Your right momof5, life isn't fair. And I really can't begrudge companies for taking advantage of the system. But I can complain about the system and the corrupt, greedy politicians who put it in place. True fairness will never happen, but until this country starts using that moral compass again the inequities between the classes will just go on and on.
oh.. and I do love cherry Koolaide! ;)

Chad: some doctors?? Have you been drinking the kool-aid again? Haha!

I didn't mean to offend any GM'ers out there with my "isn't fair" scenarios. I 100% believe in what Chad was saying: you pay with your bodies. Just because maybe a teacher's job is more "important" doesn't mean anyone should begrudge another for making a decent buck. And, all of this bellyaching about GM's wages was alive and well waaaay before the bailout so please save that cop out! I start my employees out (with no experience) at $1.50 less than a CPS social worker starts out at--and they have a 4 year degree! My point is life isn't fair and really, I doubt many of us believe we are getting paid what we are worth.

Look at the new assistant principal at Craig thread...people are on there barking up a storm that his starting salary will be 92k AND he DOES have a degree (or 2 or 3....) It shouldn't matter where you work, or how much you get paid or how deserving you are of that wage. But, for many on these threads that is ALL that matters! That and this ill-conceived notion of what a GM worker is and how it isn't fair....as I stomp my feet, cross my arms and stick out my bottom lip!

I know many GM workers--both related and not. I can't think of many who truly feel they are better than the rest of us working folks or that they are high and mighty. I can't think of many who feel that GM "owes" them. The ones who do feel that way, have their own issues in their personal lives and having GM owe them or being better isn't anything new....that's how they are with everything! And, personally, I'm glad they are no longer part of the "GM family"!!!! There's bad apples in every bunch!

Finally, Minan, someone else who understands economics. Free trade is a joke on the American public. Pretty soon wages will be reversing or be stagnant (the same as NOT getting a raise) while this country is turned into a third world country to feed the greed of the uber rich. I have no qualms with fair trade, where other countries allow imports like we do, or have to follow the same environmental restrictions. Capitalism has some good ideas, but is based on man's moral obligation to their fellow man to work correctly. Morals are not part of the elite makeup, just $$$$$.

Plain and simple - the US auto industry reeks of corporate greed and organized corruption. If we can export some of that to China then I say SHIP IT!

In case you haven't figured it out, this is part of the gubmint's plan to break the union. Enjoy your China-made micro-car. Aren't you glad you voted for Obama?

Does this mean that GM will not be coming back to Janesville? I thought the door was still open?!

Good points, momo f5. Most people don't understand that , except for a few exceptions, businesses want to make the most profit. That means you pay the least you can to satisfy your employees. Now, you have to compete with local wages and if the work force is thin that matters too. Without GM jobs here, and high unemployment, you will not see wages go up in Rock County. The businesses hold all the cards now. All the people who griped about our wages can now settle down in their "poor me" worlds where they can be kings of the underpaid. Well, until they can find someone else to gripe about.

sarah, I understand, as my wife is a nurse too. I didn't say it was gravy work, just because you have an education, but even she said that factory work is rougher on the body. One difference is that on your job, you may have the chance to stop and catch your breath. On the line, you can not do that.
Personally, I find nursing a job that is more mentally tough on people. You get attached to patients, and some doctors don't give you the respect you deserve.

Skiddz - you forgot the local taxes I paid to help put your kids through school, the money spent for food and entertainment that helped local businesses, the Federal and state and soc security taxes we paid more into (sorry , we didn't have the tax accountants or leverage to substantially lower our tax base), or the extra charity expenditure we had because we believed in sharing with our communities. It's not like we kept all that money in a mason jar, quit trying to be so simplistic!

I do not work at GM or in any unionized place. But as I understand how unions work is they negotiate the terms of the contract with the company. BOTH agree on the terms. It is also my understanding the UAW workers, at least here in Janesville, have worked with the company. The UAW membership is asking GM as a company to also make sacrifices. I have worked in manufacturing and know the work is not for everyone. I have seen people work 2 hours, leave for break and never return. It is boring and takes a physical toll on your body to do the repetitive work. Every job is important and has value. Not everyone is capable of doing some jobs. There is enough blame to go around in the troubles facing GM and Chrysler. CEO's get everything they can. The workers do to. And think about it, who do you want to have a good attitude about their job? Someone looking at numbers or someone who makes sure the steering works in your car?

$40 an hour to put on a bumper? Crap! I feel a committee call coming on....to think that the majority of the workforce at GM was getting paid 2/3 that. Uh oh...cat's out of the bag now!

Why in the hell does it matter what people made in the 80s, 90s, etc..,?? People in this community are so hung up on what other people have and don't have compared to them it is well past the point of being sickening!

Sure, it isn't "fair" that a line worker MADE more than a new graduate RN....sure it isn't fair that a line worker MADE more than a teacher...but really, who decides what is fair and just? I work hard--just as hard as anyone else but yet, I make more than some of my neighbors and substaintially less than other neighbors. In a fair and perfect world, we'd all get paid the same or what WE feel we are worth. But, life isn't fair and it is far from perfect.

I don't agree with importing GM badged vehicles amidst 16 plants closing. I personally think that should have been some sort of clause in the bailout. Then again, no one from DC or Detroit asked me! Haha

OK with a average pay of $30 dollars a hour, after 15 years you are just shy of $1,000,000.00 you earned. I bet more then 75% of those Gm workers made $30bucks a hour....

This is not exactly in line with discussion of the story at hand, but for any of the posters on the subject of GM who have made it a point that the billions of taxpayer dollars given to GM were a loan and not a bailout, I would refer you to the following link:
http://www.reuters.com/article/mergersNe...
It appears that the government is considering forgiving the bulk of those loans, essentially converting them to a handout. I am sure that this can become a topic of discussion when the Gazette catches up with the news.

cookiedough, you cannot paint all GM workers with 1 brush. Many of us are hard workers, decent family people, who do save for rainy days. And your dad would not have turned down those benefits if they were available to him, why would anyone? And while they worked very hard back then, they still do not have it "easy" today. They put on more parts per job than back then and ergonomics is still a big hype work for plant managers. As said in the other post, we pay with our bodies and health on those jobs. Your dad's health was worth more than what he got paid for.

916WI - resale values were low because of all the discounts used by GM to flood the market. Not a good idea, but it seems maybe they see that now. I have no problems with people having free choice, but the fallacy that they are the quality kings and never have problems is just realistic. Did you know Toyota and Honda had more recalls each than GM in 2008? They are finding out that with more production, quality is even harder to control. I think GM quality has grown, and even surpassed Toyota in some segments, but I will not say they are all perfect. And that cannot be said for imports either, or do the mechanics just do oil changes at their dealerships?

marjoy - you are right, many people try to find joy in material things. But I look at an education as getting the benefit of less physical labor. Pay is only one benefit, and for anyone who has not worked a factory job you can never realize the price you end up paying working 30 years on a repetitive job like at GM. Knowing what I know now, having not trade your body for pay is a GREAT benefit the educated enjoy over laborers.

Chinese made GM cars being imported into the U.S. How dare GM do this and still shut down several U.S. factories. I would NEVER buy a car from China and GM loyalists will not either. Might as well close shop up now if that is what GM is going to do. As far as GM workers not getting X-mas bonuses and 50% of pay instead of almost full pay with job banks - too bad - they shouldn't anyways and not even get 1% of pay if not working. Nowadays, the GM workers get paid enough money to cover the loss of income for 1-3 months anyways. Back in the 50's thru the early 80's, people like my dad working at the GM plant for 34 long, hard years earned every penny they made since work was 10 times harder back then than what it is today. The workforce in the 80's and after that at GM became lazy and Unions were too greedy and demanding the world and this is part of why GM is going under. My dad even admitted a long time ago he would have been more than willing to have been paying into his health care account over the past 30+ years instead of having a handout for all those years. He worked 34 years of hard labor retiring in the late 80's due to health reasons and did NOT make over 22 bucks per hour after all those years. It was enough to live off of and support our family while only buying 3-4 used GM cars over the past 30+ years. He may have been the exception to the rule as far as GM employees were concerned, especially nowadays, but the current GM workers needed to learn a long time ago to save their money for a rainy day. Looks like the rainy day has come and will shortly be gone for good.

I agree with creatureinthefreezer about the greed of wall street. However greed doesnt discriminate between the CEO of a company or the average worker of that company. The very root of the problem is still GREED. It seems that politicians have the best intentions prior to taking their respective offices, but special interests certainly has a way of making those same elected officials change their attitudes on issues they campaigned on with such conviction. Once again, GREED has a way of destroying everything in its path. As crazy as people thought Ross Perot was, I think we can all agree he was absolutely dead on when he talked about the "huge sucking sound" we would all hear from Mexico. Maybe we should go to Mexico so that we can have jobs. How the American people didnt see this coming is beyond me. Big corporations in politicians pockets has to stop.

Regarding the flight of many skilled and unskilled manufacturing jobs out of Wisconsin and the United States. Blame can be shared by all for this current state of affairs. NAFTA signed into law by Clinton headed by Republican controlled Congress back in the 90's was a significant step in the wrong direction for American workers. The continuing push for lower cost goods by the likes of Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, Blains, etc and we the American consumer makes it almost impossible to produce these goods on our soil versus China, India, Mexico and even Canada. The Wall Street Greed for profits to satisfy the shareholders pushes CEO's towards foreign nations to produce the goods we want to buy. While at the same time these so called leaders of Industry take large bonus payments in return for cutting jobs and putting money to the bottom line. WTO (world trade organization) and our participation will keep the status quo. Frankly the horse is out of the barn and down the street and any hopes of turning the tide towards the days of old is next to impossible unless there is a real change in the American Consumer and Voter where accountability has to start. Especially now that we’re being hit from all sides and trying to make the devalued dollar stretch. Vote with your money and do not buy at these Big Box Retailers that put American manufacturers and smaller retailers out of business. Vote for change in the ballot box and require our representatives to fight for the old American dream of a stable good paying job. Regarding real jobs for Wisconsin this task needs to be first priority for Doyle and making Wisconsin a top 5 business friendly State will go a long way towards getting everyone jobs other than service sector employment. Waiting for the local companies to expand hiring will not fill the void of losing all that we have in the last 5 years.

Chad Vader.....Many of us "import loving geniuses" were once buyers of American cars. I had a couple of them in the 90's--there were a multitude of problems and then after I was faced with next to nothing as far as resale goes, I made the switch to Honda and, most recently, Toyota. I can honestly say I've never had any problems with my Japanese cars. I suspect for 99% of the foreign car buyers it's nothing personal against the employees of the Big 3--It's just we've become accustomed to maintenance free cars with great resale values....

Marjoy is completly right. I can look out my window and see 4 differnt peoples houses that are EXACTLY what Marjoy said. Thats why I don't feel bad for them when I wake up everyday an go to work. Quote from Marjoy "HOW SAD IS IT WHEN PEOPLE WHO INVEST THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS AND HUNDREDS OF HOURS IN AN EDUCATION CANT REALISTICALLY COMPETE WITH THE STANDARD OF LIVING THAT YOUR AVERAGE GM WORKER HAS MAINTAINED FOR DECADES?" What do you workers tell your kid that spends 80k on school and thousands of hours in class only to come out of school to only get a job that pays half of what you get. But instead of putting a bumper on for $40 bucks a hour they get $15 to do a job that took them years to be able to even come close to completing correctly. Thats not fair to even your own child, so thats why I call you all greedy and don't feel bad. Havea nice life on unemployment. I will make sure I keep up the hard work at my job so I can keep paying more taxes to support you. Even tho you havebeen employed for 15-20 years making 60-80k a year, which is $1,600,000 that you have made. And you still don't have enough saved up for a rainy day like this????

ITS VERY UNFORTUNATE THAT THINGS HAVE COME TO THIS FOR BOTH GM AND THE UAW. I GUESS ONE HAS TO LOOK NO FURTHER THAN REALIZING WHAT HUMAN NATURE CAN DO TO PEOPLE IN TIMES OF PROSPERITY. ONE WORD COMES TO MIND WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE SERIOUS SITUATION THAT FACES SO MANY FAMILIES IN OUR COMMUNITY AND SO MANY OTHER COMMUNITIES AS WELL. "GREED" WHEN HAVING A BIG BEAUTIFUL HOME WITH TWO NEW CARS IN THE GARAGE, MAYBE A NEW EXPENSIVE MOTORCYCLE OR BOAT(OR BOTH)ARE SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH TO KEEP PEOPLE CONTENT, MAYBE, JUST MAYBE ITS TIME TO LOOK WITHIN THEMSELVES TO FIND THE THE HAPPINESS THEY THOUGHT THOSE ""TOYS" WOULD BRING THEM. HOW SAD IS IT WHEN PEOPLE WHO INVEST THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS AND HUNDREDS OF HOURS IN AN EDUCATION CANT REALISTICALLY COMPETE WITH THE STANDARD OF LIVING THAT YOUR AVERAGE GM WORKER HAS MAINTAINED FOR DECADES? LETS BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES. WHEN CARS AND TRUCKS WERE SELLING LIKE HOTCAKES, MOST PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE THE LOAVES AND FISHES; IT WAS NEVER GOING TO END. WELL IT DID END, AND YOU DIDNT HAVE TO BE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO UNDERSTAND WHY IT COULDNT GO ON LIKE THAT FOREVER. CORPORATE GREED, UNION GREED, AND TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH THE JONES HAVE LED TO THIS TRAGEDY.LETS HOPE LESSONS HAVE BEEN LEARNED. IF WE DONT LEARN FROM THIS EXPERIENCE, WE ARE BOUND TO REPEAT THESE SAME MISTAKES.

That's right, long time gone. People don't see that they are just the lower class fighting over the crumbs that the true rich throw out to us. Instead of turning on the ungrateful, greedy rulers they turn on someone who happens to get a bigger crumb than they did. That is just short sighted stupidity!

Articles like this remind me of the students run over by Chinese tanks at Tiananmen Square 20 yeas ago, or Singapore forcing Google to block most of its internet content, or Japanese kamakazis dive bombing our Navy carriers....but good for you, you Haters of good paying jobs and American vehicles, you can espouse your half informed opinions, and never have to worry that the Secret Police will come and snatch you in the middle of the night.

Skiddz you are letting jealous fealings cloud your mind. As we will all find out the loss of good paying jobs will be our lose. 2/3,s of the spending in this country keeps this country moving and when everybody makes what you must make you can not wait to see how you live! When GM got into trouble was years ago when the did not want strikes and where the only game in town they gave the UAW everything and just raised the price of cars and hurt all of us. So don,t blame the works for that kind of poor business. I hope you have a good job in Janesville because there won,t be any coming and time soon. One more thing, watch your wallet because somebody is going to make up the taxes lost with all thoes jobs. Have a great life!

While you import loving geniuses write, can you explain how when jobs are sent overseas to factories with bad working conditions, low pay, add more pollution to the environment because in their country there are no laws like here in the US, and enforcement and oversight are a joke (remember to slop on that lead paint!) JUST so you can pay a cheaper price is even comparing apples to apples ??? If real free trade with restrictions like we have for our own companies were enforced elsewhere then America could compete. But you fog headed idiots just see you can get something cheap. The UAW has given back a lot the last year, compared to the bozos who run the company and our country. Tell me, how good is Toyota doing in Japan, paying all those workers out on a paid jobs bank? At least their country recognizes the importance of a manufacturing base to the countries economy.

gary - something like that. I am sure Webster is rolling in his grave.....

Is igonorant a form of stupidity combined with a bacterial STD?

Red - you nailed it. Without serious reform to our health care system, there is NO incentive for US employers to keep their operations in this country. It's time we take the power away from the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies. Until we do, we'll never get ahead.

Thanks for your sacrifices localboy - it's great!

JustAskMe - you are allowed those freedoms due to sacrifices of individuals like me. You won't have much freedom when America implodes due to the lack of self preservation ignored by igonorant socialists as yourself.

localboy does not understand the freedom of choice the rest of us enjoy. Too bad - it's great.

I understand that GM is doing what they need to do to save their company, but I do wonder how many people will never buy a GM vehicle again after they finish these negotiations and such...so many people's lives and feelings are being hurt.

Its so nice to see all the Gm workers Reaping what they sowed for themselfs... :) Funny part is now they will have to start the job search or college like they should have done when they got out of highschool, instead of becoming a depended robot for a company, that can't support themselfs without the big corparation always giving them a Handout. Good Luck Robots. But hopfully we can get more BW3's in town so you all can go apply for those food service jobs, and take the jobs away from our highschool students now...You guys are always about yourself arent you? And you wonder why things are they way the are today... Half wits

Red - you have some very valid points. You also need to keep in mind the cost that is levied on others for the unhealthy choices of some. Why should I have to pay for my neighbors choice of a pack of smokes a day, his big fat belly, and his never ending appetite for alcohol? Amercians have been living off the teat of high fructose corn syrup and laying on the couch, and now it is payback time. You can't have a nation of individuals as I described and not have the cost of health care stay the same. Add in mothers who take their children to the doctor when they have a runny nose and we have a problem.

I think a bigger problem within the union is that it fosters and feeds off of the us vs. them mentality. I honestly don't see how you can have such a division within the same company and still achieve long term success. I work for a company that sells a significant amount of product--the company has been successful and growing for years. The relationship between those who manage and those being managed is great. We all have a common goal and we all understand our place in achieving that goal. It's us going up against our competitors, not each other....I have no idea how the UAW and the Big 3 management lost their way, but it's apparent to me that they cannot co-exist together.......

One of the biggest factors contributing to the demise of middle class jobs is the outrageous cost of health care. Eliminate employer funder health care and companies will start hiring thousands of new employees. One of GM's biggest headaches is how to come up with the billions owed the UAW for retiree healthcare. We don't need to ship more and more jobs overseas. We need to fix the broken healthcare system and use some common sense approaches to employing millions of currently unemployed Americans. “Annual revenues for Mercy Health System have increased from $33 million in 1989 to $375 million now” That represents almost a 12 percent increase in revenue per year for 20 years. If wages were to keep pace with that increase then someone making $33 00 dollars an hour in 1989 would be making $375.00 an hour today. I wonder how much of that revenue came from employees and retirees of GM and GM’s suppliers and contractors. There are a couple of economic realities that are about to hit healthcare in the face. Number one: the Government will no longer tolerate outrageous increases in costs that are bleeding Medicare and will ultimately bankrupt Medicare. Two: employers can increasingly no longer afford health insurance and are dropping it. A large factor contributing to GM’s disastrous failure is the billions of dollars GM owes to the UAW retiree healthcare fund. GM will most likely get rid of this unaffordable obligation by filing bankruptcy. What kind of increases will Janesville’s healthcare providers be able to sustain without the GM Golden Goose and without continued blank checks from Uncle Sam. How long will it be before the healthcare providers line up in Washington for their bailout? If the healthcare industry thinks it’s business as usual then they are about to be in for a big surprise starting with not-for-profit healthcare administrators who are typically making six and seven figure salaries. When people have to pay for healthcare out of their own pockets you can believe every charge will be meticulously scrutinized. And how will healthcare providers collect when their clients have lost their job, their car, their house and their credit cards. The answer my friends is blowin’ in the wind. Hear it howl.

It stinks that they may have to move things over seas but the UAW made that bed, now they will have to sleep in it. Anyone with 1/2 a brain in their head knows the $30/hour is too much for that type of work when the competition is paying 1/2 down south. I'm sure it is even less over seas.

UAW has no one to complain to except themselves.

JustAskMe - you are not serious are you? I am not sure what you mean by "affordable", but you have a twisted view of American preservation.

hey just ask me they moved plants down to Mexico did the price of the trucks come down????NO!!!!

It sounds like GM is on the right path. If it wants to offer us an affordable car, it will have to move at least 90% of its assembly overseas. Bravo!

And just think the janesville plant will still be closed after all of this import stuff is done with.