Bill- lets see if we can clarify.
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What proof do you have that there is a god?
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Once you have provided your proof - what is your evidence that the proof you provided is attributable to your particular belief system as opposed to all of the others?
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The problem we have is that we look at the world and ask why? And we see the answers, we talk about them with each other, sometimes we are right and sometimes wrong. We use logic and reason to figure things out and the overwelming evidence points to evolution and natural selection as the source of life on this planet and that religion is simply a byproduct of the social interaction that resulted from the evolution of the cerebral cortex.

Doctor billnewbie, it is the BELIEF in god that's the problem. That's what we are criticizing. And your previous post unwittingly reveals that belief and non-belief are subjective and that therefore god is man-made.

God is supposed to be involved in everything yet there is no evidence of him at all. During the early era of theism belief in god was based in "clear-cut evidence" -actually delusions and lies which were thought to be reality.

As human intellect matured, species-wide, increasingly elaborate explanations as to how god manifests himself and how god does not manifest himself were contrived to foster and encourage belief. Those who nourished this after-market religiosity became known as clergy and theologians.

They contrived different causes for human suffering and different interpretations for scripture. They also wrote new scripture and doctrine. Your current explanation for god (which includes his non-involvement where he should be involved) is state of the art theology. Theology has lagged behind the evolution of the human intellect but has nonetheless progressed to the point where it virtually states that god does not exist.

This truth is tugging at your consciousnesses and has driven you into the hellish world of psychoanalysis.

Bill- again I must tell you - I don't have abias against god - I just do not agree with your hypothesis that he exists.
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What you see as cynicism is really just me pointing out to you that there is no valid reason to believe in god. Just like if I told you there was a teapot just between venus and the sun and its just far enough out that our telescopes can't detect it. Now would you believe me?
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If you did not would I be justified in saying you really want to believe, its just your armor of cyniacism that you are throwing up to protect yourself?
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Other examples of the need for the person making the claim to provide the evidence is the Invisable Pink Unicorn. I could tell you that there was an IPU and it created the world. When you say prove it I could say to you dissprove it - and you would be unable to do so, because its invisable. Would you be anrgy with the IPU? Would you be resisting the acceptance of IPU? I submit that you would not be.

I get that you don't want to believe in God. Your hostility to Him makes that evident. But I don’t really accept that you don’t believe there is no God. Because while I cannot prove He exists, neither can anyone prove he does not. That’s why you and so many others engage in critical attacks of God and His followers in spite of your denials of doing so. So the possibility that He exists cannot be totally removed from your consciousness which is why you need the cynicism you display. It’s a self-defense mechanism designed to prevent you from a change of heart. You have an emotional need to assure yourself that you are right about God. Your own words prove this.
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The “tangible” evidence you demand is subject to the beholder’s opinion, and it is evident to me that the “tangible” evidence I accept may never be acceptable to you, but that does not mean there is no evidence, only that the evidence that exists does not satisfy you. And considering your obvious bias against God, that is not surprising.

And, again, when we use the word "god" we are really saying: "...if god existed (which he does not)...." - Gazzettefan.
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Bill we are not being critical of god - we are saying he doesn't exist. You have offered no tangible evidence, even simply through logic you have managed to prove that a loving, all powerfull all knowing god does not exist.
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The holocaust wasa result of free will, which we stole from god when Eve ate the apple. Our fault. Then all the rest of the evil in the world is because god created an environment that is dangerous. Tell that to the children that dies of starvation every day, or thier mothers and point out to them that god loves them. Then we ask why doesn't he intervene, this loving god loves us right? Here is where things get wierd:.
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There is a coming battle with satan, who tricked us into eating from the tree of knowledge and getting free will.
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God can't intervene because then we would not have free will any longer, and its such a precious gift.
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He is still angry - thats why we are still being punished.
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He will be back real soon and then he will intervene, any day now - of course the bible says that Jesus told the poeple that he was speaking to that they would not die on earth before his return, then they started to die, then of course they all died, and a couple of thousand years passed.

So, is the complaint that the universe, God’s creation, is hazardous? That since there is death, God is unjust? It’s true, whether we live one minute past conception or we live 120 years, the end result is we die, each and every one of us by any number of means that range from cruel to impersonal, from catastrophic to unremarkable. But why should that concern an atheistic naturalist. It’s not like the naturalist is trying to pick a God. He has one. Nature is his God. Nature is what brought forth life according to the naturalist, and death too. The only difference is that the theist credits God with the existence of nature while the atheistic naturalist views nature as all there is. So to die, even to the naturalist, by what ever means, is natural. Yet if God created nature, then death becomes an evil act? Do they question why nature has made them the way they are? Of course not. Then why do they question God’s means and motives? If He made us, why wouldn’t he have the authority to make us the way He sees fit? Obviously He does.
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Still, I can’t help but wonder why the atheist cares what attributes or motivations he thinks God has? If life is cruel, an atheist can’t really lay the blame at the feet of God since to the atheist there is no God and still life is cruel. And if what the theists believe of their God is something the atheist can’t accept, so what, if there is no God. It’s useless to blame theology for the ills of the world because, if there is no God, theology and theists are creations of a cruel nature and therefore that nature is still to blame for all the evils of the world, besides the fact that so much evil exists outside of theism. But, if the atheists are really anti-theists, as I’ve contended time and time again, then the purpose of their hostility to God and those who believe in Him becomes clear. And what they can’t, or don’t want to accept, is that all evil in the world can only be blamed on humanity, themselves included, and that God has authority to judge all of us for the evil that we do.

He's avoided that issue a long time ago. Maybe he's got something to offer now.

Bill -You contend that the holocaust and the inquisition and I assume all the various other atrocities are a result of free will. How about the flood, or drought or huricanes or disease, or the lack of clean water that some children die as a result of every day. More punishment from god or a result of our free will?

Bill - Part 2 retort. You claim government and conscience as proof that god is not cruel. Do you have any evidence that this sociological phenomenon are artibutable to god?
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You state that thank god for government otherwise us self-gods would be out of control. I am an athiest, and I am responsible for my actions. I am a social, well adjusted being that is capable of forming relationships as solid as you have in your life, I am not constantly resisting the urge to kill and steal just because I don't believe in god. I need no fear of holy retribution to make me a productive member of society.
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Tellling my that the quotes in the bible where god is clearly destroying children in awefull ways that I just can't undetrstand and should not try to, that just doesn't fly, again if I gutting a kid in front you and explained that my long term plan was complex, come on. You can do better - I am rooting for you.

This thing about god being incomprehehsible is merely an unwitting way for believers to admit that they don't know what the heck they're talking about.

razor....., I resent the implication.

Bill - welcome back - Part 3 retort:
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Taking it from the bottom of part three up - No I am not outraged at god not striking down the craigslist killer, I don't believe that god exists, as far as judgement being clouded by what I want to believe it would be great, as I have said if there was an afterlife, as it stand you offer no evidence to support your conclusions.
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As far as the job story goes, the version you read in the bible is clearly the result of two authors. Either way god clearly allows the termination of Job's kids, amongst other atrocities, then replaces them with new kids. Come on dude, you can say its the mystery of god all you want and that you cant understand him but if I killed your kid and gave you another one to replace it, you would say I was pretty cold hearted at the very least.

Part 3:
So why does God take what looks like innocent people and allows them to be hurt or killed such as with Job’s children? Again, it has to do with sovereignty. If God has a purpose for what seems like a senseless death, the senselessness is only in our perception, or lack of perception. We are limited in what we know by what we see, hear, feel, taste and touch. A good illustration of that is the “Craigslist Killer” which is currently in the news. No one who knew this man had any suspicions that he is the cold blooded killer that he actually is. If God had stricken him down 2 months ago, people like Gazettefan and Prounion would protest that this is yet more evidence of the evil of God. But now that we know the real character of this man, perhaps Gazettefan and Prounion are outraged that God didn’t strike him dead 2 months ago. Humans are in no position to judge God as we do not and cannot have all the pertinent facts, and very often our judgment is clouded by what we want to believe.

Part 2:
Concerning God’s various acts of supposed cruelty, His commanding that people be put to death, even His condemning to hell any who displease Him, there is no denying, or need to deny that these things have or will happen. The contention is that a loving God would not do such things. But again all the writer of such a contention is claiming is that “I wouldn’t do that if I were God”. Atheists (anti-theists) have zeroed in on one particular aspect of God (Love) because this is the one divine aspect that nearly everyone agrees on and it is one they think that they can exploit. And while love is a very important aspect of God, it is not his only one, and as such, cannot be the only one that matters or even the one that matters most. Ignoring the other aspects of God is the deception in trying to hold God accountable for His actions.
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So what could possibly justify these “terrible” divine or divinely directed actions? Again, if one believes that there is no God, this question is moot, but if one accepts, even if just for the sake of argument, that God does exist, then one also must accept that He created us and that as Creator, He has total authority over us, that He is sovereign. As part of human nature, God endowed us with free will, but he also gave us law which he “wrote on our hearts” (our conscience) and instituted within government which He authorized with governmental sovereignty, that is the authority to govern, and therefore impose and enforce the law on us whether we agree or not, which is similar to His own sovereignty though on a smaller scope. So, since He created us, has sovereignty over us, has given His law to us so that we know how to behave, He therefore has the authority to judge us and the authority to condemn us according to another of His aspects, Justice.
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It has been well established that humanity, when it rebels against God, does so on the grounds that we reject His sovereignty. As Americans particularly, we relate well to the revulsion we all seem to have by our shared nature to authority. This is the main attraction that atheism (anti-theism) holds. If there is no God, there is no one to answer to, no judgment to face. We each become our own gods, determining for ourselves what is right, judging our own motivations without regard to any deity outside ourselves, except of course (thank God) for government which is necessary to restrain the other humanistic gods from acting without regard to us. As Satan said to Eve in Genesis when he urged her to disobey God by eating the forbidden fruit, “in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods”, this choice to be as gods is appealing to our character. And it is what leads us to do great evil. But it is a choice we can, but do not have to make, yet we all at one time or another do make that choice to some degree or another. That is why the bible says that our condemnation is just.

So the Holocaust and the Inquisition are held up as proof that there is no God. What I see in all these comments below is a common thread, a declaration by the persons who make these kinds of statements that this is not how they think God should behave, as if saying “If I were God I wouldn’t allow that”. Of course the whole argument is moot if one contends that there is no God because then there is only humanity to which we can credit all the evil that is or ever was in the world, which is not the contention here of those who make these arguments. The argument that “religiosity” is the root of all evil is also nonsensical in that there is plenty of evil in the world that is not related to “religiosity”. Then there is the contradictory argument that “religiosity” tries to force its morality on humanity, a contradiction they seem oblivious to, as if making whatever charge may work is an acceptable practice even if they do contradict (throw it up against the wall and see what sticks), as atheists know that they need not prove anything, that their goal isn’t to build, but to destroy.
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So what is it with God? Why does He allow evil to exist? We’ve all heard of free will as it exists in each of us and its existence is therefore undeniable. Therefore, to have free will means that we all must have the freedom to behave very badly, for if there were any divine limits set on free will, then in fact free will would not exist. Yet God does provide some deterrence to evil. He has established government and he has endowed each of us with a conscience. These 2 devices work remarkably well in restraining the tendency for great evil in most of us. But they do not stop the worst of us, especially when the worst of us gain control of government as the Holocaust and the Inquisition illustrate. So, whether one is a theist or an atheist, the blame for these exercises in evil can only be blamed on the humans who perpetrated them, and the inaction of the humans who could have acted and chose not to.
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So why would God create such human beings with such capacity for evil? Apparently, because these human beings also have a great capacity for good which their free will also enables. If God had made us as automatons, to act only in pre-programmed ways, then what ever we do would have little meaning, particularly on a spiritual level. As an example of that, consider the relationship between a husband and a wife. Their greatest joy in such a marriage occurs when each gives oneself totally to the other, a voluntary subjugation of self for the wellbeing of the beloved, and act of free will. If instead, that husband imprisons his wife, thereby assuring himself of her exclusively and therefore precluding any possibility of infidelity, he may accomplish a similar effect as her free will choice would, but that effect would be hollow, without meaning. His wife must be free to chose or reject fidelity for her fidelity to have any meaning. So it is between God and humanity.

Yet again I apologize for the repetition but the following three posts have significance here too.

JackSprack, you're off to a good start, with the sarcasm

;~)

That being said,thanks for all the shakesperian gfan.

razor...., maybe someday you'll be able to express yourself in your own words.

That sums those knuckleheads nicely, ncpanfan.

All those clergy are as phony as three dollar bills, whether they know they are lying or whether they actually believe the baloney.

No can't say that I have. In fact once I was told by a fellow church member that because I didn't show up on that Sunday that they prayed something bad would happen to me for missing church!! I said gee really? I went to another church yesterday with my cousin. That was the last time I ever went to that church.

ncpanfan, excellent points.

Do you know of any clergy person who's said the same thing?

Gazette: Trust me when I say just going to church doesn't mean going to heaven. In my opinion there are alot of regular church goers who only go to be seen and there are alot of people out there who have never set foot in a church who will have a better shot at heaven because they lived their lives trying to do good things and making tough decisions to do the right thing instead of the easy thing, etc...

Basically I guess I am saying that if you say hey look I go to church every week but you are saying and doing it for the wrong reasons, well that isn't what church should be about.

billnewbie's point was that those monkeys better get their keisters in church if they want to go to heaven.

Bill - was your point that god designed them in an intelligent manner to be canibals?

I'll bet your hair and your inspiration would have risen up even higher if you had seen the Bonobos engage in the cannibalism they are known for as well.

Prounion, what you wrote about evolution, family, etc, reminded me of watching a mother bonobo with her infant at the Milwaukee Zoo. Their human-like interactions, gestures and expressions made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Watching bonobos is a truly inspirational experience for any student of evolution.

Bill - you still seem to be avoiding my questions. I have four unanswered direct questions I was hoping you could answer? Or really any christian out there - no need to make Bill carry the entire load here!

Bill - do tell - who put that there and why? And do you have any observable data to support your conclusion?
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To answer your first few questions my cerebral cortex allows me to think abstractly to think about things like life after death, also to think of things like the wind must be because giants exhale byond the mountain, or because the sun warms air and it rises and weather systems result.
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The fact that relgion or god sprouting up all over the world is a result of the evolution of the cerebral cortex. Actually it supports my views more than yours. If there was truelly only one true god that was making sure that all of humanity believed in a god - one would expect the religions to be uniform, they are not, some don't even include an afterlife.
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Selflessness and altruism in nature is largely an illusion. Individuals may seem to be sacrificing themselves, really they are acting in the best way to pass on thier genes, not the copies within themselves, but the identical copies within the individuals they saved. Think of who is around an individual typically - family.
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The guilt you think is a result of the hand of god is actually the result of the evolution. As are morals. Its a code of behavior that is not imposed by some religious view, but instead as you point out, we all tend to have that. It is a trait that has evolved.

Prounion, what is it within you that leads you to want to believe that you can live on after death? Isn't it remarkable that nearly every culture that ever existed has also believed that as well? Look within yourself. What do you find? A struggle within you between a part of you that is self-centered and a part of you that insists very often that you act counter to self-interest, even at the risk of your life, which if it is finite, is a lot to ask indeed. And what is the purpose of a part of our very being that seems willing to sacrifice our existence from an evolutionary point of view? There can be none as existence is all there is according to that theory and that other self-centered part of us demands that we protect that life at all costs. Yet when another human's safety is threatened, our selfless side calls us to action, and if we fail to heed it's call, we are haunted by guilt or overcome with an urge to rationalize why we couldn't really do anything. What is it that drives us to risk our lives and shames us when we don't? I know what I think it is and who put it there and why.

I don't really see why some would think that my continuing references to cynical responses are my "complaints" of personal attacks. Such is not the case. Besides, I take personal attacks rather well. In fact, some who have tried it have been quite frustrated with the results.
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The cynicism continues unchecked and seems to have actually increased. My efforts to highlight that cynicism for what it is may seem like a diversionary tactic to the cynics, but since that cynicism is itself a diversionary tactic, that charge seems rather hollow.

Bill - I am certainly rooting for you! Logic would dictate that if I am of the understanding that I will simply cease to exist upon death and you are claiming there is a way that my essense could live on, I would rather believe the latter. So yes of course I am rooting for you, everyone on here is!

billnewbie, re: your reference to my post on the 23rd: You benefited from the law of averages on that one.

And your wacky tangent shows a little humor too; let's hope that's not a matter of the law of averages too.

I'd say Prounion is rooting for you to actually answer his questions, instead of the now familiar diversion tactic of avoiding difficult questions by reframing them as personal attacks, Billnewbie.

Does this mean that my assumption was right, that you really aren't rooting for me after all?

Bill says"On April 11th I responded to a particularly cynical post of yours informing you of the spiritual war, a rebellion in which you have been drafted. Other than joining in the mocking of the existence of Satan, you’ve had little to say other than a subject change, that God is not good with rapid fire scripture misquotes feed to you from your favorite biblical cynic website."
This is my point Bill - why? Why would an all powerfull god have a war with his creations? Why would a perfect being have something left undone on his task list - namely killing or torturing satan?

Bill this is your statement from the 9th that led to my asking about santa:
"Because there’s no absolute proof that He doesn’t exist either. So no matter how you choose, your choice will be based on faith. My advise is to carefully consider your options and choose well."
Just like there is not proof that santa doesn't exist, the flying spaggetti monster, the invisable pink unicorn or russel's teapot.

Bill here is one of my posts from April 11th that you mentioned, notice that the source is not evilbible.com, allthough if you would like to pick one of those then repost what the bible actually states, that would be great. You will of course find that evilbible quotes directly from your bible.

In the passage in question (1 Samuel 16:14-15), God removed His Spirit from the disobedient Saul. This opened the door for an evil spirit to come and torment Saul. Though in this passage, it is only the servants of Saul that said the evil spirit was from the Lord, in other passages (1 Samuel 18:10; 1 Samuel 19:9), the text states that the evil spirit came from the Lord.
This is from learnthebible.org, they go on to say the same thing Drtalk says - the spirit that the lord unleashed did evil, not the lord - the lord just allows it to happen. Then explains that if I just obey and submit that it will be all good. Why does god always seem to have a gun at our heads? Again I ask - this is the entity you spend your time and faith on?

Hi Bill. First off - the april 17 discussion: OK so god is all powerful, all knowing, and also exists outside of time. That still does not explain why something that is perfect and always has been would need to create - or want to create anything. Towards that point are the various failed experiments (some say dinosaurs) also the need to flood the planet, killing god only knows how many children, and his desire to be loved, his fear or hatred of other gods, all this leads to a non-perfect, non-complete entity does it not?

Prounion, on April 17th I challenged the contentions you copied from Chad Docterman’s essay in which you had expressed admiration and agreement. You have yet to respond at all to those challenges.
On April 11th I responded to a particularly cynical post of yours informing you of the spiritual war, a rebellion in which you have been drafted. Other than joining in the mocking of the existence of Satan, you’ve had little to say other than a subject change, that God is not good with rapid fire scripture misquotes feed to you from your favorite biblical cynic website.
On April 9th I wrote to explain to you that there is evidence for the existence of God, and you responded by asking for absolute proof that there is no Santa Claus.
In light of all that, I hope you’ll forgive me if I have no confidence that you really seek answers to serious questions. If you really want that cynical wall busted down, that is something you must do for yourself since you erected it. I hope one day you can.

Bill - if I am not mistaken I believe you were making a joke! Not bad. Anyways - seriously I am rooting for you to come back with a logical answer other than I am blinded by something. Maybe if I have put a wall around myself ( I haven't, trust me) you could bust through it with some reasonable logical answer/arguements as to why I should believe that god exists?

Religous leaders and churches need to go back to just teaching about God, Jesus, Moses, etc...

Trust those attending to make their own judgement about the political issues.

I attend church to learn about the stories in the bible not to be asked to sign petitions, read pamphlets about abortion, gay marriage, etc...

Teach me religion and trust me to make my own political decisions.

Oh, and yes, with leaders like Limbaugh and Hannity, the religious right has little chance of success in 2009 and beyond.

The comment posted below on Apr 23, 2009 at 11:54 a.m.

billnewbie, let's see a birth certificate.

And, what are you talking about?!

I see that Gazettefan has launched a brief excursion into the undiscovered country. If he re-reads some of my posts with his cynicism under control he may discover yet more things that I am right about. (Fat chance I know, but hope does spring eternal)

Prounion, are you really rooting for me? I realize that your assessment of my intelligence has no doubt been influenced by some of your comrades hereon, but even a wishful thinker like you can't deny the proof that exists that I wasn't born yesterday.

OK, but be careful, ncpanfan, sometimes I get a little nostalgic.

By the way it sure was nice to venture off the sidewalk today knowing you weren't gonna run me over. LOL

Gazette: I don't know about others but I am one believer who has a very big sense of humor. I think humor is something we all need a dose of daily to make it through!! :)So please don't think if (and I know that is a very big IF) you were ever to get swayed to the other side that it would be humorless. How awful that would be...

It was VERY funny...Definitely made me look twice. Man, Billnewbie...loosen up, you won't go to hell for it:)

It was funny, though.

Noted, Billnewbie and Gazettefan. Where the discussion was moving, that one was too hard to resist. My apologies to site staff.

Billnew: "Have the cynics' feeble convictions been adequately bolstered? That, no doubt, is an ongoing and endless operation."
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Bill - I keep asking you to shake up my convictions by answering my questions or explaining the bible to me, all I get is that I am a cynic, just need some logic thrown in there Bill - I am rooting for you!

foolonthehill, billnewbie's right (for once), don't imitate staff.

Also, importantly, do we need any more proof that to be swayed toward billnewbie's side of the big issue here would be to enter a world of humorlessness?!

Your comment wasn't removed by Satan, just your resistance to wishful thinking.
(Be careful about imitating that staff notice, I’ve seen users removed for that in the past)

So, If I start smoking marijuana I won't be able to concentrate? That explains a few things. I suspect the same is true for boozers as well.

Look at all the cynicism on display. How impressive! I didn't expect to be so thoroughly vindicated. Have the cynics' feeble convictions been adequately bolstered? That, no doubt, is an ongoing and endless operation.

thats funny stuff fool;)

gazette: :) What a relief!! I shall venture out now with one less worry on my mind, but what do I do with the others? LOL

I am certain that Fool on the hill had posted proof that the god of the bible exists and loves us. Then, as usual, satan intervened.

(This comment was removed by Satan.)

I got enough trouble with the boooooooze.

i need to get gfan drivin around high on mother natures finest...then youll want a tunnel:)

See...Gazettefan stopped running people over years ago...and without a bike tunnel!!! Told you we didn't need one...

Don't worry, ncpanfan, I stopped beating people up and running them over years ago.

Look - you are correct - lets get back to the article. Here is how it should work. We as christians see through satan's scam on the human race. We understand that we are engaged in a holy war with satan. Athiests - you do not agree because satan has fooled you. Those we are crusading against - AlQuada - Iraq - the Middle East - also on the wrong side of this cosmic battle - as a result it should be christians that decide things. Especially critical to god is that we be allowed to outlaw activities that offend god - because that is detrimental to this cosmic battle against satan. Things like homosexuality, forget about gay marriage, abortion, any abuse of any embryo (setting aside the fact that "god" kills more embryos through natural means, I mean through satan, that anyone ever could since most don't develop successfully), also regulating what people watch on tv should be controled by us. It just makes sense - oh and by the way I am on to my tea party to protest government involvement in our lives now that Obama took office.

In response to the question asked in the headline of this article, after reading the posts below, I'm going to have to answer that with a big fat: YES!!!

All of you guys are funny. Thekid3477, that was ROTFL!

Dude?!!! You mean like in dude ranch?!!!

Look folks - god gives satan the ability to do that to show us his glory, so that those of us that take the time to really look, will know him and love him. Would you really rather have it be like in the Old Text - god would have already ripped you apart and demanded that you love him or your children would be next.
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So this way its different, and better, you see his glory when you look past the works of satan's science. Example:
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Your science says that the earth is billions of years old rather then the actual age of 6,000 years. One of the many, many ways satan/science tricks you is by saying certain stars are billions of light years away and the light is just reaching us. Well if god created the universe do you think he would forget to also instal the beams of light in progress from distant galaxies for us to enjoy - again we see his glory.

dude...you reviewed 250 of his previous posts?? get a hobby or start smokin pot. youd forget what yer lookin for after the first two....:)

It's Orwellian double-think. Lack of proof is proof that something exists.

That stupid satan tricks us into believing he doesn't exist crap I heard when I was seven. When I was seven I thought it was dumb.

As far as Mother Theresa is concerned: Does god split hairs too or is that just you?

ARRRGH! We be knowen that the FSM Himself tis the One who be messin with the data. It be sayen so in The Gospel of the Church of the FSM. RAmen

True, Indysgrl, LOL

The nonsense about satan corrupts the education and thinking skills of children!

"You rely on your science but your science has been corrupted by Satan."

I dont' know why, but that statement makes me giggle. C'mon... really?

Dawin1 - clearly Mother Teresa is voicing that she is agnostic and not athiest.
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There is a cosmic battle waging between god and satan. We are acting that out here on earth and what happens here on earth determines the outcome on a cosmic scale in the heavens.
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Many like Mother Teresa are attempting to not take a side, but in doing so they strengthen only satan. Paganism (all other religions), to agnostisism, to aithiesm, to satanism, that is the path to other side of this cosmic battle.
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The devil has always been there with his trickery - and his greatest trick was making you believe he doesn't exist. Now when you profess you athiesim and you "wake" people to reality, you are really just taking souls out of god's army here on earth. In effect, if not in mind, you are doing the devil's work, you are a satanist.
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I have ample proof to support these beliefs both from my own life and empirically.
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You rely on your science but your science has been corrupted by satan.

Bring it - fool on the hill - I will now switch sides since I can't find a christian to spar with me.

Bill - I embrace that religion sprouted up all over the world in all its various forms, also that fossils can be seen all over the world as well - I do not refute either one. I was just wondering what conclusion you might be coming to based on accepting both of those.

"Aside from references to Santa Claus, Abbot and Costello, and a few other mild derisions."

I don't recall the Abbot & Costello reference. Please reread the Santa Claus comments in context. That last one dealt with the abstract concept of proving the existence of a fictional character and how irrelevant such "proof" is in a debate. (That was addressed to atheists, by the way.)

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"You did also say that you think that most Christians would agree with you that the bible as not totally accurate..."

I stand by that. That isn't a refutation of theism, simply an observation based on experience.

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"and that you like to confront people with “all that God nonsense”. "

I have said that to preachers, Jehovah's Witness missionaries, etc. So far, every single response has been positive, followed by engaging congenial discussion. I have even become friends with a few of them. (Many preachers have close atheist friends. If you like, someday I'll explain why that is so.)

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"Then there was the reference to “god neurons” and the parallel drawn between LSD intoxication and religious experience."

Here's a link to an article on the subject by a neurotheologian, with a rational discussion of various theologian's and neuroscientist's views of the science and its impact on theology:

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/neurolog...

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"Then there was the statement that you made claiming “that reason played no part whatsoever in leading the believer to where they are today”."

Find one PhD in Theology to refute that assertion (as made in context) and I'll concede the point.

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"So yes, I would say you have attempted to refute what I believe from the body of opinion you have expressed. (I finally stopped after reviewing about 250 of your posts in the archive)."

How flattering!

Bill, if you still feel any of those statements has any relevance to your own personal religious beliefs, then your concept of "faith" is far less developed than I could have imagined. None of the above is derisive and none is a refutation of your beliefs. So far, I have refrained from writing anything remotely resembling a refutation of religious dogma. Would you like to me to start doing so now, just to clarify the distinction?

Mother Theresa didn't see any evidence of a god which makes her an atheist. So, according to the morally superior billnewbie she is a satanist.

No Prounion, what I meant is that some atheists embrace a class of evidence when it suits their purposes by reject it when it does not.

Aside from references to Santa Claus, Abbot and Costello, and a few other mild derisions, what else could be the point of your declared atheism other than refutation of religion in general and Christianity in particular, Fool_on_the_hill? You did also say that you think that most Christians would agree with you that the bible as not totally accurate and that you like to confront people with “all that God nonsense”. Then there was the reference to “god neurons” and the parallel drawn between LSD intoxication and religious experience. Then there was the statement that you made claiming “that reason played no part whatsoever in leading the believer to where they are today”. So yes, I would say you have attempted to refute what I believe from the body of opinion you have expressed. (I finally stopped after reviewing about 250 of your posts in the archive).

Bill could you clarify your middle paragraph of your last post? Are you saying that because diety worship in some way shape or form has been seen to develop, presumably independently all over the anchient world that it is proof that there must be some sort of diety or dieties? And that must be true because fossils have been found all over the world and are evidence that animals were living/evolving there in the past?

billnewbie, if all or almost all human groups have some sort of religiosity, the fact that there is almost a different religion for each group means that religion and god are man-made and culture bound -like your christianity is culture bound. This is not only proof that god doesn't exist, it is proof that christianity in no more valid than any other religious belief system.

Religion started with primitive groups and has lost its status with the on-going democratization of the world. Democracy and clear thinking dissipate religiosity. The problem now is that the fanatics have weapons (planes to fly into buildings etc.) or will have catastrophic nuclear weapons. It would again be your kind that perpetrates the next holocaust.

Bill, have I ever attempted to refute either your understanding of or your practice of Christianity?

Fool_on_the_hill, can you actually cite an example of an atheistic aboriginal culture? If not, then why do you think that one may exist? In fact every aboriginal culture has a spiritual element of some kind or another. If one were discovered without it, that would be an aberration.
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Do you think that spiritual aboriginal cultures may be evidence of God due to their isolated yet similar developments? Why would a single non-spiritual aboriginal culture be evidence of atheism? I’m sure that if the preponderance of aboriginal cultures had been found to be atheistic, atheist proponents would trumpet these findings as proof that God is man made. But instead they would rather believe that spiritual aboriginals are ignorant as opposed to their “enlightenment”, just as they claim that to be Christian is ignorant, too.
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It’s been claimed by evolutionists that human reason has evolved along with a sense of morality. It’s also been claimed that humans invented religion. Many ancient cultures existed, totally isolated from one another. Yet they all developed some form of religion. Yes, there are marked differences in the various religions but there are also some profound similarities. Evolutionists and atheists claim that the fossils they find on opposite sides of the world bear similarities and that those similarities are proof of evolution. Yet they balk at the idea that religion found all over the world bearing remarkable similarities is proof of anything. Isn’t that an interesting paradox?
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The philosophies of Peter Gilmore are not his own any more than the theologies of the Pope are his own. Gilmore’s philosophies are ancient and are widely dispersed. Many who advocate them do not reveal their true source and many more do not realize that true source.

Sorry Bill - I thought from your previous post that you wanted to scrutinize my views for validity - I am certainly open to that. I wasn't sure if you were serious about the list/belief thing - did you want me us paragraphs? Also whichever Dawkins book you would like to critically talk about that would be great. I am not sure what you are getting at with the CS Lewis thing? Not just bill - really any christians please feel free to join in the examination of my "beliefs." Please also feel free to make fun of them - I won't be offended!

I'm glad to see that you have characterized your list as beliefs.
I'm surprised that you didn't reference Dawkins other much more popular and cynical work, "The God Delusion". I have an alternate author to suggest from another Oxford professor of some note, C.S.Lewis who at one time was also an atheist but who had an epiphany and a powerful testimony. I suggest "Mere Christianity" which was written for skeptics by a former skeptic.

Bill, you have neither expanded on nor explained your logic. You have only repeated your previous statements.

To paraphrase your assertion as I understand it: Atheist epistemology stems from Christian theology and the philosophies of Peter Gilmore. If so, then please explain how this would be relevant to the atheism of an undiscovered aboriginal culture.

Just so we are on the same page with our understanding of facts: The Gilmore interview is evidence only of Gilmore's statements; Christian theology is the study of Christian history, doctrine and scripture; atheists are interested only in rational arguments and; dogma is not considered evidence in making a rational argument.

There is no emotion or fear on this side of our discussion. What you think you perceive is most likely what psychologists call "projecting". My only interest here is to clear up what appear to be misconceptions about atheism on your part and to help you better understand the likely cause of those misconceptions.

Matt - I guess my point is - can't we look a little deeper into our surroundings?

Bill - First off - I am not upset about the satan influence thing - I am having a great time and am very much enjoying this.
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Per your request - let me outline some of my beliefs:
The earth is very very very old - way older than 6,000 years.
Life evolved over those milenia through natural selection in which certain genes were favored AKA survived to reproduce offspring, which then in turn survived to reproduce based on the phenotype that they exibited.
Eventually this process led to the cerebral cortex, where higher thought can take place, allowing for individuals to plan, think, cranial capacity grew significantly. Culture, tool use, societies became possible - the ideas and concepts fostered by this additional higher functioning brain. Across the globe religion spread as an idea - all sorts of religions to explain the unknown.
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How is that for a start, also if you would like to hit me from quotes from a book - similar to me questioning your bible - try the Selfish Gene by Dawkins. Seems only fair that I should point to a book as you do to say here are my beliefs - scrutinize them.

prounion..God has all the answers to those questions. You just live your life based on what's right vs wrong and just leave the consequences up to God. Simple life.

Prounion, what is the point of asking questions about Christian theology when you don't want to believe that God even exists? You know you already have the answers you like. Why don't you just drop the pretenses and state your opinion plainly without all the subterfuge? Are you apprehensive about having to defend them? You don’t really need to be. Those who would attack you for them would just be trying to protect their own fragile beliefs just as those who attack me are. I’ve stated what I believe fairly clearly. I knew that I would be excoriated for it. But it has little effect on me due to the strength of my convictions.
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I have the strength of my convictions in God that no one here can shake. I can’t be insulted out of them, I can’t be ridiculed out of them, nor can I be cajoled booed or hissed out of what I believe. Many have belittled my intelligence, my emotional stability, my reading ability even my learning ability, calling me stupid and saying that they detest me and why? Because they abhor the message and they have little of substance to counter what it offers, hope. They spend little time espousing their own beliefs (which they insist are facts) and concentrate on attacking the message and the messengers. This is not evidence of free thinking, it is evidence of thought control through intimidation. If they can’t defeat a message they try to silence the messengers.
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Some seem quite vexed that I have equated Satanism with atheism. That provoked an emotional response that may have lead to some misunderstandings. I did not mean to say that atheists are Satanists. I meant to say that satanic principles are the basis of atheism as that interview so clearly shows. Christian theology says that Satanism has been trying to undermine God’s work throughout the ages. Atheists, not surprisingly recoil in disgust at the very suggestion that Satanism is at the root of their beliefs. I’m not surprised at their outrage or especially their cynicism which they need to quell their fears.

Calls - it - I am keeping hope alive here that one of them will engage in a rigorous debate rather than write me off a a cynic or a fledgling satanist. The bonus for me is that if they do prove their arguement - I can live forever in heaven.

I don't know about the religious right imploding, but if you guys don't keep rehashing the same arguments over and over and over and over again when you know you have no chance to change the thinking of the other side then my head WILL implode. Try agnosticism, it works.

good stuff prounion. good stuff.

Matt - thanks for the prayers - but if you could answer some of my questions that might be more effective.

ARRR! Nobody takes t' havin' their shortcomin's pointed out by the likes o' no Capt'n Smartalec!

prounion- I'll pray for you.

For instance Bill -
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The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42 NAB)
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I assume that when this happens I will not have free will to do as I please - instead I will go into the furnace unwillingly.

Bill - on your satanism versus athiesm posts - Your contention is that athiesm is a stepping stone to satanism?

ARRGH! All you scaly-wags are so far off course it be hard to remember the topic we be talkin about. Politics. The Christian faith be born of politics. The nation of the Jews was occupied by the Romans. The Roman leader was a god on earth as proclaimed by their senate. The Jews needed a god on earth to through off the occupation. There be mutiny in the ranks. To keep hope of the nation alive. This god must not die. The Christians be a political force since they be born. They took the throne from the Romans, it be wise to keep them in site. RAmen

OK Bill - looks like we are losing Thekid's soul here, let's clear this up.

How does god eliminating evil eliminate my free will?

At last, the voice of reason!

;~)

thanx dillnewbie. i think i believe less after reading your smoke. and i didnt believe to begin with.

Bill, I am trying, but am not following your train of thought.

Gazettefan: Tribalism and dogmatism thrive in similar states of consciousness. Folks who are essentially dogmatic in their beliefs seem to have the hardest time wrapping their heads around such concepts as atheism and science. That was my implication with regard to religion being a consequence and not causal. The state of one's consciousness is the progenitor. Everything flows from that.

That article you linked denies that atheists worship Satan, Fool_on_the_hill. I claimed that atheism is subverted by satanism. I would expect atheists to condemn that. But there is evidence that my contention is true never the less.

You misunderstood me, Fool_on_the_hill, Gilmore is a credentialed satanist.

Prounion, God is all powerful, but as he endowed us with free will, it would be contradictory to use that power to circumvent that free will, wouldn't you say? That's like saying that if God is all powerful, why can't he make a rock so big that He can't lift it. Nonsense is still nonsense, even for God.

Bill thanks for all the well wishing - but could you answer my questions?

Prounion, I don't dismiss you as a satanist. I dismiss your cynicism. And I contend that your ideas are not new, rather that they are very old indeed. They just seem new to you because you have recently found them. They were new to me some years ago as well. And I don't feel superior to you, in fact I can identify with you and your cynicism. I am trying to tell you that though you may be sincere, I believe that you are sincerely wrong. I don't expect you to have an immediate epiphany, I only hope that someday you will.

gazette: I as a believer do not feel the need to think that anyone who doesn't believe as I do is an enemy. As mentioned before I am friends with a few atheists. :)

However if you were to beat me up or run me over with your car I might consider you my enemy, hee hee....Please don't... :)

Bill - if I could just repeat my question - is god all powerful - could he not just wish satan away? Or is you point if all of us got together with satan that our collective free will would beat him in the war as you descibed in Ephesians 6:12?

I knew that Gazettefan's refusal to accept reading assignments would unwittingly lead him to verify what I wrote.
Or maybe Gazettefan is Peter Gilmore. Just kidding!

Bill - its ok to think in new ways, you don't need to fear ideas that are different from your own. Certainly you ideas can stand up against some scrutiny, or if they can't you can enhance your understanding right? Not everyone that doesn't believe in the bible is a satanist whose ideas should be dismissed.

Great post, foolonthehill.

billnewbie, as do all believers, needs to see rival tribes -enemies. Of course atheists are not a tribe. They are clear thinkers free of sanctioned belief in the supernatural.

Free will, Prounion. You have it, I have it, Satan has it. God endowed us with it. He must feel that it's so important for us to have it that He allows us to use it even against His will.

billnewbie, the citation below should be a clue to you that your god and your satan are the dichotomies of a mental contrivance that encapsulates your internal struggle.

god's/satan's hostility toward children shows itself in milder, though still harmful, form in the believer's practice of damaging the education and the analytical skills of children with abominations like creationism and I.D. The devil indeed.

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"Do not think I have come to send peace on earth: I have not come to send peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

MATTHEW 10:34-37 Bible: New Testament

Bill, you are mistaken. Prounion's explanation is correct.

First, there is no such thing as a "credentialed athiest". That is a preposterous and hilarious concept. Gazettefan likes to kid about there being a "club" because it is such an absurd idea. Here is some information and history on the myth of atheism and satanism:

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths...

Bill, I assure you, unequivocally, there is no such thing as "atheist dogma". Atheism is the logical conclusion for anyone who rejects dogma in all of its varied forms, religious or otherwise.

Ok Bill - How about an answer to this one then - why is there a battle between god and satan? You mentioned that god was all powerful, so whats up with the battle, why doesn't he just wish his enemies away?

Prounion, all you've really done is rephrased your contention that I have been indoctrinated which I have already refuted. I get that you reject what I believe and who I believe in. Explaining why I think that Christianity is correct to someone who cannot accept the existence of God is like explaining algebra to someone who doesn't accept arithmetic.

Fool_on_the_hill, my point is that atheism is subverted by satanism, that satanism is largely, if not entirely the source of atheism. I mentioned a spiritual war. This interview is evidence of that. The bizarre fact that these particular satanists claim to reject that an entity named Satan exists is evidence of its flexible (and disingenuous) approach. Not many will embrace devil worship, but satanism without a Satan (atheism) has a much wider appeal. As I quoted from the bible before in Ephesians 6:12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Compare the satanist's utterings to humanism and remember, satanism has been with us a much longer time than humanism.

Bill - god, jesus, satan, ju ju, invisable pink unicorn, flying spaggetti monster, Russsel's teapot, bear spirit, krom, zues, odin, ra, quetzalcoatl, tlaloc, venus, hercules, bondye, ogoun, shango, bumba, wakan-tanka, wendego, enki, anu, akka, ukko, guan-yu, ao-chin, ect, ect, ect...On and on it goes.
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Satan's in there with the rest of the made up figments, nothing particularly interesting to me there. If you can look past what you think is satan's influence over me for a minute to answer a question though - why this belief system and none of the others? I submit it was because of what you were exposed to as opposed to an evaluation of the facts.

I did read the interview, Billnewbie. Are you saying you agree with Gilmore or is your point that any idiot can claim to be atheist?

You should read the interview Fool_on_the_hill. Gilmore actually says "Satanism begins with atheism".

That was an interview, not one of those questionable wikipedia entries, Darwin1. And the "alleged" satanist has well established credentials. A skeptic would look into such things before comment, a cynic like you wouldn't bother.

Billnewbie: I trust you were only making a point about generalization and don't truly believe that a Satanist is atheist? If the former, then touche'! That was pretty funny.

Excellent example of your sense of superiority and I might add bigotry. One alleged "satanic" person on a wiki makes some comments about atheism and we are all that person: its bigotry. Also, we aren't cynical we are skeptical and skepticism is a good thing. It means you don't just follow irrational ideologies blindly. You just paint it as cynical because it makes it easy for you to dehumanize us with your supposed moral superiority.

Prounion,I say you are closed minded because you use cynicism as your main defense. Those questions you ask are not your own and are based on unsupportable and disingenuous assumptions. You have no real interest in any answers which would be either ignored or ridiculed. And you ignore statements and questions posed to you, such as those I wrote concerning Chad Docterman’s essay that you held up as “logical proof” but that I showed as faulty due to his unsupportable assumptions.
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I can see that you are bothered by the notion that there may be a satanic influence behind atheism. Do quotes such as these look familiar to those that have been written here on GazetteXtra comment boards? Do they bring anyone to mind for you like they do for me?
“My real feeling is that anybody who believes in supernatural entities on some level is insane. Whether they believe in The Devil or God, they are abdicating reason.”
“Since we generally are skeptical atheists, we question all spirituality. We believe that carnality is all that exists and the spiritual dimensions are fictional.”
“So you then have to make a decision that places yourself at the center of your own subjective universe, because of course we can’t have any kind of objective contact with everything that exists. That’s rather arrogant and delusional, people who try to put things that way.”
“Well, see the idea of the “God” comes from the oppressors, and it’s a way of controlling folks, by saying, “I have communication with this authority figure but you can't. I’m special.” That’s where priesthoods come in, but also governmental authorities and parties, let’s say the Communist Party or the Nazi Party at one point.”
“You can’t be praying to a God or blaming a devil, or anyone else, for that matter, for what happens to you. It’s on your own head. That’s a challenge for most people.”
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It may surprise you to know that these quotes are from a Q&A style interview done by a reporter named David Shankbone published on Wikinews on Nov. 5 2007. The subject and the source of the quotes above is a man named Peter Gilmore, the High Priest of the Church of Satan (Anton LaVey’s successor). You can read the interview in its entireity here, http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Satanism:_An...
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Maybe you’ll think I’m a fanatic for saying that I would be shaken to the core to find that my “atheistic” beliefs were actually satanic in origin.

Amazing what that 2% difference in DNA can accomplish, huh?

ARRRGH! I be from the wee Midgit ya know, I'll be asken yee kindly to walk that tharr plank if yee be spoutin the likes of monkeys bein me origins

Yes, when billnewbie, can't respond to rational issues, he starts preaching with condecending sympathy.

He has yet to understand that his need for religion is based in his inability to face what he really is. bill, its OK to be a primate, have a banana and enjoy yourself. And appreciate the fact that not only can we enjoy bananas but that we have the creativity and intelligence to conceive of and and actually bake and enjoy a banana cream pie: not like those other darn monkeys.

Bill seriously - you indicate that we are closed minded but that our voicing our ideas that conflict with yours - basically asking questions - well that is dismissed at us being under the influence of satan.

As far as what I would like to believe - well Bill ask yourself this - why would someone not want to believe in an afterlife - just for the fun of it? I would very much want to believe in heaven, its just that logic and observation just don't give any credible reason to do so.

The problem with billnewbie is that he has replace one sense of superiority with another. Our "problem" is that we think we are superior. Yet, he thinks he is so right that he is constantly telling us our motivations, what we are thinking and what selfish people we are for trying to destroy him. Bill you are the one with superiority problem and you are projecting in onto us. The difference is that we think we are right but you "know" you are right. Your superiority is your conviction ours is our intelligence. Would you like to have a doctor who has conviction or intelligence?

I would love to see billnewbie in a Milgram experiment. It would be shocking.

I could just see billnewbie behind the pulpit.

Geeeeeez, Billy. Just turn the other cheek and be done with it.
And Bill Maher and Rush are entertainers. Don't get your undies in a bunch.

Prounion, God may well give you a long life with many opportunities to reconsider because He has not yet given up on you even though you have apparently given up on Him. We are like molding clay, life is the spinning wheel and God is the potter. The shape we have today may not be the shape we have tomorrow. And the Potter is patient, He can work a lump a long time before he discards it.
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But I advise you to drop the cynicism. Cynicism is like armor over our minds. It keeps out contradicting information without allowing the mind to accurately assess it.
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Do you remember when you wrote that I had been indoctrinated? You assumed that I have always been a Christian and that I have been programmed to be one since I was very young. That suggests that you suffer from the same affliction that so many other so called atheists suffer from, a sense of superiority. You can see that superiority complex on display in many of the posts of other “atheists” below. They assume that “intelligent” people must come to the same conclusions as they do or if not, that is prima facie evidence of some mental or emotional defect or deficit. The possibility that people like me exist that have actually considered, even embraced what they now accept as fact but have, over time come to a different conclusion is hard for them to accept without blaming it on some intellectual or emotional flaw. The fact is that “atheism” (a.k.a. anti-theism) is attractive to those who have this superiority problem. They wish to be the god of their own lives. They detest the very idea of a sovereign God. And they detest those of us who embrace Him. They attempt to destroy the faith of theists for a selfish reason, to prop up their own chosen beliefs, or lack thereof which they deceive themselves into thinking are facts. I’ve said that I wish you a long life with lots of opportunities to change you convictions because I have had that opportunity, have dropped my mistaken convictions and have humbly embraced the Lord God. Keep searching for God and maybe one day you will too.

razor...., now you're being mean!

;~)

razor...., if you think I'm supposed to remember everything you've written, then you're the one with too much attention on this site. You might want to consider the possibility that you're a repressed billnewbie. Learn some manners.

And this country was not started with christian values; it started with democratic values which are antithetical to the totalitarianism of theistic religiosity, as Darwin indicates. By the way, there are no inherent christian values: anything good in christianity came from other disciplines; and all disciplines acquired their virtues from the the inherent good of HUMAN nature.

Prounion is correct. We endeavor here to show that religiosity is an irrational phenomenon whose adherents are self-absorbed narcissists; and who whenever the opportunity allows project their irrationality not only on their own kind but on others as well.

Gazettefan, Darwin and myself are more and more not some sort of fringe group "fighting the system" as you put it, but more and more mainstream. If we are doing anything on this post, with your help, we are showing that the christian views crumble under scrutiny and have no more validity than the earth was created when a spirit seperated heaven from earth and propped it up in the sky with ten pillars.

razorsharp, our country was built on secular values which is why it is a constitutional democracy and not a monarchy. This is why our truths are self-evident. Have you ever read Common Sense by Thomas Paine?

"foolonthehill, what would your question look like if you were to rephrase it?" - Gazattefan.

By that, you mean, "more grammatically correct"? :)

(I posed it as a rhetorical question.)

razor....., can't you read?! You've just made yourself guilty of the very same sub-intelligent nonsense that spews from the brain pan of billnewbie and his ilk. If your religiosity has any merit, let's hear it. Let's hear why you've thrown away your humanity for a malignant fairy tale.

Instead of projecting your own lack of courage onto others, dazzle us with the brilliance of your beliefs. Show us that your beliefs don't shut down the intellect.

All you are revealing here is that believers can't stand the light of day, just like roaches.

Bill - why would god do that to me? I mean obviously I have searched him out - I have discussed the bible here on this board and raised the questions. Why would he make all the physical evidence point towards your religion being nonsense? Then he is going to burn me in hell for not believing what he hides so very well? Why go to all the trouble of making me - knowing I would not buy this made up nonsense - only to burn me alive for eternity? Why are the why questions so difficult for you and your like minded bretheren?

billnewbie, you are presented with serious issues that are worthy of intelligent responses. But all you do is react with low-brow insults and condescending sympathy.

You're like Major Frank Burns on M*A*S*H.

Like I said before, if you people were off in your own little covens then it wouldn't be so bad. But you and your kind claiming the false moral highground of being against the importance of the theory of evolution and the humanity of stem-cell research makes you deserving of the lambasting millions of people heap upon you. Go ahead, feel sorry for yourself. Emulate Christ.

But you must look toward the criminality and immorality of your own kind when it comes to your fire and brimstone and self-exaltation. You must look at these things without writing it off by saying: Well, it really doesn't apply.

It does apply. And one way or another you are part of it.

Darwin1, I realize that cynical laughter is the first choice of defence by many against uncomfortable truths which is something I have been expounding for quite a while so thank you for demonstrating the truth of that so clearly for me.

The truth is that God has already won the war. What we have here and now is a remnant of the rebellion, the equivalent of partisans lead by a leader who knows they have lost the war and are now engaging in skirmishes that have only one purpose, to do as much damage as they can. In these skirmishes, that means to destroy as much faith, and the faithful, as possible for purely vengeful purposes using whatever means are available. And just like a defeated rogue commander, this leader keeps his true purpose hidden from his minions as well as the truth of their defeat. You can read all about it in the bible, and a prediction of its outcome, should you ever develop the curiosity.

Sadly, billnewbie, ALL KNOWING AND POWERFUL BILLNEWBIE KNOWS WHAT MOTIVATES YOU, KNOWS WHAT YOUR FEEBLE MINDS NEED, HIS SELF-RIGHTEOUS CONVICTION THAT IS A DELUSION!!!! HA HA HA HA (Evil Laugh).

Don't worry Prounion, I won't be trying to burn you at the stake. I wish you a long life with plenty of opportunities to reconsider your tragic convictions.

Bill - You can see where your beliefs can lead to burning people as witches. Creepy supernatural stuff. Too bad god isn't strong enough to just win the battle already huh?

I’ve testified to the truth I believe I have found and have told anyone who has an interest where they can find it too. I won’t bother to answer any disingenuous questions since the answers will be condemned without consideration or ignored while yet another is asked. Those who distort scripture do so only for the purpose of destroying the faith of those who believe in God to bolster their own feeble convictions, rather like a drunkard who entices a teetotaler to take a drink, taking pleasure in corrupting the innocent, while finding solace for himself in their corruption. I can see why some who do this would despise people like me. I recognize their immoral motivations and I am impervious to their methods.
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Gazettefan had actually found a nugget of truth in his cynical analysis of Christ’s words. We are in a spiritual war, and those of us on God’s side will not find peace in this life. As it says in Ephesians 6:12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” These anti-theists may believe that they labor against God of their own volition, but in truth they have been co-opted into the ancient rebellion, as their dogmatic opinions clearly show. They condemn God as the “real” evil, they belittle those who follow God, they distort scripture to “prove” their contentions and they set themselves up as “wise” judges of God and scripture, tantamount to claiming godhood for themselves. As it was written in Genesis 3:5 “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil”, the leader of the rebellion inspired a desire to be like God in humanity, to actually be the god of our own lives. This is what drives the cynical anti-theists, not logic, not facts, but a desire to be like god. And that is also what drives them to destroy the faith of others, not some altruistic motivations but a need to bolster their faith in their own autonomy.

The newspapers are supposed to be the watchdogs for us normal folks. If they started actually printing stories about the waste in spending, people would be outraged. But they don't care, they are in the pockets of the powerful. The powerful who prefer to expand spending, when there could be millions of cuts made. That includes the Gazette...

Bill -

Why didn't Jesus follow through as he said he would? He makes it pretty clear in Matthew, Mark and Luke that he is coming before those he is speaking to die, in their lifetime 2000 years ago.

billnewbie, here's some love from your Jesus Christ Superstar:

"Do not think I have come to send peace on earth: I have not come to send peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

MATTHEW 10:34-37

billnewbie, of course you couldn't respond intelligently to a post that reveals an important truth. Your character and the mentality of scripture leaves you intellectually bankrupt.

As has been pointed out here, the dynamic of religiosity is the need to have outsiders/enemies and the need to hate those people. That hateful dynamic is to such a degree that you can't even get along with your own kind. Note how much you and your fellow christians and fellow believers in islam are at great odds with each other. Sure, you've found the way. Ha!

Bill - how about a little something from Numbers 31? (cut and pasted from biblegateway.com)

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That's right Prounion, keep that cynicism handy. It's so much more comfortable and entertaining than opening you mind.

Bill - Are you sure god created time? Maybe the Flying Spaggetti Monster did?
Back to the cherry picked passages - did god do those things or didnt he? If he did then he seems far from perfect. Did god write the bible or did man?

Fool_on_the_hill, when a person stands on his head, he sees that everything is upside down. When he decides that he has now found the correct prospective and that everyone else is confused or delusional, he becomes Gazettefan.

More of billnewbie's diverseness. If you are claiming that the horrible verses in scripture can be overlooked or superseded by other verses, you are exhibiting the fact that scripture and god are man made. You are exhibiting the fact that the "morality" (and even the immorality) in scripture has its source in human psychology.

The problem is that all the bad stuff in scripture comes with the sanction of a connection to the supernatural.

Freedom from stupidity=Freedom from religion

Prounion, the answers you seek are all in the bible. But just as those who cherry pick verses that fit their agenda, if you don't approach that book with an open mind then you will only find reinforcement for your own assumptions.
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I wonder, do you acquiesce to the assertion that God created time and thereby agree that Mr. Docterman's assumptions are flawed and that his essay is therefore erroneousness or are you just trying to discredit what I wrote in your mind to avoid confronting the error in your own, and his, assumptions?
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When one cherry picks 400 verses from a total of over 31,000, that is the equivalent of reading about one out of every 75 words and then asserting that you have found the true meaning therein, particularly when you use only the words that fit your assumptions.
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You assert that I and all theists have been indoctrinated, again an assumption for the purpose of discrediting what I have written to protect your assumptions. When you consider the fact that what you have written is based on assumptions (beliefs) and not facts, since you don’t know me and cannot know that I have ever been indoctrinated, you have not read the bible for yourself with anything resembling an open mind and you have adopted the cynicism of others such as Chad Docterman either because you cannot or don’t want to take the time and make the effort to investigate these things for yourself, the inescapable conclusion is that your convictions are not based on fact but on assumptions and conjecture that are nothing more than the very faith you ridicule in theists in mirror image.

foolonthehill, what would your question look like if you were to rephrase it?

BillNewbie: "Don’t you realize that Christians particularly, and many other religions too, believe the almighty, all powerful, omniscient and omnipresent God created time?"
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OK - so then god did intentionally create satan, torture, death, famine, earthquakes, malaria? Also he lets all that stuff continue to happen? Why? Also why did he need to torture/kill his son to magically wash away our sins (with blood)?
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Bill - really 400 out of 31,000 is "cherry picking?" What about the other religions you mentioned - why are they so very mistaken in your eyes? Those folks had the same indocternation you did, just a different religion - will they still go to heaven or will they burn because they were born in a different area of the globe?

My own advice Darwin?? You live in here! I visit. Big difference. I'm sure you'll have a great debate for that as well, right? I rest my case.

Gazettefan, has it ever occurred to you that religiosity might be a consequence of one's perception and perspective of reality and not the cause of those things?

Prounion, I suggest you expand your horizons by looking beyond those “thinkers” you find on Evilbible for your sources of information. The fact that they cherry pick 400 or so verses out of over 31,000 to “prove” that God is evil should be enough to warn anyone that they may not be totally honest about what they say. But the fact that you find sense in the “logic” you pasted from there is proof that you have fallen into the trap of wishful thinking.
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Consider the first question posed by Mr.Docterman (the author of the "logic" you referred to as “someone”),”What did God do during that eternity before he created everything?” Don’t you realize that Christians particularly, and many other religions too, believe the almighty, all powerful, omniscient and omnipresent God created time? Wouldn’t such a God with such characteristics by necessity have to also be the Creator of time to be the Creator as time is an integral part of creation (the universe)? So, assuming that God is bound by time as a human is, is the first flaw in this “logic”. The second question in this “logic”, “If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create?” also makes some unfounded assumptions, for instance, that something outside of God would need to exert a force upon Him to initiate His creativity. I realize that humans often times need a spark to ignite their creativity, but is that always the case? Of course not. Necessity may be the mother of invention but it is not the sole progenitor even in humans. So if even humans can initiate their creativity on their own volition, what basis does Mr. Docterman have to claim that God cannot? None of course. Mr. Docterman then goes on at length providing details of what a perfect being would or would not need as if their were some way that Mr. Docterman could know this which is a patently absurd assumption. If this is a sample of the “logical proof” that you embrace for the “fact” that God does not exist, it only proves that you like what you have found and as such, you have failed to accurately assess it.

If I were Dr.Talk I'd be embarrassed by the likes of Kleej and call1(?) and one of the other here who talk like high school dropouts. At least Dr.Talk can string a few sentences together. Kleej and crew say things like: gazettefan makes statements he can't backup. (What?!!!) Then they add nothing that indicates any intelligence.

You people believe in some screwing fairy tail that insulates you from the full, rich reality of the human experience; that fairy tale also reveals your lack of courage for facing that reality.

And this abstract conversation that Dr.Talk likes to engage in is a deflection from the real topic of the judeo-christian-islamic god: the abrahamic god. Defend that god. Defend god's insistence that parents should have misbehaving children stoned to death.

Defend how the believers disingenuously attempt to take the false of moral highground of being against the the momentous breakthrough of the theory of evolution and the life-saving and life-enhancing development of stem cell research.

Sadly, Kleej cannot follow his own advice.

Dr. Talk there is of course the possibility that god exists, just as there is the possibility that you are god, however, it just isn't probable enough to base public policy on or for us as individuals to act on. So, the apparent reality is that god might exist, but working reality is that god does not exist. For example, it is possible that you have an invisible cure for cancer but since you can't prove that your invisible cure for cancer exists it doesn't really matter because the cancer patient is still going to die.

darwin1: "You can divert the issue all you want. God does not exist. Just because you believe that god does exist, doesn't mean that I therefore believe that god doesn't exist."
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First of all I'm not diverting the issue. Second, I never said that you automatically don't believe in God just because I do believe in Him. I said that you can't prove the non-existence of something. Do you understand that there is a difference between saying "God does not exist" and "I don't believe God exists?"

Indy Girl - here is some logic for you that makes sense to me - I cut and pasted it from somewhere -
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What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

darwin~ don't you have anything productive to do with yourself? Do you and gazettefan spend every waking hour online in sites like this to spread your infinite wisdom and countless days and nites letting everyone know you're much smarter and wiser you are than they are? Why not get a life at some point? Is too tall an order for you?

You can divert the issue all you want. God does not exist. Just because you believe that god does exist, doesn't mean that I therefore believe that god doesn't exist. Suppose I claim that I have a medicine that I believe can cure cancer, but I have never proven it cures cancer. You come along and say that it doesn't cure cancer because it has never cured cancer and I retort with, you believe it doesn't cure cancer therefore I require you to prove that it doesn't cure cancer. Would you take that medicine? I don't think so.

This is not how science works. Science isn't a faith system it is a fact system. Faith can't even differentiate between a coincidence and a treatment. You should start a business called "Faith Solutions" and tell the world you can solve problems with faith and not facts and see who invests in your company.

IndyGirl, St. Mother Theresa was an atheist. Was she arrogant too?

darwin1: "I understand that your limited knowledge of science means that you don't realize the burden of proof is on the claimant."
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Well I understand that with your limited knowledge of the English language that you didn't realize you were making a claim when you said "It is a fact that god does not exist.".
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There is a difference between the 2 following statements:
1. I don't believe that God exists.
2. God does not exist.
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The first statement is not taking an affirmative position. The second statement is.
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Now compare these 2 statements:
1. I believe that God exists.
2. God exists.
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The first statement does not takes an affirmative position. The second one does.
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Burden of proof is not required for either of the first statements. Burden of proof is required for both of the second statements.

Anyone heard of Immanuel Kant?

The forum has taken a really philosophical slant. Haha.

~

"I believe in facts not faith..."
"God does not exist."
"What is arrogant is saying something is true without proving it."

So Darwin, I'm assuming that you have somhow successfully proved the non-existance of God with you computers and x-ray machines? ;)

OR perhaps your "faith" in science is strong enough for you to conclude that a God doesn't exist? :)

Some people believe that proof of God's existance is in Fibonacci's numbers or fractals. God and mathematics? Imagine that!

Fool on the hill - good point. And as far as I know Santa never ripped a fetus from a woman's belly and dashed it on the rocks. Maybe Santa would be a kinder gentler god.

God does or doesn't exist? Such discussions are silly and moot. For example, there is far more empirical evidence and documentation proving that Santa Claus exists: millions of children control their behavior to please him; many books have been written about him; I sent him letters and he gave me the gifts I requested; I have pictures of my kids on his lap and, best of all, I have seen him with my own eyes. Are you convinced?

If you say there is no truth, why do you say it like you're right?

Usaret - "darwin1: How do I know you exist? How do I know that the comments are not written by you but by somebody else? After all, I can't see you so why should I believe you exist?"

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wise as always - how do you know that Darwin1 is typing to you? - heck it could be your god, oh no wait - its probably satan trying to tempt you to think for yourself.
Here is the whole point Usaret, if you really really wanted to you could probably gather some more evidence that Darwin1 was or was not the one talking to you. You could call the paper, posibly trace it over the internet provider, track down darwin and watch him type through a window in his home, you might even be able to have him tell you his password or to meet you for coffee. Or you could just have faith that it wasn't Darwin1 - it was indeed satan.

Dr Talk - Logic can certainly prove that a god as you describe him does not exist. You cannot say that your god is loving, all-powerful or all knowing following the standard rules of logic, along with the "historical" record. Of course the burden is on you to make your case. So far the case for the lying spaghetti monster seems more logical.

Dr Talk, I understand that your limited knowledge of science means that you don't realize the burden of proof is on the claimant. You claim god exists but time and time again you sell your spiritual snake oil on faith and not facts.

usanet, you may be right about me, but this isn't about me this about a god that you believe with faith exists. There is nothing factual about it. Just because there is a book called Alice in Wonderland doesn't mean that Alice or Wonderland ever existed. Now you may except it on faith but I believe in facts not faith. Your standards are too low.

darwin1: "It is a fact that god does not exist."
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How do you prove the non-existence of something? It's a logical impossibility. If you would have just said that you don't believe (or think) that God exists, then that wouldn't require burden of proof. But with a statement of fact like that, that requires burden of proof and you placed it squarely on yourself.

darwin1: How do I know you exist? How do I know that the comments are not written by you but by somebody else? After all, I can't see you so why should I believe you exist?

Those experts and their medicines, x-rays, vaccines, sanitation, electricity, computers and so on.

I think you're confusing arrogance with facts. It is a fact that god does not exist. Stating that it does doesn't prove anything except that you can repeat yourself. What is arrogant is saying something is true without proving it.

Again I say.. Welcome to the World of Experts.. gazettefan takes the cake for "most ridicules"

"Sexual repression, sexual crimes, superstition, war, hatred for outsiders, and a barbaric stance that is anti-education re: evolution, medical advancements, and other sciences are the culturally corrosive malignancies that have done nothing but harm human life on this planet. All these things come from judeo-christian-islamic belief."

THATS CRAP you can never back up with facts.

Atheists are just as arrogant as theists because they believe that they know something is the truth without having sound logic or solid proof to back up their beliefs.

So what about the people who are ambivolent? What about those who can live their lives happily and comfortably settle on the fact that we can not and will never know if there is the existance of a "God". I think these people call themselves "Agnostics," but I'd rather not have that label.

~

It irritates me when Christians try to impose their beliefs on me, when they catch wind that I am a "nonbeliever." I find it to be disrespecful of my own beliefs and values, and insulting when I am told things like "I haven't found Jesus yet," as if I'm a marred person destined for hellfire. I am very familiar with Jesus' teachings and I don't need to go "find him," but I will politely listen to the "lost-sheep-find-Jesus" lecture with an open mind...

...I find myself feeling bitter and alienated as a result of knowing that I cannot object with my own logic, and knowing by doing so I would probably be unfairly judged.

Not all Christians are this way, but I've found that this behavior has driven a wedge between me and some very respectable people who are. Being from a rather conservative community, many of my friends are Christians and we've established that some things are just better left unsaid.

Just my opinion. :)

darwin, people like you have been trying to prove you're right for centuries. I admire your tenacity, but, when will it be proof enough, when the world ends? Kind of late then.

Principles are a vague set of rules whereas standards are objective measures. How do you measure someones adherence to a principle? For example, fuel efficiency standards are hard numbers whereas fuel efficiency principles would simply mean we want to do better. So, you may have Christian principles but since there is no standard by which to measure your adherence to those principles we have to take your word for it. No thanks.

In your post you even pointed out that we have to "prove" we are right. Yes, proof would be nice otherwise how do we know its not a lie.

It has no standards? That's a good one! Standards are the same thing as principles. Christians are held to a higher standard by the non-believers because the athiests prime directive is to prove they're right all the time. So be it. As a Christian, I hold myself accountable to these standards because my God requests that of me. Which again, is why he sent his only son to die for us because he knew we're imperfect and no matter how hard we try to hold ourselves accountable to perfection, it's impossible. Too bad everyone wasn't as forgiving as God. That's okay though. He forgives us!

Do you think He'd be offended if He knew I mispelled his name?

Sweet! A fellow Pastafarian!

All hail The Flying Spahgetti Monster, may His noodly appendages bless you.

I really enjoy the "Eight I'd Rather You Didn'ts," although probably not appropriate for this forum. :)

... what about a baseball uniform? The Brewers need all the help they can get this season.

Ramen indeed Pastafarian! Carbo Diem! Awesome link.

It is imploding because it has no standards. Look at the thousands of Christian denominations and you will see what I mean. Anyone can say they believe anything about God or the Bible and because it is all faith based you don't have to prove it is true. Just saying it is the word of God makes it so.

"intelligent gibberish"?!!!

Kramer, they believe god is with you everywhere, even the bathroom, and virgin birth and stuff like that.

IndyGrl, if you're going to do it by praying, you'll have a better chance if you put on a football uniform.

darwin1,gazettfan,prounion Please come to the One True Lord. www.venganza.org RAmen

"what was so mean and hurtful? Why can't we point out the lunacy of the their views?"

lol.

Usaret - what was so mean and hurtful? Why can't we point out the lunacy of the their views? I for one am sick of giving the religious a wide birth because it's their "faith" and we have to respect and accept that. No more I say! Also tax-exempt status has to go as well.

IndysGirl,
All you have to do is pray.

Rather you believe or not believe does not require the meaness, hateful comments passed off by some as intelligent gibberish. Either discuss in a mature and courteous way and if not able to do that at least use less insulting language.

foolonthehill, LOL. And much more cumbersome in the car than 8-tracks.

Indysgirl, the lord is much too busy listening to the conflicting requests of opposing players on sports teams.

So what is this God dude's phone number? Is he listed in the Janesville phonebook or shall I call directory assistance? Does he have an email address? Is he on Facebook or Twitter? I've always had a lot of questions for the guy but he's so gosh darn hard to get ahold of!

"fool on the hill, "papyrus" was cheaper!"

True, Matthew516, but not nearly as funny as an 18-wheeled flatbed backing into Gazettefan's driveway:

beep... beep... beep... beep...

It would all be free of charge if we just ask the people who hear voices.

fool on the hill, "papyrus" was cheaper!

...also stone tablets, Gazettefan, but the shipping costs are horrific.

prounion, are they books or DVDs?

And can I get a discount if I buy in bulk so I can sell them for a profit?

Thanks Keej, and anyone interested in god's three directives - they are 20 bucks each or you can get all three of god's new wisdoms for 63$.

prounion, good for you and welcome. The truth will set you free as you shall see. It's an honor and a privledge to be a part of this with you.

Kleej - Thank you - I took your advice - and called. Sure enough God answered! Lightening struck my garage, which then began to burn. through the flames God spoke to me. He said "Non-believer - get a notepad - you are my new prophet." After I ran in the house he gave me the three directives. The Three Holy Directives - and I wrote them down for all of humanity. Thanks Kleej

The Christian far right could be the most insecure "Lot" I have ever encountered, especially for supposedly intelligent people. Live by example and help others while you believe in God, and I think that is what God would want of us. Extremes in either direction cannot be healthy.

Kleej and Matthew, LOL. Keep pretending; it's pretending that sustains you.

What you're displaying nicely is the self-centered ego absorption that is at the core of the psychological contrivance known as the belief in god. You believe you have a special relationship with the almighty creator of the universe and this belief goes hand-in-hand with your lack of regard for the thousands of people, children, and babies who per hour are being brutalized and murdered by other people (mostly believers of your ilk), diseases, and natural disasters.

No wonder you people claim to be happy. It's all about you! Ha!

Darwin, I'm sorry you're feeling left out. Of course God is there for you as well. Like I said, 24/7 call anytime. God bless you my friend!

yes, gazzetefan, you should just blindly follow Kleej's orders irregardless of the facts just like the Germans did with the Nazis. Never mind the fact that the Gospels contradict each. Never mind that they can't prove anything. Never mind that what they have is so worthless that they can't even give it away. They have to push it on you.

Awesome! Congratulations "gazettefan"! Welcome. I'm proud of you for choosing the right path. You are special. Romans 8:28

Gazettefan, The key to getting started on this journey is humility. Just drop the holier than thou mentality and you'll open the door for greater things. I know you already know everything there is to know in this world, but, of course, after you know everything is when the real learning starts. Congratulations on your new beginning! Praise Jesus!

Gazettefan~ here's a tip to get yourself started on your journey:

Acknowledge God's greatness quietly to yourself or out loud. As you recognize the amazing things that God has done, it is natural to respond to them. A small gesture, like saying "Jesus, you are great" can get you started. You don't have to speak out loud either. God can see even when we acknowledge Him in our heart.

Kleej, this is what I'm saying. "He" should be attending to the thousands of people, children, and babies per hour who are being brutalized and murdered by other people, diseases, and natural disasters. But NO, "he's" sitting around waiting for me to call. No thanks.

gazettfan, remember...God is there for you 24/7
Again, call anytime. And...(you're welcome!)

gazettfan:"And we're supposed to believe in and worship a being who caused this and allow this to happen?!!!"
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God did not cause it, but He does allow things to happen because interfering with our free will would be a greater evil.

If Jesus is risen from the dead then how is he different than a zombie.

prounion:"6,000 years, and you say athiests claim life just appeared?"
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I don't believe that life just appeared; I believe that God created it.

What happened?!!! Kleej didn't leave a violent post in an attempt to promote religion!!!

Amen Kleej !!!!!!!!!!!!
PRAISE JESUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

6,000 years, and you say athiests claim life just appeared?

And that's why thousands of people, children, and babies are brutalized and murdered per hour by other people, diseases, and natural disasters. OK, got it.

And we're supposed to believe in and worship a being who caused this and allow this to happen?!!! No, thanks. Include me out.

"Eve was the one that sinned right - why do I get hit with the penalty?"
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Adam and Eve both sinned.
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." - Genesis 3:6

prounion,
Yes, I think the earth is roughly 6,000 years old.
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usaret, gazettefan,
Yes, is possible to know how long a day was and it is not arbitrary as gazettefan claims. If the Hebrew word for day, Yom, is qualified by a number then it's an ordinary 24-hour day. There are places where the word "Yom" is not qualifed by a number and simply means time. Given the context in Genesis 1, it means a regular day.

One of the preachers makes a spurious statement that blames low church attendance on modern culture.

This heterotaxy of cause and effect is a classic example of the sophistry that passes for wisdom by religionists.

Culture is a manifestation of what humans are and what humans want. Humans formerly wanted the contrivance of religion because certain decisions were too difficult to make. Now humans make the decisions that they formerly relegated to religion. Religion has nothing left to offer. That's why people don't go to church. Religion has failed humans. This is the exact opposite of what the preacher claims.

The principals of this story, by omission, unwittingly acknowledge the above truth: note that none of the preachers stated the consequences of not going to church more than twice a year, or not going to church at all, for that matter. No hint of punishment; especially the big punishment of eternal damnation spent in a fiery hell. Humans don't need this threat anymore to be good. Religion has nothing to offer as a motivation to be good. The preachers, on some level, know this. So they verbally dance around the attendance problem with a bunch of falderall about christians needing to attend church to learn of the christianity of each other.

This means the preachers are attempting to discover what humans want. The preachers are attempting to compromise (this is proof positive that religion and god are man-made). They are turning their backs on the threat of god and scripture that states that the failure to show proper respect for god will result in severe punishment for the non-compliant.

The preachers are sensing the real reasons people attend church nowadays. It's merely a social event that has nothing to do with religion, god, and the supernatural. One of the preachers even alludes to the idea of church attendance being a party. And that's what people want: a party. But know this mr. preacher: parties are supposed to be fun. You have nothing to offer us anymore.

What a surprise! It's the same thing at the same time every year. RERUNS!!!

A great day indeed! Jesus has risen!

"Eve was the one that sinned right - why do I get hit with the penalty?"

So... you've never been married, eh prounion?

Gazettefan: :-D On the flying lessons. Good one.

Happy Easter!

Happy Easter! The earthquake victims in Italy are celebrating Easter today as well. I think we learned during this conversation that they as god's children are stil suffering with disasters because god was angry with them and he is still punishing them for Eve taking the bite out of the apple. Actually he was just angry with Eve, he loves the folks in Italy. Wait I got confused again. Eve was the one that sinned right - why do I get hit with the penalty?

usart, it's whatever pops into believers' heads.

Nice work, prounion. You're really drawing out the confabulation from the believers.

foolonthehill, if grandma ever shows interest in taking flying lessons that don't include landing and taking off, CALL SOMEBODY!!!

OK, let's see, today we're celebrating the third day of when "god" (who you all might remember from last week's sermon) arranged the brutal (Mel Gibson style) murder of his "son."

Which of course was for the purpose of showing how forgiving and loving he is. Let's see, the "he" is "god", right? no, the "he" is the "son", right? wait, there's that ghost thingy. Jeeze, never mind!

-------------

Some guy: "Jesus Christ!, I thought you were dead!"

You know who: "I was, but I didn't like it, now I'm back." (looks upward) "No, wait, I gotta go. He's calling me. I mean I'm calling myself. This trinity thing is messing with my head. And don't get me started on that ghost thing! That dawg be the worst."

Same guy: "Vaya con dios."

JC again: "Knock it off, pal! I have powers!"

HAPPY EASTER, everyone.

Has anyone said how long God's day was? Was it 24 hours or in human term's years? Who really knows!
To believe or not to believe is a persons right but to insult, ridicule, disrespect is a cheap and shallow minded way to go.

DrTalk - how old do you think the earth is? Are you a strict interpreter of the bible - at 6,000 years or so? To say that I believe everything just showed up is just not true.

Also some of those quotes I posted yesterday (from various sites) were not in regards to the isrealites being mauled by god - sometimes it was just some village or town that was minding its own business. So if I was standing in front of a loving judge and he slaughtered a child in front of me then said I was free to go? Nope still not loving.

Again whats up with the blood - seems the Mayans were fascinated with blood at the same time. Weird coincidence?

DrTalk: Attempting to apply logic to popular politics or religion will only give you a headache. Combine them for a migraine.

As I understand it, the term implies "activism" relative to the popular usage definition of a left-right political spectrum, where the right is fiscally and socially conservative and the left is fiscally and socially liberal. In this context, there aren't many reasons why a religious activist would want to move their government to the left. (The one exception might be environmentalism, which some religious groups are beginning to recognize as a "holy endeavor", for lack of a better term.)

That's my impression of the conventional viewpoint. My personal view is, persons who identify themselves as a Democrat or a Republican says more about their loyalty to a group than it says about their personal political philosophy.

fool_on_the_hill,
Yes, "religious left" does sound like an oxymoron, but the fact is that there are loyal Democrats that attend my church. They're just as much religious as I am, but their political views are different. I'm sure it's like that at many churches. So what's the point with using the term "religous right" when the term "religious left" is rarely used if it's ever been used at all?

Yeah prounion never mind that you proved that god is a monstrous creature with your cynical copying and pasting from a source that copies and pastes from the english version of the copied and pasted greek bible which wasn't written during the time of christ but much later. Which seems to be cynical and dishonest but we would have to ask billnewbie on that because he is the expert on being cynical and dishonest. I mean just because Jesus doubted god three times doesn't mean you can.

prouion,
What is your definition of a loving God? Is it Someone who will let you get away with everything you do? God loves everyone unconditionally no matter what we do, but He is also just. We deserve punishment for the bad things we do. Let's say you brake a law and are now standing before a judge. If the judge is just, he will have to punish you to the full extent of the law. But what if he told you that you wouldn't have to be punished if you found someone to take your place? I don't think to many people would. The only one who might to that is someone who loves you very much. Would you take the place of someone you loved very much? In matters of eternity, that's where Jesus comes in. He was willing to take the punishment for us. I see that as a loving God.
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You wanted evidence? God's creation is evidence. But you've been lead to believe that it just arrived here on it's own.

Yea but bill these quotes are from the bible - I have credited them as being from credible folks like yourself - do you still not want to tell me about how your god is loving in the face of his deplorable behavior?

Evilbible has a verse for every day of the year, Prounion, why don't you just post the link and save yourself some time and trouble? But if you get some reinforcement for your cynicism from your laborious efforts, copy away, as it vindicates my opinion of you while you gratify yourself.

Copy and pasted from biblegateway.com:

Numbers 31:7-18 (New International Version)

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Will you forgive me billnewbie? I think I am a little worried that if I post a similar situation in which god was faced with a cut and paste and don't credit situation, you might decide to handle it how he did, that would be very scary indeed.

So, billnewbie is a satanist because his self-righteousness is based on the fact that he believes in a god he can't prove exists. Clearly, this is dishonest.

What part of hell is reserved for copying and pasting?

The benefit is to the ego Prounion, and the payment instantaneous being in this case an elevated level of cynicism and a hardening of the heart.

1 Kings 20:35-36 Source: The freaking Bible - as presented on Holydevotion.org. I did not write this myself, these are either god's words or not depending on your point of view. Worship and praise should in no way be heaped upon prounion as credit for this passage.

35 Now a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to another by the word of the Lord, "Please strike me." But the man refused to strike him.
36 Then he said to him, "Because you have not listened to the voice of the Lord, behold, as soon as you have departed from me, a lion will kill you." And as soon as he had departed from him a lion found him and killed him.

Whats up with this - yet another god being a jerk passage - ten commandments - then some dude shows up says god said to kill me - when he doesn't he is eaten - no doubt by a lion god sent but claims no responsibility for since the lion did the killing.
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I know the answer it was written so you would listen to your preists and pastors. God had nothing to do with it.

Not at all, Fool_on_the_hill. I accept your free will choice without confusion but forgive me if I seem distressed for your soul, because I am. Keep honestly seeking the truth and you may well see things differently someday, and fight the cynicism that locks a closed mind that afflicts so many on this subject, if you don't mind a little advise.

Bill - its an anonymous site - want me to make another log in name and repost with a credit so you can feel comfortable responding? How am I personally taking credit - do I somehow benefit? Is the royalty check in the mail?

No Darwin1, it's not satanic to copy and paste, but it is dishonest and can therefore be argued as satanic to seek or accept credit for the material one copies and pastes and then presents as one's own work. If you were to take off your cynical blinders I think you might actually be able to grasp the concept of honesty even if you don't embrace it.

Thanks for clearing that up, Billnewbie.

I hate to disappoint you, but you'll have to accept me, or not, as is. Confounding as that might seem.

Bill - I am a sinner and I have sinned - I did not post the source as evilbible and I am sorry about it - notice I have started listing my sources now? If I am not interpreting those passages correctly let me know - its just when god says he wants to rip a baby out of a pregnant woman I have truble seeing the other side.

- The civil war that I am an unwitting foot soldier in and on the wrong side of, isn't god all powerful, all knowing, and loving? Are those not the three pillars or your faith?

Fool_on_the_hill, I did write "most atheists". You do seem more sincere (I'm not sure that sincere is the right word but I can't think of another right now) than the others, but still I sense that your mind is closed to alternate possibilities just the same. Yet you are a lot more open than most who claim to be atheist so I have hope for your future.

Prounion, your posts are the same old story anti-theists have been telling for millennia. The bible says there is a spiritual war raging, a civil war. There is nothing new in God's opposition attempting to demonize Him. There is also nothing new in the foot soldiers of the rebellion not being aware of the source of their ammunition. You didn’t attribute your source but what you don’t seem to realize is that evilbible’s creators don’t either. These twisted interpretations of scripture are lies mixed with just enough truth to make them seem plausible. When a person of your disposition towards God reads scripture, it certainly isn’t with an open mind. Because for every “evil” act you eagerly attribute to God, you have to ignore 10 that don’t fit your template. So when you see commentary such as evilbible’s, it fits what you want to be true and you accept it without question. And for all those “murdered“ people you attribute to God’s evil, do you consider His purpose? From what you and others write, it’s obvious that you think there can be no justifiable purpose, substituting your own moral judgement for that of God’s. And as I said, if you haven’t yet mastered personal honesty, why should your other moral judgements be considered accurate? In short, you admit you’ve been caught in dishonesty but still you demand that your moral assertions be taken seriously. If you caught me in such a position, would you accept that from me? Or would you say that I disqualified myself?

I beg to differ, Billnewbie. I don't believe I have ever made a case for atheism by attempting to disprove anything. If I did, then that was in error.

Understand the paradox here, in that atheism can only be a "something" in contrast to theism. Imagine a culture where no form of religion had ever existed. With no concept of theism, the word "atheist" would be meaningless. My beliefs would be exactly the same if there was no religion or hundred more religions.

My all time favorite episode of Star Trek, was the Star Trek, Next Generation episode titled, "Who Watches the Watchers". Its theme deals with a non-religious, alien culture. As Mr. Spock might say, "Fascinating..."

The other day, on another blog here, someone posted the link to a video about someone having a conversation with God. I immediately sent the link to my Aunt, not because it means anything to me, but because I knew how much it would mean to her. My interest in religion is only with respect to what, if anything, it means to its followers. It means nothing to me. Quite simple really. Happy Easter!

Dr.Talk - thanks for the question - what would it take for me to believe. Some evidence for one. Something that made logical sense. The entire religion looks like one big myth, that has evolved over the years taking on big chunks of the myths before it. Then it gets wrapped up in Jesus and the bible and sifted through and more myths added, some things removed, then passed off as fact by the catholic church. Your religions are really very recent developments/offshoots of that. At any rate - the largest concentration of gold in the world - you guessed it - the vatican. The reason why the handicapped and women bans from god suprise you is that you might think that god wrote the bible - nope just a bunch of dudes, reflecting the values of the time and getting a book together that met thier needs, and made sure they had work and power and protection and, most of all gold. So to answeryour question - what would it take - that somehow what you believe would be a more logical and consistant than reality.

Clearly, copying and pasting is a Satanic ritual.

In the passage in question (1 Samuel 16:14-15), God removed His Spirit from the disobedient Saul. This opened the door for an evil spirit to come and torment Saul. Though in this passage, it is only the servants of Saul that said the evil spirit was from the Lord, in other passages (1 Samuel 18:10; 1 Samuel 19:9), the text states that the evil spirit came from the Lord.
This is from learnthebible.org, they go on to say the same thing Drtalk says - the spirit that the lord unleashed did evil, not the lord - the lord just allows it to happen. Then explains that if I just obey and submit that it will be all good. Why does god always seem to have a gun at our heads? Again I ask - this is the entity you spend your time and faith on?

Dr Talk - "He is a loving God, but He gave us free will. He can't make us love Him. When people constantly reject Him, it opens the doors for a lot of terrible stuff."
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The terrible stuff involved god killing everyone in new and inventive ways and then brioling them in hell for all of eternity. Can you elaborate on how this is loving? Because when I tell tell a special lady friend that if she doesn't love me I will destroy her and her family and if she has any farm animals she can consider those a loss too, she inevitably takes out a restraining order. They don't usually mention that they think I am loving as they do it - and guess what the judge never buys that I am just a loving person, especially when I then explain to him that it was her fault for not loving me.

First off -

I am guilty - I did cut and paste the stuff I wanted you to see to prove my point and see if those passages had any impact on you. That and the fact that I don't believe in god will result in eons of pain and torture for me.

Billnewbie - was it the post about maybe we could find a nicer god that got you thinking I was a secret satanist or maybe influenced by one? See for me believing in satan would be like believing in god - there just isn't any evidence that satan exists. I was just pointing out that according to your god's word - he seems to be pretty evil himself.

Also I very much enjoyed the ends justify the means attack on my posts - like because I cut and paste on an anonymous forum and don't give credit - the post isn't worth considering. Hey next time you talk to god though - tell him that, see if he had that in mind when he killed the women and children of Jerico to make room for his chosen people.

Perhaps Darwin1 misunderstood the nuance in what I wrote about personal honesty because I misspelled the word vice. Or maybe Darwin1, like Prounion has no problem with the means used as long as they think the ends are justified. I've claimed that most atheists are really anti-theists and this discussion bears that out as none of the "atheists" can make any case for their chosen beliefs without attacking God. In that they bear a striking resemblance to satanists who also claim that God is evil, the only difference being that they worship the persona of anti-theism and not just its precepts. While I'm sure these "atheists" will deny and condemn the very idea of any association between them and satanism, they never the less seem to be highly influenced by it at best, perhaps even infiltrated by it unbeknownst to them.

Yeah, prounion who are you to judge with your copying and pasting of someone elses facts that clearly demonstrate that the christian god is a monstrosity. Sure, the christian god is mean, cruel and vindictively murders people who had it coming but that is nothing compared to your copying and pasting. Of course had you been honest about your copying and pasting things would be different but since you were'nt your facts don't count. Sorry. God and billnewbie split hairs.

I thought that Prounion was a serious seeker of truth, but no, he has his cynical blinders firmly affixed. I also see he freely copies and pastes from an internet source without any attribution. Evilbible.com isn't it, Prounion? I guess that when one is defending one’s anti-theistic faith, extremism, even plagiarism is no vise. Not that Mr. Thiefe has copyrighted any of the material on that site (it's probably not his to copyright), but it is still plagiarism (and awfully dishonest) to present it as your own as Prounion has done in this forum.
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If you're going to set yourself up as a judge of the works of God, don’t you think you should at least have mastered personal honesty to have any credibility as a judge, Prounion?

prounion:"looks like god allows alot of terrible stuff huh? You know what would be cool - a loving god."
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He is a loving God, but He gave us free will. He can't make us love Him. When people constantly reject Him, it opens the doors for a lot of terrible stuff.

prounion,
I intend to answer your questions, but I need to know something first: What would it take for you to believe? You've done a lot of mocking, then at one point you seemed serious about learning more about Christianity, then returned to mocking it again. If your point is to continue mocking even after I've answered your questions because you didn't like the answer, then there really no point in me answering them. If you are serious, I'll do my best to answer them when I have time. This weekend I'll be busy with my family celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So, the answers might have to wait at least until Monday. Have you ever thought about praying to God for answers?

Dr.Talk looks like god allows alot of terrible stuff huh? You know what would be cool - a loving god.

Dr Talk come on - really - out of all the posts that was your only objection? FOn Hill -gods word should not be accepted in its entirety - did he screw up some part or are you just picking and choosing? If I write a bible and just use the god is love parts - where I can find them - will you give me ten percent of what you make each year? And yes I will hold services.

I take back my last post about the evil spirit. I was thinking of a different verse where someone else claimed in was from the Lord. The 1 Samual passage in context means that the Lord ALLOWED the evil spirit to enter Saul. Saul made his own choice and he chose to reject God. Rejecting God opened the door for the evil spirit.

prounion:"Every once in a while - maybe he creates a little evil himself?"
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If you read that verse in context, it is one of Saul's servants claiming that the evil spirit is from God.

gazettefan:"DrTalk, the second sentence of your 1:46 post makes no sense to me."
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Then go see the movie.
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"You have nothing with the Columbine murderers."
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Here's the proof that they were atheists:
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/pdf/...

"If you bother to list more examples, don't do it without listing all the religious murderers of human history."
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I'm not denying that people have used religion to commit murder. But you're in denial that no atheist has committed murder. But they have and they will be held accountable for their actions.

Some kind of worldwide religious congress is required for believers to explicitly repudiate every word of dangerous scripture.

Such parts of scripture should be set aside for separate reading and study.

GFan, why would I want to summarize something that you can just read directly, yourself?

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/031320...

No, I don't take assignments here.

Tell me what it was about. Is there going to be such a congress?

"Some kind of worldwide religious congress is required for believers to explicitly repudiate every word of dangerous scripture." --GFan

Didn't you watch or read the transcript of Bill Moyers interview of that religious historian I'd recommended a few weeks ago? I think you'd find it interesting.

foolonthehill, read what I said about how as long at it's still there it has the potential to inspire extremists. Moderates are perpetuating this danger.

I don't think you gave my posts a good read.

gazettefan and prounion, I would venture to guess you would find very few present day believers who accept scripture in its entirety.

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

upnorth...., my only concern about hell is running into you there. All you've done here is insult people. Why don't you respond to the issues. Defend or explain your beliefs. You can't because they're nonsense. As for happiness, no one who'd write a post like your previous one is happy. You've given yourself away. Ah, the joys of believing in Christ!!!

Yes, that's the danger. All that rotten stuff is still there, not repealed. So-called moderates as well as fundamentalists are keeping it alive. Fundamentalists will continually be able to rely on it to sanction the worst of human behaviors.

Some kind of worldwide religious congress is required for believers to explicitly repudiate every word of dangerous scripture. All the bad stuff should be taken out of the Old and New Testaments, the Koran, and the Book of Mormons. Not destroyed, though, I'm against book burning. But removed from religious teachings.

Jesus in John 14:12 & Mark 16:17-18 said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." This implies that Jesus’ true followers should be able to routinely perform the following tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2) speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents, 4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching them and MANY other of Jesus’ "works". Curiously I have yet to see a Christian that can do any of the above on demand.

And if DrTalk writes it off as non-applicable because it comes from the Old Testament, then he should be reminded that Jesus considered himself a Jew, a rabbi, and devoutly preached the Old Testament.

Gazette - too true. So when will god change his mind again and go on a killing spree? If the bible were true I would suggest that this cruel god might have a weakness. He gets very upset when we worship anyone else and according to DrTalk can't just wipe satan immediatly. Maybe our prayers give him power? So if we pray to whoever competes with this god maybe we can get one that is not quite as bloodthirsty.

Excellent example, Prounion. Expect some deflective double-talk to counter your devastating example.

And if DrTalk's religion doesn't abide by the mentality of that verse: That non-compliance is proof that religion and god are man-made. The mentality of that verse was OK way back when but now humans reject it. A human creation has been changed by humans. God didn't show himself to say: Ya know that crazy Leviticus verse about how I despise disabled people? I'm repealing that one.

Sorry, Dr.Talk, it's still there. You must live in contradiction to the word of god. At least I hope you will!!!

Seriously If I invited you to come over for tea with someone who did these things you would run in terror then dial 911. But you think I am off base and not seeing reality? This is your god folks.

1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.

Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.

Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

I guess sometimes his eternal love is just not enough to convince us? This is an easier way to get faith and loyalty?

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

I for one, not a big fan of the grinding.

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42 NAB)

Every once in a while - maybe he creates a little evil himself?

Then an evil spirit from the Lord came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with spear in hand and David was playing the harp nearby. Saul tried to nail David to the wall with the spear , but David eluded Saul, so that the spear struck only the wall, and David got away safe. (1 Samuel 19:9-10 NAB)

Is this enforced at your church?

As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:33-35 NAB)

Is you god a jerk?

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron that in all future generations, his descendants who have physical defects will not qualify to offer food to their God. No one who has a defect may come near to me, whether he is blind or lame, stunted or deformed, or has a broken foot or hand, or has a humped back or is a dwarf, or has a defective eye, or has oozing sores or scabs on his skin, or has damaged testicles. Even though he is a descendant of Aaron, his physical defects disqualify him from presenting offerings to the LORD by fire. Since he has a blemish, he may not offer food to his God. However, he may eat from the food offered to God, including the holy offerings and the most holy offerings. Yet because of his physical defect, he must never go behind the inner curtain or come near the altar, for this would desecrate my holy places. I am the LORD who makes them holy." (Leviticus 21:16-23 NLT)

foolonthehill, some of those people aren't really scientists. And some who have degrees have irrational beliefs consistent with not abiding by the scientific method. And if there are any genuine scientists who are believers, they have managed to compartmentalize one from the other. Humans are capable of this. In low degree, it's normal with things other than religion. In high degree, it's Orwellian double-think. Importantly, the low degree ones abide by the scientific method and do not embrace nonsense like creationism.

DrTalk, the second sentence of your 1:46 post makes no sense to me.

And, I've covered this before: Mao, the Bolsheviks, Stalin, and others rose to power by tapping into the irrational religiosity (redundant) of their masses. These leaders posed as Christ-like or god-like figures and were allowed to be all-powerful unelected dictators. This mirrors perfectly the followings that adhere to the all-powerful unelected leaderships of Christ and god. Important to this commonality is irrational thinking. No society has prospered in a healthy manner with irrational thinking. Note how democracies don't outlaw religion but the ferocity of religion is diminished with elections and the free thinking that is part and parcel to that form of government.

If we were truly a christian nation our legal system would be composed of the barbarism of the Old and New Testaments. We would be like Islam. Women would suffer untold abominations etc.

You have nothing with the Columbine murderers. If you bother to list more examples, don't do it without listing all the religious murderers of human history. You'll need an eternity to do so. Turn you nitpickery toward your own crazy beliefs. Good luck.

Stick to the facts bucky. Scientists conduct experiments and report those findings in studies. My standards have always been high, yours have not. So, finally you have one Muslim scientist apparently. Just so you know his god and the Christian god are the same god. Jesus is the different. You know Christians = Jesus Christ.

Sorry I was wrong. You don't have two imaginary scientists you have one. Now does he pray to his god to save his patients or does he use science to actually try to help them. It seems as though he may just be paying lip service to god if he doesn't practice what he believes. Sounds like a closet atheist to me.

Religious Left sounds like an oxymoron, huh DrTalk?

A representative (Baptist Minister, if I recall) of some religious movement was a guest on Tavis Smiley a while back. The topic was how the Republican party had disingenuously "used" fundamentalist Christians to serve their own political agenda and, as I recall the discussion, a realignment of politics was in progress. You might be able to find a video or transcript of the program on the web.

gazettefan:"From what I've heard about Dawkins he rejects everything you're saying here."
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No, he said that in the movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"
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"As for the killer you describe, I never hear of these people being atheists."
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The Columbine kids were atheists. Mao was an atheist. Mussolini was an atheist. You want me to name more?

DrTalk, so what if someone doesn't rule out the possibility that there may have been a microscopic extraterrestrial origin to life here. That theory, as I know it, doesn't include intelligent creatures from outer space being involved. It has something to do with meteors or comets. And whoever your citing isn't aligned with the crap on overnight radio, are they?

From what I've heard about Dawkins he rejects everything you're saying here.

As for the killer you describe, I never hear of these people being atheists. If we acquire any knowledge about them on that score, they turn out to be religious and believe they are acting out god's will and heaven awaits them. Like the ones who crashed the planes on 9/11.

It's interesting that you can nitpick things that intelligent people know to be true. But when it comes to a thorough examination of your own cocky-eyed beliefs, you leave the scrutiny and critical thinking behind. You are posing as someone who's analytical but you are only defending the indefensible by endeavoring to reject the obvious. You are wittingly or unwittingly playing a game.

I've been gone, and in reading the recent posts, I've enjoyed how Prounion, Darwin1, and foolonthehill have been answering your questions. Well-done, people.

I've got a question relating to the use of the term "religious right" in the headline of this article. Is there such a thing a the "religious left?"

Darwin1, did you read my post? It's not Raskin, it's another guy who worked with Humanized. And as I said, he left Humanized to go back into rocket science. Second, if you read in his profile, he has done studies for medical science, also.

Here, I'll include the part talking about the studies: "He has previously worked on the detection of lung nodules at the University of Chicago Hospital and the origin of cosmic rays at the Whipple Observatory."

Also, again, this man's uncle is the stem cell scientist.

By the way, I have another friend, a neurologist at the Mayo Clinic, who is published and is a Muslim. So, he believes in God, not the Christian God, but still a higher power. His name is Nizar Chahin. Look him up. Better yet, here's a list of his authored papers: http://www.scilink.com/profile.action;js...

You seem to be changing the rules my little friend. First you say you want scientists. Then you say you want biologists, etc. Now you say the scientists have to be published. Why don't you just admit you were wrong, apologize and be done with it? You know, it's OK to admit you're wrong sometimes... It's part of being human.

gazettefan,
You stated below belief in God, virgin birth, etc. was "no different than that stuff on overnight radio: preaching about ET visits..."
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But even Richard Dawkins doesn't rule out the possibility that we're here because of direct panspermia or exogenesis by ETs.

darwin1,
You're only relying on one speicfic definition of faith (the only one that I think you apparently want to accept). Here are the other definitions of faith that I found from m-w.com:
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion (2): complete trust3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
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Here is a definition of belief from m-w.com (but I'm sure you don't want to accept this one either):
3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Good question, DrTalk. (For the record, I've never claimed acceptance of Big Bang.)

My explanation is, harmony begets harmony. Order survives while disorder does not. Chaos is self-extinguishing. That is the essence of evolutionary theory.

Clearly, DrTalk has a difficult time with definitions. Belief through faith means there IS NOT EVIDENCE. What part of that don't you understand?

Looking? You look? Yes, that's what Darwin did he looked. That's all looked. Do doctors look at medicine for eight years? No study. No measurements. No comparative analysis. No quantitative data. Way to dumb it down.

fool_on_the_hill,
I agree that the universe is not random. But how did go from the big bang to, as you said, "The planets orbit the sun in harmonic mathematical relationship."

gazettefan: "If people feel they only have to answer to god, they will do illegal things and other bad things here, and if they don't get caught they will do so with earthbound impunity. And they will thus avoid judgment in the afterlife because the afterlife doesn't exist."
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What about the atheist who doesn't beleive that they will be held accountable in the afterlife? Let's say they go on a killing spree and then kill themselves to avoid earthly punishment. If there is no God, then there's no punishment in the afterlife either. But would someone go on a killing spree if they believed there was a God that they would be accountable to? A "Christian" who bombs an abortion clinic will be held accountable here on earth (provided he didn't kill himself in the process) and be held accountable in the afterlife.

DrTalk: As one who at one time held deist beliefs based entirely on the assumption that beauty and intricacy in nature could not have "just happened", I can relate to that sense of wonder.

One major factor that always seems to get left out of the "spontaneous creation" discussion is the fact that the universe is NOT random. From the atomic level to (at least as far as I know) the level of our solar system, there is harmony in the relationship of a natural system's elements. The planets orbit the sun in harmonic mathematical relationship. Organic molecules are built from atoms with harmonic mathematical relationships. String theory suggests that all matter is comprised of vibrating strings of energy.

Some call this "the music of the spheres". Perhaps life is no more than an inevitable consequence of this music.

Prounion: Your explanation is so far the best and one I've heard from others. I'm still trying to understand their ongoing mental process of reconciliation.

Thanks for clearing that up, DrTalk. So, the apple falling to the ground is evidence of some force we can't see or fully explain, yet we give that unseen force the name, "gravity".

I think the difference is, a scientist wouldn't extrapolate "gravity" as also being responsible for all other unexplained phenomenon and then grant "gravity" status as a sentient entity with intelligence and volition. An apple falling to the ground implies none of that.

Darwin1:"if there is evidence then how do you have faith. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence which is why it is called "faith" and not "truth"."
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You were talking about empirical based evidence. I have no problem believing in speciation or micro-evolution. But if you try to tell me that would prove that everything came from a common ancestor I would disagree. You look at everything in the world and conclude that it all just arrived here on it's own. I look at all the same things you do and conclude that there's a Creator.
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Faith is not the belief in the absence of evidence. It's the evidence of things unseen. You can't see the wind or gravity, but there's evidence that they exist. There's evidence that there's creator, but the only thing lacking it the sight of Him. That's what would give us knowledge of His existence instead of having faith in His existence.

Fool - I think religious scientists, people that are clearly smart and rational but still belive in god have one thing in common. They have been told that god and hell exist from the day they were born, their families tend to all buy into this stuff. Its a way of life to them that would be very difficult to change.

You seem to be confounding two issues, Gfan.

I agree that Darwin1's "moral relativity paradox" you've quoted is a excellent topic. I wasn't speaking to that.

I am addressing the topic, "What's the deal with theistic scientists? How do they pull that off?"

Are we going back to the evidence for god again if so please allow me to leap to the questions I asked yesterday that didn't get answered -

1. Why does god need blood to wash away sin? I already know it says it in the bible but that does not explain why? Also do you see how that makes it seem like god is showing the signs of fledgling seriel killer - obsessed with blood, killing animals, then people?
2. Eventually one of you will ask us to prove there is no god, I again would like to see the evidence that there is no Santa.

Darwin1 knows if people get caught doing illegal things on Earth they stand a good chance of being punished.

I think his point is: If people feel they only have to answer to god, they will do illegal things and other bad things here, and if they don't get caught they will do so with earthbound impunity. And they will thus avoid judgment in the afterlife because the afterlife doesn't exist.

Compartmentalization is something entirely different than what I am talking about, Gfan.

Disagreement on the definition of "evidence" seems to be the dinosaur in the room, DrTalk.

What are your "rules of evidence", as they differ from those of scientists, DrTalk?

DrTalk, if there is evidence then how do you have faith. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence which is why it is called "faith" and not "truth".

Darwin: "The problem with saying that your accountable to god is the fact that your accountability doesn't happen until after you're dead. It is a very morally relativistic argument. I believe that Jesus said there are no two greater commandments than these: love god, love your neighbor. So, you have to be accountable to god and man. Not just god. However, religious people have conveniently twisted their morality so they don't have to be answerable to man, just god and so can do whatever they like in his name and still somehow claim accountability. It is a lie."
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You lack understanding. We are subjected to same punishment on earth as anybody else is. If we steal, lie, rape, murder, we are subjected to the same accountability and punishment as anybody else while we're here on earth. What I was talking about before was the judgment seat of Christ. I thought I made that clear.

foolonthehill, it's called: compartmentalization. In its most extreme form, it's called: Schizophrenia.

Aspects of mentality are segmented from one another.

Darwin:"Because, I would be interested in knowing how someone can apply empirically based methodologies to their job and not their personal belief systems."
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You're assuming that they don't apply empirically based evidence to their belief system. I've written before that I don't deny it. What you fail to understand is that the difference is in the interpretation of the evidence.

"Because, I would be interested in knowing how someone can apply empirically based methodologies to their job and not their personal belief systems." --Darwin1

I'd like to understand that too, Darwin1. Never underestimate the power of the human mind. Just because we don't understand, doesn't render it impossible. I presume they use some sort of mental segmentation of faith and reason, described previously in these blogs. Why don't you ask one of them to explain they how they do it?

This is some of the best written wisdom available! http://chrisbrady.typepad.com/my_weblog/...

razor..., don't be paranoid. Read the rules. Vaya con Dios.

No, Raskin is a software engineer not a scientist. I couldn't find a single published study by him anywhere on his personal website or any reference to his belief system anywhere on his personal web page either. So, if he is a believer it is clearly not something he wants to put out there.

The other guy is a software guy too. What are you doing? You give me a couple of non-scientist and call them scientists. This is a typical strategy of the religious. Just call them scientists and that makes it so.

So, they aren't imaginary people just imaginary scientists. Even in the development of software you can perform usability studies to see how effective it is and publish them in a journal. Yet they don't even do research in the fields they are currently in. If they have published studies please let me know. Because, I would be interested in knowing how someone can apply empirically based methodologies to their job and not their personal belief systems. Do they believe in miracles? Do they understand what anecdotal evidence is?

Hey, welcome back Darwin1. Are you gonna apologize now for claiming my scientist friends were imaginary? That would be the honorable thing to do, or does your disbelief cause you to be accountable to no one?

The problem with saying that your accountable to god is the fact that your accountability doesn't happen until after you're dead. It is a very morally relativistic argument. I believe that Jesus said there are no two greater commandments than these: love god, love your neighbor. So, you have to be accountable to god and man. Not just god. However, religious people have conveniently twisted their morality so they don't have to be answerable to man, just god and so can do whatever they like in his name and still somehow claim accountability. It is a lie.

"The athiests believe they can do it on their own and it's not possible." --razorsharp.

Correction. The atheist believes that each and every one of us is and has always been doing it on our own.

Some call this the buried treasure effect. If someone believes there is a chest of gold coins buried in their back yard, it gives them comfort and confidence believing it will always be there for them, should they need it. It doesn't really matter if that chest of gold coins actually exists. What matters is, they believe it exists.

An atheist's disbelief in unsubstantiated buried treasure is not a consequence of atheism. Atheism is a natural consequence for someone who is intrinsically unaffected by unsubstantiated beliefs.

razor...., go with the nailed bleeders, we don't want you. You can't sustain the hard wrought truths of reality. Why don't you start by citing scripture as a defense of belief in god and Christ. And ask him for forgiveness for your affront to gina's back.

upnorth......, instead of complaining about me and mischaracterizing my powerful debating techniques why don't you face the fact that Easter is a pagan ritual. It was borrowed or stolen from the pagans as a public relations ploy to garner more converts; it has nothing to do with Christ!

As far as face-to-face goes, you would lose prodigiously on points. The problem with your kind, though, is that since you have nothing substantial to defend, and no skills for such, all you would do is dumb-down the conversation.

Bill...I have seen you (and other very knowledgable people) go 'roud and'round with Gaz and it's not working. Please don't say I'm like him because I won't argue the bible with him. It's like beating a dead horse where he's concerned. Gaz always twists things, and as I've said in other discussions, I think this debate is best done face to face, with The Book in hand. Have a nice Easter :)

Looks like some folks are showing their true colors. They claim they want true debate but unless you are on their side of the fence you are merely ridiculed for any point you make.

Razor that screws things up I have already founded a church based on the powers of Gina's rectum. Please do not be a Gina's Rectum Denialist, you must respect my beliefs, we just filed for tax excempt status.

Razor its not yor or a single religious people I fear, its when they have the majority and impose thier will on others - exactly what our forefathers came to America to escape. What can't I do myself as an athiest?

gina51,
God created dinosaurs on Day 6 with the rest of the land animals.

Prounion, I reproduce mightily. And fortunately I'm not bald and never will be. I've had malaria, though. Not pleasant. I didn't even hallucinate a false god, let alone see a real one.

Yes, I.D. That's a good one. If believers put as much effort toward understanding established truths as they do while sitting around and making stuff up, they might make some headway into the real world.

I wonder if we should consider I.D. an improvement on raping and burning women for being "witches."

razor...., I didn't read all your posts, but I read the one that shows you're rude. What is it that you're admitting to; I'm not going back to read your posts.

My posts are unique monuments to clear and incisive reasoning, it's not necessary for you to like me.

And quit skipping your medication times.

Gazette - if you are indeed unable to reproduce is that further evidence against Intelligent Design, I mean would god have designed you to have various defective parts? Hey wait a tick - why did god design us to die then, or to sometimes self terminate, or to go bald, or get cancer? Maybe he could have designed us so that we would not get malaria?

Callit - Kleej pretty sure Kleej meant that santa is the one truth.

Prounion, LOL

So much for razor.....'s christianity!

Gina, razor.... owes you an apology.

Looks like Kleej is back from christian articulation school.

callitas--- You are absolutely right. No need to argue about all this anymore. There is only one truth and Jesus is it. Thanks for clearing that up.

Callsit - ok will do - thanks! I think we did convert some folks here. I mean Razor just moved from thinking god created dinosaurs to Gina51 creating them so I think we are on the path to reality.

Let's see, this argument has been going on for thousands of years and you Gazette posters think you are gonna hash out the truth and/or change the opposing sides point of view? Get off your computers and do something constructive with your time.

Gina welcome! Dinosaurs are an example of not so intelligent design.

Prounion, and another allusion to evolution is: Even the moderate religionists are a danger:

With families, they produce more believers. And even if the effort is to only produce moderates, among those moderates will be fundamentalists who will come into existence by piggy-backing on the moderate's family dynamic. Much like an inherited disease that doesn't strike every family member and may even skip a generation or two.

DrTalk - shouldnt it be like everything - most of your time, most of your respources, really what happens on earth is meaninless isn't it. What is 90 years compare with a million trillion bagillion times that? Should not then every spec of effort be devoted to god?

Where did dinosaurs come from? I've heard some say that dinosaurs never existed and that they are one of Satan's tricks ? Anyone?

prounion:"why not more?"
I do give away more. You only asked me if I tithe. Tithe literally means 10%. My gifts to charity are above and beyond the tithe.

Ok Intelligent design suporters - if god created this complex system of life, what created god? Or is it like santa - he was always here, will always be here and you need to have fiath? Also Santa could reveal himself to you but then it would remove the mystery so what would be the value to Santa? Oh and by the way if yo don't believe and serve Santa - hell forever and ever.

Right on Gazette, they will get there, we as humans will get there. They might not be able to shake off their indoctrination just yet but we will help as best we can. Eventually they will embrace evolution and push it back a step further – that sure evolution is valid – but hey where did the globe come from – well that’s god that did that. If they read their history they would understand that their historic brethren have been fighting this battle for centuries. The world is round, its not the center of the universe, there are not sea monsters just off shore, ect…they have also be persecuting those that attempted to shine the light of reason on those issues.

Originally believers automatically rejected the developments of science. Now they try to mimic it with a bunch of made up stuff.

What's interesting about this is that they are exhibiting the transitional stage of one species evolving into another species.

Mimicry in nature is sometimes adaptive. But believers will not make the big breakthrough with mimicry alone. They must actually wise up!

Also can't someone at least try to disprove Santa's existence? Maybe the world is so complex that the only explanation for its existence is Santa?

Come on Monotheists bring it! Or all you all busy with the gay marriage article - worried your god objects to the perceived corruption of the sanctity of marriage while he has no problem with torture of his own son on the cross?

So Intelligent Design. Systems are so complex we could not possibly understand how they would come into being without, well, some sort of being making them appear by some magical force or - ok folks a devine force. Whats up with extinction - why are have so many more species gone extinct than exist today? Divine creator can't make something that survives most of the time?

Razor - so the founding fathers were aithiests but somehow managed to base the foundations of the country on religious values? I think we are in agreement now that you don't have to believe in god to be moral. I mean after all our founding fathers managed to build this nation and its values without basing them on god - and we agree that the values this country was founded on are excellent and moral.

Dr Talk - why not more? I mean we are talking about eternity here, come on man whats a buck today to save my soul for a few thousand eons? Really having that car paid for during this miniscule spec of time that your soul will be in existance, this blink of an eye, when you could be saving souls full time?

Prounion:

darius' comment is classic believer ignorance! How could he possibly know anything if he believes crap like that?!

Darious you got me on that one - roving bands of aithiests are well known for thier murding ways. The Spanish inquisition, witch trials, war after war after war, the holocaust, on and on it goes - but its really the roving bands of aithiests that we should keep a close eye on. Please tell me more about them, like did they committ the crime because the teacher did not believe as they did? It was thier believe in logic and reason as opposed to their specific almighty god that drove them to do it? Please feel free to post a link.

billnewbie, the nicest thing I can say about your stem-cell comment is that you are PRETENDING to be that ignorant, because, wow, you can't really be that ignorant, can you?!

DrTalk, to point out flaws and lies is in-itself clarification. How much discussion is justified when the religious side of that discussion is internally irrational. To criticize crazy beliefs is justified. What is the alternative? That you explain scripture and doctrine with the internal "logic" of those things?

Again, if you people were just off to the side like the Amish (though they're not entirely off the hook: they are very parasitic), then you wouldn't be open to justifiable criticism.

prounion,
Yes, I go to church on Sundays and I tithe 10% of my gross wages, not 10% of my net wages.

"Some posters would lead you to believe that religion is the cause of this downturn."
Some poster would lead you to believe that religion isn't the cause of this downturn.

prounion, there ya go, you new age intellects trying to speak for the dead! I rest my case!

prounion, I moved from an area near Chicago some years back and a group of athiests gang raped my 2nd grade school teacher and sliced her throat. My pastor at church sat me down and had a talk with me. He insisted, "these people know not what they do. They're driven by evil forces that haunt them everyday. They will be tried in a court of law which will convict them for their acts and they will be punished accordingly. Don't hate, learn. Don't hate, learn!" He is absolutely right. People label Christians by a different grade scale, obviously! Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on morality, nor does it claim to have. When a Christian commits a crime it's the religions fault?? When an athiest commits a crime, it's their own fault? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever, other than to say, everybody makes mistakes, however, Christians aren't allowed to! Why do you think Christ died for every human being on Earth??? Because they are imperfect! So don't try and twist the picture around to fit your particular frame. Can you do that?

Darious maybe you can tell me more about your founding fathers wanting to base the country on your religion?

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Darious - enjoy!
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

I think he would say today that he was wrong on the last quote.

Dr Talk - do you go to church on Sundays? Do you tithe 10% of your wages?

Darious - when is the last time you heard of a band of atheists burning someone alive, or blowing themselves up, or killing an abortion doctor? You sure that religion equates with morality, history disagrees with you. Holocaust.

prounion:"when god and satan fight how close will the battle be? If they fought today would god win? If so why does he not go ahead and engage in battle and stop the death of a child from starvation every four seconds?"
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I don't think the battle will be close. The Bible says it will last only one day. And Yes, God will win. What we don't know is when Aramageddon will occur. "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."(Matthew 24:36)

prounion, really??? That's priceless! Especially when these words were uttered by George Washington himself!:
(maybe they've been erased from your new history books!)
"Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of RELIGIOUS obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLE"

Bill - also if you could go ahead and prove absolutely that Santa does not exist that would be awesome.

Bill - lets assume you are right on my conscious and on Intelligent design being proof - there is a god. Why this one then? Because a few folks wrote it down - what if they lied? What if there was a real god that was a loving one that didn't have such a thirst for blood, one that would not order his followers to kill innocent children, or order an angel to do it?

Well Razor you seemed to indicate that the founding fathers founded this great nation on religious views/values, I submit they did not. In fact I would point out that during the 8 year George W was on his, as he put it, "crusade" in the middle east, and the move to a more theocratic society during that time we basically broke the world. Maybe going forward we should not count on a miracles, but should think things through based on logic?

That's not true Prounion. There is evidence. For one, you have a conscience which helps guide you. For another, you have the complexities of nature which implies a design and therefore a designer. You have your own intellect and a thirst for truth that is totally unique to humanity throughout creation and implies a creator. And you have the word of God which has been testified to by eyewitnesses that are now mainly doubted because they are dead. Is that conclusive evidence that constitutes proof? No. For that, God would have to introduce Himself to you personally and then that free will that He apparently thinks is so important would evaporate in the aura of His presence. And so you are faced with a choice. Can you humbly accept an almighty God who has absolute sovereignty over you, or do you reject such a being, demanding sovereignty over your own life? Because there’s no absolute proof that He doesn’t exist either. So no matter how you choose, your choice will be based on faith. My advise is to carefully consider your options and choose well.

Razorsharp-I couldn't agree with you more!
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The problem is that as we grow more "intelligent" we believe we have all the answers and therefore live by our own rules.
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The moral decay in this country is bringing us to our knees. People cheating to get ahead, lying, living lifestyles that would make our forefathers blush. One small example, the increase in the number of unwed mothers; many studies show the negative impact on the mother and the children both intellectually and financially. This increase is only creating a bigger burden on our society. It is disgusting that we have men out there that are failing in their duties as a father! Not only are you failing your children, you are failing your country!

Ok Dr Talk - so we were created to love and worship god. Is god so shallow he needs us to pray to him and like him. It looks like it - if we pray to anyone else the penalties sometimes involved him killing our children. This will sounds liek sarcasm but it is not - when god and satan fight how close will the battle be? If they fought today would god win? If so why does he not go ahead and engage in battle and stop the death of a child from starvation every four seconds?

Razorsharp - most of the founding fathers did not believe in god, in fact were committed to logic and reason.

gazettfan: "If we see flaws and lies in the reasoning of other, we should address those things for the purpose of aiding our points of view."
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The flaws in reasoning and the lies should certainly be addressed, I'll give you that. But those flaws in reasoning don't automatically aide the other view point. You still have to use sound reasoning to aid your own point of view.

Bill - lets take the cliff warning a little further. If you are right I can look at eon after eons being tomented by your benevolent sacrifice requiring god (the cliff). According to Dr Talk he has given me free will - which I appreciate, but then he also won't provide a shred of empirical evidence. In fact he provides the bible - full of stories of how he would sluaghter women and children (Jerico among others) and expects me to worship him? How cruel is your god?

Poor Gazettefan, he decries the Catholic Church institutionalizing the rape of children yet he doesn't mind them being disected alive for his medical benefit. And he claims not to be a moral relativist.

Prounion, I'm just trying to help you keep from finding the evidence you seek the hard way, but if that's what you insist upon that is you free will choice to make. On the highway of life there are warning signs but no barricades, proceed with caution or proceed without it, beware the consequences or ignore them, even reject their existence, those are our choices to make.

deltafox:"So there it is folks, out of DrTalks mouth. No accountability, all you have to do is except Christ as your savior, and all will be forgiven, no matter how bad you are. Nice. Explains a lot about our current situation, doesn't it?"
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You only quoted part of what I wrote and in doing so you took them out of context. I clearly made 2 dictions: how to get into heaven and the level of reward you'll receive. By being forgiven you'll gain entrance into Heaven. But the level of reward you'll receive is based on your actions while here on earth. That's where the accountability comes in.

razorsharp, christians are naturally open to criticism because the basis of christianity and religion and belief in god is irrational. This irrationality is dangerous to people at large. To interfered with and to attempt to stop the teaching of evolution is barbaric. To interfere with and to attempt to prevent stem-cell research is also barbaric.

It would be nice if christianity was just off to side and you people just lived in your own little world, but that's not the case. You are harming and attempting to harm others.

deltafox: "Also, you have the impression that because I don't believe in Santa Clause, the easter bunny, or your god, that somehow I am less moral than you."
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I wouldn't say less moral. I'd say equally immoral. The only difference being is that you'll be forgiven after accepting Jesus Christ.
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"Your own bible condemns you for you judgment of me as a sin, stating that final judgement is his decision, no one elses."
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That Bible verse is talking about judging ourselves first before judging others. If we point out a particular sin of someone else when we are commiting the same sin, then, yes, that is wrong.
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"Again, enlighten me about this loophole that all you fanatical christians use to explain your way out of hatred for those different than you"
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We don't have a hatred of people; it's a hatred of sin. We love the people. We are to to love and respect others and show them kindness while at the same time let them know that we don't approve of what they are doing. We do that because we want them to spend eternity in Heaven with us.

buckyfan, thanks, I think. But are you reading the posts of some of the believers?!

DrTalk, then apparently I don't need that book. So why don't you recommend it to billnewbie? Uh oh, I think I just sent him on another ego-trip!

Back on point, DrTalk, there are a lot of things I'd like people to read. But do we want to just turn this forum into reading assignments? I don't. And I'm sure no one here is going to read a bunch of things other people recommend.

To me, we should bring to this site what we know directly and indirectly. We should express ourselves as clearly as possible. If we see flaws and lies in the reasoning of other, we should address those things for the purpose of aiding our points of view.

Well said Razorsharp!
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Some posters would lead you to believe that religion is the cause of this downturn.

"We are not held accountable for our sins, we are held accountable for our actions. The Bible says that we can't get to Heaven by doing good works. We get to Heaven by accepting Jesus Christ."
:
So there it is folks, out of DrTalks mouth. No accountability, all you have to do is except Christ as your savior, and all will be forgiven, no matter how bad you are. Nice. Explains a lot about our current situation, doesn't it?

Gazettefan, I really think you're funny. And I love how you make such inflammatory comments to get a rise out of anyone. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is entertained by your goading. You must also enjoy it immensely.

gazettefan,
The authors of the book that I mentioned, "Critcal Thinking", have a lot of the same view points that you do. That's why I recommended it to you. But like I said, even though I personally disagree with there viewpoints on political and social issues, what they say about logic and reason are factually accurate.

Billnewbie - as far as your cliff anology goes - you do understand that to us the cliff is either not there or invisable to us. So we ask for some logical reason why you see the cliff. In fact we research this historical cliff you mention and its clear that some folks made it up. In fact that the cliff legend is just a 2000 year old rehash of even older myths. Then we ask you again - you sure there isa a cliff? And you say have faith. Dude - there isn't a cliff, but I will still keep seeking some evidence of it.

Dr.Talk, after reading your bible blather, I have no reason to take reading assignments from you. If there is anything good in that book you're recommending it has obviously had no effect on you.

My criticisms here are a product of clear thinking.

Though I will give you credit for not being as insulting as billnewbie, whatthefuss, and some of the other believers.

I’m sure you noticed, DrTalk, that these skeptics all base their objections ultimately on the rejection of the sovereignty of God? They claim His judgment is capricious, His punishment cruel and His reason faulty while assuming their own is superior.
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The bible shows that those who populate hell insist on being there. God calls to them, implores them to reconsider, yet in spite of the warnings of the terrors that await, still they get would rather get in line to "rule in hell than serve in heaven", mocking the Christian concept of free will while exercising it to their own destruction.
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If a person walks near the edge of a cliff and I call out, ‘don’t be foolish, watch your step” an I being judgmental? Should I say nothing and simply raise my hands to heaven and say “only God can judge”? Similarly, if I call attention to sin, warning of its effects, am I being judgmental? Christians are called to be like lighthouses, warning of the shoals of sinfulness. But we are also like rescuers standing ready to aid any who find themselves upon those shoals. It’s true, some of us succumb to our basic human nature and condemn our fellow sinners which is wrong for us to do. But oftentimes what seems to be personal condemnation from without is actually one’s own conscience condemning from within. And it is our human nature to lash out any perceived source of condemnation without assessing its true source or whether that condemnation is just.

.

Darwin1, why do you think my friends are imaginary just because they are believers and scientists? You asked and I answered. Need more details?

One graduated from Chicago University with a degree in physics. Then he, the son of Jef Raskin (look up Jef and his son Asa) and two others created a user interface program that they then sold to Mozilla. Mozilla then offered jobs to the members of the team, but my Christian friend decided that he wanted to go do what he originally went to college for: rocket science.

Look up Humanized and check out the team members’ descriptions—I’m pretty sure you can figure out who I’m talking about (don’t let his claims about pretending to play the piano fool you. As a young child, he was sent to UW-Madison to learn under a professor because he was far beyond the abilities of teachers here). So, still think he’s imaginary?

By the way, his uncle is the stem cell scientist.

prounion,
"so god is not in control of the world?"
God can certainly control everything, but the world would be completely different if we had free will one minute but not the next.
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Is it because of the other gods that the biblical god was so jealous and angry about in the bible?"
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God is saddend by the fact that some people choose to worship other "gods" instead of Him. He created us to love and honor Him, but some chose to substitute Him with something else.
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Does god need to consolidate his power to have some battle with them before he can rule the world?
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I don't know that He's consolidating His power, but the battle he is preparing for is with Satan and the other fallen angels.

gazettefan:"your bible blather leaves you in no position to determine what clear thinking is"
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I already mentioned the book "Critical Thinking" by Moore and Parker. I suggest you read it.

prounion:"I wonder though when we start to go back in history a bit, about indian children that died in North America that never had a chance to even here about how god had a plan to redeem them, will they be right next to me burning and screaming in agony for all of eternity?"
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If someone has never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, there are other witnesses. God's creation bears witness:
""The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."
-Romans 1:18-22
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Your conscience will also be a witness.
http://www.reasonofthehope.com/2008/10/r...

whythefuss~ very well put. People like Darwin, gazettefan etc. know this is the correct perspective in looking at this, but, they're so intent on never being wrong that they are oblivious to everything else.

Ok DrTalk so god is not in control of the world? Is it because of the other gods that the biblical god was so jealous and angry about in the bible? Does god need to consolidate his power to have some battle with them before he can rule the world?

whythefuss, Dr.Talk, billnewbie, your bible blather leaves you in no position to determine what clear thinking is. You people are lonely, inarticulate, and paranoid by nature. And the morass of your religion accomidates your character problems. This is why you were drawn to it.

This is consistent with how the priesthood draws a certain personality type to the no-longer secret world of the institutionalized rape of children.

deltafox,
"Here is where my major problem with the christian religion. You speak out of both sides of you mouth with this statement. Your saying that you will be forgiven and pass to heaven, yet held accountable for your sins. How?"
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We are not held accountable for our sins, we are held accountable for our actions. The Bible says that we can't get to Heaven by doing good works. We get to Heaven by accepting Jesus Christ. And we do good works because we've been saved.
Part 1: We get to Heaven because we've been forgiven. After that comes Part 2: We have to give an account of our lives. If we did a good work but had the wrong motive, it doesn't count. This has to do with the level of reward that we'll receive. The Bible says nothing of 70 virgins or anything like that. We have absolutely no idea about what God has in store for us.
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"In 2 Corinthians 5:10, Paul gives the Corinthian church an illustration of the Bema Seat, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." Paul is teaching us that all Christians will stand before the Bema Seat of Christ. At the Bema Seat, Jesus Christ will bring to light every deed-good or bad-that each believer has done on earth since he or she became a Christian. Every Christian will be rewarded based on his words, deeds, and faithfulness."
http://www.allaboutgod.com/bema-seat.htm...

Darwin - I have a science major and also practice Christianity.
+
I really do get tired of the assumption that if you are a Christian you must be stupid or blindly following something that makes no sense.
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Can I explain everything in my faith-no-but I guess that is why they call it faith.
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Why is it that if you can't explain something it must not be true. Think of all the great discoveries of our time. Did electricity not exist before it was discovered? So why do you think this could be any different?

prounion: "Wait then why is he not responsible for all the suffering in the world? Is he not ultimatly responsible?"
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God did not cause the suffering, man did. Man is ultimately responsible.
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"As a secondary question - god can control what happens on earth - so why wait? Why not end the suffering now?"
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God can't control everything that happens here on earth. He is limited to what his nature allows him to do. He won't do anything that goes against his nature. He won't do anything that would cause a greater evil, like interfering with man's free will.

Actually Delta its believe or burn in hell for all of enternity, on and on forever and ever, burning and pain. Maybe I have it coming, I wonder though when we start to go back in history a bit, about indian children that died in North America that never had a chance to even here about how god had a plan to redeem them, will they be right next to me burning and screaming in agony for all of eternity? DrTalk thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, I am very interested inb your views on these issues.

only dr talk calls himself a dr because no one else will. What's your PhD in theology? Does any religious person have a degree in a science? Biology, chemistry, genetics?

Oh wait buckyfan has some imaginary scientist friends. They must hang out with the imaginary girlfriend I had in HS who was from another school in another state.

"I wouldn't say "punish the crap out of them." He did discipline them, but He gave them and everyone else a way to redeem themselves."

I think drowning everyone and everything on the entire planet except one family is indeed getting the crap punished out of you...
Oh, and the method of redeeming themselves is believe or die. Nice redemption system, so much for that whole free will argument that you have there, eh DrTalk?

"I get the impression that atheists think that once a person becomes a Christian they can automatically stop sinning. It's a growth process. I'm not saying I'm perfect; I'm saying I've been forgiven. It's only "one strike and you're out" if you haven't been forgiving. But being forgiven doesn't give you a license to sin. We'll get into heaven because we've been forgiven, but we'll still be held accountable for our actions."

Here is where my major problem with the christian religion. You speak out of both sides of you mouth with this statement. Your saying that you will be forgiven and pass to heaven, yet held accountable for your sins. How? Is there a time out corner in heaven for bad deeds that you have been forgiven for but still allowed in? Enlighten me please on this accountability that you speak of. Do you get a small house in heaven? Don't get the 30 virgins or whatever? Let me know...
Also, you have the impression that because I don't believe in Santa Clause, the easter bunny, or your god, that somehow I am less moral than you. Your own bible condemns you for you judgment of me as a sin, stating that final judgement is his decision, no one elses. Again, enlighten me about this loophole that all you fanatical christians use to explain your way out of hatred for those different than you (For Example: gays, atheists, Mormons, etc) and how you will ever be held accountable for you judgment of others.

I see gazettefan had gone even deeper into his dispair and the only thing he has remaining is to belittle those he disagrees with.
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Maybe he is the one who is cracking instead of the rest of us.

Dr-Talk ok I think I am starting to see. So god does know the whole time what is going to happen, it all goes according to his plan. Wait then why is he not responsible for all the suffering in the world? Is he not ultimatly responsible?

As a secondary question - god can control what happens on earth - so why wait? Why not end the suffering now?

prounion: "God can't see the future,"
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No, he can see the future
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"otherwise he would have known that the folks he just created would in turn create sin,
"
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Yes, he knew that they would disobey Him.
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"which after sin is created god goes nuts and punishes the crap out of them and the rest of the world,"
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I wouldn't say "punish the crap out of them." He did discipline them, but He gave them and everyone else a way to redeem themselves.
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"but doesn't take any responsibility at all for creating the circumstances and the people that generated the sin."
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God could have created automatons that did nothing other than what he wanted them to do. But he gave man free will - he gave them a choice. He wanted humans to choose to love him. Why should He take responsibility for giving us free will?
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"OK so his plan changes to a blood sacrifice based system where an individual can atone through blood for thier sin, but we don't know why this slakes god's hatred for the sin."
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I wouldn't say his plan changed. He knew they were going to disobey Him so He already knew how humans could restore their relationship with Him.
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"Then god decides that what he really needs to do is have a human die, or Jesus so he slaughters his own son to compensate for the sin that he had nothing to do with, created by Eve."
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God did not suddenly decide to sacrifice his Son. God talks about doing this in Genesis. I don't completely understand his timing for it, but it was His plan since the beginning.
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"But we don't go back to the paradise situation"
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Someday the world will be restored back to the way it was originally created. It's all in God's timing.
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"there is still a ton of misery and sin int he world, just god is better able to tolerate it now that he slaughtered his son,"
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Yes, there still is sin in the world. I wouldn't say God tolerates it, but He wants people to know the sacrifice He made for them (side note: Jesus is God in the flesh) to show how much He loves them.
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"now he just needs wafers and wine, or grape juice in some denominations."
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Communion just serves as a reminder for what God did. Sometimes Christians get complacent and need to remember what He did.

Dr.Talk - please don't forget about me , I am trying to understand your views.

gazettefan: "darius, I'm writing very clear statements"
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No, your statements are not clear. Take this one for example:"They want to take the false moral highground by interfering with something that would relieve the untold suffering of millions of people -stem cell research."
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Just saying stem cell research is not clear, it's vague. Do you understand the difference between adult stem cells and embryonic stem cells? You should clarify which one you are talking about. Let's say that you do clarify your statement and say that Christians are against embryonic stem cell research. Even that is not accurate. We're against the destruction of embryos to get the embryonic stem cells. We have no problem if you want to get embryonic stem cells from umbilical cord blood.
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I highly recommend that you read "Critical Thinking" by Moore and Parker. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the you'll agree with their political and social positions. While I disagree with them on those issues, I will say that what they about logic and reason is factual accurate.

Dr Talk - let me sum up if I could - God can't see the future, otherwise he would have known that the folks he just created would in turn create sin, which after sin is created god goes nuts and punishes the crap out of them and the rest of the world, but doesn't take any responsibility at all for creating the circumstances and the people that generated the sin.
OK so his plan changes to a blood sacrifice based system where an individual can atone through blood for thier sin, but we don't know why this slakes god's hatred for the sin. Then god decides that what he really needs to do is have a human die, or Jesus so he slaughters his own son to compensate for the sin that he had nothing to do with, created by Eve. But we don't go back to the paradise situation there is still a ton of misery and sin int he world, just god is better able to tolerate it now that he slaughtered his son, now he just needs wafers and wine, or grape juice in some denominations. Is this an accurate representation?

Accusing people you don't agree with of being drunk, intellectually stunted and evil are examples of clear thinking? Oh yes, Gazettefan, your blinders are secure and working properly.

darius, I'm writing very clear statements. Maybe you're intoxicated or high on something. Or maybe you're a classic case of someone whose intellect has been stunted by religiosity. Everything that benefits you comes from people who don't think the way you think.

All the negative societal things that you are complaining about are a result of religion's and believers' failure to deal with modern life. Your time is over. The age of clear and free thinking is beginning. The damage that religion and believers have done will be repaired.

Go pray and excite yourself but don't pester the rest of us with it!

gazettefan, are you by chance on prescription medication? If not, what are you taking?

More cynical quips, Gazettefan? Your blinders must be so comforting.

Dr.Talk, listen to yourself.

billnewbie, your ego trip continues.

thekid, you're right. The graven image of JC is on packs of Zig Zag rolling papers!

It's gratifying to have engraved my name so deeply into Gazettefan's consciousness.
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I have a headline for your next addition Mr. Angus, "Gazettfan and Darwin1 condemn and despise Billnewbie". Ok, I know, that's not news, never mind.
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It's true, I advocate for Christianity and against atheism, but I am also an advocate of free will, so those who claim that I am trying to force anything on anyone may be sincere, but they are sincerely wrong. Powerful persuasion may seem like force, but it is only force of argument, a force that one can resist without penalty, other than the risk one takes with his own soul. But perhaps their feelings are the result of their own cynicism. Cynicism to the cynical is like blinders to a horse. It keeps them on the path they want to follow while precluding the possibility of being distracted by possibilities they don't want to consider. Contradictory information stings like a whip and causes the cynic to attack in anger, despising the source of the sting.

gazettefan: "OK, Janesburg, you are not aligned with the likes of people who have crazy ideas about non-believers and you don't oppose evolution and stem cell research based on scripture and after-market doctrine."
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Again with the same misleading statements. See my April 8th, 5:24pm post.

sorry prounion, let me answer your question: "Dr. Talk why did there need to be an ultimate sacrifice, and as a secondary question why would god need to foreshadow it with all the blood of animals leading up to it?"
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The need for an ultimate sacrifice, Jesus Christ, was to atone for ALL sin. In the Old Testament, each person had to make sacrifices for their own sin. As far as to the acutal WHY for this method, I don't have any other answer other than what's mentioned in the Bible: Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

Dr.Talk - if you have a sec could you follow up on my follow up questions regarding god's desire for blood?

'Jesus was sent to heal, bring together, love and teach compassion' with long hair, beard, and sandles. jc was a hippie:)

OK, Janesburg, you are not aligned with the likes of people who have crazy ideas about non-believers and you don't oppose evolution and stem cell research based on scripture and after-market doctrine.

The people I'm talking about here are billnewbie, DrTalk, lovestocrap, and some others. The trouble is: they don't you seriously as a christian.

deltafox,
"You are fully aware of consequences of your actions, but yet I would wager that you still do things that are wrong, illegal, or "sinful". I find it fascinating that your fair and loving god gives you only one strike and your out."
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I get the impression that atheists think that once a person becomes a Christian they can automatically stop sinning. It's a growth process. I'm not saying I'm perfect; I'm saying I've been forgiven. It's only "one strike and you're out" if you haven't been forgiving. But being forgiven doesn't give you a license to sin. We'll get into heaven because we've been forgiven, but we'll still be held accountable for our actions. http://www.allaboutgod.com/bema-seat.htm...

Just want to make a clarification about Einstein. I have never said he was a Christian. In fact, he said throughout his life that he didn't believe in a personal god.

But from the writings from both the sites I linked in previous posts, he did believe in something greater that created the universe.

"The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres."

Gazettefan - there are open minded individuals like myself who identify themselves as Christians. Being a Christian doesn't mean I oppose the teaching of evolution. Being a Christian doesn't mean I condemn others for having differing beliefs. Jesus was sent to heal, bring together, love and teach compassion. So anyone who truly believes in Christ should try to embody those same qualities.

gazettefan:"Janesburg, they stoop to tell lies like Einstein and Darwin became religious before they died."
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That's a generalization fallacy. I don't believe that either one of them became religious before they died.

gazettefan:"And they brought all the current heat on them now because they want to damage the minds of children with barbaric opposition to the theory of evolution."
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As I said before, evolution has many different meanings. If you mean micro-evolution, then there's no objection. Please define what you mean.

"They want to take the false moral highground by interfering with something that would relieve the untold suffering of millions of people -stem cell research."
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That's a straw man argument. We have absolutely no objection to ADULT stem cell research which has been proven effective. There's no evidence that EMBRYONIC stem cell research has relieved suffering.

wait...god wrote the bible?? i wonder if theres an autographed copy on amazon....

"...they were full grown adults with the capability to walk, talk, and think. They understood what God meant when He told them not to eat of the tree in the midst of the garden. They were fully aware of what the consequences would be if they did."
Uh, you talking about adults that were how old? They were not adults in maturity if they were just created by god a few days, weeks, or months before the "forbidden fruit" incident. You are fully aware of consequences of your actions, but yet I would wager that you still do things that are wrong, illegal, or "sinful". I find it fascinating that your fair and loving god gives you only one strike and your out. I like to use the parallel of how parents treat children, because the bible often refers to humanity as god's children. So with that logic, why would god act like such a horrible parent? He is god after all. To quote the bible, "God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth..." Bible says god is the father almighty, that would make us...yes, children! And that proves my point...yet again.

Janesburg, they stoop to tell lies like Einstein and Darwin became religious before they died.

And by the way, they believe in virgin birth and all that trinity stuff. That whole mess has been getting a free pass for far to long. It's no different than that stuff on overnight radio: preaching about ET visits, ghosts, parallel universes, time travel, etc. It's all the same. On this forum they have to deal with how most people really think about this stuff. And how do they deal with it, they lie.

And they brought all the current heat on them now because they want to damage the minds of children with barbaric opposition to the theory of evolution. They want to take the false moral highground by interfering with something that would relieve the untold suffering of millions of people -stem cell research.

They get no free pass here. Look at what Dr.Talk is saying. Wow!!!

GazetteFan: Believers are pathological liars? How completely closed minded and ridiculous. It's good to see that whack jobs are alive and well on both sides of the argument.

Dr. Talk why did there need to be an ultimate sacrifice, and as a secondary question why would god need to foreshadow it with all the blood of animals leading up to it?

Dr.Talk:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

More on Einstein. Fascinating stuff:
http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/index...

prounion:"ok so if god wrote the bible and if ID theory is true he designed the universe - what's up with the blood, why does god need blood and sacrifice?"
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The animal sacrifices in the Old Testament were symbolic of the ultimate sacrifice that would eventually take place. Today those symbols are bread and wine (or wafers and grape juice depending on the denomination).

deltafox: "The child's reaction is irrelevant because he is a child. Children are to be taught right from wrong, not given free will to do as they please, then punish them when the don't fit into your "plan""
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You bring up a good point. I have to point out that Adam and Eve were not created as children - they were full grown adults with the capability to walk, talk, and think. They understood what God meant when He told them not to eat of the tree in the midst of the garden. They were fully aware of what the consequences would be if they did.

"Yes, you are using the term scientist very very loosely. You are really referring to technicians not scientists. Scientists carry out experiments."

Darwin1, all of the folks I'm referring to carry out experiments, publish papers, etc.

If you are hoping to claim as fact that no completely rational person can also be religious, you will lose that battle and damage your credibility in the process. Besides, no one could ever PROVE that negative assertion, so just drop it, please. Stick to keeping the beholders responsible for their positive assertions. Thanks.

"Oh the times, they are ah-changin'."

"Christians and those who identify with what we label 'the religious right' are not necessarily the same people."
Janesburg, that is what my point was in my first post on this article. Your religion has been hijacked by fundamentalists that don't have your best interests in mind. And if you question those fundamentalist's motivations, then you are a god-less, America hating, baby aborting, troop despising, unpatriotic, liberal atheist democrat.

Thanks, prounion, I posted that quote a few times on other blogs here. Einstein said it not to long before he died.

Believers are pathological liars. This comes from the fact that somewhere inside they know they are promoting the biggest of all lies.

Re: The religiosity of Albert Einstein:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=...

This needs to be clearly stated: Christians and those who identify with what we label 'the religious right' are not necessarily the same people. Please don't let a few very outspoken people taint the way you look at all Christians. There are tons of enlightened Christians who do not force their beliefs on others. I think the world would be a much better place if more Christians realized that Jesus taught lessons of tolerance that still hold true today.

The god in the Book of Job (who, by the way, is billnewbie's god) killed Job's ten children and tortured Job mercilessly. God this to prove to satan and Job that he was all-powerful.

Notice billnewbie provides Darwin's quotations but not Darwin's observations and the evidence in support of his theory. Just as Einstein and Newton were not completely accurate with their theories neither was Darwin. Yet, the predictive nature of his theories have proven to be accurate time and time again. What exactly has the bible been able to predict?

It seems billnewbie might want to spend more time reading about science and less time thinking about what atheists are thinking.
Billnewbies arguments are contradictory. He says we say god is tyrannical and then says we think Christians are simplistic and then says these contradict each other. How? They are two separate comments about two separate subjects. If I say apples are red and oranges are orange the two statements don't contradict each other. And where exactly does billnewbie get his understanding of human nature? If we are all rebels at heart then why do so many people follow someone as stupid as Rush Limbaugh (drug addict and doesn't know the difference between the preamble and the declaration) and are proud of it?

Yes, you are using the term scientist very very loosely. You are really referring to technicians not scientists. Scientists carry out experiments.

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954, The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press)

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

billnewbie, you are confused. How can I hate something that doesn't exist? If god did exist, he probably wouldn't appreciate your deflecting someone's feelings about you toward him.

Not that I hate you, it's probably more like despise. Especially because you are in favor of abusing the educational experience of children. That's what Sunday school teachers do when they subvert the need of children to learn how nature works.

"What's the child's reaction? Did he curse his parents and say "good riddance" or did he admit that what he did was wrong and ask for forgiveness?"
The child's reaction is irrelevant because he is a child. Children are to be taught right from wrong, not given free will to do as they please, then punish them when the don't fit into your "plan". Again, what you are saying is you put two bowls of ice cream in front of a child and tell him to eat. He chooses the chocolate ice cream and you damn him to hell for eternity because your plan was for him to eat the vanilla ice cream. Sounds like a petulant 3 year olds reaction.
"You're assuming that God is all powerful."
Then your assuming that the big bad almighty gods plan was completely ruined by one man and one woman. This is laughable. This god has the power to create EVERYTHING in 7 days, but can't control the behavior of his children, that he created in his image? Why does one statement that you make contradict the next?

Yes, buckyfan, it's a lie. Why don't you go through the trouble of finding out who said it? Was it someone who worked for Time or did someone from Time merely print what someone said?

Thanks Dr.Talk, unfortunatly when big groups of monotheists get together, it rarely ends well. Try this book by Stark: One True God: Historical Consequence of Monotheism. It just reviews historically what happens when a theocracy takes over, ends up regardless of which religion takes power, they tend to eliminate the competion.

Dr Talk - ok so if god wrote the bible and if ID theory is true he designed the universe - what's up with the blood, why does god need blood and sacrifice?

prounion:"To you I will burn in hell forever in a few years, while you delight in heaven forever, so really what harm is there if you kill me in a crusade or incedentally when battling with another monotheism?"
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We don't want you to burn in hell. It would be a tragedy if you died before you had a chance to repent. We are not "forcing our beliefs" on you as many people claim. We're simply defending our faith. It's up to you to make a choice.

prounion:"Why is god so obsessed with blood and blood sacrifice? I mean why would god sacrifice his son in a very painful bloody way because of sin? Sin that we - according to you were totally at fault for and that god had nothing to do with. Also why would such a gruesome death be required, especially if god dictated the rules of the universe?"
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I know you probably won't like this answer,but here it goes: Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sin. (Hebrews 9:22) That's why they sacrificed animals in the old testament. But Christ's shed blood on the cross paid for everyone's sin. Hence no more need for animal scarifies.

Billnewbie - you are getting close to the reason why I for one am terrified of christians, especially in large numbers, when you speculate about you being a different species than me. To you I will burn in hell forever in a few years, while you delight in heaven forever, so really what harm is there if you kill me in a crusade or incedentally when battling with another monotheism?

billnewbie, the crux of the ineptitude is based on the premise that crepes flatus is frought with gravitas and crespy beyond gorge masco.

Fool_on_the_hill, if the atheists are going to hold up Darwin as an authority, then his own words and frailties are fair game for analysis. Here's yet another quote from Sir Charles that seems so relevant to the concept of reality you mentioned. "With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would anyone trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind?" Indeed that brings to mind Plantinga's Argument which has been harshly criticized but still brings some very interesting philosophical questions to bear against the wishful and whimsical thinking of the atheistic humanists. C.S. Lewis had developed a similar argument when he wrote "no thought is valid if it can be fully explained as the result of irrational causes," and "every theory of the universe which makes the human mind as a result of irrational causes is inadmissible, [and] Naturalism, as commonly held, is precisely a theory of this sort". The point being that if we are the result of random evolution, and our reasoning powers the result of the random arrangement of atoms, then nothing that reasoning perceives is trustworthy as Darwin feared. But since our reasoning does seem to have some reliability, when unaffected by wishful thinking, then chance must not be responsible for it and therefore there must be a Designer, a Creator, God.
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My assessment of the motivations of most atheists seem very accurate to me. They despise the very idea of a sovereign God (and His restrictions on their behavior) as Gazettefan continually proves time and time again and that is why they both hate Him and reject Him, an interesting paradox.
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There is another interesting paradox in the atheist’s arguments about the motivations of Christians. On one hand they call God a tyrant, accusing Him of evil intent and capricious acts towards even his subjects. On the other hand they characterize Christians as simplistic wishful thinkers who need that God to calm their fears. They interchange the 2 arguments while seemingly oblivious to the contradiction.
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In response to the charge that Christians suffer from wishful thinking I wonder, are we from some different species that atheists? They may euphemistically say so but in fact, we are all humans with the same motivations. None of us wants to submit to a sovereign God. We are all rebels at heart. To be a Christian is to accept the humiliating proposition that I need God’s forgiveness and salvation, hardly an act of wishful thinking. But that is what drives the desires of atheists to want to believe there is no God rather than to face that kind of submission which is antithetical to the natural human.

So Time magazine is lying?

That's a lie about Einstein. Some believers made it up. They did the same thing with Darwin.

It's just more lies from believers, they make me sick, I wish there was a hell they could burn in!!!

By the way, because Einstein was born a jew and never became a christian, christianity and christians condemn him to eternal suffering in hell based on that alone. But christians are adept at torturing jews, aren't they.

Darwin1, I know of two people off the top of my head who are conservative Christians and scientists: one is a rocket scientist/physicist and the other studies stem cells (not embryonic stem cells).

While the word "science" is not mentioned in the Bible, Solomon's proverbs show his study of wildlife.

Interesting article on Albert Einstein, who was not a Christian but came to believe in a "God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists":
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articl...

Dr.Talk - next question. Why is god so obsessed with blood and blood sacrifice? I mean why would god sacrifice his son in a very painful bloody way because of sin? Sin that we - according to you were totally at fault for and that god had nothing to do with. Also why would such a gruesome death be required, especially if god dictated the rules of the universe?

OK, darwin1, now I'll assume you are talking to me.

I'm using the term "scientist" loosely. They could be engineers or folks with PhDs in math, chemistry, etc. What I am saying is they are perfectly rational thinkers who also happen to hold deeply religious beliefs. I have no idea how they are able reconcile what they believe and what they know within their own minds.

What scientists? Are these scientists, like the evidence about god existing that I hear about but never ever see? How exactly do you believe in science? There is no mention of it in the bible.

There are many things a divine god can't do: have courage, doubt, sacrifice himself instead of us, get his a-- off the couch and clean up his mess and tell priests to stop raping children.

fool_on_the_hill,
I think darwin1 is talking to me since I made that comment. But his comment to me "Your(sic) already there" is just his opinion.

"Reality as we know it would be out of whack.
Your already there." -- Darwin1

Are you talkin' to me?

Reality as we know it would be out of whack.
Your already there.

I have known many bright scientists who are believers, Darwin1. I found that to be very troubling until I learned to segment faith and reason into their own, separate realms. Now that presents no problem for me.

deltafox:"So is god some sort of absentee parent with out any sort of power?"
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You're assuming that God is all powerful. In fact, there are things that God cannot do: He can't sin, He can't learn because he already knows everything. He won't do anything that goes against His nature. He also won't do anything if it will cause a greater evil or a lesser good. Interfering with our free will is a greater evil. How would things be if we had free will one minute but not the next? Reality as we know it would be out of whack.
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"God's actions in Genesis are equal to your child ridding a bike that he wasn't supposed to, and you throwing him out of your house forever, when he fell off that bike and bruised his knee."
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What's the child's reaction? Did he curse his parents and say "good riddance" or did he admit that what he did was wrong and ask for forgiveness?

Morality is derived from the ability to empathize with other people and not from the bible or some imaginary god. Considering god's rather erratic behavior and violent tendencies it would explain why so many religious people are violent hate mongers. The people who show up at military funerals and say that they deserved to die because god hates American because we love gay people aren't atheists are they? Their great sense of morality also came from god and the bible. How do you explain it?

I would like to know how many of the pro-bible people have degrees in any of the sciences?

"Faith is the evidence of things unseen." --DrTalk.

I see we two have polar opposite definitions for the word "evidence". Things fitting my definition of evidence would be admissible in a court of law.

On the other topic, I wonder why I'd never heard of the "divinely guided metamorphosis" explanation before? That sounds eerily similar to "evolution", wouldn't you agree? (Causality notwithstanding, of course.)

"Man brought misery into the world by disobeying God."
So is god some sort of absentee parent with out any sort of power? When a child disobeys his parent, a good parent will correct his child. Why did god just sit on his hands and wait for the chaos to ensue? He is god right? Why didn't he just give Adam and Eve a time out, and explain what they did was wrong, and have them learn from their mistakes? Why did god act like a petulant 3 year old and throw a hissy fit and eject them from the garden of eden? If gods plan was truly interrupted by Adam and Eve's actions, why did he just become a spectator that punished extreme behavior from time to time? Why didn't he do as a rational parent would do? God's actions in Genesis are equal to your child ridding a bike that he wasn't supposed to, and you throwing him out of your house forever, when he fell off that bike and bruised his knee.

justsaynotomath,
"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."
- Straw man argument
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."
- Not true. There's plenty of evidence. Richard Dawkins just has a different interpretation of the evidence.

I feel bad for the Republican party. Seriously. The extreme christian right has hijacked a party of well meaning principles and social conservatism, and contorted it into something perverted and twisted. They have controlled the argument so well, that in daily dialect, Conservatism is identified with christianity. Republicans sold their soul to the extreme right, in return they got their votes. Now, they have no clear direction in their message or party. Just like what happens when you get a bunch of christians to try to agree what version of their religion they are going to follow. The problem is that once the christians obtained power, their own selfishness and infighting stymied a perfect opportunity to unify and lead.

Faith is the evidence of things unseen.

fool_on_the_hill,
Given the context in which the phrase "divinely guided metamorphosis" was used, I would have to agree. The species we see today are just variations of the kind that were on the ark.

prounion:"Is that why he had - using your word an "original" plan, and then had to change it to his current one which included unleashing all the misery in the world today?"
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God did not change his plan. Man altered the way God intended him to live. God did not unleash misery into the world. Man brought misery into the world by disobeying God.

...in the interim, thanks Gfan and Kid for your spontaneous injections of sardonic humor. ("its like tigers playing with a dead rabbit") LOL This could be drudgery without it.

Faith fills the void of that not yet known.

Billnewbie, I am deeply disappointed and saddened. I had only recently been thinking to myself what a wise, consistent and clear thinking example you provide for bible students. Then you have to go step outside of your field of expertise and make a liar out of me.

When you unwisely attempt to characterize atheist epistemology, you are doing exactly the same thing you so harshly criticize Gazettefan for doing to Christians.

There is ever only one truth. Reality is the final arbiter.

prounion, thekid, foolonthehill, the opposition are frantically dialing their gurus!!!

DrTalk, I got "divinely guided metamorphosis" from your first link, excerpted:

"Kircher, a Jesuit priest and scholar, concluded from his research that some of our modern species of animals were not on Noah’s Ark because they originated from other species after the Flood by a kind of divinely guided metamorphosis."

So, if you've no objection, I'll stick with that for the creationist's summary as it appears to be contextually consistent. Thanks for the info.

However, that second link was a pathetic attempt to debate evolution with denial, false statements, circular logic and straw man arguments.

Now might be a good time to express my extreme annoyance with the creationist tendency to discredit evolution by pointing out the fact that Darwin was not omniscient. That is a little like trying to discredit gravity because Newton failed to explain its cause. Please find a new argument for your case, people.

Indeed - where is Dr.Talk? He almost had me converted. I am eager for him to clarify his previous statements by answering my last question.

billnewbie, a little humor, that's encouraging.

As for illicit pleasure, that's why you're a believer, your mentality allows you to take pleasure from a fantasy. Even if it does make you feel good, it is not proof that it's true, it's the placebo power of wishful thinking.

The downside is that it shuts down your intellect. Your pleasure is illicit because its unearned. Earned pleasured comes from making the intellectual effort to understand human life and the universe.

Where's Dr.Talk? I hope he's laying down with a cold rag on his forehead.

By popular demand, Herrreeee's billnewbie!!!!!(It's so good to be popular!)
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Fool_on_the_hill, that " immense pleasure and sense of well-being that comes from a commitment to truth-seeking" is especially reinforced when one seeks and acknowledges only the truth that makes one feel good which is the soul of atheistic humanism as is illustrated in their efforts to eliminate guilt by rejecting God, the ultimate Judge. If there is no sovereign God, there is no sin, no morality and no need to face what one really is, a sinner.
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All that baloney that Gazettefan spews about morality being the result of evolved animal instinct was shown to be a sham long ago when Charles Darwin's co-discoverer of evolution, Alfred Russel Wallace, wrote Darwin to say that evolution could not account for man’s moral and spiritual nature. Darwin like Gazettefan, reacted like a finger on a hot stove as he accused Wallace of jeopardizing the whole theory, as if to say “Shhhh, you’re gonna blow it”.

Dr.Talk awaits the help of billnewbie and his faithful eskimo companion.

OK Dr Talk. God did not create sin. But he is all knowing right? So when he created Satan and Eve and the tree that bore the banned fruit was he suprised at the outcome? Is that why he had - using your word an "original" plan, and then had to change it to his current one which included unleashing all the misery in the world today?

thekid, did Dr.Talk get into your stash?!!! Wait, I take that back, even I wouldn't say the demon-weed would make anyone talk like Dr.Talk is talking now. ;~)

"So, the executive summary is, "divinely guided metamorphosis", DrTalk?"
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No, they are not metamorphing. To use your word, they would be evolving. I'd say they are a variation of the same kind of animal. Try this article:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/are...

its like tigers playing with a dead rabbit...;)

prounion:"Or did he see it coming and created death and evil?"
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He saw it coming but did not create death or evil. Death came by sin (Romans 5:12). God gave angels free will just as he gave free will to humans. Satan tempting eve in the Garden of Eden is when evil started.

Dr. Talk said: "I have never heard a Christian say that death is "God's will." The Bible teaches that death came as a result of man's sin. Death was not part of God's original plan."

Really interested in your answer here Dr.Talk -
So God didn't see that coming huh? Or did he see it coming and created death and evil?

So, the executive summary is, "divinely guided metamorphosis", DrTalk?

Dr.Talk, you brought the consolation thing up. And to just copy what I said is childish. You Dr.Talked yourself into a corner! ;~)

It makes sense to not tell a survivor that death is a natural part of life. But your idea of death is from god and the bible, so why wouldn't you use it for consolation?: Answer: Because such a statement is cruel and stupid. And that's the problem, your belief is based on the cruelty and stupidity of the bible.

Why no answer to this question? It deals with death and the afterlife, subjects important to you here:

Do you give messages to friends and family members who have terminal illnesses to carry on to friends and family members who have previously died? If not, why not?

fool_on_the_hill,
Noah would not have taken 2 great danes, 2 poodles, 2 grey wolves, 2 red wolves, 2 coyotes, 2 dingos, etc... He would have taken just 2 canines.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...

Dr. Talk: "I have never heard a Christian say that death is "God's will." The Bible teaches that death came as a result of man's sin. Death was not part of God's original plan."

So God didn't see that coming huh? Or did he see it coming and created death and evil?

Noah did not have "100,000,000 pairs of species" on the ark. He took 2 of every KIND. -DrTalk.

Now I'm even more confused. Do you have another link?

darwin1:"Although, I understand that your standard of what is scientific is rather low, science requires empirical investigation and experimentation. In other words, they weren't scientists, any more than your are."
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So because the scientists of that time believed that sun revolved around the earth, your response is to blame the Christians that went along with it?
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I understand science perfectly. So did the God-fearing Copernicus who corrected the so-called scientists of that time.

gazettefan,
you asked "How does your "death as a result of sin" console anyone?"
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I will answer the same way you did: What I said about death is the truth. That doesn't mean I'd say it to someone who suffered a loss.

fool_on_the_hill,
Noah did not have "100,000,000 pairs of species" on the ark. He took 2 of every KIND.

fool_on_the_hill,
Excellent question! Genesis 1:29-30 tells us that all humans and animals were vegetarian originally. When animals were on the ark, they wouldn't have eaten each other. God gave humans and animals the OK to eat meat shortly after flood. Genesis 9:2-3

Dr Talk, that is exactly what it means. Do you think natural phenomenon happen to some biological organisms and not others? Does gravity work on animals and not humans? And unless your more than just a Dr of talking your insightful analysis of one transitional fossil would seem to be violating your own generalization fallacy. Also, with recent archeological evidence it seems that birds may have evolved into Dinosaurs and not the other way around. You see this is how science works. Science changes based on the facts that we have available to us. It isn't perfect.

"Study your history. The church just went along with what the scientists of the day believed."
Although, I understand that your standard of what is scientific is rather low, science requires empirical investigation and experimentation. In other words, they weren't scientists, any more than your are.

Also, you sent me to a site that quotes the Bible for the origins of birds. When you get sick do you, like a hypocrite, go to the empirically driven Doctor or do you actually have faith and pray to god to get better or seek treatment through the bible? I am sure you have some faith loophole that allows you to seek a Doctor. And if that is true isn't your faith meaningless if their is no risk in it?

Dr.Talk, your idea about evolution is nonsense. You are a part of the crew who are just making things up. That nonsense is abusive toward children.

What I said about dying is the truth. That doesn't mean I'd say it to someone who suffered a loss. There is no point in pointing out that death is a natural part of life at a time like that. I already told you how I respond to death. That little dialogue you have going on in your head has been frustrated and has nothing to do with me.

How does your "death as a result of sin" console anyone? If this is a vital teaching of the bible why wouldn't you say it to someone who suffered a loss? I mean, it's in the bible and god's will and all. Do you tell people that their loved one was lost due to sin?

Again, do you give messages to a friends and family members who have terminal illnesses to carry on to friends and family members who have previously died. If not, why not?

DrTalk, I've always wondered... how DID Noah host over 100,000,000 pairs of species for six weeks on a 150-foot boat and keep them from them eating each other?

gazettefan: "Death has a purpose. Individuals die to make way for newer more vital generations. This is an adaptive mechanism that enhances the survival of the species."
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Is that what you would tell someone who lossed a loved one? It's not very comforting.
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"That stultification shows itself in the need for believers to contrive the non-sense of creationism and I.D. for the purpose of remaning ignorant of evolution."
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Again, you claim that Christians reject evolution. But that would depend on your meaning of evolution. Do you mean micro-evolution, chemical evolution, cosmic evolution, or everything in the whole theory of evolution? We don't disagree scientific evidence, we just disagree with the your interpretation of the evidence. Yes, there are small changes in species over time. Does that mean everything has a common ancestor? No, it doesn't.

"Genuine pleasure comes from knowing the truth; false pleasure comes from choosing to be ignorant." - Gazettefan.

<high five>

The immense pleasure and sense of well-being that comes from a commitment to truth-seeking is something that cannot be understated.

(I felt compelled to extract that quote out of context. Carry on...)

Dr.Talk, whether someone says or believes human death is a result of sin ("otherwise god wouldn't have permitted death"), they are regarding something very important falsely.

Death has a purpose. Individuals die to make way for newer more vital generations. This is an adaptive mechanism that enhances the survival of the species.

And you continue to harp on the stereotype that non-believers can attribute no meaning to life. Beyond the basics, life is full of meaning when someone is a free thinker and not fettered by the anti-educational stultification that religious belief causes. That stultification shows itself in the need for believers to contrive the non-sense of creationism and I.D. for the purpose of remaning ignorant of evolution.

You have yet to feel the transcendent, liberating pleasure of the monumental thinking that developed the theory of evolution. Maybe someday you will. Genuine pleasure comes from knowing the truth; false pleasure comes from choosing to be ignorant.

Lose the fear of death that compels you to require the ridiculous belief in a ridiculous afterlife. Courage feels good.

gazettfan,
I have never heard a Christian say that death is "God's will." The Bible teaches that death came as a result of man's sin. Death was not part of God's original plan.
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You have your reasons for despising Christianity. You might even consider them good reasons. But there is a difference between good reasons and good reasoning. Let's say that you actually heard a Christian say that death was God's will and that's one of your reasons for rejecting Christianity. But if you assume that all Christians believe that death is God's will, then your good reasoning skills are lacking because that is a hasty generalization fallacy. Likewise, I could take something one atheist said and attribute that to all atheist and that would be a generalization fallacy. Now, I have heard one atheist say that we end up becoming worm food when talking about death, but I did not assume that you would answer the same way. That's why I asked you how you would console someone. In fact, your response is that same response that I've seen from Christians at funerals, but somehow you managed to attend a funeral where that didn't occur.

darwin1,
Transitional fossils? What, like Archaeopteryx? Sorry, it's just a bird. Nothing more, nothing less.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...

darwin1: "Did the story of the sun revolving around earth become true because the church repeated it over and over again - no it didn't."
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Study your history. The church just went along with what the scientists of the day believed.

gazettefan,
You clearly have a wrong view of Christianity. I could have said give a sarcastic answer and said that atheists will try to console someone by saying something like "Well, you see..we're all here by random chance and there is no purpose to life. Life stinks and then you die. You're friend is just worm food now." But even I didn't peg atheists as being as cruel as you claim Christians to be.
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crafty, you don't have a clue. The bad that's going on now directly stems from religion: shootings are an irrational fear of outsiders, such fear is the psychotic dynamic of religion. And what's going on now is proof of the invalidity of religion; religion is a primitive mentality that is ill-equipped to deal with modern life. What's going on now is proof that religion is a false basis for dealing with human life.

That fear you feel is the fear of what you are. Have the courage to face what you are and embrace life for what it is: a challenge that you should not shirk; a challenge that shouldn't have you running to the degrading safety of a dangerous fairy tale.

Repetition of the same fictional story over and over again doesn't prove its true. Did the story of the sun revolving around earth become true because the church repeated it over and over again - no it didn't. You have no body. You have no physical evidence of any kind. Unlike evolution which has mounds of physical evidence, transitional fossils and a proven track record of empirical investigation and discovery. What is your standard of evidence? How do you distinguish between a natural phenomenon you don't understand and an act of god? You do understand that thunder is not angels bowling?

rite billnewbie. i did state 'i have a question for you bible experts' i then, crazy as it sounds, followed that up WITH MY QUESTION 'wanted to know if any of you think these mean your god/jesus is pro-hemp??'

I beg to differ. I think the reason we are seeing more "school shooting" type scenarios, where people are offing dozens then themselves, is because they are taught they are just animals. There are no divine consequences.

crafty, those kids end up with a clear, verifiable understanding of life on this planet. Their heads aren't filled with superstition that celebrates ignorance.

People tend to be naturally good because we evolved by a humanistic process that promotes cooperation.

thekid, you're on to billnewbie and his malarkey. And just to be safe, wear a lightening rod on your head for a while. ;~)

Dr.Talk, at someone's loss we voice our regrets and speak highly of the deceased and we are helpful in any way we can be helpful. We don't say cruel, disturbing things like your family member or friend died because it was "god's will." What the hell did you think we do!!!

By the way, Dr.Talk, when a friend or family member has a terminal disease do you give him or her messages for friends and family who have already died? If not, why not?

billnewbie, when people today act like the people in the bible they are imprisoned or committed to mental wards, speak to that reality!

Say God does not exist. Does the Evolution Theory being taught to our kids do better than Christianity when it comes to our kids' morals?

Another thing, Darwin1, me thinks you are very young. You have a very long way to go in your debating abilities.

Darwin1, you definitely can prove that Jesus existed. There is so much written documentation from so many sources, it's undeniable that a man named Jesus lived. That documentation includes the tortuous deaths of many of the disciples who followed him and preached of him after his death.

What is more difficult to prove is who Jesus said he is.

Also, I'd like you to answer these questions: Can you disprove who Jesus said he is? Can you disprove God?

fool_on_the_hill,
No, it was not a rhetorical question. I'm asking that in all sincerity. Gazettefan thinks Christianity does not console the friends and family of those that have died. So I'm just curious as to what an atheist would say.

Back on topic...

"Put another way, Christians may have no place in the political fray of dealmaking. That doesn’t mean one disengages from political life, but it might mean that the church shouldn’t be a branch of the Republican Party. It might mean trading fame and fortune (green rooms and fundraisers) for humility and charity."

This is very illuminating to me. I always felt that by claiming moral superiority (through the church), the Republican Party would begin to alienate a lot of non-religious people.

Darwin1, I suggest you enroll in a remedial world history class at your earliest convienience.

I must be right on the mark Gazettefan, that's why you would like to redirect the discussion.

Kid you should proof read your own posts. You wrote "I have a question for you bible experts", not "you believers". Now what would be the point of asking "bible experts" anything if you weren't seeking answers about what's written in the bible? And it is obvious that your question was deceptive particularly since you seem so happy with your own bizarre contentions.

"So how do atheists try to console someone?"

Was that a rhetorical question, DrTalk?

There is little tolerance for religious opinion because it is a fraud. You can't prove Jesus existed. You can't prove god exists. Yet, just like a con man you repeat the words truth and faith over and over again as though repetition makes it a fact. It does not. When the facts don't go your way you cry about how the atheists are out to get you.

Dr Talk, I am usually to busy trying to actually help people through science to console them. However, I do empathize with people to console them instead of lying to them by saying "god has a reason." When in fact you don't know what your god's reasons are do you?

billnewbie your failure to properly read my post leads me to believe the cloud of self righteous egotistical smoke you blow is preventing you from reading it properly. i did NOT ask what the bible said. i quoted the bible. i asked if you(believers) thought god was pro-hemp for making statements such as “God makes the Earth yield healing herbs, which the prudent man should not neglect.” you didnt discuss my QUOTES you merely continued to...preach. gods maybe not pro-hemp...but if you believe the bible is truth then i assume based on that quote you are AT LEAST for the use of medical marijuana. all you did was avoid my question and continue to preach that the bible also speaks of the evils of intoxication. if you believe what you say is true then you are verifying that what i say is also true and confirming my possible belief that god is sittin upstairs today lookin down at a nice sunny day like this and....rollin a j....:)

Wow -- I don’t come to these forums often any longer -- but I know why our country is in such as sad state...intolerance for another’s opinion whether you believe it or not is DEAD. Calling people names is so immature and intolerant -- the only thing I hear from Darwin is hatred

If what you believe in requires faith then there is no truth involved that is why faith is required. Science doesn't require faith because it can prove the truth through experimentation and physical evidence.

Kleej, I don't need the advice that you should giving yourself. You believe god has favored you over people who have died for our country, pathetic.

billnewbie, how 'bout some scripture instead of off-the-mark criticism? Your belief and your doctrine are not sustaining you.

matthew...wow, you're a Christian?
Amazing...calling people mentally weak?

Oh yeah! You're one of them thar judgmental ones, aincha!

"When you do things, do not let selfishness or pride be your guide. Instead, be humble and give more honor to others than to yourselves"
Philippians 2:3

gazettefan~ I'll take that as a no in regards to thanking your creator. Don't worry I've got your back. I've done it many times already, just for people like you. You see, I thank him for your safety and I also thank him for blessing me with my freedom in which many have fought for and given their life for. Pride is a nasty obstacle for people to get over isn't it? It's blinded you your whole life apparently.

They must feel that they’re losing the debate since all pretence of decorum is quickly leaving their posts.
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Kid, you did ask about what the bible says. Complaining about its relevance makes me wonder why you asked about it in the first place. Disingenuity is contagious among the anti-theists, apparently.

gazettfan..Kleej just exposed someone who is simply mentally weak. I could care less of your religious beliefs, really I could not. I'm just amazed at how pompus and arrogant you come across to others. You are the authority on wisdom?...is that what you want to hear? Okay, I annoint you with that title. Everything all better now?

Kleej, all you're doing is exploiting our service people who were killed in action. I don't care who you are, you don't speak for them or me. In fact, you take a superior stance to our killed in action: Somehow you avoided being killed by the enemy therefore god approves of you over our dead. I do not feel that way about myself. If you had any sense you'd know that all other things being equal, the difference between the living and the dead is the difference between good luck and bad luck.

You with your insulting smugness think it's amusing to exploit our dead in order to feed the fact that you don't have the courage to face the reality of life without an imaginary friend and the ridiculous promise of a ridiculous afterlife.

DrTalk, I did everything but take the leap of faith at first. I have no problem admitting my intent was to prove once and for all that Christ was a mere myth. I chose to do the homework and do it with an open mind as opposed to with a bitter heart out of fear of being proven wrong. Needless to say, I was proven wrong and I've been lead to more truth than I'd ever believed possible. For those who are non-believers, have you seriously taken an open minded approach? Are you afraid of what you might find? Truth is truth, whether you prefer it or not. Pride will keep you from accomplishing some great things that perhaps you were called to do. Why be so close minded? To refute the fact that the truth will set you free would be nothing short of a lie. If you've never walked in the steps with Jesus, how can you deny any of this? You can't because you've never TRIED and done it, therefore, you're unqualified to make an even remotely valid "educated" opinion! Think about it.

prounion:"Why believe in god anyway - there are older books than the bible, do you believe just because that is what your were taught growing up or just because its what everyone else is doing?"
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That's a false dilemma fallacy. Clearly there's another option. You take a leap of faith and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Then you will learn the truth.

Outstanding Kleej!

darwin1 "Could you please provide one application of the Bible that has reduced human suffering other than to make excuses for it or say that god has a reason."
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So how do atheists try to console someone?

gazettefan, cool! You didn't see God, yet he brought you home safe. See, he even loves people like you! Talk about unconditional love! Don't forget to say your prayers and thank him for that! He's home 24/7 call anytime!

Important post, thekid.

billnewbie, how can you claim to have an open mind if you reject reality.

Why don't you defend your position by quoting scripture. Oh, yeah, that's right, all scripture does is make your belief look like brainless idiocy. By the way, your narcissistic rants are laughable.

And, Kleej, you again, why couldn't you write a godly or christian post that didn't have violent content. Very revealing.

Kleej, I am a twice wounded combat veteran of the U.S. military and I nor anyone else saw any presence of god on the battlefield. Maybe he was off listening to the prayers of football players on opposing teams.

justification from the bible is the LAST thing im looking for. i live a happy life i dont need to prove it to my neighbors and i certainly dont need to prove it to a mythical being. the fact that dude was born even tho his old lady was supposedly a V throws out all relevance to the bible for me. i was just curoius to opinions. thanx billnewbie for your post but since religion is ALL BELIEF if i choose to believe in god i would also choose to believe that he/she is the one who invented the bong. if god created heaven and earth and since there is NO DEBATE as to marijuana being 100% natural i guess that means god, at least, created pot...even if the bong is a stretch...:)

Why believe in god anyway - there are older books than the bible, do you believe just because that is what your were taught growing up or just because its what everyone else is doing?

I don't need to discredit something that no credibility in the first place. Could you please provide one application of the Bible that has reduced human suffering other than to make excuses for it or say that god has a reason. billnewbie clearly has a god complex, otherwise he wouldn't claim to know what goes on in other peoples minds all the time or tell us how we don't know peace or joy. The only thing that sucks out all peace and joy is billnewbie blathering on cynically about other peoples cynicism.

Hey kid, remember it was Jesus who turned water into wine and hung around prostitutes. Clearly, Jesus liked to party and from his behavior condoned it.

You certainly are persistent in your mission Kid. But if your looking for justification for your crusade to legalize marijuana in the bible as well as your illegal possession of it and commerce in it, your going to be disappointed.
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The exact composition of wine in the days of Christ varied from maker to maker. There was no set recipe. There were no central distributors selling Mogan David throughout the land. So what you've read about the hempen content was pure speculation without any basis in historical fact. Beyond that, the bible has many references to the evils of intoxication. So even if you succeed in your crusade, unless you confine yourself to limited amounts of marijuana consumption, not enough to "catch a buzz" then you still have no biblical approval for its consumption. And of course if you continue to buy, sell and possess marijuana while it is still against the law you are on the wrong side of God.

Whether it is Gazettefan’s cold, calculating style of cynicism or Darwin1’s impassioned reckless style, the results are the same. It’s the cynic that bears the detrimental effects of his own cynicism. The results for the cynic are a closed mind and a hardened heart (just what they accuse Christians of!). For them, no reason, no logic, no hope can penetrate the wall they’ve erected to protect them from the One they hate. And using any tool towards their end is justified in their minds, whether that means distorting history, scripture or even their own credentials while casting aspersions and even silly name calling towards anyone who threatens their shabbily constructed defenses. They disrespectfully dismiss any countering arguments without consideration while demanding respectful consideration for their own contentions even when they are obviously disingenuous and outrageous. In a debate, it’s their cynicism that ultimately fails them as the only ones influenced by them are those who are like minded, as in “preaching to the choir”.
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For the anti-theistic cynic to succeed in bolstering his own convictions he must attempt to discredit scripture and its adherents. They’ve tried repeatedly to discredit what is written in scripture but what is written there defends itself well and so they must misquote and distort what it says which only impresses those who have little knowledge. So they also try to discredit the basis of scripture claiming that the real authors are unknown or that the translations are faulty or even going so far as to distort history such as claiming that Greek would never be used by subjects of the Roman Empire, a particularly laughable claim. But truly their most effective device is attacking those who identify themselves as Christians (or those who the cynics think they can link to Christianity) that have committed despicable acts to discredit Christ. But even then when their argument has some effect (since its true that some who claim to be Christian do some terrible things), they go overboard with absurd slanders such as “the Catholic Church has institutionalized child rape” which betrays their true intentions and motivations. For as much as the cynics condemn the crusades as immoral they seem to be on an immoral crusade of their own, to destroy as much faith and hope (and the peace and joy those things bring) as they can since those are things they lack.

this may be off point. but i have a question for you bible experts. i am NOT, nor do i play one on tv, a bible expert. while i enjoy a good fiction...not so much on the sci-fi...;) i found these in another book im reading and wanted to know if any of you think these mean your god/jesus is pro-hemp??

“And the Earth brought forth grass and herb-yielding seed after its kind and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself after its kind: and God saw that it was good.” Genesis: Chapt. 1: Verse 12

“God makes the Earth yield healing herbs, which the prudent man should not neglect.” Sirach: 38:4

“Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; That which cometh out of the mouth defileth a man.” Jesus, quoted: Matt. 15:11

“In later times, some shall…speak lies in hypocrisy…commanding to abstain from that which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” Paul: 1 Tim. 4:1

i also read at one time that the wine jesus was drinkin at the last supper was possibly a hempen elixer. i cant find where i read that any more.

If you beat someone up your not protecting them. I don't of a single marine who is that undisciplined and stupid. Also, then god isn't god because he isn't omnipotent because with thousands of real soldiers dead and injured he is doing about as good of a job as the military did on 9/11 not protecting us.

matthew516, I am surprised you even know what a television is since the Bible doesn't mention one and it takes science to make one.

A United States Marine was attending some college courses between assignments. He had completed missions in Iraq and Afghanistan . One of the courses had a professor who was a vowed atheist and a member of the ACLU.
One day the professor shocked the class when he came in. He looked to the ceiling and flatly stated, "God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you exactly 15 minutes." The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor proclaimed, "Here I am God. I'm still waiting." It got down to the last couple of minutes when the Marine got out of his Chair, went up to the professor, and cold-cocked him; knocking him off the platform. The professor was out cold.
The Marine went back to his seat and sat there, silently. The other students were shocked and stunned and sat there looking on in silence.
The professor eventually came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the Marine and asked, "What the hell is the matter with you? Why did you do that?" The Marine calmly replied, "God was too busy today protecting America 's soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid crap and act like an ungrateful jerk... So, He sent me."

darwin, is the TV remote permanently adhered to your hand? Try getting off the couch once in awhile and getting out into the world sometime. You'll be amazed that most of what you're etching your mind with on TV is just "fiction". Imagine that? Fiction? Don't have a heart attack now!

I would have to say that my comments on the neurological retardation of religious people is fairly accurate. You see I refer to normal people who chose to retard their own development as retarded which is why I said no offense to people whose neurological development is biologically based and not a choice on their part.

Gospels that allegedly account the life of Jesus but leave out events 37 years after his life? Imagine that?

grin2ear nice facts - NOT!!!

Dang I just realized that if Obama really does rid the world of nuclear weapons that will mean that Jesus can't come back right? I mean how will Armageddon happen without nuclear war? I guess we can just sit and hope that hell fills up, then its zombie time right?

kinsohn, you should ponder the full meaning of your post. It reveals how much you and your christianity needs enemies.

I decided to peek at this thread, expecting to find ignorant, hate-filled anti-Christian bigotry. It did not disappoint.

dramakik, yes, they either didn't read the bible or they've read it with blinders. They just can't acknowledge the true basis of their beliefs: fear, hatred, violence, and ignorance about the real world.

When they are confronted with the truth of scripture and doctrine, their cognitive dissonance sets in. And the blinders go on or the confabulation begins.

Wow, Darwin is using the "R" word now! Now that's just pure class at it's finest isn't it?
And then has the gall to say "no offense "retarded" people"??? There's our society in a nutshell right there! If it feels good, do it. Whether it offends someone or not, say it anyway. It's called lack of accountability to one's self. It's also called, CREDIBILITY down the drain! There are some great personal growth and self help books out there for you, Darwin that can help you through this. You know, the same one's that have helped MILLIONS of people get over themselves through the years like, John Maxwell, Steven Covey, Rick Warren, Gary Chapman........and many more. I'd be happy to loan you some if money is tight.
P.S. I'll pray that the people reading this blog who have "MENTALLY RETARDED" children don't get "too" offended by your words, afterall, "no offense" intended, right??
P.S.S.... You're welcome.

Darwin you are embarrassing the left, please at least get the historical facts and time lines down straight prior to debating them. You make it impossible to get our point across when they are laughing so hard they can no longer read the screen through the tears.

Not true Darwin1. There is no mention in the gospels of the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 A.D. This was a prophecy of Jesus, and would have been recorded if it had happened by then. That's only 37 years.

No the gospel writers were not eyewitnesses. There was no such thing as authorship during the time of Christ. That doesn't happen for another 100 years or so. Paul is actually the person who lived closest to the time of Christ (letters) and yet he never mentions anything specific about Jesus' life. Why? Because they were busy stealing the story from the Egyptians. I understand it is hard to believe your life is a lie, but it is. Remember, the truth will set you free from ignorance and belief in a god that doesn't exist except in your delusions.

I can't find those words in a Bible search, for NIV at least. Are you saying you think it is in the Bible or it is not? If you think it is, which Bible translation do you think it is in?

Why hasn't anybody said that it DOES NOT say anywhere in the Bible to kill your neighbor if he will not repent? Such blatant lies should be addressed.

Darwin1, when you stoop to name calling it's an admission of defeat and it impresses no one, at least not positively. And really, the developmentally challenged have enough challenges without you adding to them by holding them up as examples to be ridiculed.

As to the .5% of error you may be worried about, they are nothing more than spelling errors and occasional word omissions like the words "the", "but", etc. Nothing affects doctrinal truths, and nothing in ancient history even comes close to the accuracy of the New Testament documents, because they are far superior in their copying accuracy than any other ancient literature in existence.

Greek was the common language of the Roman Empire. The New Testament was written in Greek to ensure it could be read by the most people. Christianity does not need to borrow from any outside influence for its doctrines. All the doctrines of Christianity exist in the Old Testament, which prophesied Jesus as the son of God. Also, the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses. So, what they did was write what Jesus taught as well as record the events of His life, death, and resurrection. In other words, they recorded history, actual events and had no need of fabricating or borrowing.

Prounion, you and Darwin1 have gotta that your religion humor on the road...PLEASE!

Any book claiming the deity of Santa, or any other book that might claim something less ridiculous, would not be considered part of the Bible for several reasons. They lacked apostolic or prophetic authorship, they did not claim to be the Word of God, they contain unbiblical concepts, or have some serious historical inaccuracies.

99.5 pure isn't pure. Its that .5 percent that is the problem. How could the original Bible be written in Greek? What is that 1000 miles from where Jesus lived and breathed? I am sure it is accurate then considering it is the same story of Horace from the Egyptians. So, the Greeks stole the story from the Egyptians and the Christians believe it. Way to go.

Darwin1, my darling, it was the profundity of your Bible quote that has proven to me your fine depth of knowledge in arguing religion. Thank you for that. I'm sure Darwin would be proud!

A new scroll was just discovered last week, turns out it looks valid - Santa is real. I for one always had faith in Santa. I hope the new scripture turns some of you Santa denialists around.

The New Testament was originally written in Greek and we have around 6,000 copies of the original manuscripts. Statistically, the New Testament is 99.5% textually pure. All translations come from the original Greek, not from previous translations. The King James version was only one of those translations. Jesus Christ is the son of the Old Testament God, God in human form, and came to fulfill the laws of the Old Testament.