Yes, foolonthehill, you are correct.

And re: those awards: remember, even if we don't win, it's an honor to be nominated.

So it seems I have correctly inferred the true meaning of Jesusmas, GFan. I must be learning a thing or two by hanging out here. I see you too have been nominated for an award. Congratulations!

Well, billnewbie, you didn't have anything to say about the above story since I've been gone -no improvement on the miserable church experience?

billnewbie, please refrain from sacrilege by not mentioning John Lennon's name. Even a McCartnyite like foolonthehill could get angry. And I said that bibledude banned HIMSELF -search this blog or the "Spiritual" one for my original post.

And you've made it very apparent that your selfish wish to live beyond your allotted lifetime is a manifestation of a gargantuan ego. Sadly, this conceit reveals that your inner life is one of great emptiness -absent of the richness of the true human experience.

One more thing, billnewbie, the word "Christmas" accurately reflects how the contrivance of the Christ is something apart from Jesus. If this weren't the case, why wouldn't Jesus' name -instead of his job title - be used as the designation for his "birthday"?

JustAsk....., how typically christian of you to want to silence someone for merely disagreeing. Shame on you!!!

DiGriz, we're all hoping your return is trouble-free and safe.

prounion, thanks for blessing my cattle. I've noticed a marked improvement in the herd that gathers on the lower forty.

foolonthehill, billnewbie doesn't poke; he only feels like he's poked when people make reasonable comments and ask reasonable questions.

You've been nominated for an award on this site:

http://gazettextra.com/weblogs/gen-x-j-v...

I hope everyone had a Merry Jesusmas.

JustAskMe: Actually, I am quite a bit more abrasive and caustic in person; sort of like Hugh Laurie's character on "House, MD". I involuntarily laugh at stupid statements and frequently use words like "idiot" and "moron". Hmmm... now that you mention it, maybe I really am a 14 year old girl? ;~)

DiGriz: Whenever I feel inclined to mis-characterize opposing views, that means a thorough reevaluation of my own is in order. Nothing reveals truth quite like the desire to tell a lie.

ncpanfan: The feelings are mutual. Merry Christmas!

Your right on both accounts matthew666.

JustAskme --- you should think about the fact that you don't know anything about the Bible. And please don't say you're near me here in Port Charlotte.

My local newspaper blog down here in Florida shows the users' real name with each comment. All comments are respectable - much different then the ones in this newspaper.

The point being, anyone can be anything in an anonymous blog. Matthew666 could be a retired school teacher, a male prostitute, etc... - there are over 48 billion possibilities.

creepy mathew666 - you seem to see things in a perverted way - there is treatment (therapy) avaiable for that.

JustAskme--- are you at a age when you shouldnt be thinking about 14 year old girls? You probably are. What a creep.

And don't forget - this is an anonymous commenting mechanism. So fool-on-the-hill and gazettefan could BOTH be the same 14 year old girl with 2 usernames. We have no way of knowing and we can't take his/her word for it.

Fool: I always enjoy how even though we may not agree in our beliefs, you are always polite and thoughtful! :) I agree with you when you say how can anyone find someone wishing you well wishes offensive? It shouldn't matter as long as the thoughts behind it are well meant and whether it is Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays or the other examples I cited earlier I think when people say it they aren't trying to be mean or force anything down anyone's throat. I think they are being nice and sharing well wishes! :)

I think I recognize a poking stick when I see one, Billnewbie. I wasn't criticizing you for being opinionated. It was only an observation. Each of us here is opinionated. That goes without saying.

I wonder who first crafted and spoke the word "Christmas"? I'll bet that drew gasps of sacrilege from a few folks. I think I know what Gazettefan intended with "Merry Jesusmas" but he can speak for himself on that. Personally, I rather liked it. I don't know why anyone would find "Merry Christmas" to be offensive. That strikes me as political correctness. Just about anything, either real or imagined, that inspires "good will toward men" is a good thing. All is calm, all is bright. What's not to like?

billnewbe - you hit the nail on the head there - gazettefans' intentional disrespect towards others was demonstrated with his 'Jesusmas' reference. It is a bit of info you should remember when reading any of his future comments. With any luck, maybe the Gazette will ban his future comments all together.

It's interesting that you say that I'm in hyper-instigator mode, Fool_on_the_Hill. Sure, I express my opinions strongly, even forcefully, but that's hardly instigation beyond the usual irritated responses one can expect from those who detest my opinions which as I said before are a natural consequence of stating those opinions. I can instigate an angry response with even the most benign of comments from some of the usual suspects who almost seem to curse the ground I walk on. There’s nothing new in that. History is littered with the copses of dead messengers who irritated the powerful with nothing more that the truth. My offerings don’t rise to that grandiose a scale, obviously. But the effect is similar.

Who, I wonder has been manning the wet blankets for throwing on the Christmas spirit? I saw one poster who detests the words “Merry Christmas” as rude and disrespectful. Yet another wants to rename it “Jesusmas”, as an intentional disrespect towards those of us who might be sensitive to such silly insults. And of course there were the usual disparagements about the intelligence of Christians. I suppose that if one rises to such challenges one can expect to be called a wet blanket thrower or an instigator. But I respectfully and strenuously disagree.

Philosophy evolves DiGriz. That's an evolution that can be proven. Your deism bears little resemblance to Franklin's. The God you think may exist is just a cosmic force, kind of a celestial battery that emits creativity involuntarily since it has no personality. Franklin accepted a personal God with a creative plan as is plain from his writings and his voluntary work with Christians helping them establish new churches throughout the area. Taking Franklin's personal history into account, my quotes are much more in context than the ones you cited.

And please, let's not pretend that you've lost any respect for me. You would have had to have some to lose it. You've made clear your contempt for any who hold religious beliefs whether they are Muslim or Christian. By the way, did you answer the question I asked of you on the 13th at 8:08 pm? Is so, I missed it.

DiGriz, that comment to Billnewbie was to rib about him about being in hyper-instigator mode lately, despite his repeated denials of such. I wouldn't bite and Gazettefan said "later, dude". Now it's deists. Is he trying to throw a wet blanket on the Christmas spirit? ;~)

By the way Fool_on_the_Hill, Gazettefan's not gone, he's just gone from this board. He excoriated me for my opinions just 3 hours ago in an effort to shore up Prounion's critique of my opinion of scripture on a different discussion, one less read that doesn't appear on the popular discussions list. Those 2 are like peas and carrots, eh?

OK, 'f you say so. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Say no more...

Well, I could claim that his absence is acquiescence and do a little victory dance if I wanted to copy his tactics, Fool-on-the-Hill. But in truth, I don't really post comments to provoke his reply. Besides, how many different ways can he say "you are truly ignorant" until I've seen them all? I believe I've seen his entire repertoire of denigrations many times over. So what have I to gain (or fear) by "poking sharp sticks" in his direction?

The first one is from ncpan so is this one

continued:

1. Instead of writing protest letters objecting to the way My birthday is being celebrated, write letters of love and hope to soldiers away from home. They are terribly afraid and lonely this time of year. I know, they tell Me all the time.

2. Visit someone in a nursing home. You don't have to know them personally. They just need to know that someone cares about them.
3. Instead of writing the President complaining about the wording on the cards his staff sent out this year, why don't you write and tell him that you'll be praying for him and his family this year. Then follow up... It will be nice hearing from you again.

4. Instead of giving your children a lot of gifts you can't afford and they don't need, spend time with them. Tell them the story of My birth, and why I came to live with you down here. Hold them in your arms and remind them that I love them.

5 Pick someone that has hurt you in the past and forgive him or her.
6. Did you know that someone in your town will attempt to take their own life this season because they feel so alone and hopeless? Since you don't know who that person is, try giving everyone you meet a warm smile; it could make the difference.

7. Instead of nit picking about what the retailer in your town calls the holiday, be patient with the people who work there. Give them a warm smile and a kind word. Even if they aren't allowed to wish you a "Merry Christmas" that doesn't keep you from wishing them one. Then stop shopping there on Sunday. If the store didn't make so much money on that day they'd close and let their employees spend the day at home with their families
8. If you really want to make a difference, support a missionary-- especially one who takes My love and Good News to those who have never heard My name.

9. Here's a good one. There are individuals and whole families in your town who not only will have no "Christmas" tree, but neither will they have any presents to give or receive. If you don't know them, buy some food and a few gifts and give them to the Salvation Army or some other charity which believes in Me and they will make the delivery for you.

10. Finally, if you want to make a statement about your belief in and loyalty to Me, then behave like a Christian. Don't do things in secret that you wouldn't do in My presence. Let people know by your actions that you are one of mine.

Don't forget; I am God and can take care of Myself. Just love Me and do what I have told you to do. I'll take care of all the rest. Check out the list above and get to work; time is short. I'll help you, but the ball is now in your court. And do have a most blessed Christmas with all those whom you love and remember :

I LOVE YOU,

JESUS

Got this in an e-mail and thought I would share!

Letter from Jesus about Christmas --

It has come to my attention that many of you are upset that folks are taking My name out of the season.

How I personally feel about this celebration can probably be most easily understood by those of you who have been blessed with children of your own.. I don't care what you call the day. If you want to celebrate My birth, just GET ALONG AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Now, having said that let Me go on. If it bothers you that the town in which you live doesn't allow a scene depicting My birth, then just get rid of a couple of Santas and snowmen and put in a small Nativity scene on your own front lawn If all My followers did that there wouldn't be any need for such a scene on the town square because there would be many of them all around town.
Stop worrying about the fact that people are calling the tree a holiday tree, instead of a Christmas tree. It was I who made all trees. You can remember Me anytime you see any tree. Decorate a grape vine if you wish: I actually spoke of that one in a teaching, explaining who I am in relation to you and what each of our tasks were. If you have forgotten that one, look up John 15: 1 - 8.

If you want to give Me a present in remembrance of My birth here is my wish list. Choose something from it:

You can deny wielding the poking stick all you want, Bill. I, for one, don't buy it. I just hope Gazettefan's sabbatical includes not reading as well as not posting. Otherwise, he is probably leaking like a sieve right about now. ;~)

As long as we are going to quote that notable deist, Ben Franklin, let's quote!
A little more from his autobiography, "Sunday being my studying day, I never was without some religious principles. I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that He made the world, and governed it by His providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter."

Here’s more of the Franklin quote that Matthew516 rendered from Franklin’s plea for daily prayer to be offered during the Constitutional Convention (you know, the same U.S. Constitution that wasn’t based on Christian principles), “We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: ...I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.”

Franklin wasn’t anything like a modern day deist, the type that acknowledges the possibility of a God but one who can’t be bothered with the daily struggles of His creations. And Franklin embraced organized religion for its ability to instill moral values in its adherents for their benefit as well as the benefit of society, as opposed to many modern day deists and atheists who claim that organized religion promotes immorality. Consider the following quote from Franklin’s letter to Thomas Paine, a critique of Paine’s “Age of Reason”, “For without the Belief of a Providence that takes Cognizance of, guards and guides and may favour particular Persons, there is no Motive to Worship a Deity, to fear its Displeasure, or to pray for its Protection....think how great a Proportion of Mankind consists of weak and ignorant Men and Women, and of inexperienc'd and inconsiderate Youth of both Sexes, who have need of the Motives of Religion to restrain them from Vice, to support their Virtue, and retain them in the Practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great Point for its Security; And perhaps you are indebted to her originally that is to your Religious Education, for the Habits of Virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it.”

The issue Franklin seemed to take with Christ is the same that most who reject Him have, that he would rather live a virtual life doing good for his fellow man and through that, find redemption. Beyond that, Franklin supported many Christian causes both with donated work and with treasure. He wasn’t a modern day deist at all, that scripture quoting ex-puritan!

I quite disagree that there is evidence that any habitable planet exists outside the solar system, Prounion. The only evidence of any other planets at all is their apparent effect on the stars they orbit which tells us nothing of their environment. And when you take into consideration the uncertainty of the make up of those stars they orbit, that they may either emit too much lethal radiation or too little of their radiation is of the type necessary to sustain life, then the variables become too unpredictable. So much so that one cannot just send out a ship full of colonists to their probable doom. Volunteers would be very hard to come by since they would be searching for a cosmic needle in a hay stack that in rough proportion would be like looking for a very small needle within a hay stack so large that it would cover the whole state. Realistically, we would have to send scout ships to ascertain the suitability of such an enterprise. But then there's the time factor. Even at the speed of light it would take hundreds, perhaps thousands of years for a scout ship to make the voyage and for a message to be received from it, if the theory is correct that the speed of light is the universal speed limit. And where will we get a ship that can go even that fast? It seems that you are filling in the huge gaps that you have in evidence and reason with some blind faith of your own.

It’s a pity that you’ve accepted your hopelessness and apparent worthlessness. You and your “relationships” are important. Important to God, even if not to His creation, the universe. That’s why He sent His Son on the first Christmas day. Because you are important to Him. It’s quite rational you know. He gave us free will knowing we could choose against Him which we did. So He offers us a second choice. A free gift, the gift of salvation. It’s yours for the asking, but he won’t force it on you since He gave you a free will.

Is the supporting evidence for Islam the same as that for Christianity? Both Christianity and Islam are rooted in Judaism. So all three are based in part or whole on the Old Testament, a collection of testimony (thus the title “Testament”) from many witnesses over a period of thousands of years. The New Testament is Christian and focuses on Christ’s life and the establishment of His Church covering only the first century A.D.. It too is a collection of testimony from many witnesses. Islam, however, is based on the Koran, the testimony of one man and one man only. That’s a significant difference to me. Another significant difference to me is that the witnesses of the New Testament relied exclusively on persuasion, never coercion. Yet Mohammed himself led many jihads to force the conversion of the conquered to his “make yourself acceptable to God through ritual” religion in stark contrast to Christianity. It therefore is unreasonably simplistic to equate Islam and Christianity.

Matthew516, God has left the building. --Time magazine 1966

As for the last part of your post Bill - I thought it was a nice bit of arguement. I think though, respectfully that there is a difference between interpreting the world through evidence and reason and interpreting it though blind faith.
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In the planetary doom scenario for instance - there is evidence that one could reasonably predict that the human race could survive on another planet. If you think of the various factors involved - there is evidence that would lead to that conclusion.
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You mentioning that my family and myself will not be around to enjoy it is exactly my point. I am not reaching conclusions based on what I would like to happen, I based my conclusions off of what is reasonable based on the evidence.
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I don't start with the conclusion that my sets of thoughts and feelings and relationships are so very important that the universe could not be without them, so as a result there must be a mechanism whereby I will be preserved.
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The Islamic Faith and the Christian faith are both based on the exact same amount of evidence - the both consisting of an afterlife/punishment system and books from god that can be interpreted to reach any conclusion one would like to instill in the follower.
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When you say I am like the Imam in my outrage at your religion, please also realize I hold just as much distain for the irrationality of Islam as I do for Chistianity, both groups are equally irrational in their conclusions and resultant actions.

Great quotes, DiGriz. Especially that last one, my friend!

And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? or do we imagine we no longer need its assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this Truth, that God governs in the Affairs of Men. And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid? ~ Ben Franklin

Faith is what I'd call what you have there, Prounion. But a hollow faith that lacks any hope for you and the ones you love since it won't make any difference to you or them if that ever can be done. However, there is a great benefit for me and my loved ones should my faith in God be true as I am convinced that it is. Hope verses hopelessness, that's the difference.

How about the rest of my previous post? Any thoughts?

Bill - loved the post! Well done - looking forward to the running on empty blog reply though.
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I would like to explore this with you. All I have is a theory - that in a couple billion years before our sun dies (other than nova thanks for the info BTW) we could make it to one of the planets we already have evidence of that are likely to be able to support life.
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Is that faith? At first I must say Bill I immediatly said no way - not with all the supporting evidence ie - the evidence of so many other planetary bodies - our current progress rate regarding space travel - the amount of time before our sun dies. I really don't know if we can do it - but it seems feasable - is that faith?
.
Is it the same as the faith you have in god? How might it be different?

Well, Prounion, for us (as a species) to not be here when our sun turns lethal to us, we would need to have some habitable place to go outside of the solar system, if one exists and if it is within our reach when we need it. You're real big on proof. You already know you can't prove such a transfer to another world is possible. All you have is faith in what may be possible. But don't you call faith an act of ignorance which you ridicule at every opportunity? Or perhaps you prefer to call your faith by some other name. "A rose by any other name smells just as sweet." says William Shakespeare. Maybe you think your rose smells like lilacs.

You know, the boys in Iran are quite unshakable in their views on faith. They are just as certain as you are that I'm wrong too, Prounion. And they seem just as committed to spreading what they believe as you are too. But you know, of the 3 of us , you me and the Iranians, one of us is closest to the truth. Deciding which is an act of faith. And of the three of us, 2 seem bent on stamping out the rest. If you were to scroll down to the bottom of the comments list and read my first post as well as my archive, you would find that I advocate free will choices about these subjects. And of course, the Imams of Iran don't take any such position, in fact they take the opposite one. And that leaves you, Prounion, and a few others who comment here often and can remain nameless for now. You seem to have much in common with the Imams as you have shown much animosity towards all beliefs that you don't hold too. Now wouldn't it be silly for me to equate you to Iran's Imams? And how silly it was of you, too.

Thank you SarahB1. It's gratifying to find that my first comment below was read and that you found it agreeable.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.

I attended the 'I Need A Silent Night' evening at Rock Prairie and it was wonderful!!! Very peaceful and quiet--perfect for reflection.

fool on the hill..i am looking forward to your next plagiarized comment:)

Oh wait?? The help in the store? :)

??? I wasn't on last night.... ??? But you are welcome.... LOL

THanks for the help last night ncpanfan.

question? If someone says have a great day, is that being rude and disrespectful too? I mean they may have a belief that strangers shouldn't speak to them or something... So maybe we should all stop greeting, smiling at, acknowledging, speaking to anyone just to be safe...... NAH I thought it over and I find that to be no fun so guess I will continue to do it and please know that I do so enjoy the smiles and greetings that I get back!

Oh and remember that strangers are only friends you haven't met yet!

I was in the store to get my groceries last night and I was stopped by a gentleman in the seasonal aisle and he asked me if I could help him find the same candy he bought the day before. I tried but there was none there. He said thank you for your help and Happy Holidays! Was I offended? NOPE. Did I think he was being rude because he didn't know what holiday I might or might not celebrate? NOPE I found it refreshing that people who don't know each other can still help one another and pass on well wishes, whether it be a season known for it or any day of the year! It is amazing how far a smile and kindness to others can go!

"I am looking forward to the feats of strength....."

Yes, I'd say these comment boards have the "airing of grievances" ritual handled.

Lots of interesting comments here. In fact, too many for me to read this morning. I did want to let billnewbie know that I think his first posting here is beautiful and says it all as far as my beliefs. Merry Christmas to all. And, thanks, billnewbie.

The sun will not go nova - it's a medium, class g star - it will red giant and collapse into a white dwarf - in about 4 billion years.

Well its the pagans - they had a celebration on.......December 25th. Coincidence of course.
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Bill - we (as a species) don't need to be here when the sun goes nova. Unfortunatly we have much greater immediate threats to our existance than the sun going nova. For example Iran's leader recently dropped a note down a well to inform the mystical and immortal 12th Imam that he had a successfull missle test. He holds the same unshakable views on faith that you do and the same amount of supporting evidence for that faith.

prounion: :) That is definitely one I missed! LOL Sorry never heard of it but have a happy one!

Happy Malkh Festival to one and all! May Gal-Yerdi bless your cattle this year.

Merry Christmas! Happy Holidays! Season's Greetings! Happy Hanukkah! Happy Kwanzaa!! Happy whatever holiday you may celebrate that I might have missed! :)

Sorry guess that was rude of me? :~ )

Perhaps some day that will change for you Fool_on_the_Hill.

Sorry, Bill. Even if I wanted what you are offering, I cannot believe in what I could not possibly believe. Doing so would require me to abrogate every I know to be true and that isn't ever going to happen. (Those who know me are now laughing at that understatement.) The reality of life has more than enough to offer.

Yes, Fool_on_the_Hill, but when we are gone too what's left? When the sun finally explodes and turns us all to ashes, who will know or care? What then will be the result of all humanity? According to the theories of atheists, nothing can survive beyond our deaths. By according to the bible, we all will survive in spirit. That's part of our hope. The atheist must ultimately face hopelessness as nothing of us can survive if they are right. Don't you want to be sure that there is no hope? Don't you owe yourself an honest assessment of what the bible says? I know you've said that you rejected it when you were quite young. And you've said that you don't know much about the bible too. Are you sure that you don't want to investigate that alternative for yourself?

I won't speak for any other atheist here but since you poked, Bill...

Along with all of the tangible contributions left behind by the departed, their spirit and thoughts live on in the hearts and minds of everyone they touched. I continue to be influenced and inspired by many others long after their deaths. Quite often, their influence will even increase after death. (This sentiment is probably more appropriate to Easter than Christmas, huh?)

continued:

1. Instead of writing protest letters objecting to the way My birthday is being celebrated, write letters of love and hope to soldiers away from home. They are terribly afraid and lonely this time of year. I know, they tell Me all the time.

2. Visit someone in a nursing home. You don't have to know them personally. They just need to know that someone cares about them.
3. Instead of writing the President complaining about the wording on the cards his staff sent out this year, why don't you write and tell him that you'll be praying for him and his family this year. Then follow up... It will be nice hearing from you again.

4. Instead of giving your children a lot of gifts you can't afford and they don't need, spend time with them. Tell them the story of My birth, and why I came to live with you down here. Hold them in your arms and remind them that I love them.

5 Pick someone that has hurt you in the past and forgive him or her.
6. Did you know that someone in your town will attempt to take their own life this season because they feel so alone and hopeless? Since you don't know who that person is, try giving everyone you meet a warm smile; it could make the difference.

7. Instead of nit picking about what the retailer in your town calls the holiday, be patient with the people who work there. Give them a warm smile and a kind word. Even if they aren't allowed to wish you a "Merry Christmas" that doesn't keep you from wishing them one. Then stop shopping there on Sunday. If the store didn't make so much money on that day they'd close and let their employees spend the day at home with their families
8. If you really want to make a difference, support a missionary-- especially one who takes My love and Good News to those who have never heard My name.

9. Here's a good one. There are individuals and whole families in your town who not only will have no "Christmas" tree, but neither will they have any presents to give or receive. If you don't know them, buy some food and a few gifts and give them to the Salvation Army or some other charity which believes in Me and they will make the delivery for you.

10. Finally, if you want to make a statement about your belief in and loyalty to Me, then behave like a Christian. Don't do things in secret that you wouldn't do in My presence. Let people know by your actions that you are one of mine.

Don't forget; I am God and can take care of Myself. Just love Me and do what I have told you to do. I'll take care of all the rest. Check out the list above and get to work; time is short. I'll help you, but the ball is now in your court. And do have a most blessed Christmas with all those whom you love and remember :

I LOVE YOU,

JESUS

Got this in an e-mail and thought I would share!

Letter from Jesus about Christmas --

It has come to my attention that many of you are upset that folks are taking My name out of the season.

How I personally feel about this celebration can probably be most easily understood by those of you who have been blessed with children of your own.. I don't care what you call the day. If you want to celebrate My birth, just GET ALONG AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Now, having said that let Me go on. If it bothers you that the town in which you live doesn't allow a scene depicting My birth, then just get rid of a couple of Santas and snowmen and put in a small Nativity scene on your own front lawn If all My followers did that there wouldn't be any need for such a scene on the town square because there would be many of them all around town.
Stop worrying about the fact that people are calling the tree a holiday tree, instead of a Christmas tree. It was I who made all trees. You can remember Me anytime you see any tree. Decorate a grape vine if you wish: I actually spoke of that one in a teaching, explaining who I am in relation to you and what each of our tasks were. If you have forgotten that one, look up John 15: 1 - 8.

If you want to give Me a present in remembrance of My birth here is my wish list. Choose something from it:

I wonder, if John Lennon had the chance from where he is now, would he change that song just a bit? On the other hand, if the atheists are right, Lennon accomplished nothing for himself, his interest in everything died with him including his existence and as such, he accomplished nothing. But Christmas reminds us of the hope we have in Christ that non-existence is not really our fate.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, maybe some day you'll join us, and your souls will sing for joy, too!

No El Diablo, Bill took a fuzzy headed song and tried to redeem so worth from it. It's what we do here. Not EVERYTHING gazettefan says is completely stupid and useless, there are fragments that can be redeemed.

Did billnewbie post words from a Lennon song that is about ending religion will bring some peace?

By the way, I don't really think that a tiger can change it's spots, because it doesn't have any. I meant to write "leopard". Opps!

Well, let's all hope that while he's gone, Gazettefan has an epiphany. It would be refreshing to his soul and ours if that old trickster were to have a new purpose in life that excludes deception. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one....

It looks to me like Gazettefan has tricked himself into revealing what he really tries to accomplish in these discussions. But like most of Gazettefan's prattle, his self-aggrandizing boast about Bibledude being "tricked" into banning himself from this site is an example of his self-blinding wishful thinking and it's usual inaccuracies. When a person is banned from this site his archive is removed as well. Yet bibledude's archive is still active and available here, http://gazettextra.com/users/bibledude/c...

Gee Gazettefan, I thought you kept an archive of all your prattle and the responses you get. Can't you find you own errors or do I have to do all your proofreading for you? Or maybe you regard checking your own yammering for accuracy as a reading assignment, and we all know how adverse you are to those. You know, if you were to exert some self-control in you zeal to try to trick people you might be less inaccurate. But can a tiger change it's spots? Only if it wants to.

gazettefan~ Thanks for the warning. Merry Christmas right back at ya!

And this was put up by a church.

ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8417963.stm

RAmen

I will not post on this story until after December 25th.

MERRY JESUSMAS

LOL

LOL

Great post, Sandman.

billnewbie, what are you yammering about, re: "retraction?" For any chance of that happening, you'll have to provide specifics.

And, no, the important thing isn't that "Christ was born", and I'll assume that you are talking about Jesus, who, by the way, never answered to the appellation "Christ." "Messiah" maybe, but not "Christ." Point being if there were contemporaneous written accounts of his life, he would be referred to as "Messiah", not to be confused with god. "Son of god" and "lord" were used back then in a way that didn't indicate the person was god. His family and followers didn't believe he was god.

Back to the main point, it is important when Jesus was born, re-read Sandman's post. And scroll down and read how I explain that xmas is in December because it is tied to christianity's institutionalized anti-semitism.

As for my age, my adversaries here must be feel especially foolish for continually be bested by someone they believe to be 12.

As for bibledude, not so smart, he allowed me to trick him into banning himself from this site. Not that I want you no-nothings to leave too. You're all part of the project that is going extremely well. maxdetail, fill out that form for the refund on your "college education." And don't forget to attach the printouts of your posts here.

By the way, how many of you christians worshiped your lord and savior by sleeping in Best Buy's parking lot all night?

kkkkkkrrrrrrjjjjjj, how's my time so far today?

On the subject of research, it's hard to take seriously someone who suggests that the biblical stories are pablum when they get the details wrong. For instance, Herod didn't order the census, that was Caesar Augustus. That erroneous detail reminds me of the "bible scholar" who can't remember how many books are in the Old Testament and thought that the Good Samaritan was a Jew. (I hope you didn't take any biblical studies in any of his classes, Sandman) And it's true, the actual date of the Saviour's birth is unknown. But don't worry, no one will be rounding you up on Christmas morning and forcing you to attend a church where you'd be forced to sing hymns you don't mean and listen to stories you don’t want to believe (except maybe your wife/mother). And you won't be forced to read a bible where some of your misconceptions would be dispelled. You can leave that research to us dogmatic pablumitics if you can’t be bothered.

May the Christ of Christmas grant God’s peace and blessings to all this coming Christmas Day!

Merry Christmas! I love you Jesus!

Sadly, Virginia, the root history of the season actually has little to do with an historical Jesus figure. It is a holiday based on pagan (or more properly, earth/season-based) traditions about the "rebirth of the sun" (the lengthening days after the winter solstice). This tradition was common in many cultures and predates the Christ story, but was subsequently adopted and morphed by the church, with an elaborately embellished story about the the "birth of the son," Jesus.

While it makes a great story that has lasted and inspired many through the ages, like many biblical stories and traditions, little of this one is likely factual (including Herod's call for a census and the supposed birth date itself). You are welcome to celebrate what you like (or perhaps not at all, if that is your choice!), but the story of Jesus never was, in fact, the ORIGINAL "reason for the season." Indeed that goes for most all religious holidays, regardless of your chosen religion.

Do the research or just accept the pablum and dogma--it really is your choice (just stop trying to force your version on everyone else as "the one true way"!).

kkrrjj - As you can see, that would be. . . no.

Di-Griz - Nice jingle from Joplin.

Correct, Bill, science does not yet fully understand the entire basis of order and chaos in the universe. No problem. I have complete confidence because science must always be consistent with reality. No faith required. Merry Christmas!

Billnewbie, thank you so much for the time and patience that it takes to respond to these repetitive and incessant attacks. Merry Christmas to you and your family and may God richly bless you sir.

So, back to the original subject, the reason for the season. I'll re-post some of what I wrote 3 days ago before the discussion got sidetracked.

In the 2nd chapter of Luke it says “I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.” There is no need for rituals, no new sacrifices of any kind need be offered, just the acceptance of the free gift of salvation through Christ is all one needs to be right with God. That’s why we Christians celebrate this day. That’s why we give each other presents, because God has given us a present, salvation through Christ. That’s why that on that day they sang out “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.” Peace between God and humanity. That’s the offer of Christmas. Peace and goodwill towards humanity from God.

We know that Christ wasn't really born on Dec. 25th. Our calender wasn't even in use then. The important thing is that Christ was born. That's what we celebrate. And on this chosen day the rest of the world takes notice of our Saviour's birth.

Merry Christmas!

Au contraire, Fool_on_the_Hill. No sharp stick thrusts intended. I just knew that my assertion was bound to draw a response. You know, just like Prounion and Gazettefan wouldn’t be able to resist responding when they saw my first post below. It’s just a natural consequence, though your motivations are different that theirs.

I see order and harmony in nature as well. That’s one of the things that leads me to reject evolution as the source of life. But I also see chaos and randomness in nature as well. It may be true that electrons are all the same, though I doubt that we can ever know that for a fact, and that they act in predictable ways, it is also true that some electrons act peculiarly. And electrons are not the only sub-atomic particles. It seems at least possible that even electrons are made up of other even smaller particles whose properties and actions can only be guessed at. However, assuming that nature is orderly, the fact that it is does not explain why it is. Did nature organize itself? Some parts of nature seem quite unorganized. Is it in the process of organizing or disorganizing. With no God in the equation, all of my questions are hard to answer. But those questions are answerable with God as the progenitor of nature. I don’t presume to have all the answers. Much of the universe is unknowable and will no doubt always be unknowable (though I know you disagree with that).

As for consciousness and conscience I think I do know where they came from. It makes perfect sense to me. We are not just physical beings. Therefore we are not just natural, but supernatural beings. Supernatural, because the human spirit has no physicality. I know, that may very well be something that you just can’t accept. But either way, since science will probably fail to find proof for your theory in your lifetime, then what you choose to believe, since it isn’t proven, is an act of faith. I seems we have that in common.

DiGriz, scroll down to my comment on Dec 13, 2009 at 8:08 p.m. You'll find my questions there.

Gazettefan, I don't see any retraction of the " shame on you billnewbie" you posted earlier. Are you going to acknowledge your error, or are you simply going to ignore it?

"maxdetail, as it is, I kind of look like Jesus."

G-fan, there is NO WAY you're old enough to grow a beard!
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(I will always remember fondly BibleDude's question to you: "Gazettefan, are you 12???" That is classic!)

I just love songs like 'have a holly jolly holidays', 'white holidays', and 'oh holidays tree, oh holidays tree'.
books like 'twas the night before the holidays', 'how the grinch stole the holidays' and 'a holidays carol' just fill me with holidays cheer! makes me want to bake some holidays cookies, or go holidays caroling! don't forget to check the mail for those holidays cards, and to check the water in your holidays tree!
get the holidays activities ready for the kids, they're going on holidays break soon!

I'm a fan of the Gazette, hence my name. But peckingorder has a problem with evolution. Hey, pecking, what's with the name.

kkrrgg, you should add up the time it takes to read and write posts --15 minutes on the average -sometimes more, sometimes less. I'm on the computer for other reasons. Don't impose your own reading and writing speed on others.

It's always disturbing to read that someone shouldn't post here. All you have to do is skip over what you don't want to read. And all the people I'm debating here are talking about the same thing, yet no complaints about them.

As for the season, Jesus was born in September or October. But, kkrrjj, as a fellow human I wish you good things all year.

maxdetail, as it is, I kind of look like Jesus.

Concerning peckerorder's theory on evolution, just remember: Ignorance is bliss. Crazy religious fanatic.

Someone got claimed a winner in these debates??? Who? What? When? Dang, I missed the announcement. Who were the panel of judges? How were the points measured out? So it's over then. Well, maybe we can try again another time. Take care. Hey G-fan, do you look like Scut Farkus?

I'm new to reading these blogs but found this kind of interesting....
gazettefan
Dec 16, 2009 at 8:24 a.m.
By the way, peckingorder, my average is 15 minutes a day here. Is that how long it takes you to write a one-sentence piece of non-sense?

All posts are dated, and your anonymity allows you to blatantly tell the world that you are here 15 minutes - even someone new to blogging can look at the times and dates and find that statement entirely false.

I find your bickering on theology disheartening on an article meant to bring information to users on events around the area. You have your beliefs, I have mine - can't you all agree to disagree and enjoy whatever season it is you belief in?

;~)

maxdetail, it may appear a problem that christians always dumb-down the conversation (re: how you tap out so easily). But the quick downward spiral of the christians here is a big part of the point.

Don't worry, I said it's an average, not a daily allotment. I know this is rough on you, but hang in there. We need your example.

maxdetail, of course, if you don't like the behavior of fellow christians, you can claim that they aren't really christians. This idea is definitely out there and it is why christians end up feeling lonely in their chrisitanity. All this christian alienation causes like-minded personalities to form factions whose members believe that they are the only true christians. If there's a problem with christianity today, and there certainly is, and our socity, that problem comes from the fact that christianity has failed to stand the test of time. Note how you have to reinterpret scripture in opposition to what god said and meant -reinterpret for the purpose of making it applicable today. Nice try, but it isn't working. There's just to much crazy baggage attached to it. That's why the believers always lose these debates here.

Good one G-fan but hey, that was cool, we were actually having a grown up conversation for a while. {Ding} Oh, rats, I guess your 15 minutes are up. See ya tomorrow monkey-boy.

maxdetail, it's that not they can "claim the moral highground" it's that they MAKE the claim.

maxdetail, your miserable attempt at sesquipdalianism is duly noted. Again, start working on that application.

Yes, prounion, ATONEMENT. ATONEMENT is when someone or something is sacrificed for the sins of others. This is a pagan idea and ritual that was incorporated into christianity for recruitment purposes. It has nothing to do with Jesus.

Thanks, Kleej, but I'm really not that good. As it is, I'm less than perfect. Though there are times when I appear to be perfect compared to people who are far from it.

maxdetail, your 8:40a mirrors nicely how the clergy-class claims its status. It reinterpretations the bible in a way that distinguishes the clergy-class and gives it power over the layman. The Commandment in question only has its literal meaning. Its "newer" meaning is evidence that the belief in god and the creation of religion are human products. Where in the bible is the provision that allows for a non-literal interpretation of what's in it? "God" didn't come up with that idea, humans did.

And the fact that you prefer to be descended from a nut like Abraham and not our animal ancestors reveals a character problem on your part. How does the idea of being descended from a prior species make you feel? That uncomfortable feeling you have is a discomfort based on something unacceptable about your character.

As for the quality of my posts: I suggest that you printout all your posts on this site and attach them to an application for a refund at the college you went to.

Prounion, it sounds like you're still trying to push the myth that Christians can claim the moral high ground.
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Christians can't speak for God, the Scriptures do that.
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Christians can't condemn anyone. We are already condemned and need a redeemer.
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God is not responsible for us being sinful. Adam is along with his offspring.
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No one goes to heaven for being good. Sinners are saved by Christs atoning sacrifice.

Boy I hear ya Prounion, that is sad commentary indeed. I saw that turn in the 70s when divorce became more accepted and now, you are correct, those who say they are Christians get divorced at the same rate.
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1. It's tragic and a commentary on the acceptance of divorce in modern society including what I would call 'cultural Christianity'.
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2. More Christian get married than non so the number would tend higher.
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3. We would have to see what criteria is used to call someone a 'Christian' in those surveys.
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It is a heartbreaker Pro and in no way does it make divorce normative or what God values. God still hates divorce. In Christ, even divorce can be forgiven and lives can be changed for the better BUT the consequences of that sin will be felt for generations.

Sorry DiGriz, I must have spaced that. I tend think of this topic as being Gazattefan's domain. I apologize for the slight.

Thanks, Gfan. I don't know if Frontline episodes are webcast but you might find a rebroadcast available soon. Apparently, there is a "Part Two". Last night's segment was two hours. Now that you remind me, the history might support your "self-hating Jew" thesis but I would expect more about that in part two. My main impression was that Paul's focus was more about tweaking the Jesus sect of Judaism to whatever extent necessary to attract gentiles. Sort of the messianic equivalent of the plaid jacketed, cigar smoking salesman with white belt and pants: "Soooo... whadda I gotta do ta put ya in this religion today, Pal? Ya don't want yer friends ta see the snip-snip in the bathhouse? Hey, no problem cuz we got this baptismal thing that'll do the same thing for ya. What else ya need... undercoating? But I tell ya, ya gotta hurry cuz the end is coming soon."

Apology accepted, thepeckingorder.

Kleej, I am in perpetual awe at the original analysis and excrescence that gazettefan spouts daily. I have rarely seen such fresh and lofty expositions of benightedness. He is truly a regional treasure.

"The good news is that the atonement of Christ can halt and reverse a destructive family heritage. God has sent the remedy."
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Why are divorce rates higher among christians?

thepeckingorder, have you met gazettefan? Until you do I don't think you should assume that an ape can't give birth to a human. I'm mean, look at the patterns of his thought process.
(Sorry gazettefan, that was just too inviting. I still love you bro.)

peckingorder, thank you for your 8:26a.

And re: your 8:25a, are you doing stand-up comedy at the Armory?

peckingorder, maxdetail.... you're dealing with the blog room psychologist called "gazettefan". He can de-cipher every piece of information available on planet earth and in merely 15 minutes per day, he can totally break down what you're thinking, why you think it, and inform you the best course of action in your life. Amazing huh?!

G-fan, the context and meaning for that verse is not so exotic as you are trying to make it. The bottom line is that sin has consequences. We live in a culture where we work hard to remove consequences for a sinful life style. Ancient Israel was a culture that understood corporate solidarity. For example, when you spoke to an Israelite in 300 BC about what the Egyptians did to Israelites in the days of Moses, you were speaking of something that might as well have just happened to that persons family. They felt a solidarity with their people no matter how many generations went by.
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In the days before social welfare if your dad was a drunk your family (innocent kids and all) suffered for it. Even now you can find children and grandchildren who suffer for the sins of their parents.
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The message is that we must think in terms of family. A man must consider responsibility for his family because his sins will effect generations.
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The good news is that the atonement of Christ can halt and reverse a destructive family heritage. God has sent the remedy.
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G-fan, you have a terrible habit of tearing scripture from it's historical and literary context. You are much like the producers for Frontline who have an axe to grind and find liberal theologians who will help push their agenda. They will never offer the other side, never interview conservative theologians who actually ARE experts. At least you go to Scripture, I thank you for that, those producers find any source except those written by the men who were there.

Look into natural selection and you will be on the right path.

sorry fool-on-the-hill.

Evolution is a lot of bunk. In this day and age SOMEONE would have noticed if a mouse gave birth to a wren - or a dog gave birth to a rabbit - or an ape gave birth to a human. It just doesn't happen - sorry to inform you of this.

By the way, peckingorder, my average is 15 minutes a day here. Is that how long it takes you to write a one-sentence piece of non-sense?

Not my point at all, pecking. Nice dodge from the real point. There's no pecking order here. Where's that apology? And what's your view on evolution re: pecking order etc.?

GF if I may be so bold as to answer for Max - yes it is ok for further generations to be punished for others sins. We are all worthless (seaslugs?) in the eyes of the creator. We are worthless because satan who god created, tempted Eve, who then in turn fed the apple to Adam and blammo - 30,000 kids under the age of 5 die each day due to lack of drinking water and we are born with that sin on our heads. Of course that begs the question of if these guys feel responsible for the sins of their direct decendants as if it was their own. I am sure each one of them is willing to pay reparations to the decendants of slaves?
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I do have another question though if we are so worthless why would god take the time an effort to torment us for eternity for not believing in him? Is he unable to simply eliminate our existance? Doesn't it seem a little cruel to keep us around to torture?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg

Quite interesting if you have the time.

RAmen

Maybe the cold weather you have in the midwest is making you 'on edge'.

Now now - watch your language gazettefan. I realize (from the number of postings you have) that this blog IS your life and I am intruding on your turf.

peckingorder, it was a beautifully thought-out and beautifully written post -you rude piece of ___! You owe foolonthehill an apology.

And, peckingorder, you might want to ponder the unwitting -though not quite on the mark- tribute to evolution that you use for a screen name.

foolonthehill, no, I didn't see it, maybe I can find it on that site on the web. Leaving out the anti-semitism of the creators of christianity is a matter of pc. Paul was both a great marketer and a self-hating anti-semitic Jew. Surely what he did and what Jerome later did (quashing the history and significance of Jesus' brother James) led to the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Holocaust.

maxdetail, self-explanatory?! Well if it's self-explanatory for you then the question becomes: Is it OK with you? Is it OK for innocent people to be punished for the "inequity" of an ancestor?

Gfan, did you happen to watch Frontline "From Jesus to Christ" last evening? The consensus of the contributing scholars seems to support your general biblical thesis, with one possible exception. Paul was not so much anti-Semitic, per se. He was simply a great marketeer and salesman. That is what I gleaned.

G-fan, the warning from Exodus seems self-explanatory. What is the problem you have with it?

Ahh - now I see why you are labelled a fool.

"I knew if I cited some evolution theory such as the random chaotic actions of sub-atomic particles being responsible for our consciousness and morality that it wouldn't escape your notice, Fool_on_the_Hill."

Aaaha... the poking stick! Et tu, Billnewbie?

I have previously discredited the chaos argument without rebuttal in these religious discussions. At every visible scale, from smallest to largest, the natural universe is replete with clear evidence of order and harmony. This ubiquitous harmony of all things real has been confirmed mathematically. For example, did you know there is no known qualitative difference between electrons? Each electron is absolutely identical to each and every other electron. For more visible evidence of order and symmetry, look not further than snowflakes, which provide a graphic display of the natural harmony of hydrogen and oxygen atoms in their most abundant state on Earth. This beautifully harmonious molecule, water, is the essence of all lifeforms. I don't know where you are seeing this alleged chaos and randomness but I see order and harmony everywhere I look. (Study fractal geometry for further insights.)

I shall presume that neither of us believes the universe to be chaotic and random. (Wouldn't your God have to be somewhat of a pin-head for the universe to be random and chaotic?) Where we do disagree is how, or in your case how and why, all of this obvious harmony and order came to be. You claim to already know the answer to all such questions, while I wait for science to answer each question, one by one. It's really that simple.

I wasn't addressing the conscience or consciousness in my earlier comment. Since you brought those up in context, I consider the nature of consciousness to be another one of those great puzzles waiting to be solved by science. (Though I do fear that neither of us will feel very comfortable knowing that particular secret.)

billnewbie, re: your gift card post: I'm not clicking on anything you typed with your fingers.

billnewbie, re: your 8:28p: for answers to your important questions, read all 6000 of my posts.

billnewbie, re: your 8:45p: read my 7:04p to maxdetail.

maxdetail, re: your 8:54p, my statement...

"My repetition of the fact that the golden rule is extra-christianity and extra-bible is in response to the chronic claims of christians who insist that they and their religiosity have the moral highground."

...is accurate. Don't you read the other posts here?

And tell me what this Commandment from Exodus tells us about the character of god:

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them [gods and idols]; for I the Lord your God am a JEALOUS God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me.."

So DiGriz, did you give any thought to my questions? Are you still formulating an answer? Maybe you got distracted by the glee you felt at the opportunity to disparage us sheep? Don't worry, I'm patient. Take as much time as you need. and don't worry, I don't really hold to the theory that an unanswered question is acquiescence to the assumptions of the questioner like some do.

We are poor little lambs
who have lost our way
Bah, Bah, Bah
We are little black sheep
who have gone astray
Bah, Bah, Bah
Gentlemen songsters off on a spree
doomed from here to eternity,
Lord, have mercy on such as we,
Baa Baa Baa
(sorry, I just had the urge to break out in song!)

Gazettefan, you said: "My repetition of the fact that the golden rule is extra-christianity and extra-bible is in response to the chronic claims of christians who insist that they and their religiosity have the moral highground."
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That is your own stereo-type of a Christian. Christians have no right to claim the moral high ground. I have demonstrated repeatedly that I'm no better, no worse than you and just as stupid - only in a different direction than you. We are analogous to sea slugs debating the existence of the moon.

Too many verses to mention but just a few summaries: God saves sinners, all have sinned, none are righteous, our righteousness is as filthy rags, we are justified by grace through faith, and so on.
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The 10 commandments do 3 things, they show us something of God's character and what he values, they show us how we OUGHT to live but will always fall short, they point out why we need a savior to reconcile us. The message of Christmas is that God sent His Son into the world to reconcile sinners (those who break His law) back to himself.
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So yes, DiGriz, we are sheep who need a shepherd.
The law of God is to be obeyed out of gratitude for what God has done for us. No one is good enough to go to heaven, no one except Christ has ever earned God's favor. We are sinners saved by grace. The believer will struggle against sin until he dies and trust that the Christ is his substitute. The non-believer will embrace sin and reject Christ as his substitute. We all deserve Hell, the believer has confessed his sinfulness and called on God to show mercy in Christ.
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Toplady summed it up well in his beautiful hymn:
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Not the labors of my hands
can fulfill thy law's commands;
could my zeal no respite know,
could my tears forever flow,
all for sin could not atone;
thou must save, and thou alone.
Nothing in my hand I bring,
simply to the cross I cling

Shame on you Gazettefan for misrepresenting what I wrote at 2:11 today. Here it is in case you want to misrepresent it again.
"There’s no real mystery why the golden rule predates Christianity. God was still God. His creations, humanity, were endowed with a conscience by Him. Every human that ever lived had one. If one lives according to his unadulterated conscience, one will know the golden rule. So is it any surprise that the golden rule shows up in humanity’s earliest known, writings? It would be weird if it didn’t!"

Why do I keep finding myself correcting Gazettefan's bizarre contentions? I'm just speculating, but maybe it's because he doesn't really care whether or not he's accurate.

Regardless of your belief or disbelief.... Merry Christmas!
If you have the chance to go out to RPC and enjoy a Silent Night, make the trip, the church is decorated beautifully, the choir has been practicing, and has great music and singers lined up.
What ever your reason is for the season, a little time to slow down will be a great thing!

I knew if I cited some evolution theory such as the random chaotic actions of sub-atomic particles being responsible for our consciousness and morality that it wouldn't escape your notice, Fool_on_the_Hill. I wonder if you saw on Steve Knox's blog some of the discussion that was going on there. As always when discussing such subjects in multiple comment boards, the comments get shared among them. Over there, the subject was spirituality, at least in part. As you may guess, certain parties who hold that there is no such thing as the supernatural offered a few comments. The surprising thing about those comments was that they seemed to agree that humans have a spirit, a decidedly supernatural entity since it has no physical form, structure or substance. When I wondered about this my queries went unanswered. And as you no doubt know, according to the rules of debate that some hold to, a non-answer is equal to acquiescence. So I speculated about what the theory of evolution had to offer for an explanation of morality in general and the golden rule particularly. Call that a straw man argument if you like, but that does seem to me to be the basis of the theory of the origins of life minus any possibility of intelligent design. Am I wrong? If so, what is the source of our consciousness? I think, therefore I am, but why do I think? And why do I think that some things I think are wrong to think, let alone do? My conscience directs me but what directs it if not God or the random actions of sub-atomic particles? If not God, then why does my conscience match yours? Soooo many questions with only one answer that makes any sense. Why doesn’t that answer make sense to you too?

I thought about trying to reproduce some kind of a gift card here for you, Gazettefan. I'm not sure the effect would be quite what I want it to be. So instead, I searched the web for an appropriate link to some free software, kind of a virtual gift card. Here it is from me to you, enjoy! http://christianity.about.com/gi/o.htm?z...

maxdetail, your cited verses have nothing to do with the fact that the golden rule is a universal phenomenon of biological and social evolution (especially some godly imprint on the heart). Unless we are willing to attribute the idea therein to an unwitting manifestation of subconscious knowledge re: instincts -and maybe that's what it is. In any case, those verses would render the belief in god and Moses and Christ as unnecessary. Why would Paul lay down statements to that effect?

What Paul was doing with those verses was marketing christianity to gentiles in a way that excused them from circumcision and other demanding laws of the Torah (very clever, it might have worked on me). In so doing, Paul laid the written foundation for the Holocaust and the anti-semitism that still haunts the world.

My repetition of the fact that the golden rule is extra-christianity and extra-bible is in response to the chronic claims of christians who insist that they and their religiosity have the moral highground.

G-fan, I wasn't trying to challenge that your constant refrain wasn't true, I really wanted to know the source. I was more interested in your atheistic source so I could understand the significance of repeating it so often.
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I was well aware the Hillel stated it in the negative and that it was a very popular saying at the time of Jesus. It is, of course, testimony to Paul's writings in Romans 2 when he says, "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."
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The Golden Rule in it's many forms is evidence that the Creator made man in his image (the ability to reason, re-create and share the Creator's values.)
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I appreciate you listing the other texts, it is very fascinating to see how that truth was expressed at different times.

maxdetail, re: the golden rule pre-dating and outside of christianity and the bible:

----

Do not to your neighbour what you would take ill from him. (Pittacus, 650 BCE)

Do not unto another that you would not have him do unto you. Thou needest this law alone. It is the foundation of all the rest. (Confucius, 500 BCE)

Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing. (Thales, 464 BCE)

What you wish your neighbors to be to you, such be also to them. (Sextus the Pythagorean, 406 BCE)

We should conduct ourselves toward others as we would have them act toward us. (Aristotle, 384 BCE)

Cherish reciprocal benevolence, which will make you as anxious for another’s welfare as your own. (Aristippus of Cyrene, 365 BCE)

Act toward others as you desire them to act toward you. ( Isocrates, 338 BCE)

This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you. (From the Mahabharata (5:1517), 300 BCE)

What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary. ( Rabbi Hillel 50 BCE)

billnewbie, try to contain yourself, I'm willing to concede that the Samaritan wasn't Jewish. But the bad news for you is that this makes the story even better for my side of the golden rule issue i.e. the good guy couldn't even have been a Jewish christian. So he certainly wasn't a christian. The mistake is immaterial. The New Testament has Jesus telling a story about someone who practices the golden rule without the benefit of the New Testament and Jesus himself. This severely runs against those who falsely attribute it to Jesus and the New Testament.

And you are truly ignorant if you don't know that the golden rule wasn't a christian creation. I'll think about posting a citation. Though I know you're trying to jive people here. Shame on you!!! You know the truth.

Importantly though, maxdetail's question was in reference to the golden rule being PRE-CHRISTIAN -read his post again. You sure like to overlook things. What about that Commandment where god punishes subsequent generations for misbehaving ancestors who think or act against god's ego problem? He is a jealous god by his own admission!

Hey Bill... what's up with this "random chaotic movement of sub-atomic particles" nonsense? Please, no straw men. You know better than that. Don't make me come up there during the Christmas season, young man! ;~)

By the way, the Samaritan was a Samaritan, not a Jew. Really Gazettefan, your knowledge of scripture is poor for someone who claims to be an expert! The original Jewish inhabitants of Samaria were deported to Assyria and replaced by colonists from Assyria, thus the separation from Israel that continues through to Christ's day. They were not Jews and they were hated by the Jews. That's what make the act of kindness by the Samaritan towards the Jew significant. It's interesting that you didn't know that.

billnewbie, thanks for pointing out that someone's depiction of Jesus has him as vapid and mystical as you are. What is a thinking person supposed to think about your response? Let's see. Oh, I got it: You and "Jesus" were stumped!!!

And thank you for your tribute to my expertise.

Now what about that gift card?

And, Gazettefan, you be sure to let us know when you can prove that the golden rule wasn't invented by God. You know, as soon as you can prove that the random chaotic movement of sub-atomic particles did!

maxdetail, yes, I don't like to hand out reading assignments just as much as I don't like taking them here.

If this issue really interests you, do some Googling and you will learn that I'm correct.

But I will say here that although Matthew attributes -Do unto others.....- to Jesus there is nothing in the New Testament that says Jesus created the rule. Further, read about the Good Samaritan. That story has Jesus telling about a JEWISH man who helped an assault victim. No where is the man described as a christian or a follower of Jesus, he is only described as Jewish.

And honestly ask yourself: Prior to Jesus or "christinity" did societies NOT operate by the golden rule? Here's a hint: In order for a society to function at all as a society, the golden rule has to be in effect.

Let us know if you find anything that proves the golden rule was invented by Jesus or christianity.

Another typical Gazettefanism yet again. The proof of his nonsense is in the bible he claims to be an expert in. The Sadducees asked Christ a very similar, in fact nearly identical question concerning the re-married with the same purpose in mind that you have, Gazettefan. I won't bother to give you the biblical reference since you don't take reading assignments anyway, and being a self-anointed expert I’m sure you don’t need one. But I will quote Christ’s answer to those Sadducees for my answer to you, “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” Christ and Christians have been dealing with insincere cynics like you all along. There really is nothing new under the sun, especially when it comes to cynics like Gazettefan.

Wow, billnewbie, why in the world (and I do mean the world) would communication absolutely have to be two-way. If you had an important message for someone and you knew you couldn't get a response, would that keep you from sending that message?! Jeeeze! (If you'll pardon the reference.)

People send earthbound one-way messages all the time. Why not to the dead, how about:
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"Hey, everything's find here. "I remarried and I'm as happy with her as I was with you. Which, I fear, is going to cause quite a stir when we're all up there in heaven together."
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Again, you're not very good at this, billnewbie. You don't think things-out. You've messed-up big-time, this time!

Of course, my example above highlights another problem with the belief of eternal bliss in heaven. Let's keep it simple: A person had a happy life with a spouse who died. The surviving person remarried and had a happy life with the new spouse. What happens when all three end up in heaven? Take your time, billnewbie. Call your clergyman.

PS You don't know anything about evolution.

PPS Steve, I hope you're not insulted by any of this! ;~)

"The golden rule predates and developed outside of christianity. The golden rule is a phenomenon of social and biological evolution."

G-fan, you repeat that at least twice a week. I know you don't like to give sources but I'm very curious where you get that from.

What typical Gazettefan malarkey! He poses an absurd hypothetical and demands that people take it seriously. I suppose it hasn't dawned on him that if people in heaven were sent messages by the living through the dying, how would we, the living, know whether or not they were received? That alone inhibits the living from trying. But of course, the whole thing is moot. What would people in heaven need to be told by us? You know, Gazettefan, if you're trying to show that Christian beliefs are in error, try sincere arguments rather the same kind of condescending nonsense that you've tried over and over again without any results.

As for the golden rule being the product of evolution, yeah, sure. The random, chaotic actions of sub-atomic particles in the brains of humanity have produced morality, huh. And the proof for that? Well, there really isn’t any proof, that’s just the only currently available explanation we have left if we deny the existence of God. There’s no real mystery why the golden rule predates Christianity. God was still God. His creations, humanity, were endowed with a conscience by Him. Every human that ever lived had one. If one lives according to his unadulterated conscience, one will know the golden rule. So is it any surprise that the golden rule shows up in humanity’s earliest known, writings? It would be weird if it didn’t!

Justas....., re-read my post. I didn't say contact with the dead by the living. I said, loved ones of a dying person do not give messages to that person to bring to love ones who previously died. Respond to this.

peckingorder....., the belief in heaven is a manifestation of the fear of the permanency of death.

Being good out of fear of eternal punishment has serious problems e.g. people who believe that it is good to fly planes into buildings will fly planes into buildings to avoid eternal punishment.

The golden rule predates and developed outside of christianity. The golden rule is a phenomenon of social and biological evolution.

We all benefit from a more civilized society.

peckingorder, thats a very good point...MANY more people would commit murders if they weren't afraid of facing God for it.

gazettefan: Heaven is just one of the good things about religion. Another good thing is accountability. People who believe in God tend to live a more civilized life knowing that they will be judged in the end.

Your lack of religous beliefs is very understandable gazettefan. It's hard to grasp something that you don't believe in. I really don't care if you believe in God or not - it's none of my business and not my concern. The 'contact with the dead' part of your comment is really off the wall - I don't know of any religion that preaches contact with the dead. However, meeting-up with the dearly departed in heaven (after you die) is an important part of almost all religions.

Don Diego, you said, "To believe in something soley based on your beliefs is flawed." Can't you see the flaw in THAT logic. You believe things and your belief is based on your beliefs. Everytime you step onto a floor you assume/believe there are joists beneath it and you commit to stepping on it. Belief is simply a cognitive commitment that we make based on how we gather, analyze and filter the evidence we are presented with.
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We all have the same evidence but the materialist will filter out any reasoning that involves invisible supernatural phenomena. The person of faith doesn't hold to that restriction. We examine the same evidence but draw different conclusion because we allow for more evidence. The materialist and the theist are both equally rational and both MUST use logic. After all, that's why God gave us logic.
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God cannot be proven, the origin of all things can't be proven, axioms in geometry can't be proven, the non-existence of God can't be proven but we all approach the same evidence rationally.
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To call people of faith 'sheep' is not rational but an emotional conclusion based in the faith that there is no God.

Justaskme, but matthew..... said it was god's money. I was hoping for a mercy rate.

By the way, religion etc. does give false comfort to survivors of lost loved ones. However, the deep down feeling that all contact with lost loves ones is revealed by the fact that friends and family of dying loved ones never give messages to the dying loved ones to bring to loved ones who died previously. Whenever I brought this fact up here, none of the believers responded. I take this non response to be an admission that all contact with the dead is over.

Though I'm sure that since you now feel cornered, you'll post some interesting baloney below.

Conversely, Don_Diego, if you don't want to believe in God, fine, but why assume that a "reasonable, logical" person must come to your conclusion. I quite disagree with your assertion that there is no logic in a belief in God. Are you sure you've fully considered all the evidence with an open mind?

Do you remember some time back when you asked me if I thought that it could be possible that I could be wrong? Well, couldn't you be wrong? Can't reasonable people look at the same evidence and reach different conclusions? Has all the evidence been found so that a definitive, indisputable logical and reasonable conclusion can be reached? It's obvious that is not the case. In light of that, how can you insist that only your reasoned conclusion is reasonable and logical?

Don_Diego, so what you are saying is that the men who dress up as Santa at the mall should be hauled away for fraud and set away for life? There IS more scientific proof of God than there is not. Evolution theory takes faith, if not more faith than believing in God. We have never seen any creature evolve at a chromosomal level ever, nor will we. We have faith that the sun is filled with Hydrogen, no one has ever collected a specimen. It may be a new element burning in the sun that we have never seen. You must live a terrible existence to have no faith in anything.

No DiGriz - God isn't into refinacing - see your banker for that.

That's where your mistaken Don Diego. If you believe in God, then you can believe that you will reunite with loved ones that pass away. If you don't, then your pain of losing a loved one is permanent - that's a huge difference.

Bill- there is no logic to a belief in god. To believe in something soley based on your beliefs is flawed. Now if you want to believe in a god, fine but don't try to argue that there is any good reason to do so. Faith is accepting something without proof. Without proof there is no reason to believe in something so strongly that you would die for it. It would be illogical to do so. Yes, someone who believes in any god is a sheep. What would you call an adult that believes in Santa?

Matthew...., will god allow me to refi at a lower rate?

Merry Christmas! I hope that everyone enjoys whatever holiday they participate in and that everyone has a safe, happy, healthy and prosperous New Year. I hope things get better with the economy and with jobs and that everyone is blessed with love and happiness.

Actually Matt - read your bible - render unto ceasar what is ceasar's.

DonDiego~ It's not your money, it's God's money. You're borrowing it.

That would be even funnier DiGriz had I not owned an AK-47.

LOL

Don-Diego, is it your contention that "reasonable , logical" people must all come to the same conclusions that you come to or they are just unreasonable illogical "sheep"? Isn't that just a rationalization you make about people of faith so that you need not consider their logic and reason? After all, if one can disqualify the messengers as something inferior, perhaps even contemptible, then there is no need to consider their message. And I wonder how you have reacted to the faithful who have tried to marginalize you for your lack of beliefs in much the same way. Didn't you recognize then what they were trying to do? Do you think that turnabout is fair play? Is that reasonable and logical?

Thanks Don Diego for permission to celebrate the birth of our Gods' only son. But I will continue to try use YOUR money to put up Christian symbols on public property. I doubt that your money will amount to much of a symbol though.

As long as you don't use my money to put up Christian symbols on public property, I will happily allow you to celebrate the birth of your god in a pagan celebration.

Don Diego - you are not forced to participate in our Christian Holiday. Just try to ignore Christmas the same way you probably ignore our other Christian Holidays.

I think DiGriz's point is that the story/belief in Jesus/God (no matter which one), defies all reason and logic. The reason the Christ said that you have to have faith like a little child is because children suspend all reason and logic to believe in something, like Santa Claus. When you think about it, there is as much reason and logic to believe in Santa as there is to believe in a god. We laugh at little children for their belief in such things and say, "AAAWWWW, look how cute that is." We give them the benefit of being a child. What would you think of an adult who believed in Santa? Well, if you believe in a god you throw away all reason and logic like a child, thus making you the intellectual equivalent of a child. Since you are an adult, then you are more or less sheep.

DiGriz, how can you be so sure that it's just hard for people you don't agree with to "grasp that which one does not want to understand, does not take the time to consider, and does not compare to that which is known with logic and reason. Easier to follow the wooley visage in front of you and hoof-it on into blissful ignorance." Does it help you to think of them that way? Does such an assumption about people you disagree with help you dismiss that which they believe? I know you've considered the biblical message and rejected it, but are you certain that anyone who honestly assesses the bible must also come to your conclusion too or there must be something wrong with them as you contend? That they are lazy, dim witted, unintelligent and blissfully ignorant? Don't you think that's more than a little arrogant to make such an assertion? Is it your intent to insult? Perhaps you didn't mean it that way but that's how it seems to me.

Merry Christmas to all!

Yes, Prounion there have been many savior-gods. So what's the difference between Christ and Hercules, Krishna and Horus, et al? For one thing, we know Jesus Christ was an actual historical person. For another, those other gods (or demigods or even just "super" humans) saved people from evil gods or physical catastrophes or taught them how to make themselves acceptable to God. Christ saves us from ourselves. That is, our rebelliousness towards God. You will find that to be what's unique about Christianity, and what is so hard for so many people to accept about it. So Merry Christmas! Why are we merry? Because through Christ we have the promise of salvation.

Actually Bill there are plenty of saviour gods - some of them predating your jesus by thousands of years. FYI.

Merry Christmas!

Indeed, all people of faith should have their faith respected. So many assume that faith is the result of fear or superstition, or worse, ignorance. Such people preclude the possibility that people of faith have made an honest choice in what they believe, have considered the alternatives and have chosen what they believe is right. And since there are many possibilities to choose from, including to believe nothing at all, we should assume that people have made informed choices even if they have chosen to believe something other than what we have chosen to believe. Therefore, we should respect each others' faithful choices and practices including the observances of religious holidays which Christmas is. That does not preclude proselytization since the search for the truth should never stop. When you think you have found the truth you naturally want to share it. But making any practices of faith illegal, trying to force a particular belief on another or making pariahs of people of any faith due to the actions of some who claim to be of that faith is wrong and should not be tolerated by anyone. And of course one should never ridicule another or the honest beliefs they may hold no matter how bizarre they may seem to be.

That said, what is it about the Christ of Christmas that’s different from all the other religions and “human made dogmas” of the world? Why keep Christ in Christmas? Because of all the world’s religions where humans find ways to make themselves acceptable to God only in Christianity through Christ does God furnish a way for humans to become acceptable to Him. As it says in the 2nd chapter of Luke “I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.” There is no need for rituals, no new sacrifices of any kind need be offered, just the acceptance of the free gift of salvation through Christ is all one needs to be right with God. That’s why we Christians celebrate this day. That’s why we give each other presents, because God has given us a present, salvation through Christ. That’s why that on that day they sang out “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.” Peace between God and humanity. That’s the offer of Christmas. Peace and goodwill towards humanity from God.

"What if we stood up to people who cut Christians down like Muslims stand up for their beliefs?" - Eman......What if people of ALL faiths stood up for the Muslims, the Buddhists, the Pagan, the Hindi, Christians and all other diverse faiths realizing there are many equally valid and respectable ways to realizing spiritual enrichment by way of human-created dogmas without always having to wear a particular faith "on your sleeve", without proclaiming only one has the singular "truth", without feeling discrimination/attack, or proclaiming the moral self-superiority of a single one? Oh, yea...in all faiths that would be considered practical application of practicing what you preach!

Don Diego, thats a very, VERY good suggestion.
Filling houses up with junk for "Christmas" is completely assinine...If you want to fill your house with junk, fine, but don't do it for "Christmas".
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I think about the best thing to do would be to donate to one of those **good** charities in your children's names....Put the evidence of such in an envelope and give it to the child and explain what it is at Christmas.......I believe most parents would be surprised at the results if they did this right.
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Buy the junk at another time of year if you must have it.

This is all a bunch on bologna. If you think the reason for the season is Jesus, then don't buy any gifts and see how your family responds. If they are still happy, then they really believe the reason for the season is Jesus, if not, then they don't. Anyone want to take bets as to what percentage of families would be just as happy?

Totally agree with you Eman. People who don't believe are missing out. The love of Christ is so overwhelming, it hard to comprehend. Keep Christ is Christmas! Don't know why people who don't believe can celebrate it without some acknowledgement of the real reason? The lost and confused but there is a savior and his birthday is coming. People get ready to celebrate the biggest birthday party ever!!! And, it doesn't matter who bashes these post. I know the truth and those people don't.