The whole point I was making in my origional statement is that I think we could combine efforts with Beloit or Milton to maintain the arena. Beloit's season is determined by the weather and they would love to have an indoor arena. Milton,perhaps, may want to get a hockey program going with Janesville as a joint effort. We as a community don't have to foot the total bill. Perhaps a new facility owned by 2 communities would be the best bet because of costs. I was involved with the hockey program for years and years. I don't mean to rag on wealthy people to have your kid in hockey but hockey especially having kids in traveling hockey is EXPENSIVE! The ice arena is a money pit and Janesville residence, as a community with few people in hockey, should not have another burden on everyone at this time given the economy.
Right now we pay for the upkeep of too many parks. Yes it's the city of parks but is is also the city that tops unemployment in Wisconsin and the city that will take a very long time before the labor pay and industry tax base it once had comes back - if it ever does. What Janesville needs to look at is how to relieve the tax burden rather than add to it. Sometimes you need to slow up or take a step back and look at what your stepping in before you do it. Right now, Janesville has alot of "piles" to try to step over before it moves on. Why track it in our homes.

bereasonable...since you have taken the time to look up all of the Janesville Youth Hockey rosters and are able to make a statement about the income backgrounds of the players based on their names, are you ready to share your name so that we can make an assumption about your income?

breasonable: Great post! (Don't expect spark to wake up any time soon. I recommend not reading his or her posts, which are mostly negative, pointless rants). Thanks for staying focused on the common sense math of the current state of city finances.

The ice arena was sold a number of years ago to the city because the people who owned it could not keep up with the cost of repairs. I don't think Janesville needs any more costs added to the budget. Janesville needs to be cutting costs beacuse it will be a long time before Janesville has the tax base from industry to support any new high cost items. HELLO OUT THERE! IS ANYONE AWAKE! Obviously, SPARK IS NOT.
Have you ever had a kid in hockey. Well, unless you have some money to throw around, which most do not, IT IS EXPENSIVE! And yes look at the roster of names. These kids come from well to do families. Perhaps one of them should come forward and pay for the upkeep but as a taxpayer, I as well as many others, do not.
Spark, WAKE UP!

If I had a choice on spending my hard earned dollars on something for the community, I would make sure that it would bring hundreds of jobs and lots of revenue for the city and lots of enjoyment for our children, young and old. IE: waterpark/amusement park as an example. But as I said already, when the economy gets better. This would benefit more people than a Junior Hockey League would.

Hocky1, the cost of a new Ice arena would offset any jobs that it creates. Sure in might provide a couple dozen jobs for outside contractors but most of the people doing the construction will not even be from our community. I see this aspect of creating jobs really not coming into the equation. Someone said Oregon built a mew Ice arena for $3.5 But I think that seating is no where near 1,500 so I am guessing the city will have to borrow much more than $3.5 million to do a project like this. Something tells me the interest alone will cost the city more than it can bring in per year from profits. How much do utilities cost per month at the ice arena? I bet the fee's charged to user groups don't come near to covering costs to the city.

This is what Mr. Levitt said in a memo to the city council dated February 19, 2009 page 2 of 6 “I believe that we could involve user groups to a limited extent in the improvements. However, my current goal is to limit the improvements to less than $200,000. There are more than $ 1 Million in reasonable improvements that would benefit the facility and all user groups long-term. Unfortunately. I do not perceive that the current economy allows for that extent of improvements.” http://www.ci.janesville.wi.us/weblink7/...

One way to keep the economy going is spending money and creating jobs. Whether remodeling or building a new facility, it creates jobs for people that are putting food on the table for their families here in Janesville. Something like this requires labor, materials(and staff to make/produce the materials), staffing etc. If we put any forward projects/thinking on hold because we are watching the economy, we don't create jobs/work for people and that hurts the economy! I understand that we are all worried about loss of jobs and lack of money moving in the economy right now. I bet some of our Janesville businesses would value the work on a facility like this right now. I really think people need to keep their minds open and see another side of this project other than what they are choosing to see.

But, I don't think that anyone will really get it, till it hits home.

truthteller: I just watched the link you posted. Very sad. A real eye opener.

this is what we should be preparing for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnnOOo6tR... I sure would rather we be able to help people if things get this bad here than to build new ice arenas,bike tunnels and childrends museums. Right now we must get our priorities straight and the responsable thing to do is to put off all these projects for now and see how things develop in the economy.

State Unemployment Insurance Benefits.
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Each State administers a separate unemployment insurance program within guidelines established by Federal law
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In the majority of States, benefit funding is based solely on a tax imposed on employers. (Three (3) States require minimal employee contributions.)
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workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/unemploy/uifactsheet.asp

Unemployment is an insurance you pay for yourself in case you get laid off. Welfare is another issue. We have too many people that are taking advantage of the system with welfare. We need our government to start weeding out the bad seeds who use welfare and don't deserve it.

hey my taxes go towards paying unemployment and welfare...i think i will stop paying them since i am not recieving either one.

oops web linkhttp://northiowaoutlaws.wordpress.com/2009/02/10/expansion/

These are other communities talking about our town, this could be great.http://northiowaoutlaws.wordpress.com/2009/02/10/expansion/

There is already talk about this junior team coming to Janesville, what happens when they come to our city, yep they spend money. Hockey folk are very passionate about there sport and they travel well. Here are a couple links http://www.topekahockeytalk.com/?num=123...
http://rattler-radio.blogspot.com/2009/0...

hockey1: You speak of "invest"ing in the city. This is not an investment, it's an appropriation. But that's just semantics.
Another thing - the city spends on things you "may or may not use". The assumption seems to be that I oppose throwing more money at the ice arena because I personally don't use the ice arena. Not true. I oppose it out of principle. It's simply not a proper purpose of government. Let me give an example. I lived in a city that had a zoo. Although the city owned the zoo, its operations were supported entirely by user fees, zoo memberships, and donations. For years, I had a zoo membership, although some years went by where I didn't make it to the zoo. Why? Because I wanted to support the zoo! For myself, kids in general, and my community. But one year, a millage was passed to support zoo operations. I let my membership expire. I didn't want to pay twice for the same thing! So you see, out of principle I opposed using tax money to support a facility which I regularly used! The question I have asked repeatedly (which no one seems to want to answer) is - where does it all end? Where is the line that should not be crossed? Or should government "provide" absolutely everything, from the womb to the tomb?

kudos to all the positive thinkers, let's move forward. To all the other citizens, enjoy the bike path and parks that apparently make so much money (not sure how because they're free), but regardless, you won't hear me complaining about my taxes paying for them. It's all good!

Superdave...I agree that we should all continue to comment directly to the city, however for those others reading... if we bring in additional teams, and upgrade the arena and bring in more customers to use the hotels and restaraunts and stores, the city benefits. When you bought your home (I am assuming you are a homeowner), do you make upgrades or do you let it decay around you? If you put some money into it here and there, and make improvements to it, even if you own it for 30 years, you will make money when you sell it. However, if you don't replace anything or if you don't put anything into it, it will depreciate and lose value. You could own it and completely pay it off, but in 30 years, you couldn't sell it if you tried. Same is true with cities. If we don't invest in our city it will decay around us. That includes things in this city that I may use or I may not use. Not everything I pay for benefits myself personally. If this rink breaks beyond repair, families will move away from Janesville(and will).Families that pay taxes, buy products and eat in our restaraunts. Fiscally conservative,...fine with me...but you will be the first one complaining when this town goes even further down the tubes and you are left holding the bag. We need to be able to sell our city to attract businesses, consumers and residents! Prevent a Detroit or Flint! Educate yourselves Janesville! Think of new ideas and new ways of doing things! Challenge yourselves and your neighbors to try new ideas and approaches. That is what keeps a city/country strong.

Just take a look at the posts that superclueless has made, no positive thinking anywhere to be found.No good points made. This person has no soul.No use arguing with someone like this,the positive and forward thinkers have to move forward.Lets get this team here and have something to look forward to.

hockey1: Huh?!? Read my 10:17am post. What is this "elsewhere in the budget" nonsense? Either the place makes money or it does not. The article clearly states that we are to "brace ourselves" for a $1.5 Million outlay. Sounds to me like the place is an overall money loser, a.k.a. "a white elephant".

SuperDave has his opinion and comments, and is entitled to them. Instead of trying to change his mind, I would encourage everyone who supports the Ice Skating Center upgrades to focus your energy on our current city manager and council. Send them your thoughts via e-mail. They are the ones who need to hear your "electronic voices".

One more time. Everyone that uses the rink PAYS for it when they use it. Each time they use it. The rink BREAKS EVEN which means what the city pays is directly reimbursed BY THOSE WHO USE IT. Example: you pay 1.00 dollar to buy candy and sell the candy for 1.00 dollar, it costs you NOTHING. I am assuming that the tax dollars that are originally set aside for this are allocated elsewhere in the budget after the funds are collected from users of the rink. Maybe the funds are then used to attract new businesses, or to pay for improvements to bring in tourism, or maybe to pay for the repair of the street in front of your house? It is less like welfare and more like an operating budget.

SuperDave-Keep dodging the fact (and question for that matter) that you know taxpayer money go's to many things that many people don't use. But, because you don't use this particular facility, you don't want to pay taxes on it. Keep picking and choosing what Dave wants.

You're not worth it Superdave!!!

tom1cass2: Giving up that easily? LOL. No please, "educate" me some more. I need my narrow little mind expanded! But why is it that you don't address a single point that I make, and you never answer any of my questions? Oh wait, sorry, that was another question.

Superdave you just don't seem to get the big picture. Taxpayer money is used for alot of things not everyone uses. Its a fact of life. You'll never get it. I'm done trying to educate you. You are just too narrow minded. Good luck in your ventures to privatize everything!

tom1cass2: People keep saying that they pay to use the rink. Then why can't it be privatized and run at a profit? If the city would lose money without the rink, then why are we being told "residents should brace themselves to spend up to $1.5 million at the ice arena"? Why do we have to spend a nickel if the city is raking in all of these user fees? Where does all the money go, if it can't be used for repairs, and instead they go back to the public trough? If this place is not being operated in the black, then the difference has to come from somewhere, right? That means that all taxpayers are subsidizing the place, regardless of whether they use it or not. That is not fair to all those kids out there who do not use the rink. Lastly, my welfare analogy was to show how people get used to things that are given to them. Funny how bringing this up touches such a nerve. Those of us who are fiscally conservative and suggest an alternative to the status quo that the city quite obviously can no longer afford keep being told we are "whining and complaining" from the same people who have yet to give us a simple "thank you" for supporting the government ice arena for half a lifetime. I won't hold my breath for that nicety, but just for the record, you are welcome.

superclueless..."this means many are being taxed for the benefit of a few". Now thats the most pittiful statement. You and others with that thought process are people that just dont get how things work, get off the one way street people. No good points = childish games.Some narrowminded people think that if this does not directly effect them then everyone should suffer. This is the mentality we are trying to get rid of in this city. This would be another great opportunity lost for the city. Let'em play.

Superdave do not compare the people who use the rink to people on welfare. We as users of the rink pay for our use of it. And as Panama and others have said the city of Janesville would lose money if the rink no longer was around but you do not want to see that. The hockey clubs and figure skating clubs bring money to the city. The figure skating club also uses the rink for other community activities, like girl scouting events for example. To lose the rink would be a big loss for the city. The city does not let these groups use the rink for free we pay to use it therefore bringing money to the city. Beleive what you want but the ice rink is good for the city.

SuperDave- I know you're going to ignore my post, but I'm going to say it anyway. You are completely one-sided, can't see the big picture and are absolutely clueless and ignorant to anything anyone else is trying to drill in your thick skull about this matter. You know nothing about the program in this city and what it does. Go do your homework and quit your whining about taxes. It's pathetic. Shut it down, too bad? You're unreal.

PanamaRed: If you are "complaining" that the place will fold without throwing more tax money at it, that tells me that the market does not support this as a viable business. This means that the many are being taxed for the benefit of the few. That's just the economics of the situation. The city never should have built this elephant and it would not now have this problem. I do have sympathy for those that use the rink, they have come to depend on the tax money for their entertainment and recreation, in the same way that people on welfare come to depend on that check. When welfare needs to be cut, it hurts those that are dependent on it. But here we are - the facility exists, it needs repairs, people use it. That's why the only logical solution is privatization. And unfortunately if a buyer cannot be found (implying that the business is not viable), then and only then the city needs to shut it down. Too bad!

No, Super Dave, I am not kidding. Many of those complaining about the cost of remodeling the Ice Skating Center have not given thought to the cost of NOT making the necessary improvements. For the most part, there would be no youth hockey or figure skating in Janesville affecting hundreds of kids. You can’t depend on Mother Nature to consistently provide outdoor ice. Many adults use the facility as well. They too would drive elsewhere to skate and spend, not to mention the revenue lost from potential sales when other teams and parents travel here to participate in games and tournaments. Allowing the Ice Skating Center to fold would cost this city more than it would save, not only in revenue, but in quality of life. Literally countless hours have been put in by many outstanding volunteers over the past 30 years that has lead to the development of, arguably, one of the best youth hockey and figure skating programs in the state. Closing the Skating Center would set back those programs for years to come. The cost of remodeling averages out to be approx. $50,000 per year assuming the new system lasts another 30 years. That comes out to approx. $1,000 per week which would be covered by user fees. Yes, I know my example is very simplistic but I am not naïve. There is a way to make this happen and it is feasible. Being naïve is allowing this magnificent resource to “melt” away, costing Janesville much more than just money.

Oregon just opened their rink which cost $3.5million to build. it probably would have cost more had the community not come together to help make it happen. the architect donated his own time and didn't charge anything for drawing the plans, and the city donated the land. this is what needs to happen here.

we all need to help keep this community going.lashing out and whining about taxes isn't going to get you anywhere.apparently you are not short of money if you can afford the internet. or are you using the computer at the library that your tax dollars go to. do you know where it is? don't just sit there and wait for something to happen to you. go out and make it happen. the community needs to come together not just for the ice arena but for every thing going on here. what are you gonna do when they need to raise taxes to fix rockport pool?

truthteller-You can skip over my posts all you want. After reading your posts on this subject, I would love to know where you get your exaggerated figures from and unrealistic information. 10 million for a rink? In an earlier post you estimated the rink probably has cost over 40 million dollars during it's existence. You also stated the outdoor Traxler rink is a better option because it's cheaper. Are you aware that Traxler is an outdoor rink? That if the weather is bad, there is no ice? Are you also aware that up until this year, the "city of parks" couldn't even maintain this facility and now thanks to very generous volunteers it's back and running? Say what you want about my posts. At least I have the facts and I'm a realist. I have nothing against you or anyone and have no hard feelings.

Sarah-It's not nearly as important to me that a hockey team comes here as it is getting the ice arena updated before it can't run at all. The place is running on it's last leg. If some of these repairs don't happen in the next five years, it will be too late. The money is going to have to be spent regardless to keep it up. So if those of you that are against all of this are fine with money being dumped into an outdated place, that's fine. As the article states. I would still put money on it that if this waits till five years from now, the same folks will be against it. They will find another reason to hate the idea. I understand some of your concerns, but believe something needs to happen soon.

One more thing I forgot, the Jr Hockey team would be paying for their own ice time. And that money would be going right back to the city of Janesville.

For just a few it is going to bring teams from out of town to stay at our local hotels, eat at out restraunts and even possibly shop at our local shops. I call that bringing business to Janesvilles economy.

I too just skip over Sparks posts. He seems to live on these forums?

Is this kind of what the Ice Arena people have in mind? http://www.owensboroparks.org/wp-content...

lamonte: more personal attacks. Sad. Welcome to my list.

SaraB- great comments. I agree IF the economy recovers in a few years this really needs to be given some thought but until that time we just can't do it.

What people don't seem to understand or want to understand but by bringing in the Jr Hockey Team it will bring business to Janesville. And please people don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about because my club is working with the city and the other clubs to help bring this JR Hockey team to Janesville, so I do know what I am talking about. You may not agree with it and that is fine but I think people need to know a little more about it before they say anything.

superclueless...I'm pretty sure i learned to ignore what you call name calling in grade school.I didnt know you were such a softy must not be a hockey fan huh.I really think the more people complain about the little things the longer they take to get done, which means more wasted time at city hall. This is a city building and it should be taken care of. I'm sure everyone complained about taking care of the problems before and they got put off, now we get to deal with all the problems at once. Deal with it. Drop the puck!

I spend alot of time down at the ice arena and belong to one of the many clubs. About 3/4 of the people that skate and use the rink are NOT WEALTHY! They are average everyday people. (Middle class). I think some people need to get all their facts straight before they comment on certain things!

BELOIT IS AN OUTDOOR RINK. THAT WOULDN'T WORK. THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT HOCKEY AND WEALTHY PEOPLES KIDS. IT'S MORE THAN HOCKEY. WE SHOULD ELIMINATE THE BIKE PATH, THE POOLS AND ALL THE PARKS TOO. YOU PEOPLE DON'T GET IT. NEVERMIND. GOOD GOD.

People are out of work, janesville needs to be cutting costs. selling park land if needed and lessening the burden of the taxpayers. it would be stupid to spend the money at this time. perhaps we should think about a partnership with beloit or milton for costs. close the janesville ice arena and go in with beloit. all the taxpayers of janesville should not be burdened with making a few, mostly wealthy peoples kids happy.

SuperDave- Feel free to disagree - but please explain why you think it's okay for the government to pick winners and losers. For example, what is it about the bike path that makes it so important to the city vs. an ice arena? Sound familiar?

That's not spewing nonsense or attacking, I'm merely asking the same question you have. You can ignore me all you want, but my posts make just as much sense as yours.

lamonte: You resort to changing the subject, name calling and SHOUTING. If you continue to spew your hatred, I'll add you to my "ignore" list along with spark. This list contains people that I no longer read, because they post a lot and make little or no sense.
I have made my points (as have others) repeatedly, but you refuse to process the information. If you want to disagree, fine, but it's better to give your reasons than to just spew nonsense.

For the record - things I never said:
$1.50 is a burden
everyone is irresponsible with their money
everyone is out of a job
I just don't like paying taxes
And my personal favorite - I am not "interested" in the ice arena

The bottom line - it's not the government's responsibility to buy, build, maintain, operate, or spend precious time and effort on an ice arena. Just look how much time we've all spent commenting on the thing - at the same time we are paying people at City Hall to handle this mess! Privatization is the best option. Feel free to disagree - but please explain why you think it's okay for the government to pick winners and losers. For example, what is it about hockey that makes it so important to the city vs. jai alai or cricket (hint - the right answer is not that more people like hockey)? Or answer some of the other questions that we've posted regarding this issue, rather than just coming up with personal attacks and ridiculous accusations.

dkush21-I agree with some of that and can understand the crap part of the last years also.

What I meant by the more you make, the more you pay, is if you're rich or a big corp., expect to pay more in taxes than the middle class and the poor. Middle class are getting sick and tired of being dumped on. The big corporations can afford to pay millions in pay and bonuses, they should be paying their FAIR share in taxes, and not expect the middle class to. And yes, I did vote democrat. I guess I got tired of 8 years of crap.

dkush21- You're joking right? I'm the farthest thing from a democrat. Read my posts. I simply don't mind paying a little tax for something I feel is useful. My other comments clearly state I'm frustrated paying for all the other things that don't help our citizens and our community, but such is life. If you're complaining about taxes, why did you vote democrat? That's the democrat way. You just proved it with your the more you make the more you pay. I don't believe in hand me outs for working hard to get where I am. That's a whole different story and I don't want to battle about politics though.

You guys are still complaining about this??? GET A JOB

Some of you say that you don't like to pay taxes, and you try to compare it to the stimulus bill. Yet, you want to add coal to the fire when it comes to what you want. Instead of trying to passify your issues by adding more taxation to the taxpayers, why are you not trying to do something to stop all this taxation???

lamont: That $1.50 is growing to be alot more than you thought.

spark: You could have fooled me about not being a democrat. Funny, I voted democrat, but I am totally against all this taxation on foolishness. If it is spent on needs, then yes, I am all for it. And so you all know, I also believe in a flat tax. The more you make, the more you pay. No loopholes allowed.

superclueless...Now your showing your true colors, no good points so go for the grammer angle. Ha Ha Ha. Typical. Do us all a favor, if $1.50 is a burden then move to a smaller town. Remember not everyone is irresponsible with their money nor is everyone out of a job. Drop the puck, cant wait to enjoy a beer and some good hockey.

raystone- Most everyone understands the government, taxes and your complaints regarding that. Nobody enjoys paying taxes. Everyone would love to have their money and keep it. In reality however, in this day and age, that's not how it works. Do you think I want to pay for taxes or better yet, want my children to pay taxes for the auto industries errors, the banks errors and other large companies errors? Hell no! What is that doing for them or me? Now, do I mind paying a couple bucks for something my children or other children can actually enjoy and benefit from? Something for the community I live in? Hell no! That is the difference. Trust me, I get where you're coming from with the government issues, but that is unfortunately the way it go's and I'll be a long time gone before it changes. (fyi I'm not a democrat either.)

lamonte-Dave supports the bike trail because it's part of the transportation structure so he must ride his bike to work. No problem though, because I'm paying for it just like all the other citizens and I'm not complaining about it one bit. Nor am I going to run down to the bike path and grab some kid on his bike and tell him that if his parents had some parenting classes, they wouldn't have to ride their bikes to stay out of trouble. God forbid they may actually enjoy the exercise and activity.

Some here continue to characterize the desire to keep government small and minimize taxes as "whining and complaining". Is is whining to want to retain our constitutional rights to personal liberty ? Is it complaining to try to stop the ever growing tax burden that saps all of our wealth and carves away a little more of our liberty ? Do you understand the country was built on the principles of liberty, and when government takes an increasing amount of your money, it's eroding that principle of liberty ? You should want to keep your wealth, only you know how to spend it best to care for you and your children.

lamonte: Narrowmindedness seems to be your primary neural pathway. Grammatical note - look up the differences between "to", "too" and "two". It's "too" bad you want to break Janesville - I'm interested in keeping it a viable city. And the coup de gras - you actually mentioned making Janesville "a small business town". How about a small business that runs the ice arena? Big duh...

superdave- Your gang banging comment was one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read. You think that's the reason parents want and kids choose to play sports and participate in healthy activities? You are a joke my friend. Take parenting classes? Who the hell are you talking to about that? Sports keep kids healthy and teach discipline. The only crying and whining I'm hearing is from you and your how unfair the government and taxes, blah, blah, blah are. You think your the only one that understands that crap? It's called reality and you aren't going to change it so deal with it!!

superdave=clueless This is no different than the pools,bike trails, and all the other amenities the city has to offer. It's to bad your to narrowminded to realize that because this is not something you are interested in. It's time to break janesville of their bad habits/thinking and move forward with changing this city from a manufacturing town to a small business town.

lamonte: Those of us that point out that a government ice arena is an inappropriate use of tax money are very positive in trying to improve our community. The negative whiners and complainers (no capitalization neeeded) are those that insist that they must have an ice arena provided to them at taxpayer expense. "We have to have a place for the children, otherwise they will turn into gang-banging drug-using monsters wah wah waaaaah!" Perhaps it would be helpful for some of you to simply take a parenting class? Or if you really prefer socialism, a move to a more appropriate country might be best, such as Cuba, China or Iran.

spark... could not agree more. ATTENTION ALL COMPLAINERS AND WHINERS, it is your right to live where ever you want, if you are so passionate about this subject then run for city council and try to make a difference otherwise feel free to move to a different city, we dont like negative people hanging around our city. Mr. McCoshen is heavily involved with the development of hockey at all levels, this would be a huge mistake if this did not happen. I'm pretty sure oregon just built a rink for under 2 mil. There are many things the city could do to make the rink alot more profitable, like hold more tournaments/camps. A new rink would be great but a tough sell right now, however if we spent 230k for the upgrades and the cooling system broke down and cost 800k to fix, that would be over half way to a brand new rink with no worries of breakdowns. A new rink would be the best long term investment.

truthteller-You immediately laughed at the curling idea when it's another way to justify a rink and get some money back. Why? Because you don't like curling? That is the point to all of this. All you whiners and complainers don't like it so it's a dumb idea. I don't like some of the crap you probably use that I pay for. Get over yourselves. 10 million for a rink truthteller? You are crazy.

Here's another idea. For all of you that whine about the streets, the schools, taxes, the school board, the city council, on and on and on. Why don't you just pack up your stuff, and head on out? If you don't like here. Leave. You complaining about everything is having absolutely no positive effect on this community. It's sickening.

To keep my statement simple: More people use the ice arena than you think. Also, more people use that ice arena then the Senior Center, Dog Park, and a would be skatepark. Does the Senior Center make money? Wouldn't that make it a "white elaphant"? Does the Youth Sports Complex make money? Does Riverside Park make money? The ice arena is not a money making venture, but a service/activity the city provides.

a new ice arena will cost way more than 1.5 million. I bet the figure is over 10 million.

1.5 million cheap at half the price , that way the gangs would have some place to go .and bully the good kids away this is a win win situation .

Don't laugh at the curling notion although The Janesville curling club has been paying their own way in Janesville for over 40 years. Many municipalities in the US and Canada have done this. The refrigeration plant is used for both and the curlers more than pay there portion of utilities and capital charge. It can make the difference between affording a hockey rink or not.

PanamaRed: You forgot frisbee golf, cricket, and massage parlors. Actually, I am sure you were kidding, so let's leave it at that.

Curling?? you guy's must be living on another planet. This is just idiotic and getting more stupid all the time.

Without a doubt, Janesville needs an indoor ice skating center. It shouldn't be a question of if, but how, we make it work. In addition, they should incorporate a Curling venue with the facility. They also need ice for Curling and could use the same refrigeration system. I'm sure Hockey and Figure Skating organizations will contribute just as they have for the past 30+ years. This isn't about today, this is about our quality of life for the next 30+ years. Golf courses, bike paths, parks, pools, tennis and basketball courts, ball diamonds all contribute to make Janesville a great place to live and raise a family. The Ice Skating Center, with effective management, CAN help generate revenue, and area businesses will benefit as well. While I believe the city could have provided better management over the years, I also believe they are currently working hard to increase use of the facility. Whether or not Janesville brings in a Junior "A" hockey team, the bottom line is, Janesville needs an Ice Skating Center.

raystone: You're right. We are being told to use cash and not credit cards. I only think it's feasible that our government should do the same. If we have the money to use on something useful, then go ahead. When there is no money, don't spend. But what is good for the goose, is not good for the gander. I hope I said that right!

dkush21 - you're only half right. When times are good, governments should sock away the excess or reduce taxes to allow us to save more, you SAVE. Across the country, Dems, Reps, citizens were borrowing and spending in good times. And, here we are.

shdow5: Thank you for your comment! That is what I have been trying to get across, also. When money is tight, you hold on to what little you have. As times get better, you can let loose some with the purse strings.

Talked to the bank today and they said they do not care if I go to a hockey game but if I miss my house payments they WILL (guaranteed) take my house away. Jobs will insure that don't happen but a Hockey Arena will not. That is a fact. Don't like it? neither do I but my home and family come way ahead of some money pit venture that at best is a high risk gamble.You want to gamble go to a casino but DO NOT gamble with the tax payers money.For a small percentage of the people they have not felt the effects of the recession as the rest have. We are not choosing what luxuries we can go without, we have to decide do we pay the bill or eat? If we put in gas today we will have to skip 5 meals to accomidate it. If You are not living like that then you should be on your knees thanking God. Wait until the economy is better then we too will support such luxuries as a hockey team but not now. We are busy trying to survive here.

I'm not trying to argue or cause this huge drama between all of us. I understand your point of wanting things private, but than that go's for everything. It's not what you want, I want, etc., etc. That isn't going to happen, so that's why I'm being realistic about it. If a hockey team doesn't come to Janesville, so be it. I can live with that. But in no way, shape or form, is it fair for the ice arena to go down the toilet because this city was to lazy and dumb to do the necessary upgrades when they should have been done. Read the story. Even they admitted it went too long. Fix the damn problem that you created.

SuperDave- Morally defeated? I'm the farthest thing from it. I have a good job, I love this city and I want to see it grow. I want things that are best for our youth (even if they don't use it, including my own kid). I whine and complain when someone shows me a better way? Show me a better way because your way is not realistic. Taxes, Really Dave? You're not going to pay taxes on things that aren't going to help you whatsoever? Wow, you must be living in a different Country. According to you, you support the bike path because it's part of the transportation. Do you use this to get to work Dave? You see, you're no different. You're choosing what you think is beneficial and what you think is ok to pay taxes on. That is my point. How are you any different.

spark: Your arguments are specious at best. You pay taxes for things you don't use. Okay. Then you won't mind if we increase your taxes for things that only SuperDave wants. Like let's say a new house and car. Thanks, spark!
Our views are not "realistic". Really? Why not? They seem to be firmly grounded in reality to me.
"The new government officials that everyone voted in are going to rake you over the coals like you've never seen". Everyone? Not me. And even so, what are we supposed to do, just keep our mouths shut and tolerate whatever the gubmint wants to do? Is this a true oligarchy now?
You sound like a morally defeated, beaten down soul. Too bad - you do seem to have a few good thoughts from time to time. But you whine and complain when someone shows you a better way than the status quo. Think about what you're saying...for now, I am adding you to my "ignore" list.

At this point in time and the economy the way it is, I am willing to put my tax money to needs, not wants. And you know what's funny?...I have been reading some other posts from some of you here on your views on taxes. Very contradicting, when it comes to something YOU want.

On behalf of our children, I would like to see the ice arena remodeled so the rink can stay here in town. Children need a place to have fun and be with friends in a positive environment. The open skate sessions, figure skating club and youth hockey programs are excellent examples.Instead of focusing on the negative and the tough economy lets think beyond that, and into our children's future. There are other ways to get funding for this besides raising taxes. Maybe the youth hockey and figure skating programs can team up with local communites on being a part of their program and get subsidies from those cities, there can be fundraisers by the people who use it, the price of open skate and skate rentals can be raised slightly. There are other ways to accomplish the goal.

dkush are you willing to let your taxes go for the youth sports complex and the baseball diamonds?

If you're willing to put your taxes toward this, then go for it! I am not.

dkush21-You and others don't get it. Forget it. This will go around and around and around forever. Like I said, your tax dollars are being wasted on way bigger things that have no positive effect on this community. I'm willing to pay taxes for things that will better the place I live in. Enough said.

spark: Did you ever think that if we didn't have to pay taxes for so many pet projects, maybe we could afford to support our small businesses instead of spending money at Walmart? Since we have to dish out our tax money for wants, we can only afford Walmart! Some of you just don't get it. You all should get together and raise the money for your own wants!

raystone- I would agree with all of that.

I agree cappyman. This habit of putting off of the repair of the ice field is comparable to the school districts computer system. It is the "worry about the short term" only theory of management that is pervasive in our country whether business, politics or personal. No one wants to plan for the future they want it now. Businesses worry about this quarters and fiscal years profit without ever planning for the long term (see GM). Governments want to spend to 110% every year and worry about outdated computer systems, facilities and roads "next year". It will be the ruin of us all.

spark- you and I probably agree on way more than we disagree on. We both support locally owned businesses, dislike Walmart. We probably both are trying to preserve our environment, want people, especially children, to be healthy and happy, and try to practice energy conservation. We just differ on how big we want our government. To me, government didn't make this country great, people did.

We just can't have a hockey team here. It simply costs too much. Why is there even a debate? Any city in the area could build a new arena and have a hockey team. Why are we so hell bent on getting one- because we USED to have an ice arena? What's that got to do with anything? We essentially do not have one now, so just forget about it. Let some other city invest $1,000,000 - $1,500,000 to build one for a measly return that will start showing a profit in another 30 years- if upkeep doesn't eat up profits along the way.

And just one other thing. My point about Walmart, etc was geared towards Super Daves comments about how private businesses bring people and money into this town. I showed my hand in this with my comment about Walmart and chain restaurants because I'm one of the ones that tried to SUPPORT the private smaller businesses while others didn't. I hate Walmart and everything it stands for and what's it's done to businesses in this town. If people are going to sit here and whine about the lack of jobs and the economy and complain about spending money on things they think we don't need, I ask that you look at the big picture of where you are spending your dollars. Just because you're saving a dollar, doesn't mean you aren't causing harm.

raystone- I'm a realist. And while I agree with some of what you and Super Dave say about the Government, I know things won't change that way. That being said, I deal with the cards that are dealt. Rather than complaining and moaning about things (my life is too short) I try and accept and adapt. It's not always fun, but like I've said before, I pay for a lot of things I don't use or want, but life go's on. I listen to some posts on here saying they accept the bike path, etc. I don't use the bike path. Do I thinks it's great to have? Absolutely. And it brings in no money to the community because it cost's nothing to use it. We're still the ones paying for though. So let's be realistic. Just like what many of you are saying to the ones that support this, you also can't pick and choose what you want.

Spark, you showed your hand with this..."Lived here my whole life and seen some great private businesses try and make it only to not be supported by the same crowd." and this "....because the mentality in this town is to buy everything at Walmart and go out to eat at chain restaurants".
-
You are expecting all of us to pay for what the few want by means of government and our tax money. It's the very definition of pet projects. That's why free market solutions keep an economy strong in the long run. When private capital investment is used, we all get to make the choice where to spend our money. If a business (or sports arena) survives, great. If not, that money was best spent elsewhere.
-
Our entire country would be still be financially strong if our elected public servants had stuck to these free market principles. A servant government wasn't designed to take of our needs, but rather protects our safety and liberty to allow us to take care of ourselves.

typical Janesville. do nothing until it is to far gone and needs to be replaced. there is no strategy for this town. they just wander aimlessly through project after project with no real goal. downtown is a joke, do we need another consignment shop? until downtown janesville is dealt with this city is lost. find it , fix it and move to the next project.

SuperDave-You are seriously living in a dream world if you think all of these things in the NATION are going to be privately run and owned. Do you think Janesville is the only one that has control outside of a private sanction for all these PUBLIC facilities? Let's be realistic here. Pet projects? I don't call having nice public facilities that the citizens of a community can enjoy pet projects. Facilities that give the citizens something to do so they want to stay here. Some people actually spend money supporting the community in their spare time. What World are you living in? You people are still living in a dream. GM is gone folks. Yes, it sucks. But we're going to have to put our heads together to better this community and crying about everything isn't going to do a damn thing. I would like jobs here just like everyone else. Private business draws people into this city? You mean the ones that actually stay open and people actually support? Which is very few because the mentality in this town is to buy everything at Walmart and go out to eat at chain restaurants? Lived here my whole life and seen some great private businesses try and make it only to not be supported by the same crowd. It's really sad. You don't want to pay a lot of taxes? I got news for you. The new government officials that everyone voted in are going to rake you over the coals like you've never seen.

yada, shadow5: Right on! momsrock is totally clueless. She said: "It's okay, we don't need a new hockey league, ice rink, new pool, or anything else that would draw families and businesses to our community". (This was sarcasm). I ask, why can't we have ALL of those things and more? Privately owned, of course - this is America. Go ahead, momsrock, start whatever business you want. WHO IS STOPPING YOU? But leave the rest of us out of it. You have no right to abscond from your neighbors for your pet projects. Private business already does, always has, and will continue to draw people into the city. This is what REALLY supports our families and our city. It's called freedom. Freedom to pursue our goals and dreams. We don't need the government picking the winners and losers. Have a great day, assuming you have anything left after paying your taxes.

Shdow5 - Excellent comment! I agree that we need to take a closer look at our priorities. The local church that I attend continues to help many with food, clothing, homeless shelter for men, and other community needs. Many of our area churches, Echo, and other organizations are doing the same. Tent cities are showing up in many locations in the U.S. One example is just outside of Sacramento, CA 1200 people are living in a growing tent community. Jobless rates and foreclosure are up all over due to the economic crisis. I love hockey, but would like to see us wait on a team and not invest more money on repairs and/or a new rink.

So it's ok for all of you against it to sit here and spill all your theories on why this shouldn't happen, but as soon as someone like momsrock says something to support it, you jump down here throat. The only narrow minded ones are those of you that complain about everything. That just proved it. If you lost your job, I'm sorry. I really am. But this city has always run on narrow minded philosophy and look where it's gotten us.
There is still people working and willing to spend money. Yep, life isn't fair and I don't want to pay for many things I don't use either, but I do and I don't complain about it. Get used to it. You're going to be paying for things that are unimaginable in a few years to come.

Ethonalstinks you are the one who is scary and sad. This will bring jobs and also help bring business to our city. Momsrock is not the only parent who will take her kids elsewhere there are alot of people that will take there kids and money to a different city, and you can't tell me that taking their money to another city will hurt Janesville's economy.

momsrock- it's time to put a side the me,me and more me and the I want,I want attitude and realize a lot of Janesville people are hurting financially right now and it's about to get a whole lot worse for them. Who knows even you could lose your job and be in the same boat soon..

I never cease to be amazed by the narrowmindedness of those that live in this town. It's okay, we don't need a new hockey league, ice rink, new pool, or anything else that would draw families and businesses to our community. Good thing we have a multi-million dollar road to nowhere we can drive on though...the hockey league, potential new families and businesses will continue to go elsewhere as well-.-why would they want to come here????? I guess I will continue to take my kids out of town and spend my money there to swim because it is safe and clean, and when our rink closes I will take all my kids elsewhere and pay that community for the priviledge of skating there as well. So be it. You people scare me.

The fastest growing thing in Janesville is the line at Echo, Salvation Army, Second Harvest and Our Community Churches and none of them have a cook book on how to prepare Hockey Pucks for Dinner. really people where are your priorities. Jobs first then when the economy is better we can all go play hockey.

I think what this city needs to do is create a sports complex and new fairgrounds all in one area that is EASILY accessible to out of towners.

This city needs to have a venue for sports tournaments and concerts. Something to bring tax revenue in as well as customers to local businesses.

Mark my words if this city doesnt do anything to increase its tax revenue were going to get more than teachers laid off. Youre going to see basic services have cutbacks as well as police and firemen lay offs.

They need to make a sports complex like Rockford has off of I-90/Riverside. Just put a hockey rink in it up here. The economic boost they get from the Watermelon Soccer Tournament is pretty good. The restaurants and hotels are at capacity in the area for a good portion of a week. Thats tax money and increase profits for local businesses to survive.

Thanks to all of you who understand that we are in one of the worst times since the depression. Some people are in denial!

I will post this again for those of you who didn't get it from another post and you people who like to pay taxes:

The Tax Poem

Tax his land,
Tax his bed,
Tax the table
At which he's fed.

Tax his tractor,
Tax his mule,
Teach him taxes
Are the rule.

Tax his work,
Tax his pay,
He works for
peanuts Anyway!

Tax his cow,
Tax his goat,
Tax his pants,
Tax his coat.

Tax his ties,
Tax his shirt,
Tax his work,
Tax his dirt.

Tax his tobacco,
Tax his drink,
Tax him if he
Tries to think.

Tax his cigars,
Tax his beers,
If he cries
Tax his tears.

Tax his car,
Tax his gas,
Find other ways
To tax his ass.

Tax all he has
Then let him know
That you won't be done
Till he has no dough.

When he screams and hollers,
Then tax him some more,
Tax him till He's good and sore.

Then tax his coffin,
Tax his grave,
Tax the sod in
Which he's laid.

Put these words Upon his tomb,
Taxes drove me to my doom...

When he's gone, Do not relax,
Its time to apply The inheritance tax.

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income tax
Dog License Tax
Excise Taxes
Federal Income Tax
FederalUnemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (44.75 cents per gallon)
Gross Receipts Tax
Hunting LicenseTax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties
(tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Personal Property Tax
PropertyTax
Real Estate Tax
Service Charge Tax
Social Security Tax
Road UsageTax
Sales Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
School Tax
State IncomeTax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal ExciseTax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage SurchargeTax
Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax
Telephone Stateand Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Taxes
VehicleLicense Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?

Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago,
and our nation was the most prosperous in the world.

We had Absolutely no national debt,
had the largest middle class in the world,
and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What in the hell happened? Can you spell politicians?
And I still have to press 1 for English!?
I hope this goes around THE USA atleast 100 times!!!!!
YOU can help it get there!!!!

GOAHEAD - - - BE AN AMERICAN!!!!!!

I think this money should not be spent at this time- for a new arena or for locker rooms and a bigger parking lot. We are in the beginning of maybe the worst econmic times in our country's history or mostly likely the worst the whole world has ever seen. I would rather see this money go to help those that can't pay a water bill because they lost their job and the unemployment pay has run out or a food pantry for those that can't feed their families- there will be a lot of these people in Janesville soon.

This will be my last comment on this issue...I think. We can always quibble over how much spending on "public amenities" (to coin a phrase), is too much. I support public parks (open spaces that are not privately developed). I support bike trails, they are transportation infrastructure as well as recreation. Swimming pools are borderline in my mind. But c'mon, an ice arena at public expense?? This blurs the separation between the ridiculous and the sublime. It is just too far "out there" in the world of extreme public spending to consider as a reasonable use of taxpayer dollars. If you support the government ice arena, this begs the question - what wouldn't you support? A public ski lodge? Mini-golf? Massage parlor? Spa? Resort? Country club? Segway lessons? Tae Kwon Do? Skiboarding? Chess/Checkers/Bridge/Par-Cheesi Tournaments? How about stripper pole workouts for out-of-shape housewifes? Isn't that "recreation" too? What's the criteria you use to decide what's appropriate? OF COURSE we "want it all", and of course we ALL pay for it. Losing your house? Don't just blame the mortgage company...of course you can always go to the ice arena to warm up.

raystone-If any of those items were privately owned in this town, they'd run out of business because the same people that wanted it that way would never go spend any money regardless. You'll need a wagon because of all the tight wads. It was the same way before the economy took a crap here. By the way, according to many people that support our new government, we're in for "change". Remember? Get used to the spending. I'd rather feel like I'm doing something good for my own community.

Blackhawk Lake park in Highland is one of the nicest recreation areas in WI. It's always clean, safe, well manicured, and it's privately owned. It's an example of the free market always having a better solution than government, in the long run. BTW, if the government (local and fed) doesn't stop spending outside of its' scope , you'll need a horse to navigate the decayed roads in town.

Let's just not limit the idea of profitability to just the Ice Arena. Palmer, Riverside, Traxler and Lustig Parks certainly show no positive cash flow. Baseball and soccer fields dotting the school yards are not fiscally sound. Let's just shut them all down and save the money. Perhaps then we should apply for more stimulus funds to handle the inrease in crime that will result when we take away opportunities for area youth to do something productive.

So Raystone, according to you and others, we should then eliminate the bike paths, the parks and all the other items that the public uses and pays for and just stick to roads and water. Let me go fire up my horse drawn wagon so I can gallop through town. There will be nobody here to use your roads.

The role of local government is to provide security & safety, roads, water & sewer. It's role (through the taxpayer) is not to provide entertainment or sports arenas. If it were, the city should own a bowling alley, or a movie theater. A much larger percentage of the population could use those facilities.

SuperDave-No, I got your point and I don't think any of it should be privatized. It's just typical Janesville style. People complained about a fee to Rotary Gardens too. They want it all, but don't want to pay for any of it.

spark: You missed my point! And "some" are always fine with paying more taxes for this or that, but that doesn't make it right.
hockey1: It would still bring more economic activity into the community if privatized.

hockey1-you are correct. I saw a bunch of them out Sat. night. Some people just don't get it, though. Too worried about themselves and can't look at the big picture. Oh well.

Every private person (no matter whether open skating, figure skating or hockey)that goes to the ice arena pays a fee. Each and every time. No exceptions. This way, private people who are utilizing a public facility ARE paying for the opportunity to use it. Those of you that DON'T go, don't pay to use it. Makes sense then, that they would break even using private individuals to pay to publically run it. Am I off base? It is already a joint public/private venture.

what does each person pay each time they use the bikepath?

nowaydog, what do kids pay to use the skatepark?

An example of this rink bringing money into our community. This last weekend they held a state tournament where teams came from all over the state and stayed in Janesville hotels for two nights and ate breakfast, lunch and dinner at local businesses. They spent money at our stores and gas at our gas stations. I think some citizens don't understand how things like this impact the community. Every weekend this rink has teams come from all over the state to play hockey, figure skate or free skate. They buy meals and gas and products from our local businesses. This rink BRINGS money to the community in MANY ways. We need to bring in MORE consumers Janesville.

SuperDave-I think you missed his point. He doesn't mind paying the taxes and is saying according to you, it all should be privatized. Not one way or the other. Some of us are fine with paying taxes for these types of things.

tom1cass2: I agree also. You are right - close down (or better yet, privatize) the whole lot of 'em. The ice arena just happens to be in the news right now because it's such a horrible white elephant.

..and I don't mind paying the taxes for any of it. It's for a good cause.

tom1cass2-Thank you for making my point. I agree 100%.

I pay taxes for things that my kids aren't involved in like the baseball diamonds, the youth sports complex and I don't complain and say close it down. Why should kids who play hockey or figure skate be any different than the kids who play football, baseball or basketball they deserve to have a place to do it at. They city pays for the sports complex and the baseball diamonds I think they should also be privatized by the way you look at it. Whats fair is fair.

fyi-I wasn't trying to start a political debate with that last comment. I just find it ironic that so many people in this town complain about taxes when they can't even see the big picture of how badly they're being screwed on a national level for things that will never benefit the growth and well being of their very own community.

SuperDave-No, all the other kids will have to fight for what they want too, due to the mentality of most citizens in this community. The skate park, the new baseball diamonds, etc. this ice arena. I hope for your sake and dreams (low taxes), you didn't vote for Doyle or Obama.

frogg88 said "Has anyone ever stopped to thin about the kids involved in all this????"
YES! I'm not advocating closing the arena, just privatizing it. And what about the kids who DON'T use it, what are they, chopped liver? Why should their parents be forced to pay for the OTHER kids' activities?
"What about their sport they have chose to play.
It's not like they can go to a gym, or a baseball field someplace else. This is something we NEED people".
Really? You have a strange conception of NEED. This is something you WANT.
"It sure is funny how the past few years when the Bluebirds went to state and they brought thousands of people to watch them but now we are getting all these negative people wanting to clse the arena and not allow something that will fulfill their dreams".
I'm very positive, thank you. And again I am not saying "clse" the arena, I am saying it should be privatized. I have a lot of dreams, myself. I dream of a world where the government doesn't run almost everything. I dream of a world where taxes are low, where parents have the chance to send their kids to any activity they want, where people can start small businesses without competing with the deep pockets of their own government. What about my dreams, frogg88?

SuperDave - you got it right. Also, in 6 months to a year, as this national and local economy continues to collapse, we'll be wondering how to pay for fire, police, and garbage pickup. We'll all have a good laugh at how we thought taxpayers should pay for an ice rink, or a children's museum, or ...

tom1cass2 said "Superdave it isn't just the city that uses the ice rink..."
Not what I said, and completely immaterial.
"...Have you ever been down there to see how many people really use it. I was there on a friday night and they had to turn people away..."
Like many (most?) people, I have never set foot in the place.
"Just because you feel it is a waste doesn't mean it is".
And just because you feel it's not a waste doesn't mean it isn't! What, are we back in fifth grade again?
"Come down sometime to see how many kids take skating lessons from Polar Express. It is more than what you think or think you know".
Sounds to me like it's a great opportunity for a private party to go after. If demand is as great as you say it is, there should be no problem for a private business to take the place over and turn a profit. If the demand is not there, well then I rest my case - the city shouldn't be in the ice arena business.
Either it's a viable business and should be private, or it's not a viable business and it's a misappropriation of tax money.

Has anyone ever stopped to thin about the kids involved in all this????
What about their sport they have chose to play.
It's not like they can go to a gym, or a baseball field someplace else. This is something we NEED people. It sure is funny how the past few years when the Bluebirds went to state and they brought thousands of people to watch them but now we are getting all these negative people wanting to clse the arena and not allow something that will fulfill their dreams.

If they want a ice rink badly and the one we have is in need of repairs why dont the supporters start raising money for it and see how it goes like the skate boarding park. That way who ever uses it wouldn't mind raising money for it, and support your local hockey if you choose.

Superdave it isn't just the city that uses the ice rink the local high schools also use it. There is a high school hockey team. Momrocks is right. Have you ever been down there to see how many people really use it. I was there on a friday night and they had to turn people away because they ran out of skates thats how many people that use it, and that doesn't include the kids that were skating that had their own skates. Just because you feel it is a waste doesn't mean it is. Come down sometime to see how many kids take skating lessons from Polar Express. It is more than what you think or think you know.

momsrock said "If we want people back in this city, we need to start investing in this city".
Who is stopping you from investing in the city??? Oh wait - you mean having the government tax your neighbors and spend on your favorite projects. That's not "investment", that's taxing and spending. I know that Clinton started (mis)using that term, but I don't accept it. An investment can only be made by the owner of the capital - anything else is an appropriation.

rabbit49: Because it's not the job of government to provide ice rinks to the minority that use them. Parks are primarily open space, meaning areas that are not developed, that's a whole 'nother discussion. Look at it this way - what if I was on City Council and my daughter played jai alai? If I could enlist a small cadre of jai alai players and fans to support me, is it the government's job to build a jai alai facility? Most of the same arguments that ice rink supporters use would apply here. In a nutshell - where does it end? Or because one sport is popular (e.g. hockey), should a majority be able to vote to spend money on their favorite project, at the expense of everyone?

Right-on opps,LOL No just kiddin, The city should ask the state for some stimilus money on this prodject, it will help create jobs not a lot but some.

Super Dave- why can't the city provide an ice rink? They provide parks, and lots of them. Parks generate no revenue, and I'm certain cost the tax payers way more than the small amount of money the rink costs annually. Why is it that small communities like McFarland, Verona, Sun Prairie, Monroe, and Stoughton, to name a few, can have ice rinks AND maintain them better? I agree with Momsrock, if we invest nothing, we can expect nothing. I also agree that the Gazette loosely construct facts to create anger, controversy, and negativity.....probably because that's what people have come to expect.

Way to go momsrock - you rock!!!!! I totatlly agree with everything you said, couldn't of said it better.

momsrock- Well said and I couldn't agree with you more.

I was at the ice rink this weekend for the WAHA State Tournament. I highly suggest that to many of you writing on this blog stop by and actually see what is going on down there before your next posting. What a great opportunity to see what is really going on down at the rink. People from all over the state were here, in Janesville, having a great time. That rink brought in alot of money to this city over the weekend through hotel room stays, restaurants, mall purchases, etc. To say that it does nothing for this city is foolish. This weekend was proof of that, just like any other weekend during hockey season when teams from all over our region travel to play at the rink, just like Janesville teams travel to play them. I also saw, alot of people working hard to give people a great impression of this city. Which was difficult considering the roof was leaking and the freon alarm was going off during the last game. I can't believe that I have yet to read anything positive about hockey or figure skating in the Gazette. All I have ever read is negative, including the comments on this blog. Kids staying out of trouble and on the right path in life ultimately makes this a great city and costs less money than incarcerating them.

I am saddened to read some of the comments on this blog, such as only a few people use the rink or why should we pay for it...If you have ever attended a Bluebird Game or open skate, you would never say there are only a few people there. If we want people back in this city, we need to start investing in this city. A new ice rink, great idea!! When large businesses look at building in this city, they look at what this city can offer. Right now, it appears all we can offer is negativity and a doomsday attitude. Snap out of it Janesville. We can and should do better for ourselves, our kids, and our kids-kids!!

And just a side note to the Janesville Gazette, Janesville's Mite team lost 7-6 in overtime on Saturday it was a great game. Those kids played their little hearts out...Gazette reported 7-0 loss in Sunday's paper. Get it right Janesville Gazette--the correct information is important!!

thediplomat-That is my point. Things are 25 years old. I said without doing the proper udpates. This stuff should have been done years and years ago. How is it any different than updating your roof, or your furnace, etc, etc on your home. These things need to be replaced at some point and if you let them go too long, the costs are going to add up and that's what happened. Now that times are tough, the money has added up and people are upset and don't want to see it happen. It's too bad.

spark,

You really think this could have all been avoid with maintenance? The cooling system is almost 25 years old. Sorry, but this is natural timing.

It's not the purpose of government to build, own or maintain ice arenas. This is what you get.

UM!!! I would like a race car track built in Janesville. Do you think the Menards building would be good. Come on people lets use our heads and think if this is something we really need right now. Sounds like everybodys ideas and points lead to a NO!

This is what happens when you let something go for so long without doing the necessary repairs and updates. Very unfortunate and poor judgement by city officials of the past.

Fergus Falls' repair job is now (as of February 20, 2009) estimated to be $4,800,000
http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com/news/2...
up from the $3,300,000 estimate in spacejam's article link from October 30, 2007.

Here is another city with a similar situation: http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com/news/2...

Here a good web-site on how ice rinks work: http://www.howstuffworks.com/ice-rink.ht...

Andreah, is that you? We have a new city manager now. You should probably let him finish out his third month before finding flaws to pick at, lest folks think you're a one trick pony.

Most certainty the city manager, city attorney and city employee’s have already spent many hours on this, so all-in-all, since the city manager is only one person, While he is working on the alternative plan for this idea, it will result in the sacrifice of other very important tasks which many citizens NEED to have him attend to. The way I see it, if the city manager has time to lavish on this sort of idea, what important matters does the city manager handle, anyway? Maybe the city manager, city attorney and city employees just doesn’t have enough to do; since the city manager and the city attorney already spent so many hours on this selected want for the city. Instead of what’s good for all!!!

OK, after talking to other directors of ice arenas.... They are not a profitable item. If anyone says they are please do the research and tell which arena is????????? I dont use the bike trail or the dog park or rockport pool or palmer park or any park for that matter.. Should I say that it should be closed and no funds go to those sites???? Look at what you are saying. There are what, maybe a handfull of you complainers about this. You must be the most sterile loser, magic having kids that are not capable of having an athletic kid to say that we do not need a Ice arena. If you have a problem with that, email me and we can discuss. Look forward to hearing from you.

So hard to believe all of this. With the economy the way it is all over and with unemployment being so high here, why is any of this even being considered?

As stated in other posts, this ice arena has been nothing but a money pit from day 1. If it's so crowd and used so much then how come it's not making enough money to support replairs, replacement or whatever on it's own?

Remember a number of years ago when all the Dog Race Tracks were built in Wisconsin? How many of those aren't sitting empty and parking lots being overtaken with weeds now? If you love ice skating and playing hockey then go to Traxler Park to do it.

Close the ice arena. There's people sleeping on the streets, but we are going to pay money to revamp an ice arena?!? WWJD?

Funny how that $200,000 grew to $1,500,000. We better start focusing on bringing good paying jobs to this city instead of wasting time and money on wants right now, before Janesville becomes a ghost town.

This is a money pit "The city in 1977 leased the arena to a private company to avoid paying subsidies. But the city took over management again in 2001 when the company went bankrupt." DO NOT GAMBLE WITH THE TAX PAYERS MONEY Sell it and cut our losses. 34 years and it still just sucks in the money but nothing comes back out? MONEY PIT.

Since the roller rink closed, kids and adults are swarming out to the arena. This is a public building that everyone in Janesville uses, not just hockey players and figure skaters. In fact, I bet it is at capacity often! It is so sad that so many residents freely comment that they don't think the ice arena is used, or doesn't need improvements/replacement, and then say they have never been there all in the same paragraph. Come down and see the old building and the huge crowds, then make your comments Janesville.

Is the old Menard building a free-span structure? I think that there might be some support posts there that would pose a problem for skaters. Does anyone recall how many posts there are in that building?

Come down to the ice arena on a friday night there alot of people that come down to skate. Saturday afternoons can also get a good crowd. It always seems that if someone doesn't use something they want it gone or don't fix it. There are alot of people that enjoy the ice arena besides the figure skating and hockey.

I also wanted to add I have not spoken to one person that actually ever went to the ice arena in this group. Also I don't think the arena was ever expected to make a profit.

the ice arena has never made a profit for the city- it's been a drain since day 1.
Yes, I don't use it or has a single person I have talked with about this issue but I have only spoken with about a 100 city residents on the issue........

Its real easy to say to shut it down when you dont use it, huh. The menards building would be great for the ice arena, but then we would still have to buy the building and update that so you are back to where we are now.

Does anyone know if the rink makes a profit or at least breaks even every year with hockey and figure skating programs? I only ask because the city I live in has a very large facility that has an arena for a junior a team and another sheet of ice (and it is in the South). The city subsidizes part of it, but the other part is a corporation that went in on the joint venture. Even with the added costs of being an ice arena in the South (hockey is over twice as much to play down here), it still turns profits every year.

janesvillecomments- I applaud your comments! Every single person I have talked to says they ought to just shut it down. I don't know where these people on this forum come from that are for doing anything to the ice arena?? Or am I to assume they are from the special interest groups that will benifit from them?

Run this white elephant til it breaks, then SHUT IT DOWN! Put a price tag on it and if ice-skating/hockey is such a "red hot" proposition, someone can buy it and make a fortune.

So now we are up to an estimated $1,500,000.00 for a City of Janesville beer stand for young drinkers. I see an argument for a full alcohol license coming down the rink... gotta also sell shots to make the mortgage payment. Perhaps AIG will loan the city the money?

what do we need and what do we want. in this time of chrisis, go for what we need. i would like to start a grass roots group of people that share the idea of spending our tax money on what we need. if interested reply; gazetterooster@gmail.com

I like that Menards idea. Unfortunately-with the present economic situation-Something like this should go to referendum (even the $200,000 & hockey team). I am in total support of having this facility and having it upgraded or replaced. Except this isn't just about me. Its about how this expense would impact our Janesville as a whole. In a perfect world we could say Yes to the WHP- YES we have what you need, ready to accomodate~ Yes- it won't have any effect on other user groups because we have not one but two sheets of ice! Yes- Figure skate and Hockey can co-exist peacefully! Boy am I dreamin!

I agree with hockey 1 The former Menards Building would make it an excellent for all types of Skating, for several reasons 1. it has reasonble amount of parking,2.Close to I 90 3. Lots of shoping stores and eating places around it. 4. hotels convention centers etc are around it. 5. with careful planning the building itself could be modifed into a center like the rink at State Fair Park.6.With the intrest and success of the boys and girls hockey program at the High school,this could be a "Jewel" for the city and area.

I think with careful planning this could be done how about Janesville?

Woody I don't think I would compare an ice rink to a car. A car is a necessity and this ice arena is more like a jet ski- a toy. Just like the rest of us hurting in these economic times that are selling our toy's I think the city should just let this one go to the junkyard and not burden the tax payers with the cost of something like this now. This whole fiasco is exactly the mentality that got us into this really scary economical/politicol mess. WE CAN NOT AFFORD THIS TYPE OF THING AT THIS TIME. This is pure luxoury and not a necessity. At this time we should only be spending tax dollars on what is absolutely needed- like road repairs,police and fire and basic infrastructure.

What about the old Menards Building. It is right off of the interstate and would draw fans in from all areas? That building needs a purpose.

Just like a car I own, it will cost too much to fix so I'm gonna "run it till it breaks". The same goes for the rink, run it till it breaks and throw it away. That thing has been a money pit since '75.

Pay now or pay later. Janesville chose to pay later - now we're looking at an unexpected repair bill.

The City is not in a position to build new and I can't imagine where they're going to get $1M to fix the existing location. The money can go for tax relief, or shore up other more necessary services that have been cut too far.