dont do myspace if you dont want to then dont thats for those that want to cheak out the true.

you have Satan in you and trying to push your OPINION its not going to work for those that want truth.

you want it we have the bible if not then get on with your life.

well anyway people dont let others like this discrimanate you from serving God study Gods word against any religion thats out their and pray for truth Have faith and you'll never go wrong and the closer to God you get the more he will attack you look at this for instance their trying to slauter me it wont work as long as you follow God NO one can stand in your way!!

...my Pastor, Moe.

It's even funnier if you imagine him saying it from an inflatable doughnut.

Barney Gumble! ROTFLMAO, DiGriz!!

Theme: truth-avoiders can't survive in the wilderness because reality is the only arbiter. Traveler goes through many phases from denial to acceptance to understanding, gaining strength in the shedding of fear and superstition, he emerges a confident, rational being.

Nice soliloquy, DiGriz. Could be part of a dialog between a traveler and his guide during on a long wilderness journey on foot. (All inspired by the "dialog" in these comment boards, sans all the interruptions and digressions.) Only difference being, you'd write both sides. Begins with the rantings of the traveler, while the guide remains silent. Guide is believed to be a mute during the first few chapters.

DrTalk, billnewbie, and bibledude all banned themselves from this site.

Though I suspect that one or two of them is back with different screen names.

We really need for DrTalk to come back. He would inform you Griz that there was an ark, unicorns did exist, as well as dinosaurs, which were hunted to extinction immediatly after the ark. Also Giants and dragons, which were dinosaurs.
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Also all the continents were one, just a few thousand years ago, allowing the animals to walk across land to board the ark, then the continents split apart, and thats how you get the animals distributed globally after the ark.
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I forgot to ask him how you get the fossil record so exact though with less complexity as you go further down the strata and backwards in time. And the way that dinosaur and human fossil records show a different series of events.

Pro, I'm thinking it should provide the same comfort, support and security people get from religion, while gradually weening the reader off the need for it. That's a rather strange theme that violates the standard rules of essay --starting at one place only to end up at another. Maybe it should be a novel about a journey. That would be non-threatening. So, how are you at writing fiction, DiGriz?

thesaint's post screams of the narcissism intrinsic to belief. The fairy tale give them personal comfort even though the star of the fairy tale does nothing to assuage the suffering of others.

thesaint, while you were writing your post, thousands of innocent babies, children, and adults died from diseases and other causes.

Where was you god then? helping you with you typing? sorting out the prayers of players on opposing football teams? WHERE?!!!

Write a book? Count me in. A kickboard that slowly dissolves, very interesting. Could we write such a kickboard for christians? It seems it would need to appear to be simple christian propoganda so they would read it, but it would actually teach them how to use logic and reason?

the sad and very wrong thing is that people think that in order to be a christain you have to be dumber then a box of rocks and thats not it at all the smartest people aut there are christains because we will live forever as long as we obey Gods every word with fear and trembleing we will learn forever my pastor is the smartest person i know and the wisest. Atheists that dont beleave in after life God or anything but things that are infront of them those are the ones i dont put much stock in there so closed off but christains beleave that we are safe as long as we dont tempt God that God has no boundries but if he sets any theres a reason.

those that put all of their stock into God and follow Acts 2:38 Repent be Baptized and Receavie the Baptizum of the Holy Ghost with the spirit giving you utterance and stay in Gods word no matter whatyou cant go wrong. Having God lead you isnt ignorant its ignorant not to.

Remember myspace look up Larr bear and ill help with any Qs or anything else

DiGriz Unicorns did exist the bible makes small mention of them but i think that they didnt make the ark to escape the flood so they probably just died. but are mentioned thats what i think

Awwww, you can do it DiGriz! If I could write, I'd have already written it myself. You could beta test it on your sister, inflatable doughnut girl. Poking sticks don't work. That only makes 'em clench the doughnut even tighter. How about this for a title:

FFFfffffffssssst

I smell a Best Seller!

(No, I don't think wolves and sheep was my analogy.)

'"Inflatable doughnut boy....." I can't stop laughing!!'

Me too. Is that appropriate or what?? LOL

Great. Same concept. Consider how swim instructors never use doughnuts because they only foster weakness and permanent dependence. You can't learn to swim from a doughnut. Swim instructors use kickboards.

Instead, DiGriz offers doughnut boy a specially designed kickboard that slowly dissolves in the ocean water. It gives doughnut boy all the security he needs now, while teaching him to swim without even realizing it. No terror necessary.

Problem is, no one has yet invented such a kickboard. I say you are the perfect guy to build one, DiGriz. :-)

LOL OK, how about an analogy instead?

Let's say reality is the ocean. DiGriz and his buddies are swimming all around in it, diving to explore the mysteries on the bottom, just having a great ol' time. They come upon somebody floating on an inflatable doughnut, who says to them, "You idiots need to have one of these! Without one, you'll surely drown!" Simultaneously, DiGriz and his buddies pull out their pointy poking sticks and make a bee-line toward inflatable doughnut boy. The mere threat of the poking stick incites great terror and, if they do manage to poke enough holes to deflate his doughnut, he will surely drown because he never learned how to swim.

...with me so far?

LOL Yes, it is totally counter-intuitive and paradoxical but just ponder it for a bit. Got any better suggestions? Imagine you wrote such "scripture" today but could go back and hand it to your former, vulnerable self? That's what I'm talking about.

Am I mistaken or is that basically what Scientology is all about?

OK... so maybe atheists and deists need to create a "religion of reason", complete with a rational doctrine and rigid dogma. For people like your sister, that could form a non-destructive and harmless framework --the spiritual equivalent of a infant's pacifier.

Hmmm... I surmise she is not someone you can ever "reason with", DiGriz? Considering the wild swings, it sounds as though a more suitable medication might be indicated.

Oh yeah, DiGriz, she's totally nuts. And a certain christian type for sure.

Yes, DiGriz, let's have it!

Amen.

Has there been any indication that any of them post here? I wish someone would.

They will no doubt be praying for your salvation, GFan. Clink!

The congregants of the Church of the Red Door must be gearing up for the holy water right about now.

What she doesn't understand is that the assimilation of Jesus with paganism was one of the greatest marketing ploys ever conceived. No assimilation with paganism, then no christianity.

This assimilation includes that Jesus was perverted into something called Christ -virgin birth etc.

To take it one step further... imagine her having been born and raised in Kabul.

Interesting example, DiGriz. I think cognitive dysfunction, confusion and fear are causal precursors, not effects. Rigid rules and scripted guidelines for thought and morality provide a welcome haven for people coping with, what they perceive to be, "the horror of reality". In other words, when your thought processes are chaotic, what could make more sense than the nonsensical?

foolonthehill, and the imaginary friends of children now are a remnant of the imaginary friends of the childhood of the human species.

Yes, GFan, transitional state. That's what I was alluding to earlier re: evolution of human cognitive development. The entire evolutionary process is modeled in the development of fetus to adult. (Think: children with monsters under their beds.)
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Takin' off here, boss. I'll look for some good stories upon my return, DiGriz!

DiGriz, the creatures in the bible are a great source of embarrassment for believers. Why are they there? I can only guess that back then human thinking was in a transitional state. A state in which living creatures (animals) outside the human species were confused or conflated with notions of the supernatural. Notions of the "supernatural" were required to comprehend the incomprehensible -what makes things move?! -why does such and such happen?! Later, the supernatural creatures became human-like. Later, still, the human-like "gods" became one god. For a time, the creatures co-exited with human-like gods.

However, in christianity we only have monotheism if you ignore your two least favorite gods of the trinity.

foolonthehill, self-deletion is a possibility. I've done it myself. Ironically, I've done it once or twice without success. His "self-deletion" could be the first step on his long road to redemption, true?

Don't forget Neanderthals and a few other distinctly unique hominid skeletons, DiGriz. Did you know that, if you clamp your eyes shut and jam your fingers in your ears while yelling "lalalalalala" really loud, that evidence will simply disappear? Miraculous!

Yes, DiGriz, a four-way toast! Loved the narwhal unicorn stuff. BTW, the King James bible mentions unicorns.
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GFan: my only removed post was totally justified. It was neither political nor religious; just an off-color joke about where lawyers come from. Do you think the deletions you mention might actually be self-initiated upon reflection?

foolonthehill, yes it was. And I have mixed feelings about who's responsible for having it deleted.

From what I've seen on this site, christian posts and christian posters far out number non-christian posts and non-believing posters when it comes to being deleted and banned from this site.

As a matter of fact, I know of no non-believer here who has been banned in response to his or her atheistic posts. The irrationality on the part of believers that causes their problems here perfectly mirrors the inherent irrationality of their belief system.

GFan, was that the "poopy pants post" that got deleted? That's a shame because there is no argument quite so unequivocally convincing as self-incrimination.

IndysGirl, if you weren't Indy's girl, I would buy you chocolates and flowers and serenade you below your balcony!

Well said, IndysGirl. Those statements you quoted are simply the mindless parroting of rhetoric with absolutely no basis in fact or evidence to support them. (A consistent and common theme, you see.) Textbook straw man argument.

"Our rights are God given. Our rights are not socially given. We answer to a higher power. Regardless if my God is "your" God, the principles of the Ten Commandments give society a moral compass in which to build laws around."
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Why are Christians so arrogant to think that somehow that it was exclusively the "Ten Commandments" which gave guidelines for ethics and modern law. The moral and ethical principles cited in The Ten Commandments are a common theme in other world religions as well, and not to mention, classic Greek philosophy.
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"Again I say, if anti-Christians are so against these principles, why obey any law handed down by your city, state or national governing body then?"
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Why does anyone obey the law, then? It's not about being a Christian or Non-Christian. I will never understand the "them vs. us" mentality. I am not a Christian, but that doesn't make me an anarchist. I am a law abiding citizen like anyone else. Again, it is ignorant to generalize that non-Christians lack a "moral-compass." Where have I argued this point before?

DiGriz and GFan: Bros... we are totally on the same page. Virtual toast!

Yes, DiGriz, (your 9am), and what are they saying about themselves when they need an ever-watching Officer god to be good. Can't they be good without anyone watching? To be good when no one is watching is supposed to be a true sign of character. If someone always has to be watched by an all-powerful creature where is the positive measure of character? There is none. It's quite the opposite.

Maybe maxdetail can spend some time this weekend thinking about why so many of christian posts get deleted. Like his November 13th 3:27pm post.

And he could think about the trinity too. The trinity is supposed to be the god inspired scriptural basis for what the cheerleaders believe.

And to him or Kleej: once again: the golden rule predates christianity. To some degree, the golden rule predates our species. The golden rule is a phenomenon of biological and social evolution.

DiGriz: I agree with regard to your son. Somewhere around the age of seven or eight, I deduced the truth about religion, Santa, Easter Bunny, etc, all on my own by applying the same thought processes to each logical dilemma. That didn't, however, automatically make me atheist. I presumed the existence of a creator, except that "it" wouldn't and couldn't possibly bear any resemblance whatsoever to the god of religion. I simply became a deist lacking facts.

I think its great they want to show their love for God to the world as long as the skirts arnt to low cut just normal langth. I think we took God out of too much and that is saying we dont want God and He dosent so up where hes not wanted.

Ya many people get offended when religion or God is mentioned because of the fear of their life being changed.

I dont know their religion and would like to.

But im a Pentecostal and I myself am offended that My friend is being kicked out everywhere. Knowone cares if we get ofended it seems they just want to get rid of us.

I think they are doing great they want to please God but to try to stay on topic in Acts 2:38 tells how to receave salvation and God said with out Faith its impossible to please him.

Im open to talk to anyone that wants to on this.

Contact me on myspace sreen name larr bear

DiGriz, that's a fascinating historical tidbit, I've never heard of that and want to look into it. Thanks. Luther would be fun to have here, he wouldn't hold back and I bet the language would get very colorful. Katherine's beer would be awesome though.

Weekend is here and I have a lot to do. Wife won't let me play on the computer. (I answer to a higher power.) I'll try and rejoin the fight but it may have to wait til Monday. Good Sabbath and a blessed Lord's Day to ya'll. Stay safe, it's a fallen world. Love ya.

DiGriz, my kids share my atheism and perspective on other peoples' religion and that was accomplished strictly via osmosis! Cool, huh?

I would have to say that, without any exception of which I'm am aware, every single one of my bible-thumping born-again friends hit rock-bottom on drugs, alcohol or debauchery just prior to "finding Jesus". They were admittedly helpless and out of control. Now, I would like to be idealist and say I could have talked them to safety using reason but that would be a lie. I think it is more complicated than that. However, I do believe that if a child today is not exposed to any manner of religion, they won't instinctively gravitate to it on their own. In other words, religion was a predictable phenomenon, naturally spawned by a particular phase of human evolution --a phase that is long past. Kinda like cognitive training wheels.

It must be a higher power, DiGriz. Hmmmm... so then, whose side is he/she/it on??

Nice, DiGriz. I've always thought the original purpose of religion was to herd those who would otherwise be incapable of behaving on their own. In other words, it's the same behavior modifying concept as, "You'd better watch out... you'd better not pout..." This is why I am not, per se, anti-religious Some people really do seem to need it (or some reasonable facsimile) for the same reason children need parents. (That last sentence just might bring Billnewbie out swinging! ;~)

Well said, Don.

Principles of morality were created by man long before Judeo-Christian-Islam religions. The claim that anyone who doesn't share your religious beliefs is against moral principles is yet another libelous strawman. And I think I speak for most every non-Christian that it is quite a ridiculous claim. Do you guys take those egos into church with you??

Next you'll be claiming that I want to ban bible thumping cheerleaders because they offend me.

We are not anti-Christian per se, but rather anti-funding ANY religion with public monies. This includes putting up nativity scenes in front of city hall, building statues of crosses in public parks, and holding up Bible signs at public school football games. I can promise you that all of us would be against it if it were a muslim, hindu, jew, etc... doing it. The problem is that since the majority of Americans belong to a Christian religion they believe that these activities are okay since they are in the majority. We as non-believers do not wish for any religion to be promoted with public monies. We don't care which one! The problems is that Christians feel marginalized when they don't get their way. Then they think the world is against them which feeds these feelings creating a vicious cycle. Feel free to preach your beliefs on a mountain top, put up a 200 foot cross on the front lawn of your church, etc... just stop asking for money to promote it then feel ostracized when you don't get it.

1. These principles do not belong ONLY to Christianity, that is flawed logic.

2. I still want to know what freedoms you think were being denied slowly but surely. Please answer this question.

max, correct! Our rights are God given. Our rights are not socially given. We answer to a higher power. Regardless if my God is "your" God, the principles of the Ten Commandments give society a moral compass in which to build laws around. Too many blowhards are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces over that. It's called the post modernist worldview. Again I say, if anti-Christians are so against these principles, why obey any law handed down by your city, state or national governing body then?? The laws are derived from Christian principles whether people agree with that or not. Even if I weren't Christian, I'd still be strongly in favor of it being unlawful to kill another human being!

I strongly disagree with idea that the founding premise assumed man to be fundamentally depraved. It was simply a wise acknowledgment of the fact that there always has been and always will be tyrants who seek to dominate and control others and, given the opportunity, tyrants seek domination through government, IF said government is permitted to become too powerful. The purpose of checks and balances is to limit a tyrant's power. The purpose of a constitutional republic is to limit the tyranny of democracy. By drawing a sharp line between religion and government, they sought to prevent any possibility of a theocracy.

Troll, maxdetail, the empty-headed troll, at this site people can voluntarily give their opinions, that's what this site is for. I'm not against that.

When it comes to what's wrong with religion and belief, you're a case in point, you have revealed nicely that the religious mentality is confined to a small space. You're missing the true human experience. Your thinking is stuck in an area equivalent to that of the Taliban and Al Queada.

The issue is: it's wrong to foist religiosity into areas where the separation of church and state applies. If you and Kleej don't like the line between church and state, then you should both champion the cause for taxing churches.

And while you're here, why don't bring up something in scripture for discussion. Let's have your thoughts on the trinity.

Thanks, foolonthehill

So then, if your public school district is transformed by a local Islamic voting majority, you will have no problem with your cheerleaders wearing burkas and shouting "Allah Akbar!" at football games, correct?

Is Kleej ever going to tell us as to which liberties are disappearing?

I would agree that the country was not founded as a Christian nation and many of the leaders were indeed deists. Today, conceptually the US is more Hindu than Christian (see Newsweek article http://www.newsweek.com/id/212155).

There was one important aspect of America's beginnings that was distinctively Christian. The Constitution is built upon the premise that man is depraved, in other words, there is something intrinsicly defective inside us all and if left to do as we want we will destroy ourselves and each other. Most of the world throughout history has been governed by kings or small groups of leaders. America is built upon the rule of law. We include many levels of checks and balances in our government to allow for our own nastiness.

Totalitarian governments are controlled by evil people. The so-called Christian empire was just a kingdom ruled by evil men. We all tend toward tribalism. Even Christians, if they forget that there is a law Giver who is transcendent (outside of us) will become tribal and destroy each other. It's in our nature.

The founding fathers also recognized that rights come from God. Today many think rights are part of being an individual, there seems to be new 'rights' to do just about anything appearing on the scene out of nowhere.

The original definition of Seperation of Church and State was based on protecting the local churches from a gov't sponsored national church! This seperation has been turned upside down to mean seperation of any religious values from the state. Our forefathers hit the nail on the head because they were actually THINKERS and not conformers! A society cannot survive while rejecting all religous values and principles. Take a good look around you! Principles are timeless. They aren't negotiable! Ideas have consequences. This country has survived quite well with these principles for 200+ years. Get over it.

I'll rephrase my First Amendment question to make it simple: Do you understand why the Lakeview Thorpe decision to bar the Biblical verse banner was proper, while the Baldwinsville decision to fold over Antonio's drawing of Jesus was improper? http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2009/nov...

I hate when people try to link our fortune as a nation with our "Christianity". Why do countries that do not espouse the "Christian principles" succeed i.e. China, Rome, etc...? Then the argument is god causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Then what difference does it make that Americans follow Christ or not. Apparently god is fairly arbitrary in who he blesses or doesn't.

The founding fathers were predominantly deist, DiGriz. (You already knew that.) If they had intended to found a "Christian nation", they certainly would not have overlooked that "minor" detail in drafting the founding documents, would they? On the contrary, they specifically stated otherwise in Treaty of Tripoli: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." It's time to drop the Christian Nation strawman.

My question remains unanswered...

Gazettefan's remark had nothing to do with atheism. It could have been written by a moderate Christian. (Incidentally, isn't it about tee-diddly ime for Ned Flanders' appearance posterino?)

You keep saying that G-fan but it's you that keeps taking up residency in these threads of various topics to rant about your atheist beliefs ad infinitum. You certainly have the right to do so but it's still annoying. Have I called you a troll today? I don't think so - troll.

Kleej wants to have the "freedom" to impose his religious fascism on everyone else.

You can quote the religiosity of founding fathers until you run out of quotes, Kleej. Their own personal religiosity is totally irrelevant to the intent of the First Amendment to the Constitution.

The indisputable fact remains: the founding fathers made a specific point of limiting the religiosity of the United States government. My question remains unanswered.

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”
James Madison

That this nation was founded to assure its citizens "Freedom of Religion" NOT "Freedom from Religion!"

America is no longer guided by Christian principles. Secular humanism now directs the public affairs of our nation. This philosophy denies God, Christ and the Bible. When we remove God's standards, then man is free to substitute his own standards of morality and we disallow the divinity of Christ and His completed work on the cross. Then there is no longer any need for God and His atoning grace. The moral compass points to what is right in the eyes of each individual without respect to God's standards.

Honestly? Isn't in unbecoming to wish your team to win while wishing the other ill in the name of the supposedly all loving and unifying god? I think someone else brought this up as well.Isn't it kind of a slap in the face to ask your god to bless your team and make the other team lose in the lord's name?And we're all supposed to be equally blessed and loved, but love your team more than the other? I mean, I don't get it. If people we're really religious, they'd try to replace competitive sports with unifying church service and group pray sessions, wouldn't they? This whole concept is laughable and hypocritical, near as I can tell. Say the prayer in your head, or with your friends, separate from school. I'm sure god will love you and bless you the same either way, if that's what you're worried enough to make a sign about.

Kleej: I guess I need you to be more specific about which rights are being taken away. I have read the Constitution quite thoroughly and still do not know which rights you refer. Please expound.

Duck!!! The quotation marks about to start flying!!!

Keej: So, what is your point with regard to the First Amendment? (Be specific)

The truth be told!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQOCvthw...

Educate yourself by reading the books that formed the ideas used by the Founders of America. Anything else is just plain mental lazineness. American's cannot afford to be lazy any longer.

And on a Gov. website yet. RAmen

Hey GFan. I found Him.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/

Just a couple of clicks and you can see Him working on a new world. I guess He's given up on this one. RAmen

He fanatically copies and pastes. It doesn't matter what it is. It soothes his inability to articulate.

"One of the main reasons that the American people have allowed the wholesale dismantling of their freedoms and liberties..." Which freedoms and liberties?

Yeah, sure, constitutional problems are why the catholic church fosters institutionalized child rape and why there is illicit sex in the christian clergy-class.

Yeah, that's what god wants to do with the cheerleaders, bless them.

Practically all of the problems in our country can be attributed to the continuing subjugation of the U.S. Constitution. Had the remedies for such actions, which are provided in the text of the Constitution, been applied, many of our former, (as well as current), leaders would have been prosecuted and removed from public office. One of the main reasons that the American people have allowed the wholesale dismantling of their freedoms and liberties stems from the effectiveness of the all pervasive misinformation campaign that has been waged for over 100 years. Most of us believe that we live in the land of the free. A place where every child has the opportunity to grow up and be President of the United States. This belief is, in the best-case scenario, a stretch. In the worst case, a bald faced lie. Our political leaders are increasingly sourced from a pool of self-perpetuating elitists whose main concern is to distance themselves from the masses. When Constitutional law stands in their way, they ignore it. We are not being shepherded by altruistic wise men, but, rather, herded by megalomaniacal desperadoes. ~ Kenneth Parsons

God bless the public school cheerleaders.

Ezoner: My apologies if I misunderstand, but are you equating this issue with political correctness? I hate political correctness, which has nothing to do with this particular case of public school cheerleaders.

Did Rush or Fox or Glen go on a rant lately about political correctness and its evils? I have not seen this much upset at PC in years. I think I'll watch Fox tonight - PC seems to get brought up every few posts since the end of last week.

God Bless you and may God bless our Nation and her Armed Forces and their families.

Look -- I'm as flexible as the next guy, believe or don't. QUite honestly, that's your personal decision. However, I see nothing wrong with a display if all the cheerleaders agree thats what they want to do. If restricted, I feel they should quit, and the same for football players that object to outside influence upon what they want to express as long as it is morally acceptable.

What would we have then -- no football, no soccer, nothing, -- then the kids could establish private leagues or clubs, where they could do as they please. the clubs could complete and the schools could focus upon education.

Oh -- but what would happen to the revenue from sports -- I think the song would change then. I am tired of people being politically correct. Its killing us as a nation.

igotclout.. thanks for the link "flying spaghetti monster".. finally a church I'm willing to join..

And this is why politicians and other people lie about being christians and believers. They do not want to endure the christian wrath of christians.

Interesting point, Prounion. (Not that I would personally want to experiment with that.)

That brings to mind another hypothetical... Let's say there are two identical cars parked overnight in a darkened city parking lot. One has a bumper sticker that reads, "Proud Christian" and the other car's bumper sticker reads, "Proud Atheist". Which car is more likely to get "keyed"?

Can you imagine if the the cheerleading squad had signs that read - wake up there is no god, or God killed over 2 million humans in the bible, satan only killed 10, or any of the biblical passages that support rape, genocide or slavery?

fyoss: distributing signs would constitute a more explicit act of promotion than holding a sign or verbally exclaiming one's own beliefs. However, if someone not affiliated with the school had distributed signs to the public off school property, there would be no Constitutional issue.

Much of this report misses the point. By expressly banning the signs, the school acted properly in NOT adopting or promoting an official religion. Therefore, no Constitutional issue occurred. That's the "news" here.

The real question is,if the young ladies would have distributed the signs to the audience.
Then inside the law would that have gotten the same press coverage?

justsome....., what's with the non sequitur?

gazettefan – There will always be a game if people are willing to play. I am, however, not one of them.

DiGriz, we definitely hear about rocket attacks fired by NATO forces that kill Afghan citizens. We might hear about incoming if nobody launches a large Mylar balloon or no pop star dies that day, etc. (Was that too cynical?) Anyway, I'm glad you weren't hit.

I predict the genome projects will ultimately redefine the designation "species" as being relatively insignificant in the grand scheme. Maybe even eliminate it altogether. It turns out that pheromones are the main determinant in inter-species mating. Therefore, the resulting genetic divergence over time may simply be the logical effect of that factor instead of its cause. Trailer parks notwithstanding, of course. ;~)

On this Veteran's Day, my heartfelt gratitude for your service to our country, DiGriz!

I am so looking forward to the day when the genomes of all the major organisms have been sequenced. Incidentally, the genome project is about halfway through the sequencing of Neanderthal DNA. Here's a recent article about human/Neanderthal hybrids that just might support your thesis. LOL

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33721697/ns/...

Good Point Griz - the best answer to the location on the globe determining which religion is believed was that people could convert to christianity if they wanted to, even if they were born somewhere else. Which I was hoping for a better answer but it doesn't seem like they can think of one either.

Again Max I think if you thought that fool was not using logic and reason you would use logic and reason to refute him, not non-christian insults.
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In fact his statement is valid these cult like falsehoods appear time and time again on this site, its really amazing the levels of ignorance out there.

Addendum: ...and the difference between belief and knowledge.

I understand Fool, in other words, you come here to shove your beliefs down everyone's throat regardless of why they may have come here. I keep saying that and you feel insulted. I'm saying nobody wants your beliefs shoved down their throats - it's distasteful.

"My only interest vis-a-vis Christians is to help them detangle the tragic cult-like falsehoods that some have been taught about science, reason and faith."

Maxdetail, to set the records straight, I have no desire to "fluster" Christians or anyone else for that matter. My only interest vis-a-vis Christians is to help them detangle the tragic cult-like falsehoods that some have been taught about science, reason and faith.

Prounion, that was a great link on evolution in that other thread, with much of what I have been saying here... except all in one place.

Max - bummer. As far as interest in the discussion and us kinda blocking others who want to talk about the topic - actually this thread was dead for weeks before G-fan posted to it and revived it after our other home was closed up.
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Again - god would not have created everything - left a book to describe his actions, sent his son to hang with us, coordinated every event on the planet - and not leave a trace. Then demand we at some point in our 1 to 90 years believe that he exists and is an all knowing, all powerful, all loving god, under penatly of eternal torment, forever and ever.
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Forgive me if I sound condecending.

Prounion, I appreciate you asking what seems to be a sincere question without the condescending tone that usually marks our discussions.

I would love to answer your questions one at a time without the mob mentality and the smoke screens but that just doesn't seem to work in this format.

I'm pretty sure Pro, that people don't come to the Janesville Gazette to solve the great cosmic puzzles of the origins of the universe, ethics and species, the questions of the grave and eternity. People come here to simply give their opinion and maybe start a discussion about the topic of an article.

As much as you and G-fan and Fool love finding a Christian to fluster and as much as I enjoy insulting ya'll, I don't think people enjoy having to step around or wade through our piles of scree all over the place.

There is no shortage of sites on the net to accommodate the great questions of consequence for those who enjoy civil debate (troll free) and those who enjoy the verbal food fight that you keep pressing for.

Good night, G-fan compared my thinking to the Taliban. You see, that's the kind of over the top verbal diarrhea that just makes us all look stupid. Anyway, I'd love to start a new stream of insults but I'll save 'em for another time. May God richly bless you and have mercy on us all. Love ya!

The nice thing about making random statements is that you don't need to back them up with facts and evidence. There isn't anything in the article that says anyone was coerced. Phrases like would have, could have and words like usually or generally add no value to a topic of conversation other than to philosophize without looking for any real results. In other words - pissing in the wind.

Max - How do you explain that the fossil record shows simple life forms growing in complexity as one moves up the strata from no life to simple life to more complex life?

One of the funniest bits ever on TV, ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQT...

It needs more cowbell!

We need more Walken!!!

*grabs popcorn, soda and a smile while he looks on eagerly*

Kind of funny how far we can deviate from the topic at hand, only to come right back to it. Although the latter proves to be difficult at times.

justsome......, thank you for the opportunity to prove to you that I'm not a fool. I'll be sure to get back to you on that score as soon as I feel up to the task.

Meanwhile, let me assure you that reading all my posts is not necessary. I will soon be releasing The Best of Gazettefan. This handsome CD will contain one thousand of my most pithy posts, read by the tri-township area's most respected Morgan Freeman impersonator, Rufus "JJ" T-Bone.

All major credit cards accepted. Merely dial 1-800-555-hereblogthis.

Each disk is $9.95 plus tax (shipping and handling are free)

Or ten disks for the low low price of $89.95 plus tax.

Order yours now while supplies last. They'll make great stocking stuffers for the holidays.

gazettefan – Your posting on Nov 9, 2009 at 9:39 p.m. was interesting, however, only a fool would post and actually believe such nonsense. Although I have no interest or time to read all of your 5626 posts, the few I have read lead me to believe that you are not a fool. However, feel free to prove me wrong. It seems that “the game is afoot”.

LOL
O No you did not
hahaha
Thanks for the humor, I needed that =)

Good catch, freeradical. It is the repetition of the troll maxdetail's posts that is cause for concern. The smallness of his thinking reflects the mentality of the Taliban.

Gazettefan- I read your post quickly, but now I think you were trying to prove a point about someone else's inability to use different phrasing? Or am I just lost here?Sorry if I initially missed your point.
Anyways
This topic is pretty cut and dry to me. You want religion, do it without taxpayer money, without school funding. No reason you can't show up and do it separate from school, that's why America is awesome =)

Gazettefan, not be nit-picky, but you said "reasonable questions" 3 times in almost as many sentences. Monotony is kind of annoying to read =p
Is it unreasonable to ask for a different phrase?
Just saying.

I'm not for bible verses in the schools or even sports, because we now have so many citizens which are not Christian. However, the founding fathers were not as secular as they are presently portrayed.
- Both the constitution and the bill of rights were written to limit the rights of government not the rights of the people, and the phrase "separation of church and state" is not in either one, but was an offhand comment in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a church, after which time, during his presidency he held christian services on sundays at the capital and was the first one to bring in a choir.. Meetings were begun with a prayer.. they named their children names like Micah and Isaiah, and many other biblical names. The oft repeated phrase actually goes like this "congress shall make no law establishing" (which) "religion"/denomination "aNd shall noT prohibit the FRee EXercise thereof", and the practices of the founding fathers, prayers before opening congress, etc, clearly shows that the exiling of christianity from all public arena was not their vision. I think it was also Thomas Jeffesrson who said of the two books to be most taught in the schools, the bible was one (but I'm not sure if it was Jefferson or someone else)..
- William Rhenquist, highly respected of the Supreme Court, said the phrase "separation of church and state" was a twisting (I think he said perversion) of history, has done much damage to the rights of the people, and should be thrown out and done away with..
- But! we do have a state enforced religion/belief/philosophy, as only one theory is allowed to be taught in the classrooms, and one can even lose their job as teacher if they refer to any of the many disparities and questions/problems in the theory.

Check this out, trolls in stereo! You guys are awesome.

Max - I like you too - and as you know I have begged you repeatedly to try to answer us with logic and reason. However as you know the bible is a great source of prejudice, from god outright supporting and defining slavery in the old testament to Jesus turning a blind christian eye to it in the new.
.
If you want us to be other than mouths and no ears, maybe you can refute some of what we have been saying. Imagine how logic and reason would be against us, as opposed to say insults.

prounion is correct, maxdetail, the repetition, at least in part, comes from YOUR inability to answer reasonable questions. Your inability to answer reasonable questions is the true source of your of humiliation which you defensively attribute to a sense of being bullied.

There is something very disturbing about your inability to respond to reasonable questions and comments. It's as though you are operating on a very narrow range of thinking.

I don't run off Pro, I just stand and watch helplessly as you guys hijack another thread with your traveling troll show, trolls. You're all mouth and no ears.

Wish I had a nickel for every pound of bandwidth you've wasted.

Furthermore I've come up with a VARIETY of labels that fit you: bigots, prejudiced, intolerant, anti-christian, religious fanatics, one-trick ponies, boring, judgmental, bullies but given this is an electronic forum, 'trolls' is perfect.

I still like you though and none of this means we can't be friends.

whythink and igotclout: Very well put!

This topic still going?
DO what you want, funded by yourself on your own time. Don't use my tax dollars for your religious gains or beliefs. How hard is this topic to quash?
Use your own money, and your own time....and this is a free country. 'Nuff said. Or so I thought...

I believe the article is pretty clear...
If the girls want to do this on their own they can...even at school.
If the crowd wants to do this...they can.
The only group that can't is the one representing the school and being funded by the government.
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No one is saying we can't express our beliefs just not as representatives of a government entity. (public school)
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I am Christian and agree 100% with this decision. I respect the separation of Church and State and those who believe something else.

Max you know as well as I do that you don't answer the questions put to you, maybe the first round but the follow up questions tend to you calling us trolls and running off.

Gazettefan, you ask the same questions in every thread that you push your dogma in. When you get answers you ignore them and repeat the same worn out questions in the next thread. Are you uneducable or just obsessive compulsive?

This is what happens when the school yard bully finds a forum. You know, you could take the positive approach and help instruct young people in how to deal with bullies... instead of being one.

A kingdom is usually associated with a monarchy.

RoadKing: in this situation, said religion would have been imposed on any non-willing participants or spectators of the event. This assumes the cheerleaders were willing participants, which, if not, would be whole other issue.

The article says "freedom from state imposed religion". If these kids are doing this voluntarily, how does it fall under the "state imposed" definition?

HHHMMMM...kingdom minded...Sounds kind of socialist to me. Or would that be a dictatorship?

kraz, describe the cheerleaders' personal relationship with god. Does it include this biblical principle?
---
"If any man takes a wife, and goes in on her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, 'I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin..." (Deuteronomy 22:13,14)

"But if ... evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)

Kraz - what do you mean by kingdom minded? End of the world and the establishment of god's kingdom on earth? Seriously do you guy base your very identity on that, that you are one of a group of kingdom minded individuals?
.
Justsome - I hope your list of colleges wasn't in reply to my statement that education levels are lower among the religious, because that really doesn't chaneg the difference in the education levels within the population.

Make that three, krazeyesv.

The issue comes down to whether or not the administration of a government-funded public school, in its official capacity and authority, had sanctioned, promoted or guided said cheerleaders' program. Are you making a case that the cheerleading squad was an autonomous, independent and sovereign entity? If not, then they were acting as representatives of said school.

The universe is the product of harmonic resonance (order) and dissonance (chaos). Biological evolution is the ongoing celebration of order over chaos.

this whole subject is about a cheerleading squad that wants to show that they believe and have a relationship with God. They are not practicing their religion we as kingdom minded people have a relationship with GOD so get over it you two who keep going on and on and on.

I think my only sheepskin is in my prophylactic..

Careful, elmoso, it appears that justsom...... has some sort of a sheepskin. Boola Boola

gazettefan..I think you maybe overestimating our fellow posters..

justsome....., college always struck me as expensive and time consuming.

Further, any learning institution that has its basis the baloney of biblical balderdash (you do know that none of that stuff is true, don't you?), is an affront to the very idea of the life of the mind and the human development of the sciences.

elmoso, re: your 8:21, I've been imagining that everyone is sitting on the edge of their chairs waiting for the next post from you or me.

elmoso, you are correct.

correction.."refer to AS position and momentum"

gazettefan..I believe when you mention "direction and speed" most physicists and myself refer to and "position and momentum"

gazettefan – If you would like to mock and demean many of the prestigious colleges that are listed in this profile, that is your right. However, I can attest to the fact that admission to these colleges is highly competitive and the education received is top notch (at least in my experience).

gazettefan..do you think anybody here actually cares about what we are discussing?

The direction and speed of a single subatomic particle cannot be predicted because the photon required to observe it changes its direction and speed, true.

But directions and speeds of large amounts particles can be predicted statistically -and not by direct observation.

sub-atomic particles cannot be predicted until they are "observed"..the addition of a photon for observation changes everything.. the macro-world being totally observed is completly different.. to those who may be interested I suggest researching physicists Werner Heisenberg and Max Born..

Prayer is harmful to a person when he or she knows they're being prayed for -they are struck by the direness of their condition.

Prayer does give the one who prays a false sense of contribution. This false sense is consistent with the general delusional mentality of belief.

justsome...., you omitted the University of Bible Prison.

All prisons are bible prisons because the subjective nature of judeo-christian-islamic thinking allows criminals to pray and forgive themselves for their crimes. This subjective and easy remedy allows them to repeat their bad behavior.

Almost all criminals are judeo-christian-islamic adherents. This is why prisons are over crowded with repeat offenders.

The behavior of subatomic particles can only be predicted statistically. This is not entirely true of the behavior of objects in the macro-world. There is a difference.

I will concede that chance is an important factor in the human experience and the macro-world. But unlike the behavior of particles in the micro-world, chance isn't all there is to the human experience and the behavior of objects in the macro-world.

Roman Catholic Colleges (169)
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http://www.campuscorner.com/religious-af...

science shows that prayer does have a measurable effect..but only to the person that is doing the praying.. in other words praying for someone or something is a exercise in futility..

Kleej do you have any evidence that you are blessed by god? Studies show that prayer does not have a measurable effect. Satistics show a higher divorce rate and teen pregnancy rate among christians. HIV/AIDS rates are the lowest among lesbians, way lower than among christians. Education level is lower among the religious. Just not seeing the evidence.

the micro world of particle physics is the foundation of the macro world of reality.. so uncertainty definitely applies..

elmoso, luck is a factor in the macro-world but no quantum physicist has ever said that the micro-world of particle physics applies to the macro-world we call reality.

Kleej, plain and simple, indeed.

It looks like we'll continue to be your host. But once you come into full bloom as the christian Al Qaeda, LOOK OUT!!!

quantum physics tells us that reality is a series of probability, chance and uncertainty..
so "luck" is involved..

gazettefan, no such things as "luck". We're blessed by God..plain and simple.

roadking, you are correct.

The word is INSIGHT.

I wonder how believers feel when they're eating bananas.

Thanks, GFan! You may have noticed that to be my guiding thesis in most conflicts; the Chimp Tribal Gene has outlived its evolutionary usefulness and become the fundamental source of most self-inflicted human misery.

incite?

To carry it further, time will determine if the parasite will do itself in by destroying its host. Or, if the host will survive by destroying the parasite. Or, if the parasite and host will continue to co-exist.

The parasite's access to atomic weapons is what makes possibility number one a dire concern.

foolonthehill, great incite!

Kleej, you left out the holy ghost.

By the way, did "Christ" always exist or was he created at a certain point in history? Bible scripture is conflicted about this. What's your take on it?

And when you're done with that, explain the trinity (you broached the subject). Explain it without resorting to pantheism while remembering that there is only "one god." Good luck.

truth... said: "Some people just think they "HAVE TO KNOW" absolutely everything which causes them to go down limitless wrong-direction rabbit trails."

truth.., your celebration of intentional ignorance is duly noted.

truth.., there are no problems with evolution. As a matter of fact, fossils aren't necessary to verify it -even your pope accepts it. You describe the theory as erratic, this just isn't true. You're making that up. Or, you're imposing the problems with your own belief system onto evolution.

For instance, your belief system was largely fabricated by a bunch of liars, the most famous of which is Paul. Paul claims to have had a conversation with a dead guy. Another liar said that Paul could raise the dead. This is okay with you, but evolution isn't?!

Nothing we understand about evolution depends on piltdown man. On the other hand, your belief system is ossified bullcrap.

This is the definition of "theory" that applies to evolution (it's not the one about speculation):

"A set of statements or principles developed to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena."

DiGriz, do you appreciate the irony here? A reluctance to think independently --expressed more by some humans than others-- is directly owed to the Chimp Tribal Gene we inherited from our ancient primate ancestors. The irony is, one of the more powerful genetic and anthropological arguments in support of human evolution is most profoundly exhibited by those most vehemently opposed to evolution. (This is a common theme repeated throughout most other areas of human socialization.)

DiGriz- Nope, there are tons more problems with "human evolution" and "evolution" that I'm not going to spend the next 6 months on here citing.
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Some people just think they "HAVE TO KNOW" absolutely everything which causes them to go down limitless wrong-direction rabbit trails.
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If the money spent to go down these rabbit trails was spent on things that actually help mankind, we would all be better off.

No, I surely don't understand the "evolutionary process" as it is so famously "taught".....and neither does anyone else who tries to.. They just dance and hopscotch from one spurious "theory" to the next.
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People just can't come to terms that there are things they don't know and probably won't....But as long as there is big money in new so-called "theories", why not keep on going down rabbit trails.

I wonder if the made-up "piltdown man" is still used in the famous "human evolution" lineup along with other clever convolutions.

futurerichguy- Years ago, I was treated to Carl Sagan films in high-school biology classes that passed for "education".....I don't doubt that some of the same kind of nonsense is incorporated in "college-level" stuff today.

whoanellie- Very true!!.....There have been instances where a man has been filming a *PUBLIC* cheerleading performance being accused of being a pervert for doing so..Just how CONVOLUTED is that???

truth1, instead of educating yourself by watching TV and asking these discussion boards who the "common ancestor" is, you should try a college level biology course.

It seems really bad that just because some cheerleaders wanted to hold a sign that they are ostracised but our own cheerleaders, even at the Jr. High level swish their little butts in short skirts and hardly any clothing at all and everyone applauds! there is something wrong with this picture! Let's see something moral and right and something offensive and practically obscene and people think it's alright! this is perverted!!

People should watch those PBS evolution programs and listen to the talking voice while mentally deleting the sound-effects....Its surprising the different perspective you get.

If monkeys and humans "evolved" from a common ancestor, then what was that "ancestor"?....and why are humans so much more advanced than monkeys if they "evolved" from the same "ancestor"...ONE "ancestor" cannot exist in two drastically different time frames.
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I'm assuming that bit of nonsense came from one of those PBS evolution programs with the drama and sound-effects they seem to think they need to make their cartoons believable to viewers.

Wait a tic - Allah = God. Lets provide evidence for both and see which on is really god.

gazettefan... how wrong you are! Christ=God. Nice try once again.

We learned that if a muslim died while running over Disappointed's child on his front lawn, it would be okay for the friends and family of the muslim to place the muslim symbol of a crescent moon and star on Disappointed's front lawn.

Disappointed, I hope you're reading foolonthehill's posts.

Kleej, at least no mention of Christ.

Disappointed: You have still not provided examples of crosses being specifically singled out for criminalization, per se. On the contrary, both of your examples demonstrate how privately erected crosses continue to enjoy a greater freedom of encroachment onto public properties than any other symbol, religious or otherwise.

If the phrase "pick your battles" has any meaning, this issue provides a good example. It is also a good example of that big red target that Christians are painting on their collective foot.

I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation. ~ George Washington

Now that private schools have joined the WIAA they have to leave a open door for each school to represent their theme as they see fit.

When you remove religion from the equation, things become based on morals, ethics, logic and reason. Many issues*cough* gay marriage*cough* seem pretty cut and dry to me when you remove religion. Dont push it on me, and you can practice whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want.

Public schools should be separate from church. If fans want to wave religious sayings or excerpts, great. If you want to not be on the cheerleading team, and cheerlead with yourself or friends with those signs with your time, supporting your team, go for it! But in public schools, don't use bible verses for the school's team, as a blanket statement for everyone, or blessing. It's not fair to pick one and forget the others. Do that on your own time. Supportive, sure!But if you want to mix religion, do that as your own thing. Sorry if I sound close minded(not), but it just seems like logic to me.

Access of Religious Groups to Public Property.--Although government may not promote religion through its educational facilities, it may not bar student religious groups from meeting on public school property if it makes those facilities available to nonreligious student groups. To allow religious groups equal access to a public college's facilities would further a secular purpose, would not constitute an impermissible benefit to religion, and would pose little hazard of entanglement.127 These principles apply to public secondary schools as well as to institutions of higher learning.128 In 1990 the Court upheld application of the Equal Access Act129 to prevent a secondary school from denying access to school premises to a student religious club while granting access to such other ''noncurriculum'' related student groups as a scuba diving club, a chess club, and a service club.130

Similarly, public schools may not rely on the Establishment Clause as grounds to discriminate against religious groups in after-hours use of school property otherwise available for non-religious social, civic, and recreational purposes;Supp.6 public colleges may not exclude student religious organizations from benefits otherwise provided to a full spectrum of student ''news, information, opinion, entertainment, or academic communications media groups;''Supp.7 and a state that creates a traditional public forum for citizen speeches and unattended displays on a plaza at its state capitol cannot, on Establishment Clause grounds, deny access for a religious display.Supp.8 These cases make clear that the Establishment Clause does not necessarily trump the First Amendment's protection of freedom of speech; in regulating private speech in a public forum, government may not justify discrimination against religious viewpoints as necessary to avoid creating an ''establishment'' of religion.
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http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/const...

Two clauses in the First Amendment guarantee freedom of religion. The establishment clause prohibits the government from passing legislation to establish an official religion or preferring one religion over another. It enforces the "separation of church and state." Some governmental activity related to religion has been declared constitutional by the Supreme Court. For example, providing bus transportation for parochial school students and the enforcement of "blue laws" is not prohibited. The free exercise clause prohibits the government, in most instances, from interfering with a person's practice of their religion.
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http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/First_...

Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_...

Disappointed, thank you for taking part in the experiment that always reveals how easy it is to get a christian to lie.

Not monkey to man? Funny we share about 98% of the same DNA
cool coincidence that happened.

Yea Dis theory in science means something different - an example the theory of gravity is working out pretty well for you I guess.
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It really is an ignorance thing isn't it?

FOTH- Sorry. . .this was supposed to be the other link

http://www.newsweek.com/id/71092

Pro- Keyword in your post- "THEORY" of evolution. I do believe in evolution, but w/in species. . .not monkey to man. And I was just using that as an example of tax dollars going to be used to teach one "theory", but not exploring any other "theories". And I do believe prayer should be optional in school, not BANNED. Banning things are equal to freedom FROM religion, not freedom OF religion.
________

Gazettefan- Yes, I would allow that in my yard if it were an accident. And my point about roadside memorials does not involve private property. . .I could understand someone not wanting a memorial on their own property. . .I am talking about state highways.
________
FOTH-
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...

Just a bit. Any religious folks left here to debate? Dang looks like Bill is gone for good this time huh?

Oops wrong thread!

Truth - your god would have left some evidence that he did all this, you just need to find it. He would not have created us and everything, threatened us with eternal suffering if we did not beleive, then hide all the evidence so that defending your position with logic and reason was impossible, that would just be cruel.

A little nudge toward the basis of goofy thought processes sends them scurrying.

Dissapointed one of your posts mention a concern with being too PC, then comparing the teaching of evolution in school to prayer is school. The theory of evolution is science - taught to children all over the world, its the basic principle of biology, of course it needs to be tought in school. The PC part is when christians (any religion) are allowed in any way to spread their faith based ignorance to the next generation.

Disappointed, my post referred to the friends and family of the PERSON WHO KILLED THE CHILD. Is it okay for them to put a muslim symbol on your lawn. ( I wasn't referring to the friends and family of the dead child.)

---- repost

Disappointed, the person who died slamming into your tree also killed the child of your neighbor. Is it still okay for the friends and family of the person who killed the child to place a muslim symbol on your lawn?

Gfan: I think a swastika memorial for a dead skinhead might illicit even stronger reactions, especially if the accident site was a residential neighborhood in Skokie, IL.

Disappointed: unless you have specific examples of banned roadside "crosses", in particular, my doubt remains. You implied that one particular religious expression, Christian, was being prohibited by law. In fact, restricting any and all memorials on a highway right-of-way is not the same as banning "crosses" in particular. Apple and oranges.

DAVE. . .I agree with you 100%. . .in fact I said the same thing a few comments back (Freedom OF religion vs Freedom FROM religion)
____
GazetteFan- I don't understand what that has to do with someone wanting to place a religious roadside memorial in my yard. . .I would be upset over the fact of my neighbor's child being killed no matter what religion they were. I am just saying that I would tolerate any religious symbol in my yard if it were for the purpose of grieving whether I agree with their religion or not. It doesn't change my beliefs or who I am to have another religion's symbol displayed somewhere. In fact, I think if schools taught all aspects of religion (like a theology class) people would be much more tolerable. I am Catholic, but I have no right to judge anyone else. We have free will and just because someone may have different beliefs than me does not mean I have to be offended by that.

Disappointed, the person who died slamming into your tree also killed the child of your neighbor. Is it still okay for the friends and family of the person who killed the child to place a muslim symbol on your lawn?

No, it just promotes it!

I just don't get it. When did freedom of religion become freedom FROM religion? I'm not religious at all. In fact I'm agnostic, but I just don't understand all the fuss over people's religious beliefs infringing on your right not to believe. By you saying they can't display their religion aren't you forcing your beliefs on them? I understand there are some religious fanatics out there, but you mean to say you're against morals & scruples being taught to young people? It's ok to hand out condoms & have babysitting services in schools for unwed teenagers babies, but you can't teach abstinence? It doesn't take a genius to equate the illegitimate pregnancy rate & the decline of civility in society with the decline of religion in our culture.

FOTH- "Consider also the point that atheists and other non-christians find them offensive, annoying and depressing. When you do see them, remove them as soon as possible. Every day that they stand gives some motorists the impression that the State condones religious symbols being placed along the road on State or Federal property. There is nothing stopping an individual from taking down these religious symbols." cited from http://www.atheists.org/Roadside_Crosses...

There is also a list of states which bans memorials. Many states also offer "state issued" memorials, but the reason for both of these is because of lawsuits Freedom From Religion group has brought forward.
___
Gazettefan- No, I would not be offended by another religions memorial on my property if it helped someone with the grieving process. It does not change how I personally feel, it does not force their views on me, does not physically hurt me, so why should it matter? People should be able to grieve anyway they need to w/out worrying about "offending" someone. I also would not be offended by other religions being represented on government or public property. I realize not everyone agrees with my religious views but that doesn't mean I can't be accepting of others. This world would be a much more peaceful place if we all just "accepted" rather than were "offended".

I personally find those crosses offensive. Such behavior is an excruciating contradiction of grief and and self-absorption.

Disappointed, so if a satan worshiper or a muslim worshiper died slamming into a tree next to your driveway, a satan symbol or a muslim symbol would be permitted in your yard, right? Your belief system makes as much sense as those two belief systems.

And, separation of church and state predates PC. Look it up.

Disappointed: Can you cite specific laws banning crosses at accident sites? I have difficulty believing that claim. A link to one state statute will do. Thanks.

I am worried about what is happening to our freedom because of needing to be "PC". There are many states where it is now against the law to leave a roadside cross at the site of a fatal car accident because it is on a state highway. Does putting a cross up to help someone deal with a tragedy hurt anyone? Offend anyone? I would not be offended, no matter the religion, about how someone chooses to remember a loved one. I am not offended by my tax dollars being used to teach Darwinism in school, so why should I be offended if a child wants to pray in school? No one was forcing the cheerleaders to hold up these signs against their will- they were doing it because they wanted to. They were not hurting anyone mentally or physically. "I'm offended" now translates to "I'm suing!!" Boo hoo.

If you want a statue of Mary on your lawn be my guest. If you want to have in god we trust engraved on the state capital building using my tax dollars - no way. If you want to have religious dogma inserted into the policy of my government first prove that your particular god is real.

Freedom OF religion- people are free to choose (or not choose) a religion and practice it freely

Freedom FROM religion- people are not free to practice their religion in a given place because it may offend others. . .it's the PC way things are going

Interesting Stat fromt he bible in regards to human kill counts:
God - over 2 Million.
Satan - 10, ten.
What gives christians? Could this possibly be true of an all loving god?

Disappointed, there's no difference at all. Freedom of religion does not mean that all people and all groups have to be religious. Therefore, freedom of religion also means freedom from religion

Funny. . .last time I checked we had Freedom OF religion, NOT Freedom FROM religion. . .big difference.

Kleej, this country was founded on democratic principles. Principles that allow the rights of the individual at the same time those same individuals form in groups to strive for the greatest good for the greatest number. This is never-ending. Our society is organic.

Your religious screed is ossified and were it allowed to flourish would only focus on absolute and oppressive conformity. All positive changes within the church over the centuries came from pressure outside of the absolute rule of crazy men and outside the deadend dogma of crazy scripture.

Kleej - the issue is that your god is not real. You can claim credit on behalf of your religion every time someone does something good or nice, but that went on long before your god and will after your god, if we survive as a species that is.

DiGriz, good idea. But as much as I like drinking, I tend not to do it in the day, especially in the morning. Drinking's great for the evenings. Maybe the Church of the Red Door could have evening services. If not, maybe I can make an exception. I'm sure the alcohol soaked believers at the church will greet us with tolerance.

Do I hear an Hallelujah?!

DiGriz! Open your eyes dude. I have never said this country was founded on Christianity! It was definitely founded on the PRINCIPLES of Christian doctrine. Why is it so hard for the anti-christs to accept that fact? If you're so against "the law" as it seems, don't bother following the speed limit next time....see what happens! Every law has a principle it's founded on. Just because I might be anti-COP doesn't mean the laws don't apply to me.

freeradical, prounion is mocking the pathological quote-postings of Kleej and some others.

prounion is dedicated to reasoning with the believers but the believers can't think of anything to say.

Kleej - the copy and pasted quotes from the forefathers that I posted in response to yours are not "real?" Can you provide some evidence of that or for that matter care to talk specifically about how our beliefs are "twisted?"

DiGriz...

...I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be proud to be able to buy you a drink upon your return.

I encourage all of you to read the case law on the BongHits4Jesus case in Alaska. The Supreme Court has already ruled in this matter which is why the school acted the way it did.

"God please bless my sports team, and no one else's."
Assuming these are your words, you have shown the capacity to contribute without copy/pasting a bunch of dead people words from days past. Use your own words! They have a much greater impact in this scenario. Plus,it's better to catch flak for something you say, as opposed to something you pasted someone else said, know what I mean?

ProUnion
Ever done any thinking of your own? I see like 8 or more posts by you, and all I see is other people's words, copy and pasted. I won't even read them, because why should I listen to what you have to say, when you aren't even saying it?
Garbage.

I think it's great that these girls are believers and strong in their faith...but that being said, in a public school there is no place for this.
+
For those of you who disagree, consider how you would feel if the quotes were taken from the Koran, and not from your particular brand of faith...

prounion...another incorrect statement. More and more people are relying on their own so called wisdom and don't have the humility to learn from others which is why this world is in the shape it's in. Lot's of professors these days and no students. Which leads me back to the most profound quote probably ever published by a very Godly man! "It is better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" ~ Abe Lincoln

I'm proud to "hide" behind the wise people's quotes (the real quote's) such as our forefathers. Better that than to hide behind gazettefan & prounion's....if that day comes when their quotes and twisted beliefs are the one's people are hiding behind, that would surely mean the people reading them will be the one's bonded in slavery. History would prove that to be true.

http://www.aclj.org/Issues/Resources/Doc...

http://antiwarrepublicans.com/foundingfa...
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http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?id=617...
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Copy and paste is easy, defending your position with logic is impossible unless it is a reflection of reality.

“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.” Susan B. Anthony, a Biography, 1988

“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.” Lincoln in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln

“He was an avowed and open infidel, and sometimes bordered on Atheism...He went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I ever heard.” John T. Stuart, Lincoln's first law partner

“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” George Washington Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

Benjamin Franklin (Founding Father, scientist, inventor, philosopher) - Deist

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” Benjamin Franklin Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”

“He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.”

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”

Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason, pp. 89:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all."

From The Age of Reason:
"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

From The Age of Reason:
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."

From The Age of Reason:
"What is it the Bible teaches us? -- rapine, cruelty, and murder."

From The Age of Reason:
"Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches."

From The Age of Reason:
"The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it -- not to terrify but to extirpate."

Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

Thomas Jefferson:
"In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you."

"Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

Thomas Jefferson:
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

From Thomas Jefferson's Bible:
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.'"

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

Additional quotes from John Adams:
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

"The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

A democracy is two wolves and a small lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Benjamin Franklin

Wow, I thought Kleej, billnewbie, and Acai would be relieved about the dumpage: that copying and pasting can take a lot out of a believer.

Hey, Kleej, billnewbie, and Acai, why don't you three apostles attend the Church of the Red Door tomorrow morning, then come back here and post some pithy quotes from the congregants -especially some quotes from the end of mass.

Prounion-awesome point. That's religion in general. God, take my side, SMITE the non-believers in an everlasting fiery hell!!!! God is love!
lmao =)

If you want free speech, Do it without you cheerleader uniform on. Kind of funny to wear poofy short skirts with underwear bottoms that get flashed while talking about christ anyways. Separation of school and religion. If this is a public school, it might be different. If you want to talk about god, make your own cheerleading squad, unassociated with the school and privately funded, to go to the school functions in tandem or instead of the school cheer leading squad. You can have what you want, just follow the simple rules. Take your jesus loving into your own hands, make your own squad, and show up when you would. You can get around this easily, instead of trying to fight the separation of church and school.

Keep reminding them, DiGriz. Maybe it will eventually sink in. By the way, the sequel to this column is here: http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2009/nov...

"All who think cannot but see there is a sanction like that of religion which binds us in partnership in the serious work of the world." ~ Ben Franklin

OK, I thought that was now old news. Your "Lincoln" post was the last one I saw, GFan. (Good poke, by the way.)

Bible bar.

Which article are you guys talking about?

I think you had the last post - yea I would have remembered that one, awesome. I am guessing that one did it, nice post I wonder how they would ahve responded.

These are the last two comments on the page I saved:

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gazettefan
Nov 6, 2009 at 9:43 a.m.
Suggest removal

Kleej and Acai, when Lincoln successfully endeavored to abolish slavery, he acted AGAINST christian scripture and Christ.

Then he was shot in the head by a christian.

prounion
Nov 6, 2009 at 9:22 a.m.
Suggest removal

19"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven." God.

This should allow for and easy way to prove us wrong. Go ahead.

What time was that? I saved the page up to my last post.

I think that one might be my fault, or at least my posts were some of the last to post. The christians were posting comments from the founding fathers that indicated that they had a belief in god. Just before it was shut down I posted a couple of quotes from god. And then it was gone. Maybe it just hit a certain number and it certainly wasn't going to stop so they dumped it before the comment count got so high that it stuck in the top ten discussions like Bible Camp is.

Holy smokes, what happened to the other one?!!!

I can't believe the oddballs weighing in on this issue. First, DiGriz, the Pilgrims came to get away from King George, not establish a colony for him! Secondly, no where does any constitutional document refer to lack of religion. The document and amendment in question were designed to keep the U.S. from being ruled like Italy, Germany, France and England at different times. When the church unduly influences government processes like the Pope forcing a King to rule a specific way or a government sanctioned church gets tax funds or is the sole religion recognized, the people as a whole are unfairly influenced. If the Church of England taxed its congregants and it was the only one recognized people began to realize that they were not represented. They came to the new world and began a country that was not ruled by a particular church. It was never intended that religion not be part of daily business, education, government dealings, etc....just that everyone not be held to or taxed by a single, particular religion or church body. So to deny the cheerleaders the right to demonstrate their own beliefs in a freetime activity when we encourage free independent thought is denying them basic rights. I don't believe what a Hindu, Jewish or Muslim cheerleader might want to say publically, but i won't deny them the right to say it. Why is it so threatening to you to see someone profess their faith. Are you so insecure in your own existance that you would deny someone else the right to profess their own convictions? What if someone donated the paper and paint involved? Why in recent years has the minority become the winner in so many cases? We are built upon majority rules.

krazeyesv
Oct 12, 2009 at 10:14 p.m.
Suggest removal werpknarly you say nail on the head you should say nailed to the cross for everyone. The cheerleaders are not hurting anyone, you know they keep trying to take prayer out of school but they can't because prayer is in our children, My girls pray and our blessed everyday. The cheerleaders are doing good so keep it up!!!!
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I may completely agree with you but what makes this country different and better than other countries is that we recognize diversity. For those who don't believe the same way we do, they have the right to attend a PUBLIC high school football game without Religion.
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What makes this country better is that we care about that, honor that and respect that. We aren't bullies who force our beliefs on others.

prounion, have you not seen the truth of the flying spagetti monster? maybe the Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe's arch rivals can cheer to be touched by his noodly appendages!

Maybe we should teach children how to think critically and weigh evidence in a rational manner at an earlier age - then we would not have this problem.
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Before you start spending my tax dollars on your imaginary sun god you could at least provide some evidence as to his existance.

krazeyesv, put your cross on the other shoulder and think about a having a few pom pons girls erect a minaret next to the stands to proclaim the will of allah.. how proud of them you would be. "freedom for all" means all.

werpknarly you say nail on the head you should say nailed to the cross for everyone. The cheerleaders are not hurting anyone, you know they keep trying to take prayer out of school but they can't because prayer is in our children, My girls pray and our blessed everyday. The cheerleaders are doing good so keep it up!!!!

Given your situation, this quote might hold special significance for you, DiGriz:

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." --John Adams, Treaty of Tripoli

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfa...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbrFn6qme...

DiGriz, I thought we weren't supposed to agree on these discussion boards. I guess I was wrong.

Good article, and I'm glad he points out that is perfectly fine for the girls to discuss religion on their own time. When you put on that uniform you are representing your school and you need to respect the decisoins your administration makes. Then Saturday morning you can talk about how you don't agree with their ideas :)

God please bless my sports team, and no one else's.

Nail on the head, founding fathers knew to well the dangers of mixing politics and religion. even in the early colones one could be put in stocks, fined or whiped for not showing up for church. Better yet, just google "religious war".