Do you see the same problem I see coming down the road with respect to reverse mortgages? I see that as being a huge bubble just waiting to inflate and explode. As I've said in the past...many of the folks who will be responsible for paying off that debt would never have qualified for the loan in the first place. Therefore, the lending institutions will once again be stuck with a lot of real estate and once again, the real estate market will be flooded, and once again, the value of homes will fall. Sound familiar?

gman:
Yes; that is all part of the ALT-A loan, which is going to be the next stage of the metl down. The sub primes are what went 1st, and have got all the talk for their role in the mortgage mess. The ALT-A is a the next wave of loans that will collapse, as they simply lagged behind the sub primes in the way they were structured. If you have not heard of "ALT-A" just google it, and you can read all them. It's beyond staggering when you look at the numbers and see just how big a house of cards this MASS leveraging (term used for debt to assets ratio) really was. No one even really knows how big the leveraging was; as the toxic assets can't be accurately measured. Many respectable analysts are putting it in the $20-50 TRILLION, yes trillion range. Even if at the low end, that number tells you just how severe this de-leveraging that is taking place now, is going to be. The billions the feds are throwing at this is nothing. It's like a squirt gun to put out a fire.

Kiowa: And now I am hearing that many of the mortgages that are going into default are SECOND mortgages, home equity loans, etc. And many of the homes have had add-ons and installed swimming pools. My wife was right...we should have bought a bigger house and waited for the big mortgage bail-out.

zoom: I think you miss my point. I have never made a mistake in analyzing the markets. I have done just fine with my analysis, over the years, thank you very much. I was one of the very few to say the dow would be below 8,000 in a couple years, back when it was in the 13,000 range. Markets are largely based off CONFIDENCE. If you honestly think the sell off has nothing to do with the policies coming out of this administration, God bless ya. Every time they propose something, the markets are voting on it by selling off; as no one has any confidence in the mass government take over that is under way. The stimulus bill passing saw the 1st sell off, and the recent budget proposal has seen the next sell off. The more people look into these massive government spending proposals (all largely on debt), the less confidence they have that it will do any good. Yes; the sell off was under way when Obama took office, but if he inspired true confidence and belief in his policies it would stabilize, and or even rally up. Which it did for a while after he announced his economic team lead by Geitner. After his ACTUAL policies, and plans, were learned that's when you saw another wave of sell offs.
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Oh, and I do NOT apologize for making $$$$ in a down market. I only wrote earlier that I feel for people who are loosing jobs, and getting hit from the economy which was created by horrible government policy. I make no apologies for making profit, and am very happy for others who do to.

gman: Yes indeed, that is another "bubble". That's what many who are "analyzing" this whole thing are not even taking into consideration. Keep in mind that most analysts (CBO included) NEVER predicted the collapse that has happened over the past year when they did their projections in 2007. That plays into the whole rational expectations theory. Projections you see from the CBO, and many others, never figure in human behavior; as it can't really be measured in any real sense. These projections that did not see the sub-prime disaster waiting to happen, are not seeing the ALT-A failure coming next, and then on to the next credit market failure. It's one massive house of cards that is only in the beginning stages of collapse.

In order to pull this country out of it's massive debt, each American would have to boot $47,000 from their own pocket to make that happen. ...OUR savior or, "crusader", if you will, (the U.S. government) plans on printing out that money and distributing it to the American people. Great idea! Don't give anyone any incentive to maybe do something more in their life and do great things that would not only benefit themselves, but, other people as well. Funny how the past means nothing to so many people who have been brainwashed to ignore it! Free enterprise through motivated individuals is what has made this country so great. The lack of these motivated individuals is what's killing this country, now as well. Socialist America on the horizon........God help us.

This stimulus sure has got the market moving....in reverse!

"An added bonus will be the government coming to the realization that most of us do not want them interfering with the private sector. A little regulatory oversight to prevent abuses is O.K. but it must be limited in its authority to obtain significant interest in the entities being regulated."

You don't speak for "most of us", considering the last Presidential election. You can't have limited oversight with limited consequences. That's how we got here! Yes, we don't want the government to run banks permanently (and they aren't now, contrary to the bleeting of the Libertarians and right wing), but if the banks had the ability to control themselves without oversight, the government would not have taken drastic steps to prevent a collapse of the credit markets, which is the lifeblood of commerce.

"factcheck, now I have heard it twice on two different networks. I guess I will believe them before I believe you."

Good luck. Are those the same networks that allowed people to say the stimulus bill includes a high speed rail line from L.A. to Las Vegas, which is false?

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay it's own debts as it goes"....Thomas Jefferson
This principle has been violated over and over again. This is what happens when we have too much govt. Too much govt. = bad govt
We're allowing the govt. to waste the labors of it's people because we the people are too busy looking for a free ride. It's never been a blessing in the past and it isn't one now! Wake up America, the hybernation is over!

"The obvious needs no outside backing and the willfully blind cannot be helped by any means." -Alfred Weggener

787 billion in a month. And for next month?

I never said giving no bid contracts to Halliburton, or anyone else for that matter, was the right thing to do. It just further illustrates my point that legislation has been and is still up for sale to the highest bidder. I am not trying to come across as a partisan here. The corruption is the only bipartisan thing to come out of Washington for decades. And this is the "business as usual" that has so many Americans upset. Each administration (no matter what party) builds up unsustainable debt and leaves it for the next administration to deal with...but the next administration never deals with it. Obama is just one more in a long line of tax and spend politicians. That isn't change we can believe in...it's business as usual on steroids. Obama is now the man in charge and what is doing? The same thing his predecessors have done for decades. So don't give me any of that partisan crap. The best way to do away with "partisanship" is to get rid of the partisans. An ant bed is a good analogy. You can tear down the mound but it will be rebuilt by morning. The only to get rid of it is to do away with the ants. Partisanship is just a distraction from the underlying problem of trying to remove failure or consequences from the equation. Self-correcting systems are based on rewards and consequences. Remove one of those things and the self-correcting mechanism is dismantled. It's like cutting your car in half and throwing half of it away. Then expecting the other half to operate the same as it did when the car was whole. Just doesn't work.

Why don`t you check it out instead of listening to some anti Obama rhetoric? Or better yet, use whatever common sense you have and do the math! All that he has spent is the stimulus, $787 billion, compare that to the national debt of $11 trillion. Which is bigger? Use your head! Where did all this money go that he has supposedly spent, what was it spent on?

factcheck, now I have heard it twice on two different networks. I guess I will believe them before I believe you.

Was it Kyl, from Arizona? Whoever it was is full of crap! So far all that Obama has passed is the stimulus bill for $787 billion. Bush doubled the debt to $11 TRILLION in his presidency, and that still leaves 42 other presidents. Obama has added $450 billion to this years deficit, that is all, lying by a Senator doesn`t make a fact. Do some checking.

Getting back to fact check. Senator Kyle of Colorada just made the statement on Fox News Sunday that I was trying to make earlier.
"Obama has added more debt to the Amarican Taxpayers then all US Presidents from Washington to his Inaugeration" Maybe I did not say it correctly before.

As for my so-called "lack of faith" - I do not question the general population's ABILITY to do better but I do see a significant portion of the population who would be UNWILLING to sit down and think of a better way. A perfect example would be the riots following the Rodney King incident. Rather than taking a lucid, well-thought out position to improve a situation, they burned down the only grocery store in their neighborhood. They didn't score big points with that kind of behavior. Instead, they added to a perceived stereotype that does nothing to further the cause of justice.

I'm not advocating a civil war...just conceding that is one of many possible options open to the people when the government goes awry (as it seems to be doing more and more every day). Other options include boycotts, elections, etc. For instance, we could put this whole banking issue to bed if everyone would just stop doing business with banks that take government money in the form of bail-outs. If no one is doing business with them, it won't matter how much the feds throw at them - they will still be insolvent. An added bonus will be the government coming to the realization that most of us do not want them interfering with the private sector. A little regulatory oversight to prevent abuses is O.K. but it must be limited in its authority to obtain significant interest in the entities being regulated.

gman5284 said: "However, I do believe that if we did revolt, we would be successful and America would emerge stronger (and smarter) than it appears to be now. But it WOULD be a tremendously ugly war with unspeakable atrocities being perpetrated on many innocents...definitely an ugly war...a necessary one, but an ugly none-the-less."

You're actually advocating a civil war? Really? Your lack of faith in America's ability to better itself is truely disturbing.

It is easy to dodge our responsibilities, but we cannot dodge the consequences of dodging our responsibilities. - Sir Josiah Stamp

Hey Zoom, let's see if these millions of recently unemployed folks line up for shovels for the so-called "shovel-ready" projects in the stimulus package. The same outfits who make big campaign contributions will be the ones who get the contracts and most of them are already close to being fully staffed. The stimulus package will not have a long-term positive effect on the job market nor will the bail-out packages improve poor decision-making skills of those who are bellying up to the government trough. So far, our government's policy's are lack-luster to say the least. To think, a bankrupt government can save bankrupt financial institutions...or a fiscally irresponsible government can alter the behavior of fiscally irresonsible individuals. Give me a break.

The analysis is over. Bush, Obama, and Congress have brought us to the point of no return. Prepare and take care of your families and your neighbors.

Kio, the CBO report does not suggest that doing nothing is better than a stimulus. Your "analysis" of the report is now wrong on two counts.

In the case of Obama and the markets, you have fallen into the common trap that correlation equals causation. And, if the real $$$ is apolitical, as you say, what would the Obama inauguration have to do with moving the market anyway? The markets were well on their way down before he was elected. Nobody suggested that the markets would suddenly climb after Obama took office.

Finally, nobody wants to hear AGAIN how you are making money from the misfortune of everybody else, in the same thread where you apologized for that, no less.

Revolt does not necessarily include violence.

We are talking about 2012-14, and by then the EFCA will be passed, and wages will be on the way up. Taxes have hit 20% of GDP in 1970, 1981, and early 2001, and no sign of violence yet.

Kiowa: Don't forget about these reverse mortgages being marketed currently. Many of the people who are going to be responsible for paying off that debt wouldn't have qualified for the loan in the first place. It's another bubble on the horizon.

BTW: Generally, what happens when taxation reaches the 19% - 20% mark there is a tax revolt. All the number crunching in the world doesn't change the fact that removing consequnces for irresposible behavior will not result in more responsible behavior.

The same CBO that stated another effect of the stimulus "The reduction in GDP is therefore estimated to be reflected in lower wages rather than lower employment". Lower wages? Yep another great thing to look forward too. How do we pay off the debt with lower wages?

CBO estimates of job creation from stimulus bill,800,000 to 2.3 million by end of 2009, 1.2 to 3.6 million by end of 2010, and 600,000 to 1.9 million by end of 2011.

"CBO anticipates that implementation of H.R. 1 would have a noticeable positive impact on economic growth and employment in the next few years." Right from the report itself. As of December they were saying the recession, already a year old, would ease by July, but that forecast is long gone. After 14 months, are we supposed to sit and wait another 18 like you say raf? The report says that GDP could have a small loss in 2014 and later because of larger deficits, but it is in the area of .0 to .2 at that time, with no loss of the millions of jobs the report says will be created by the stimulus. You should read it.

There is always hope and change. But the change we have left is the small amount in our pockets...

** 6.2% **
http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/02/28/u...

GDP was today revised to about -6.0$ in the 4th quarter..Which was much WORSE then most analysts projected.
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My point with the CBO is that they are a non partisan analysts who say the stimulus will do no better then doing nothing at all, and may even do more damage. My own analysis is that they are being to generous. Obama's own people are projecting $500 billion plus deficits all the way past 2015. That is off projections that GDP grows at a rate that I think is a complete pipe dream.
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This will be far WORSE then the Japan situation. No one is even talking about the next wave of the credit crisis, and that is in the ALT-A loans, which will then cascade to credit cards and other loan instruments. As GDP will continue to decline, and government spending goes up a rates never seen before in history, you literally set up for the mother of all economic collapses.
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There is a reason why the dow and S&P have lost 25% since the Obama inauguration, and why gold is up 25% since then. The real $$$ talks, and looks at things apolitically, and not on hope and change slogans. As I wrote on these blogs many times before Obama took office, you would be able to make a fortune short selling the markets. This February alone you have had the biggest decline in the market since 1932. At least one can cash in on the hope and chage; as it's pretty much an elevator straight down to hell at this point.
Enjoy the ride!

Everyone...Look at history and tell me what happens when taxation reaches 19% - 20% of GDP. Research carefully and make sure not to phrase your searches with any bias on either side. You will have to dig a little bit to get objective, non-partisan information but it is out there.

rockcofarmer: Is your real name Fidel Castro? This is not the direction America wanted to go. DrTalk is right, America does not favor this wasteful spending. It is only a matter of time before America does not favor our communist President either. Socialism does not work! Gone in four, thank god! And hopefully we will still have a free economy. Also, CallitasIseeit it will be a cold day in hell before I ever allow myself to be finger printed to be allowed to own my weapon. And I know other gun owners will agree because we are in the 99% of firearm owners who DO NOT break the law. Democrats, Hitler and Stalin all for some reason think gun control works. Scary simialarties!

Gun sales are skyrocketing and House Bill 45 is counteracting this with licensing and FINGERPRINTING of all gun owners. They are also presenting the Fairness Doctrine which will be a huge blow to free speech. Talk to your congressman now because if these two items happen the gun grab is sure to follow and the civil war resulting will make Iraq and Afghanistan look look a walk in the park.

Matthew - I, too, wonder about the possibility of "turning this around". I am not hopeful with the current situation being what it is. The following quote is from the Declaration of Independence:

“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness”

The idea is troublesome, though. Do enough Americans have it in them to stand up to a very powerful central government? I know some who would but I suspect there are many more who would not. Our founding fathers warned us again and again about giving the federal government too much power. Is it then inevitable that governments of men will eventually become corrupt? It seems to be a recurring theme no matter what the ideology.

However, I do believe that if we did revolt, we would be successful and America would emerge stronger (and smarter) than it appears to be now. But it WOULD be a tremendously ugly war with unspeakable atrocities being perpetrated on many innocents...definitely an ugly war...a necessary one, but an ugly none-the-less.

I find it very telling that gun and ammunition sales are way up. This reflects, at least to some degree, the people's level of trust in both their government and their neighbors. I have used the word "disturbing" several times in previous posts and it seems fitting. And if we trace back the cause of that lack of trust, it comes back to one thing...people say one thing and do something else - politicians and civilians, alike.

gman, I hear ya my friend. Remember this however....the U.S. government is made up of "American people". We need a transfusion. We need to unify as a country and get back to our roots. Our government/"we" have strayed away from principles too long and have no leaders with moral authority anymore. Character, honor and duty need to become "cool" again before this even stands a chance of getting turned around.

The American people will revive our economy...not the American government...'nuff said.

I beg to differ, sir. Welfare was supposed to be temporary..a hand-up.. if you will. However, I can show you many families of 3 to 5 generations of able-bodied people who have NEVER held a job. What's more, they will tell you proudly that they don't want a job. Why go to work for a paycheck when you can have one delivered to your door. These folks are not extreme examples. This metality is frighteningly widespread and common. The simple fact is that when you start to "temporarily" subsidize people, many will begin to expect it on a permanent basis. Benjamin Franklin said it best...We mustn't make people comfortable in their poverty. We must drive them out of it if necessary. (paraphrased but accurate in concept)...

Without failure, we have no objective standard by which to measure success...without consequences, we have no objective standard by which to measure reward. Let the banks fail, let the foreclosures move forward, and let the people AND banks learn from their mistakes. That's the beauty of a self-correcting system. If you remove the consequences for irresponsible behavior then you are removing the motivation for responsible behavior thus hiindering the self-correcting mechanism. No one held a gun to the people's heads to take out loans they couldn't afford and no one held a gun to the banks' heads to give loans that they should have known would go into default.

You can argue about whether or not we should have gone into Iraq all you wish. There are plenty of valid points to be made on both sides of the argument. Just because we didn't find WMD's certainly doen't mean that they aren't there. Afetr all, we know for a fact that Saddam used WMD's on his own people.

But all that jibber-jabber aside, the fact is that we ARE there and running away at this point won't solve anything. Let's do the job and be done with it. BTW: Communism was also an "concept" yet we were successful in dealing with it. But I am not interested in discussing the philosophy behind communism. It's enough for me to know that the good guys won that one. If we don't stand up against violent ideologues, who will?

Running up the national debt is fine when the GDP is steadily increasing. That is not happening now. Our rate of increasing GDP has been far outstripped by our rate of increasing debt.

I never said mass spending will increase GDP down the road. It's meant to stop the bleeding. GDP is falling right now, and will rise in the short term due to spending. Note that the latest CBO report projects the legislation will increase GDP in the short term, with increases diminishing over time. They also project the legislation will impact GDP by a worse case .2% decrease in GDP from the baseline starting around 2015. That's not the doom and gloom you seem to think it is.

The CBO also projects that the legislation will not have a negative effect on unemployment in the long term. Wages may drop, but unemployment will be reduced in the short term, and will level off (not increase) in the long term. In three to five years, we will be back to normal unemployment levels. That is certainly not what happened in Japan.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9987/...

The BIG difference when Reagan doubled the debt was that GDP (was termed GNP back then) more then doubled during his tenure. Debt is not all bad if you can grow the economy.
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I strongly disagree with zoom's comments that this mass spending will increase GDP down the road, and hence will be a decent "investment". The CBO has done extensive analysis of this, and said quite the contrary. The talking points the left is throwing out that FDR did not spend enough, or Japan did not spend enough in their crisis, is all theoretical nonsense; as I have said before. You are just using unproven economic theory when you say these things. I don't know of any country who has successfully spent their way out of a recession. Perhaps someone can enlighten me if it has happened somewhere. There have been many countries who have wrecked their economy with such policy. Mexico comes 1st to mind.
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Keep in mind that these TRILLIONS do have to be financed. Why do you think Hillary was over in Asia last week? She was begging China to buy up our massive deficit spending that is going to be taking place now. This deficit spending has become so massive, that's it's very likely it won't even be able to be financed (not enough foreign countries will be willing to buy the treasury bills). When that happens, you finance it by a massive increase in the $$$$$ supply.... you print it. That's when you get into all sorts of problems.
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If all this works, I will be the very 1st to admit I was wrong, and will give Obama praise for his bold moves. It's just that everything about this is fundamentally wrong to me. Much of this situations is not at all Obama's doing, of course. It has been the result of awful public policy that has built up for years (under both Bush and Clinton), and just finally reached the breaking point; as the economy has been built on a house of cards over the past couple decades. Many have been warning for years of the coming collapse.
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The "humpty dumpty" story seems cheesy, but really fits here; as the government can't really can't put the pieces back together at this point, and will likely just do more damage then good by their actions.

fatcheck~ absolutely! I agree it's been before Obama. I've always made it clear that when it comes to which party I favor, I favor neither! I favor a party that truth lies smack dab in the middle of. Unfortunately, we don't have much truth when it comes to political leadership. I will say, I absolutely disagree with Obama's approach to cleaning this mess up. Our leaders should be promoting free enterprise and rewarding those who get off their duffs and go out and make it happen for themselves. I also think it's important for people to be educated on "free enterprise" and what has happened to other countries that didn't see the need to promote it. We need to stop allowing our government (made up of citizens of this country)to become this countries conscience! What's made this country so great over the years is the synergy we've had from so many great people who were allowed to utilize their ideas and skills in our free enterprise system and in turn, be rewarded for them. When these same kinds of people are penalized for creating great ideas and applying them, we take huge steps backwards. It's the same as sending our children off to school and teaching them to just do enough to get by. It shouldn't be acceptable at any level.

factcheck- Many of us have been clear we are against borrow and spend politicians and big government growth - regardless of political party. And regardless if the government growth and spending is for invasions, bailouts, or impeding our personal freedoms. From the comments here, more and more and seeing through the false 2 party dichotomy.

Where was the term "generational theft" when Reagan and the two Bush`s were doubling the debt? It is a good term, but let`s not forget that it applies to Presidents before Obama as well. If all it takes to cut the deficit is printing more money it would have been done long ago.

Generational Theft
Although I agreed with him on very little, I have to give credence to a term used by John McCain to describe the financial behavior of our government: "Generational theft." With every "bailout" or "stimulous" package of bullets Washington sees fit to shoot into the corpse of our murder-victim economy, we are living off the prosperity of those to follow. We are not only eating our own seed wheat, but that of our children and grand children.

fatcheck, Just because people disagree with Obama's philosophies doesn't mean they want to see him fail! I don't agree with much of what he believes, however, I respect him as the leader of my country and will stand behind him. One thing that I can't figure out with your statement about the deficit... be careful where your numbers are derived from. Obama's plan to cut the deficit by printing more money to put into circulation is rediculous.

If Obama ends up doubling the debt, to $23 trillion, then we can gripe. Reagan raised the debt 150%, and Bush Jr. doubled it to $11.5 trillion. If Obama can halve the deficit by 2012 like he wants, it will be a great achievement. I don`t understand why anyone would be hoping to see him fail because then the country will be even worse off than now. A little optimism would be nice.

foofoogirl: I thought I would just bring up the fact that Obama is already married, please get over your schoolgirl crush!! you sound like a 7th grader! Michelle might not take to kindly to your affection for her husband. If he told you to drink the koolaid would you do that too?? Sounds like it!

Obama feels it's fashionable to reward mediocrity in today's society.... the last thing we need from the leader of our country is someone who likes to talk a big game yet settle for average!
http://orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com/blog...

Obama is not going to cure cancer any more than JFK would have walked on the moon.

As the promises began rolling during last nights speech I turned to my wife and said "honey if he keeps at this pace he is going to tell us he is going to cure cancer". Less than two minutes later I felt like Nostradamus.

"Look, the best way to put people to work IS NOT to pay them to stay home."

No one is being paid to stay home. Most families can't live on unemployment, and it isn't permanent. None of the stimulus will pay people enough to not look for work.

"The best way to win a war IS NOT to run away."

You can't win a war on terror, any more than you can win a war on drugs. You can't defeat a concept. The best way to win a war is to not start one in the first place (remember, the U.S. started the preemptive war in Iraq).

"The best way to get out of debt IS NOT to spend a bunch of money you don't have."

Well, the goal of a recovery plan is not to get out of debt...the goal is to bring the economy to recovery. Debt is a necessity. Most economists say that something has to be done, but they disagree on how much. Yes, in the short term, the GDP will shrink, but it would shrink for far longer if nothing is done. Research Japan's 'lost decade' for the most recent example of not doing enough, quickly enough.

"BTW: Since Obama signed the stimulus package, the economy is now his baby...like it or not. He took ownership when he signed the bill. Blame whoever you wish, but is now HIS baby."

Of course the economy is now his responsibility. He is the President. That doesn't absolve Bush and others from the horrible policies that got us here. The economy will recover sometime in the next four years, therefore, you are already giving Obama credit for the recovery. In your case, a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in awhile.

Fear not! Today Obama will preside over a "Fiscal Resposibility Summit". A Fiscal Responsibility Summit?! Are you kidding me? We are told that we all need to start living within our means by a man who, shortly thereafter, signed a $787 billion "stimulus package"...and every penny has been placed on the taxpayers' credit card.

Now, he is going to have a fiscal responsibility summit. Beware: There is no way that the man's words can be reconciled with his actions. If I'm not mistaken, that's a working definition of deceit. This is getting more and more disturbing every day.

Look, the best way to put people to work IS NOT to pay them to stay home.

The best way to win a war IS NOT to run away.

The best way to get out of debt IS NOT to spend a bunch of money you don't have.

This isn't rocket science.

BTW: Since Obama signed the stimulus package, the economy is now his baby...like it or not. He took ownership when he signed the bill. Blame whoever you wish, but is now HIS baby.

I really was willing to give Obama a chance. After the announcement of his recent $75 to $150 billion bailout plan of the stupid and or greedy people who are now defaulting on their mortgages, I am done supporting him. If you listen to him outline this mess of a plan, not only does he want to provide for a principal reduction which, of course, will be subsidized by you and I......he also wants to give these people $1000 incentives on making their payments on time. Seriously....WTF!!!!! Nothing like rewarding the stupid and greedy....I was smart--I bought a house I could afford even though I was approved for something that would make me struggle. When this plan does go into effect, everyone should stop paying their mortgages and go hit up the government for some of this free money! The only justification his people could give for rewarding the greed on the backs of those who played by the rules was that foreclosures hurt communities as a whole. I call BS on this. There were two foreclosed houses in my area. Two really nice families who had rented and had been saving for years just bought and moved into each of them......

The President is only one part of the equation. Congress has just as much, if not more say, in the budget then does the President. Clinton did indeed have a surplus, but it was not till a Republican landslide took over congress in 94. A congress that ran on balance budgets as part of the "contract with America". I'm not saying all credit goes to the Gingrich lead congress, but it's ludicrous to say it was all Clinton who balanced those budgets. Clinton actually signed onto many of the conservative ideas from congress (welfare reform, NAFTA, balancing the budget)
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As some have posted, debt is not always a bad thing. However; that is only true IF you are growing in GDP. GPD is essentially the national income (it's the total of all goods and services produced). Much like personal debt, it's not that big of a deal if you have some debt, as long as it's not a huge %age of your income. When your debt level starts exceeding your income level, thats when you start running into big problems; as I'm sure most know. Thats the big problem we face here. Not only are we piling up massive debt with no end in sight, but the GDP is SHRINKING.

I was answering a question about whose deficit it was. It is your opinion that the stimulus won`t work, I don`t really know if it will. The economists are divided about it, some say it should have been more. If you want to get into the deficit as a percentage of GDP, then history has proved that Democratic Presidents have a lower percentage than Republicans, especially Reagan, Bush Sr., and Jr. 14 banks have been taken over already this year, and CITI and Wells Fargo are very close to being next. It`s hard to see how it is in the best interests of the country to sit by and do nothing.

It's not a matter of IF the stimulus will be a disaster, it's just a matter how big of one it will be.
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Does it really even matter "who's" deficit/debt it is at this point? You have had mass deficit spending from Republican congresses and Presidents, and democratic congresses and presidents. As I posted below, it's just becomes more of a ticking time bomb as it becomes a larger and larger portion of GDP (the true way to measure it). The real scary part is that GDP is shrinking MORE then most have anticipated. Friday you will get a revised GDP of the 4th Q. Most analysts say the revision will show in the neighborhood of -5% growth. Debt can not be sustained when when GDP shrinks, and is why this insane spending will eventually collapse the entire fabric of the economic system.

What did I say about believing Obama, besides the fact that 95% of taxpayers will get a tax cut? You don`t know if the stimulus will work, a little, a lot, or not at all, nobody does. The deficit coming next fall is a Bush deficit, his budget, his TARP, only about $185 billion will be Obama`s. Any newspaper, any news on TV, any source on the net will tell you these facts, even Fox!

fatcheck~ grab your pants and pull them back up! Obviously Obama did his part by charming them off you!

Read a paper and surf the net? That's the solution to finding the truth? Which internet source and which newspaper publication trims the "fat" and leaves just the truth? Enlighten me, please!!

If the stimulus bill is a disaster won`t be known for a long time, but the BUSH deficit at the end of the fiscal year will be $1.5 trillion! Read a paper, surf the net, open your mind to something besides Rush!

lol...wow, what logic. Yep it is still Bush's fault, yeah we no he is no longer there but that doesn't matter. He is the one that made the gigantic disaster of a stimulus bill. I bow to your unrepentant knowledge as the "budget master".

Duh!! We are operating on the last Bush budget until the fiscal year ends in the fall. No amount of your spin can change that, it is the last Bush deficit, and it will be $1.5 trillion! Only about $185 billion of the stimulus money will be added to that budget, not the whole $787 billion. Do some reading instead of blindly sticking up for the Republicans!

"Out of what demented universe are you getting three times more deficit?"
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The one where Bush no longer is President and Obama is...guess you haven't kept up on the news. From inauguration day forward it is the new Presidents spending that has increased the deficit not the old Presidents.

raf are you thick or what? Obama hasn`t had a budget yet, yes the stimulus will be included in that budget, but he hasn`t got one yet. The deficit this fiscal year is a Bush deficit, predicted at $1.5 trillion. Obama`s predicted first deficit is $1.7 trillion. Out of what demented universe are you getting three times more deficit?

"Could it be said that the Republicans are politically shorting the recovery?"
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The current CBO estimates stated the recovery would happen without a stimulus bill in less than 18 months.

"The stimulus bill had zero republicans in the house vote for it, and like 2 or 3 Republicans in the senate vote for it. Probably a very shroud move politically as if the thing bombs like most think it will, it's the democrats holding the bag."

Interesting point. Could it be said that the Republicans are politically shorting the recovery? After all, they only come out ahead politically if the recovery is a failure.

"Obama hasn`t got a deficit yet, so he hasn`t raised it. "
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Ummm what was that 800+++ Billion dollar thingy signed called, uh, oh, yeah the stimulus bill. This bill alone has raised the deficit to over 3 times it's highest. And the tough question here...who signed it?

Bush deficit, $1.5 trillion, Obama hasn`t got a deficit yet, so he hasn`t raised it. You`ll have to wait and see. Circumstances have gotten worse just since the election, read the news!

Lakennedy:
Both sides have used deplorable tactics in this "meltdown"..WAY over hyping it, to get legislation passed. Bush/Paulson claimed the economy was going to come to a total stop if TARP was not passed the following Monday..Remember it did NOT pass the 1st time around, and LOW AND BEHOLD things in the country were still functioning. If TARP never passed, all evidence says things would actually be better off. Look what it was intended to do....ease liquidity, and provide stability in the financial sector..Instead the banks have hoarded the $$$ to shore up their balance sheets, liquidity has NOT eased, no stability has happened as the financial sector as you have mass sells offs week after week on the markets(stocks like bank of America and Citi are down over 90% the past 6 months). The only real worry you had if TARP did not pass was mass failures of giant banks, in which the FDIC still comes in to bail them out regardless.
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If the stimulus plan did NOT pass I believe things would be FAR better off in the long run. You are going to have tremendous economic pain regardless what passes, or what does not pass, at this point. As I posted earlier; even non partisan analysts like the CBO have said this will do much more damage then good.
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Should be noted that TARP had very big democratic support, even though it was a "Bush/Paulson" proposal. Sadly both Presidential candidates even supported the thing. The stimulus bill had zero republicans in the house vote for it, and like 2 or 3 Republicans in the senate vote for it. Probably a very shroud move politically as if the thing bombs like most think it will, it's the democrats holding the bag.

"Bush`s last deficit is going to be about $1.5 trillion"
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Revising Obama history already?

"So Obama was supposed to do exactly what he said during the campaign even though circumstances have gotten worse?"
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You mean the one from 4 months ago? In less than 2 months as President he has raised the national deficit to 3 times it's highest level. The "world" has not collapsed in 4 months, yet all we hear about is the "crisis I inherited". He has been a part of Washington Since Jan 2005 and as such he not only asked for the job (not inherited) he has been part of the problem. The same problem the rest in Washington have---say one thing and do another; say anything to get elected.

fool-on-the-hill:
Short selling isn't always about betting against America. Often you are just betting against HYPE, or very poorly managed companies. Even when the markets were good, you could often make good short sold plays on companies that were way over hyped, or horribly managed. GM is a good example of that. It has been sinking the last decade. Short sellers often just have it in their blood. Very cynical, contrarian, betting against hype. My philosophy was much the same when I bet sports professionally. You just find the biggest hype teams, and find the spots to go against them.
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Only 2% of people make $250,000 or more. So Obama was supposed to do exactly what he said during the campaign even though circumstances have gotten worse? That would be stupid. McCain wouldn`t have either. 95% get $800 instead of $1000, big deal, at least he followed through on it. Bush`s last deficit is going to be about $1.5 trillion, and he "borrowed" over a trillion from the SS trust fund. I`m surprised anyone would want to come in and try to clean up this economic mess.

http://taxcut.barackobama.com/ looks like his plan he sold to the "people" is not the plan he put in place.

raf, no math my son looked it up someplace. 955 of taxpaying households are at $167,000 and below. 80% are at $65,000 and below. 50% are at $35,000 and below.

I essentially agree with your point, gman5284, but I don't believe term limits will substantially improve the situation. The oligarchical team of legislators, lobbyists and media will simply find another way.

I think George Will summed it up best by saying (as best I can recall), "We will never take money out of politics until we take politics out of money."

kiowamohican:
I just now read your Feb 19th response. I stand corrected on what appeared to be a "gleeful" attitude.

You do, however, accept the fact that you are betting for failure when you broadly short sell the market, right? Under the circumstances, if you are able to restrain your glee with each down-tick of the economy then you are certainly a better man than I.

I'm just wondering, in all honesty, what would happen if we didn't pass this stimulus package? Nevermind that, remember all of the emergency behind passing the bank bailouts? It had to be done RIGHT NOW. What would have happened if we didn't do it? I mean, really, what would be the ramifications of not bailing out anyone or anything? Of no stimulus package?
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I'm only asking because I hate the fear-mongering. We democrats p**sed and moaned about Bush using these fear tactics against the masses, but what is happening now?

officerfriendly~ Ya think??!!
http://orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com/blog...

factcheck --- "The top 5% of taxpaying households starts at $167,000."
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Your math is in complete opposition with the administrations campaign and white house web sites stating that tax cuts for those making less than 250,000 (95%).

Heres an interesting chart:

year....debt in billions of USD.....%debt of GDP
1970..........389.2...............................37.6
1980..........930.2...............................33.3
1990..........3,233...............................55.9
2000..........5,674...............................58
2005..........7,933...............................64.6
2007..........9,008...............................65.5
2008..........10,699.8.........................74.6 (EST)

Notice the debt getting closer and closer to be 100% of GDP, that's the point where it will be on the tipping point. I love how we are now told that the debt no longer matters. Just look at the numbers, and if you understand anything about economics and finance, you can see this is just a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. No one cares though, as long as we fix the problems today. Who cares if it will destroy the entire country a few years down the road.

whythink,

You hit the nail on the head! And if the Republicans were controlling everything the democrats would have done the same thing. Maybe we need Ross Perot for all this bailout mess ;-) He has color charts :-)

I say those of us that haven't lived beyond our means should be able to trade up and switch houses with those living beyond their means instead of giving them free money to help them pay for a mortgage that is too big for them. We should be the ones rewarded with government subsidy. They should have to move into smaller places that require less of a monthly payment.

Good point Factcheck (McCain railing against items in stimulus package). But we must remember, McCain is also a political animal. His railing was not so much a railing against specific items (although he did name a few of the more controversial ones) as it was an objection to the political nature of the bill and the political philosophies after which appears to be fashioned. Unfortunately, McCain is just not that astute of an observer of political philosophy. He knows something is wrong the bill...he just can't put his finger on it. This is all too common in our political leaders these days. Everything is a knee-jerk reaction without considering possible outcomes and consequences (both intended and unintended).

Personally, I didn't like any of the candidates in this last election. Our two party political system has ceased serving us well and now serves career politicians (both republican and democrat). The best way to start solving this mess is to have congressional term limits. Two (2) terms, consecutive or not, and you're done. You can sign a petition for them at the U.S. Term Limts website. If 75% of the states propose the amendment by convention and ratify the amendment (either by convention or legislation), it would become law. It should be mentioned that our constitution has never been amended using this method but the method is recognized in the 10th amendment.

The fact remains:

Taking on any debt without a viable plan to handle that debt will only get you in trouble. When you take on more debt than you can handle, someone else has to pay the bill. How long can something like that go on before people say "enough!"? And, at this point, I have not seen any sign of a plan for handling the massive debt being incurred. Adding another trillion dollars to an already unmanageable debt is madness. This guy stands in front of the nation and says, "We all have to start living within our means..." and moments later approves the spending of one trillion dollars that we don't have. How on earth does one reconcile that statement with that action?

I'm just sayin'....

The top 5% of taxpaying households starts at $167,000.

raf, it could be close to 95%, because people making $65,000 and less make up over 80% of all taxpayers. By the time you figure in deductions and exemptions, the percentage will go up. If our elected representatives wanted to read the bill, they had plenty of chance after it was passed by the House and Senate, they would only have had to read the parts changed in conference after that. McCain spent hours on the Senate floor railing against everything in the bill, somebody must have read it or else he was making things up.

To all the republicans against this bill, how many will have the courage to say thanks but no thanks to the money. The republican representatives who voted no while offering no alternative solutions will all make their, anti-stimulus speech but take the money.

A bunch of hypocrites.

RAF:
No surprise at all.
The only ones who will be getting a tax "cut" are the ones who don't pay any federal taxes. They will get a tax credit, errrr; welfare check. Any tax cut, or rebate check, you get will simply be off set by the huge tax increases that are coming in almost every state. Our state is over $6 billion in the whole, thanks to years of reckless spending. Now come the mass tax increases, and fees, to balance the budget, because you know there is no way in hell they will ever cut spending to balance the budget! Pretty much all economists agree that tax increases are disastrous in a recession.

foofoo's comments are a classic example of why we are in trouble. It USE to be that Americans wanted to leave a BETTER America for their kids. Today's generation is all about me me me. No one cares what damage will be done to future generations as long as they get what they feel they are entitled to, RIGHT NOW.
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Remember the comments made by many Obama supporters after he won "Now I don't have to worry about my mortgage, or putting gas in my car". It's all about what the government is going to give you today. At one of the anti-stimulus rallies I saw the perfect sign. It said: "GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR AT LEAST A FREE BIG SCREEN TV"!

So much for 95% of Americans getting a tax cut. Remember all the talk of everyone making less than 250grand will get a cut---dreamers!
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From the AP today "But the credit is phased out for higher-income taxpayers, defined as individuals who have a modified adjusted gross income of between $75,000 and $95,000, and married couples filing jointly who make between $150,000 and $190,000. Thus, the administration says many of them will see little or no change in their paychecks"
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And who here is surprised besides the blind followers?

Political parties create an artificial "us versus them" mentality that deflects focus from the truth. (posted by fool on the hill)

Hey FOTH,

This IS problematic but I believe it has gone farther than political parties at this point. Now both the people and the government are using "us and them" vernacular which indicates an extremely disturbing divergence of views between the people and those who claim to represent the people. I also believe that congressional term limits might help to alleviate some of this disturbing trend. There is a website where you can show your support for congressional term limits. I don't remember the site but you can find it by "Googling" U.S. Term Limits. In fact, I think USTL is part of the website name.

Additionally, Obama says there are no earmarks in the stimulus package. That's quite a statement when no one in congress read the thing before they passed it. Obama said there would be no more "business as usual" in D.C. However, "business as usual" has been for the gov't. (no matter who is in power) to dig us deeper and deeper in debt without any real plans for managing the debt. Here we see Obama doing the same thing (which, by definition, is "business as usual"). Most politicians are the same. If they told us the truth during campaigns they would say, "I'm not much good at my job but I'm going to take your hard-earned money and throw it away...vote for me." That would, indeed, be an honest politician. Obama comes from one of the most, if not the most, corrupt political system in the nation (Chicago). Therefore, what should we reasonably expect from him?

foofoogrl:

Some of us are concerned with the condition we will leave this country in for our children. There are only 3 ways to handle this debt:
1) significantly raise taxes (bad)
2) significantly inflate our currency (bad)
3) significantly cut government spending (good)
Besides, a pres who says "we all have live within our means" and then approves spending $787 billion that we don't have is being disingenuous, to say the least.

Yah know what ALL?? We all have enough time to be dead when we are dead!!! Why not start living, and STOP killng ourselves? You all want to focus on imagined negatives. You know what???????????? OBAMA is PRESIDENT!!!! In case you didn't get that message, he is president, and whoever you are, you can't do anything about it, so you know what????????? GET ON WITH LIFE AND except what now is, and enjoy your now. DEATH will be upon us soon enough. WHY waste your minutes with such negativity??????

from usaret post >>>> Went to recovery.gov and learned that there is nothing there. Click here and you get a chart. Click again and your back to where you started.
Went to search and put something in and was taken back to the beginning again. Guess I could have loaded up the whole bill, but why should I read it if our congressmen didn't (sarcasim here).
Also, seems Sen. Reid's $8 billion is listed under other (very transparent).

Did you forget to press 1 for english?? J/K
LOL STAY SAFE!!! and hold onto your wallet!!

I wrote about George Washington in his address upon leaving office, and the fate of Newly formed America. Not only did he warn future America about mass public debt as I wrote earlier in this thread, but he also warned about the danger of political parties!

fool-on-the-hill:
Just to clarify my take (as writing on a blog often does not show ones real "feelings") I do NOT have glee that things are falling apart. I am a Christian man, and I really do care for my neighbor, and don't want to see anyone loose their job, or fall upon hard times. I admit, I often get carried away in my blog postings, but that's often just to get people thinking, be sarcastic about ridiculous statements that are often made, or just get reactions. So often times people on these blogs just throw out political talking points, or links to some partisan site. Are people not capable of thinking for them self any longer? Rockofarmer below wrote something about "us Republicans". I assume that is directed at me, and the ones hammering this futile stimulus bill. Funny part is that I'm not even a Republican. I am a libertarian, and have said that on many occasions on these blogs. I don't read talking points from either side. All my analysis is my own thought, and I use my own brain to make a living.
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In my posts I am simply pointing out REALITY. Not just spewing about hope, change, need to do something, go where ever the bus takes us, blah blah. I do a lot of my own research; from technical, to fundamental, to historical analysis of business, economic philosophy, and monetary policy; as I am a market trader.
Things right noware much worse then many want us to believe by all my analysis; and that I have no glee about that. I just trade the markets in a way that I can take advantage of the REALITY of the situation at hand. No hope, change and mass expansion of government is going to change that reality. The ones who actually believe that are going to be very disappointed in a few years.

In general, Dr Talk and tjncj, I agree but take it one step further. I believe that political parties, per se, are at the core of many personal disagreements on issues. It's not just Republicans or Democrats. Political parties create an artificial "us versus them" mentality that deflects focus from the truth. Folks tend to suspend their own good judgment and common sense when it involves a member of their own club or clan.

I agree with tjncj. Neither party is worthy to be in charge. That's why I voted for Chuck Baldwin.

rockcofarmer, could you please be a little more specific to whom you are directing your comments?

rockcofarmer,

You're wrong. The public is not in favor of the stimulus bill. Only 38% believe it will work.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c...

And I have given up on both self serving, crooked, pork eating political parties. Neither is worthy to be in charge.

If my house was on fire and I poured gasoline on it I too would be "doing something".

You republicans must have missed the Nov elction. You lost. Your ideas lost. As they say, elections have consequenses. The public is for this. Just because you aren't, tough. Time after time you post examples that you claim as fact, when after a little research it turns out to be a republican talking point that is false. Go figure.
==We now have an administration that is trying to do something to get this economy going again. This is not a problem that they created, rather one they inherited. Maybe you also forgot the Surplus that we had in 2001. By your example that was the next generations money, maybe you shouldn't have wanted to spend it as bad as you did. That off-budget expense of the Iraq war is also going to be passed on to the next generation. You never said a peep about that. You know why, because your hypocrits. Every idea that they have may not work perfectly but at least they're trying something.

Unfortunately, kiowamohican, I agree with most of your analysis. I say "unfortunately" because I don't share your glee and do hope you are proven dead wrong. (Hope is quite different from avoiding truth by ignoring facts, though.)

I do wish everyone would stop calling this current situation a recession. Yes, there is a recession on top of the real problem. It reminds me of that scene from the Wizard of Oz, where Toto reveals what's really going on behind that curtain. Without a recession, all the smoke and mirrors could still be doing their magic.

RAF:
You are very much correct. If one wants to make the argument for stimulus via "shovel ready projects" that is one thing. ENTIRELY different when stimulus now includes bailing out state governments debt, expansion of medicare, welfare, education, ext. All that is in this 1,000 page bill that no one in congress even read. If one wants to argue those social programs need more funding, fine. Do so in context of the BUDGET, and appropriations, not an economic stimulus bill. This is just a way to ramrod through every mass spending project that every big government socialist has wanted in the name of "economic crisis".
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The consequences of this stimulus will, of course, be a disaster down the road. The markets all ready sold off big time on news of this stimulus passing, just as I told you all they would weeks ago. I personally can't complain, because the hope and change has been easy $$$, via shorting the markets. The real $$$ knows this is all one giant house of cards waiting to fall. You think we are in "crisis" right now. Trust me when I say you have not seen ANYTHING yet. The sub prime melt down was just the 1st stage. The ALT-A will be the next phase, and after that it cascades to vast other credit areas. The banks and auto's are just the 1st wave of bankruptcies. I could write pages of major companies that are on the verge of bankruptcy. One of which is going to really shock people, and create all sorts of logistic problems in about 3 months. The politicians literally have no idea what is coming. They will not be able to run the printing presses fast enough to keep up with bailouts/government take overs, that has now become the policy to "save" the economy.

From the www.recovery.gov website "* Tax Relief - includes $15 B for Infrastructure and Science, $61 B for Protecting the Vulnerable, $25 B for Education and Training and $22 B for Energy"
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I didn't know tax relief went to infrastructure, science, protecting the vulnerable, education, training, and energy. In order to provide a relief these would have been producers of tax; these are recipients of tax, not producers....change we can believe in.

“the truth has been altered so much that I believe it would be impossible for us to even begin to have faith that we really know what is going on in Washington. And quite frankly, I believe that is the way it shoudl be for the most part”
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Like I said in my previous post you talk just like a member of the media today…very scary.

And quite honestly, most on here don't comprehend the whole picture, they fill in the blanks as they see fit to back up their way of thinking. because seriously, government information is dumbed down so far for us "common folk" that the truth has been altered so much that I believe it would be impossible for us to even begin to have faith that we really know what is going on in Washington. And quite frankly, I believe that is the way it shoudl be for the most part....if we knew the whole truths of the political doings, our country would be in constant caios. I am quite comfortable saying that these same people would be the same people that gripe about their roads being singled out to be the last ones to be plowed. I believe most will never be satisfied, no matter the PLAN.

Went to recovery.gov and learned that there is nothing there. Click here and you get a chart. Click again and your back to where you started.
Went to search and put something in and was taken back to the beginning again. Guess I could have loaded up the whole bill, but why should I read it if our congressmen didn't (sarcasim here).
Also, seems Sen. Reid's $8 billion is listed under other (very transparent).

Do we really have any choice but to believe and have faith? If we all fall victim to the reality of the what if's, we all will be a bunch of paranoid, suicidal, panick stricken messes. I prefer to keep my head up, and out of the sand and out from under rocks, and live conservatively, and look at life through a tint of rose rather than a shadow of gray that will only cloud my entire exsistence! You all have the freedom to live life in constant worry, but I choose to truly try and not be consumed by the negativity of the unknown.... Just a suggestion...try clipping coupons, they do equal money, and can give you something to look forward to every Sunday! ;)

Don_Diego - a government website ? for all the facts ? Yeah...the government always tells us just like it is :)

just so that everyone can check their facts instead of quoting something they heard on Rush Limbaugh or saw on MSNBC: www.recovery.gov

Foofoo talks like a member of the media today “all is good, just believe”…this, sad to say, is how many Americans and most of the media view the current administration. That is truly scary.

And yes the double m was put in there because I wanted it there!! P~ LOL

What rock did foofoo come out from under? Are there more of them?? good greif.........Makes me feel so good to be on a bus not knowing where the heck we are going except ....I better not go there for fear of getting booted off the blog.......a new word for everyone to use from now on

bammanomics 101

STAY SAFE!!

<<<<<<<<<takes a bow. :^)

Foofoogirl-If you haven't got a cabinet position in the new administration already then you should pull your head out of the sand and head to Washington.

Should also be noted that when George Washington left office, one thing he warned about for the newly born America, was a large public debt! hmmmm, how many TRILLIONS do we have to get before it's considered large?

Good point coast
Wasn't to long ago we heard all the outrage about the record Bush deficits. Now we are going to run deficits into the TRILLIONS of $$'s annually, and a national debt that will double to over $20 trillion in no time. We are told now that this is "no big deal" by the same ones who went on and on about it's reckless nature when Reagan and Bush ran it up. Now the talking points from the left are that it's like a car loan repayment. RIIIIIIIGHT. Keep drinking the koolaide.
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When the debt is projected to be near 90% of GDP this fiscal year, and keeps every year, while GDP keeps on shrinking. Yeah; that's no problem at all. Those interest payments will be no concern at all. This is beyond comical to hear this all. What about when social security goes bust in a few years?? HAHA. Has anyone even projected that into their calculations? That's estimated to cost about $10 trillion when that goes bust, and we have to bail that out. If one does not think debt is a problem, perhaps they should read their history more. Debt has brought down one civilization after another throughout world history.

Obama keeps telling us how bad the economy is. Even after he tells us this "stimulus package" is needed immediately. That doesn't help anything. People hear that and start to believe it and start to not spend money and hurt the economy even more. He needs to be more positive in his speeches. He got all over Bush for using fear mongering and he is doing the same thing. I really wish he would be more transparent in his administration liked he promised and post the bill online so the American people who are paying for these bills can look at them with their own eyes and see wear our money is going. They pasted this bill through without anybody even reading it. We rely way to much on the media to tell us what is in these bills.

We all talk about how the generations to come are the ones who will have to pay for what is happening now. Isn't that what life is all about, planning for the future? And most times consequences of the past are dealt with by the future. That is just the way it is. And if we were able to be the recipients of here and now, then there would be no stock market, banks etc. EVERYTHING, whether it be debt or reward is a process of future planning. Not all futures are Bright and Shiney unfortuneately.

It would have more sence to vote in the independant party rather than the same old garbage this country been through time and time again. The independant party would have made changes the good of the people and not them selfs.

I am personally content with listening to him, that is really all I can do, along with everyone else, as long as his plans get passed. I tend to have faith in a person with great character, and that he does. Really, does worrying get us anywhere better than where we are right now? No. And really do you or I have any control over what is happening? No. So, basically, we have no choice but to ride along on this bus to where-ever. And I choose to have the hope that "where-ever" is better then "here". And yes, he can come and read me the telephone book, I probably would understand that more than most of the political nonsense we are told. What we are told, and what is the whole truth are two completely different things.

Kind of funny that those who say deficit spending is fine, are the ones who were throwing fits when Reagan and Bush ran up massive deficits. Does it really even matter what party is in office any more? It's funny to hear each side attck the other on these forums. Both parties have run this country in the wrong direction. I sure don't claim to be an economists like many on here are, but I see massive spending and waste from both parties, while the average Joe like me gets screwed, and the bill for it all gets put off to my kids.

lakekennedy...if only you knew!

And for the record the republican bailout (democratic congress approved) last year was a disaster as well.

foofoo-What is your estimation of the effectiveness of the stimulous package? Are you looking at the costs for future generations, the amount of pork shoved down our throats or are you just content to "listen to him read the phone book"?

DRTALK...please take your expertise (which I doubt is correct) to the board and run for a seat....then maybe you will have the authority to say what is right or wrong, until then, please agree to disagree with others. If people have faith, moral is up, and that is what we need. Is it your goal to knock down any hope a person may have? Just please stop. I am sure you can find many REPUBLICAN's who agree with you, and can talk about your ill feelings on our wonderful president. Please just stop kicking us who have faith in the gut.

I absolutely LOVE this man who goes by the name of Obama. I could totally listen to him read the phone book. And I TRULY believe with my whole heart he is going to bring our pride back to American Citizens. Please, have faith!

Joe Biden refered to it as "our so-called stimulus package."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/...

Prove us wrong Lakennedy. I have a job, live within my means and am continuing to spend as usual to help out the economy. I also have a MBA, how about you?

Anybody who is saving money is helping the economy, anybody who is spending money they actually have is helping the economy, anybody (including the government) that borrows money they don't have is hurting the economy.

I didn't realize we had so many economists here in Janesville. It's amazing how many of you know exactly how to fix our economy...any chance of any of you actually DOING something, or are you going to just keep whining?

Bush's stimulus plan was bad, but Obama's is even worse. It's completely backward. It should let individuals keep more of each paycheck (like hundreds of dollars, not 13 dollars) and should have reduced government spending, especially all the wasteful spending.

I need to modify justsaynotomath's comment:

Obama has not even been in office a month. In that time he has done more to destroy the American economy than Bush did in 8 years.

this is oneo of the worst stimulus plan that the govermaent has ever came up with, it will fail along with everything else obama tries to do

I agree JSNTM. With this stimulus bill he has done more in a month to move us to a socialist regime and bankrupt our future generations than any president in history. All this while giving me an additional $13 per week while loading his supporters pork barrels to the brim.

Also, its nice to see you haven't lost your polite, professional ways!

Exactly! We have two parties, Rep. & Dem. with their own version of "right" and "wrong"!
We're doomed right out of the gates with that scenario. Right and wrong was figured out centuries ago and it will never change. Still, we have people in power that continue to do their best to compromise those principles for the good of .......? The many? I don't think so.

Deficit spending during hard times can be justified, given certain conditions that is. If you're going to take a balance sheet approach --something very foreign to our federal government-- then how does your balance sheet look with an ACTUAL federal obligation of $65.5T and climbing, janesvillian?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?f...

Bogus Arguments About the Burden of the Debt
http://economistsview.typepad.com/econom...
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Summarized: "Liabilities have passed to future generations, but so have the corresponding assets." The basic thesis is sourced from a standard economics textbook.
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Deficits are not inherently bad, any more than a home loan or a car loan is inherently bad. A recession is the time that the Keynesian model adopted by most Western governments for the last half-century when deficits are most needed, because they replace the role in the economy played by aggregate consumer demand. The alternative is what economists call an "L-shaped recovery" -- which is frankly no recovery at all.

"As long as they can keep the American public pitted against itsself with the Demo vs. Repub divide, our house will fall. The situation now is not Dem vs Rep; it is the people vs. a tyranical govenment."

Bingo on that first sentence! However, our current form of government is closer to fitting the description of an oligarchy. (That is not to say there are no tyrants!) I just believe that "the ruled vs the ruling class" would be a more constructive way of looking at it. One doesn't have to look to hard to find numerous examples of a system with two clearly distinct sets of standards.

cappyman~~ start fresh? With what? We have no people worthy of being leaders that are "on deck" to lead this country. The only people out there that would be able to come in and actually lead with character and integrity are barred from the gates by the barbarians already in office. They don't want to see things get done on the basis of truth and principle. It doesn't serve the needs and wishes of the selfish fools already in place. Thus, the need for the stimulus package by our govt! They just keep throwing the "feed" out to us and while we're chowing down, they're building the pen around us, section by section. Ask these socialist countries what happens when the pen is completed and the gate get's attached!

Unfortunately, when it comes to voting, everybody hates Congress, except for their own guy.

lovemycountry: well said the blame goes to both not one party. none of these idiots get it. vote the whole lot of them out and start fresh.

Very well put, lovemycountry. I'll second that.

This $3.2T (after interest and maintenance) spending bill debt is being placed on the backs of our children and grandchildren to repay. It's morally reprehensible. Democrats and Republicans are equally to blame for the federal government spending we as voters have allowed to escalate.

BTW I drive a ten year old car (for which I paid cash when new). It has depreciated in value.

What government agency do I go to in order to recoup my loss due to depreciation in value??????????????

"our life as we know it is gone up in smoke. the smoke and mirrors of the democratic [REPUBLICAN circa 2000] pork package. they surely have butcherd our economic system."

They're all the same rooster.

Well our so-called patriotic politicians had President Obama sign into law the Stimulus package, without any protection for American Workers? About time the US Chamber of Commerce dropped their disguise and honestly stated they are Foreign Government Chamber of Commerce. One again the average American Worker loses out, because certain corruptible politicians have killed E-Verify, so millions of illegal aliens can steal our jobs. ENACT E-verify as it will have a positive impact on all America.

They also conspired to drop 'BUY AMERICAN'. $Billions of dollars will be once again exported and not be going in American Workers pockets.
We still have time to back Senator Sessions and other honest lawmakers before the deadline this March? We need E-Verify with its mandated success rate of 99.6 percent in perpetuity, not just 5 years? Jam the Washington Switchboard at (202) 224-3121 In addition you can call President Obama at 202-456-1111. Switchboard: 202-456-1414

OH! YES! AND BUY AMERICAN!

our life as we know it is gone up in smoke. the smoke and mirrors of the democratic pork package. they surely have butcherd our economic system.