lakennedy, I agree with you. Dawson wanted to sell beer and they fought it hard. This will cause problems I am sure! The city manager's kid plays hockey, that's why they don't care what we think. Nothing like using your seat to benefit yourself. I bet if they did a survey to see how many people use the ice arena it would be way low. Putting your child in hockey is pretty expensive. So, we're going to make sure the families with money have something for their kids to do when this town is falling apart? Does the ice arena have grants for kids who parents can't afford it? This should be a no brainer!!!
I would hope if the city wastes the money given to them like this they are held accountable!!!

tom1cass2: Sorry for assuming your gender! People do it me all the time, based on my username. But did you actually read what you just posted? Very negative, very confrontational and insulting. I think I speak for the majority here that we would like to keep this forum on a more friendly tone. And we don't need to "get over" anything! We are ALL entitled to our views. Obviously we disagree about the government ice arena, that is fine. But no need to resort to name-calling, or posting how "tired" you are of reading other's comments. And how in the word do you ASSUME that I am "not liking anything that is going on in Janesville"? That is absurd. Good day ma'am.
the truth: Actually I found your post quite lucid and understandable. You are right! When people come into the city they do spend money, no doubt about it. But that fact is used by some to obfuscate another fact, that being that the government ice arena is a money loser. This has already been discussed ad nauseum, so I won't repeat the arguments here. Suffice it to say that most people seem to be against this, but the city government is bound and determined to keep this elephant alive. Ce la vie.

SuperDave - I am making an attempt to respond to you however based on your other posts, you will probably not be able to comprehend this. I guess this will really be for the benefit of the others reading these posts. Yes, I said the ice arena was not set up as a money maker. You are saying you were told differently and that the ice arena would bring money into the city. Well, here is an example of how it will bring money into the city. On a weekend, there is a hockey tournament held. Teams from out of town come here bringing their families and fans. These out of towners spend there money at our hotels, restaurants, shopping centers, and gas stations. The ice arena will no doubt not produce a profit however the other benefits outweigh this.

Personally, I don't go to the ice arena. I've never been a hockey fan and don't have anyone in my life who is. Now that they have beer will I go? Still no. I don't think that the availability of beer is going to draw people who wouldn't have otherwise already been there.
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But, making it available here does open a door for Dawson to serve, in my opinion. I wouldn't mind having a beer when watching softball...

deborah21154 - Where in my post did I say it was a seller's market? Additionally, where did I say you overpaid for YOUR home? The answer is nowhere to both. You stated people were "trapped" here because they could not sell their homes which is an absolute falsehood. If your lower your price enough, someone will pay. No denying that. This city does have a number of wonderful things to do, however pretty much everything you listed off is a physical activity. The ice arena (and being able to watch the games played there) would provide something for those physically unable to participate in other activities something to do, among other benefits.

Oh and Superdave if you want to ignore my comments thats fine with me I really don't care!

Also Superdave knowing that you don't like the words 'complain & whining" I will use the words moan and groan. I am not the one that is always moaning and groaning about what the city is spending money on. I for one believe the Ice Rink is worth all of this. If my taxes go up 10.00 or 20.00 a year they go up. I live in the real world and know that my taxes are going to go up. I also know that I will have to pay taxes on things that I don't use or feel are stupid but I don't moan and groan about it. I really think you need to stop calling other people negative and start looking at yourself.

Superdave I have a very positive attitude toward what can happen in Janesville not a negative one.You are the negative one not liking anything that is going on in Janesville. Also for your information I am not a SIR!! Do not assume anything by a user name don't you know assume means you make an ass out of u and me. And you make a big ass out of yourself!

Give up this plan already! At the very least, this should only be carried out if the people, via a referendum vote, approve it. We have too many needs, especially in terms of schools, to spend on this. If it is so profitable, then someone in the private sphere will do it.

I forsee a new ice arena being built by the time this BS is all said and done.......... and there is not a darn thing we can do about it.

tom1cass2: You are the negative one sir. Complaining about other comments is a waste of my time.
Long_Time_Gone: I have no idea what you are trying to say. What are you trying to say?
dudefromjsvl: You say "it needs an upgrade". OF COURSE it does! This elephant will always require expensive, ongoing maintenance and upgrades. That is the problem, dude!
thetruth: You said "So what if the city looses money on this ice area. It is not setup as a money-maker". That's not what we were told before, we kept hearing over and over that the government ice arena would "bring money into the city". Which is it? Let me answer that for you. The government ice arena is a net money LOSER (not "looser"). And it will continue to be, forever, until someone in city government with a positive vision for the city realizes that we cannot continue to throw money at this waste of space.

Deborah21154
Your comments are great. Janesville has always been a good place to live and if you can't find it here it is in our surrounding area.
We will survive and grow as a city by living within our means and realizing the positives that we already enjoy.

thetruth

It's far from a seller's market here. Not talking about me personally -- I didn't over pay for my home.. haven't had second or third mortgages on it and haven't refinanced it every few years. I've lived in mine for over 20 years.

I'm really sick of hearing how there is nothing to do here. How many Parks does Janesville have? We have access to the river at numerous places for water related sports. Tennis Courts, Basketball Courts, etc. There's movies, bowling alleys, many places and different type of places to go out and eat. There is a bike trail.. shopping malls.. golf courses... etc. etc. etc. And in the winter months there is ice skating available at Traxler Park. It's 45 minutes to either Rockford or Madison if there's nothing here for you to do.

This ice arena has been and still is nothing more than a money pit. With unemployment as high as it is here now, this is NOT the time to being tossing even more money into that money pit.

Janesville is not hurting if they can give away $350.000 dollars..Of course with the beer sales and arrests they will get it back.

$350,000 - That's exactly the tax incentive amount needed to pay to a corporation that will bring 250 good paying jobs to Janesville.

thetruth, it will be a cold day in Hades before I let someone like you drive me from my home just because you don't like that I don't like the way you want to spend my money. You could use some exposure to modern philosophy pertaining to civilized debate. I suggest Voltaire, particularly this quote, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”(Though some dispute that Voltaire was its actual source.) Thankfully, these posts are anonymous and therefore I need not worry about you showing up at my door with a moving van and a mob.

fbcoach66 - I bet that "lame" bike tunnel would have been appreciated by the kid on rollerblades with the backpack on his back this afteroon. Yellow lights were flashing as the cars were speeding through the intersection not bothering to slow down or yield. By the way, having people go a "block" down to the lights at the intersection of Mt. Zion, Milwaukee and Wright Road has people crossing more lanes of traffic as well as two business entrances.

As much as I disagree with this during this time. It is much better than a lame bike tunnel. I mean those people would have to go a block out of there way when they are exercising. But the bike tunnel is state money, and I guess the city council thinks that we don't pay state taxes so its not a waste of our money! Its a waste of someone elses money.

I think that we need to bring/fix things that keep Janesville looking like a great place to raise families, bring new businesses, etc! Positive thoughts for Janesville!!!

Bulldozer,check.
For the love of god just start over with this dump.
Give Miller rights to sell only their products with a 1 million dollar contract and their name on the rink.

I am so sick and tired of hearing all the negativity. I swear if the city was going to cut property taxes some people would still have negative comments. Can't please everyone.
Just get over it people!

It'll go the better part of half a million by the time they're done, and then they'll need a pool (for athlete rehab, of course!). That's a lot of beer!
How many times do we have endure such underhanded, incompetent planning, and apparently buy it hook, line and sinker! This thing will turn into a money sink, and I don't want to pay more property taxes to support such nonsense!
The economy hasn't bottomed out yet, and certainly hasn't begun any sort of sustainable recovery. It's NOT the time to be WASTING OUR TAX DOLLARS ON FRIVOLOUS PROJECTS, even if they do involve this country's favorite sport, "spectator-ship," along with $5 beers!

befair: Even when there is already a vote scheduled, and adding a referendum to the ballot would cost a lot less, the council members are hesitant to do it...I asked them over and over to put the bike tunnel on a referendum during last years elections. The response I got was always something along the lines: "We were elected to represent the city and follow our visions..." Basically, what they're saying is somewhere along the lines of: you don't know what's good for you and we do, and, you were idiotic enough to continue to vote us in, so here you go...

ja67

When has anything ever cost less Good God!

All I will Say is TOLD YOU SO !!! It isn't done it will be even Higher!!!!!!

I think it is a very good idea to spend the money on fixing it up. This community still needs a place for kids to go and stay out of trouble,that is what people should be thinking about. Selling beer there is good to, maybe more people will go watch the games now! It will be money well spent, the ice arena is used by many people, it would only be a waste if no one used the facilities.

If Rockford already has a hockey, why not just buy a bus and have all the Janesville hockey fans ride the bus to see the games. There can not be more than a bus load of hockey fans in this town anyway. I think it is time to say NO to this idea of dumping all this money in the ice rink.

It's just an estimate of $350,000 by an architect. He could be wrong, and the cost would less. Ever think of that?

Indoor/Outdoor Waterpark and Convention Center!!!
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Yea.....that's what we need.

what else is there to spend money on, the snow plows are terrible, the parks are falling apart, the city is falling apart, so is there anywhere else we can put the money if we dont invest in the ice arena? But the citizens of janesville need to realize something, you cannot compare the snappers or the brewers or bucks, to this hockey team, THIS HOCKEY TEAM IS NOT A PRO TEAM, NOT EVEN A SEMI PRO TEAM. It is a developmental team to HELP high school kids to transition into College hockey. Lets be clear on that. Any questions look at there website. All your going to watch is high school hockey if the counsil passes the idea, enjoy the games.

Lets see City Council wants to bring a junior a hockey team here. And we the taxpayers pay the bill. Anybody been to Beloit the last few years and seen the Snappers? Nobody in the stands. No one wants their taxes to go up for second rate hockey. And folks $7-$10 jobs will not pay for an Ice Rink. It took Kenosha close to twenty years to recover. You have about a year before this whole GM thing causes Janesville to fall apart. So wake up city council and spend our money to improve Janeville because soon there will be no money to spend at all.

say NO to everything above 2 hundred grand. that was what was bargained for. thats the rub of these CAPS. it isn't a cap, it is a dream for the taxpayers, the reality comes later once the taxpayers are conned with the lower price. bait and switch plain and simple.now we see where the CITY COUNCIL'S onions are located!

deborah21154 - Please. Your reasoning is faulty. Noone is "trapped here." Just like anything else, if these people's homes are not selling, they need to lower the price. Everything has a selling price. Do you think by not having amenities like the ice area, and other such facilities with which to give residents something worthwile to do here and thus a reason to live here, people are going to be able to sell their homes easier? Additionally, how many of these "trapped" people overbought in the first place? This is a topic for another discussion however.

Long Time Gone - the landfill doen't operate in the black - look at all the loans and notes that they take for opening and closing landfill sections, equipment, etc. They tell us that the contracts (130K tons of other peoples trash) pays for our residential garbage pick up, yet in the Park Place News (March 09) It states that it costs 13.13 per year for services per household. We charge haulers around 20 bucks a ton to bring in garbage from outside our communtity - but the eventual cost of clean up, will cost our children billions. No public service pays for itself.

Looking at the cost, and then adding an extra $150,000 for overruns and how much the new arena will bring in it will take about 20 years to return your investment. However, it will create some jobs, so if the building will last that long, it seems like a good idea.

thetruth -- "Honestly, if you do not like paying for all these things, why do you live here? You can move to a location where taxes are much lower."

Have you noticed how many homes are up for sale here? How many of them are selling? People are trapped here because they can't unload homes they own here.

First: Why are taxpayers required to finish out the space to WHP's specifications? In any other case, when a company leases a building, they are responsible to finish out the space at their own expense. Taxpayers should be paying to upgrade the ice making equipment - whether or not WHP is in there, since those improvements will benefit the facility, owned by taxpayers, and the freon being released to the environment, will likely result in fines from the EPA.

Second: Whose estimate is 350K for repairs? Kind of like the estimate for the bathrooms at the Youth sports Complex - outside estimates were received for around 100K, but the City's estimate, and ultimately the cost to the taxpayer, more like 350K.

sysco_kid : outstanding point. thanks for the input. i'll go with ya to the rockford games hahaha.

I think why not upgrade the Ice Arena. I have played hockey there for 19 years and being employeed there for 3 years, it needs an upgrade, dont think about the hockey team coming in think about it as a usual upgrade to a senior center or park or something like that, lets really think about it. it is a great marketing tool to bring people back to janesville, and everyone could agree, thats what we need.

I wonder who the architect is? I think they would rather design a new facility instead of polishing up a terd. Why not commission a a local architecture firm, like Angus Young to keep the $$$ local. Creating Jobs is always good!

Look at the city - any city - budget. The landfill is the only item that operates in the black.
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If only my ole hometown would be more agressive at taking ownership - with liability indemnification - of the GM plant.
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Tear it down - there's gold in them recycled bricks, enough to fund building a new ice arena.
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Then market the vacate land at GM. Look here at Kenosha - redevelop, sooner the better.

my point is that this on top of the Tallman house, not to mention the property tax loss of GM, this seems like horrible timing.

befair - Realistically looking at this, $350K project in a city of over 60,000, this is nowhere near a referendum. I would think $2-$3 Million would be the lowend of a project being put to a referendum.

billnewbie - So what if the city looses money on this ice area. It is not setup as a money-maker, it is setup as a leisure facility. How much money do the parks, senior center, landfill, police (I could go on and on) make for the city but yet our tax dollars go to support them as well? We need these types of facilities/services to attract people to this city. Honestly, if you do not like paying for all these things, why do you live here? You can move to a location where taxes are much lower.

At what point does something become costly and controversial enough to indicate a need for a referendum?

It seems lately that we have unlimited wants and needs while funds become more limited all the time. We'd better find a way to establish some priorities and figure out how we're going to pay for them.

The city stands to make a whole $20,000 a year for our $350,000 now and another $650,000 later to fix this ice arena? That’s only 17 ½ years for the first sum and an additional 32 ½ years for the second for a total of 50 years, should this hockey league last that long. What a bargain!
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Only Government agencies and bureaucrats would consider that a good investment. Maybe the city should sell personal seat licenses for this venue and require city employees to buy one as a condition of employment since the property tax payers will be required to pay for this as a condition of ownership.

Who uses memos now? This is 2009. Companies announce things all the time with emails. Come out from under the rock.

First, Jack Messer was never accurate with estimates. He always lowballed them. Second, since when does a professional manager provide this type of information via email? Use your wonderful writing ability (sarcasm) and write a memo. Third, I will never understand why money is being thrown at this project; aside from the perception that it is the new manager's pet project and perhaps legacy.

suprise!! It's going to cost more!! We knew this would happen, and it will suck our wallets dry and then some! Give it up now before it is totally out of control!!

Sell beer to the contractors hired to work at the ice arena to help offset the cost of the project.

ridiculous. I guess we have a blank checkbook, does anyone ever try to reconcile it?