Its great to see You back and scrapping chad_vader, I'd been waiting for Your return My brother. Comments in these blogs really boggle My mind, they go from down right hurtful, to very supportive. We all have our own "versions" of recent events, and ideas, and or solutions, G.M. Janesville, and supplier employees will survive, new product or not, difficult decisions would have to be made, as they will, and time will keep churning, like it always has. Comments by some posters just literally crack Me up...train a monkey to do most of those jobs? Yes, our work is considered "non skilled" but I have news for You, its not putting a round peg into a round hole, anyone with any knowledge of work loads and process's at the local plant in the last 5 to 10 years would tell You different. chad_vader, if he's who I think He is has done a job that literally made Me think My arm was broken, after 4 hours of work, stop to blink, breathe, or break wind and Your screwed, but cheese and rice, dont stop that line! Or You'll be booted! Many, if not all line workers cannot even get to their table to get a drink of water, in the summer heat (often 100 plus in the plant), but yes, we must be over paid, and lazy, and dont forget drunk news paper reading idiots! If a new product comes, all You nay sayers could have Your chance to prove Yourselves right, and make the wage of $14.00 an hour, if You get the chance to work on the line next to chad or Myself, You'll see what its like, and decide for Yourself if You want to tear Your body up for that wage.

Out of the 1200 soon to be out of work at GM roughly HALF don't even live in Janesville. Some come from Clinton and even as far away as the Milwaukee area. So much for hard times in Janesville.

Well said polert. Yet the UAW will support those very policies that will harm us further. I joined the union in 1962 but am fed up with a union whose leadership is more concerned with being buddies with the very politicians who scoff at us when they think it isn't noticed (guns and religion). In the end it is our fault for electing self serving union leadership. Sad to say, the UAW needs to be put on the shelf. Their continued presence in Janesville will only serve to keep new employers out of town.

very well stated and I stand corrected

Out of every dollar a small business owner in Janesville pays in Federal tax only $.75 returns. Under Obama that same business owner will pay a minimum of $7500 in federal taxes which will never return to Janesville. Those added cost will be taken right off the employee payroll of a Janesville resident to be sent to lets say Mississippi where the economic status is lower. Janesville resident will see zero relief under the spread the wealth program.

true, ihavealife, true!I shall not smite thy holy steel again.

redder, of course unions are not needed in every work environment. But there are some where one is still needed, such as a worker in a larger factory where they would not have a voice and would be subject to the boss's whim no matter how good a worker is. There are still jerks on power trips out there. Unfortunately hatred, discrimination, and injustice have NOT disappeared since the 20's. Now that doesn't mean that labor unions shouldn't look at themselves and see where they need to improve. If you could show me proof that anyone was not ever treated unfairly by big business in the last 10 years, I would probably have the same view as you.

Zoom - yes, the cost of the labor is actually a small percentage of the vehicle. That is correct. While I disagree with your assessment that unions could still not be useful, I think they could still be but need to be retooled themselves, your opinion is not one that surprises me either (by the way I always say one can agree to disagree). What needs to be cut down is the cost of material, especially steel to help with the overall cost of vehicles.

chad
Unions need to just go away, why do hard working americans need them. Its not the 20s anymore

Sorry zoom must have taken it out of context. When I am wrong I am wrong yet a following post seemed a bit critical

HappyPants said:
"The reason for the high payments... high cost (labor) to build the cars."

GM trucks and SUV's are not overpriced compared to their competition, and sometimes are priced less. All companies who makes those vehicles have suffered. GM just happened to make the most of them, so they are suffering the most. The payment is high, whether you buy a full size GM or Toyota SUV.

"The exorbitant labor costs and union retiree benefits have all but run the well dry."

True. The transplants make more profit per vehicle than GM. The new labor agreement will level the playing field in 2010, if GM can make it that far.

"Any way you slice it... Unions are self-serving institutions."

I agree. While they once had their place, I think they have outlived their usefullness.

Sappypants- I am going to report you to the Psychic consortium as being a sham. You were off on your prediction of my lifestyle, and also seem to be way off kilter as a union buster. Yes, unions need to get their house in order, but as you see by all the people whining about their low wages that "GM people will now have to get used to" it is apparent that most businesses still seem to get rich on the backs of the middle class worker.
And redder - the problem is not with the unionized workers refusing cross training and all that crap. Alot of the problem is management decisions to implement policies yet then turn around and fudge these policies when things get tough to implement. We had Pay for Knowledge (cross training)yet management never wanted to devote the time or manpower to implement it like it should have. We can only follow their lead, we don't run the place.

redder, if you read one of my previous posts, I said: "The transplants only build factories in right-to-work states, so they don't have to deal with Unions as long as they pay a fare wage."

Basically, I was disagreeing with HappyPants statement that the transplants would be unionized. However, it seems you, I, and Happy Pants have the same view that unions have become inefective, and even harmful. I'm not going to talk about politics here. There are plenty of other articles we can disagree on.

The other post simply puts some of your Obama stats up front thats all take it however you wish I guess

zoom as usual you miss the point, I only stated to yours and others that the imports do not have to use union labor nor bow to the pressures of. THATS ALL BIG GUY STOP THE SPIN PLEASE

Wow, now Obama and democrats want to unionize the nation? Where did that come from? Can we try and keep one article from devolving into politics? Anyway, I doubt that right-to-work states will ever convert back. Those are the states with succesful manufacturing sectors, which means better lobbying.

I asked the question about converting Wisconsin to right-to-work because I think it would give us an advantage at attracting new business. With the UAW losing power after every factory closing, I wonder how hard it would be.

The US should immediately pull out of Chicago !
Body count -- In the last six months 292 killed (murdered) in Chicago , 221 killed in Iraq .

Sens. Barack Obama & Dick Durbin, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., Gov. Rod Blogojevich, House leader Mike Madigan, Atty. Gen. Lisa Madigan (daughter of Mike), Mayor Richard M. Daley (son of Mayor Richard J. Daley).....our leadership in Illinois.....all Democrats.
Thank you for the combat zone in Chicago . Of course, they're all blaming each other.
Can't blame the Republicans, there aren't any!!!!

State pension fund $44 Billion in debt, worst in country. Cook County ( Chicago ) sales tax 10.25%highest in country. (Look'em up if you want). Chicagoschool system one of the worst in country.

This is the political culture that Obama comes from in Illinois .
He's gonna 'change' Washington politics?

happy

I agree with alot of what you say, however, just a point, the imports will never be in the same situation as the big 3. Why, because they do not have to bow to the unions, nor do they have the pressure of the American worker or people to comtend with. PLUS take a Kia for example they are building a facility in Georga right now, evry vehicle goes down the same line, reducing the cost of manufacturing, domestics they all are built at seperate plants. This is the majority of the problem. Imports cross train, americans dont want to because the union either wont let them or doesn't want them to. Its all crazy, yes but why can a country that grew up with manufatureing become second fiddle to the world, I (my opinion) beleive its the unions that have made the american worker either not trainable or ties their hands so as they may not be competetive. The imports laugh at us, and that is just not right. We could do it, simply by being true to yourself and your family and doing what it takes to get the job done, quit letting the unions get rich, and in turn costing you your livelyhood

As far as I can tell the right to work laws essentially mean you can't force every employee to pay a union due. Thus the only people who will pay a union due are those willing and in this economic climate who in their right mind would voluntarily give some of their money away? I assume a fair wage is one in which you can get enough people to work for you to meet your needs while keeping them productive. A union in a right to work state would have a hard time getting everyone to be a member without some sort of intimidation factor. I know that unions have good points, but don't forget at its core it is another bureaucracy. In any case, I doubt the nation will suddenly be over-run with unions with the election of Obama (which might not even happen despite the poll number). I think there are enough moderate democrats even if they hold everything that most radical legislation isn't going to go through. Of course I could be wrong.

oh... and just wait. this ain't over yet... this "right-to-work" thing. If Obama wins the the Dems hold both houses of Congress, it won't be long before EVERYTHING is unionized.

zoom- Thanks for the clarification regarding "right-to-work" states. What is considered a fair wage? As far as high gas prices killing the SUV... I have to say that the high gas prices were fingered as the cause but if people weren't paying $500/month in payments then maybe they could afford to spend a few more bucks in gas. The reason for the high payments... high cost (labor) to build the cars. The exorbitant labor costs and union retiree benefits have all but run the well dry. Any way you slice it... Unions are self-serving institutions. I know many people who have put a lot of money into their Unions and in the end. the Unions have no real power to keep their jobs. None.

I just seen a report with Speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi where she outlines a new bill forming that will take 401k, and Social Security money to form a program name the federal retirement program. That will be taking from the hard working, and giving to the unwilling to work.

I'm curious what you union members think about Wisconsin changing to a right-to-work state. Colorado will be voting on that November 4th.

HappyPants said: "As foreign car companies continue to build cars here in the good ol' US then they will eventually find themselves in the same boat as the big 3. Eventually the Unions will destroy them as well."

The transplants only build factories in right-to-work states, so they don't have to deal with Unions as long as they pay a fare wage. While high wages and benfits have helped to make the Big 2.8 unprofitable, by 2010, that burden will be greatly reduced. The trick is to last until 2010.

HappyPants, high fuel prices are the main reason SUV and truck sales have fallen off a cliff. Toyota and Nissan have also had huge declines in truck/sales sales, and now Honda is reducing Pilot and Ridgeline production, and increasing Accord production. While overall sales of vehicles are down, GM has seen some sales increases on small vehicles.

If not for the drop off in industry vehicle sales, GM could have easily made it to 2010 when lower wages kick in, making GM profitable again. Now, I'm not so sure GM won't have to file for Chapter 11 before then.

chad-vader: You must one of those dorky Star Wars losers who never grew up. You probably have all of the figurines and you play with them every night. The force be with you Chad.
~
The issue is not about gas prices it is because the car companies cannot continue to afford to pay these ridiculously high wages not to mention these off-the chart retirement packages the people get. Unions have created this mess
~
As foreign car companies continue to build cars here in the good ol' US then they will eventually find themselves in the same boat as the big 3. Eventually the Unions will destroy them as well. Wait until all of theose workers face retirement and they are required to pay the same benefits to their retirees. IT is the same as the Airline industry. Any time a union gets involved, they bleed a company dry and then walk away- one plant at a time.
~
Unions had their day. Back when people were forced to work 20 hour days with no OT or vacation on basic benefits. Unions have morphed into the leaches of society and they serve no real purpose except to stir up animosity towards the people who supply the jobs in the first place.
~
matman: doom and Gloom. If your (or anyone's life) revolves completely around the plant in Janesville, then I feel sorry for you. Is it sad? Sure! Will it sting? You bet. Will life go on? Yes. Don't be so dramatic.
~
Bellagio_Bound: you wrote "... I know a GM employee that recently bought a new foreign SUV with his wife (you know who you are). Shame on you and way to be a part of the problem and not a part of the solution! I hope you are enjoying your new Honda." Shame on you! More Union tactics! This is a global economy pal. He should have the freedom to buy whatever he wants!

Curlysue -- I just added my husband's unemployment check and sub-pay together and compared it to a regular paycheck from when he worked a 40 hour week. The unemployment and sub-pay adds up to 90% of net wages after taxes from a regular 40 hour paycheck. The gross amount of the unemployment/sub-pay is being compared to the net amount of a regular paycheck.

I'm waiting for GM to get a bailout myself.
What a disaster this country is sitting on. We are printing $$$ faster then it can be added to out national debt! I just got a great laugh reading this article off Bloomberg. Check it out.
.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...
.
This was ever so predictable. These bailouts will do NOTHING to solve the liquidity/credit crisis, just as I told everyone. It's just massive corporate welfare. These banks will simply hoard the $$$$, pay more executive bonuses, ext ext. This is comical, we (the tax payer) are actually buying STOCK IN BANKS, in the SHAM that we were sold that it was to ease lending, hahaha. Talk about giving the corrupt MORE $$$$, and expecting better results. GM should get their bailout now, while the government is in the $$$ printing mood. Grab the cash while you can, before it's so devalued that it will be worthless.

I agree, my husbands been laid off from GM since July and he doesn't get "90%" pay either. Where is the reporter getting his info?

I see a direct link of my post to GM.

polert has now become the Gazette troll by posting the same off topic, erroneous comment over 10 times!

By the way, it's "saw", not "seen".

I seen a report from a meet/greet line in Ohio where a plumber/owner operator asked Obama why do you want to raise my taxes. Obama replied because we need to spread the wealth. Which means the people that work hard need to give to those that are unwilling to work.

Telling people to buy American is about as effective as telling people to go shopping so the terrorists don't win. A better message would be to get off your arses and start adding value to the economy, save for the future, and most important make sure your children have what they need (EDUCATION) to contribute in the future.

What a relief to FINALLY here someone talking with their true I"M AN AMERICAN brain!!!! And I thank you for that. So much is true in the matter that we are LOSING control of our OWN country, and the ingnorance of "I'll buy foreign just to dispite" is just that.... pure ignorance. What sort of future are you preparing for the next generation. Be AMERICAN, Buy AMERICAN. I do know that this is not always easy to find a particular product; but if we ALL start making the attempt we can bring those jobs back to where they belong.

This is not the end, yet a new beginning. I drive a Vibe, made at Nummi by UAW workers in the same county I work in. It was the same gloom and doom in Fremont CA when GM closed over 20 years ago. Now there is a thriving plant making better cars than ever.

The following was posted by "Dance2themusic" in the Detroit Free Press: 'What a bunch of posting wizards on here! The entire economy has been destroyed by a handful of big money people manipulating the price of gasoline. They went too far this time, raw greed, and shot themselves in the foot. If the car companies in the USA fail this country will go broke. Do you have any idea at all of the impact of failed auto business, and all the small companies they support?
Management problem, no! UAW problem, no! American people buying Volvo, Kia, Hundai, Honda, Toyota, oh gee, is that the problem? {{{{YES}}}}!!!!! OK folks, make sure you go out and support the people that brought you Pearl Harbor, WWII, the Korean war, and you help America go broke too!
Oh that's right, you don't care about that, until the next big one!
This country has been devastated by the price of gasoline, it has affected everyone, everywhere, then all you folks keep buying imported crap. Feel good about yourself when you look in the mirror. Oh, by the way, {{YOU}} are the problem.' Deep down inside we all know this person nailed it right on the head.

I have to laugh when people complain about not buying "american" made vehicles. When it comes right down to it, the economy of my family is more important than the economy of anyone else. I'll buy the best vehicle that fits my needs. The reliability and quality of vehicles made by the Big 3 during the 70's, 80', and early 90's were crap compared to most of the foreign competition. Only now is the reliability gap even close. If it wasn't for consumers speaking with their checkbooks, the Big 3 would still be making crap cars (well, some are still crap).

GM Janesville makes the best vehicles in their class, but they are out of reach for most people. Here is an interesting article from early 2006 about why Toyota is beating GM and Ford. Note that creaky factories, vast pension obligations, and cranky unions aren't even mentioned until the end.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB11398017...

You people need tthat think Janesville will do just find when GM closes because GM only employess 1200 people. Well lets see they also have outside contracters in there aramark, security etc... These people add up to people that are losing there jobs along with all the other factories that supply parts and the truck drivers that bring the parts to GM. Janesville has been a factory town and this will effect everyone of the community in some way. Lets stop slamming the GM workers and start coming together as a community.

The funny part is, I know a GM employee that recently bought a new foreign SUV with his wife (you know who you are). Shame on you and way to be a part of the problem and not a part of the solution! I hope you are enjoying your new Honda.

I have never read such Inconsiterate statements in my whole life as I have read here.I am not going to bother to try and tell the fine people of Janesville that you really do not understand the effect of closing of a GM Assembly plant.You can bet your life that in a matter of weeks after the closing you wish this never happend.It is a major set back and will be felt for many repete many years to come.Bad mouth all you want it's your pocket book your playing with.It is not something to joke about or put the work force down about.Read the history on Flint Mi.Every one of you should be pulling together not pulling apart.Trust me you will see and it will not be plesent..God bless you Janesville.....:(

Pardon my lack of keeping up with history. Foreign trucks had a 25% tariff until 2005 and cars didnt

Long over due, this plant should have been closed five years ago. Should not be building those GAS HOG'S

MrScott, do some research. Toyota and Nissan along with other manufacturers have plants here in the U.S. mostly in the southern states. Hyundi even has a state of the art plant in Alabama. Do their cars cost alot less? NO! Tarriffs have no part in my apples to apples. If that was the case I would compare the Saturn Vue with the Chevy Equinox, Both GM but the vue is made in Mexico and the Equinox in the U.S. Now a tarriff is defined as a tax put on an item entering the US from an outside country. Now why ask if the two cost the same, why not build either here or there? Answer is in the accounting, taxes come out of a seperate account where the company can write off alot of that.

Check out http://www.votenader.org to research Independent Presidential Candidate Ralph Nader Look at his views on issues that McCain and Obama have not even brought up. Vote Nader if you agree with any of the following.

One idea is to view labor rights as civil rights. Suppose workers enjoyed the same rights to form or join a union as they enjoy for other forms of discrimination? If workers seeking to unionize could sue under the Civil Rights Act of 1991 (instead of depending on existing unions to press for remedies before toothless federal agencies) they could secure:

* Compensatory damages, not just back pay, but damages for serious humiliation or grave emotional distress.
* Punitive damages, to send a message to outlaw employers that behave contemptuously, whether it is Microsoft or a big city sweatshop.
* Injunctive relief, including temporary restraining orders and preliminary injunctions so that employers can be in court defending themselves, or at least in depositions, within days or weeks of an unlawful firing.
* Legal fees, not only to give employers an incentive to settle but to empower individuals to bring their own law suits, even start their own organizing drive, and to enlist the private bar as a new army of organizers.

For the first time every citizen would be empowered to go out and push the cause of dignity and fair pay at work.

A Worker's Bill of Rights is needed because the rights of worker's have been on the decline. It is time to reverse that trend and begin to give workers the backbone of the US economy the rights they deserve. Among the items that should be included in a Worker's Bill of Rights are:

* Workers need to be given a living wage not a minimum wage.
* Access to health care and unilateral reductions in medical benefits should not be allowed.
* A pension plan should be included for employees and pensions for current employees and retirees should not be allowed to be reduced unilaterally.
* Employers should not be able to avoid these benefits by hiring temporary workers or independent contractors.
* The privacy of employees need to be protected, e.g. the monitoring of employee email.
* When downsizing of a company is necessary, employees need to be given adequate notice and sufficient severance pay.
* The pernicious dominant employment law of employment at will that allows for an employee to be fired for any reason, no reason or a bad reason needs to be replaced with an employee's bill of rights.

This is the strangest blog I have ever tried to read. Doesn't anyone realize that this is the end of an era? There are many families affected by this loss. I AM A GM EMPLOYEE, AND PROUD TO HAVE BEEN PART OF THE GM FAMILY FOR 22 YEARS. Instead of nitpicking, maybe some of you should be thankful it wasn't YOUR job. Times are tough and going to get tougher!

Nummi makes the Corolla, Tacoma and Vibe at the same plant with the same people. Apples to apples, tariffs have no effect here. So you can't blame tariffs for costs of those vehicles.

MrScott - you have it a little wrong. The tariffs are on luxury automobiles only. And what excuse do you have for those vehicles made in the US? And lets not forget the even worse tariffs other countries put on US Big 3 vehicles that are alot worse than what you brought up. Not to mention the trade imbalance that is helping put our country in the hole.

**Do you really think if the workers made less the vehicles would cost less? It's coorporate greed, Toyota, Nissan and other manufacturer workers make less, but do their cars and trucks cost less? NO! Apples to apples, a camary costs the same as a malibu but the gross profit is more for Toyota!**
.
No, that is not true. Foreign vehicle cost more than American vehicles because the US government implements high tariffs to make the prices competitive with US products. If it weren't for the tariffs, we'd be able to buy foreign vehicles in the US for under 10k. They are making more money because they sell more vehicles, period.

wow, etown, I wish I wouldn't have complemented you on your civilized method of asking questions before calling names. Right after that you called me crazy because you failed to research your assumption about sub pay.
And evansvillehousewife-what do you think? (serious question). I mean really-regarding whether those people would rather have a certain 5 years of work, or the “suggested” 3 years of medical and 90 (exaggeration) % pay? My guess-there would be some who would take the 3 years (and the insecurity that goes with that), but I would state with near certainty that most would opt for the work. Those wanting the offered buy-out have already taken it. Work gives most people pride in themselves and a feeling of control over their own lives. Despite the insulting, degrading opinions that a few have of these men and women, the work ethic of the general population of GM workers is hard to surpass. Of course, it might be better for the economy if they were to refuse it like these other posters I mentioned surely would do (because they sure get mad if they're even offered it), or at least they should pass it up to the struggling CEO’s, but then the workers probably couldn't do their usual part in helping to support our local charities, and may even have to use the services offered there, and we'd be back where we started from.
to “youneedhelp”: I wish people would take the time to read and digest posts like yours, but I’m afraid they only read and reread their own, and judge other posts and subjects based on their version of “truth”.

Can someone tell me how many people worked at GM at the height of their production? It seems to be that the plant has been steadily losing workers over the past decade or so, yet the city of Janesville and surrounding Rock county continues to grow.

The 3 year vacation you all gripe about is just a estimate of the best side. Some will transfer, some will be offered jobs( and if they turn down 3 offers they are out of the job bank - no more "vacation" pay). Others will retire. I would say the majority would be pressed to see 1 year at the most of the job bank, as most people there DO want to work for a living.

I love the fact that some people think that GM employees were not fiscally responsible, did not work hard for a living, and that they do not realize the situation GM is in. Yet the morons who have never set foot in the plant, do not know the good people I know who work there, and want sympathy because they do not make good wages. Just shows that if Darwins law really worked that they would not be here to disparage the fine people at GM, Lear and the other suppliers.

I enjoyed my free sample of Crest Glide dental floss in Sunday's paper. Mmmmmminty!

Trostel in Whitewater is hiring and the workers went on strike today...
Generac is so desperate, they put job applications in the Gazette's Sunday paper.

sappypants - if they hired monkeys to do factory work then you could get a job there.

It's to bad that most of the people that are crying out there make sub poverty wages because they are not man or women enough to stick up for yourselves and demand better wages. Instead they believe managments bull if they pay them more they will loose their jobs. The same CEO like the one that runs GM and has taken the stock from $76 a share to $4.86 a share and still recieved a 56% pay raise last year. Millions more while you get payed less. If you read Fridays paper you'll notice United Way has to cut their buget by $400,000 and that's not because Wal mart jobs have left the area. Along with those high paying jobs comes high taxes, something you poverty level wage earners would know nothing about. Along with those hundreds upon hundreds of thousand of dollars of taxes we each pay a lot of us have also given tens of thousands to charities. My self United Way fair share, Boy Scouts, Church,ect. We have supported this community and state all these years and this is all we get. A bunch of jealous dumb garbage from a bunch of sheepoeple who won't even stand up for them selves. I for one am tired of paying for you winers. Get a real job pay real taxes and see how every one treats you. Good buy and good luck Janesville.

well, there is that 90% the gazette keeps putting in the paper, I have been laid off from GM since July and have yet to receive 90% of my wages.
I wonder what else they print that is not true.
Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Sarah, you said "Concerning the subpay -- that does NOT come from GM -- a portion is taken out of an employee's paycheck each week and set aside to pay the subpay."
** Wouldn't that mean that the money came from GM? Since GM pays you?

I wonder.... if the GM employees were given a choice of not getting the three years health insurance and 90% pay, and instead were guaranteed another 5 years of steady work, which would they choose?
Another question I have... is the money funding this thre year "adjustment period" coming out of Union Dues or government bailout?

Wow...a 3 year vacation at 90% pay WITH benefits? If you cannot find something else to do in 3 years of your paid vacation....well...that pretty much says it all.

CAFE didn't destroy the SUV market, high fuel prices did. The latest CAFE standards signed into law by President Bush on December 19, 2007 requires in part that automakers boost fleetwide gas mileage to 35 mpg by the year 2020. The Big 2.8 had no problem meeting the current CAFE standards.

"Ultimately, GM workers will keep their health insurance benefits and receive a minimum of 90 percent of their pay until September 2011, when the current contract expires between the United Auto Workers and GM".

Congratulations on your three year vacation, GM workers! Most people who lose their jobs have to find another within weeks to make ends meet. Wow!

This is what happens when you build a product the US congress does not like. They enact CAFE laws to make sure no one will by them. With the democrats in Washington doing every thing to keep gas prices high and will tax it if the price gets to low,the result here was predictable.A victory for the California tree huggers and their democratic stooges, another disaster for another loyal GM town.So sad the UAW is so wrapped up in the social engineering of these planet first nuts that the very industry it needs to survive is being destroyed before their very eyes.

"Thank the democrats for the CAFE bill that pretty much took down the SUV market. People that work there need to open their eyes and realize the party that tells you they are for you are really the ones hurting you"
***********
more blame because washington "took down" the SUV market.....ha

Thank the democrats for the CAFE bill that pretty much took down the SUV market. People that work there need to open their eyes and realize the party that tells you they are for you are really the ones hurting you.

Sarah,
Excellent post. I was also about to respond to the sub pay remarks made by others. I think some people jump to conclusions without knowing what sub pay is.

momof1.....your post is sad, but true.

'Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who
has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was,
since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:

Knowing when to come in out of the rain; why the early bird gets the
worm; Life isn't always fair; and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend
more than you can earn) and reliable strategies: adults, not children,
are in charge.

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but
overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old
boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate;
teens
suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher
fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the
job that they themselves had failed
to do in disciplining their unruly
children. It declined even further when schools were required to get
parental consent to administer sun lotion or an Aspirin to a student;
but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted
to have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses;
and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a
burglar in your own home and
the burglar could sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to
realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in
her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.


Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust;
his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son,
Reason. He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, I
Want It Now, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I'm A Victim.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If
you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and
do nothing.'

Concerning the subpay -- that does NOT come from GM -- a portion is taken out of an employee's paycheck each week and set aside to pay the subpay.
Quit your bellyaching about things that don't concern you -- the money isn't coming from the state and it's not coming out of your paycheck.
People whine about how much money GM people make but I'll tell you this -- when an organization wants money for something, you can find them standing outside the GM gates when the employees leave looking for money for donations for all sorts of things for the community.
Also, some people drive Suburbans because they have big families. If you have a lot of children you need the room for the car seats that are mandatory. They don't all fit in a smaller car - so quit complaining about everyone that drives an SUV.

FreedomSpeaks,

Do you really believe that if Obama is elected, the Janesville local area will get an abundance of jobs that pay over $7-10/hour? In case you haven't watched the news, we are looking at a global recession. Sorry to spoil your rainbows and unicorn look at reality. I am not saying that it won't be better under Obama, but be realistic. When you are that dramatic it borders on propaganda.

I agree with you gmretired....Some people will never change. I personally tried to help my "friend" because I was asked too help when they couldn't stop spending. But when it came down to it, and the money was being spent on bills and not frills, things changed quickly. Now I am this horrible person that butt into their business.
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Until people start adapting to the idea that you don't have to have it right now because you "deserve" it, things will not get better for them.

There are many state and local programs for lower income people and one that should be policed is the one where most of us have to send in a percentage of our electric bill to help out others who can not pay their winter bills. Well that is fine for the ones who truely can not afford it but I know at least 3 who get their check on the 1st and it is gone on the 3rd of the month to the "rent it now" center or the "title loan" companies. On the 1st they will each take the family of 4-6 out for pizza, do a movie, and go shopping for un needed junk, then by the 3rd they are broke and have not paid their rent or bills. The state needs to have classes on money management and how not to blow every penny you get!! That would save us all a lot of money! I once offered to take one ladie's check for her for one month and pay her bills, etc. She went crazy when she could not have 30.00 to blow at the movies.. So I gave up helping..

ruserious , if you think sub pay isnt a contributing factor your crazy, at 1000 workers and 400 each and im sure both numbers are low that 400,000 a week gm pays out , now multiply that by the six or seven weeks a year they are down, and then by the number of plants,so everytime gm wanted to change it would cost them twice once for the workers not working and the investment of the change, a company cant survive like that , the plant closing isnt the end of the problems , if gm cant turn this around, and they file bankruptcy then you will also have to include the retirees, some people cant afford to lose the benefits they worked their whole lives for

How about this? How about people quit looking for handouts and sympathy and placing blame where it doesn't belong. If everyone would look inside themselves and figure out that you each have to take care of your own and not rely on someone else to bail you out, then this world would be a lot better place to live.
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I am not living off the state as someone posted, and I do work full time. I also take care of myself and family and I do it without whining that someone is out to screw me, the average worker. I have not overindulged in material things that I don't need, but live a nice life and drive a nice vehicle and don't go without what I or my family needs. I work hard for what I have and will continue to do so.
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There is life BEYOND GM!!!! What a concept!!!

Why is everyone so upset? Did you really read the article? "When SUV production ends, GM hourly workers will receive state unemployment compensation checks that in most cases will be at the maximum of $355 per week. Supplemental unemployment benefits that were negotiated into their national contract will boost that state check to the level of more than 90 percent of the worker's weekly pay.

When state unemployment runs out after 26 weeks, SUB pay will increase to cover the loss of unemployment and continue for another 22 weeks. When 48 weeks of unemployment and SUB pay are exhausted, the workers will move into GM's Jobs Bank.

Ultimately, GM workers will keep their health insurance benefits and receive a minimum of 90 percent of their pay until September 2011, when the current contract expires between the United Auto Workers and GM." I'd take it!

"It doesn't get passed on to the economy, the big boys behind the desks get it."

Are you saying Rick Wagoner's annual $10.1 million salary package should be increased if GM actually makes a profit?

If (you) work for Lear, you will get unemployemnt, most likely, for 2 years AND a 2 year degree that is paid for. You will also qualify for the displaced worker fund--which helps you with car repairs etc.., Not only are school tuition and books paid for but so are supplies (pencils, paper, uniforms, SHOES). This is all because Lear sent 4 weld shop jobs to Canada in Feb of 2008. So, if you are laid off at Lear prior to that date in 2009 (it is a 1 year umbrella that this federal law allows for) you will be "ok"......maybe not great....but atleast ok for now.....

good by and good luck to all, the plant is done and all the crying will not help, it is time to move on and hope of a good job some place else.

"Do you really think if the workers made less the vehicles would cost less?"

No, but the company could make a profit, which GM, Ford and Chrysler haven't done in some time.

Good luck to any and all affected. Things will be hard around here for quite some time. Lets try and come together instead of tearing each other apart.

What are all you people going to complain about when the plant closes and the elections are over!? This is rediculous! Do you really think if the workers made less the vehicles would cost less? It's coorporate greed, Toyota, Nissan and other manufacturer workers make less, but do their cars and trucks cost less? NO! Apples to apples, a camary costs the same as a malibu but the gross profit is more for Toyota! What do they do with that profit? It doesn't get passed on to the economy, the big boys behind the desks get it. It sure is easy to point the finger of blame. The whole economy is bad and now the local economy will get worse. It's going to be a trickle down effect and if you think you are going to be safe, think again. Lear and LSI are 2 big employers that rely on GM. Their employees will be effected and spending less. Pretty soon it'll affect places from restaurants to shopping and their employees. This is a major happening and everyone should be taking this seriously. More jobs are lost in this area than there is hiring. What's going to happen when unemployment benefits run out for these people? More forclosures making your property values go down even more? possible! Mom and Pop businesses will close? Possible. So rather than complaining about the lazy overpaid autoworker, you people should be supporting these people and everyone affected in these hard times! I also read a good comment about the non-profits, most of those help the already struggling. Without donations they can't operate and with the current situation at hand, the people that made donations to help, can't anymore. No good is coming out of this and to rip on what's going on and to come across that you are glad GM is making this decision is out of line! Please, I ask all of you to support all effected by this rather than complain, whine, and point. Kicking us while we're down isn't helping resolve anything

ap2533jvl...We agree with everything you said. THANK YOU for saying it!!!! We are sick and tired of being slammed by these jerks.

For those of you who think GM employees, making vehicles costing thousands (overpriced? that’s another subject) should be making the same as workers at, say, The Dollar Store, where is the equal anger at the discrepancy of the salaries of their CEO’s? Run a skillion dollar empire, make multi-millions;Run a lesser empire, make fewer millions? Hmm, seems to be logical. But not for the “peons”, right? They should all make the same? So, to make it possible, should the CEO’s of the biggest corporations get an even bigger salary and benefit package than they already do to soak up the extra profits, but the lowest employees of every corporation, big or small, make the same wages as everyone else? Or better yet, do you think the vehicles should cost the same as that pack paper plates you just bought at the Dollar Store, and the mcburger you just bought to put on it, and everyone make the same wages for producing whatever they produce, no matter about the rest of the details? The name for that seems to escape me at the moment....
ddrink? You actually think those SUB pay benefits drove them over the edge? Remember, they don’t get that when they are profitable and every one is working. I have never heard that one, no one discusses how and why some local laid off employees get more than others. (No denying that it is very unfortunate.)
ddrink, I won’t mention your screen name as you did mine, or why yours appears to fit.
etown, I would suggest you look up sub pay and how it came about.-it is Supplemental-meant to supplement unemployment-not replace it. Other money that they might get-including a recent signing bonus they were to get annually for the next 4 years-DOES take away from their unemployment, considered as income. etown, think some could take a lesson from your last post (yep-me, too)-you have legitimate questions. Too bad everyone doesn’t simply ask questions, instead of spewing hate about things they don’t fully understand.

Doom and Gloom, doom and gloom, poor me poor me. The economy has ruined us.....blah blah blah. Please. Maybe if so many "people" had not financed themselves to the hilt because they "deserve" to get what they want, even though they cannot afford it, there would not be such a financial crisis. It is called responsibility people. The "I deserve it" attitude is why GM is where GM is.....

ruserious, i know sub pay is nothing new, but my point is ,why hasnt the state been subtracting that from their unemployment, if i make extra money while on unemployment i have to claim it and it gets subtracted. i can see where a company would go bankrupt by paying employees to sit at home and collect money from them with nothing in return , wheres the profit in that ? seems to me like the union and the state of wisconsin had a little deal going and now the gigs up, what about all these other workers losing their jobs, what is the state going to do for them ? maybe the union could of put the sub pay on the table and agreed not to take it , during down time for change over , or shut downs , maybe then gm would have a chance at saving this plant and others, a little lower income is better then no imcome, i am not a gm hater, most of my family works there, every new vehicle we bought in the last 20 yrs has been gm , but at the same time im watching my friends and other family move out of this state because other companies are closing or laying off, concessions should of been made long ago by the union, you cant just blame gm for this, employees might not of liked the concessions, but alot of us have been living with those concessions our whole lives

It will be a sad Christmas for the Janesville area this year when G.M. closes it doors. Not only for it's workers but for the parts plants and other people the workers have helped in other years. If there is not a change in the White House in Nov., then I hate to see how people will make it on $7 - $10 wages an hour. Because that's what it is here in the Janesville area under the Bush years and you will see the same with McCain but you will be tax more with your health benefits.

RUSerious- the reason they didn't train monkeys was becasue of the crazy PETA nuts out there.
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Why am I am not happy for some? Why am I not happy that some people are covered? Because it is the ones that are "covered" that got the ones that aren't in this position in the first place.
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My heart breaks for the city and ther businesses that were built around GM. My heart breaks for the people who worked at GM because they did not have someone thinking long term and asking the questions like "How is a compny ever goning to continue to survive by paying out such out-of-balance compensation packages. The truth here is that every good Union story end in people losing their jobs with no real security. Eventually, the pot of money runs dry and what do you have left? Uneduacated people making way too much money, living beyond their means never being able to find a job that comes close to what they were making. That is the tragedy.
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Unions had their place many many years ago- when businesses tried to make kids and adults work 20 days with no pay. Boy, how the pendulewm has swing a differet direction!
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I don't think this has anything to do with gas prices either. Sure- it is an easy target and the prices are certainly higher than what we are used to. But what about the fact that these vehicles cost 40k to purchase? Give me a break! I resent having to pay 40k for avehicle that shyould cost 15k and have the other 25k go towards some lackey on a production line. All this talk about Golden Parachutes for executives? What about the Golden Hubcaps for the poor union workers.
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BillyRay, you wrote "be thankful that GM is doing everything in their power to become profitable again...that makes your pension that much more secure". I agrre with you but you're asking a lot. This is not the mindset of entitled union worker.

exresident: I'm curious, what do you mean by that, "Janesville was a fantasy to us." and where did you move to?

RUSerious-i think your screen name nails it. If more companies did have sub-pay benifits set up, they would be more likle to find themselves in the same place GM is now.

While this is truly sad news for the area, a couple of observations are in order here. One, GM should have started to off-load production from the monster SUVs to the smaller, Isuzu style vehicles long ago. Two, looking at present day gas prices, you have to wonder what spiked the prices last summer when we all started to abandon our big SUVs. I suspect the answer is speculation and not pure supply and demand. Three, there is still a market here and the sensible thing would be for GM to start migrating Janesville to smaller, hybrid production to beat the foreign competition here. Who knows where this economy is going right now? Lastly, use your vote to steer our country in the right direction.

Let's face this is a a challenging time for everyone. Whether you work at GM or not, if you live in the community you are affected. I believe what jp 53545 wrote in the blog. GM did bring alot of money into the community. People won't see it until they have to leave the community. Our family had to move out of Janesville because of the soon to be closing and/or idiling of the Janesville plant. Now that we moved away Janesville was a fantasy to us.

The plant will never build large SUV's again. Even if gas hits $2/gallon, the public has already changed their mindset and won't suddenly start buying ginormouse SUV's again, especially considering the recession we are in now.

That leaves retooling the plant for something else. Sorry folks, but with vehicle sales down 16 percent from last year, and next year expected to be worse, GM just doesn't need the old plant.

GM has only $21 billion in cash, but is burning through more than $1 billion a month. G.M. is trying to cut $10 billion in costs and raise $5 billion though the sale of assets like its Hummer brand.

For those of you who despise GM workers who will get Sub pay as well as UC-and question how and why they should be so "fortunate" (forget that they're losing their jobs), this is not a new concept-nor one which is something only those "greedy", "lazy" Janesville GM workers get. Think about it this way-those other companies failed to ensure that their own employees would have the same post-employment benefits. SUB pay means just that-Supplemental Unemployment Benefits....not Replacement Unemployment Benefits.
But doesn't it make more sense to wish ill on those getting more, those who might suffer less-rather than be glad that some local workers will have a better cushion, and wish the other companies had ensured their employees had the same? It really helps, doesn't it?
Stevev, why can't it be right? Why, please, do you want it to be a mistake-and that they really get less? HOW is it hurting you, me, or any of the others? HOW is it costing us?
And happypants-why do you suppose GM didn't train monkeys to do those jobs, then?

It may not be over for the GM workers, but it is definitely over for the suppliers in the area. Even if they retool you’re looking at a cold hard winter for alot of people because it takes several months to do so. The word IDLE may be good but it still ultimately has the same effect on alot of people!

Production stops at the plant, but payroll continues for 3 more years! Employees can stay home, relax, and wait for our politicians to get that new product they are so confident of. No worries.

I gotta admit I had tears in my eyes. People can talk about the high wages, how GM gave janesville the reputation of a blue collar town and all the rest of it but beyond that GM also brought a lot of money and wealth into Janesville that otherwise would never have come her, and that enabled us to afford good schools, beautiful parks, lovely neighborhoods, shopping the envy of a town twice the size, etc. The plant is a huge piece of the fabric of this town - they've made cars there since 1923. It's losing a piece of history and your roots. It had to come, we all knew that, but that doesn't change the fact that it's like losing one of the family.

3 years of at least 90% pay and benefits? That can't be right.

John Dohner Jr., UAW Local 95 stated:
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"The employees really feel let down," he said after this morning's meeting. "It's not the membership's fault.
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"It's not really anyone's fault, other than the people we've got running this country."
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This sounds like typical Unionized Brainwashing Propaganda. Hey, let's blame someone else for the situation we find ourselves in right now." Paying people $30/hour to tighten lug nuts on a vehicle? I can train a monkey to do that. The truth is that it is the Unions fault. Greed, greed greed. My hope is that it retools and opens up a non-union shop. That would be fantastic!

while the news of gm is bad and not good for the local economy , they are still sitting better then most people who have lost their job in this area recently ,what they have is time to prepare alot of other people who have been let go , laid off, or the company closed leave with no benefits or extra pay, and are forced to try to cope with only 26 weeks of unemployment, it make s you wonder why they recieve unemployment if gm is still giving them sub pay, anyone else would lose their unemployment ,

`Lee said GM officials will develop a plan to decommission the plant.`
Just in case you missed it the first time.
Kinda of like laying it out to pasture.

Come on people, wake up! IT IS OVER!!
The plant is closing, it will not be re-tooled. It will not be idle. Production will stop and everyone is losing their jobs for good. Move on. The plant is a dinosaur. The greed of the workers, UAW and GM are to blame. Let's face reality.

i hope GM stays in business in Janesville ! it would mean a very cold and hungry winter for most of us and we have already had plenty of them.

You are right on when you say "idle", that was a quote over the weekend. That GM was idling the production of the SUV line in Janesville, but they still have the package in Detroit that they are waiting an answer for. My fingers are crossed for everyone!!!

Hopefully GM will go along with the idea to retool the plant to build fuel-efficient and hybrid vehicles. Wouldn't that be a blessing on this city?

The key word is idle. Until we here directly from GM that it rejects proposals from Janesville for a new product, then idle means just that. Either way this isn't good news and it means, for at least some extended period, more people will be out of work.