if we didn't have some of the discrimination laws that are in effect now the banks wouldn't have half the bad loans they do. way to many non us citizens here posing as or here as students.

Yeppers, Ryan voted for the TARP bill, along with Baldwin, and Kohl. Feingold and Sensibrener Jr were the two from this state who actually had some sense.
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As I wrote a few posts down, these bailouts do nothing. The banks just hoard the $$$$. They essentially just deposit right back into the Federal reserve. So now they just have a massive cash reserve to shore up their balance sheet. The idea was to ease liquidity, and get credit flowing again. It was yet another great economic theory that sounds great in a text book, or when you hear some pinhead professor teach it. However; in the real world, "rational expectations" trump all that nonsense. The banks are never going to lend out the money, and risk being burned yet again with bad loans. To many of these economists live in the theoretical world, and it never takes into consideration human behavior. Basically these measures are just theoretical nonsense, that look at us citizens (and businesses) as programmed drones. This is the reason why TARP is all ready being shown to be a massive failure, and so will this stimulus bill once it is passed.

Didn't this Ryan guy vote for the "bailout", which was some 800 billion of taxpayer dollars to be given to rich, greedy bankers and businesses no questions asked? Those who received the handout promptly went and spent it on lavish vacation getaways and other in your face wastes of money.

But now this waste of taxpayer money is somehow different. Another politician playing partisan politics with taxpayer funds. These people need to go away.

Markr --- Intellectual dishonesty is a term many would use to describe your remarks. A slight rebound of less than 0.07% in the market is your definition of the markets embracing Obama? If they did embrace the plans it would have been yesterday when the plan [house/senate/fed] were announced. My remarks are in response to the plan not the President. I do hope he succeeds as President; I just don’t want all his ideas to be passed, these will not lead to success for America.

Good link athelia:
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This goes back to what I joke with friends about in all those "NINJA" loans that the government forced the banks to give out in the name of "affordable housing".
NINJA = No Income, No Job/Assets! You laugh, but that was literally what was going on in many cases!

The market was up 50 points on the dow and 6 and a half on the S&P. Big friggin deal. You may want to look up the term :SHORTERS RALLY! I for one bought (to cover my short positions) today, to cash in big profit from the 400 point sell off on Tuesday. This is still a huge bear market, and most rallies are just the shorters cashing in, selling their shares to the suckers who actually think this nonsense by the feds will work!

RetiredAirForce--Today (the day after your your typical knee-jerk conservative responses) the market is up. I don't see you on here today, with your eye on the market commentary. If your theory is correct, then America and its markets are indeed embracing President Obama. And again, lest you forget, it was under the leadership (?!?) of cocaine georgie that we got round one of the stimulus package. So your attempts to vilify President Obama for it are silly and dishonest.

"Well Mr. Ryan, quit holding out on everyone...come up with a solution instead of whining."
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I guess if you would have read the article you would have seen in para 5 and 6 your answers...but whining is better I suppose.

On a side note, I find it ironic that all the conservative posters are attacking Keynesian Theory, liberals are defending it, and it was Reagan who initially championed it.

Well Mr. Ryan, quit holding out on everyone. Tell us the solution to all our problems that will fix everything tomorrow. I bet if you do that you could be the next president. Until then, come up with a solution instead of whining. And if you really are worried about wasteful government spending, put your neck out on the line and make your number one priority to allow line item vetoing.

The only people who embrace Keynesian theory are politicians and their advisers. Any excuse to spend spend spend and increase their fiefdoms, and of course most importantly get reelected. Also, contrary to quintin66's comment, much of the educational portion is being cut..."Sen. Ben Nelson, a Nebraska Democrat involved in the compromise negotiations with Republicans Susan Collins of Maine and Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, posted a breakdown on his Web site showing that the compromise cuts all $16 billion from the original bill for K-12 school construction, trims more than $1 billion from Head Start programs for youngsters and cuts $40 billion from a $79 billion proposal to help states pay education costs while trying to balance their own budgets. Some $3.5 billion would be cut for work on higher education facilities as well."

kiowamohican, that brought tears to my eyes. How true.

There are very few economists who really buy into Keynesian theory anymore. Instead, the idea of "rational expectations" has taken its place. The difference between the two approaches is essential to understanding why Obama's stimulus package won't work.
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Keynes felt that people would react automatically to a few dollars in their hands. Consumers would run out and buy new products, and businessmen, seeing the uptick in sales, would rush to open new plants and hire new workers who would, in turn, generate more demand.
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But that's not the real world. In reality, consumers, knowing there are hard times ahead, save any money they get either by salting it away or by paying down their debts and bills. That's why the personal saving rate in the last quarter of 2008 was the highest in six years and spending on residential construction was down 22 percent over the past year. And the savings rate rose from 2.8 percent in November 2008 to 3.6 percent in December as the storm clouds grew grayer. And, in the real world, banks hang onto their money for fear of making bad loans, no matter how many bailouts or stimulus packages Washington passes.
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That's the real world folks, and why the real economists know this will bomb miserably. Just wait a few years and you will see. Just don't say that no one warned you about it!

The markets are LEADING indicators. Usually it is a forecast of things 6-9 months out. Hence why after the market crashed in October, it's right about now when you are seeing the big hits to "main street" in stagnant growth across every sector of the economy, unemployment, ext. The markets are not always correct in the forecast, I will give you that, but they are a pretty darn good indicator. When the market crashed in in 29, I'd say it was a pretty good leading indicator of things ahead!
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The current market will not see any recovery for a long time; as the people with REAL $$$ (not ones just believing in hope, change, free gas, free mortgage, free tuition, ext ext) have ZERO confidence in what is being done. While all major fundamental and technical indicators point to things getting FAR FAR worse, especially now that this "recovery" package has been ram rodded through congress. Amazing how congress botches everything they rush through. Just look at TARP, and the Iraq invasion, as recent examples!

"You're using the stock market as an economic indicator? Good luck with that."
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Lets see...last year the market dropped with the economy. This January was the worst on record for the market. Yep looks like a good reflection on the economy...but you can keep living in your bubble.

futurerichguy: in all your "ton of economy classes" you never came across John Maynard Keynes? because he said exactly what you say won't work. In fact, he criticized FDR for not spending enough, thus slowing down the economic recovery LEADING UP TO WW2. Of course at the onset of WW2 the Keynesian theory did not matter because then we had a shortage of labor, and Keynesian theory should only be applied at times of high unemployment.
Whether you prescribe to Keynesian theory or not you should have heard of it, having had all those economy classes. don't worry part of the stimulus bill includes help for schools so future students can get a proper education on 20th century history and economics.

I personally am loving all this government intervention. Every time they pass something the market sells off big time. Dow dropped about 400 today on Senate passage of the "rescue bill" (the title of that bill is humorous in of itself). The market shorters (which I primarily am) just cash in every day you have one of these huge sell offs.
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This thing will of course be a complete disaster. There is absolutely zero doubt about that. Even the CBO (Congressional Budget Office) which is NON partisan, has said the plan will do more damage in the long run. Here's the link to that:
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http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009...
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The CBO is actually what all you Clintoneastas use to site to support Bill's economic policies. I guess now they are no longer credible!
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Oh well; people still believe in the great hope and change. You can have lots of hope, and in the end you'll be left with literally change in your pocket!

Zoom, your comment is a classic regurgitated response that I've been hearing over the past 8 years. Regurgitated by pulpits who are looking out for themselves. Where is the historical precedence? Don't say that the Great Depression was caused by budget constraints because it wasn't. That was a result of protectionist policies, not to mention the crash of 1929, the real estate debacle in FL, global political factors beyond our comprehension, etc... People often point to FDR’s New Deal as reversing the depression, but in actuality the depression didn’t reverse until after WWII. I've taken a ton of economics in my lifetime and not once did a text book state that the government has to spend to stop a spiraling recession. There just is no data, no historical evidence, nothing to prove that we need to spend, other than what we hear our politicians tell us. Please reference an economic principal that states running up the deficit will reverse a recession and improve our long-term economic health. I'm just so disappointed in Obama right now.

"They need to STOP SPENDING and reduce the size of government, entitlements and other junk."

A reduction of spending is the LAST thing the government should do in a downward spiraling recession. Once the recovery is on track, the budget can be fixed.

why in gods name would i listen to 1 whack job in ohio.

"As your representative, I have a responsibility to propose alternative solutions."

Agreed, Congressman! Now, exactly where was that sense of fiscal responsibility during the borrow and spend policies of Republican government in 2001 through 2006? (Not a rhetorical question. Many of us would appreciate a reasonable explanation.)

Paul Ryan has zero credibility in my book given his track record. I mean look at Janesville when he began his term and look at Janesville today. Obama is also seriously disappointing me. Come on, more Bush style tax rebates? And since when did it become economic suicide to balance the budget?

socialism-communism? can you say paranoia, get a grip

"The bill passed and the market is responding...."

You're using the stock market as an economic indicator? Good luck with that.

"The median joblessness rate during the New Deal was 17.2%..."

Median means middle. Nice try at cherry picking the data. The unemployment rate BEFORE the New Deal was more than 25%, and never again rose above the 1933 level. You don't know what you're talking about.

market down 4.25% and still falling...hang on!

The bill passed and the market is responding....

The opponents of the stimulus should be the ones put out of work instead of the 600,000 or more Americans who will not have jobs because of the cuts to this bill.
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If you don't understand that we are in a unique situation and facing financial catastrophe, you're not paying attention. All consumer spending has fallen off a cliff. Jobs will go next. There is no more room to reduce interest rates. Monetary policy (Friedman/Greenspan) will not save us from this recession, only stimulating the economy through deficit spending (Keynes) will.
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This bill probably isn't enough and we are looking at potentially a decade of stagnation similar to Japan in the 1990s. I hope all you naysayers are ready to ride that one out.

Some of the Jefferson quotes listed are listed in the Jeffersonian Cyclopedia, others are not:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/j...

Senate just now passed the bill.

That last quote is erroneous, I am not sure of the others. Don't believe everything that is emailed to you.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/b...

pudssweetie: This all sounds eerily prophetic! It's exactly everything we are doing now!! We should take a lesson!!!

Obama was right on the money last night with his Presidential Speech that he gave. We are in a downward spiral that needs to be broken, much in the same way that FDR did with the New Deal.

Janesville has had increasing lay offs and plant closings. We are going to be like that little city in Indiana if something isn't done now and FAST!

I find it IRONIC that when banks and corporations wanted a bailout, it was given to them WITHOUT the condition that they only use American made parts. AND they took $400,000 spa vacations. Nice. Now, Obama is proposing a bill that will stimulate the economy and put 4 million jobs in the American Worker's hands. How is that a BAD thing? Jobs produce money, increases spending, decreases debt. HELLO??? You do not need to be an economic major to understand that.

Wasn't Obama the one accusing others of using "fear" tactics, and now that is all i hear out of him. And now that is all i hear out of him when it comes to getting this bill pushed through the senate and house.
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Obama is setting this nation up with a debt that could never be repaid. As well, these politicians are throwing around money like it is nothing. Have they no comprehension of what it takes for "most" Americans to earn a dollar?

A really good friend of mine sent me this e-mail and think it is right on. Sorry that this is a little long but very interesting.
John Kennedy once said to a assembled group of scholars in the White House " I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered at the White House - with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."


The quotes below could prove his point.



When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe
Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson



I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson


My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson


No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Thomas Jefferson


The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
Thomas Jefferson

Very Interesting Quote:

In light of the present financial crisis, it's interesting to read what Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

Banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.
.. sound eerily familiar?

We need to stop trying to place the blame of our economic mess on others. All this finger pointing across the aisle is getting old. At this point does it really matter if it's the democrats or the republicans fault? Our country is in a crisis! People are losing their jobs, homes and retirement savings. We need to close the gap in the aisle and become one team. Lets work together to get ourselves out of this mess.

"I think we should just leave it alone and let the chips fall where they may."

That kind of inaction prolonged the great depression.

"their one note tax cut song is out of tune. It's been tried, and failed."
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The problem is it was not tried alone...spending was increased at the same time and beyond. Spending money has always been the problem not taxes.

Well said altheia!! your right on!

I think we should just leave it alone and let the chips fall where they may. This so called "stimulus" is just the dems way of spending money they didn't get to before. If you'd like to sign a petition toward this end got to www.nostimulus.com and let them know we don't want them spending our money for this. we will never be able to pay it back and won't see any good come from it unless you think being owned by China or some other country is an advantage!

well said ekim8404

President Obama made a good point. It's ironic that the Republicans are worried about spending money and increasing the deficit now, during the worst economic crisis since the great depression, when the national debt doubled under their watch.

"Nineteen programs deemed “ineffective” or “results not demonstrated” by the Office of Management and Budget would get $54 billion."

So, Mr. Ryan, you are going to vote against the bill because you disagree with about 7% of the spending? Come election time, I guess I'll have to vote against your, because I disagree with 7% of your decisions.

While I admire the Republicans drive for fiscal conservation, their one note tax cut song is out of tune. It's been tried, and failed. Time for something new.

I'm trying to understand what exactly your plans are Mr. Ryan. If there is no legislative way out of this, what are you doing in Washington? Why are you a politician? To serve? Is it a career? If you are a true republican you believe in "less government", and that the "private sector" will save us. Is that what just happened? Unchecked greed (greed is good right?) and the worship of the almighty dollar in conjunction with lax regulatory powers (gasp...that's government) is why we are here today. I think everyone is FOR lower taxes, but what does that mean? Everyone sure likes driving on our public streets and attending our public schools. We like our parks and are grateful for the military and those that serve. Why are we taxed at all? Because, we want the services. Where does all that money come from? Is there pork? You bet. Always will be. Is the stimulus plan perfect? No. Do we have unfair trade practices that put our products at a disadvantage? You bet, but then we just had 8 years of Republican policies, and what has it helped? Iraq is doing pretty well, the USA? Not so much.

Congressmen Ryan where were all your wonderful ideas a year ago before we started down this slide that we are currently in?

wisconsingirl i dont deny that prez obama has favors to repay. hes a politician. if mr ryan were to get as far as the white house im sure he too would have favors to repay and the ideas in this article would get 'tweaked' and not seem quite as rosy.

All I hear is the republicans telling everybody whats wrong with this stimulus package. So we are just supposed to stay in the recession? This problem was around well before Obama took office. Don't blame him for trying to do something about it. Whats wrong with funding for transportation. That will create jobs. Bridges need to be built/repaired etc. Enough arguing and finger pointing in Washington by both sides just do something to correct the situation.

I appreciate the rhetoric as well, were you as outspoken in regards to the 700 billion dollars allocated to the financial sector that disappeared?

Congressman Ryan is definitely focussed on the right things in emphasizing the need to encourage small businesses and entrepeneurs. What hasn't been discussed anywhere that I can tell, however, is a little known fact -- the Wisconsin Department of Workforce Development kills off small businesses. It's actually a well known fact to the many small business owners who have just thrown up their hands and quit. I'm not talking about so called small businesses with 100+ employees. I mean a person who needs to hire one to five people to try to grow from a successful one-person operation. You just can't do it without paying people under the table. Trying to comply with all the DWD reporting and filing requirements is just too burdensome and expensive for tiny businesses.

Mr. Ryan - I wish you were in the White House. Your plan is just what we need, but unfortuately Obama has favors to repay and the Democrats have our money to spend with no regard to the pork hidden in this so-called stimulus package and the crushing debt we are leaving to our children and grandchildren. I still can't believe the American people are accepting this bullying from Obama, Pelosi and Reid. It's going to be a very long and challenging four years.