If Barack Obama is the Messiah that would make George Bush the anti-Christ. Sounds right to me.

darius:
YOU BET YA!
The government is now officially an instrument to bailout EVERYONE! Banks, failed business (big 3, airlines, ext), state governments who spent reckless, and on down the line.ALL will be bailed out. The printing presses are going to be running 24/7 now to print all all this deficit $$ we are going to need to bailout every failure!

Speaking of jobs and labor issues, here is a you tube video of one of the Mesiah's cabinet speaking on who should get the jobs they will "create". Very revealing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opxuUj6vF...

if an employee has 36 years at gm and is 59 years old can they get unemployement or are they forced to retire?

Announced by GM CFO in December as labor costs, so I don`t know either way. Still, at 10% it`s not the main reason they are in deep do-do!

6% last year.....10% for the years preceding. Does anyone know if either of these figures include the legacy costs that must be absorbed by the vehicles selling price as well?

916WI, interesting article, but it seems to put all the blame for the auto makers problems on the UAW, even though labor costs were only 6% at GM last year. The jobs bank was not sought by the UAW, it was offered by GM, now the union gets nailed for it. Then there is that "95%" of wages when laid off. You get unemployment, and SUB(money diverted from wages for layoffs) up to 95% of after tax wages, then you must pay taxes on that money.

No worries. We have the govt. to pick up the pieces for everyone. The "bird feeders" are full and waiting!

A little long, but a very good read......

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/newsanal...

It was always my understanding that you didn`t go into the jobs bank until after your unemployment and SUB ran out. Can anybody clarify that for me?

That`s interesting considering the national union has announced it is suspended.

Factcheck- There is still a jobs bank in Janesville. I don't know how many are in it, but I do know people who are in it right now.

nurse4u, there was a jobs bank program, it has been suspended. Janesville has had no one in the program for quite a while. It was offered to the union by GM in the 1984 negotiations, and patterned after the Japanese concept of 'lifetime jobs." In Japan the government mandates if you lay off workers, full time employees only, you must pay them at least 60% of their wages. The Japanese makers traditionally pay 100% to laid off employees. Once GM screwed up by putting it in the contracts, they were stuck with it, to their regret.

I was not speaking of the sluff-offs (found in ANY employee group of over 1000-and I KNOW they exist), the jobs bankers (who started out to do community service when available work was limited-too bad that didn't pan out), nor employees of other forms in other companies. My comment regarded just "average (GM) employees" who were referred to as "button pushers" in the previous poster's comment. Why? It's insulting to that majority of "average workers" who worked hard for their company and their families for all these decades.

For future reference when I do buy another vehicle, I plan on doing more research on the particular make and model.

I must admit I was very upset recently to see cars being sold "Buy one, get one free" for about the price I paid on my used car! I could have had TWO near new cars for the price I paid for my used vehicle! Too bad I owe more on my car then what it is worth!

I have heards stories about GM having something called a "Job Bank." This was located in a building with computers and if work was slow, they would go there and do anything they wanted and still get paid.

Are these rumors true?

RUSerious: there are many people in this country that demand a full wage for button pushing.
The mindset is in fact present and protected well even by law in some cases.
The greater evil is the ability to demand unheard of salaries to sign a name to piece of paper.
Until the mindset changes and the law changes white collar crimes will exist until they are treated as blue collars or perhaps government loses there ability to see color will the balance restore it self.

Obviously something must be done-much needs to be changed, facts are facts...but in saying that, can't we at least stop with the "the average employee( who does, not much more than push a button,)" nonsense? That is not fact, and even junk cars would never get made no matter how many they employed to just "push buttons". It adds nothing to the veracity of the person who claims it.

Janesville take your factory and your skills and put them back to work WITHOUT GM. Get back to work on your own this time.
Instead of bailing out GM, have GM give Janesville the factory and help Janesville in retrofitting the factory to produce a new vehicle.
As an outsider, I see Janesville as one of the first dominoes in a series of dominoes which will begin to tumble throughout the land.

1) In short, we are on the brink of an energy crisis unparalleled in human history. The SUV should have never been built in the first place.

2)American debt to the rest of the world, mainly Asia, is going up 1 trillion dollars every 15 months!
The US only produces 20% of what it consumes, that means 80% of what we consume is imported.

Combine the two above factors along with a whole bunch of other crap, and what America is faced with will most likely be much worse than the GREAT DEPRESSION.

So where does this leave the people of Janesville? The whole nation will soon look just like Janesville looks now, only worse.

Firstly, forget GM. Secondly, don't trust politicians, thirdly don't rely on the unions. Big daddy and big brother got you here. They don't have a clue how to get you out. This is YOUR lives and your problem, not theirs. And that factory for all intents and purposes should be yours too. So start manufacturing something on your own; preferably something very green and even exportable? Who knows what's out there? Do the research; what patents are waiting to find a manufacturer which can get made in your factory with your skills and labor? You can't seriously believe your factory is ONLY suited to build a couple types of of gas guzzling SUVs? Tell that to a Chinese or Indian entrepreneur. They would find a way to make it work. You can retool if you put your minds and muscle to it. You have absolutely nothing to lose. Necessity is the mother of invention. You now have an amazing opportunity to own your own factory and employ yourselves at making something positive while keeping the profits locally. Of course it's a dream, but you are already dreaming if you think GM or the government will come save you, so you might as well dream a different way.

It`s hard to get facts about Toyota`s labor costs, but they are believed to be about 8% in this country.

10% is what it was in 2007, $18 billion, much lower last year, $8 billion, announced last month.

The UAW says direct labor is 10%, which is about what I've read from other sources (10%-12%). Direct labor isn't the biggest cause of GM's problems, though it has an effect. For every extra dollar spent on labor vs. the competition, one less dollar can be spent on the quality of materials, features, etc.

GM`s CFO announced labor costs of $8 billion for 2008, they haven`t announced how much their income was for the year, but it was over $115 billion for the first three quarters. Anything above $15 billion will bring the percentage of labor costs to about 6%.

Well, 6% seems rather low to me, but I also believe that the GM ceo's and other higher payed people, should ALSO take a cut. They may not be union workers, but their wages are OFF the charts. There wages should be cut too. (even with a cut would be ABOVE the average american wage) But, they also have the POWER, so why would they volantarly take a cut in wage. That too, has much to do with GM's money problems.

dreneb, it`s kind of hard to see how labor costs of less than 6% are the reason for cars being high priced. What about the other 94%, surely that has a bigger effect on the price?

You cannot keep giving money to a sinking company unless they start restructuring from the top down and get rid of the idiots who caused the problem to begin with. We keep giving GM more bailout or loans and then they will probably file for bankruptcy anyhow and all that money we gave them is lost and we the tax payers are stuck with the bill while the CEO's are living pretty.

I worked at GM as summer help. I could have stayed on for several months, $1000.00 a week, as temp help. It MAY have lead to a full time job, but I was offered another in Health care. I took the offer. I saw THEN that GM was not going to make it much farther. I believe the UAW (which I payed FULL dues to, without ALL the benifits or wages)screwed the workers. They are a business too. They are out to make money, NOT protect the worker. There WAS a TIME for unions, ONCE. When workers were getting injured, or Dying on there jobs, for LITTLE pay. NOW, there are LAWS in place to prevent that from happining. I think all the UAW's agenda, is to get outrageous salary for the average employee( who does, not much more than push a button,) so they can collect there dues! The average GM employee, makes 2 times (or more) the salary I do now, so, OFCOURSE they charge more for there autos. But I, making an AVERAGE wage, can not afford those autos,(but the GM worker can). When I buy a new car I look at QAULITY and COST. It seems that the foriegn auto maker, BEATS, GM hands down. They do not pay there employees,ABOVE average wages. (I am sure they are still good wages, but NOT what union workers make)I would LOVE to buy American made, but, having an average American wage, I can not afford it! Maybe if the Unions would CUT back on soome of there demands, GM and other American auto makers, would be competative in todays market!

(sorry, I misread... looks like your Venture is on the order of 5 years old)

nurse4u - the last time an American car was 100% made in America may have been the 1930s... and I mean steel from Pittsburgh, synthetic rubber from Ohio, etc. You state that you bought an American vehicle but that you bought it used; likely for the same reason that I have purchased used vehicles -- cars become rapidly less expensive after even just the first few months. (And a two-year old vehicle, even second owner, should still be under factory warranty which nowadays is typically 5-year 100,000 miles so I think you were taken by either the dealership or the person who sold you the car.)
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However, it is for that very reason -- cost (or price to the consumer) that companies are ever outsourcing. Once upon a time, the spark plugs and a few other parts that went into a Janesville-built were all manufactured right here in town. The cost of a new GM vehicle is "so high" that most consumers who "buy" in fact have to take out a loan or lease. Up to some $7,000 (IIRC) of a new GM vehicle goes towards pension and health care obligations. That money never directly is utilised to retool plants or design new vehicles (it is secondarily used for those purposes by keeping the workforce healthy in the first place...).
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Imagine how much better GM vehicles would sell if they were $2,000, or $5,000, or $7,000 less than the foreign competitors' models. Imagine how much those companies are profiting instead. There is a reason Toyota's market cap is $172 billion to GM's $2 billion now but I'll let you ponder why that might be if they both sell the same number of vehicles.

Ummm... because the UAW is dead (anyways) without American auto manufacturing jobs? Why keep paying that idiot Rick Wagoner???
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Almost every auto manufacturer (US, Asia, and Europe) has lined up for subsidies from their respective governments. Also, most are shutting down production for week(s) at a time in the coming months because of low global demand.(*)
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But don't get me wrong... I do not weep for the makers of our golden chariots... it is definitely a lack of imagination along with doses of greed, incompetence, and short-sightedness that put us where we all are today.
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To wit:
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Before city busses, we (as a nation!) had interurban electric rail(**) as well as long-distance passenger train service. A) Few cried when those carriage manufacturers and railways went belly up. B) The auto (& oil, rubber, ...) industry could, but won't, position itself to build effective public transit.
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If we really believed in the "free" market, most airlines would have gone bankrupt shortly after 9/11 (as well as during the last three recessions) and both the banks and auto companies should be going belly up now.
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But deep down, we really don't believe in the free market, do we...? Too bad "socialism" is such a scary word.
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(*) http://www.truveo.com/Glut-Of-Imported-C...
(**) http://www.davesrailpix.com/odds/il/il.h...
(**) Goto http://uwdc.library.wisc.edu/Collections... and search for "Rockford Interurban". One of the two photos has this caption: "Early 1900s photos of Interurban Railway Car with engineer and conductor, and other streetcar employees. The Interurban served Rockford, Illinois; Beloit, Wisconsin; and Janesville. Its ticket office was on North Main Street. The company began as a horsecar line in Rockford in 1881. In 1890, it electrified its streetcars. Following a series of mergers with other local railway lines, it became the Rockford and Interurban Railway Company in 1902, the same year in which service was extended to Janesville. The railway entered the city on South Jackson Street and crossed the Rock River into downtown. Hourly service was provided between 6:00 am and 11:00 pm. The service was terminated around 1929, the rails pulled up, and the depots razed in 1931-1932."

The UAW is way too smart to buy a dying company like GM, why would they waste their money? that is their cash cow, if they buy it, they could never pay themselves what someone else will (Government).

Face no one wants to buy GM, especially Stock holders. If they did, when GM's stock fell to $5, they would have bought up much of the company and the influx of cash would have helped. It's called supply and demand. There is no demand for a dying company and wake up, if you think GM is not dying. I believe it is unsavable, even with the Government money.

I think it is ridiculous that alot of American Companies either produce or import parts from foreign countries. I want items Made In America!!!

I have a Chevy Venture vehicle. The intake gasket went out ($784), the radiator hose($180) and the head gaskets ($1948). This is on top of my car payments, insurance, minor repairs and upkeep. I have owned this car for two and half years (bought used at 50,000 miles) and it has less than 100,000 miles.

Further research showed the head gaskets are a common problem. There is also a recall on the gas tank.

I just want to get my money's worth. What happened to quality over quantity??

Your funny,not a comment!

marymac, please provide a link to the UAW sitting on $4 billion. If that is true, then the UAW could outright BUY General Motors right now since the market cap is half that figure.

In order to lower the prices of your product, you need to achieve lower costs to build the product. Hopefully, GM is realizing this. I'm afraid many workers aren't going to like how companies need to achieve lower costs. Lower wages.

Has GM executives even begun to take concessions? NO. I mean life changing live off bread and water.
I will not support bailing out the wealthy, the working man yes but I don't need to go along with a bailout to pay a bean counter to save the working man. The whole concept of saving American corporate GM is laugh.
BTW... I own two GM products. I'm sick and tired of hearing the competition killed GM that is furthest from the truth GM leadership killed GM.

I heard this morning that TOYOTA "IS" sending "ONE BILLION DOLLAR'S A WEEK, back to JAPAN,that's real good for OUR economy,RIGHT!!! So soon we forget about WALL STREET,that got us in this mess,the thieving rich.

do a search on car dealerships for example just in the chicago or milwaukee area for chevys. see how many dealerships and therefor people just in that segment will be affected. now multiply that by all the other american companies and their brands and get an idea of the enormity of the problem. the american car dealers are in trouble more so because of an anti american bias than anything. that can be seen by the negative comments. the problem is deeper than janesville's hatred of gm (at least the people that never got hired there) switch to the info on the detroit auto show and get a look at the competition out there. with that in mind, gm still has a 35% market share. not only that, all the car companies are feeling this depr...er, recession and i'll guarantee they will be backed by their governments. these foreign countries survive on the american market, period. buy american means something. we lost our shoe business here thanks to foreign competition and 1$ an hour wages to make them. our manufacturing segments are going over borders fast. but we don't demand american made products, we demand cheap products, like china's junk. it used to be japans junk. remember!

And the UAW sits on 4 plus billion

Still disagree, but appreciate reading others inputs.

Sure, give GM more money, without GM the UAW wouldn't have a reason to go on strike anymore. No one is ever happy with what they have until it's gone.

mickie: let me put GM failing into real simple terms for you. GM has not his a little wave in business. They have slammed into an ice burg full steam. Your theory of people being rescued by pouring water(money) into the ship makes no difference the ship is sinking and the frigid water(money)is freezing all the passengers and rescuers.

I'll pass on the free GM car......Please give me the free money instead......

As far as I understand it, GM in North America will run out of money not GM as a whole. In the United States it is primarily GM's obligations to pay promised health care benefits and pensions. This is the biggest reason that nationalized health care is such a big deal. GM actually approached the Bush administration in 2003(?) and stated that this would happen.
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Meanwhile, GM is posting profits in most of their overseas operations.

we should get something. or maybe they could price their cars and trucks so the average person could afford to buy them

so since we are all pay for GM to stay open shouldn't we all get a free car

Don't you idiots get it. WE are paying for a firm that needs to fail. You and your children's children are going to be paying for propping up these companies only for them to fail. I kind of agree with macdaddy and zoom. If I went to the bank today and asked for a loan for my business and at the same time my business was tanking they (the bank) would laugh at me and call the nut house to come pick me up. I'm sorry for all the people who will be hurt from the fall out of this but poorly managed companies deserve to fail that is the basis of what the free market theory is.

So after GM blows through the 1st wave of bailout $$$, how much more will they get when they come back and ask for more? Then how many more billions do they get past that, when the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th bailout fails to save them? I mean it's no longer a question of whether they get bailed out, it's just a question how much money they get...errrrr, how much money the government PRINTS to bail them out!

mickie-Everyone already knows this. Everyone knows it will effect other aspects of the community. We've gone over this before. The article is about how they're almost out of the money already. Nobody below is bashing or whining about how much GM people make or anything like that. They are commenting on how poorly a company was and obviously still is managed. I think everyone would love to see GM get back on their feet for obvious reasons.

Woodsman-Nobody is talking smack. Everyone is simply in disgust that GM allowed themselves to get to this stage. Even with the money they have been given, what are they changing to increase sales or get themselves out of the hole? At some point, enough is enough. GM employees themselves should be furious.

It isnt just about GM !! If our huge sorce of economic support in this area has been GM employees and others employed secondarily through GM- well UH DUH, guess what? Less spent at restaraunts, clinics, grocery stores, entertainment etc..You people who were not able to get in on these jobs need to quit the whining! There are PLENTY of over paid people, in many different jobs. Oh, and NO I am not a GM employee, I make half what these folks made. But it is what it is!

Woodsman- actually GM has been Janesvilles bread and butter for a long time. Just about everyone in Janesville and some of the outlying areas are going to be effected. What Janesvillians have to understand is that things change and we need to move on. Whether we like it or not, even if GM gets back on their feet this time, it may not be the case in the future. Lets let the change happen as it is meant to.

Of course they wouldn't Woodsman......GM employees would expect the taxpayers who are also hurting during these difficult economic times to continue subsidizing their lifestyles as they build products that no one is buying....God forbid that a GM employee would have to struggle the same way that others who are not employed by the auto industry would.......

If G.M. was your bread & butter,you people wouldn't be talking so much smack!!

RAF, Fiat said they won't be supplying Chrysler with operating cash, only technology and vehicles Chrysler could build and sell in the U.S. Too little, too late?

Fiat would get a 35% stake now in Chrysler for free, with an option to buy another 20% stake down the road for $25 million, if everything works out. $25 million! I wouldn't mind seeing Alfa Romeo's in the U.S. though.

"Chrysler could face tough questions about why taxpayers should put more money into the company when neither its majority owner, Cerberus, nor its new partner, Fiat, are doing the same."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12324522...

Yep, they're done.

Ok GM, the party is over. My vote is for no more money and time for you to file bankruptcy. You have shown time and time again that you can not run a profitable company. Shut the doors and file the papers.

Unbelievable.

Zoom, Chrysler just picked up all kinds of help from Fiat.

Obviously, they are not "too big to fail". They have done that already. They may, however be "too big to save".

Tried of hearing "to big to fail" what about to big to Manage? I really don't understand if these companies are failing why the Management is not in the unemployment lines along with their workers. As hard and cold this sounds we need the weak to fail and the well manage firms will pick up the pieces. This bailout will be over 2 trillion and counting.

i agree, if i went to the bank and asked for money, but had no way to pay it back, would they loan me the money?? Not if they were smart. the government seems to loan first and ask questions later, hopefully that doesn't happen, but i guess everyone is feeling good because the UAW and GM heavily financed their candidate and he won. Maybe Barack will "repay" them, using our money. We'll have to see how this all pays, excuse me, plays out.

GM has already failed. If they would run out of money BEFORE March 31 without the second installment of $5.4 billion, how long do you really think they will last after the last installment of $4 billion on Feb. 17? A couple months, at best. They won't be able to reduce their cash burn by $2-$3 billion per month in time.

Don't worry, GM (and Chrysler) will be hitting up Uncle Sugar soon for more money. I feel sick.

Gotta love this part: "Although formal talks have not yet begun with the UAW...".

What, exactly, are they waiting for? To date, the UAW hasn't had to actually provide any concessions. The two-tier wage reduction for new hires, scheduled to take effect in 2010, doesn't help much when you don't have enough business to actually hire new people.

Or this: "...GM will have four core brands in the future: Cadillac, Chevrolet, Buick and GMC."
"...will shrink Pontiac to a performance niche brand."

Isn't that really five brands? What is the purpose of keeping the Pontiac brand if they won't have enough vehicles to support stand-alone dealerships? Who will be selling Pontiacs? Now that the G8, RWD platform from Australia has been killed, what nich are they going to fill?

"Let them fail"..??...Wow, c`mon that should not be an option. Again, this does not just affect the auto industry. It is much bigger then that, open your minds people!

I say let them fail as well I am a firm beleaver of the "free market" The economy will correct it's self in time. for those of you who are interested how things work heres some reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics

When is the first payment due on this "loan"? Loaning money to people who couldn't afford to pay it back is what caused this mess. How can doing more of the same fix it? This is a classic definition of insanity.

let the money run out! Its economics 101. the government wouldnt help bailout anyone who reads this post if they needed business/financial help.

Nice, but how about cutting back on some of those TV commercials? I'm sure they run into the millions every day. The Volt will be ok, but Ford is developing one that will get 60 Miles per charge. If the cost of the Volt isn't consumer friendly then they can forget it. I understand it will be around $40,000. Way too high for the average consumer.