Record race? Yes, say some local minority members
JANESVILLE — When they leave their homes in the morning, they’re on guard.
They don’t let their guards down until they return home.
They’re black, and they know they live in a mostly white town. They know their skin makes them stand out. They believe there’s always a chance they’ll become targets because of how they look.
That’s why they favor a proposal that is part of the 2009-11 state budget bill that would require law enforcement to record the race of every person they stop.
Police are concerned about the unfunded mandate and the problem of determining a person’s race, but some local minority members said it could help with a nagging problem.
Shelton Evans, who is black, recalls an officer pulling him over one block from his workplace when he was head of the Janesville Boys & Girls Club.
The officer told him he fit the description of a suspect in a shooting the prior weekend.
The officer had Evans sit in the squad car. Another officer brought a photo to compare. The suspect weighed about 90 pounds and wore his hair in an Afro, Evans said.
Evans weighs more than twice that and shaves his head.
Evans said he had met the officer at a reception for the new police chief, but it wasn’t clear if the officer recognized him.
Evans said he can’t be sure he was stopped because he was black, but he couldn’t help but suspect it.
Evans also got a warning from a bicycle cop for having the music in his car playing too loudly, even though he didn’t think it was particularly loud. Now, if his windows are down, he keeps the music low.
Another black man, Marc Perry, is director of planning and development for Community Action. He was locking the door to the organization’s downtown Janesville office a couple years ago when a squad car stopped.
The officer asked what Perry was doing. Perry told him. The officer waited until Perry locked up, got in his car and drove away.
Perry said he’s not sure he was profiled.
“You want to give people the benefit of the doubt,” Perry said.
“I realize I am an African-American man working in downtown Janesville, and there are very few of us, and I am kind of a rare sight, coming out of an office in the evening.”
Perry said he had similar experiences growing up in Beloit and going to college in Milwaukee. That’s why he’s careful of how he acts in public.
“I am an African-American man working for a predominantly white organization, working in a predominantly white community, so I have no choice but to be (careful),” he said.
Perry believes he’d have no problem with 95 percent of police, “but you never know when you’re going to run into the person who has an issue. You never know when you’re going to run into a bigot.”
Billy Bob Grahn, a Rock County Board member and an Ojibwa, said he automatically checks himself the moment he leaves his home reservation up north: What’s his speed? Does he have a taillight out?
Grahn said if someone does the crime, they should be arrested. But he said Rock County Jail inmates are mostly minorities, well over their proportion in the county population.
Grahn believes recording race could be tedious and expensive, but he thinks it might be time to open what he calls a can of worms.
Evans appreciates that recording race wouldn’t be easy in every case because it’s often difficult to determine race just by looking at a person
So Evans said officers should simply ask.
Perry said he and others can tell story after story about their experiences with police, but someone will always offer a different explanation, saying that racism wasn’t the problem. That’s why he wants police to record the race of those they stop.
“It’s really hard to argue with facts, with statistics, with tangible data,” Perry said.
“It’s been going on for years. It continues to go on. It’s not isolated incidents,” Perry said. “… But I don’t know how often or how regularly because we haven’t documented it.”
In Walworth County, Enrique Barbosa frequently works with Hispanic or Latin inmates who feel they’ve been racially profiled by police.
Barbosa, a certified Spanish interpreter and owner of Elkhorn-based International Translators, said most of the Hispanics or Latinos getting stopped by Walworth County police feel profiled.
Barbosa said he has dealt with many cases of Hispanic or Latino drivers who complain about getting stopped frequently.
“They get stopped for no reason,” Barbosa said. “They get stopped because they look Latino.”
“At least, that’s what they think.”
Barbosa, who is of Mexican origin, said he has never been stopped or felt profiled, so he is not convinced it happens in Walworth County.
“I don’t know how much of that can be corroborated,” he said. “People will tell you all kinds of stories.”
Liliana Parodi, who works at Birds Eye Foods in Darien, said she doesn’t feel profiled by law enforcement.
Parodi, who has served as an employer representative for the Migrant Labor Council, said she’s heard stories about profiling but doesn’t personally knowing anybody who has been in that situation.
“I’m going to start asking around, but I personally don’t know anybody,” she said. “Not me or any friends of mine.”
THE POLICE VIEW
The Gazette asked area law enforcement leaders for their opinions about a proposal that would law enforcement to record the race of every person they stop:
Albany—The police department doesn’t have the staff to accomplish the mandate, Chief Robert Levitt said.
“I would hope that it would be a fully funded mandate, because otherwise I think it’s going to be quite a strain on our already strained budget,” he said.
The Albany department covers about 20 hours a day with three full-time and five part-time officers.
The department collects race data when officers write tickets or give written warnings, but it’s not recorded during other stops. The department would have to create a system to compile the data, he said.
“We pretty much know everyone we stop,” he said. “Just because a person of a different race comes through our town, we don’t stop them. It’s not the way we do business.
“I think it’s a knee-jerk reaction to maybe some larger communities, and unfortunately we’re all going to have to pay for it if it’s going to be an unfunded (mandate).”
Brodhead—Police Chief Thomas Moczynski said if the state dictates the policy, “that’s just part of the business. We collect that information.”
Most of the data that would need to be collected already is captured when police do a field interview or write a ticket, he said.
“The extra work might be collating that data,” he said.
His department and most others use a records management system that could compile the data, he said.
“We capture the data anyway, so if the state is asking for that, the capturing of the data isn’t that much more different,” he said. “How they want it and in what form remains to be seen how tough (it would be).”
Delavan—Police Chief Tim O’Neill said he was not yet familiar with the proposal, but said there’s no need for an additional set of data.
He said officers already are required to record the gender, race and date of birth for the people they pull over, arrest or have warrants for.
East Troy—Police Chief Alan Boyes is concerned about gathering the data and worries about how state officials would handle the information.
Boyes said he hopes the state would consider populations with a heavier set of minority residents when drawing conclusions based on the number of arrests or citations.
In the East Troy area, for example, police could pull over more Asian drivers than in other communities because the village has a substantial Asian representation, Boyes said.
“That has to be taken into consideration,” he said.
Edgerton—Police Chief Thomas Klubertanz declined to comment.
Elkhorn—Police Chief Joel Christensen said he’s worried about the extra work the mandate would create.
“If it’s going to be another requirement of us to somehow provide it, obviously that takes some time and some resources that are now being used for something else,” Christensen said.
Janesville—Police Chief Dave Moore said in a previous interview his agency would be willing to collect traffic-stop data.
The police department already tracks arrest data, including race, to prevent racial profiling, he said.
Police must stop drivers for behavior-based violations, Moore said, and the stops must be supported with facts.
The police department has policies against racial stereotyping, he said, and race- or gender-based stops are not tolerated.
Officers must have reasonable suspicion to make traffic stops, he said. They also must articulate a reasonable suspicion when asking for consent to search vehicles.
Milton—Police Chief Jerry Schuetz isn’t convinced a budget proposal is the best way to study racial profiling in Wisconsin. He would prefer the Legislature discuss the issue during regular sessions and get more input from local communities.
But if the initiative is passed, Schuetz said the state should advise officers how to determine race or ethnic background of drivers. Wisconsin drivers licenses do not display that information, leaving officers to ask an uncomfortable question during an already stressful situation.
“Each individual traffic stop is a unique event,” Schuetz said. “Many people will be very understanding as to why we’re asking the question. Some people may be agitated. It will just depend on every individual we stop and why we stop them.”
The proposal would create more expense for Milton and more work for the department’s support staff, Schuetz said. Creating a database to store the new data and logging that information would fall to two support staffers. Milton does not employ or contract with any data analysts.
Orfordville—Police Chief Dave Wickstrum called the proposal absurd and ridiculous.
“It’s the typical state trying to get involved with things they don’t need to be involved in. Obviously, they must think it’s a serious problem if they put it in a bill,” he said. “Just another waste of time and effort.”
The proposal would decrease the number of stops Wickstrum is able to make when he patrols around the schools on foot in the morning and afternoon. He said he stops about 25 cars to tell them to slow down but doesn’t gather any data on them. If he had to, he’d probably only be able to stop about five cars, he said.
“If I take time to keep track, I’ll stop less cars,” he said.
After 37 years in law enforcement, Wickstrum said he doesn’t understand how the policy would work and why it’s needed. He said he wonders if he’d have to find more minority people in Orfordville to stop because the numbers would show he doesn’t stop enough.
Rock County Sheriff’s Office—Sheriff Bob Spoden said in a previous interview his agency would be willing to collect traffic-stop data for the state.
The sheriff’s office currently tracks the race of people arrested to prevent racial profiling, Spoden said.
Deputies have a record of arresting offenders, he said, and they don’t target racial groups.
The sheriff’s office tracks incidents involving the use of force, Spoden said.
It also makes its arrest reports available to an outside agency to check for racial profiling, he said.
Walworth County Sheriff’s Office—Sheriff David Graves said it could become a personnel-intensive, “statistical nightmare” for some departments to provide the additional set of data on top of what they already gather.
“The biggest problem would be for the smallest departments who don’t have the staff,” Graves said.
Graves said Walworth County has an anti-racial profiling policy, and he has not seen problems throughout the county.
Whitewater—Police Chief James Coan is concerned about how officers would obtain such information, how it would be reported and how it would be used.
Wisconsin driver’s licenses don’t list ethnicity or race, leaving officers to ask for it.
“That certainly would be an awkward question to pose to someone,” Coan said. “If someone was asked about their ethnic background, they might regard that in and of itself as racial profiling.”
He said, for example, members of the Hispanic population might think questions about ethnicity or race are a means of checking their immigration status.
“We would have to do it in a way so as not to offend people, but if it’s mandated, we’d have to come up with a way to get that data,” Coan said.
Coan believes the requirement likely would create extra work for the police department.
“Depending on how they want that data captured and in what format they want it reported, it could be a burden from a records keeping standpoint,” he said.
THE PROPOSAL
The Joint Finance Committee last week broadened a proposal that would require all law enforcement agencies to report racial data for traffic stops. Instead of just in the 11 most populated counties, including Dane and Rock, as Gov. Jim Doyle originally proposed, the committee said the reporting requirement should be imposed on all state and local police agencies statewide.
Under the plan, police would be required to collect traffic-stop data and submit it to the state’s Office of Justice Assistance.
Supporters say the requirement would help determine how prevalent racial profiling, or police targeting of minorities for suspicion, is in Wisconsin.
Statewide traffic citations already list racial data, though no data is currently collected for written or verbal warnings. The proposal would expand data collection to all traffic stops, regardless of whether a citation is issued.
The Democrat-controlled Legislature must approve the requirement, and Doyle has to sign it, before it becomes law.
Jun 18, 2009 at 4:29 p.m.
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As a white person who was born and raised in the Great Lakes region, lived in south Georgia, and travelled the globe, I find it rather disturbing that there is such an issue with race relations in Janesville, and possibly Rock County.
I know that things take time and ignorance will not be changed overnight.
The more I observe my surroundings, the more I realize how much ignorance is running rampant in this area.
To simplify this to the best of my abilities, I will use the white vs. black issue that this article is written on.....
Has anyone noticed, or care, that white on white crimes, black on black crimes, female on female crimes, and/or male on male crimes do not come to light? It is when there is white on black, black on white, male on female, and/or female on male crimes that typically get the limelight.
What a disgrace we are doing for ourselves, our children, our grandchildren, and future generations!
As stated so eloquently by Billy Bob Grahn... the 'can of worms' has got to be opened! I am willing to work with Billy Bob and all those that are advocating for the education of others who are ignorant to those that are 'different.'
Jun 18, 2009 at 4:21 p.m.
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Pedro:
I truly appreciate you writing this article. It provides the appropriateness that America still has issues!
Jun 11, 2009 at 4:20 p.m.
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Panama: I'm not sure that you could accomplish what you're talking about without collecting data on all contacts. If you just collect on citations/arrests, that would not provide anything more than is available right now. Those who offend are cited and/or arrested. In order to know if profiling is happening, you would want to find out how many people are just given warnings. Those are the ones who would more likely be the subject of profiling, would they not?
Like you, I don't doubt that profiling may occur in a few places. But, putting undue strain on ALL officers in ALL departments seems extreme to me. I'm not sure what the answer is, but this doesn't seem to be it. I have little doubt but that it will result in fewer contacts.
Race information is available in CCAP and in COWS (CCAP is Circuit Court records, COWS is Municipal Court cases). Both are administered by the state. All citations and arrests are entered in one of those two systems. The State (which has far more staff than villages and small cities) could easily extract that data by issuing agency.
Jun 11, 2009 at 1:58 p.m.
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copperguy, it was never my intention to suggest that everyone in law enforcement is biased. On the contrary, I believe most who wear the badge today are there to protect EVERY citizen and enforce the law regardless of race or ethnicity, as it should be. Law officers put their lives on the line every single day and very often don't receive the thanks they deserve (as evidenced by your encounter while handing out fliers). And there will ALWAYS be those crying foul when no foul was committed. I also agree some individuals will use their minority status as a way to gain favor of shed responsibility, depending on the situation. Personally, I do not believe profiling is problem in many areas of this State, however, I do believe profiling does occur. Some of it may be blatant but much of it is more subliminal. By gathering the data, areas in which there APPEARS to be profiling could be identified then measures could be taken to address the POTENTIAL problem. As you're well aware, police are often forced to make difficult (sometimes life threatening) decisions without the benefit of taking the time to ponder and mistakes can happen but this is not about mistakes, it about patterns of behavior. Egregious acts of racism are easier to identify and, for the most part, are dealt with swiftly and justly. New stipulations proposed to help law enforcement to be more effective should not result in FEWER police patrolling their "beat". Therefore, I would hope the “rules of engagement” which determine it necessary to record this information include more than a simple verbal warning to slow down in a school zone.
Jun 11, 2009 at 1:45 p.m.
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Hannah: I'm not sure how to put this thought into words. And, I'm not slamming you...hopefully just opening a thought.
You seem to be intimating that a black person who voted for Obama on the basis of him being black was voting out of racism. I disagree with that assertion. If you look up the word "racism" in the dictionary, you will find that it has connotations of one race being superior to another. Expand that to alternatively mean that one race is inferior to another.
People vote for political candidates for a wide variety of reasons. Some voted for Hillary Clinton because she was a female. Some voted for John McCain because he was white. Some voted for one or another candidate because of the political party that candidate belongs to.
Many (if not all) of us cast our votes for the candidate we think will benefit us the most. In many of the instances I described above, one could say that the vote was based on some sort of -ism. Yet, a vote for a candidate who I think will understand my plight in life the best does not equate to believing that is so based on an innate superiority or inferiority of the candidate.
Voting for a black man because he can identify with the experiences of growing up black in America does not equal racism. Voting for a woman because she will understand issues like the "glass ceiling" or other issues of growing up female in America does not make one sexist.
In short, a vote for a candidate because of his/her ability to identify with me is not racist, sexist, or any other kind of -ist. Voting against a candidate because of a belief that blacks or women, or Catholics, or elderly folks are inferior...that is where the -ism comes into play.
I hope that makes sense. It's the best way I can explain it.
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:39 p.m.
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The Bottom Line
No matter how much data you collect, no matter how you present that data, there is absolutely no way to determine the presence of racial profiling.
You can study a communities racial foot print. You can gather numbers on stops, arrests and convictions until you're blue in the face, but the numbers will not reveal motivational factors.
In the case of Marc Perry I would like to believe the office was simply doing his job, but we'll never know. The only way to know if the officer was racially motivated is to give him a box to check that says "Was this stop racially motivated?"
For crying out loud people...think, please.
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:10 p.m.
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outdoor"You people just do not get it. This country is racist by nature. Example, the highest, most powerful job in the world is the president of the United States. Do you think the racist American's would ever elect a black man for that position? ....oh wait....never mind."
how many blacks actually voted JUST BECAUSE he was black and NOT because he may actually qualify for the position???????? one who have NEVER voted before or educated themselves on the canidates and who is qualified for the job??????
What would you call this??
NO i did NOT vote for Obama it has nothing to do with what color he is. Do I support him now- have to he is our president.
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:03 p.m.
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panamared"They simply want to be treated the same as everyone else!"
so they need to take off the RACE box on a job app them!!!!!!!!!!!
Jun 11, 2009 at 11:59 a.m.
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panamared- "......obtaining credit or ..."
sorry their isnt a RACE box on a credit statement. the bank doesnt know what race you are. If a person didnt get credit it is because you didnt pay your bills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jun 11, 2009 at 11:26 a.m.
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"Actually, I am a liberal." "I recall when I lived in Madison..." That explains it.
Jun 11, 2009 at 9:25 a.m.
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haveconcerns: First of all, we are talking about Wisconsin. The law being proposed is a state law, not national.
Secondly, incarcerations do not necessarily reflect racial profiling by the police. If you want to talk about sentencing, that's a different story. The proposed law does not address sentencing: It addresses policing.
Thirdly (for now): Of the arrests I have made for drug related offenses, 100% have been whites. 0% minorities. Anecdotally - from listening to radio traffic - most, if not all, of the arrests I have heard for drug related offenses have been white.
Of all of the drug related arrests resulting in incarceration I can recall off the top of my head in my area, 100% have been white. 0% minorities. I know of a guy who was entenced to 2 1/2 years for marijuana growing/distribution...white. A guy who was just sentenced to 5 years for cocaine distribution...white. A guy I arrested and was sentenced for cocaine possession...white. I know of one person who was arrested for cocaine possession with intent to deliver, who has been on the lam for the past 3 years, who is Latino. That's the ONLY non-white I know of in my area.
Jun 11, 2009 at 9:01 a.m.
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70% of illegal drug users nationally are WHITE. 90% of people sitting in jail/prison for drug offenses are people of color (BLACK, LATINO)
RACIAL PROFILING
Jun 11, 2009 at 8:02 a.m.
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Actually, I am a liberal. I am against all forms of bigotry and prejudicial treatment. I will take every opportunity to call out a bigot for what s/he is. I have spoken out on many, MANY occasions when friends or acquaintances have made an outlandish comment about someone based on that persons race, religion, ethnicity, sex, sex orientation, etc.. I have lost friends over my refusal to tolerate intolerance. Even to the point that when a fellow cop makes a comment like, "POS car=POS driver," I will tell him/her what a stupid comment that is.
If there were ANY question in my mind about racial profiling, I would not oppose this proposal. But, there is no question in my mind. Instead of cops profiling, what I have seen happen is a member of one or another minority cry "Profiling" when s/he is caught offending.
I recall when I lived in Madison there was a park nearby. I would have loved to have taken my dogs there, but dogs were not allowed. Yet, I often saw people with dogs in the park. The Animal Control Officer from Madison PD gave me fliers about the penalties to hand out. The next time I was in the park, I handed out three of them: two to "white" folks, the third to a black man. I simply said, Sir, dogs aren't allowed in the park. Here's a flier from Madison Police." He screamed, "You're nothing but a racist!"
I recall stopping a car in the middle of a snowstorm that didn't have working windshield wipers. All windows were nearly totally packed with snow. I had to pull along side him to get him to see my lights and pull over. It was an Hispanic driver. His response? "You wouldn't have pulled me over if I wasn't Latino!" There was NO WAY I could tell ANYTHING about who was driving.
Good grief!
Jun 10, 2009 at 11:25 p.m.
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Hey copperguy--Thanks for your service in spite of all the liberal, "backseat drivers"!
Jun 10, 2009 at 11:18 p.m.
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Red: You don't address anything I said, but instead start another train of thought. So I will do the same :O) In addition to the point of the burden of more state-mandated data collection, I wonder how that data will ultimately be "sliced and diced". I would suggest that ferreting out "profiling" is really the job of investigative journalists - if there is a perceived problem let them do their own experiments and report on the results!
Statistics are often misused for political purposes. Consider the Community Reinvestment Act - keep track of who loans money to whom based on race, income, credit history, and other factors, and in fact REQUIRE financial institutions to loan money to those with the worst credit histories (lest they be denied merger and acquisition opportunities). Gee, how's that working out for the economy today????
Jun 10, 2009 at 7:58 p.m.
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One other note: On the VAST majority of my traffic stops, I have no idea if the person driving is white, black, Latino, Asian, or - with hairstyles these days - even male or female until after I've initiated the stop. Yes, I'm profiling...I'm profiling offenders.
Jun 10, 2009 at 7:55 p.m.
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Actually, I don't have to agree, Panama. Quite to the contrary: I think Dave is exactly right. I will say it again: Right now, he makes 25 stops a day for whcih he collects NO data. That probably consists of him waving someone to a stop, walking over to the window, and reminding them to slow down. End of contact. And, these stops are in a very small time window of a half hour or so at the begin and end of the school day. If he now has to track racial data on all "stops," that does a few things.
For starters, he's going to have to get the person to the side of the road, get their driver's license, run the plate and dl, and record the information the state wants. So, instead of a one-minute contact, you're making it a 10 minute stop. You don't have to be a math professor to figure out if a contact takes 10 times as long, one can not make nearly as many contacts. That's simple math.
Now, add on the administrative time it takes to record that data "somehow," and then produce reports "somehow." In departments with limited clerical time, you are then taking a cop off the street. I suppose that's ok though. Better to have a cop in the office filling out reports than stopping the drunk driver or the kid breaking in to cars.
You can not blame disproportionate minority incarceration numbers on racial profiling. Racial profiling doesn't put people in jail or prison. OFFENSES put people behind bars.
Jun 10, 2009 at 6:21 p.m.
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Panamared...you're reading too much into it or something, because Wickstrum was being straight to the point, and realistic. Copperguy explained it in detail and you still don't get it.
*
This proposal is not objective and the true causalities are being missed, and it is time for racism to be taken out of both sides of the subjects (stop crying 'racism' and "profiling"). Stupid, stupid, stupid! I am am pleased most people feel similar about this topic, according to these posts.
Jun 10, 2009 at 10:50 a.m.
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Thanks for the semantics lesson Dave, but I think I have a fairly good grasp on the concept behind racial or ethnic based profiling concerning law enforcement. I just don't understand why so many are against collecting the data necessary that would either prove or disprove the fact that profiling exists. Evidently it doesn't effect you anyway, so whats your objection?
You have to admit, copperguy, Chief Wickstrum's objections range from dumb to outright idiotic. In fact all of the objections expressed by local law enforcement are weak. Wow, what a burden! It will take a little extra time and they're not sure if their system can track this kind of data even though many collect this information for citations and warnings already. Besides this has nothing to do with quotas. Perhaps if a large majority of 50+ men driving past schools are stopped by police due to suspicions they could be pedophiles cruising for victims (it sure seems to me most of those charged as pedophiles are 50+ men) then the "Profiling issue" might take on a whole new meaning to a larger segment of society.
Now do you get it Dave?
Actually brwe, I think that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing is great, it just shouldn't only apply to law enforcement, however, but to everyone.
Jun 10, 2009 at 9 a.m.
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You people just do not get it. This country is racist by nature. Example, the highest, most powerful job in the world is the president of the United States. Do you think the racist American's would ever elect a black man for that position? ....oh wait....never mind.
Jun 10, 2009 at 8:23 a.m.
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Okay, let me state the obvious. ANY minority, by definition, is more likely to be pulled over and/or questioned, when a crime has been committed by some one else of the same minority. This is NOT so-called "profiling", this is common sense. Example: a Latino commits a crime in a neighborhood. Let's assume there are only three Latino families in the area. Well then, obviously, members of those families are more likely to be questioned than all of the non-Latino families in the neighborhood. How do I know this is not profiling? Because this holds true even if the police officer is a member of the same minority.
Another example: Go to most any large American city. If you are a white person, cruising around in a black neighborhood known for drug activity, selling to white suburbanites, you may be pulled over and questioned as to why are you in that neighborhood. Doesn't matter if the police officer is black, white, or chartreuse. This is basic police work and common sense, it is not so-called profiling.
Example of profiling: A black teenager is shopping in an affluent, white shopping area. The teenager is detained and questioned by a Cambodian police officer. No crime has been committed. No white teenagers (or Cambodian teenagers, for that matter) have been similarly treated. THAT is profiling.
If you still don't understand, there may be no help for you.
Jun 9, 2009 at 8:06 p.m.
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I actually got a chuckle out of Chief Wickstrum's last comment: "He said he wonders if he’d have to find more minority people in Orfordville to stop because the numbers would show he doesn’t stop enough." But it also makes me wonder if the communities would be well-served by an officer being afraid to stop a minority who did something wrong for fear of going "over-quota."
Also regarding Chief Wickstrum's comments, Panama, you seem to have missed a very important point. He said that he stops around 25 cars to tell them to slow down but doesn't collect ANY data on them (emphasis added). So if he goes from collecting NO data to collecting ALL data for every contact, that is a LOT of EXTRA work, you see. The result is to make fewer contacts and, thus, to diminish his effectiveness.
And his experience is not unique. I have made many, many traffic stops for which I issued an admonition to "slow down," or "come to a complete stop," etc, without ever recording the person's identification. True, I will check their driving and want status. But that is an online inquiry and does not get stored to the local records system.
I am a stickler for ethics in policing, but I have never heard anything that resembles racial profiling or stereotyping. This is a make-work proposal that is more likely than not to reduce all numbers of police contacts.
Jun 9, 2009 at 7:14 p.m.
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So...now we know that no minorities want different treatment than anyone else--because PanamaRed said so!
Jun 9, 2009 at 4:07 p.m.
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"So the police did their job and pulled over someone who resembled a shooting suspect. Do you think the shooting suspect could have shaved his head in the past week? Did they ultimately let Mr. Evans go? I just don't see a problem here. Race was not the reason he was pulled over, it was the resemblance to the shooting suspect."
(To make this easier, I am using the "SuperDave" format.)
Here is some critical thinking for you Dave. The ONLY common thread in your post that links the person detained for the crime with the alleged perpetrator is skin color, nothing more. I agree hair can be cut but its rather hard to put on 90 lbs in one week. I would think even a rookie law officer would catch that minor detail much less a seasoned veteran. Maybe the suspect wore spandex? Many of the bloggers complain minorities want to be treated differently than everyone else. They don't. They simply want to be treated the same as everyone else!
You are correct. An educated guess, based on your posts, lead me to believe you're Caucasian. You don't dispute it, so am I wrong?
Jun 9, 2009 at 2:46 p.m.
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PanamaRed: Don't put words in my mouth, I never said that it's "ok to stop innocent people simply because of their skin color". Use a little critical thinking here, pretend you're a cop. Obviously you are going to check out someone who resembles a crime suspect, NOT BECAUSE OF SKIN COLOR...(pardon my shouting), but BECAUSE THE PERSON RESEMBLES THE CRIME SUSPECT. Wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to be looking for a green person when the description of the suspect is purple. Duh.
You also make the assumption I am Caucasian. Based on what, exactly?
Jun 9, 2009 at 10:42 a.m.
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The input from the small towns shouldn't even count! Have you all read the other articles about what is going on in Whitewater? I'm sure these racist kids didn't become raist on their own. I wonder if any of their parents are officers or work with the public?? This is PROOF that racism is still here!!!!!
It's sad nobody sees that our government wouldn't have to make these sort of laws and things if we all just treated eachother with the respect we all deserved! These things have been created because of US!!!!!!
Jun 9, 2009 at 10:38 a.m.
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My bottom line is the CLAIMS of racial profiling & "entrapment" are the favorite choruses of the guilty, once caught! A corollary is that it's dangerous to constantly treat those who put their lives on the line to keep us safe (be they police or military) as guilty until proven innocent!
Jun 9, 2009 at 9:46 a.m.
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Thats the best you can do brwe? It sounds a bit like the "separate but equal" policies of old. How did that work out? What part of "I shouldn't be labeled as a threat simply because of my skin color or ethnicity" don't you get. We are talking about profiling by law enforcement not some marketing team trying to sell toothpaste to a target group. Profiling by law enforcement results from a lack of respect, not a lack of understanding. SuperDave believes its ok to stop innocent people simply because of their skin color. When was the last time you were stopped because your description fit someone who committed a crime, SuperDave? Surely there have been some Caucasian males your age who have committed a crime that are still on the loose and fit your description. Turn yourself in and save law enforcement the trouble of pulling you over. Bottom line, it's really not that difficult or time consuming to document the information requested and IF law enforcement is profiling then it should be substantiated then abolished.
Jun 8, 2009 at 10:13 p.m.
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Orfordville Police Chief Dave Wickstrum for Governor! Maybe Sheriff?
Jun 8, 2009 at 9:58 p.m.
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Shelton is as big as Shaq (literally) and is bald. There is NO WAY he could be mistaken for 90lbs. Yes he could of shaved his head, BUT I wonder if they have ever pulled over a "big" bald white man when the description was a slim white male with long hair?
REALITY is racism and profiling exists and police are NOT innocent. What other way do we make sure our police(who aren't going to admit private thoughts) accountable?
Maybe if we all open our eyes to our own judgements, we could see the effects ALL profiling REALLY has on OUR community!
FYI, I am a white female..........
Jun 8, 2009 at 9:49 p.m.
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Everyone is judged by their appearance. Anyone who has certain characteristics that are outside what "Society" views as "normal" have felt slighted at some point. Whether its because you have piercings, tatoos, an unusual hair style or simply a conspicuous birth mark, someone has probably made a comment or a gesture that has made you feel uncomfortable or uneasy. Being ostracized does not carry the same weight as being accused of criminal activity. I admit that, as a white male, I have probably faced the least amount of bigotry either based on gender or as a member of an ethnic group. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to remain hopeful when, from the moment of birth until the day you die, most of society views you as "corrupt" because of your skin color or ethnicity. Not being considered for a job opportunity is bad enough but when you have trouble renting, obtaining credit or feel apprehensive when visiting a certain area of town because of your ethnicity, that's simply indefensible. We have all been "picked on" but don't try to think you know what's like to be a minority in this country, unless you have firsthand experience.
Jun 8, 2009 at 9:30 p.m.
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"Evans said he cant be sure he was stopped because he was black, but he couldnt help but suspect it." No kidding, they were looking for a black suspect not a white suspect! Who is this Billy Bob? He looks white but claims he has to be careful around police? Give me a break! Glory hounds. Anything to get into the news! This is pathetic!
Jun 8, 2009 at 9:28 p.m.
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I think the only way to make PanamaRed (& millions like him/her) happy is to set up completely separate systems for each perceived minority. Since I'm a 50+, white male--there's no way I'll ever understand teens, non-whites, or females well enough to make intelligent judgments about any of them. In fact, the ONLY ones qualified to judge Blacks are other Blacks, right? (Just one example.) So--the only equitable system is an all-Black system! Am I missing anything here?
Jun 8, 2009 at 8:58 p.m.
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Please see gmaof3's comments about the hit and run......this would be a an example of racial profiling.
Yes, it has been going on for years, BUT that doesn't make it OK. The only way to have change is to change OURSELVES!!
Jun 8, 2009 at 7:38 p.m.
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PanamaRed... I'm 50. Racial profiling has been going on since I was born and obviously before. Not only racial profiling, but those of us with different lifestyles, a different physical appearance (such as body piercings/tattoos). A strong political opposition to wars we don't belong in... like Nam. A religious conviction to raise our children in our own spiritual beliefs or lack thereof.
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I'm sick of hearing about how minorities are so abused/negected and treated differently. I am sympathetic to proven neglect and profiling, but feel the balance is more even lately and to the point that minorities gain "first ups" simply because of their ethnicity.
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This is what I see, this is what I've experienced... A white woman at 50 years old, can't get a job when challenged by a minority, regardlesss of my 35 years of work history. So I am also "profiled".
Jun 8, 2009 at 5:18 p.m.
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Gee, let me guess. Every single blogger up to this point is Caucasian. It sickens me to think that there are millions of innocent people of color living in this country that are constantly worried about being harassed simply due to the color of their skin. I've been harassed only because of the length of my hair which is nothing compared to the feeling of injustice a person gets from being persecuted due solely to their ethnicity. Judging by the comments, law enforcement views the policy change as a giant hurdle and has the potential to cut into their ability to protect the public. Orfordville's Chief, Dave Wickstrum really summed it up best when he, "called the proposal absurd and ridiculous. He said he stops about 25 cars to tell them to slow down but doesn’t gather any data on them. If he had to, he’d probably only be able to stop about five cars, he said."
Of all the comments from local law enforcement Mr. Wickstrum's is easily the most pathetic. Perhaps Mr. Wickstrum should take a course in remedial writing skills or maybe it takes him that long to check a box. If it's that big of a problem, perhaps Orfordville should look to hire a Chief of Police that writes faster. If that's his public view, imagine his private thoughts on the subject. There is no reason why this data shouldn't be collected plus, if the assertions of law enforcement are correct, it will help to alleviate profiling concerns of minorities.
booch's comment is a clear example of the lack of understanding reflected in many of the opinions expressed thus far.
Jun 8, 2009 at 4:18 p.m.
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This proposal, conveniently tucked away where it doesn't belong (in a budget proposal), did not come about because of complaints or suspicion of racial profiling. Tamara Grigsby of Milwaukee spearheaded the effort "just to be sure we don't have instances of racial profiling." You elected this scatter brained legislature. I suggest you write them, voice your opinion, and ask how they'll vote.
Find your local State Representative and State Senator here;
http://www.legis.wisconsin.gov/w3asp/wam...
Jun 8, 2009 at 1:18 p.m.
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Talking about discrimination in Janesville is a tad Orwellian. If you are Black or Hispanic, you may assert that you have been discriminated against, or profiled, and there is no question, no problem. If, on the other hand, you mention profiling of Whites, well, can't have that in our paper, can we? WE all know only Whites can be racist, right?
Jun 8, 2009 at 11:05 a.m.
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Illinois has been doing this for years. Its not a big deal.
Jun 8, 2009 at 10:46 a.m.
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when i was white and young i typically drove a crappy car and drove it in a typically non-safe fashion.
i got pulled over a lot.
now i am white and much older. i drive a much nicer car.
and i drive it safely.
nowadays, i rarely get pulled over.
were the police profiling me as a young, white irresponsible driver?
Jun 8, 2009 at 10:44 a.m.
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Another "Diamond Jim" Doyle hairbrained idea that will cost us money and just provide ammunition for lawyers suing for racial profiling. Just another payoff to the legal profession.
Jun 8, 2009 at 8:21 a.m.
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The poor are disproportionately targeted, but we always have to talk about this in terms of race. A well-off black person is less likely to be targeted, prosecuted, and incarcerated than a poor person in general. And, no one wants to talk about the fact that many of our incarcerated people are mentally ill. We need to change our entire criminal "justice" system.
Jun 8, 2009 at 7:41 a.m.
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Let's just look at the first example. "Shelton Evans, who is black, recalls an officer pulling him over...he fit the description of a suspect in a shooting the prior weekend. The officer had Evans sit in the squad car. Another officer brought a photo to compare. The suspect weighed about 90 pounds and wore his hair in an Afro, Evans said. Evans weighs more than twice that and shaves his head."
So the police did their job and pulled over someone who resembled a shooting suspect. Do you think the shooting suspect could have shaved his head in the past week? Did they ultimately let Mr. Evans go? I just don't see a problem here. Race was not the reason he was pulled over, it was the resemblance to the shooting suspect. And don't tell me that they shouldn't have questioned him because he weighed more than the suspect, he had personally met the officer before, he was the "head of the Janesville Boys & Girls Club", etc. None of these are relevant.
Jun 8, 2009 at 6:16 a.m.
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I'm worried about the pressure that this would put on police officers to make the numbers come out right. Criminality in minority populations is a huge social problem that is rooted in big chunks of the popular culture, poverty and the historical treatment of these groups. It wont be fixed by an officer deciding not to pull someone over because he's already pulled over too many minorities this week. This problem needs to be addressed in a major way, not superficially as this plan proposes.
Jun 8, 2009 at 4:55 a.m.
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This is subjective, unnecessary, and completely time consuming, and it will certainly be unevenly applied throughout the area. Some officers and/or agencies will be more specific to one aspect of the data and not another, or too much in one direction. In otherwords it will not be accurate anyway.
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I like how some of you are pointing out how it will be akward, as well as "what do you do with the information gathered?"
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I am upset that this is being suggested/ proposed. *****Police officers are already held to a professional standard, the numbers of latinos, whites, blacks yada yada is not relevent to the reasons for the stops.
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This is suggestive bureaucracy, and does not address real cause and effect. Simply require that officers be professional, and then keep all involved in a system of oversite. You know....realism. It's not racism. Enough with this crap thinking. By the way one of the people in the article has been in jail.
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Police should be held to a higher standard, but this type of thinking will simply tie their hands even more. You may not think so, but it will. Too much process is being pushed into the mix. Simplify it folks.
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As a teenager, I was pulled over in front of the Janesville Mall, because teenagers were hanging out around there too much (before the new circuit-hang out formed)....I was being profiled because I was a teenager!!!!!Fowl, Fowl, Fowl!!!
Jun 8, 2009 at 12:21 a.m.
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Another Governor Dolt hair brained waste of taxpayer money idea. Thought there was a budget crisis?
Jun 8, 2009 at 12:18 a.m.
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And if it is found that a city has higher than average contact with minorities, then what does that really prove. Do they have minority gang problems, is it poverty and property crimes issue or is it racial profiling. There is no way to know so what good does that data really do. Individual incidents should be properly investigated and actions taken if an officer should be found to be acting in a manner unbecoming. I believe Janesville and David Moore are addressing these issues, as probably are most municipalities, why add another step to an already thankless job.
Jun 8, 2009 at 12:17 a.m.
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wesgonsin: Grahn is a Rock County supervisor and, perhaps, has more exposure to these statistics.
Jun 7, 2009 at 9:02 p.m.
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I also love the concept of "asking" when the subject's race isn't obvious! Those of mixed race, especially, should have a lot of fun with that! You can claim each half on separate occasions!
Jun 7, 2009 at 8:55 p.m.
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Isn't it interesting that five reputable minority people don't claim they've been profiled and don't have minority friends that claim to have been profiled.Yet "many" anonymous, less reputable representatives insist they've been profiled. Sounds like a major oroblem that can only be solved with government intervention! One theory that would explain the predominance of minority inmates (& has never been disproven) is that MAYBE minorities actually commit more crimes! Just maybe the system that arrests, convicts, & penalizes a minority criminal isn't doing so each & every time solely out of racial prejudice! Hard to believe, I know, but you've got to admit it IS possible!
Jun 7, 2009 at 8:46 p.m.
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I am a "white" person.I was working for my employer well into the wee hours of a morning back in 1997. Had a stack of work on the desk, a pot of coffee brewing, and a spreadsheet-type application displaying on the computer. But I had dimmed the lights to save on the electric bill (that was important back then, to) and left the door partially ajar to let a breeze in. Well, they walked by (we were located only a few blocks from the police station back then) and entered. Grilled me for a half hour as to who I was and why I was there. Finally went as far as calling my boss at 3:00 a.m to check my explanation. Didn't really anger me, though... Rather have them out there patrolling.
My point is that they are recording race.... 'White/Caucasion' is a race, to. 'Black' or 'Hispanic' or 'Asian' aren't the only definitions of race out there.
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"Grahn said if someone does the crime, they should be arrested. But he said Rock County Jail inmates are mostly minorities, well over their proportion in the county population"
Where does Billy Bob Grahn get his statistics from? Really, I would like to know. He seems to be quoted a lot on this website, so yes, I would like to know where he's getting his numbers from.
Who gives a rats if your black, white, American Indian, Asian, Hispanic or whatever. Don't be using the word 'bigot' everytime you have trouble in your life. As a 'white' guy, I sometimes wish I could blame everything on "The Man"
But I'm not going to.
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