Doctor billnewbie, it is the BELIEF in god that's the problem. That's what we are criticizing. And your previous post unwittingly reveals that belief and non-belief are subjective and that therefore god is man-made.

God is supposed to be involved in everything yet there is no evidence of him at all. During the early era of theism belief in god was based in "clear-cut evidence" -actually delusions and lies which were thought to be reality.

As the human intellect matured, species-wide, increasingly elaborate explanations as to how god manifests himself and how god does not manifest himself were contrived to foster and encourage belief. Those who nourished this after-market religiosity became known as clergy and theologians.

They contrived different causes for human suffering and different interpretations for scripture. They also wrote new scripture and doctrine. Your current explanation for god (which includes his non-involvement where he should be involved) is state of the art theology. Theology has lagged behind the evolution of the human intellect but has nonetheless progressed to the point where it virtually states that god does not exist.

This truth is tugging at your consciousnesses and has driven you into the hellish world of psychoanalysis.

I haven't stated my entire opinion on Fogderud yet. Here it is:

From what I've read, I don't believe he is a pedophile or a pederast. But he is eccentric and presents himself in a way that puts some people off.

warm, you don't even know Dave. Until you do, shaddup.
I usually really enjoy your posts, in this instance, your attempt at humor is falling short.

I see my paraphrase as baffled you, bible expert. Strange that you don't seem to get that message.

billnewbie, simmer down, dude!

I am tired, and I am going to play with my sock puppet now.

Part 3:
So why does God take what looks like innocent people and allows them to be hurt or killed such as with Job’s children? Again, it has to do with sovereignty. If God has a purpose for what seems like a senseless death, the senselessness is only in our perception, or lack of perception. We are limited in what we know by what we see, hear, feel, taste and touch. A good illustration of that is the “Craigslist Killer” which is currently in the news. No one who knew this man had any suspicions that he is the cold blooded killer that he actually is. If God had stricken him down 2 months ago, people like Gazettefan and Prounion would protest that this is yet more evidence of the evil of God. But now that we know the real character of this man, perhaps Gazettefan and Prounion are outraged that God didn’t strike him dead 2 months ago. Humans are in no position to judge God as we do not and cannot have all the pertinent facts, and very often our judgment is clouded by what we want to believe.

Part 2:
Concerning God’s various acts of supposed cruelty, His commanding that people be put to death, even His condemning to hell any who displease Him, there is no denying, or need to deny that these things have or will happen. The contention is that a loving God would not do such things. But again all the writer of such a contention is claiming is that “I wouldn’t do that if I were God”. Atheists (anti-theists) have zeroed in on one particular aspect of God (Love) because this is the one divine aspect that nearly everyone agrees on and it is one they think that they can exploit. And while love is a very important aspect of God, it is not his only one, and as such, cannot be the only one that matters or even the one that matters most. Ignoring the other aspects of God is the deception in trying to hold God accountable for His actions.
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So what could possibly justify these “terrible” divine or divinely directed actions? Again, if one believes that there is no God, this question is moot, but if one accepts, even if just for the sake of argument, that God does exist, then one also must accept that He created us and that as Creator, He has total authority over us, that He is sovereign. As part of human nature, God endowed us with free will, but he also gave us law which he “wrote on our hearts” (our conscience) and instituted within government which He authorized with governmental sovereignty, that is the authority to govern, and therefore impose and enforce the law on us whether we agree or not, which is similar to His own sovereignty though on a smaller scope. So, since He created us, has sovereignty over us, has given His law to us so that we know how to behave, He therefore has the authority to judge us and the authority to condemn us according to another of His aspects, Justice.
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It has been well established that humanity, when it rebels against God, does so on the grounds that we reject His sovereignty. As Americans particularly, we relate well to the revulsion we all seem to have by our shared nature to authority. This is the main attraction that atheism (anti-theism) holds. If there is no God, there is no one to answer to, no judgment to face. We each become our own gods, determining for ourselves what is right, judging our own motivations without regard to any deity outside ourselves, except of course (thank God) for government which is necessary to restrain the other humanistic gods from acting without regard to us. As Satan said to Eve in Genesis when he urged her to disobey God by eating the forbidden fruit, “in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods”, this choice to be as gods is appealing to our character. And it is what leads us to do great evil. But it is a choice we can, but do not have to make, yet we all at one time or another do make that choice to some degree or another. That is why the bible says that our condemnation is just.

So the Holocaust and the Inquisition are held up as proof that there is no God. What I see in all these comments below is a common thread, a declaration by the persons who make these kinds of statements that this is not how they think God should behave, as if saying “If I were God I wouldn’t allow that”. Of course the whole argument is moot if one contends that there is no God because then there is only humanity to which we can credit all the evil that is or ever was in the world, which is not the contention here of those who make these arguments. The argument that “religiosity” is the root of all evil is also nonsensical in that there is plenty of evil in the world that is not related to “religiosity”. Then there is the contradictory argument that “religiosity” tries to force its morality on humanity, a contradiction they seem oblivious to, as if making whatever charge may work is an acceptable practice even if they do contradict (throw it up against the wall and see what sticks), as atheists know that they need not prove anything, that their goal isn’t to build, but to destroy.
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So what is it with God? Why does He allow evil to exist? We’ve all heard of free will as it exists in each of us and its existence is therefore undeniable. Therefore, to have free will means that we all must have the freedom to behave very badly, for if there were any divine limits set on free will, then in fact free will would not exist. Yet God does provide some deterrence to evil. He has established government and he has endowed each of us with a conscience. These 2 devices work remarkably well in restraining the tendency for great evil in most of us. But they do not stop the worst of us, especially when the worst of us gain control of government as the Holocaust and the Inquisition illustrate. So, whether one is a theist or an atheist, the blame for these exercises in evil can only be blamed on the humans who perpetrated them, and the inaction of the humans who could have acted and chose not to.
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So why would God create such human beings with such capacity for evil? Apparently, because these human beings also have a great capacity for good which their free will also enables. If God had made us as automatons, to act only in pre-programmed ways, then what ever we do would have little meaning, particularly on a spiritual level. As an example of that, consider the relationship between a husband and a wife. Their greatest joy in such a marriage occurs when each gives oneself totally to the other, a voluntary subjugation of self for the wellbeing of the beloved, and act of free will. If instead, that husband imprisons his wife, thereby assuring himself of her exclusively and therefore precluding any possibility of infidelity, he may accomplish a similar effect as her free will choice would, but that effect would be hollow, without meaning. His wife must be free to chose or reject fidelity for her fidelity to have any meaning. So it is between God and humanity.

I was gone for a few days yet my ears were itching as though someone were speaking of me. How nice to see that while I was gone I was as yet unforgotten.
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Gazettefan, Gazettefan, Tekel Upharsin. (Being a “biblical expert” I’m sure he’ll get the meaning of my paraphrase)

Mikke, LOL. The sock puppet can also be your lawyer.

If I ever go to court, I plan on bringing a sock puppet as MY character witness, and some Legos.

Bibledude - what made you select this particular religion? Did you do research into the other belief systems out there before committing to this one? Was your family of the same faith? Did you grow up believing?

Bibledude - one of the main arguements that the christians instill in their followers is that evolution is just a theory because no one actually saw it. My point it that the folk around Jesus knew he was coming back in their lifetime and fully expected that to happen in thier lifetimes. Paul then comes back later, after a significant number of them had died of old age, and starts to backpedal because they started to wise up that they had been scammed.

And, bibledude, your "Job" comment means that the Job story is incomprehensible to the average church-goer and believer.

The claim that erudition or scholarship is required to fully understand scripture is the newest form of confining scripture to a language that adherents do not understand. This, too, is a tactic that ensconces the clergy-class.

biblledude, dress it up all you want but you and the others of the clergy-class are merely adjusting doctrine and scripture as a way of benefiting from the environment. And aren't you backlogged on some questions I've asked?

Here's how to answer a question: Re: your Jesus one.

Yes, Jesus would make contradictory statements. If he existed at all, he was a politician. And we all know how they talk.

LOL, "do not bring detox buddy for character witness."

And don't say to judge: "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged."

Gazettefan- You interpret scripture based on the genre, not all is literal. You use text, audience, setting, historical background, linguistics and context to know the genre, whether it is Apocalyptic, Historical narrative, Doctrinal, Rabbinic teaching, Parabolic, Metaphorical (When Jesus says He is a door He doesn't mean He has hinges and opens and closes), Poetic and more. There are three Theodicies that apply to Job but hard to put what would require an essay into a sound bite. You disagree I'm sorry but the fact is that is the correct interpretation of the text you quoted and has been since it was uttered. Laying aside theological terms for a moment do you really think Jesus would say love your enemies but hate your family?

Maybe one of the nicer christians should minister to Kleej, he seems very hostile and confused: Ted Sullivan is one of his people.

bibledude, did god figuratively kill Job's ten children? And did he figuratively torture Job?

It's not a stretch to say that the examples in your last post are figurative. But the problem is: Theology is the industry that boomed when it occurred to some people that careers were to be had by adjusting the meaning of scripture to accommodate what is palatable to restless adherents and to garner new adherents to the fold. (Consider the changing series of explanations for evil.) Hence the the subversive "turn against your parents" verse becomes figurative.

Like a species that struggles to survive, theologians adjust scripture to the demands of the environment.

But the hateful stuff is still there in scripture and doctrine. And it can turn many or all believers into potential time bombs. Of course this is much more pronounced for your fellow believers in Islam. They've been to isolated from secular democracy: their thought processes have yet to be loosened up.

prounion- there are several schools of thought. Some see it as a reference to the resurrection, others see it as fulfilled with the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost, others see it as a reference to the transfiguration, which is the next event recorded in scripture after His prediction in MT 16. Some see it as eschatological event rather than as an imminent event.

Can we start with this? I keep posting but no one will answer.
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Why didn't Jesus follow through as he said he would? He makes it pretty clear in Matthew, Mark and Luke that he is coming before those he is speaking to die, in their lifetime 2000 years ago.

Awesome - finally the athiest's cry for a decent debate has been answered and the christians have rallied themselves. Where is Billnewbie - I am rooting for him and all of you to engage in debate that will really chake things up.

Gazettefan- You have to apply the law of hermeneutics and proper exegesis to get the correct understanding of a text. Rabbinic Hyperbole was used by Jesus all the time. "Remove the log out of your own eye" "If your right end offends you cut it off" These texts are not to be understood literally. I have 2 degrees in Biblical studies and I'm a year away from earning my doctorate in the same. I'm proficient in Koinonia Greek. I'm not sure what you are basing your interpretation of the text on but the one I gave you is the understood interpretation across the board.

gazettefan, no it's because the clergy you're speaking of is imperfect just like everybody else. The difference between them and the clergy I visit regularly is we stick with the word and don't compromise Christian principles. A gallon of sewage makes 1 thousand gallons of clean water "sewage". You'd no doubt understand that one, you're living it. I never thought I'd say this, but, you make the athiests look bad! I'll continue to pray for you!

Bravo Mr. Hitler! (gazettefan) I expected as much from you. Are you and Ted Sullivan a couple by chance?

Kleej, it's good that you're interested in intelligent responses to posts. You should try it some time.

Your clergy are especially vulnerable to this kind of coverage because you and your ilk believe that morality comes from religion and god. People who take the false moral highground sooner or later take the big tumble. That's why your clergy are in the media on a regular basis.

Next question.

gazettefan, any brilliant comeback to the question as to the signficance of the headline to this story? If it was a plumber or an electrician, I guess it wouldn't have the same effect right? Plus, it wouldn't attract all the parasites like it has.

PT, if you want to talk about translation problems, then you must know that the word for "young woman" was misinterpreted to mean "virgin."

That's right, mother Mary liked to have some fun and wasn't a virgin. How else could Jesus be descended from David and Solemen on Joseph's side?

Totally irrelevant, but I must comment:
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Sportthewar:
I LOVE these two terms: "Creepiness factor" and "fishiness." Excellent.

Back on topic, why would this "minister" approach two kids, without parents, and talk to them at all. If you've seen pictures, it's not like the guy is clean shaven and wearing his collar backwards. I'm all for not judging, but with all the weirdness, I can't fathom what this guy was thinking. I would hope any kid would be wary of a stranger approaching them in a BK, wearing a full beard and cowboy hat. No doubt he's a really good guy, but to underestimate his own creepiness factor is stupid. We expect our kids to report suspicious activity, especially when they feel someone is a threat to their safety. Aggressive response or not, why would he not comply first and then explain?
Some fishiness going on here and if I were someone going to his church, I would want to see court transcripts and find out what the truth is.

When you change the meaning of what's in the bible, you are proving that religion and god are man made: The original meaning was literal; now you are claiming it isn't. You are manifesting relativism. You are also manifesting relativism if you disagree with fundamentalists who regard the bible as inerrant. And you can't explain the bible to intelligent by relying on the internal "logic" of scripture. If this is too difficult to understand, get an intellectual to explain to you.

The Holocaust was based in the antisemitism of christianity. Hitler never renounced his catholicism or his christianity. He was never excommunicated by the Vatican.

Statistics show that sexual perversity and the abuse of woman is higher based on higher degrees of religiosity. So is crime in general.

I tried explaining that same thing Bibledude.... with the original Greek translation…. I assumed from his replay tho.. that Gazettefan may be unaware that the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew and the New Testament from Greek….

justsaynotomath..are you mad now? Are you going to tear up another bible in school and show the world your infinite power?

Notice how the headline is already off balance in this article? If a worker from IBM did the same thing, would the headline read, "IBM Worker Convicted Of Obstructing Justice"???
I understand. It's open season on Christians and that's to be expected. Those who set the bar so high have much more expected from them. As Jesus said, "to whom much is given, much is required". Good job Gazette! You've accomplished what you've set out to do! Be proud of your good works.

Gazettefan-I'm not sure how else to explain it but to explain it. The sword is figurative for the division that the Gospel will eventually bring. The result of their faith in Christ would cause division even among family. If a father said to his son, "renounce Christ or you are dead to this family" Christ is saying the greatest loyalty should be to Him. Thus it would bring a sword, a division. He is not saying He desires this but using hyperbole to point out it will happen. As He can not compromise His message His followers were not to compromise their faith, even for their families. Same holds true today. Hey gotta go, sun is coming out.

go ahead gazettefan. you can fold your hands or simply close your eyes and talk to God. He's awaiting your call. 24/7! God is good.

Bibledude~ Very well said. Gazettefan, prounion that's why we've chosen to pray for you guys. We love you too much not to. God bless you!

officerfriendly, the constitution is irrelevent according to the post modern intellects like the "barbarian's" in here. According to them, we don't need laws and guidelines in society. Humans just naturally will do the right thing. Think of the cost savings these intellects can produce with their approach to laws and rules. We won't need police officers anymore. We won't need jails, we won't need alot of things anymore. These guys are geniuses!

bibledude, I don't know what you're talking about but this is the verse I posted:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."

MATTHEW 10:34-39

Gazettefan- Your exegesis of the passage is way out there. I know of no scholar, liberal or conservative, who would agree with your interpretation of an easy passage to understand. Jesus often used hyperbole to communicate a truth. His point is about the reality of what the message of the Gospel will do, it will cause division even among family. If a person converted to Christianity he or she would be removed from the synagogue and ostracized from family. Their love for the Lord was to surpass even their love for their family members. Jesus spoke over and over and over about how important it was we love one another.

Kleej, did Jesus say that before or after he said?:

"Father, why have you forsaken me?"

Hey, razor...., do you eat with that mouth?!!!

Exaclty Kleej - the truth is solely through your god - the rest will burn in hell right?

Razor - I thought that was god's plan? Wasn't he supposed to allow satan to screw things up so his son could return to win the final battle with satan so that the believers could go to the holy kingdom? If you don't believe that look out a number of your thiest friends do - that's why they would tend towards a holy war (Iraq) and why they would view a nuclear war as having a silver lining.

Father almighty, forgive these "barbarians" for they know not what they do. Lead them to truth which is soley through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Note to the "barbarians": You are free to call on God 24/7 as always! The line is open. Once again, our prayers are with you!

This guy is setting a good example.....so much for FAITH.

okay Prounion.. I get it. From now on we'll just refer to you big tough athiest's who are going to change the world as the "barbarians". Again, we'll continue to pray for you.

That's right, you holy rollers, party's over.

You people are irrational, uneducated, dangerous and a bane on humanity. You have set human progress back by millennia.

Matt it is the masses that are the reason why you will see athiests come out out into the open more and more. See there used to be a time when we would sit by and watch you guys do you thing, but its just to dangerous now to allow for your imaginary friend talk to go unchallenged. Too many nukes, wars, genocides, not to mentiuon petty nonsense arguements over gods will towards homosexuals and abortion. So now we do not let your faith go unchallenged - we stand and say hey that's BS - support your conclusions, and you guys say we are tools of the devil. You won't change but you better believe we will be educating your youth against you poison.

Wait why do I feel hot all of a sudden, and when I walk under these clouds my hair stands on end as if I am being exposed to an electric field. Hey stop praying for me immediatly!

Our prayers are with you as well "prounion". God bless you.

Wow christians - you guys have a handle on history huh? Really looking back on it with a scientific eye that scrutinizes the past and evaluates the evidence using the scientific method. Then why can't you guys explain the bible verses where god is ordering the slaughter of children or ripping fetuses from thier mother's wombs?
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Time and agian we see groups of christains doing that very same thing throughout history, but you guys really want to look back and use history to support your arguements.
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The founding fathers of this country were athiests and agnostics for the most part - I will leave it to you to look that up, or see previous posts.
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Matt - your were making the point that your values came from god and you haven't killed anyone, I was stating that I hadn't either and many other athiests hadn't, even without the devine supernatural influence. To answer your question though - the laws against murder are there for christians that kill abortion doctors.

Not being mean. Just displaying our unconditional love for our fellow brothers and sisters. God bless you as well 'gazettefan'

Now you guys are getting mean, real mean!!!

;~)

Absolutely! God bless you GAZETTEFAN. Peace be with you.

don't worry gazettefan, the rashes will subside. It's just part of the growth process. I can see how badly you need prayer in your life so I've got that covered for you! God bless you.

Actually, darius, although I don't like people praying for me (it tends to show up as a rash), I may have been a little hasty with my retort. Apologies. But try to be careful.

gazettefan, great idea! God created those trees. Thanks for the tip.

PT--correct. They are at war with people like you and me because they're incapable accepting truth in their lives. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong personally, but to them, it has everything to do with it. They have no moral absolutes in their life because they don't believe there are any. We have plenty of politicians and govt. officials leading our country that fit that mold. This country was created in the image of God whether "they" would care to admit it or not. That's why our forefathers put it in writing. As Mathew said, the pragmatists get their jollies trying to prove how intellectually advanced they are than anyone else. All you have to do is look at history and it makes these so called "intellects" look real silly.

Hey, darius, go pray up a tree!!!

Matthew you are wrong about christian principles being the basis for this country's origins. If that were true, we'd have laws that would be based in crazy ideas like this:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."

MATTHEW 10:34-39

I shall continue to pray for you all.

PT, your newest post was easier than talking on point, wasn't it. I responded to your Orwellian attempt to change the meaning of clear, literal, (non-figurative) language.

And, if you want to change the meaning of scripture and Jesus' and god's words, then you are admitting that religion and god are man-made.

PT, your post was full of great wisdom. Something people like prounion and gazettefan are opposed to because their pride won't allow them to. These people are so busy burning inside that their souls have turned to cynder. To them, it's not about what is right and is good for the masses, it's about what serves their selfish few. It's called pragmatism. You want proof of that? ....watch the posts they put up following this one! Everytime they type a comment that make my point... With that, I'll rest my case.

prounion, so why do we have laws then? Why do we have rules then? You really think our society can function without them? Do you think if we just recommend rules and laws and people just hold "themselves" accountable they would?? What fantasy world are you living in. This country was at it's greatest when the masses were adhering to Christian principles and not that of pragmatic's new world view of the way things "ought to be" I don't need my God to hold me accountable, I hold myself accountable to him because I've believe in those values. The pragmatic society that we're in would prove that to be true. The further away from God this country has gotten the further down the tubes it's going. There's no denying it. The one's who do aren't interested in truth and would cut off their noses to spite their faces.....just like what's happening in this country now. Athiest's worldview: "We'll ignore history and we'll watch this country go down the tubes because we're gonna prove to the world we're right...so what if it means we give up our freedoms who cares, we just want to be right" ...GREAT PLAN PEOPLE. It's called selfish.

Gazettefan.. By your verbal attacks and insults it appears you are at war with anyone who does not believe as you do.. Especially Christians.. I am not insulting nor verbally attacking you...

PT, I thought it would be Matthew.... who would be the first one to thumb through his dogged-eared copy of:

How to Turn the Bad Crap in the Bible into Nice Crap
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By your explanation the younger people in the verse should be at war with the older people -including parents. I'm not at war with anyone for their beliefs. The verse doesn't apply to me. It applies to christians like you and Matthew.....

And importantly, the verse doesn't address differences in beliefs between the younger people and the older people. It only screams the narcissistic need for Jesus to have children love him more than they love their parents. This is dangerous, very dangerous. It exacerbates youthful rebellion toward parents by turning that rebellion into hatred sanctioned by the supernatural.

Faith is not the point here. Maybe he approached the boys with pure innocence, but in this day and age --- you NEVER approach a kid that does not have a parent with them.

If he truly only told them about a concert, why did they report an attempted kidnapping? How does information about a concert turn into an attempted kidnapping? That is where I'm getting lost in this story.

Matthew...., your response is equivalent to the rationale of those Nazis who after WW II ended believed that their best defense was to claim that they believed they had done the right thing in murdering millions of people.

So Matthew....., the poster here, the New Testament verse below makes sense to you:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."

MATTHEW 10:34-39

How does this verse jibe with your "love your enemy verse"?

Gazettefan..If your Father was a Christian, would this then not be truth?... when you understand the word "Sword" translates from the Greek in which it was written "Machaira" which figuratively means "War"... I do believe from reading your posts, you would be "At War" with your father, Would you not?...
And before you go down the next obvious road.
The Loss of "Life' being referred to, is from the original Greek "Psuche" which implies Loss of "Spiritual" life or, your "Soul"...

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."

Matt - amazing all those athiests out there that somehow managed to not kill anyone without god in thier lives. In fact I managed to stay away from the actions on your list as well.
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See that's exactly why you and your kind are so dangerous. You take it for granted that you need a higher power to hold you accountable and you assume you are to feeble to understand the details. So someone comes along with an arguement from the bible and convinces you that you need to slaughter the infidel, because god wants you to and he is the one you need to answer to, also you to not have faith is to be satan's pawn. So you snap to it and next thing you know you have a good old fashioned genocide, burning (people or books your choice here), or inquisition.

"A man who should act, for one day, on the supposition that all the people about him were influenced by the religion which they professed would find himself ruined by night." ~ Thomas Macaulay

What's your point? Makes perfect sense. You're just choosing to look at it in your own, devious way. Now read the book of Matthew. You intellects have been grasping at straws for years. God's plan is what it IS. Our forefathers built the laws of this land based on God's laws. You can fight it all you like. I'm not like you. I don't sit around on my hands trying to disect everything until it fits with my plan and makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. I know who's in charge and what's required of me. Guess what, it's working pretty well too. I haven't killed anyone, I haven't stolen from anyone, I haven't cheated with anyone else's spouse....I could go on and on. You see, humans are fallen (yes, even you) and we do require a higher power to be held accountable to because we're not capable of doing it ourselves. Once you come to grips with that, you'll breathe much easier. Move along now!

Matthew wrote: "gazettefan, have you physically seen Bin Laden? How do you know he exists? Because the media tells you so? Where's your proof? Have you met the guy?"
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Mathew here is a fun exercise: replace gazzettefan with Matthew, replace the word Bin Laden with god and media with religious establishment (writters/editors of the bible as well as your pastors) and answer the questions.
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For the next mind expander - I will state that bin laden and not god was responsible for creating the earth, prove to me that logically god is the creator using evidence.

Oh, don't bother Matthew..., I have it. And guess who wrote it. That's right, MATTHEW wrote it. The very person for which you are named. No wonder you blocked it out.

Enjoy:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."

MATTHEW 10:34-39

This one even rattled billnewbie to his core.

gazettefan...the "empty vessel"?? Talk about great entertainment! You should have someone play the violin while you're posting! Or do you have one of those already? Probably the same one you hallucinate with when you're posting.

Matthew..., your post is pathetic. It reveals the empty vessel that you and your kind attempt to pass off as scholarship.

Can you type out that hateful Jesus verse I'm talking about?

You haven't heard or seen anything until you've seen and heard the Huntington Place Singers in concert.

Rock on, HPS.

ruserious: Animal sacrifice is a component of many religons...like christian concerts are to yours. It may seem weird to you (and me, too), but they are on the same level. To some other religons, rock concerts are weird.

SarahB1, who said he was going to the county? Mercy still does Detox, and there are other centers in rock county that do detox. You are just making an assumption.

gazettefan, have you physically seen Bin Laden? How do you know he exists? Because the media tells you so? Where's your proof? Have you met the guy?

By the way Matthew, it is Jesus who speaks in that hateful verse.

lovestocrap, it's a new day and you're the one bringing up a subject that you chronically attribute to me.

Here's more proof that god doesn't exist:

The Inquisition

OK, now respond to that.

Matthew...., do you love bin Ladin and his crew?

And for consistency, what about the New Testament verse that pits children against their parents etc?

No one who has a defect may come near to me, whether he is blind or lame, stunted or deformed, or has a broken foot or hand, or has a humped back or is a dwarf, or has a defective eye, or has oozing sores or scabs on his skin, or has damaged testicles. ---God.
.
Nice guy huh Matt?

lakennedy asks: "how would you like it if someone you and your family don't know approached your children and invited them to an animal sacrifice?"
I'm a devout Christian, and agree that this man excersized very poor judgement at the very least, and wouldn't put up with my favorite pastor in the whole world asking my children to an animal sacrifice...but how is that related? (Not having time to read the last 12 hours of posts-maybe I missed something. But I can't imagine how this could make "animal sacrifuce" relate to "Christian rock concert". Isn't that quite a stretch to make a point?)

Those words ought to strengthen the pro-torture argument...

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you...." Jesus Christ

Gazette, your reputation surpasses your explanation. Any time you use the words...Christian, clergy and children in the same sentence we all know exactly what you are referring to. The same thing you have referred to on every topic that even hints of the subject of Christianity. You'll figure it out and nice try!

This man is not evil, and no one is trying to make him appear to be. He wasn't convicted of obstruction because he was a christian, as Pharm earlier pointed out: there were more than likely christians on the panel. He was convicted of obstruction because he did obstruct justice. That was a bad choice on his part.
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Matthew, how would you like it if someone you and your family don't know approached your children and invited them to an animal sacrifice? Or perhaps to a brisk? You'd be appalled. As would I. I teach my son not to talk to strangers. I think these kids acted appropriately...regardless of the subject manner, it is silly to approach two unchaperoned minors that you don't know and don't know you and start inviting them anywhere...I'm sure he believed his intentions were good, but his actions obviously raised a red flag here.

Matthew...., are you high?! You and your ilk actually believe that non-believers think none of the rules apply to us. You are manifesting your christian need to have another group to hate.

The Inquisition, The Holocaust, and the christian practice of raping, torturing, and burning women for being "withches" were pre-post-modern methods for your beloved christians to impose christian morality on the world.

Who are the officers who did such a thing?

Matt - I assume you mean me or fellow athiests as post modern intellects? If so what do you see as our selfish agenda?

Anyone who believes this man was convicted because he was a Christian is not being logical. I`m sure there were Christians on the jury, just as I am sure that they viewed the evidence and found him guilty, in a very short time, not because of who he is but what he did.

During a safety check in Illinois my daughter handed her license to the officer, he then throws the license back into the car, order every one out and searches the vehicle. If it's important to search a vehicle, then it is important the police follow procedures and obtain a warrant. But, you have to give them your license when pulled over and follow instructions. Keep your mouth shut do as your told but don't waive you rights.

biscuit5, very true. It's easy for the modern intellects to just take God out of the equation so they can justify their own selfish purposes and agendas. They have no interest in accountability, yet are the first to complain when they feel they've been violated. How do these self servers deal with laws they don't agree with? If the speed limit is 65 and they get stopped for doing 90, do they claim the laws don't apply to them because they're "post modernists"??

Ok white man no pastor collar around neck, black man in passenger seat on way to detox, out of state plates on truck....kids taught not to talk to strangers! I am a grown adult and this would have freaked me a bit, not the time to preach the lord on the way to detox with someone!!

lovestocrap, that was a broad comment that addressed how you and your kind endeavor to fill the minds of children with a lot of harmful crap.

It's interesting how you can focus on digging yourself out of trouble re: the pedophilia matter but you run away when it comes to debating belief, scripture, and doctrine. This is substantial proof that your focus is in a very odd place.

gazette, I was referring to your post from 9:33...the last time I checked 9:33 is earlier in time than 9:42. Maybe it is you who needs to re-read. And the rest of your post makes no sense at all...getting to be quite common place here.

lovestocrap, re-read your 9:42 post. It was you who broached the subject of pedophilia. Your inability to understand anything includes your inability to understand the bizarre creature known as lovestocrap.

Good one, MooShoo. Maybe lovestocrap can visit him and they can pray together.

Actually gazette, it was you who derived pleasure from such accusations. And I quote "Instead, you participate in the christian clergy's war on children". I would say that is the pot calling the kettle black...wouldn't you say? Turn about fair play or is that how guilt works? It's just ok for you to try and justify your actions by accusing others? If this is truly the case, you need help. Get it right away. It will help your anger issues as well.

lovestocrap, it was you who turned innocent children into villains. This is what your church does to the victims of christian clergy child-rape.

And your previous post also reveals that you derive pleasure from the idea of child-rape by using it as an insult. You throw insults because you can't engage in any kind of intelligent debate with anyone.

This has nothing to do with his personality, his choice of religious beliefs, the DA's personal beliefs about religion, or anyone elses's opinion of Fogderud. The fact is he RESISTED officers who were acting lawfully investigating a call of a possible child abduction. All he had to do was cooperate and apparently he did not.

I'm commenting on the story gazette...I didn't realize my sole purpose was supposed to be debating with you. I'm not in the mood to read your foolish rantings. So, write all you want. It all ends the same. You still need counseling. Get some help to get over your issues with the little boys. Were you a priest at one time and this is how you deal with the guilt? Sick!

Yes, MooShoo, and then he went to the pop machine and turned the Mountain Dew into wine.

lovestocrap, you don't have the courage to fearlessly engage in debate. Instead, you participate in the christian clergy's war on children.

Anyone of you ever spent time with Dave? I have, I have spent a great deal of time with him. He may be different, and difficult to understand, but he is anything but a menace to society. For years he made a home for those who had no home, he gave clothes to those who had no clothes. He still feeds the hungry and at the time of the incident he was taking someone to detox because the police wouldn't. I saw the bruises that Dave suffered following his arrest, but Dave forgave the police that harassed him, because that is Dave's nature. I am sorry that Dave was misunderstood but if you knew Dave you would know that about him, he is usually misunderstood. Dave if you are reading this you have a ton of support and somewhere Pat is smiling down at you because you still are out there doing God's work. By The Way everyone, the rock concert was great.

mamato3...for the record...Pastor Dave is not black. I do agree that the police force is getting a bit cocky in their actions. I wasn't at the scene and it's been a long time since I have seen P. Dave, but it's hard to believe two teenage boys would think a Pastor giving them a flyer about a Christian rock concert would really think he was trying to kidnap them. I mean, really. A 60 year old man. What was he going to do...hit them with his cane and they were going to do exactly what he told them. Sounds a bit far fetched to me. Of course if they come from the same sort of homes as some of the posters here, with all the hate spewed towards Christians, it wouldn't surprise me if they had done it on purpose.

To whoever talked about how peaceful Jesus was:

Jesus considered himself a loyal preacher of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is replete with violence that is exacted not only by the morality of that book but also by the actions and speech of god himself. Jesus never repudiated the violence of the Old Testament.

Nor did the subsequent clergy of christianity. Nor does the subsequent written doctrine of christianity.

To whom it may concern:

There may very well be some clergy and some adherents who live out their careers and lives with a positive effect that exceeds their negative effect.

If I generalize or seem to generalize about religion it's because I can't support a belief system that is so clearly based in irrationality. Even the good clergy and good adherents of a system that is based in irrationality are culpable for perpetuating the bad that comes out of that system.

Moderate christians contribute to the danger of fundamentalism. Moderates attempt to produce more moderates but in doing so they sometimes produce more fundamentalists. Consequently the danger of fundamentalism is perpetuated. And moderates themselves are ripe for the dangers of extremism when they are mixed with certain historical and social forces. This is a reference to Nazi Germany.

The good that believers do comes from their humanity. They are capable of doing the same good without promoting an irrational belief system. Morality is an adaptive phenomenon that developed as humans evolved.

Excellent points, lakennedy.

"The list goes on and on. "In fact" many, if not most, organizations that exist to help others are faith-based." - jstwndrn

Sorry, I completely disagree. I think if you started counting up all the charitable, nonprofit organizations in Janesville, you might be very, very surprised. Some secular organizations actually operate with no active, on-going fundraising and little or no acclaim while quietly doing amazing work helping those in need without preaching and without having to proclaim their goodness! Imagine!!!

Christians have always been persecuted we speak a truth that holds each man and woman accountable, and nobody wants to hear it, who wants accountability in this day and age when self gratification is more important than lets say God. Pastor Dave was just doing what our lord asks of us all.
So hey JPD pull me over and lets talk about what master you serve!
remember
"you shall be judged"
Biscuit

gazettefan:
Why don't you tell both sides of the story while you are at it? How much good is the Christian faith responsible for? ECHO...brainchild of a former priest of Janesville's St. Mary's Catholic Church; rotating shelter for homeless men...collective effort of a variety of local churches; Salvation Army, providing compassion for decades in the form of food and shelter in the name of Jesus Christ; Food for the Poor, a religious organization providing the poor of various small countries world-wide with the basics of life such as shelter, well water, livestock, school supplies, clothing, etc. The list goes on and on. "In fact" many, if not most, organizations that exist to help others are faith-based.
Why do you feel compelled to condemn us all for the actions of some?

USMC1964: I'm pretty sure you have got the wrong Pastor Dave. I first met him in the 1960s and he was a minister of the gospel way back then...in fact you might say he has been "Semper Fidelis", my friend!

Is Pastor Dave the pastor at the Overflowing Cup that is a former Biker (not sure if it was Outlaws or Hell's Angels) and has a 1%'er tattoo? If so, maybe that explains his reluctance to be cooperative. If I have called out the wrong pastor, I apologize.

1. "he was charged with disorderly conduct in August 2007" August 07...SERIOUSLY??
2. I wouldn't be surprised if they treated him like he was pond scum...some of our officers behave as if the authority has gone to their heads a bit too much; treating people decently shouldn't be forgotten no matter what your position of authority is.
3. And I hate to say it but it did cross my mind as to if those teenagers were actually scared or out to see if they could cause an older black man some trouble just for fun.
4. Yes, he did break the law but again, we won't ever know how he was really treated either.

Officer: "Hi, I'm Tom, and I'm a Leo, what's your name?" Hmmmmm. I also have been the recipient of a, well, er, more than one...okay, several routine traffic stops, (which is a little different than a suspected abduction) and I can't remember ever having an officer simply ask me my name. Sorry for the sarcasm, please take it lightly, as it is meant. I was just trying to imagine such an exchange.

The evil that people do in the name of God and Christianity is not a true representation of the faith, but it has been a stumbling block to people for ages. Jesus Christ turned his back on violence. Doing violence in the name of God is nothing less than hypocrisy and evil.
People weren't really murdered for the sake of conversion to Christianity, (which would be a rather self-defeating way to realistically build the church) they were murdered for the same reason that most people are murdered. Evil, which often reveals itself through the quest for power and control over others.
I can't speak for anyone else's faith, but my faith has not murdered anyone, any more than you personally, gazettefan, are probably responsible for some abhorrent practice by some of our ancestors.

Perhaps, instead of making the officers jobs more difficult, it would have been wise to just answer their questions.
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When I was pulled over for a broken tail light, the officer asked me my name immediately...before he asked for my license. Then he said "Well, Lisa, the reason I stopped you today is because you've got a tail light out..." He then asked for my license, ran it, and gave me a warning.
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By the way, why would it be more naive to believe that the police were fabricating rather than the minister? I doubt the police just pulled him over fun...

lakennedy:
"...wouldn't tell the officer his name...Bricco said". Since when does an officer engage you in conversation and ask you your name? They request your license and look for themselves, do they not? It might be naive to unquestionably accept every aspect of how the officers presented this stop.
Perhaps Fogderud, knowing he had done nothing wrong, resented being treated like a criminal before anything in the least had been determined regarding the situation.

And all three of those theisms have the same god. And the christian faction of that belief in that god has its own factions and members of those factions murder each other too.

Kleej, how could you not have a clue that your "faith" has murdered millions of people? Many, many more than the christians who were murdered -which mostly took place in the very early years of christianity.

As a matter of fact, all the murdering done by your "faith" was done for the purpose of converting people to it. And now your "faith" relies on all that murdering. Know what you are talking about!!!

Kleej - you are right historically - when christians are the minority they are attcked by the other monotheisms. Unfortunatly they also have no problem bringing the slaughter when they make the majority and have the power. All for an imaginary friend, its really sad.

nemesis:
I don't think anyone is trying to see him as evil. Just as a criminal. Which he is, since he obstructed justice. His choice...

I love it when a religous person, who is defending the persecution of christians, tries to say that the rest of us are brainwashed...seriously? The Christian faith, maybe all religons, only exist because of their ability to brainwash. Ever hear of "indulgences?" What a joke. Move on.

"Fogderud wouldn't tell the officer his name, turn off his vehicle or allow a search, Bricco said"
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Why wouldn't he do these things? If he was just spreading Gods'word, why should he be afraid to tell the police his name, for Gods sake?
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Think about it this way: a stranger approaches your child and starts talking about an animal sacrifice he's excited about. Your child freaks out and tells the police. You would be glad your kids acted this way. While your specific religon doesn't promote animal sacrifice, some do. And the arguments listed below could be made in defense of someone who was performing said sacrifice. I think the police and the D.A. acted accordingly...Fogderud did obstruct justice by failing to cooperate with the police, a.k.a. enforcers of the law...His choice. If his religon puts him above the law, then there is obviously something wrong with it.

Christian's have been under attack for centuries. It's just now magnified because the post modern intellects are those barbarians in corporate america brainwashing the masses. It as simple as that. People willing to compromise the future by wiping out history and values from society's conscience. We're supposed to learn from our history, not repeat it!

Also, to those of you on the jury, I'm sure you think you did the right thing according to how you were made to perceive this case, but unfortunately, you made the wrong call on this one. The BDN reports that Bricco stated that "even Osama Bin Laden and Hitler could scrounge up character witnesses" in regard to people who supported Dave Fogderud. As could you, also, I'm sure, Ms. Bricco. You would better serve yourself and your community by saving your hard-line stance for truly criminal cases that involve the likes of James Koepp and Kyle Hicke.

Why is this even a story?
Oh that's right - let make any reference to someone who is a christian evangelist seem to come across as one who is evil.
It shows the district attorney has utter contempt and an "axe to grind" for anyone who is a christian/evangelist.

Dave Fogderud has devoted his entire adult life to serving Jesus Christ and spreading the gospel. Very sad that he should get raked over the coals in Janesville. But, at least Ms. Bricco got a "W" for her record, sad to say.

Wow!

I remember as a child how our church youth group would canvass a neighborhood with "tracts" of scripture. I always felt uneasy and out of place. He is just about my parents' age... so I know where he is coming from. However, nowadays, you wouldn't dare promote your specific beliefs this way. People are too afraid of child molesters, for this kind of behavior to go on.

I feel sorry for him... he is just doing what he has probably always done. Preaching the scriptures the way we used to, doesn't work anymore. Poor guy.

I absolutely understand why the police did not give him a reason for the arrest. What if it would have actually been a child enticement or worse?