We had a much larger debt ratio during WWII and that spending eventually stopped. If we have inflation it may be because there will be fewer competitors then because of a falling dollar. Remember, in the 80's many foreign car manufacturers set up shop here because of the declining dollar and because states gave subsidies but really got nothing in return except promises that are easily broken. At least in this case the government owns part of the company. I am not saying the situation is perfect nor that things couldn't have been done better. It can always be done better.

916WI - read the post again. You seem to be adding words to my post. I was just saying The reason whoanellie used to buy GM cars, to keep jobs here was still relevant. So there must have been some other meaning to that post, that's all.

I'm not whining at all. Just making observations, and providing analysis. In a few years you we'll see the disastrous effects of what is being done now. I guess it was just my "irrational fear" that accurately predicted oil going over $140 a barrel, and the coming market crash, at this same time last year.
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I said the international comparisons made were apples to oranges because they come nothing near the sheer magnitude of the US economy. No selling of wheat, or federal land, is going to somehow backstop trillions of $$'s of leveraging. The sheer magnitude of debt is becoming so large that there is becoming no one to turn to to finance the leveraging. The basic problem now, from prior debt spending, is that we now face a major problem of GDP growth SHRINKING while debt grows. Bernancke outlined some of this problem today; in fact. I ran across this article on Bloomberg this morning doing my pre-market analysis of markets.
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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...
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This warning is put much more mild then the threat really is. Keep in mind Bernanke made many statements like "The sub prime melt down has been contained".."there is no credit crisis" in the past. Not that he was oblivious to what was going on, he simply does not want to raise mass panic by telling how bad the problems out there really are. His comments about inflation, I would totally disagree with, because I don't think his warnings will ever be taken seriously, and the mass deficit spending will NEVER stop, and the only way to back the debt will be by printing your way out of it. I mean the federal reserve could eliminate the debt over night if they wished. Simply print $13 or so trillion.
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Well, enough fun on this subject. Keep up your passionate debate. You make some spirited arguments, but I'm not going to debate this indefinitely. Have to get back to work.
Cheers

"Again you have no facts to back up anything your saying."
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Wow, expecting more from other posters than you yourself provide.

Chad--I disagree with your comment to whoanellie--she did her part and invested her tax dollars in GM to "support America". She shouldn't have to be guilted into driving a crappy GM car on top of it. I, for one, will be sticking to my imports....:)

So, I guess the only thing we can now is wait and see. We still have about 3.5 years to go.

Still, you have made quite a few predictions and statement that are based on little more than irrational fear. You say the currency is based on "fiat" even though I pointed out that Reagan backed it with Wheat surpluses and I pointed out that we could do the same to prevent inflation. I pointed out that Japan and Italy run deficits that are quite large compared to GDP and you went on about how our two party system is like Japan's one party system even though the LDP is probably going to lose the next election. A run on banks would damage the economy with or without the FDIC. The FDIC is simply to clean up the mess afterwards and would take some time to settle and in the mean time you still aren't getting your money and looking for a bank that hasn't failed. Again you have no facts to back up anything your saying.

Why is the left still whining? Really. When did you stop?

I also have never suggested that the "minority" should be the ones calling the shots. Power has obviously been won in mass by the liberal/progressive side. I have never claimed they should not be able to pass their agenda. They have been given the power by the masses who elected them, and that is how the system works. Just don't say that no one warned you of the melt down to come once the policies are put into place....
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I frankly don't see why so many on the left are still whining, and still have so much rage and anger? I mean you won, you have mass power in ever branch of government. You can do w/e you please, and fix all these awful problems that you think were caused over the past 8 years, and cure all the awful social problems and injustices that exist throughout society and the world.

darwin:
I do not give facts and links because I merely do this as a hobby. Just a fun way to kill time in my spare time. I am not writing a research paper, just sharing thoughts, observations, and a little humor. I could provide plenty of facts and links, and do on some other blogs that I post on.
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And yes, it's all mass corruption. If you don't see that, god bless ya. No major bank would have ever failed. Your buying into utter nonsense put out by political hacks. Just look at some of their balance banks actual balance sheets, and real numbers. None 9as in zero, zip nada) were ever going to fail. If you did had any sort of run to "break" a major bank you STILL have FDIC that would have stepped in to be the final government bailout of the citizen, and their bank deposits. The "crisis" was simply a well calculated ploy by your financial elites who are the ones backing most of your politicians in the 1st place.
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The great depression was a totally different era that is not even a viable comparison. You have a fiat based currency now, and layer after layer of buffers that never existed in that era. TARP was just one giant scam, a number in congress (from both sides) are all ready probing into the mass corruption that the entire bill entailed. Countless #'s have gotten rich off TARP. The reason so many banks are paying it back all ready as you noted, is because they never did need the $$$ in the 1st place. Much of that $$$ now being "paid back" is not even going back to the treasury where it was borrowed from. It's just being used as revolving door to give out to the next bank who asks for a bailout. Companies like AIG, Freddie, and Fannie will NEVER pay back any of the billions of TARP $$$, that $$$ is long long gone.
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As far as Japan and Italy; it's pure apples and oranges. Totally different political systems, and economic environments. Only real similarity I see with japan is our government is becoming much like the LDP that has ruled the country ever since WWII ending. Where you basically have one party rule. A system that really has not done them all to great the past few decades, considering unlike us, they have hardly any defense obligations in their budget.
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You can believe w/e you want, I'm not going to change your mind. I will pretty much guarantee you, however; that you will see mass inflation. It's hard to gauge exactly when that will incur, but it's really just a matter of time. The dollar is all ready starting to loose a lot of strength to other major world currencies after we have bailed out the auto's and passed the stimulus bill. That is of course why you see oil back on the rise now, as it's denominated off the US dollar. Oil, and major dollar denominated commodities, will lead the charge to the coming inflation as the dollar weakens. No surprise at all if NYMEX crude reaches back to the $150/barrel range in the very near future. Which will pull gas prices well over $4.00 a gallon.

“The government runs the military but I don't hear them complaining about that.”
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As the constitution requires. Again the little socialist picks and chooses his facts without merit.

"It is a cynical ploy to condemn everyone and everything without any facts."
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Most of your own posts are this method, now you castigate others for the same. When another does it, it’s cynical, when you do it what is it?.

kiowamohican, please spare us the everyone is corrupt speech already. It is a cynical ploy to condemn everyone and everything without any facts. You claim to study this everyday but have no details, facts and cite no sources.

What part of the banking system isn't subsidized. This is the way it has always been. The Treasury, a separate entity from the government, borrows money to the banks at a low interest rate, the banks then tack on interest and borrow it on. This is the way it has been for some time now. As I said before they were trying to prevent a recurrence of the bank runs of the Great Depression by shoring up every bank. You criticize this without even considering what the alternative would have been. So, the government does nothing and there is massive bank failure, where do all the direct deposits go? How do retailers know what banks have failed or not on a daily basis?

You speak of unlimited leveraging in the future. Yet, Japan and Italy have amassed far more debt without runaway inflation. Our currency is what other countries hold to back up their currency. If we have inflation the dollar depreciates and we pay China less and if we want to we can back our currency with food surpluses which is what Reagan did or federal land.

How many conservative talk radio people are we talking about here? Really. Any numbers? If we go to Nationalized Health Care will they do us a favor and refuse that too because of who is running it? The government runs the military but I don't hear them complaining about that. I mean, in what reality should a small minority control what the government does in a democracy?

There was always the chant. You just couldn't hear it over the bellicose, self appreciating babbling of the righteous right wingers.

Chad- totally agreed..People need to put anger and retaliation aside..Rise above.

kiowamohican, what is sad about what you said is that as a society we have gotten to the point where we will cut off our noses to spite our face. Determining life choices on talk shows or pundits, conservative or otherwise, shows a lack of awareness and lemming like mentality.

whoanellie - your reasons for buying GM are as relative now as before. The money is OUR money, so to use that as a reason to not buy GM must mean that you really want us and the US to lose or fail.

Kleej - yes, there has to be accountability. And it seeems for the auto industry there was more accountability than for Wall Street, AIG, Lehmans, etc. Unfortunately it is those hard working people you talk about that have the most to lose from all this. I look at this mess the last administration put us in as a unique situation that may take unconventional ways to correct it. While the auto industry was hurting, the wound from the financial debacle is what caused it to hemorrhage. It is sad that money is only what matters today. But I say give Obama a chance. There are so many critics now that were quiet for the last 8 years while this country was run aground.

darwin:
I don't think you read the context of what I wrote correct. My comment about the conservative talk shows was that they will simply use the GM take over as a political tool for their followers to NOT buy GM products, which will have major effects on future GM sales. The same would be done by the other side if it was Bush who took over GM. All it does is adds politics to the equation, and it will ultimately KILL sales as it eliminates a large number of buyers who simply will not buy the product BECAUSE of the politics now involved with the government owning it..
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As far as the banks go, you can believe whatever you wish about TARP. I have very very reliable sources, and study this stuff daily. I can tell you without question that it was a total sham. The "troubled assets" were never even bought! The context of the 400 page bill passed was literally changed DAILY. All it did was load up the banks with massive amounts of capital that they did not even need, so they could write off bad loans from their books. It was simply a rouse to receive massive corporate welfare, and the ones on Capitol hill who voted in favor of it (that includes both McCain and Obama) are as crooked as any politician out there...BOUGHT AND PAID FOR! Mark my words, history will regard TARP as the beginning of the end to the US economy as we know it. It, in itself, will not be what destroyed it, but it will be what paved the way for endless leveraging after it. After it passed, there is no stop now on how many trillions the government can leverage.

lovemycountry, I might not necessarily agree with you, however, at least you have details and facts and not just hyperbole.

First, I think that we can agree that markets are good because they bring competition. And I think that is what the government wants to ensure. EVERY country that has an automobile manufacturer provides subsidies for economic and security reasons. Our states also subsidize foreign manufacturers of vehicles here and then rely on the rest of the country to subsidize the state. Manufacturing an automobile is capital intensive in and of itself. However, since few people can purchase a vehicle outright it is also dependent on functioning credit markets. There are several factors involved in determining whether or not to give loans to a company that is failing. One is barriers to entry. Manufacturing cars isn't like opening a McDonalds. Fewer competitors will mean higher prices for everyone.

Finally, those who think the country is going down the wrong road. Guess what? We get to vote and if things don't work out we can vote and change it. So please spare us the "sky is falling" speeches. Remember Prohibition. It was even an Amendment and it was undone.

U.S.A! U.S.A! U.S.A!

whoanellie
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So, you dislike Obama more than you dislike the unions?
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woopee

I beg to differ with the critics who say a conservative wouldn't buy GM because they are union. I'm very much a conservative and have always bought GM because I felt it kept jobs here. Plus I have always liked the ones I bought. I do NoT however trust the government one bit so I will not be buying another GM product. We are on our way to government run EVERYTHING and I don't see an upside to it!!

chad, what's going to give other companies incentive to get it done on their own now? What happened to accountability? The govt. is buying out the citizens too inessence with their stimulus package. People that came to this country understood that handouts weren't part of the equation. They were willing to work hard and look out for one another and that's what made this country so great. Now, it's all about the govt. lulling this country to sleep through the one thing most love above all else....MONEY. This country has lost it's soul and our govt. is preying on it. This isn't the time to be complacent and reliant Uncle Sam, it's the exact opposite time. Once reliant, always reliant and they know that! I refuse to play.

It's a old talking point of General Motors executives that they couldn't compete with Toyota, Honda, and Nissan because of Japanese government assistance. Yes, the Japanese government has given them millions of dollars for R&D. The rest of the story is the United States did the same thing for the big 3.
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From 1993 to 2000, the United States spent $1.2 billion helping the American auto industry develop hybrids just like the Prius. The program was called the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV). It was a joint effort between the Department of Energy, national laboratories, universities, and the Big 3 U.S. automakers (through a research consortium called USCAR). The goal was for each of the automakers to build a prototype family sedan that could achieve 80 mpg and cost no more than a similar conventional car.
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Chrysler, Ford, and GM each produced prototypes that got at least 70 mpg: the Chrysler ESX3, Ford Prodigy, and General Motors Precept. All three were diesel-electric hybrids. But none of the companies built the cars. Why ? As any union employee will tell you, the management was short sighted and marketing was stuck in the past.
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American car companies lost market share because of free market competitiveness. Consumers chose Asian makes over American makes in each of the 3 car sizes, comparing similiar prices. Free markets and consumers always win in the end, despite government interventions. BTW, right now, the biggest intervention threat to the U.S. consumer is the Federal Reserve interference in the value of our dollar. The federal banking cartel is destroying the purchasing power and future for every American citizen.

lovemycountry - I would agree that there should be less Government intervention. But we are living in a different world, different times now. For our country to compete with other countries, they are forced to play by their rules (more government intervention/help) instead of them playing by ours. This is the big sellout for capitalism, it is not a true global constant. Many rules have been made by other countries to gain advantages. It's about time our country fights back. Does it make it a good thing for capitalism? no. But we can just sit up high on our throne while the base crumbles either. How do you suggest the US compete with an unfair market?

chad_vader - We can all agree noone wants to tolerate corrupt private corporations, including "Wall St. demons". The problem with more government intervention in the private sector, however, is that government leads to more government power. AND, the more power government has, the more laws are passed by soldout politicians to assist corrupt corporations. I agree corporate lobbyists control much of DC. If DC gets bigger, corporations will control that much more of our lives. E.g., the military-industrial complex.
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The answer is voting out the soldout politicians and replacing them with candidates that will adhere to the supreme law of the country, the U.S. Constitution.
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It's kind of like if Chad Vader owned Empire Market, and he wanted a law passed that grocery stores had to be 30,000 sq feet in size (to put out of business his rival store Clint Foods, which is 25,000 sq ft). Chad Vader donates much $ to his congressman's campaign, and the congressman soon gets the legislation passed on the premise of "public convenience". It's an unconstitutional law, but because we've given government so much power, the corrupt politicians pass it.

fool since its your complaint why don't you explain to us how it violates the equal protection or would that be too much work for your intellect.

RAF, you didn't copy and paste. There are miracles.

"maybe you didn't notice, but the screwing of America started years ago, mainly with Ronnie and W's terms favoring the greedy, un-moralistic corporate and Wall Street demons who really run this world." -- chad_vader

The above statement supports my point, chad. I don't accept the "common suppliers" or "every country does it" arguments. How does governmental propping of one particular entity at the expense of all others not violate the principle of equal protection?

fool you have been fooled! The global economy already forces us to make changes in the supposed freely competitive market. Japan has given money to Honda, Nissan, Toyota in the past to help them while increasing tariffs on US auto imports, causing a huge trade imbalance.They were not always successful companies. Why should I cry for them?
Second - the supplier chain used by GM is also used by Ford, Toyota, etc. here in the US. So they are being helped too by not having that collapse. That is why even Toyota didn't want to see GM destroyed.

RetiredAirForce - maybe you didn't notice, but the screwing of America started years ago, mainly with Ronnie and W's terms favoring the greedy, un-moralistic corporate and Wall Street demons who really run this world.

Kleej- but then again, if we are to compete apples to apples in the "global economy" then we must use the same tactics. I am not saying it's right, but seeing as how the Japanese, Chinese, ect. governments have seen the value of auto manufacturing jobs enough to give their own local auto companies money (while increasing tariffs to keep our vehicles out, I might add)then how are we supposed to compete? There are no pure capitalistic societies, just versions of some hybrids. The New World Order has changed the rules. Just glad our Government has finally decided to play using all the rules before our country was depleted of good manufacturing jobs.

Evidently, the party of "darwin1" is really the party of "Screw America First".

When "we the people" use the force of government to favor one out of many in an otherwise freely competitive market, the unintended consequences of that will be global.

Setting aside the issue of whether or not GM or Chrysler deserved to be saved, why is there so little concern that, when "we the people" give them a leg up on the ladder of success, they will be stepping on the backs of Ford, Toyota, Nissan, VW and every other more successful auto manufacturer? Pick one of those companies and put yourself in their shoes.

There is a Constitutional principle known as "equal protection". I would like to hear someone make the case for why our government isn't violating the U.S. Constitution when it rescues your failing competitor.

All this is was a deal to protect the unions. In the end, the company went belly up, but the union is still intact. Had GM went belly up on their own, without government intervention, the UAW/CAW/IEE contracts would have been void. Obama now tells GM what to do, and when, and all to pay back the labor unions.

kiowamohican, please spare us the conservative talk show blah blah blah Stalin speech. How exactly do you write all of that factless dribble without laughing. I means if it comes from a Conservative talk show host then it must be true - NOT. Conservatives didn't buy GM in the first place because they are union.

The purpose of the TARP money was to prevent a run on the banks. This because under accounting rules they have to value their mortgage assets at what the market will bear irregardless of whether people are paying on them or not. In words, they are under valued. Many of the banks are already paying back or trying to pay back the TARP money and with interest. Under the current plan GM needs only a 20% share of a ten million car market to be profitable.

Evidently, the party of "America First" is really the party of "Screw America First".

janesvillian:
The ones who were CONSISTENT in their beliefs never wanted the banks to get a dime of tax payer $$$ either. They should have been left to fail. The dirty secret is hardy ANY of them would have failed! It was simply a massive ploy by power brokers in the banking community to grab $$$$ by creating a panic, so they could bury the many awful loans they made off of their books. A ploy that their friends (aka: the ones who accept millions of political $$$'s to win power) on capitol Hill were much willing to help them with. NONE of the major banks would have ever failed, it was a total sham, that was perpetrated upon in ignorant media and public, to stunning perfection. They got their billions (ok trillions), no strings attached, wrote off all their bad assets, and are now laughing their a$$ off knowing they can do it again whenever they please.
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NO ONE should be bailed out by the government. The banks, the auto's, no one at all... Business should be allowed to FAIL when they make bad/destructive business decisions. Bankruptcy should be allowed to take place, like it has for the past 200 years or so. With government backing everyone now, all you are doing is setting up for the unholy mother of all economic collapses. As the mass leveraging will eventually just take down the entire US treasury when the mass debt collapses upon itself.

The reason the government take over of GM will fail is because it now injects politics into the equation. This without any question will DESTROY GM sales in the future (more then they have been destroyed all ready). The country is pretty close to 50/50 when it comes to which way they lean politically. The last few national elections are fairly good indications of that. When the government takes over a company like GM, all it does is act is fodder for the other side to basically boycott ever buying a GM product. Just listening to a few of the conservative talks show, you all ready get a feel for this. They are all ready screaming how GM is now run by CEO Obama, and that his minions took it over in a Stalin type fashion. If Bush did the exact same thing, the left would be screaming the SAME sort of stuff.
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So basically what will happen is that you will have a very large %age of Americans (all who are consumers) that will say SCREW YOU GM, no way I will ever buy a GM product now. ALL because of the politics involved in it now that the government has become involvement. That will be CATASTROPHIC for sales, mark my words. You have basically now eliminated a huge %age of potential buyers all because of the politics involved. Just anecdotaly I know some friends who always bought GM cars, who have said they will never buy a GM car ever again, now that the government is involved. You can say what you will about that attitude, but trust me it will be one that takes place in mass, and GM sales will fall off a cliff even MORE then they have the past 2 years.
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This whole thing is pretty much a complete disaster in the making. The company will NEVER become profitable, and it will be funded by the treasury (taxpayers, and borrowed $$$ from the Chinese) indefinitely. Much the same way Amtrack has become over the past few decades, accept this will be on a much larger scale.

Kleej, if it is "legalized" as you say then exactly what are you complaining about?

the term socialized medicine was used earlier in a post.

what is socialized medicine? Is it like the VA - where the government funds the health care and owns the facilities and hires the employees?

Or is it like Medicare and Medicaid where they are just funded by the public?

chad~ that doesn't give the government the green light to start taking over companies. They're nothing more than legalized maffia now. Using power they were never supposed to have in the first place. What a shame that we've let this happen.

My husband and I both have GM SUV's and we like them a lot! Had them for years and they are still going strong! (However, I can't afford to buy a new one for a LONG time...)

lovemycountry - there are capitalists and then there are people who are raping this country under the guise of capitalism. Unfortunately , when those greedy bastards like the ones at AIG and Wall Street ran this country into the reefs the government had to step in. That is it's job, to try and protect the people and our resources from these abusive, greedy slugs. Capitalism needs a moral base to guide it, and enrich the WHOLE country. $$$$ is the only thing those people understand.

lovemycountry, ignore darwin1. It's a power trip thing. Your post was very good!

Yes, lovemycountry, the government doesn't build roads for autos, doesn't print money, didn't give land to the railroads or set up monopolies for utilities blah blah blah. Wake up, WWII was the biggest stimulus package ever. Like I said, spare me the speech and get your facts straight.

People made this country great, not government. Including capitalists like Henry Ford, JD Rockefeller, Thomas Edison. Produced millions of jobs and consumers. Yes, they become rich. How did they get there ? Investment capital and sweat equity. Not government makework programs and regulations.
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On the other hand, socialist programs like stimulus packages fail everytime. Why? Because they don't produce wealth, it's a ponzi scheme our children and grandchildren will be paying for, sadly. Proof ? Social security, medicaid, medicare are all liabilities that will break the backs of the next generation before they even collect their first paycheck.

Alll I gotta say is does anyone remeber 1972? How many great cars came out after that year.

We better be open arms cause the Vega and Gremlin are on their way back... THANK YOU OBAMA thats what I always wanted. A 2010 Vega thatgets 40mpg cost $50k and will kill me when I get hit by a truck or something with any mass to it... SWEEETTTT
Sorry I take that back I will stick with my Denali and C5vette..Thank you very much

lovemycountry, you point to "socialism" as the reason for the economic troubles in Europe (and the UK, which is larger than just England, and is actually part of Europe, but never mind). Since we don't have socialism in the United States (and none of the European states you mention are actually socialist, but never mind that either), what role would you ascribe to our capitalist system in the current debacle?
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It's really funny. People seem to be angry that the banks were given money with no oversight. Now they're angry that GM and Chrysler are getting too much oversight with their money. Make up your minds! Or is shoveling money no questions asked the definition of capitalism, now?

Amen Darwin.

Iceland, Spain and Britain are not Europe. So, please spare us the evils of socialism speech. Norway, Finland, Germany and Denmark all have export surpluses. Don't recognize that word "surplus"? The Clinton years were a time of innocence.

Markets don't work when there are no competitors. We are seeing a serious contraction of the automobile industry because of what happened in the financial industry along with a rise in energy prices. Without government intervention markets will fail, competition will decrease and prices will rise.

We already have socialized medicine in several different forms. There is Medicaid, Medicaire and emergency rooms couple with bankruptcy courts. People die in waiting rooms now because wealth, which is often unearned or inherited, determines how medical services are rationed. This hardly seems to provide for the "general welfare".

"To sum up, your anger is misplaced."
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Your assumptions are wrong grasshopper. The stinky problem with this mess is precisely the fact politicians became involved. Leveraging opinions are one thing, passing directives on a public company is another. This will go down in history as exactly what government should not do in their zeal to help companies/donors/supporters and garner public favor.

Zoom - you are missing the big picture, there should have been no government intervention and no bailouts. And before you say, that's where we are now, get over it...the question is how much further will this socialization of the U.S. go, with more private industry takeover after banks, auto ? Socialized medicine ?
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Like Europe ? Europe is not doing well. England is about to collapse the Iceland way. The rest of the countries are in dire straits. Spain had the biggest unemployment growth of all the developed countries of the world. Food charities organization are alerting of record people asking for help. Greece is still rioting, and the army has refused to obey some government orders.
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The only big advantage of the EU against USA is that the euro is not massively held as reserve by foreigners like the dollar.
So, the worst part for the U.S. is that the bigger the interventions we have now, the bigger the American crash will be later.

To sum up, your anger is misplaced. It should be directed towards the executives and board of bystanders who couldn't keep their companies afloat at a critical time in our history. Ford is managing to do it. Why couldn't GM and Chrysler?

Since the government is the lender of last resort (remember, GM ASKED FOR THE BAILOUT), the lender has a lot power to determine what happens. The "shrinkage" should have happened under Rick Wagoners watch, but it didn't. He was the one that refused Chapter 11 reorganization, and here they are anyway, reorganizing, because nobody wants to loan GM any more money. If the government had not intervened last year, GM would probably be in Chapter 7 by now.

I personally think they should have sank on their own, without government money, but then you folks would be complaining the government did nothing while they bailed out Wall Street.

Take a look at the online paper for the Spring Hill, TN area. Remove the logo off the website and you'd wonder if you're reading comments from the Gazette or from the Tennessean.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...

Ajs: Because it is a very dangerous cliff to be teetering on, that's why. The government can barely run itself, what makes "them" think they can run a large, multi-dimensional corporation? The government is there to govern the people--not run their business affairs or corporations. Many people are on "alert" right now because of this. Why? There is a fine line between a democratic society "bailing out" a corporation and socialism. And, as kleej said, WE should be very alarmed!

you would bitch a lot more if the government had to take over the pension plan. the roughly 40 billion they have paid out so far would look like pennies in a few years.

Why should that comment be alarming?
Correct me if I'm wrong but it was the government pouring money into the sinking ship,I think it is only right that the Government has a say in how things go from here. If they didn't want higher involvement they shouldn't have taken the money.

"Obama administration's plan to shrink the automaker to a sustainable size and give a majority ownership stake to the federal government."-------------
WE, the citizens of this country should be very alarmed about this particular statement.