Anyone see the news this morning? It was priceless. The big three were in front of the panel and one guy asked them all "To try and leave a good impression, do you think maybe you could have flown coach or maybe car pooled here rather than all fly on private jets?" Too funny.

momo ... thank you so much for clarifying the "meds" question. And by reading the rest of your post you clarified the reason for my feelings I stated in my previous post. Quote, "Trust in God and he will show you the way. Live life simple and get back to enjoying the little things in life."
Don't take this the wrong way, as we are both entitled to our opinions and beliefs, and as I respect your right to yours please respect my right to mine when I say ..... Holier than Thou attitude.

And, precisely why there needs to be extreme renovation of the Big 3, in order for them to remain in business. A bailout will only prolong the inevitable.

momof1 - the reason your friends who worked at GM and Lear thought that GM would never leave, is because their Union brainwashed them in to thinking that. That strategy is what they needed in order to force GM and Lear in to excessive labor contracts, and they needed their memberships support. If you thought that, of course you would try to milk the company for what you could. The Union (I have read some of their shop reports) pushes progaganda and rhetoric telling their membership that their job security is their right, and management can't take that away from them. This blind strategy was destined to fail, as was only as good as the health of the companies coffers. The Union contracts were 'houses built on a sand foundation', and now the tide has come in. The Union wants to deflect blame and say it is the fault of the economy. Don't get me wrong, GM management is as much to blame for getting caught with not enough product to support the fuel milage needs. However, they had to rely on the profit generating SUV's to offset the expensive labor contracts. It is a precarious circle.

there are no meds here. Just calling it as I see it. I have watched friends that worked at Lear/GM spend spend spend, because they have to shop shop shop, all because they "deserve" it. I spoke to one friend and said, "save for a rainy day, you never know when that will be here" Oh, but we work for GM, we will be fine, they will never close. Guess what? Reality has slapped them in their face. It happens. Trust in God and he will show you the way. Live life simple and get back to enjoying the little things in life.
......
ms-sassy: what you say is very true, and rings true for a lot of people. It is going to take a lot to save this nation, and I don't think that people are prepared for it. Emotionally, physically or spiritually.

momo... I try to read these posts with an open mind but reading your posts I can't help but to wonder what meds you could be on to make you sound so out of touch, yet still come across with an air of lucid superiority. Your naiveté astounds me.

I have been saying that life is very difficult for the working poor for many years...this is just a new twist. Now life is very difficult for the middle class. I feel bad, but those of you who claim that working poor who have turned to "government" (via housing assistance, food stamps, etc) are lazy and spend all their money on beer and cigarettes are the same ones looking for government bailout. It doesn't feel so nice to be called a hardship on social service agencies, NOW, does it? I'm angry at GM. GM has made my cost of living too high and now they are looking for help from ME, a taxpayer, who already struggles because I don't make the money that GM pays out in high wages.

couple of ex's that he pays child support to? hmmmm, that says it all. The core of America's family structure is gone. It is very sad.

and how many more unemployed will there be when no one has cell phones, cable, internet and so on and so on? The Amish live down the street, not here.

momof1, It's good that you have 'prepared' for the downfall of america. My husband and I do not have 'material' objects either. My car is a beater 125,000 miles, our house is a 3 bedroom built in the 70's, which is not paid for. The couple of grand a month that is paid to my husbands exs is paying for the houses they live in with their mothers. So with GM going out it doesn't just hurt us, it hurts 2 other families also. So one job hurts 3 families, times that by several hundred thousand auto industry workers. If the big 3 go so do all the suppliers, transporters, and so on. What happens when your taxes get so high due to all the unemployed, that you can no longer afford to pay them? Sell your house after all your savings are gone? It won't be worth crap, even if you can find a buyer. Your not getting the big picture.

msleo. when that happens, that is when we will all be required to go back to the basics. Shut off the cable, turn off the cell phones, shut off the internet, quit eating out, live off the land by hunting/fishing/gardening, sew clothes instead of buying name brands. It can be done. The people of this world have gotten in the mindset that they deserve to have whatever they want, no matter if they can afford it or not. Until that mindset goes back to the basics, this economy will continue to struggle. It's time to unplug and start spending quality time with our families and learning how we will survive the next 10 years.

Almeg-"Mom's stay home with kids with husbands earning wages, there would be low to no divorce rate," That is what I said. Please, if you are going to quote me, please be accurate. And I couldn't tell you right now what a good supporting wage is. It depends on the size of the family. I would say for me, without the need for fancy cars and credit cards, and all the extras (cell phones, video games, cable, because really we have lived without them) $1500 would probably be sufficient. But you see, I live in a house that is paid for, because I chose my destiny and decided not to let the worldly things run my life. My child has everything he wants. But guess what, when the world crumbles, we will be just fine. It may not be easy, but we will be fine.

yep

Msleo, is your husband willing to take a paycut to save his job?

If they can bailout stupid banks for loaning money to people who can't pay it back, why not the likes of GM? My husband works at GM, he's in skilled trades, he works hard and comes home tired. He pays a chunk in child support so we don't live high on the hog, but the kids are supported. What happens if these companies go belly up? Thousands of people will no longer be able to support their families. What will happen to taxes when you have a couple hundred thousand people unemployed? My husband may have complained about having to pay so much in support, but now he's complaining about not being able to.

Oh where to start..... The big three are in trouble: Fact. So where does the fault lie? The list is long and distinguished. There is a lot of blame to go around. The big three themselves GM was way ahead of the game years ago when they developed and scrapped the EV1(the first ever all electric vehicle), and taking advantage of trade/import regulations allowing the deportation of american jobs. The government and its policies on foreign trade and wall street deregulation. Wall street and its big wigs for manipulating the housing market and loan policies to their advantage. The unions for negotiating for a piece of the proverbial pie for their membership. And let's not forget the final piece of the puzzle .... YOU and I ... yes america we put up with it and bought those cheap foreign products, shopped at Walmart, bought the houses the lending institutions told us we could afford, elected officials that we knew were in the pockets of big oil and other companies. The blame game is endless. The question is, what do we do about it. Sorry, men and women much smarter than I will have to figure this out. I do however believe that individual involvement is going to be important. Let's get smart and involved america. Let's get back to a government of the people, by the people and for the people.

just read on the net.......can't remember where, that one of the big "3" just gave their top exc's million dollar bonuses......go figure.........and they want money to keep afloat?????? I think NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!
STAY SAFE!!

momof1- You think autoworkers are over paid, yet you state, if we had good paying jobs,moms could stay home...etc. What would you consider a good, family supporting "husband wage" to be?

Darius, I couldn't agree more!!!!! When people stop supporting the companies that manufacture and import only overseas stuff, then and only then, will we see more american jobs.

almeg, why so extreme. Did I ever mention minimum wage? Nope, I didn't. yes, i think workers are overpaid, highly overpaid. So are the executives. There needs to be severe reform in the auto industry in order for it to survive. I do understand economics and how they work. Just because I have a different opinion, does not mean I am ignorant. I doubt very highly that the auto industry would lower their price for cars, and that alone is why the average middle income american family will not buy a new car. Things need to change or this world as we know it will come crashing down around us faster than you will have time to think about it.

I am not a slave to the government. What country do you live in? When you put all your eggs in one basket (auto industry) you are asking for trouble. It will be good to see them go down. They need to restructure and reorganize and start practicing business ethically. A lot of companies are in the same boat. I am not a slave to the government and neither are you, if you choose not to be. But then again, you might be a slave to the government, because you think that the government should bail us and the auto industry out of what happened. I say, let's get back to the way it was. Mom's stay home with kids with husbands earning wages, there would be low to no divorce rate, and we would be hunting/fishing/gardening for food. Life really would be a lot easier than relying on everyone else to pay your way. People need to stop relying on others and take care of themselves, and quit worrying so much about what they think they have to have, and worry about their family, and what they need.

woodsman...and we have American companies outsourcing their labor to foreign countries for pennies on the dollar, making tremendous profits and bringing the products they produce back into this country and guess who's buying those products??.....the same workers who have had their jobs cut by these companies! The companies have no interest in passing on some of that savings back to the American consumers either! They'd rather watch them run up their credit cards and use every last piece of credit they have just for the almighty dollar! It's not the companies faults.....it's OUR fault for giving in to these thugs! If our society wasn't so wrapped in the "instant gratification" mentality, we'd have something to fight back with against these companies. Our mainstream consumers are the end product of the corportate driven media that's been slowly brainwashing our generations over the years. People are getting the long awaited wake up call right now.

momof1-Do you really believe the automakers are in this crisis because they overpaid their workers? Do you really believe if they paid minimum wage they would lower the prices? And I don't know anyone that would work in an auto factory for minimum wage for any length of time. Their turnover rate would be so high they would have to install revolving doors. No quality there! And if we let them "start over" as you suggest, who would want to buy a car from a bankrupt auto company? I don't think you understand economics at all.

The government and the FREE terriff had nothing to do with it,right? The government has been trying to put them out of business for years. It was a pretty bloody battle to get this union in this country. The government hates them because it makes them look bad,when the auto industry gives a person a decent pay to raise a family,when the government wants all the little people to stay in their place in society. Kinda like we the little people are SLAVES to the government,maybe??

oh, and Woodsman. Japan did not TAKE any U.S. jobs away. They were GIVEN away by AMERICAN companies. Let's put the blame where it belongs. The BIG 3 are not "American Made" vehicles. They are "American Assembled"

woodsman;
If it is a quote, who said it? I have never heard it. I wasn't around for WWII, only studied it. That doesn't mean that I don't understand economics and they way things are right now in our country. I really don't see how us winning WWII has anything to do with our current state of affairs? Maybe, in my opinion only, if our country would worry about itself for once, instead of trying to be the world police, things would be better for us.

Personally, and this is coming from a former UAW worker, I think they will go belly up regardless. It would only take about a years (at the current loss rates) for GM, Ford, and Chrysler to burn through that 25 billion. The only reason I would favor bailing the big three out is for security reasons. We HAVE to keep some large scale manufacturing base in America. During World War 2 many of the auto plants were switched over to produce war planes and other war related items. With the big three gone we'd have no way to switch over to a war footing should that day come. This is something most people don't generally think about, but is something our country should always be prepared for.

momof1: You sound like your pretty young to NOT know the quote i've spoken. I'm talking about JAPAN WAR,you know WWII. This is the country that lost the war "BUT" are making a living off america now.They have taken millions of americans jobs away,put their products in our country,and taken our money back home as well. That is where the saying comes from. K!

The big wigs at GM got their bonus. I'm sorry, but if your company is not doing too well, you just don't give out bonuses!

Yes, their CEO should have gotten the axe along time ago. And about GM employees making too much money, I DON'T THINK SO! It shows that a person should be making more than $17 dollars or more an hour to meet with the cost of living these days. But everything keeps going up in price but our salary.

I am beyond feeling sorry for GM. They are completely lost beyond belief and the way they handle business and logic makes it hard to justify giving them anything. If times are so tough, could someone please explain to me why they are running ads for the HUMMER during National televised football games that thousands of people are watching? Are you kidding me! Can you pick a more non-practical, gas hog of a vehicle to advertise when times are tough? This is the marketing direction you think is going to help sales? Wow. Their CEO should have gotten the ax a long time ago.

I dont understand why this is so confusing for everyone. The automakers paid their employees too much, therefore they had to overprice their product. The only way that anyone could afford a new vehicle was to finance it. Guess what, it is getting harder and harder for people to get credit. The government should make sure that if they do give the automakers the loans that they need, they will be able to repay the loan. The way to do that is to make sure they have a "marketable product" that people can actually afford to buy. That all comes back to NOT overpaying their workers........WHAT A CONCEPT!!! Maybe the best thing for the auto industry is to "start over".......

Woodsman:

Okay. hmmm. I wouldn't mind living life more simple with the way things used to be. If things were like they were when horses and buggys were the best mode of transportation, I wouldn't need to be working, I would be home taking care of my children.

What war are we winning? The one in Iraq where we are wasting our countries money, that could be spent here on our own people????? That war?

Other countries do laugh at us, it is hard sometimes for me not to laugh at how foolish some people spend money they don't have and live on credit. Because they HAVE to have something, and that something HAS to be better than their friends/neighbors something, and by God they should have that something RIGHT NOW.
That, my friend is why this country is in the mess it is in right now.

Give them a bailout, but attach stipulations. Stipulate they move all of their out of country suppliers back in to the U.S. Stipluate that none of the parts on the vehicle are made outside of North America. This would create jobs back in the U.S., make the autos truely "American Made", and generate excitement and jobs when you buy that vehicle. This would be no different than stipulations they put on TIF money. Give them what they want for money, but put logical, American stipulations to the money! Think of the trickle down effect of that one stipulation. Construction jobs, tooling jobs, assembly jobs, management jobs, etc. Give them a modest interest rate, and payback period, given they complete the stipulation within 2 years. That is not unreasonable.

First of all, the Big Three are not asking for a "bailout". They are asking for LOAN! The auto industry relies on credit, which has all but been frozen through traditional channels. If we let the Big Three fail, we are looking at a lost tax revenue of $156 billion over 3 years. 1 in 10 jobs depend on U.S. automakers. Nearly 3 million jobs are at risk. Do we really want that to happen?

If it wasn't for the car companies,(one of the greatest inventions) you would've went through a few horses & buggies by now in your life,right,not to mention the shoes you would've wore out,if you had a good enough job to buy some. It all keeps coming down to,we may have won the war,but these other countries keep laughing all the way to the bank!!

Maybe government should print mo money.

I for one, do not feel I need to be "indebted" to the auto industry. HA. That makes me laugh. Indebted....to GM? to Ford? to Chrysler? ha ha.... what on earth for? So they can pay their workers ridiculous wages and benefits with MY tax money? AFTER I have to PAY a LARGE amount of MY MONEY for an over priced American Made (well, not 100% American made) car???? The over priced car that pays their wages?? They did it to themselves. I have no sympathy.

The way i see it,and ALL AMERICANS should see it as,WE ALL should be indebted to the automobile industry in this country for ever. Should we let them go under,to never have an american car company,and rely on foreign countries to supply the american people with vehicles? or should we go back to the horse & buggy. These companies may have had their hard times,but who hasn't! If we as an america let our back bones of this country be lost to other countries,then we will loose our independence as a country. Besides auto industry not doing good,wall street, How about the GOVERNMENT,they have wasted our money for years,and still do. They have spent money that they don't have,to many people dipping in the kitty,like their is NO bottom. I do think the government needs a serious overhaul,but WE still keep on bailing the government out. Why not let the GOVERNMENT fall on it's face too,then they to can start over and TRY to make a better government for the people,like it is suppose to be run in the first place.

These guys will take the money, spend it and squirrel it away in foreign bank accounts and then declare bankruptcy.

No more bailouts. No more trickle down economics. It will not work in the depression we are entering. Only trickle up economics will work. The middle class consumers are bankrupt. Their home values have dropped, millions are losing their jobs, millions are without health insurance, they are maxed out on credit and they have lost trillions in value in their investments. Create good jobs for the middle class, give them health insurance, provide a safety net and then and only then will the economy turn around. Don't give billions to the failed auto industry. It would be like loading truckloads of money on the TITANIC. The money will end up doing as much good as if it were at the bottom of the north Atlantic.

Has everyone had his or her head buried in the sand the last few months? We are entering a depression just like we did in the 1930's. The government (taxpayers) don't have enough money to keep the economy floating. Millions have already lost jobs and millions more will follow. There is no sense in putting good money after bad. Wasn't deregulation of utilities, banking and insurance just wonderful! Now every American, government agency and corporation must suffer. The sooner we re-regulate, the sooner we demand transparency in finance and government, the sooner we demand accountability from politicians and the boards that govern publicly traded companies then the sooner we will get back to a solid middle class. Mark my words. No bailout will prevent what is to come - the continued loss of millions of middle class jobs. We already gave Henry Paulson and the Bush administration nearly a trillion dollars to stave off economic disaster yet disaster is just what we have. There is no quick fix to this mess. You cannot solve this mess by throwing "bailout" money around. The middle class that keeps the economy going is bankrupt. Only when the middle class have good jobs and are able to invest in growing assets instead of losing assets will the economy turn around. In this disaster only trickle up economics will work not trickle down economics. Nobody seems to realize that yet.